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DirectX 10 Vs. DirectX 11Follow

#1 Sep 08 2009 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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Hey everyone. I've been having PC problems lately and been in the middle of solving them and generally upgrading my PC. So I haven't been around and I'm sorry if this has been asked. I looked for a thread pertaining to this matter and didn't find one, so if I skimmed past it please forgive me.

I'm trying to figure out and get feedback on this issue, as to whether FFXIV will use DirectX 10 or DirectX 11. Currently I just bought a EVGA GTX275 for my gaming rig, although I'm contemplating taking it back. I hear in the next month or few the new DirectX 11 cards will be coming out. I hear they will be starting at just under 200 dollars, and going up from there. I believe they include the ATI 5800 series and the Nvidia 300 series. Also if anyone has anymore information on them I would be greatly appreciative for it.

Currently hardly any games even use DirectX 10 as is, and DirectX 11 will require windows Vista/7 to work. I'm not sure if it will just be a available option, no option at all, or a complete requirement. I'm also trying to keep in mind Beta will be starting before terribly long, and I want to be prepared for that. So, what does everyone think?

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 4:29pm by EndlessJourney
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#2 Sep 08 2009 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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Nothing reported as far as I've seen. If I had to bet, I would say 10. XP is still used by a vast number of people (All of my home PCs run XP as opposed to Vista except for my laptop, due to them being older and generally not having enough RAM to run Vista efficiently.) Unless they release an 11 pack for XP, which they probably won't do because it's going to be obsolete in the foreseeable future, it just wouldn't be a great move on Enix's part.


It also depends on what limitations PS3 has, I'm sure.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 7:38pm by Zackary
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#3 Sep 08 2009 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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I'm sure that SE will be taking advantage of DX10 stuff, but there's no way they wouldn't be supporting DX9c for XP systems as well.
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#4 Sep 08 2009 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Kirbster wrote:
I'm sure that SE will be taking advantage of DX10 stuff, but there's no way they wouldn't be supporting DX9c for XP systems as well.
Do you know anything about the PS3's OS? All I honestly know about it is that it works via fairy dust and magic.
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#5 Sep 08 2009 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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I was wondering the same thing myself, as my PC is almost 5 years old now and the only part I've really upgraded in the graphics card. I'm planning on buying a new one once I hear about a release date for FFXIV.

I was looking around at some cards and was considering getting 2 gtx295s for an SLI setup, but then I read that while older cards will support most features of DirectX 11, only cards made for Direct X 11 will be able to support all features.

So would it be a waste of money to buy anything other than a card made for Direct X 11?
I'm also guessing that FFXIV will be using Direct X 10 technology because it will cater to more people. Not everyone has high end video cards.

I also guess it depends on whether you are going to be playing any other games. If you plan on buying a lot of games in the next few years and playing in addition to FFXIV, then you might want to save your money for a Direct X 11 card.

But if FFXIV is all you really plan on playing then I'm sure you'll be just fine with a GTX275.

I'm pretty certain I'll just be getting two 295s that will last me a long time, because FFXIV is all I plan on playing (and all I'll have time to play). I'll also be using Windows 7 anyway.

In a worst case scenario, keep the GTX275 for now and if there is some major announcement that the game will require a Direct X 11 card (which I highly doubt since, as I mentioned before, Direct x 10 cards will support most features of 11), then just sell the GTX275 and buy a new card at a small loss.

But how many people are going to buy a direct x 11 card just for ffxiv? Probably not to many.
I wouldn't recommend sending the card back. You know they may charge you a restocking fee for the card, and that can be somewhat expensive.

EDIT: Especially if you bought the card from NewEgg. I love NewEgg, but I had to send back a card once and they charged me a big restocking fee.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 8:18pm by Finaa
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#6 Sep 08 2009 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Zackary wrote:
Kirbster wrote:
I'm sure that SE will be taking advantage of DX10 stuff, but there's no way they wouldn't be supporting DX9c for XP systems as well.
Do you know anything about the PS3's OS? All I honestly know about it is that it works via fairy dust and magic.


