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Do you know why the FFXI community was > WoW? Grouping.Follow

#102 Sep 21 2009 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Mitsuuko wrote:
I know many people who played FF11 for a week but quit because they ran into alot of jerks can assumed the entire FF11 community was the same. This applies to any game, there no such thing as a community just filled with just losers or winners.
Except in WoW we're all jerks/losers. But at least we admit it.
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#103 Sep 21 2009 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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There is a good point to be made about that statement.

WoW certainly doesnt have a huge issue about admitting their community isnt perfect. I dont think its fair to say the bulk is kids or jerks but in any game community you will get good number of both. But WoW never felt that having a imperfect community was ever a bad thing.

FF11 on the other hand always seemed to promote having a amazing community as its best point of the game. Afraid to admit that it isnt perfect, that it has fair amount of kids and jerks as well.

The difference between the two is interesting. One almost never promoted their community and other promotes it as its best aspect. I dont think their is much a difference between the two in the long run. Just one doesnt care that its community isnt perfect and the other just wont admit it.

As I said in my previous post, the opinion is very subjective. And people very well could have great experience in FF11 and horrible in WoW. For me I had great experience and friends in both games. Just as I had horrible experiences and enemies in both games. I dont mean to discredit anyone personal experience in either game but I just want to point out that another person personal experience can be rather different based on the people they encounter.

#104 Sep 21 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Mitsuuko wrote:
The difference between the two is interesting. One almost never promoted their community and other promotes it as its best aspect.
See, but that's where the XI fanatics tend to lose my interest. Community should not be your selling point. The GAME should be able to sell itself. If I were just looking for a community, I'd join a chat room or forum. I don't need to pay $11+ dollars a month for that.
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#105 Sep 22 2009 at 12:12 PM Rating: Default
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Zackary wrote:
Mitsuuko wrote:
The difference between the two is interesting. One almost never promoted their community and other promotes it as its best aspect.
See, but that's where the XI fanatics tend to lose my interest. Community should not be your selling point. The GAME should be able to sell itself. If I were just looking for a community, I'd join a chat room or forum. I don't need to pay $11+ dollars a month for that.


The game caused the community to develop as it did on XI because you have to work together. They go hand-in-hand.

I don't see grouping happening on XIV and therefore I see a much more WoW like community.
#106 Sep 22 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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Zackary wrote:
Mitsuuko wrote:
The difference between the two is interesting. One almost never promoted their community and other promotes it as its best aspect.
See, but that's where the XI fanatics tend to lose my interest. Community should not be your selling point. The GAME should be able to sell itself. If I were just looking for a community, I'd join a chat room or forum. I don't need to pay $11+ dollars a month for that.


Yeah sorry no. Not to sound cliche, but the selling point of an MMORPG is that you're playing it with many people. If you just want a game without having to deal with people then you should be playing a solo game.
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#107 Sep 22 2009 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:


Yeah sorry no. Not to sound cliche, but the selling point of an MMORPG is that you're playing it with many people. If you just want a game without having to deal with people then you should be playing a solo game.


Thats basic concept of all MMO. It is a important part of any MMO but it certainly doesnt make a game enjoyable by itself. I played many games that had good communities but the game itself bored me to tears.

Also player base does not equal community. Any active MMO will cause you to heavily interact with other people. The conversation is about "I am not going to buy a game just because its filled with cool people, I want a good quality game"
#108 Sep 22 2009 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Zackary wrote:
Community should not be your selling point. The GAME should be able to sell itself.

No. Community is a perfectly valid selling point.

The problem with FFXI is that the game sacrificed far too much to get a slightly better community. A weight loss plan that requires you to chop off limbs might be effective, but is it worth it? The flaws in FFXI forced people into being tight knight groups.
#109 Sep 22 2009 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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My point is the community shouldn't be enough to allow the game to be a piece of ****.
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#110 Sep 22 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Zackary wrote:
My point is the community shouldn't be enough to allow the game to be a piece of sh*t.


But XI isn't that. It might be a bit on the tough side, but it's a great game.
#111 Sep 22 2009 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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VrKurosawa wrote:

But XI isn't that. It might be a bit on the tough side, but it's a great game.


Honestly its a hard question to answer (even though it wasnt a question). Would FF11 be better off if it didnt focus so heavily on community which probably would develop on its on ? Could be..If we didnt focus on community would FF11 developed different kinds of content ? Probably not...

