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Dark Knight?Follow

#1 Sep 04 2009 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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Dark Knight was my favorite job to play in FFXI and I'm wondering if maybe they'll add scythe's in this game as well since I've heard there aren't "jobs" per say in the game, so maybe equip a scythe and you get DRK type skills are you progress through the game? I haven't looked up deep into all the latest news but if someone has any info on this please let me know, thanks!
#2 Sep 04 2009 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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If I had to guess, I would say that SE will use a scythe for the harvesting class. I think that drk as we know it are dead.
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#3 Sep 04 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dark Harvesters.

You'll be able to use Blood Weapon on trees and wheat.
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#4 Sep 04 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Default
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drks used 2h swords too. in fact DRKs originally used katana type weapons back in FF3. So they might change it for FFXIV.

I always felt like scythes were lame anyways. Felt too fanboi ish

Edited, Sep 4th 2009 9:16pm by imperialvulture
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#5 Sep 04 2009 at 8:32 PM Rating: Decent
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OP: there are actually "jobs" per se. so far we've seen Archer, Marauder, Pugilist, Weaver and Gladiator. marauder seems like the new Warrior, making Gladiator....the new Paladin?

also, agreed, scythe is lame. not to get all "reality" on everyone, but just imagining trying to slice something up with a scythe in any effective way makes me cringe.
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#6 Sep 04 2009 at 8:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Yea like others may have mentioned, for a Dark Knight you would equip a Scythe/Great Sword and learn dark magic and what have you. Since you get to create whatever the heck you want, its up to you which path you take...save for pet classes, which i hope they implement in the game at a later date somehow, because they'd be interesting to play for sure.
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#7 Sep 05 2009 at 12:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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I heard from a very reliable source that there is going to be a multi-hit Scythe. When combined with abilities such as "The Quota Must be Met" and "Intensive Method" a DRK FRM will be able to mow down entire fields of corn in mere seconds!

Although, in a recent patch on the developers test this has been changed. Wheat Field HP has been adjusted, as SE didnt anticipate DRK FRM's being able to put out numbers like that and it needed rebalancing.
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#8 Sep 05 2009 at 6:47 AM Rating: Good
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too soon to say it doesnt exist, as the game has yet to even reveal any details on magic classes yet let alone hybrid classes!
#9 Sep 05 2009 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
Kirbster wrote:
Dark Harvesters.

You'll be able to use Blood Weapon on trees and wheat.

You forgot about Cross Reaper.
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#10 Sep 08 2009 at 8:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
drks used 2h swords too. in fact DRKs originally used katana type weapons back in FF3. So they might change it for FFXIV.

I always felt like scythes were lame anyways. Felt too fanboi ish


. . . and katanas don't?
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#11 Sep 08 2009 at 8:31 AM Rating: Default
I hope they add scythes, and I think they will.

I also thought scythes were kind of lame in FFXI, and when I levelled up DRK to 75 I was always intent on using a Naglering (two-handed sword) build at the end because I thought the scythes were so stupid.

The whole idea of fighting with scythes is rather unrealistic, and I think that's where FFXI went wrong.
They didn't really embrace how ridiculous it was and it just seemed like you were fighting with a harvesting scythe.
(And some of the scythe designs in FFXI actually look that way, too. A wooden stick with a curved blade on the end.)

I hope they add scythes if they're much more extravagant - bigger/thicker weapons, quicker motions, etc. - I know Tarutaru are meant to be cute but the scythe motion for them is soo lame.

Actually I'm hoping a lot of stuff in FFXIV is over-the-top Advent Children style junk, lol. Bigger weapons, crazier movies, etc.

There's some good examples but I kind of liked the way that black dude from Soul Calibur III handled/swung the scythe.

Screenshot


Do I think we will see proper Dark Knights with dark magic? Probably not.
It was kind of stupid in FFXI anyway. Stun magic didn't even some appropriate. Only the blood draining did, but it wasn't really very cool or anything.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 12:33pm by Poubelle
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#12 Sep 08 2009 at 8:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Why is using magic as a weapon less realistic to using a Scythe as a weapon? A Scythe can be a very effective weapon. Not as effective as a Katana, or a Dagger, but still very powerful. With the right training, you can kill someone with a **** ballpoint pen. Yeah, it would take patience, and alot of work to master it, but isnt that what skilling up is all about?
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#13 Sep 08 2009 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
Because in a game world type of way, a scythe is still a scythe, and magic is magic. If you're going for weapons intended to be weapons, a scythe just isn't a great candidate.

