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Do you know why the FFXI community was > WoW? Grouping.Follow

#52 Sep 06 2009 at 3:32 AM Rating: Decent
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It's business, plain and simple. They aren't making these games for you, or me, or anyone else who plays them.


Which is what's wrong with the industry nowadays, sadly. I mean, it's only normal that a company would be out there to make money, but only focusing on that aspect will actually hurt the company more than help it (to make money).

I also don't think that the developer's of the game should make them just for the purpose of making money. The company, yes, but not the artists working there, imo.
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#53 Sep 06 2009 at 3:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
It's business, plain and simple. They aren't making these games for you, or me, or anyone else who plays them.


Which is what's wrong with the industry nowadays, sadly. I mean, it's only normal that a company would be out there to make money, but only focusing on that aspect will actually hurt the company more than help it (to make money).

I also don't think that the developer's of the game should make them just for the purpose of making money. The company, yes, but not the artists working there, imo.
You can't fault the artist for doing what the boss tells him, though. Everyone's gotta make a living somehow.


Hey look, we're back to money again.


Not being confrontational by the way, it's just the way the world is, man. You learn to accept is as you get older. Smiley: frown

Edited, Sep 6th 2009 7:39am by Zackary
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#54 Sep 06 2009 at 3:40 AM Rating: Decent
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You can't fault the artist for doing what the boss tells him, though. Everyone's gotta make a living somehow.


If the boss was good at his job he'd realize that letting the artist do what he wants might actually result in more profit.. It's more risky, but there's the potential for much more profit as well..

But when the costs of making a game go up, this kind of thing happens a lot less.. which isn't really good for the industry in the end. Can't blame them, but like I said, it's not really a good thing.

I think that Tanaka gives the dev team lot of freedom when making the game. He has my respects for that. I think this time it might yield positive results as well. We'll see.

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Not being confrontational by the way, it's just the way the world is, man. You learn to accept is as you get older.


Yeah, I know. It's the reason why I play less and less nowadays. One can always hope for a change though ._.




Edited, Sep 6th 2009 11:41am by Hyanmen
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#55 Sep 06 2009 at 4:41 AM Rating: Good
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Why do you think most of them only do it for the gilz? Probably most of the people working on making games are gamers themselves and are really interested in what they do...
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#56 Sep 06 2009 at 5:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Also because they haven't experienced things they may like more than what they have currently.

For example, a person who thinks that instant gratification is the best way to reward players.. But since he has never tried a system where you actually have to work for your rewards, he can't know if he liked that kind of system better than the current one.

I think it's the dev's role to show the players these kind of things.. but it's not possible if the dev's listen to the players. That's why I don't think the way Blizzard does things is the better way either. The less risky way when it comes to pleasing customers, yes, but overall I would say that not listening can be even better sometimes.


It shouldn't be the role of game developers to do the video game equivalent of forcing a player to try new vegetables. What you're saying sounds like when action games shoehorn a driving level or a stealth level into an until-then entertaining platformer or shooter. There's usually no reason for it, and it just irritates people who weren't interested in that style of game.

The only way to do what you suggest is by starting from scratch with a new game. Ignoring your established customers in pursuit of "artistic vision" is a recipe for losing those customers more often than not.
#57 Sep 06 2009 at 5:56 AM Rating: Default
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Also, with FFXI most players only have 1 character for all their jobs.

In WoW if you wanted to explore all the classes you had like 10 different characters.

There's not much accountability for your douchieness. Even without forced grouping, you'll see a lot less of it with a singular ingame name. I believe FFXIV is shaping up to have that too.
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#58 Sep 06 2009 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
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It shouldn't be the role of game developers to do the video game equivalent of forcing a player to try new vegetables. What you're saying sounds like when action games shoehorn a driving level or a stealth level into an until-then entertaining platformer or shooter. There's usually no reason for it, and it just irritates people who weren't interested in that style of game.


Forcing? Huh?

I'm sorry if what I said made it sound like developers should implement useless features to their games. The features should stay in the boundaries of the game's genre, obviously. Sidetracking or trying to make a game of all genres at once is completely out of subject to what I was trying to say.

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The only way to do what you suggest is by starting from scratch with a new game. Ignoring your established customers in pursuit of "artistic vision" is a recipe for losing those customers more often than not.


Well, Blizzard can't stop now since they already started implementing what the players 'want'. SE doesn't have this problem since the game isn't even out yet.

If those customers like the artistic vision of the developer more than what they thought they liked, then they won't leave the game (or the serie).

Who would have wanted Metal Gear Solid 3 to be based on the cold war and the 60's instead of continuing the story of Snake (and Raiden)? Not many, but mr. Kojima went against the fan's wishes and created the game as it is now anyway, which resulted in lots of fans saying that the 3rd part of the series is actually the best one of them.

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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#59 Sep 06 2009 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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If the boss was good at his job he'd realize that letting the artist do what he wants might actually result in more profit.. It's more risky, but there's the potential for much more profit as well..

But when the costs of making a game go up, this kind of thing happens a lot less.. which isn't really good for the industry in the end. Can't blame them, but like I said, it's not really a good thing.

I think that Tanaka gives the dev team lot of freedom when making the game. He has my respects for that. I think this time it might yield positive results as well. We'll see.