On the technical side? As much as you do: magic and fairy dust.

I remember SE stating in an interview that XIV was being developed for Windows first, and that the PS3 version would be a port, so I'm unsure as to what limitations the Devs will be faced with.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 4:52pm by Kirbster
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#7 Sep 08 2009 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Kirbster wrote:
Quote:
Zackary wrote:
Kirbster wrote:
I'm sure that SE will be taking advantage of DX10 stuff, but there's no way they wouldn't be supporting DX9c for XP systems as well.
Do you know anything about the PS3's OS? All I honestly know about it is that it works via fairy dust and magic.


On the technical side? As much as you do: magic and fairy dust.

I remember SE stating in an interview that XIV was being developed for Windows first, and that the PS3 version would be a port, so I'm unsure as to what limitations the Devs will be faced with.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 4:52pm by Kirbster
Thank god. I didn't see them say they were going to focus on Windows first. I was so worried we would end up in the perpetual "But we can't because of PS2!" situation again.
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#8 Sep 08 2009 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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Actually SE has talked about this shortly after FFXIV's announcement. They said they plan on using the latest DirectX at the time of beta...give me a minute and I'll find the quote.

Here it is:

Quote:
In regards to the PC version, the game will utilize the most current version of Direct X that is out when beta testing begins.


From here.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 5:17pm by Yogtheterrible
#9 Sep 08 2009 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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Yogtheterrible wrote:
Actually SE has talked about this shortly after FFXIV's announcement. They said they plan on using the latest DirectX at the time of beta...give me a minute and I'll find the quote.

Here it is:

Quote:
In regards to the PC version, the game will utilize the most current version of Direct X that is out when beta testing begins.


From here.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 5:17pm by Yogtheterrible


So the question is... Will BETA begin before or after the release of the DirectX 11 cards. Also we must keep in mind, square enix doesn't always hold true to their word. Another thing to keep in mind is, as many others have said, you will be excluding a GREAT deal of people if they do make it DirectX 11 only. I still personally think it will be available with DirectX 10.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 5:21pm by EndlessJourney
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#10 Sep 08 2009 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
you will be excluding a GREAT deal of people if they do make it DirectX 11 only. I still personally think it will be available with DirectX 10.
Pretty much what I said in my original post, yeah. They're not going to exclude mass amounts of people.
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#11 Sep 08 2009 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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It's important to remember that even though DirectX 10 was released almost three years ago, there are currently only 32 games that actually support it.

At the moment, only six upcoming games have confirmed DirectX 11 support.

I doubt FFXIV will require DirectX 11 compatable hardware, despite that quote.
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#12 Sep 08 2009 at 9:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zackary wrote:
Kirbster wrote:
I'm sure that SE will be taking advantage of DX10 stuff, but there's no way they wouldn't be supporting DX9c for XP systems as well.
Do you know anything about the PS3's OS? All I honestly know about it is that it works via fairy dust and magic.


The PS3 doesn't use any type of DirectX because it is a proprietary MS format.

Instead, it uses a version of OpenGL designed for embedded systems.
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#13 Sep 08 2009 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:
Quote:
Zackary wrote:
Kirbster wrote:
I'm sure that SE will be taking advantage of DX10 stuff, but there's no way they wouldn't be supporting DX9c for XP systems as well.
Do you know anything about the PS3's OS? All I honestly know about it is that it works via fairy dust and magic.


On the technical side? As much as you do: magic and fairy dust.

I remember SE stating in an interview that XIV was being developed for Windows first, and that the PS3 version would be a port, so I'm unsure as to what limitations the Devs will be faced with.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 4:52pm by Kirbster


The Crystal Tools engine is cross platform from the start, so really, development on all platforms is pretty much concurrent.