The whole scythe thing started with the grim reaper, the thing is that it really was a harvesting scythe for the grim reaper because it was a metaphor for plowing the field of humanity, cutting down the old so that the new can grow, etc.

And yes, I know that you *can* use anything as a weapon, but there's also a reason they don't make a 'broken coffee cup' categoy, there's just better thing to use, things that people would actually use in the world they are presenting us.

Katanas aren't in the same class as they're actual weapons intended to be used as weapons.
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#14 Sep 08 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Book written in 1542 by Paulus Hector Mair describing how to fence with a scythe. Mair was one of the most accomplished martial artists of the time. A Scythe is a valid weapon in the same way a chain whip or a Sai is. Yes, a Katana is a designed purley as a weapon, and therefore alot more effective in the right hands. But still, Scythes kick *** and if someone really knew what they were doing with one, they could really put out some hurt.
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#15 Sep 08 2009 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Dreakon, you're amazing. =D
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#16 Sep 08 2009 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Just because someone wrote a discorce on how to fight with a scythe does not mean it was a pratical weapon to begin with. After all someone skilled enough can use just about anything as a weapon.

There are historical referances to the modification of the scythe to actualy be used in combat but it's not what Dark Knight fans would recognise as a scythe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_scythe
http://www.montaguemillennium.com/medieval/Medieval_Hand_Weapons.htm

The basic design of a normal scythe is to unweildly to be effective in combat, they had to be altered to be worth useing.
#17 Sep 08 2009 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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did't ninjas use scythe, well the shorter form of it anyway
#18 Sep 08 2009 at 3:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Although Scythe wasn't my main weapon of choice for BST, because the job was only mediocre-to-barely-good with one equipped, I liked having the option. I agree that many scythes could look cooler for this generation of FF Online gaming, such as, this image from Dante's Inferno...
[img=141200]

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 4:02pm by TheJollyjokers
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#19 Sep 08 2009 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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lacesus wrote:
did't ninjas use scythe, well the shorter form of it anyway


That would be the Kama, which is basically just a Sickle.
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#20 Sep 08 2009 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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A scythe is not really functionally different from an axe as far as use in combat. No, you don't use a scythe against a person the way you would use it against a field of grain, and in that sense it was not intentionally designed to be a weapon. But a scythe as a weapon can fulfill the same role as an axe with three advantages: lighter, better reach with the head, and a deeper, more penetrating blow.

Those advantages of course bring out related disadvantages, such as it losing overall destructive power, being easier to damage, and requiring greater accuracy. But give and take is the nature of these type of weapons.

That's not to say that a stick with a couple of sharpened perpendicular spikes wouldn't be more effective, but a scythe is not an impractical weapon even if it is less than ideal. There is probably no swung weapon that can do more damage to a single point, which it does from a distance. Someone with exceptional skill and accuracy could find a scythe to be an ideal weapon, though most likely in a fantasy setting where exceptional skill is so common.
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#21 Sep 08 2009 at 6:26 PM Rating: Excellent
lacesus wrote:
did't ninjas use scythe, well the shorter form of it anyway
NG scythe
Does Ninja Gaiden count?

I'm still holding out for more pitchforks and some flaming torchs, though. Then we can start our own mob of angry townspeople!

Really, as far as effective weapons go even farming implement scythes are no worse than wooden clubs, daggers, most H2H, and axes. They are just low class tools re-appropriated for defense.

Kachi wrote:
There is probably no swung weapon that can do more damage to a single point, which it does from a distance.
not to mention it's very hard to parry due to it's shape.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 10:28pm by shintasama
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#22 Sep 08 2009 at 7:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
not to mention it's very hard to parry due to it's shape.