Everyone has a boss or someone to answer to, even bosses.

It is a fact of life man, people have families to support. Taking risks is not a valid option once you hit a certain point in your life - especially when thoses risks can be career ending.
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#60 Sep 06 2009 at 7:58 PM Rating: Default
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This has little to do with the OP, and more to do with a quote I saw and an argument being made here that WoW is not an 'entry level' MMO, and is comparable with the rest of MMOs on its complexity.

(BTW I think 'gateway MMO' is probably a better term than 'entry level')

Quote:

PS: What's "entry-level" about WoW? It's a more casual game in general, sure, but if you're serious about endgame content and all that crap, it's not different from XI at all. It's a lot more trial-and-errorish, but by no means is it any more friendly.


Quote:
It's a more casual game in general
And that is why it is considered an 'entry level' game by alot of older MMO players. The MAJORITY of the game is easy to learn, easy to play, and doesn't present much challenge while still being enjoyable. Endgame is a small part of the game. (Just think about how many actually cleared Black Temple in BC pre-nerfs).

It's 'entry-level' exactly because it is casual friendly, and is very easy to start up and play. It also encourages players who either don't have the skill or the time for endgame to create a new character and play the game all over again. Having one class per character and 2 tradeskills gives the player a good reason to just skip the endgame and just go back to enjoying casual game play as a new level 1. The 2 factions also give gamers a great reason to just forget about endgame and enjoy the casual game play from a different side of the struggle. It isn't a bad thing, but it certainly makes the game 'entry-level' when compared to older MMOs like Ultima Online or Runescape or FFXIV. The mechanics are easier, the battles are easier, the death penalty is less severe, and the gear is constantly being overwritten and changed so that endgame exists only for those who dedicate themselves to experiencing it. The endgame itself is not a true 'endgame' it is just a temporary placeholder until the next patch or expansion is released and a new endgame is introduced.

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if you're serious about endgame content and all that crap, it's not different from XI at all. It's a lot more trial-and-errorish, but by no means is it any more friendly.


I agree with you, WoW has a difficult endgame, and it is not any more friendly than XI or other MMOs. The REST of WOW is considerably easier and more friendly than any other MMO though.

WoW is THE 'gateway MMO'. It is the #1 attracter of new players to the genre, and it is the 'entry level' of learning how the genre works, and is hands-down the best at teaching new gamers the basics of massive multiplayer online.

Now that people know how to play MMOs, I hope the next generation does less to cater towards learning (ala WoW) and more towards expanding the challenge and excitement.


EDIT: This entire post is in the context of PvE, as PvP seems to be irrelevant to the discussion of FFXIV. The PVP in WoW at low levels and midgame makes the entire experience throughout considerably more challenging.


Edited, Sep 7th 2009 12:06am by Shazaamemt
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#61 Sep 07 2009 at 2:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Now that people know how to play MMOs, I hope the next generation does less to cater towards learning (ala WoW) and more towards expanding the challenge and excitement.
You just spent an entire post lamenting on how well WoW appealed to both casual gamers and hardcore games, then wrap it up by saying this? I don't get the point you're trying to make.
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#62 Sep 07 2009 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
I think the accompishments in FFXI are more rewarding than a more solo-oriented game. I can't imagine the feeling of my first run through Sea, being easily reproduced in a game like WoW. I think that gives FFXI a better community in general. Veterans usually take some convincing to help others with Promathia missions and such, but when when you watch your sea-noobs running around blue eyed, while you're telling them to watch out for sharks and UFO's...

Idk, I guess I don't really understand why people cry for soloability in an MMO. lfp for hours sucks, but if you're just standing around in a city, sitting in your chair with your arms crossed watching a clock, you're doin it wrong anyways. I enjoy FFXII, I'd rather go play that than see FFXI/FFXIV move towards a heavy solo-play environment.

Like others have said, WoW players on average probably arnt any less nice, but like I brush off beggars on the street, I've never been there, I have no empathy for them. I don't think it has anything to do with PvP vs PvE environments, just empathy and a sense of karma.
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#63 Sep 07 2009 at 9:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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One things I really dislike about the FF11 community is its elitist contemptment to casual players. All MMO have both casual and hardcore players. Any responsible MMO should cater to both type of players.

People ask why FF11 wasnt as successful ? Because FF11 basically told all the casual players to become hardcore or GTFO. Casual players make over half of a MMO player base. And when you ostracize then the effect would be apparent. I am certainly not saying its impossible to be a casual player in FF11, but the game mechanics and the community as a whole isnt conducive to a casual player in the slightest.

Edited, Sep 7th 2009 1:06pm by Mitsuuko
#64 Sep 07 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I keep hearing Casual vs Hardcore but what exactly is casual and hardcore? How would you define it?

I think people use the term casaul not as time but more of pick up and play. They want to just log in and get down to business without have to wait on anything. Usually this means to gain xp for leveling up.

Personally I think of casual as a time frame say 1 to 4 hours and hardcore as a 5+ hours. In this regard I viewed FFXI as casual friendly, atleast in my experience. Granted there were days were I would be just running around town LFG for hours on end and it was frustating but in my whole experience of 5+ years I didn't spend alot of time LFG. With great LS I was able to achieve most of what the game had to offer beside a mad rush to LV 75. Good friends I made through FFXI's forced group gameplay, made it possible to set up static parties and level more than one job to 75. Honestly FFXI has alot of feature most players don't even know about.