Even though the game itself should be the priority of any MMO over the development of the community sense community usually develop naturally. I honestly dont think the game would of been a whole lot different if they didnt.

Not to mention majority of the focusing on the community happened within the community. All SE really did in this regard is develop most only group oriented material.
#112 Sep 22 2009 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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With comparing comunites of XI and WoW, one thing stands out more then others, and it was mentioned earlier. In XI, you were your character. No matter what job you played, you were stuck with that character and name. THAT was your identity.

In WoW there is no identity. You have multipule characters, spanning across multipule servers, playing multipule different classes. Add in the fact you can change name, change race, change between male and female, change servers, and now you can change factions... where's the personal responsibility to maintain your characters online identity?
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#113 Sep 22 2009 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Magilicotti wrote:
With comparing comunites of XI and WoW, one thing stands out more then others, and it was mentioned earlier. In XI, you were your character. No matter what job you played, you were stuck with that character and name. THAT was your identity.

In WoW there is no identity. You have multipule characters, spanning across multipule servers, playing multipule different classes. Add in the fact you can change name, change race, change between male and female, change servers, and now you can change factions... where's the personal responsibility to maintain your characters online identity?


I would highly agree with this. In FF11 I am far more attached to my character. 7 years ago I have the same model, the same name, and the same feeling towards her. Sure had to start over 1 or 2 times but it always stayed the same. FF11 Job system I think is a gem that is unique to FF11.
#114 Sep 22 2009 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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VrKurosawa wrote:
Zackary wrote:
My point is the community shouldn't be enough to allow the game to be a piece of sh*t.


But XI isn't that. It might be a bit on the tough side, but it's a great game.
But it really has become a piece of ****. At least when you compare it to any of it's competitors. It simply is not keeping pace with neither the technology nor the advances in the genre's mechanics. And that is what makes it a sub par game.

For it's time it was fine, but it's due for an update, which I am happy to say XIV will be. But on that same note, I wish people would stop trying to make it into a carbon copy of XI simply because they're afraid of what the "community" is going to turn out to be. Stop being so afraid of change and get over yourself.
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#115 Sep 22 2009 at 3:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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The community in FFXI is not what it was. And the forums on this board in my opinion reflect that especially the server forums. And how often do the people defending the FF community actually interact with people outside of their linkshell on any major scale?

Probably not alot.
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#116 Sep 22 2009 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
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Sahaya wrote:
The community in FFXI is not what it was. And the forums on this board in my opinion reflect that especially the server forums. And how often do the people defending the FF community actually interact with people outside of their linkshell on any major scale?

Probably not alot.


I am sure a good portion of the forums dont even play FF11 anymore and just remember when it was at its peak <_<
#117 Sep 22 2009 at 8:00 PM Rating: Default
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Zackary wrote:

But it really has become a piece of sh*t. At least when you compare it to any of it's competitors. It simply is not keeping pace with neither the technology nor the advances in the genre's mechanics. And that is what makes it a sub par game.

For it's time it was fine, but it's due for an update, which I am happy to say XIV will be. But on that same note, I wish people would stop trying to make it into a carbon copy of XI simply because they're afraid of what the "community" is going to turn out to be. Stop being so afraid of change and get over yourself.


I think I can say safely say /thread

edit: I suck *** at quoting

Edited, Sep 22nd 2009 11:01pm by shaani
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#118 Sep 22 2009 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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Mitsuuko wrote:
Sahaya wrote:
The community in FFXI is not what it was. And the forums on this board in my opinion reflect that especially the server forums. And how often do the people defending the FF community actually interact with people outside of their linkshell on any major scale?

Probably not alot.


I am sure a good portion of the forums dont even play FF11 anymore and just remember when it was at its peak <_<
I started playing at NA release on Gilgamesh, one of the better servers early-on in the game's life span. I quit playing about a month after Wings of the Goddess came out. I had just started a new job, and all of the people in the office played WoW together, and convinced me to join them. Glad I did. But yeah, I'd say I did play for a little while during the off-peak portion of the game's lifespan.

It took a dive after Treasures came out. I think it had to do with the diminishing playerbase on top of the fact that Aht Urghan really kind of crowded people together. (Anyone remember trying to find a merit camp during peak hours? It was such a pain in the ***.) You'd have people camping on eachother, stealing mobs from one another, and just generally griefing one another. Then you had your events like Salvage that kind of made people clique together, which (at least in my LS) caused some drama because people felt like they were being excluded/ignored. It was just a mess, at least socially.