It is nice, however that it seems to be able to scale well on the PC. At any rate, it should be much better than the port of FFXI.

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#14 Sep 08 2009 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Pickins wrote:
Zackary wrote:
Kirbster wrote:
I'm sure that SE will be taking advantage of DX10 stuff, but there's no way they wouldn't be supporting DX9c for XP systems as well.
Do you know anything about the PS3's OS? All I honestly know about it is that it works via fairy dust and magic.


The PS3 doesn't use any type of DirectX because it is a proprietary MS format.

Instead, it uses a version of OpenGL designed for embedded systems.
Yeah, I was just doing some research on it over the last few hours actually. It's going to be interesting to see how they deal with it, now that I know just how different a regular OS is to the PS3. The PS2 OS was very standard, and it dealt with files in a very similar way to your average hard drive, but that's not so much the case this time around.

Hopefully it's so different that they develop the two separately, so we don't run into the same old road block we did with XI.
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#15 Sep 09 2009 at 6:17 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
On the technical side? As much as you do: magic and fairy dust.

I remember SE stating in an interview that XIV was being developed for Windows first, and that the PS3 version would be a port, so I'm unsure as to what limitations the Devs will be faced with.


I keep seeing people saying this and it's the opposite of what I've read. I've read just about every article at ZAM, Eorzeapedia and JP Button and I've yet to see them say they anything on the technical aspects of what platform they are targeting as the main one that they will then work on developing the other(s) from.

In this interview about Crystal Tools the target platform is PS3 then you go back and compile for other platforms. Every article I've read on multiplatform development has basically said if you want to have a level playing field on all platforms then you must start with PS3 targeted and go from there otherwise PS3 will lag behind in performance too long into the project.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18246

Quote:
It's always a challenge to do multiplatform -- how did you address the multiplatform issue for contemporary systems?


Quote:
TM: Actually, there's SPUs for PS3, and multicore for 360 already [optimized]. What really matters is the size of VRAM. But the VRAM size can be handled by adjusting texture sizing, so that can be taken care of. In that sense, I don't think it's that big of a deal that you have to start with the PS3, technically. The PS3 is a very powerful machine, and it's very expansive. So as long as the converting process can be handled correctly, it shouldn't be a problem.


Edited, Sep 9th 2009 10:22am by kgav

Edited, Sep 9th 2009 10:30am by kgav
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#16 Sep 09 2009 at 6:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Remember, as long as you have a recent Geforce card (i.e 8xxx+) It will be forward compatible with DX11

The same can't be said for any ATI card though

You're fine, don't fall into the consumers trap, and don't bother with a DX11 card
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#17 Sep 09 2009 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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ditx wrote:
Remember, as long as you have a recent Geforce card (i.e 8xxx+) It will be forward compatible with DX11

The same can't be said for any ATI card though

You're fine, don't fall into the consumers trap, and don't bother with a DX11 card


Really? Nvidia Cards are forward compatible for DX11? I was told differently but I was probably told wrong. If this is the case I'll just keep the GTX275.
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#18 Sep 09 2009 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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EndlessJourney wrote:
ditx wrote:
Remember, as long as you have a recent Geforce card (i.e 8xxx+) It will be forward compatible with DX11

The same can't be said for any ATI card though

You're fine, don't fall into the consumers trap, and don't bother with a DX11 card


Really? Nvidia Cards are forward compatible for DX11? I was told differently but I was probably told wrong. If this is the case I'll just keep the GTX275.


Actually, I'm pretty sure that I read that while DX10 Nvidia cards will be able to support some features of DX11, they won't be able to support all.
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#19 Sep 09 2009 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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ditx wrote:
Remember, as long as you have a recent Geforce card (i.e 8xxx+) It will be forward compatible with DX11

The same can't be said for any ATI card though

You're fine, don't fall into the consumers trap, and don't bother with a DX11 card


Do you have a link to back that statement up?