But the question remains, how do you define Casual and Hardcore play?
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#65 Sep 07 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Suppose everyone view on it would be different. But generally I would say Casual is 2-3Hr a few times a week. That would be near impossible to do much in FF11. I mean back in the day before level sync you be happy if you even found a party in the time frame of 3 hours.

EDIT: As Reno pointed out below, in WoW you can easily get solid endgame gear in a matter of days. Where in FF its months...and even years



Edited, Sep 7th 2009 2:09pm by Mitsuuko
#66 Sep 07 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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Perhaps 90% of humans are selfish bastards whom will only be considerate if it will bring them closer to their goal. FFXI and WoW alike.
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#67 Sep 07 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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how do you define Casual and Hardcore play?


Ding! 75WAR! Time to get your hands on some byakko's haidate, and a K's osode! In FFXI, thats a big commitment. I wont even go into relic weapons and salvage gear. In WoW, you get to 80, and can put your flag up for an instance, and if you're lucky, get good gear in very little time.

Of course, my opinion is biased, this is just an example.
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#68 Sep 07 2009 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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WoW is definitely more casual friendly. You can solo to cap and yes, you can play for a 2-3 hours and generally get something done.

Its possible to do the same in XI after you've been playing for a while. I can't play either game much atm because of school; so I can log on XI for 2-3 hours, do an event w/ my LS or level with a friend, or do something short like a bcnm/assault/limbus/etc.

However, I would not agree that WoW has less elitists, at all.


In XI, my first god fight was as a lv 68blm/rdm. My whm sub was underleveled and I had appropriate, but cheap gear. I was a huge nub; but a ls was willing to explain why I was a nub; and then help me become less of a nub. I won zmitts at lv 69. Back in the day, that was pretty huge. I got to level whm sub and I eventually got to be not that great a nub. I do have good gear for my mnk and blm atm; but I got it because I was part of good linkshells -- and I still am.

In WoW, my first 'endgame', if you can call it that, instance was HoL at lv 79 shammy. Yes, I am a WoW noob, it was my first char to 79, I got it there solo playing very casually. As a result, I didn't know a lot; the invite I got was blind, I wasn't even lfg for it. I got downright ridiculed for doing 1k dps. Nobody was willing to tell me what I was doing wrong in gear/talents/ or even in general. I was still trying to figure out how the heck do you get the number '1k dps'; and eventually some interwebz research got me to the recount addon. One guy accused me of buying the character when I said I got to 79 playing solo and not grouping.

XI certainly has elitists. However, I've encountered more elitism in WoW than XI; with things like armory and recount practically defining the game.


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#69 Sep 07 2009 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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I keep hearing Casual vs Hardcore but what exactly is casual and hardcore? How would you define it?

I think people use the term casaul not as time but more of pick up and play. They want to just log in and get down to business without have to wait on anything. Usually this means to gain xp for leveling up.

Personally I think of casual as a time frame say 1 to 4 hours and hardcore as a 5+ hours.


I think casual is less game time in general but the key point is the ability to leave at anytime as well as accessibility- not always volumes of time.

By this i mean, as a casual player i can play for anywhere between 1-3 hours on a good night. Note: 1-3. That means that after an hour I may have to leave unexpectedly.

Likewise, as a casual player often times i cannot make scheduled raid times. Mon through thurs 7-11 pm raid times? Not really.

A casual player can at times play more than a hardcore player. It is just that they cannot meet the time frames or ranges that a hardcore player can.

But that is how i define hardcore and casual. A hardcore person is someone who can commit to the time frames needed to experience endgame content. A casual person is someone who has to leave spordaically for rl issues and thus cannot regularly make endgame content.

FFXI and WoW to me are not casual games. Sure, leveling in WoW is casual, but seriously, leveling is a small part of that game. You can level all you want in that game and it accomplishes very little. So while it is not as hardcore as ffxi, it is definitely not a casual game (having boe epics and running heroics is really only scratching the surface of the game as well as putting you in a very disadvantaged stature compared to others who do other things like raid or pvp competitively.

I think people in ffxi have a hard time relating to this because leveling in ffxi is a very core mechanic to the game (through multiple jobs and such).
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#70 Sep 07 2009 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Renowaikk, Pie Eating Champion wrote:
Quote:
how do you define Casual and Hardcore play?


Ding! 75WAR! Time to get your hands on some byakko's haidate, and a K's osode! In FFXI, thats a big commitment. I wont even go into relic weapons and salvage gear. In WoW, you get to 80, and can put your flag up for an instance, and if you're lucky, get good gear in very little time.

Of course, my opinion is biased, this is just an example.
Yeah, biased and wrong, but whatever.
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#71 Sep 07 2009 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Ding! 75WAR! Time to get your hands on some byakko's haidate, and a K's osode! In FFXI, thats a big commitment. I wont even go into relic weapons and salvage gear. In WoW, you get to 80, and can put your flag up for an instance, and if you're lucky, get good gear in very little time.


This is interesting comment to me, mainly because it deals with achievement in MMORPGs.