Hm, that escaped me, but you're right.
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#23 Sep 08 2009 at 8:06 PM Rating: Good
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With all the emphasis they're putting into luring FFXI players over, there will more likely than not be scythes.
#24 Sep 09 2009 at 5:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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The whole "wasn't originally intended as a weapon" argument bugs me.
Using that logic, that means we get to eliminate knives, hammers, axes, sickles, staves, rods, hand to hand, bards, and dancers entirely.

congrats, your choices for game play are now magic, and some form of sword. Hurray variety and imagination!
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#25 Sep 09 2009 at 7:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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How on earth are we seriously debating the awesomeness of a Scythe as a weapon? Come on, people, if it gets to the point where you are actually rationalizing the removal of a weapon like the Scythe from a fantasy RPG ripe with all kinds of dark lore, you have to serious reconsider your motives for playing this game!

To address the original topic, I think it's safe to say that this game will have MORE weapons, not less, what with the emphasis on equipment creating your abilities and all. It would be pretty stupid for SE to leave out the scythe, don't you think?
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#26 Sep 09 2009 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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I would kind of like to see "The Deadliest Warrior" do some comparision tests between a regular scythe and and an axe.

Wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of either to be sure.

BTW - does anyone else just think "that would get stuck in a rib cage or armor segment" when ever they look at the scythe? Maybe it is just because i see it as a combination stabbing / slashing weapon, with stabbing being more likely - but what do i know about scythe combat lol.
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#27 Sep 09 2009 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not realy for or against scythes being in XIV, It would be nice to have a slight redesign on them if they are putting them in though. Something like sharpened on the inside and outside edges would make it a far more versitile weapon. I don't realy expect them to change the blade facing, since most people wouldn't even recognise it as a scythe anymore. :P
#28 Sep 09 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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Well... speaking from a purely theoretical point of view...

The scythe would be a weapon utilized like a couple different items, from the bo staff, spear, and even the nunchaku series of weaponry. Having the outside of the head sharpened would be a wise choice, allowing for versatility in attack angles, including sudden stops and reverses should one have the muscle required. A horizontal swing can be deadly for two reasons, while a vertical would be more difficult to work with. The entire point of the weapon is to keep it moving and utilize the momentum it creates. Your body becomes a fulcrum of raw energy as you continue the path of the weapon and/or utilize it for defensive purposes as well. This also helps with proper weight distribution.

Only a thought.
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#29 Sep 09 2009 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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The sharpened inside versus outside is definitely one of the bigger functional problems with the scythe as a practical weapon, and because of that it is more suited to piercing than slashing. There is also the consideration for having a fully blunt handle. Much of the upper handle of a scythe is bladeless, when it could really afford to be sharp.

But it's definitely less of a slashing weapon. Deila's observation was pretty spot on.
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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#30 Sep 09 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Having the inside edge of the scythe as the sharpened edge pretty much invalidates its usefulness as a weapon.

In order to effectively strike an opponent with the inside edge, your blade would have to travel past your opponent. Therefore, you would have to fight closer to your opponent; which has several disadvantages: 1) you can't parry since your blade is not between you and your opponent 2) you lose any advantage from the length of the weapon 3) your opponent's weapon can be short (and thus more responsive than your weapon).

A scythe is also ineffective as a piercing weapon because the angle of blade isn't in line with your body, requiring a wide swing which is incredibly easy to avoid/parry.

Scythes are the weapons you have the conscripts bring with them from the field to charge into your opposing army and hack at their legs as the conscripts died miserably while your trained forces slowly walk in behind hoping the conscripts injured enough of the opponent to justify the reduced productivity in the fields from losing all your scythes in battle (run-on sentence ftw).

I like these theoretical debates on weaponry :D
#31 Sep 09 2009 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
BTW - does anyone else just think "that would get stuck in a rib cage or armor segment" when ever they look at the scythe?


Agreed. I can't stand the scythe, because every time I imagine swinging it, I can't help but consider spending the next few moments with my foot on a corpse pulling out the blade.

Quote:
Having the inside edge of the scythe as the sharpened edge pretty much invalidates its usefulness as a weapon.


I disagree because it reduces friction and lets the blade slide in and out easier, when piercing.

*Edit:
Quote:
Quote:
Having the inside edge of the scythe as the sharpened edge pretty much invalidates its usefulness as a weapon.


I disagree because it reduces friction and lets the blade slide in and out easier, when piercing.


I mean inside edge sharpened in addition to the ouside edge, not one or the other.