I follow the hardware scene pretty closely, and I haven't heard any news like that.

Edit:
Finaa wrote:

Actually, I'm pretty sure that I read that while DX10 Nvidia cards will be able to support some features of DX11, they won't be able to support all.


This is more accurate from what I've heard.

Edited, Sep 9th 2009 6:33pm by Pickins
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#20 Sep 09 2009 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
I have heard that if you hold a PS3 up to your ear you can hear a heartbeat.

Its been said that companies have to hire special programmers to make games for PS3. These programmers have to take special courses in higher dimensional programming in the mountains of Tibet. The course is said to be so grueling that only one out of every one hundred survive.

I have also heard that you should not leave your PS3 unattended around small pets as its liable to attack them.
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#21 Sep 10 2009 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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kgav wrote:
Quote:
On the technical side? As much as you do: magic and fairy dust.

I remember SE stating in an interview that XIV was being developed for Windows first, and that the PS3 version would be a port, so I'm unsure as to what limitations the Devs will be faced with.


I keep seeing people saying this and it's the opposite of what I've read. I've read just about every article at ZAM, Eorzeapedia and JP Button and I've yet to see them say they anything on the technical aspects of what platform they are targeting as the main one that they will then work on developing the other(s) from.

In this interview about Crystal Tools the target platform is PS3 then you go back and compile for other platforms. Every article I've read on multiplatform development has basically said if you want to have a level playing field on all platforms then you must start with PS3 targeted and go from there otherwise PS3 will lag behind in performance too long into the project.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18246

Quote:
It's always a challenge to do multiplatform -- how did you address the multiplatform issue for contemporary systems?


Quote:
TM: Actually, there's SPUs for PS3, and multicore for 360 already [optimized]. What really matters is the size of VRAM. But the VRAM size can be handled by adjusting texture sizing, so that can be taken care of. In that sense, I don't think it's that big of a deal that you have to start with the PS3, technically. The PS3 is a very powerful machine, and it's very expansive. So as long as the converting process can be handled correctly, it shouldn't be a problem.


Edited, Sep 9th 2009 10:22am by kgav

Edited, Sep 9th 2009 10:30am by kgav


It is possible you bolded the wrong part, depending on how you view the sentence:

Quote:
TM: Actually, there's SPUs for PS3, and multicore for 360 already [optimized]. What really matters is the size of VRAM. But the VRAM size can be handled by adjusting texture sizing, so that can be taken care of. In that sense, I don't think it's that big of a deal that you have to start with the PS3, technically. The PS3 is a very powerful machine, and it's very expansive. So as long as the converting process can be handled correctly, it shouldn't be a problem.
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#22 Sep 10 2009 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Pickins wrote:
ditx wrote:
Remember, as long as you have a recent Geforce card (i.e 8xxx+) It will be forward compatible with DX11

The same can't be said for any ATI card though

You're fine, don't fall into the consumers trap, and don't bother with a DX11 card


Do you have a link to back that statement up?

I follow the hardware scene pretty closely, and I haven't heard any news like that.

Edit:
Finaa wrote:

Actually, I'm pretty sure that I read that while DX10 Nvidia cards will be able to support some features of DX11, they won't be able to support all.


This is more accurate from what I've heard.

Edited, Sep 9th 2009 6:33pm by Pickins


Neither current NVidia or ATI(if you exclude the 5000 series) cards can use DX11 features. Should go without saying, but only DX11 cards can use DX11 features. That's not to say you won't be able to play DX11 games without a DX11 card. Games will most likely continue to support at least DX10, probably DX9 as well.