When I played WoW and got my Death Knight to 80 I started to do the quick instance for my gear. With in a month I had all the class specific purple armor except the 8+ hour dungeon runs. I really didn't have a since of accomplishment. On the other hand when I got my gear from assault, that special drop, or even enough gil to by the item from the AH, it gave me a sense of satifaction. Guess I felt my hard work paid off more in FFXI than in WoW.



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#72 Sep 07 2009 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Casual= Logging on/playing whenever he feels to and have something to do/availability of progressing with his character w/o the feeling he has to do something by force to progress.

Hardcore=Logs on/plays whenever its needed and no matter how long it takes to progress with his character.

Progressing in my term not only defines lvling/skilling but progressing in endgame as well.

The thing thats really going wrong with WoW atm is, Blizzard is not catering the "casual" player, but the "dumb" player. Blizzards defintion of the "casual" player is "low skill" players. Blizzard wants Raids to kill a Boss even when half of the raid has no clue what they're doing, I DEFINETELY don't want to see that in FFXIV, or else I will quit pretty fast...just as I quit WoW.

In terms of maturity in WoW+FFXI. WoW has the larger playersbase, therefore more "dumbasses" but in a percentage statistics, both would be equal I guess.

PS: Many "skillful" players prefer playing on PvP Servers in WoW, if you play WoW you know why.
#73 Sep 07 2009 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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When I played WoW and got my Death Knight to 80 I started to do the quick instance for my gear. With in a month I had all the class specific purple armor except the 8+ hour dungeon runs. I really didn't have a since of accomplishment. On the other hand when I got my gear from assault, that special drop, or even enough gil to by the item from the AH, it gave me a sense of satifaction. Guess I felt my hard work paid off more in FFXI than in WoW.


Why? Not to be generalistic but I wonder about things when people say this stuff.

Personally, when i spent 10 hours camping the O-bow on my ranger back in the day... when i got it i felt good. Looking back i think it was more the conclusion of the camping than the actual weapon that made me feel good. That feeling shortly left me and all i was left with was a "why did i spend that much time trying to get this?".

After that, gear has never really been an accomplishment. Gear comes and goes, is nearly always replaced. Gear is simply a means to an end in these games.

To me, the best sense of accomplishment that i can get out of a game now can be summed up as the hardmode achievements in wow. Getting the server first "Undying" title with my small close knit guild was excitement that did not leave me with any bitter after taste and still to this day that is my prefered title.

Which brings me to this post:

Quote:
The thing thats really going wrong with WoW atm is, Blizzard is not catering the "casual" player, but the "dumb" player. Blizzards defintion of the "casual" player is "low skill" players. Blizzard wants Raids to kill a Boss even when half of the raid has no clue what they're doing, I DEFINETELY don't want to see that in FFXIV, or else I will quit pretty fast...just as I quit WoW


I like where they are going with the game now. You have content that is challenging, but not unaccessable to most people. These people are rewarded with decent gear. The hard modes are the more challenging versions of the content which are doable by only very skilled groups. These reward better gear.

Basically, it rewards skill with better items and still gives content that the entire playerbase can see if they so choose. Much better than designing content that only 10% of the playerbase can ever see.
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#74 Sep 08 2009 at 7:12 AM Rating: Default
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Yeah, thats the idea of Blizzard behind "Normal-Modes" and "Hard-Modes"...but in the end the Normal Modes are not for casuals, but for low skilled people.

I don't think WoW content should be on the level it was with Sunwell(although I had the most fun in WoW ever clearing BT and Sunwell...my favorite instances)...but other than that, it shouldn't be as trivial as Naxx 80 and the Colloseum is now.
Colloseum HMs are all beaten now in the first ID...sure it was by one of the most skilled people playing...but on the other hand...defeating Mimiron HM, Freya HM etc took people a few weeks, while Colloseum took them 1 week, most not even having T9 4piece set bonus.

Sure "casuals" will not get to see Anub'arak in HM anytime soon, or probably at all...but the problem is Anub'arak on NM is a complete joke even for casuals, the only ones having problem with it are players with no skill. That is what I mean, Blizzard made content not available for everyone, but for every dumb idiot whos to dumb to play his class. I don't expect any player to do theorycraft or be the top Tank/DD/Healer of the server, but basic understandment of the class is enough, which many lack. In FFXI those people were completely left out...which is not good either...but other than that FFXI weren't rewarding them like WoW does now. I am not a cookie-cutter by any mean, I just simply expect people to play their class with common sense. WoW is not catering people with common sense, only those who are to dumb to learn how to play their class. Ulduar went into the right direction. It was still a little bit to hard for casuals, I agree with that, not because the encounters were challenging(which they were not), but the gear requirements on the first few IDs were a bit too high for casuals. So some nerfs were viable, others were not needed, but still all in all Ulduar was ok.

All I want is something like that not happening in FFXIV. I agree that casuals need to be taken care of as well as hardcore players, but ONLY casuals, not dumb idiots.
#75 Sep 08 2009 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would disagree that we should disregard less skilled players. Just like we should develop content for casual players, we should also hope for content that doesnt require a ton of skill and practice or perhaps require a myriad of different type of skill.