That being said, I doubt we have to worry about it for a while. Eorzea looks pretty vast so far.
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#119 Sep 23 2009 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
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Call me a old school MMO player, but I didn't mind the grouped up level grind. And in WoW, I enjoyed not having to worry about a group, and solo quests to accomplish levels. I hope they at least, keep some form of group level grinding as part of the overall leveling of your character, but also when that option isn't available, I am also to set out on my own.

Basically I want my cake and eat it too.
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#120 Sep 23 2009 at 6:35 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
But it really has become a piece of sh*t. At least when you compare it to any of it's competitors



I think the words you are looking for is old and outdated and showing its age badly. That happens to all games, so who really cares? FFIV is on its way all is well

In 2 years wow will be in the same position. Altho they will milk that game for as long as they can because of the ridiculous amount of people playing it. but that doesnt mean it wont old and outdated.

I think its kind of silly how you are assuming that we actually want FFIV to be a time draining, inaccessable , horrible grind.. so that we might have a slightly better community.. I dont think anybody wants that.




Edited, Sep 23rd 2009 10:41pm by piglato
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#121 Sep 23 2009 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I think the words you are looking for is old and outdated and showing its age badly. That happens to all games, so who really cares? FFIV is on its way all is well
Nope. I mean a piece of ****. There are plenty of things they could have done to keep up, none of which they ever seemed all that interested in doing.
Quote:
I think its kind of silly how you are assuming that we actually want FFIV to be a time draining, inaccessable , horrible grind.. so that we might have a slightly better community.. I dont think anybody wants that.
Obviously you haven't been reading these forums very closely.
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#122 Sep 24 2009 at 1:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Nope. I mean a piece of sh*t. There are plenty of things they could have done to keep up, none of which they ever seemed all that interested in doing.


Fair enough, your opinion, some things like mmo's have many concepts that are you know? subjective. You dont have to trash a game because in your opinion its a heap of trash
A lot of people dont like the direction wow has taken either , and think its in a trash state, The never ending gearing and grinding hampster wheel that it has become. Its got to the state where just after you've finished grinding to get a top tier set of gear , you are on another grind to do the same thing
ALLLL OVER again. There are pieces of gear in FF11 that remained best in slot for close too for like 5 years
Dont even think about quitting wow for 2 months because then your hundreds of hours behind again.. Yeh fun amirite.
Fun if you like to live in front of your PC, otherwise... not so fun.

PvP hasnt evolved in any meaningful way since arena.

Not to mention the never ending nerfs and buffs to every class every single patch, Yet their classes are still focking way way out of balance

WoW has its many faults as well.
I did say wows community is terrible and imo it is, but there are lots of great people who play the game, you just have to look harder, but myself I never trashed wow as a package
I didnt want to criticize wow because its still the best overall package out there as an mmo and has redeeming features. but myself I think it isnt worth playing at all, but hey I dont like to trash it because other people enjoy the game, That is obviously a concept lost on you.
If you hate it so bad , I dont know why on earth you are on the ffIV
forum and waiting out for the new game. ( dont tell me , I dont care)

Quote:
Obviously you haven't been reading these forums very closely.


I was reffering to the posts on this thread , not the forums as a whole.
Dont respond, Im not interested

Edited, Sep 24th 2009 6:03am by piglato

Edited, Sep 24th 2009 6:12am by piglato
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#123 Sep 24 2009 at 6:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry, I couldn't read all of that. Too subjective. And poorly typed.
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#124 Sep 27 2009 at 8:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Zackary wrote:
Quote:
I think the words you are looking for is old and outdated and showing its age badly. That happens to all games, so who really cares? FFIV is on its way all is well
Nope. I mean a piece of sh*t. There are plenty of things they could have done to keep up, none of which they ever seemed all that interested in doing.
Quote:
I think its kind of silly how you are assuming that we actually want FFIV to be a time draining, inaccessable , horrible grind.. so that we might have a slightly better community.. I dont think anybody wants that.
Obviously you haven't been reading these forums very closely.