Edited, Sep 10th 2009 10:00pm by valid
#23 Sep 10 2009 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
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Well, based on "PS3 Limitations" *Ahem*, it is only capable of DX9. So I would imagine that at most, the game would run at DX10 on PC unless SE tries to make the PC version the best it can be and the PS3 version the best it can be but we all know what's currently happening with FFXIII on the 360/PS3 so I doubt it.
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#24 Sep 10 2009 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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EpedemicOptikz wrote:
Well, based on "PS3 Limitations" *Ahem*, it is only capable of DX9. So I would imagine that at most, the game would run at DX10 on PC unless SE tries to make the PC version the best it can be and the PS3 version the best it can be but we all know what's currently happening with FFXIII on the 360/PS3 so I doubt it.


Based on "Microsoft Limitations", PS3 doesn't have DX. o0;
#25 Sep 10 2009 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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valid wrote:
EpedemicOptikz wrote:
Well, based on "PS3 Limitations" *Ahem*, it is only capable of DX9. So I would imagine that at most, the game would run at DX10 on PC unless SE tries to make the PC version the best it can be and the PS3 version the best it can be but we all know what's currently happening with FFXIII on the 360/PS3 so I doubt it.


Based on "Microsoft Limitations", PS3 doesn't have DX. o0;


That's true but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the RSX a DX9 card, sharing the same technology as a 7800?

www.bit-tech.net/bits/2005/07/11/nvidia_rsx_interview/2
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#26 Sep 11 2009 at 1:53 AM Rating: Good
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The PS3, like previous generations is an OpenGL based graphics card, it may be designed based on an nvidia card that was DX9 but at least as far as I am aware, Sony has always used OpenGL architecture. As Pickens said:

Quote:
The PS3 doesn't use any type of DirectX because it is a proprietary MS format.

Instead, it uses a version of OpenGL designed for embedded systems.
#27 Sep 11 2009 at 2:03 AM Rating: Good
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directx is a microsoft software.
amd/nvidia have licensen to use directx in their cards

sony doesn't have a directx license for ps3, so using it would mean being sued by microsoft
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#28 Sep 11 2009 at 7:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
It is possible you bolded the wrong part, depending on how you view the sentence:


No, it's pretty clear he says "you have to start with the PS3" the conversion is from the PS3 start to the other platforms, PC or 360.

You see the PS3 has the Cell Processor and a nVidia RSX GPU based on the 7800GTX. The Cell Processor has a PPE and 7 SPEs(really 8 but due to initial production yields 1 is disabled to allow more processors to be available). The PPE is basically your standard CPU core, the SPEs are specialized Cores that handle specific types of calculations very quickly. So the Cell has 8 cores.

Now ask yourself this question,

Is it easier to start with a complex system and simplify it, or is it easier to start with a simple system and add complexity.

In general it is easier to take a complex system and simplify than add complexity to something simple.

I've read a lot of articles on PS3 development, If developers start designing for the Cell Processor they break things up more and assign them to the SPEs better. You see the nVidia RSX is a Direct3d 9.x capable GPU so it can do things in OpenGL at about the level of a Direct3d 9.x card, but you can use one of the SPEs to make up the difference and have it handle a specific area the RSX is lacking like surface reflections on water and get the game to look like the level of Direct3d 10.

If you develop for PC or 360 then port to the PS3 you have a lot less multi-threaded code, you have to then go back and try to break things apart and it is time consuming and buggy. That's why you see articles about a PS3 game having bad frame rates compared to the 360 version at a gameshow. The PS3 version the developer is basically cramming everything through the PPE and the GPU and didn't segment things out to the SPEs to even out the workload.

The way Developers now work is the Big-Dogs develop their own in-house development environment. PC workstations and server, common assets, all the same models, textures, sounds, animations and so forth. They keep is as platform agnostic as possible and then compile it out to the target platform.

A good example is this: http://software.intel.com/en-us/videos/gdc09-multiplatfom-game-development-with-crytek39s-cryengine-3/

the PS3 and 360 are developer systems that can be tied into the PC workstation, so the build can be pushed to them in realtime.