As a game as a whole, I would say FF11 had very little challenge for me and took little skill to do most things. Also think its silly to bash WoW for rewarding "low-skill players" yet FF11 nerfed alot of their endgame which equates the same as rewarding low skilled players who couldnt clear it any other way.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 1:41pm by Mitsuuko
#76 Sep 08 2009 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, thats the idea of Blizzard behind "Normal-Modes" and "Hard-Modes"...but in the end the Normal Modes are not for casuals, but for low skilled people.


See, here is my problem with your statement. If Normal-modes are for unskilled people and hard modes are for skilled people... you pretty much put skill into a "you have it or you don't" (i think binary would be the operable term, maybe digital?... w/e) catagory and this is simply not true.

There are varying levels of skill, for generalization sake, you can be terrible, bad, below average, average, above average, good, great. There are obviously better scales, but this one is just to show that "skilled / unskilled" is a horrible system to use.

Is Naxx easy? Yes - it is afterall considered an entry level raid (which has been stated numerous times by blizzard. And this is even neglecting to mention the fact that the instance has technically been around for 3 years :P). Does that mean that a terrible player can run it? Certainly not. If the group is terrible, they will never make it. If the player is terrible chances are their group will kick them.

Do you know why i say that normal modes are for casuals? Because they do not require hours of farming for gear / items to be able to run well. They do not require an elitist guild to be able to clear. Are those elitist guilds often more skilled than casual guilds? Sometimes. Like i said before - my close knit guild was a casual raiding guild and we had server firsts and were considered the best 10 man guild on the server. And all we did was raid 1-2 nights a week for 2 hours a shot.

Quote:
That is what I mean, Blizzard made content not available for everyone, but for every dumb idiot whos to dumb to play his class. I don't expect any player to do theorycraft or be the top Tank/DD/Healer of the server, but basic understandment of the class is enough, which many lack.


Simply take a look at the link i post:
http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/us/fizzcrank

It is a realm progress list - showing the guilds who have completed various raids and how far they are in each. Look at the fact that there are only 2-3 guilds for each catagory who have completed all the raids in that catagory... out of easily 50+.

Yeah, normal modes are not for unskilled players but for average players and average / casual guilds. A craptastic guild / player will never see that content. Bad guilds will never clear content, bad players will never get into good guilds (or at least, not stay for long before being booted).

Edit:

One thing i will agree with is that the original VoA was made to be pugged, which means it is redonkulously easy. That made for idiots running it. A side effect of this is that VoA drops really nice gear and you can have some idiot running around in a decent set of gear.

I used to joke about that with my guild, saying that in VoA your /random is inversely proportional to your dps.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 1:59pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#77 Sep 08 2009 at 10:59 AM Rating: Default
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Agreed with the OP

level 80 in wow is the Dunes of FFXI.... its worse even because all of the instances are gimmicky in nature so you are really screwed if you don't know every fight.
#78 Sep 08 2009 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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That is what I mean, Blizzard made content not available for everyone, but for every dumb idiot whos to dumb to play his class. I don't expect any player to do theorycraft or be the top Tank/DD/Healer of the server, but basic understandment of the class is enough, which many lack.
You don't expect theorycrafting or player rating? Really?


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Sure "casuals" will not get to see Anub'arak in HM anytime soon, or probably at all...but the problem is Anub'arak on NM is a complete joke even for casuals,
We couldn't even make it past Northern Beasts on hard mode yesterday, and we breezed through normal mode ToC. This is a guild that raids every week, and our core 10 man group (although we have no raid synergy as far as classes go) does pretty much every Ulduar hard mode short of the really insane ones. The amount of skill required, especially for fights like Faction Champions on hard mode is almost uncalled for.

In case you've never done faction champions, it's 6 mobs with no real aggro table and a full ******* of player-useable moves. That ret paladin? Yep, he'll use avenging wrath, HoJ you and just sh*t on a healer without a second's notice. In hard mode, they're even more likely to gib someone, as they move as a team, usually two or three of them will gang up on a random member of the raid and kill them, and your only escape is quick reaction time and knowing how to use the defensive mechanisms of your class correctly. And this applies to everyone, even people who normally would have very little use for survival mechanics.

This of course doesn't apply to all fights, but certainly one can't claim that HNMs in XI are somehow vastly more difficult. Don't make the mob flail is pretty much the only mechanic you have. The rest of the fight is actually claiming the mob at all, which is just an idiotic mechanic in the first place.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 4:02pm by Zackary
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#79 Sep 08 2009 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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I'll tell you what, it's disappointing to come back to these forums after a couple weeks break looking for information, and still see the same arguments over WoW versus FFXI.

They are two different games, and I wish some of you would get over it. Why isn't it ok for other people to like WoW, and why does it have to be a question of which one is "greater" than the other? It's just what you like.

It's beating a dead horse, but the sweeping generalizations about the WoW community are a bit militant, just as the generalizations about the XI community are a little vain. Both games have their fair share of children, just as both have their fair share of mature adults looking for simple recreation.

I am also against pretty much anyone who says "I hope XIV is just as hard as XI was" - because you know what? That's a pretty dumb statement to make when it's obvious that XI could have had a much larger player base if the "difficulty" had been actual difficulty, and not forced time sinks and guess work. It's pretty funny how the game forces grouping, but then doesn't give enough incentives to play, thus rendering it extremely difficult to find enough people on the right jobs at any given level to form said group. Any game that requires you to follow a wiki line by line because the in-game explanation is non-existent needs an overhaul in the next edition.