I totally disagree. I think the game and the game mechanics itself are excellent; only certain events need work. That's why I fear XIV will be too similar to WoW and will lose a lot of the appeal XI had to me.
#125 Sep 27 2009 at 9:51 PM Rating: Good
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Zackary wrote:
Sorry, I couldn't read all of that. Too subjective. And poorly typed.


Smiley: lol
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#126 Sep 27 2009 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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That being said, I doubt we have to worry about it for a while. Eorzea looks pretty vast so far.


Actually, the devs said that Eorzea will be smaller than the initial area of Vana'diel.

Maybe you meant that it looks vast because of the many new MMOs coming out that will lead to a smaller initial playerbase than FFXI. (but we are coming in at the same time as the EU and JP players, so I guess it will be more crowded than Vana'diel was when we first got it in the US)

Quote:
It took a dive after Treasures came out.


Really it didn't. The game 'took a dive' in many people's eyes at different points... usually corresponding with their own personal lives. For you, it 'took a dive' when you got tired of the game and got a job. For others it 'took a dive' when CoP required level capped encounters. For still others the game never 'took a dive' until FFXIV was announced.

Personally I stopped playing after WoTG's second major update because I just didn't have the time for it. For me it 'took a dive' then. FFXI just required too much time wasted LFG, even though I love the party mechanics, I want to be able to jump in and out on an hourly basis at the least.

I think the best solution to the entire issue argued here, about grouping vs solo being the better version of 'leveling' is to have servers instanced to level ranges. That way you never really have to lfg for hours, as everyone is already within your level range. You get the enjoyment of parties without the wait time that everyone hates. Solo can still be viable, of course, but not something you do just because it takes too much time to get a group.

And enough camps that nobody feels crowded please. (Or set mob respawn to correspond with player density)

Edited, Sep 28th 2009 4:00am by Shazaamemt
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#127 Sep 28 2009 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Or do cross-server looking for group and allow for instanced leveling content. Blizzard has touched on this idea to some extent as a way to address some servers with low population having their lfg system suffer. (A lot of players who want to level as tank/healers in groups cannot because there are no compatible people to group with for instances of their level.) They haven't implemented it yet, but there have been some mentions of it.

It's not a bad idea in general, and I think it could work in lots of other games. The one it would make the most sense in is obviously XI, but it's probably too late now. Here's to hoping for something akin to it in XIV.
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#128 Sep 29 2009 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
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This whole thread is stupid, anyone who has played Warcraft 3 or Starcraft or Diablo 2 online know exactly why WOW has a ****** 14 year olde player base.
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#129 Sep 29 2009 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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LobsterJohnson wrote:
This whole thread is stupid, anyone who has played Warcraft 3 or Starcraft or Diablo 2 online know exactly why WOW has a sh*tty 14 year olde player base.


This times 100. Play some DOTA for about 20 minutes, its beyond astonishing.
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#130 Sep 29 2009 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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Ipwnrice wrote:
LobsterJohnson wrote:
This whole thread is stupid, anyone who has played Warcraft 3 or Starcraft or Diablo 2 online know exactly why WOW has a sh*tty 14 year olde player base.


This times 100. Play some DOTA for about 20 minutes, its beyond astonishing.
I'm sorry, but someone with "pwn" in their name really cannot make any arguments against any player.
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#131 Sep 30 2009 at 12:00 AM Rating: Good
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I used to have pwn in my name. Ironically, but still... :c
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#132 Sep 30 2009 at 5:24 AM Rating: Default
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Zackary wrote:
Ipwnrice wrote:
LobsterJohnson wrote:
This whole thread is stupid, anyone who has played Warcraft 3 or Starcraft or Diablo 2 online know exactly why WOW has a sh*tty 14 year olde player base.


This times 100. Play some DOTA for about 20 minutes, its beyond astonishing.
I'm sorry, but someone with "pwn" in their name really cannot make any arguments against any player.


Its a name I use when the one I always try to use is taken. Its not like its Ipwnjoo or Ipwnnoobs or something retarded like that. But hey I could just say I did it for the lulz and all is forgiven right? Amiright?



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#133 Sep 30 2009 at 6:36 AM Rating: Good
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The thing about FFXI's community to me is everything is more personal. You make some very close friends, and I certainly have and appreciate each and every one.