Edited, Sep 9th 2009 3:22pm by Renowaikk
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#32 Sep 09 2009 at 2:35 PM Rating: Good
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Every time you discuss realistic physics for a fantasy based game, God kills a cat girl. Please, think of the cat girls. Its a game where midgets create fire out of thin air and throw it. Its just a game, you should really just relax.
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#33 Sep 09 2009 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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The scythe would be a weapon utilized like a couple different items, from the bo staff, spear, and even the nunchaku series of weaponry. Having the outside of the head sharpened would be a wise choice, allowing for versatility in attack angles, including sudden stops and reverses should one have the muscle required. A horizontal swing can be deadly for two reasons, while a vertical would be more difficult to work with. The entire point of the weapon is to keep it moving and utilize the momentum it creates. Your body becomes a fulcrum of raw energy as you continue the path of the weapon and/or utilize it for defensive purposes as well. This also helps with proper weight distribution.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djQh-7b0Fn8&feature=fvw

This was teh best i could find. Every other demo just looks.. unwieldly.
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#34 Sep 09 2009 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
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I disagree because it reduces friction and lets the blade slide in and out easier, when piercing.


Any curved weapon with a 3-4 inch thick blade was NOT meant for piercing anything.

Thin curved blades are for slicing.

Straight blades with a small cross-section are for piercing.

e.g. katana vs. rapier; yari vs. naginata
#35 Sep 09 2009 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Any curved weapon with a 3-4 inch thick blade was NOT meant for piercing anything.

Thin curved blades are for slicing.


Um, except for the scythe? Angle is not an unimportant factor here. The sharp point is the most functional part of the scythe, not the inner blade.

The key to the scythe is that you achieve the targeted damage of stabbing with all the power of swinging. For all practical, real-life purposes, it's total overkill at the expense of many important aspects of a balanced weapon, but theoretically it is a highly effective piercing weapon. You do however get the range, an uncommon approach angle that could easily throw off seasoned fighters, and as shintasama pointed out, it's night impossible to parry.

It's worth looking into a similar weapon, the kama.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#36 Sep 09 2009 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
Actually it's very easy to parry, and break the weapon because the person has to actually swing it in a wide arc. More likely is you simply get stabbaed while trying to swing it. Also, the tip of most scythes is not made for piercing, it would pierce because of the force, but not as well as a spear that has the force of a thrust behind it. That's why for military scythes they turn the angle of the scythes to be the same as the pole, not perpendicular to it.

So yeah, it makes as much sense as a club or other item not normally intended for warfare, but I haven't seen fantasy artifact clubs. Maces yes, clubs no. But for some reason (because the stereotype of the personification of death uses a scythe, though that's a metaphor for the harvest) its become a pretty standard fantasy weapon, so meh. :P
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#37 Sep 10 2009 at 12:09 AM Rating: Good
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Well, to step into it would be -relatively- easy. To actually parry it, you would get stabbed in the process, hardly making it a legitimate defensive maneuver.

Not sure if I agree with your assessment of a spear being more effective at piercing though. A spear is lighter and more maneuverable without question, but the scythe has considerable power when used by someone who knows how to use their body.

Put it to you this way-- how far can you hit a golfball off a pool table, even with your body's most powerful thrust? Not anywhere near as far as a professional golfer can hit a golf ball (or probably a pool ball, for that matter). The sequencing of muscular levers allows for tremendous force.

Edited, Sep 10th 2009 1:10am by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#38 Sep 10 2009 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Um, except for the scythe? Angle is not an unimportant factor here. The sharp point is the most functional part of the scythe, not the inner blade.

The key to the scythe is that you achieve the targeted damage of stabbing with all the power of swinging. For all practical, real-life purposes, it's total overkill at the expense of many important aspects of a balanced weapon, but theoretically it is a highly effective piercing weapon. You do however get the range, an uncommon approach angle that could easily throw off seasoned fighters, and as shintasama pointed out, it's night impossible to parry.

It's worth looking into a similar weapon, the kama.


The point on a real scythe isn't sharp, it's rounded. Fantasy games have it pointed to look scarier.

The wide blade is a terrible, terrible piercing weapon. As far as the approach angle, it isn't uncommon, in fact it's very very predictable. And the swing is so wide you would never have to parry it in a traditional way. If someone swings a scythe at you in order to "pierce" you, and you step 4-6" back, it will miss. If they swing that wide, open swing, you can step into in and it would all be over.