Sadly, XI has a niche group and there is nothing wrong with that, but let's dream a little bit bigger for XIV.
#80 Sep 08 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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^Fantastic post, I agree with every thing you said.
#81 Sep 08 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Default
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Torrence wrote:
I'll tell you what, it's disappointing to come back to these forums after a couple weeks break looking for information, and still see the same arguments over WoW versus FFXI.

They are two different games, and I wish some of you would get over it. Why isn't it ok for other people to like WoW, and why does it have to be a question of which one is "greater" than the other? It's just what you like.
Generally it's hardly the "this game is better than this game" and more of "this is a laundry list of things that should be taken from X game and put into XIV, because they worked well."

Of course, if said game is WoW, every XI fanboy in the place gets militant and red in the face and argues vehemently against it because that's just what they're indoctrinated into doing when WoW is even so much as mentioned.

But if you say so, I guess.
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#82 Sep 08 2009 at 5:09 PM Rating: Default
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I guess you guys didn't get the point that was my intention^^
I don't say FFXI is uber difficult and takes tons of skill, neither did I say WoW is a complete joke for almost everybody. All I said is, that Blizzard working towards the goal to help "casual players" achieve something or let them see the content as well, is not what Blizzard is doing. Blizzard implements NMS and HMs for the reason to let casuals see the content through NMs while "elitist" players get better gear and challenges through HMs...the problem I see is Blizzard is not catering towards casual players...casual players are able to beat Naxx and Colloseum with relative ease...the problem I have is, that its so ridiculously easy, that even low skilled players with no understanding for their class are able to clear it, because mistakes are not punished as they should be. THAT is what I don't want to see in FFXIV. Sure Fafnir/Nidhogg is no real difficulty, the problem is claiming it, but I don't see the FFXI HNMs as the "challenge" in FFXI...
#83 Sep 08 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Default
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posting over PS3...so double post...sry

I saw the challenge in FFXI more in Dynamis(especially the new areas) or Bahamut v2 when it came out and there were no zerg fests and things like that. Why do so few people have sea access? Because it takes skill(and more often certain class combinations to make it easier...) but still the fight itself is challenging...but what I want to say is basically...I just don't want content to be so **** easy that there is no need at all to "know" how to play your class like its the case with the Colloseum Normal and Naxx Normal. Of course a complete raid of retards won't clear ****...but still Raids for Naxx and even Colloseum can take 30-40% retards with them and still be able to clear it. For example a friend of mine is in a raid guild(with his twink) and they are really craptastic...many DDs dont even get above 3k DPS, the best being at 5k, while tanks lose aggro all the time+they need 8 healers in Ulduar to maintain the tank survival...still they got to Yogg Saron after a
#84 Sep 08 2009 at 5:22 PM Rating: Default
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sry triple post...god I hate it.

few IDs and even got to Anubarak right away...Faction Champions is more randomized but the only thing it takes to defeat them without problems is simply understandment of your class. Using all your abilities that are helpful. Warlocks can constantly fear, Hunter can use their taunt shot or what its called to force some faction champions to follow them for a few secs, other than that the Meeles like retadin and warriors can be slowed to kite them etc...there is more than enough ways to get them down...still they are easy enough that most guilds have no problem with them at all...even with half the raid being crap.

All I am saying is...I've got nothing against content that everyone can access to, but please no content that not just everyone can access to, but every ****** can clear as well. Casuals are Casuals, not idiots. Casuals know how to play as well if they want to and THAT is what needs to be rewarded, not just making a boss die 1st try although half of the raid is dead

Edited, Sep 9th 2009 1:27am by Shezard
#85 Sep 08 2009 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
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I think you guys are thinking a bit to hard. It just simple to say "Make endgame easy enough so majority of players has chance to clear with effort put forward but hard enough to be challenging even to the veteran players" But it should be assumed that entry level end game would be great deal easier then ones after.