In a way it is almost irrelevant, because they are compiling out for each target platform from a more generalized agnostic codebase than the way things were done for FFXI. FFXI was built as a PS2 game, FFXIV is a multi-platform title, there is a world of difference between porting and compiling.

Edited, Sep 11th 2009 11:40am by kgav
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#29 Sep 11 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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^ very nice post, kgav.


valid wrote:

Neither current NVidia or ATI(if you exclude the 5000 series) cards can use DX11 features. Should go without saying, but only DX11 cards can use DX11 features. That's not to say you won't be able to play DX11 games without a DX11 card. Games will most likely continue to support at least DX10, probably DX9 as well.


Didn't DX10.1 add tessellation, which was one of the key points in DX11?

That's what I was referring to, but I could be wrong...

Edited, Sep 11th 2009 12:57pm by Pickins
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#30 Sep 11 2009 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yes, thank you for putting that so succinctly Kgav, it's a fascinating post, it's very interesting to see the thought process that goes into accounting for the SPEs on the PS3.

As for DX 10.1 having tessellation, DX 10.1 was a very small incremental superset of DX 10. It was more of a refinement than an actually addition, and as far as I know, it did not add tessellation. It did use and require Shader Model 4.1 (rather than 4.0) but other than that, I don't know of any major changes. I could be wrong though, DirectX is not my forte.

Edited, Sep 11th 2009 1:06pm by Hulan
#31 Sep 11 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks, I'm just a novice. I have been fascinated with the Cell Processor and been reading about it since it was unveiled. So I've read a lot about OpenGL too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor)
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/02/cell-1.ars
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/02/cell-2.ars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL
http://www.opengl.org/

In all the reading it comes down to there are a lot of different ways to get the same results. The "Limitations" of the consoles of the past don't really apply to the PS3 or 360. When developers approach the challenge in the proper manner and put the time and effort into optimizing the code for each platform the end result is nearly identical.

I would think that, they are not making a full version of the game for PC then porting to PS3 nor a full version of the game for PS3 then porting to PC. They are concurrently make PC & PS3. They should be compiling out PC & PS3 builds and testing, evaluating, comparing, tweaking and fixing each simultaneously.

SE has to be doing this because the SPEs are vector processing units, so they can't just send any old code to them. In order to take advantage of the SPEs you have to program for them. Now the PPE portion of the Cell is a general CPU core, in fact it's so much so that the Cell's PPE is what the 360's Xenon's 3 cores are based on. Programming for the 360 is easier because it's pretty much like programming for a PC. The Xenon has altivec units(vector processors) built into each core not as powerful as the SPEs just as Intel has SSE for vector processing so where vector processing is essential to the PS3 is a boost to the 360 or PC.

So, I had read an article about Sony's PhyreEngine a cross-platform development environment for PS3 & PC and they explain that if you program for PS3 and then recompile for PC you get a better game even on the PC because you just made your game more multi-threaded and vector intensive.

Here is an example of using the SPE(SPU) to make up for the GPU in the PS3. Dynamic Lighting and Volumetric shading are DX10 level APIs but using a SPE you get the same effect on PS3. You see DX9, DX10, DX11 are API, shortcuts pointing to a library of code. If the Library of code is not available for the GPU to execute, on a Console one of the cores can execute the code to get the same effect.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gdc-09-phyre-engine/47235?type=flv

Edited, Sep 11th 2009 4:15pm by kgav

Edited, Sep 11th 2009 4:18pm by kgav
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#32 Sep 13 2009 at 4:54 AM Rating: Decent
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For the record, it's almost irrelevant to the PS3 whether a game was coded with advanced post-dxp effects due to the Cell being able to render to the framebuffer. A prime example would be the raytraced clouds in Warhawk. You won't see a 360 or a Geforce 7800 do that anytime soon (read: ever.)