A kama is small, does have a pointed tip, and it is sharp on both the inside and outside edge. It is completely different than a scythe (the head sensei of my iai school is also the 12th or something headmaster of a kusurigama style which uses a kama attached to a ball and chain...it is a wickedly effective weapon).

Quote:
Well, to step into it would be -relatively- easy. To actually parry it, you would get stabbed in the process, hardly making it a legitimate defensive maneuver.

Not sure if I agree with your assessment of a spear being more effective at piercing though. A spear is lighter and more maneuverable without question, but the scythe has considerable power when used by someone who knows how to use their body.

Put it to you this way-- how far can you hit a golfball off a pool table, even with your body's most powerful thrust? Not anywhere near as far as a professional golfer can hit a golf ball (or probably a pool ball, for that matter). The sequencing of muscular levers allows for tremendous force.


It would be terribly easy to step in on it. Parrying would never be necessary unless someone surprised you. And any weapon is effective with enough surprise.

And a spear is the most efficient, effective piercing weapon in the history of martial combat. Every civilization, even today, has used a spear-like polearm as it's primary piercing weapon. It is a shining example of a tool build perfectly for a single purpose.

Your analogy isn't applicable. The golf ball doesn't move. Yes, if you were to swing into a hay bail with a scythe, you could probably "pierce" it. Who cares? It's not a martial weapon. If your opponent is stupid enough to stand still and take a hit, yes a scythe, a rock, a rubber chicken would be effective. What if you miss? You are out of options while all other true martial weapons take that into consideration.

In my opinion, the blade angle, the blade width, the awkward impact angle, the lack of balance, the lack of an outside cutting edge, the wide predictable swing, the short range (the balance and angle really limit it's range) all make it a poor weapon to use in combat. I'd take a pitchfork over a scythe.

But they look cool as **** in games. Much cooler than a pitchfork.
#39 Sep 10 2009 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Spears are for manly men anyways. Dragoons jump and ambush DRK's when they least expect it. Then their wyvern pet eats their corpse.
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#40 Sep 10 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
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The point on a real scythe isn't sharp, it's rounded. Fantasy games have it pointed to look scarier.


I thought it was a given that we were talking about a scythe with a pointed tip. I've actually used a real scythe before; I realize that they're not as they're depicted in fantasy settings.

Quote:
As far as the approach angle, it isn't uncommon, in fact it's very very predictable. And the swing is so wide you would never have to parry it in a traditional way. If someone swings a scythe at you in order to "pierce" you, and you step 4-6" back, it will miss. If they swing that wide, open swing, you can step into in and it would all be over.


It's uncommon in the context of the type of weapon that it is. If another weapon such as a spear or a sword approaches from that angle, they can be parried easily. Much of a skilled fighter's actions are conditioned reflexes, so while parrying might be a normal response, it can also be a fatal one.

As for your point that it only has to miss by a few inches, that's true of most weapons. I've already acknowledged that a scythe requires greater accuracy than other weapons and is a better theoretical weapon than a real-life one.

Quote:
It would be terribly easy to step in on it. Parrying would never be necessary unless someone surprised you. And any weapon is effective with enough surprise.


That depends wholly on how quick and powerful the wielder is. Surprising people is relatively easy-- very easy with enough speed and minimal telegraphing. A well trained and conditioned human versus another human who is likely not conditioned against a scythe, well... the fact is, fighting against someone with a scythe is already a pretty big surprise on its own.

Quote:
And a spear is the most efficient, effective piercing weapon in the history of martial combat. Every civilization, even today, has used a spear-like polearm as it's primary piercing weapon. It is a shining example of a tool build perfectly for a single purpose.


And as a result, it's a very predictable weapon. I don't question the spear's efficiency, though. But it's not capable of nearly as much piercing power as a scythe.

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Your analogy isn't applicable. The golf ball doesn't move.


Fine. The golf balls are moving. My analogy becomes applicable again.

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What if you miss? You are out of options while all other true martial weapons take that into consideration.


Virtually every weapon leaves you open if you miss, some more than others. Yes, the scythe is on the extreme end here, but it's not alone.