You can also make some very bitter enemies. Ground kings, for example, resulted in huge LS and often personal rivalries. I've heard accusations of all sorts that had nothing to do with botting or MPK (although you'd always hear those too). Limited and non-instanced content like sky and Dynamis seem to bring out the worst in people at times. You have few XP camps that people will fight over, and ultra rare gear that either doesn't drop in a timely fashion or isn't distributed to people's liking. Through all this strangers become enemies, and friends become enemies. Certainly not always, but more than some would like to think.

I guess the TL;DR point is that the same content that is lauded for bringing people together also serves to drive some pretty big wedges between them as well.
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#134 Sep 30 2009 at 7:57 AM Rating: Default
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Seeing as this thread is about FFXI and WoW, could we have it moved to one of those boards? Pretty please.

Edited, Sep 30th 2009 11:59am by Callipho
#135 Sep 30 2009 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Callipho wrote:
Seeing as this thread is about FFXI and WoW, could we have it moved to one of those boards? Pretty please.

Edited, Sep 30th 2009 11:59am by Callipho
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#136 Oct 06 2009 at 3:01 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
This whole thread is stupid, anyone who has played Warcraft 3 or Starcraft or Diablo 2 online know exactly why WOW has a sh*tty 14 year olde player base.
#137 Oct 08 2009 at 6:49 PM Rating: Default
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People talk about the FFXI community and the WoW community maturity levels quite a bit and I love reading about it, having been a fan of, and played both games, quite a bit over the last 5 years.

In my experience, I think it comes downs to the target. Wow is clearly targeted at the average North American teen. And what do North American teens want. Well they want everything, of course. And they want it NOW. And, if they don't get it, there will be war. A war that will end with something like, "OMG ur such a n00b, I'll pwn joo /facepalm nom nom nom show me ur bewbs" Blizzard knows that, and they develop their product to cater to that type of player, IMHO. And it also has to be easy, because of the way kids are being dumbed down in this part of the world. And, on top of that, if it isn't quick and easy the average NA player will tune out in 20 minutes.

This might sound like a horrible generalization, and it is, but that's just how I see it, coming from the 8 bit generation. Have you ever played Too Human? The game practically plays itself. Just sit there and hit "A" repeatedly and you'll see the end credits soon enough. Seriously, you would have to try to die in that game. Ever wonder why Guitar Hero is so popular? Same reason. The game, is simple: match colored dots on a screen to colored dots on a controller. A monkey can do this. But...it gives the user the illusion that they are doing something incredible. So incredible, in fact, that the user has to make a youtube video of this so the whole world can know. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on GH. I think it's tons of fun, but on it's face merits, the game has 0 content. But what can we learn from it's massive success in terms of what people want? Quick, easy, mindless fun. There's a huge market for gamers beyond the usual suspects like a lot of us, that won't sit there and camp an NM for 3 hours, for the reasons I just listed, and for more that I haven't, but would love to play the latest trendy MMO if only it were easy enough, quick enough, and popular enough. FFXI is none of those things, which is why it seems to attract less people like those I have just described. Anyway, getting into a game like WoW, and being surprised by the maturity levels of the players you find there, is like going to the library and being surprised by all the books there. "Gamer" doesn't mean now what it did when I was playing Dragon Warrior on the NES for days on end. I think the days when games were made for people like that are over and games like WoW will become the norm.

If SE wants to be a player in the NA market, they had better get wise to this.

In any case, it's not hard to find mature people to play with in either of these two games. I've done it many times on and off over the years. You just have to know where to look and to not let your generalizations get the better of you, even when they are so obvious and frustrating.
#138 Oct 09 2009 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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518 posts
I love FFXI (even having not played in a year). Those were the best MMO experiences in my gaming history.

What i loved is that the tedium of the game was only going to be overcome by the players that truly wanted to play the game. All others were not going to survive past the Dunes.

For those of us who played for 3+ years we can attest to the fact that even though the lfg was painful, leveling was slow (in comparison to easy-mode wow), and crafting had heavy risk/reward it was those very elements that kept the faithful player base cordial and mature as they are. Why? Because 9 times out of 10 a game that progresses like FFXI does was only going to attract folks with a much higher sense of value and accomplishment. And perhaps that older (more time than not) player base were just more settled and willing to play a game with the tedium FFXI entailed and saw Vana'Diel in a much more realistic light. Maybe I'm talking gibberish but I truly miss it. Matter of act... I think I'm going to go reactivate my account.
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