I am actually very little concerned about endgame and more concerned about the rest. FF11 didnt give many incentive to level besides to level. Basically came down to "I will level up here so I can go to this place and level some more." Jobs really didnt evolve all that much from lv10 to 75. I think making jobs far more complex and instanced content throughout the game and not just at endgame would improve gameplay alot for me.
#86 Sep 09 2009 at 12:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Mitsuuko wrote:
I am actually very little concerned about endgame and more concerned about the rest. FF11 didnt give many incentive to level besides to level. Basically came down to "I will level up here so I can go to this place and level some more." Jobs really didnt evolve all that much from lv10 to 75. I think making jobs far more complex and instanced content throughout the game and not just at endgame would improve gameplay alot for me.
Agreed, and like I've said plenty of times previously, if the instance system is implemented well, it can and will set this game apart from the others currently on the market, because people won't go back to the old XI camps without a bitter taste in their mouths.
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#87piglato, Posted: Sep 20 2009 at 4:06 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Aww cmon now torrence. It aint as if the OP was talking about why FF11 was a better game as a package. The op was talking about why FF11 had a better community then Wow does.
#88 Sep 20 2009 at 6:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I hate you for bumping this thread.
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#89 Sep 20 2009 at 7:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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this wont be well recieved but I'm fine with that. Who are you to say the ffxi community is greater then the wow community. I've played both games at endgame, and for over two years a piece and I Can say both games are relitively the same in terms of their community. Each with its fair share of richards, each with its own benevolent folks. Each with its preteens and each with its newbs.
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#90 Sep 20 2009 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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I think its a very fair assumption to say FF11 had best MMORPG current community a few years ago. But I wouldnt say that it is till the case. FF11 community is greatly different then it use to be. No offense but a great portion of the community is very gloomy and cynical. Atleast that what I beene experiencing. Maybe its just my server but its fairly common for me to encounter those kinds of people. That and the viberant energy that the community had is all but gone.
#91 Sep 20 2009 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
WoW could be a fairly good game if you found the right group of people to play with. I rarely partied outside of my friends, and most of the people I played with were real life friends. The week or two I acutally got to play FFXI it was fantastic, everyone I talked to was fairly friendly and almost more then willing to help or point me in the right direction. I stoped playing doing to comcast issues.
#92 Sep 20 2009 at 10:42 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I played FFXI for three years before playing WoW. One thing I constantly heard about WoW, was that the community was immature and rude. It was totally true, and after pondering it for a while, I think I know why. On FFXI, you had to group from 10-75. If you were a poor player, or a rude player, your reputation would suck and it was impossible to progress, because no one would ever invite you again.


Sorry, but that's a load of crap. In my years of playing on Fairy there were many infamous people who acted like complete asses and accomplished a lot. Poof and Thunderblaze, just to name two, were the hated people on the server and have been around for many years.

You wanna know why the community sucks on WoW compared to FFXI? It's the population. When you have 10 million subscribers compared to 500-600k you better expect more immature kids to be around. That's not even a 10:1 ratio on server population.

I love FFXI as much as anyone else here, but the community isn't that great to think that bad players won't get anywhere in the game. You can be the biggest **** ever known, but if you're a bard or red mage most won't give a ****. Some may resist, but the large majority will still invite the person no matter what.
#93 Sep 21 2009 at 3:46 AM Rating: Decent
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LieteOfFairy wrote:
Quote:
I played FFXI for three years before playing WoW. One thing I constantly heard about WoW, was that the community was immature and rude. It was totally true, and after pondering it for a while, I think I know why. On FFXI, you had to group from 10-75. If you were a poor player, or a rude player, your reputation would suck and it was impossible to progress, because no one would ever invite you again.


Sorry, but that's a load of crap. In my years of playing on Fairy there were many infamous people who acted like complete asses and accomplished a lot. Poof and Thunderblaze, just to name two, were the hated people on the server and have been around for many years.

You wanna know why the community sucks on WoW compared to FFXI? It's the population. When you have 10 million subscribers compared to 500-600k you better expect more immature kids to be around. That's not even a 10:1 ratio on server population.

I love FFXI as much as anyone else here, but the community isn't that great to think that bad players won't get anywhere in the game. You can be the biggest **** ever known, but if you're a bard or red mage most won't give a ****. Some may resist, but the large majority will still invite the person no matter what.
We had a few guys like this on Gilgamesh. Most notably, Lynk and Blynk (Real life friends, and total and complete cnuts.) that pretty much got everything the game had to offer, all the while cheating, stealing, and harassing people to get there. They started a linkshell, which people joined knowing FULL WELL how jerkish these people were, and they used to sit at camps and harass people in whisper with spambots and openly admitted to running claimbots. (And never got banned for it, either. How shocking, right?) And this was not just those two, either. Most of the people in the shell started doing the same **** they would just because they thought they would get gear.

There was also another guy named Dioma who was the treasurer for one of the few NA HNM shells early on in XI's life span. One day, he disappeared, and all of the gil and crafting supplies disappeared with him. On top of that, the various people who entrusted their account information to him had been cleaned out, R/EX items deleted or vendored, and content IDs cancelled. About a year later, he reappears with a new name, and decides he's going to start up his own shell. Same story as above, tons of people join even though they know about what he did (It was a pretty huge deal for a good while, it would have been really difficult to NOT know.) and they ended up being just like the other shell. They'd Diaga slept mobs, steal claims, and pretty much utilize every underhanded trick in the book.


So just because WoW has more twats doesn't necessarily mean XI has a better community. Honestly, I would rather deal with some jackass in WoW trying to harass me, because at least Blizzard GMs actually take action in those cases. I remember waiting hours for GMs to contact me in XI when people outright harassed an entire camp site of players, only to find out that there is "nothing we can do at this time."
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#94 Sep 21 2009 at 5:33 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I hate you for bumping this thread.


Well it was only on the second page, but I didnt realise that the forums here are not that populated and move at a slower pace so it could have been an old post


Anyway I find it hilarious people actually defend wow here so viciously
Even a huge amount of the wow community will tell you their **** community is horrible.

What about the wow forums? You lose brain cells reading those forums..
The amount of inmature spam and cussing and racism is so rampant that
their forums are basically unreadable

Anyway whatever... People can think whatever. I played both games extensively
(so have many other people) but I know how the communities of both games are
but I did play ff11 bout 2 years ago when I quit. And Ive seen a few comments bouncing around that the community has actually become worse.. so that might be something that doesnt factor into my view.