I am not arguing that the scythe is a good weapon in real life. It's a powerful weapon. But it doesn't take much power to kill a human, so the scythe ends up being overkill for what it does, and the situations it could be useful for don't present themselves in real life.

But hypothetically it's an extremely powerful weapon, and when you manipulate the speed, strength, and accuracy of a fictional character disproportionately to their evasiveness (par the course for fantasy, where missing is for flunkies), it becomes a very effective weapon. A similar effectiveness could apply to a human, but not an average one.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#41 Sep 10 2009 at 6:37 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
The point on a real scythe isn't sharp, it's rounded.
The antique farming instrument one at my great-grandmother's house has a pointed tip (blunt on outside edge obviously, but that's not hard to fix in a pinch), it just depends on who made it.
Quote:
If someone swings a scythe at you in order to "pierce" you, and you step 4-6" back, it will miss. If they swing that wide, open swing, you can step into in and it would all be over.
1) "stepping 4-6" back" in time to dodge a blow from someone w/ intent to kill is in no way easy, particularly if you're carrying around a heavy *** sword/axe/shield or armor. A fencer could do it, but a scythe is a re-appropriated peasant weapon, so that's unlikely to be their opponent.
2) As with a bo,you can shift grip closer to the center and drastically speed up coming out of the swing (at a temporary loss of range/power) to be ready to go again or keep the opponent guessing your piercing range.
Quote:
It would be terribly easy to step in on it.
If they're swinging and you "step into it" you're going to get close-lined, and while you could stab the wielder, as the person dies/falls/attempts to get away they're going to get you with the "slashing" end.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#42 Sep 10 2009 at 7:11 PM Rating: Excellent
13 posts
Ralrra the Flatulent wrote:
Kirbster wrote:
Dark Harvesters.

You'll be able to use Blood Weapon on trees and wheat.

You forgot about Cross Reaper.


Crop Reaper?
#43 Sep 10 2009 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
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375 posts
Quote:

I am not arguing that the scythe is a good weapon in real life. It's a powerful weapon. But it doesn't take much power to kill a human, so the scythe ends up being overkill for what it does, and the situations it could be useful for don't present themselves in real life.

But hypothetically it's an extremely powerful weapon, and when you manipulate the speed, strength, and accuracy of a fictional character disproportionately to their evasiveness (par the course for fantasy, where missing is for flunkies), it becomes a very effective weapon. A similar effectiveness could apply to a human, but not an average one.


OK...my only point has been if I was given a choice of weapons, scythe would be very low on the list.

Quote:
The antique farming instrument one at my great-grandmother's house has a pointed tip (blunt on outside edge obviously, but that's not hard to fix in a pinch), it just depends on who made it.


The one at my family's farm was more rounded, probably so you didn't cut yourself while using it. I do agree as soon as you sharpen the outside edge it becomes more effective since you can cut while pushing the blade away from you as opposed to pulling it towards you.

Quote:
1) "stepping 4-6" back" in time to dodge a blow from someone w/ intent to kill is in no way easy, particularly if you're carrying around a heavy *** sword/axe/shield or armor. A fencer could do it, but a scythe is a re-appropriated peasant weapon, so that's unlikely to be their opponent.


My entire iai school is based on the idea of inviting an attack, making it miss by a fraction and countering. I also believe the amount of time it takes for the blade to swing around is too long to not telegraph your intended angle. Just look at the pic you posted Shinta, the amount of time it would take for that scythe to travel that much distance would give anyone with any idea how to fight a light year of time to respond.

Now, if we are talking peasant/conscript on peasant/conscript combat then who cares, amateurs fighting armatures is not grounds for judging a weapons worth.

Quote:
If they're swinging and you "step into it" you're going to get close-lined, and while you could stab the wielder, as the person dies/falls/attempts to get away they're going to get you with the "slashing" end.


It is really hard to illustrate using words, so I'll just say in my opinion the scythe guy is screwed.

Now, if you sharped the outside edge and cut up from below...now I can start seeing some applications...but as long as the inside edge is the only one that is sharp...the options are limited.

Edit: my iai school


Edited, Sep 10th 2009 8:43pm by akisushiva
#44 Sep 10 2009 at 7:55 PM Rating: Good
That picture I posted was ridiculous, and iai and western fighting styles aren't close, but I agree it wouldn't be anywhere close to my top pick for medieval weapon of choice either.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#45 Sep 10 2009 at 8:04 PM Rating: Decent
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The scythe I used actually had a flat end.