How the developers retool their code to run on one platform or another and the version of DX or GL tools depends entirely on the scalability of their engine. Oh, and for the record, the RSX being called a 7800 is a myth, as the 7800 did not have hdcp support.
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#33 Sep 13 2009 at 5:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Lefein wrote:
For the record, it's almost irrelevant to the PS3 whether a game was coded with advanced post-dxp effects due to the Cell being able to render to the framebuffer. A prime example would be the raytraced clouds in Warhawk. You won't see a 360 or a Geforce 7800 do that anytime soon (read: ever.)

How the developers retool their code to run on one platform or another and the version of DX or GL tools depends entirely on the scalability of their engine. Oh, and for the record, the RSX being called a 7800 is a myth, as the 7800 did not have hdcp support.
Who are you and how did you manage to get a 10k title without me knowing? Smiley: dubious
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#34 Sep 13 2009 at 5:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Zackary wrote:
Lefein wrote:
For the record, it's almost irrelevant to the PS3 whether a game was coded with advanced post-dxp effects due to the Cell being able to render to the framebuffer. A prime example would be the raytraced clouds in Warhawk. You won't see a 360 or a Geforce 7800 do that anytime soon (read: ever.)

How the developers retool their code to run on one platform or another and the version of DX or GL tools depends entirely on the scalability of their engine. Oh, and for the record, the RSX being called a 7800 is a myth, as the 7800 did not have hdcp support.
Who are you and how did you manage to get a 10k title without me knowing? Smiley: dubious


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#35 Sep 13 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Zackary wrote:
Nothing reported as far as I've seen. If I had to bet, I would say 10. XP is still used by a vast number of people


DirectX 10 is only supported in Vista and Windows 7. There is no XP version.

Kirbster wrote:
I'm sure that SE will be taking advantage of DX10 stuff, but there's no way they wouldn't be supporting DX9c for XP systems as well.


They already said that FFXIV will be Vista only (and by extension Windows 7)

Edited, Sep 13th 2009 6:26pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#36 Sep 13 2009 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
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EndlessJourney wrote:
Yogtheterrible wrote:
Actually SE has talked about this shortly after FFXIV's announcement. They said they plan on using the latest DirectX at the time of beta...give me a minute and I'll find the quote.

Here it is:

Quote:
In regards to the PC version, the game will utilize the most current version of Direct X that is out when beta testing begins.


From here.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 5:17pm by Yogtheterrible


So the question is... Will BETA begin before or after the release of the DirectX 11 cards. Also we must keep in mind, square enix doesn't always hold true to their word. Another thing to keep in mind is, as many others have said, you will be excluding a GREAT deal of people if they do make it DirectX 11 only. I still personally think it will be available with DirectX 10.

Edited, Sep 8th 2009 5:21pm by EndlessJourney


The thing you have to remember is that just because it uses DirectX 11 doesn't mean that it will require a fully DirectX 11 compliant card. For example, while FFXI uses DirectX 8, it only uses 3D hardware features found on DirectX 7 compliant cards because at the time it came out DirectX 8 had just been released and few cards supported the full feature set of DirectX 8 (and those that did were very expensive). Nevertheless DirectX 7 cards could run DirectX 8 applications provided they didn't use any DirectX 8 exclusive hardware functions. There was even some advantage to doing this because DirextX 8 was more efficient than DirectX 7 even when using only DirectX 7 hardware features.

Despite only using DirectX 7 hardware features we're still better off with it using DirectX 8.0 from a compatibility standpoint. If it were a DirectX 7 application there's a good chance FFXI wouldn't work with modern computers at all. Many DirectX 7 apps are broken on modern computers and nobody has any interest in fixing them.

Edited, Sep 13th 2009 6:37pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#37 Sep 13 2009 at 10:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I remember that SE stated that they'll be using technology in XIV, that will be new-ish at the time of release so as not to make a game that will be outdated tech wise too soon. I don't know if this means DX11, but I'm not upgrading anything until a month or so before the release.
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#38 Sep 13 2009 at 11:27 PM Rating: Good
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Lobivopis wrote:
Zackary wrote:
Nothing reported as far as I've seen. If I had to bet, I would say 10. XP is still used by a vast number of people


DirectX 10 is only supported in Vista and Windows 7. There is no XP version.