Why do people defend wow around here so so **** seriously anyway?
Its an FF forum, who really cares if some people take a few shots at wow
which tend to actually have a lot of truth in them?

Or is just the fact its an old topic/dead horse that people just want to
ignore?
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#95 Sep 21 2009 at 6:37 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
What about the wow forums? You lose brain cells reading those forums..
Have you ever read the FFXI General Forums on this site? I've lost more brain cells from reading that than I could have if I had spent said time running my head repeatedly into the wall next to my desk.
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#96 Sep 21 2009 at 7:14 AM Rating: Decent
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I played FFXI during the PC release many years ago and I found the community to be very mature compared to what I see now. I've seen a few reasons above listing why, like the type of audience it attracts, it's focus on PvE or that it forces you to group.

I think those are just smaller pieces of a larger puzzle of the many reasons why it is this way. The job system was another huge bonus, most people only had one character and ONE name that you work with the entire time which makes it harder for you to hide from peoples memories of your stupidity.

Not only that, what about the complete lack of griefing tools that are available to you? There is no general chat you can use to broadcast your mental vomit into the faces of other people. There was no world PvP for ganking other to make their day miserable. There was a 10% exp cut when you die to prevent most people from doing stupid things in groups intentionally.

There are many more examples that I can't think of off the top of my head right now, but all these things came together to forge the player community of XI. I don't believe the developers are going to be able to recreate what they once had in terms of a player community if they change these things.

*Hear me out on this* What I would like though, is to have the exact same system that FFXI had with only slightly more solo viability and not such a terrible battle system. It was too sluggish for my taste, take you 10 seconds between each hit, you have to stop moving to sheathe or unsheathe your weapon, spells are too spread out in level. When you get Stone II thats basically all youre going to use is Stone II because the other spells were too low in level to drop as much damage. TP takes too long to generate. Switching targets takes too long. The inability to effectively tank....the list goes on.

Thats my only real beef with the game. Fix the battle system and I'll gladly sit in line to buy the new game and attempt to get all my old FFXI friends back into the game with me.
#97 Sep 21 2009 at 8:05 AM Rating: Good
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Zackary wrote:
Quote:
What about the wow forums? You lose brain cells reading those forums..
Have you ever read the FFXI General Forums on this site? I've lost more brain cells from reading that than I could have if I had spent said time running my head repeatedly into the wall next to my desk.


Still would rather read the "horrid FFXI General forums" (which isn't that bad?) then lol@arena rating/gems/gear/lack of achievements/class/whatever which LITTERS about ever thread of wow's forums.

*Forgot to mention my personal favorite, why such and such class is OP and why my class is underpowered threads.

Edited, Sep 21st 2009 11:06am by Ipwnrice
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#98 Sep 21 2009 at 8:23 AM Rating: Default
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Ipwnrice wrote:
Zackary wrote:
Quote:
What about the wow forums? You lose brain cells reading those forums..
Have you ever read the FFXI General Forums on this site? I've lost more brain cells from reading that than I could have if I had spent said time running my head repeatedly into the wall next to my desk.


Still would rather read the "horrid FFXI General forums" (which isn't that bad?) then lol@arena rating/gems/gear/lack of achievements/class/whatever which LITTERS about ever thread of wow's forums.

*Forgot to mention my personal favorite, why such and such class is OP and why my class is underpowered threads.
XI forums really aren't that much different. Instead of people being jerks like in WoW forums, people are just stupid as **** in XI forums.
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#99 Sep 21 2009 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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feel free to quote my blunder from the boob slider thread to strengthen ur point lol ive never had a problem really with anyone in ffxi, i ran a few times into the "elite" type players that kicked me out of a party once for skillchaining instead of burning the tp i didn't c the big deal i was kinda new but he was a d1ck about it. as for WoW i tried it and never played long enough to to party with anyone so i stopped playing.. ive been having the urge to start ffxi again but i think im just better off waiting for 14.
#100 Sep 21 2009 at 9:29 AM Rating: Default
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Xcraze wrote:
feel free to quote my blunder from the boob slider thread to strengthen ur point lol ive never had a problem really with anyone in ffxi, i ran a few times into the "elite" type players that kicked me out of a party once for skillchaining instead of burning the tp i didn't c the big deal i was kinda new but he was a d1ck about it. as for WoW i tried it and never played long enough to to party with anyone so i stopped playing.. ive been having the urge to start ffxi again but i think im just better off waiting for 14.
Zackary wrote:
XI forums really aren't that much different. Instead of people being jerks like in WoW forums, people are just stupid as **** in XI forums.
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#101 Sep 21 2009 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I find it interesting that people are so adamantly defending FF11 community when they only played for a few years. FF11 community atleast for me is vastly different between now and 5 years ago. I dont think anyone would disagree that 5 years ago FF11 was far superior to WoW community wise. But its sort of redundant to compare what FF11 "use to be". I would say now they pretty much dead even.

Also its pointless in general to compare the two. A view point of very subjective. I mean community can vastly different from server to server. And even within a single server one person can run into only horrible people while another can run into only amazing people. I know many people who played FF11 for a week but quit because they ran into alot of jerks can assumed the entire FF11 community was the same. This applies to any game, there no such thing as a community just filled with just losers or winners.
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