Well, I would assume that anyone who aims to use a scythe in combat is strong enough and fast enough that they can attack quickly enough that it will not be easy to dodge (failing that, stupid enough that they're screwed regardless). I mean, put it to you this way-- while the scythe was not originally designed as a weapon, it was designed to be used by humans for an efficient purpose. It's not -that- heavy or unwieldy.

One thing to remember is that because of the angle, you can actually guard with the handle as you pierce with the blade.

Exploiting the opening after an opponent's attack is a core principle of the style I use as well. I think I could actually use a scythe as an effective weapon; however, I was actually thinking that I'd like to try using a katana with a scythe-like end. I've been thinking this for weeks purely because of its potential. Note that I've trained expressly to be fast with a sword for years.

Of course, I don't think they make the kind of weapon I'm thinking of.

Edited, Sep 10th 2009 9:04pm by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#46 Sep 11 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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375 posts
Quote:
That picture I posted was ridiculous, and iai and western fighting styles aren't close, but I agree it wouldn't be anywhere close to my top pick for medieval weapon of choice either.


fundamentally they are very close. The guy who leads my iai group also trains in a western style by italian master Fiore dei Liberi and there are some incredible similarities. Of course the nuances changed as armor and technology changed, but the fundamentals are the same.

Quote:
I mean, put it to you this way-- while the scythe was not originally designed as a weapon, it was designed to be used by humans for an efficient purpose. It's not -that- heavy or unwieldy.


Sure, however, if you used a scythe in combat the way you do in the field, you would be trying to cut all your opponents right at the knee cap. It's designed to be very easy to move back and forth about 1-2 feet off the ground in a side to side manner. And it is very efficient in that regard....that doesn't mean it translates well to a swinging weapon.

If I had to fight with a scythe, I'd use it mostly as staff style weapon, try to stun the opponent with the shaft and then get the blade behind them and pull it towards me...I would never swing it around, I think it would create too many openings.
#47 Sep 11 2009 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Hm, that wouldn't be my approach. Actually, I would probably tend to start off with low swings if I were actually on the offense.

But when your opponent is skilled, you have to be sure that what looks like an opening isn't really a trap. Being able to create intentional openings to draw out predictable counters is a vital part of a balanced ********
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#48 Sep 11 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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375 posts
Problem with low swings is your head is exposed. It's hard to parry a swing to the head when your blade is swinging low.

[quote]But when your opponent is skilled, you have to be sure that what looks like an opening isn't really a trap. Being able to create intentional openings to draw out predictable counters is a vital part of a balanced ****************

So far, every time I've free spared, I just sit back and wait for my opponent to attack so I can counter and try and defeat them. I hate having to initiate an attack, I always feel so open. If I ever had to fight someone as patient as I am, I'd be in trouble...
#49 Sep 11 2009 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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9,997 posts
Heh, a match between us would probably be incredibly boring.

It suits me because I don't attack unless attacked on principle.

Quote:
Problem with low swings is your head is exposed. It's hard to parry a swing to the head when your blade is swinging low.


That might be a problem against another long range weapon (so I wouldn't do it), but against a shorter weapon it's a good defensive attack because most people aren't foolish enough to risk having their legs chopped off to exploit an opening. Plus again, as a staff type weapon you still have the ability to parry any actual attempts with the staff while you continue to hack at the kneecaps.

Edited, Sep 11th 2009 2:07pm by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#50 Sep 11 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
I would definitely treat it like a bo, but it seems like it would be more effective to get a piercing blow to the mid-side and twist out than to attempt to "pull" it through the opponent's back (I just don't think you have the leverage to do so effectively). If I was going to come from behind though I'd definitely go ankle, slide it on the ground behind them gripping the far end, and jump backwards to pull through in order to abuse your range as much as possible.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#51 Sep 11 2009 at 10:23 PM Rating: Good
*
145 posts
I'm not sure how effective a scyth would be but zasalamel from sc4 can rock it. I would think its as effective as a wooden staff if not more so because it has a blade on the top. However, going back to the title of the thread, yes it would be awesome if you could play as Batman.
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