Kirbster wrote:
I'm sure that SE will be taking advantage of DX10 stuff, but there's no way they wouldn't be supporting DX9c for XP systems as well.


They already said that FFXIV will be Vista only (and by extension Windows 7)


Abwuh? In which interview was this stated?

I'm upgrading to W7 from XP already, but it seems like a strange business choice for an MMO.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 12:31am by Kirbster
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#39 Sep 13 2009 at 11:35 PM Rating: Decent
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DirectX 10. With the graphics I've seen that DirectX 10 can do, compared with the graphics shown in the FFXIV screenshots, there's no reason why it would demand a version of DirectX that has no use (or even very many cards that support it yet) just yet. FFXIV will be pretty, yes, but it won't be groundbreaking, and in terms of graphics, I doubt it will even touch Age of Conan, which was made to fully utilize the graphic power of DirectX 10.

Also, as someone mentioned before, DirectX 9 was on XP. 10 came with Vista. 11 came with Windows 7. Though, I am excited to see what 11 can do. Fallout 4? :D
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#40 Sep 13 2009 at 11:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Abwuh? In which interview was this stated?

I'm upgrading to W7 from XP already, but it seems like a strange business choice for an MMO.


Windows 7 is just as stable as XP. There's no reason why anyone should stay with XP now that Vista is out, and we'd be hearing "XP limitations" all the time if they tried.
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#41 Sep 14 2009 at 1:40 AM Rating: Good
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mortalabattoir wrote:
Quote:
Abwuh? In which interview was this stated?

I'm upgrading to W7 from XP already, but it seems like a strange business choice for an MMO.


Windows 7 is just as stable as XP. There's no reason why anyone should stay with XP now that Vista is out, and we'd be hearing "XP limitations" all the time if they tried.


Like I said, I'm aware and upgrading. I've been needing a non-crappy 64-bit windows OS for a long time. (although I'm hacking that wretched new taskbar to a more classic windows configuration, I don't like it.)

But it seems strange to alienate such a completely massive base that still uses XP (and will likely continue using for the next year or two). In the very least, it seems strange not to at least support XP.

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 2:42am by Kirbster
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#42 Sep 14 2009 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Like I said, I'm aware and upgrading. I've been needing a non-crappy 64-bit windows OS for a long time. (although I'm hacking that wretched new taskbar to a more classic windows configuration, I don't like it.)

But it seems strange to alienate such a completely massive base that still uses XP (and will likely continue using for the next year or two). In the very least, it seems strange not to at least support XP.


Hacking isn't needed. You can make it look like 95, XP, and even Vista. I have mine set to look like Vista with small icons because the Windows 7 taskbar in my opinion is a little chunky and doesn't look good with my minimalistic Google Chrome.

And it's not so much that they refuse to support XP, it's that XP just isn't capable of running DirectX 10 or above, and it'd be way too limiting for them graphic-wise to make the game with XP users in mind. Many also use PS2s but if they released FFXIV with the PS2 in mind, I'd cringe. So much.
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#43 Sep 14 2009 at 7:27 PM Rating: Good
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Basically, if you aren't going to be running Windows 7 in the next year, you're a troglodyte. XP users should upgrade for the modern driver support and Vista users should upgrade because Vista is pretty much ME 2.0 . Seriously, I'd be surprised if FFXIV wasn't DX10 at least. I have little doubt it will scale back to DX9 to reach a larger userbase but if it doesnt, it wouldn't be a real shocker tbh.

XP users will be like those guys who called in to tech centers that would call in still using Windows 95 when XP came out. Don't be that guy!

Edited, Sep 14th 2009 11:28pm by Lefein
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