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#102 Sep 15 2009 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Quick question to all of you - why is the statement of my disappointment (mind you not dislike, hatred, anger or disdain) so infurating to you all?

It is the internet afterall, it could be alot worse.
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#103 Sep 15 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
But the similarities are there, and while that is not a deal breaker for me, i am disapointed to not see something genuinely unique.


Honestly, I'm not trying to be hostile here but if you are looking for a genuinely unique game that is just not the FF franchise. I think that might be the appeal of the games...it certainly is for me. I keep going back to FF because the games bring me back to the the days of my youth when I watched my bigger brother play the early FFs. It's sort of a nostalgic experience. Sure there are aspects of each game that are different but the general feel of every FF game is the same, the general story of every FF game is the same, the characters usually all have similar backgrounds and motivations, the combat is basically the same. FF is a series of uniformity, there's just nothing around it.

But still, what we are hearing from SE gives almost no similarities to FFXI. I still expect a great many though.
#104 Sep 15 2009 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
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Protip: in case you haven't been reading interviews, all of these are different in XIV.


I view classes as being replaced by weapons. Basically, replace LFG - DRK with LFG - Scythe.

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Stop being obtuse.


You're the one who resorts to insults in a discussion, which does make it hard to take you seriously.

It's like i said, the zealots are so entertaining sometimes.


I'm hardly a zealot, I'm playing WoW as we speak.
It's actually your undeserved pompous nature that annoys me.


As to your actual argument,

What difference is classes > Weapons than any other mechanic used in the final fantasy series?

By that logic, Espers = Materia = GFs= Weapons = Sphere. They all work to do the same thing, give the characters abilities. Are they all repackaged games with a different cover?

All of your concerns seem largely superficial with the amount of actual info we have on the game.

Quote:
Quick question to all of you - why is the statement of my disappointment (mind you not dislike, hatred, anger or disdain) so infurating to you all?


It's not that you're disappointed, it's that many people don't agree with the reasons why you're disappointed. It's akin to giving a person a chocolate cake and them being disappointed because they don't like chocolate. But hey, lots of other people do.

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 5:18pm by Kirbster
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#105 Sep 15 2009 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
Quick question to all of you - why is the statement of my disappointment (mind you not dislike, hatred, anger or disdain) so infurating to you all?

It is the internet afterall, it could be alot worse.


I'm not infuriated...I just like correcting people...it's a hobby of mine.

I don't find your statement to be based on truth so I am correcting it. Why? Because if enough people think as you do who are following the game then those who aren't following the game will think the same way. Most of those people who aren't following the game aren't following because they didn't like FFXI. If they don't like FFXI and think FFXIV is the same they wont play FFXIV. Low population kills mmos and I don't want FFXIV to die just yet. If it turns out to suck, have at it, but since we have almost no information it's best just to wait for any judgment.

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 5:05pm by Yogtheterrible
#106Pious, Posted: Sep 15 2009 at 4:06 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This comment says it all... just stick with WoW, because all your little 10 year old friends with miss you if you leave for FFXIV, and then I wont have to pick up the slack if you and I ever end up getting placed in a party together.
#107 Sep 15 2009 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm hardly a zealot, I'm playing WoW as we speak.
It's actually your undeserved pompous nature that annoys me.


Excuse me for not being nice to a person who called me an idiot. My bad i guess. If i call you a douche bag, will you be nice to me too?

Quote:
What difference is classes > Weapons than any other mechanic used in the final fantasy series?


My inference was that since the races are the same, the ws animations from teh demo were the same (what was that, burning blade?) that the correlation that the classes were to be essentially the same is not far off. I mean, new name does not make it new. Having to enter in your attacks does not negate the fact that it is the same attacks.

Seriously, how can you not see the similarities? Just because i feel that is a disapointment and you do not does not mean that my OPINION is wrong.

Quote:
By that logic, Espers = Materia = GFs= Weapons = Sphere. They all work to do the same thing, give the characters abilities. Are they all repackaged games with a different cover? All of your concerns seem largely superficial with the amount of actual info we have on the game.


Well, now you are generalizing alot. I would say espers = gf definitly (as any summon in ff is essentially the same as the previous). But the materia is different than spheres as they are different mechanics for the same goal (progression). Liscenses might be close to spheres, but the scope of liscenese is braoder.

All of my concerns are superficial - that is why i am disapointed. This is not some nerd going "omg if this is in the game i will not play" this is just some guy going, yeah, thats kinda a let down".

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It's not that you're disappointed, it's that many people don't agree with the reasons why you're disappointed. It's akin to giving a person a chocolate cake and them being disappointed because they don't like chocolate. But hey, lots of other people do.


In the context of this thread:

SE: here is chocolate cake!
Me: Oh, i was kinda hoping for vanilla cake, i don't like chocolate
You guys: OMG WTF is wrong with you, chocolate is the best flavor ever!
Me: But, i don't like it. Its not horrible like mint cake, but its not vanilla cake.
You guys: Kill it with fire!

Seriously, these are opinions. That is why i call you guys zealots. If someone came here and said, WoW sucks. Aion sucks. AoC sucks. PSU sucks. FFXI sucks. or any other mmo that i have played i would really not care - it is their opinion.

If someone says "hey, Aion sucks because you can't fly" I would say "no, you can fly". What i am saying is based entirely on opinion. Likewise, what you are saying is entirely based on opinion as well. Seriously, is there enough information out about this game to conclusively say one thing or another? No - you form opinions about it based on what you have. And really, it is not even in beta yet, these things are subject to change.

That said - your opinion is not better than mine. It is different.

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two I'm debating with someone who's obviously never played thief on an elite level...


I cannot compete with your 1337ness. I submit oh great elite thief in a video game.

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the point is that all jobs in FFXI involve more interaction than say... AOC's DDR button mashing, and WOWs see a monster, click a monster, watch monster die interaction.


So, you are saying that in AoC where your abilities were tied to directional shielding and attacks had to be adjusted on the fly constantly inorder to perform optimally is less interactive than hitting "lock target > auto run" and being behind the mob every 30 seconds?

I'm sorry, ffxi is a great game, and AoC did fail epicly, but AoC required much more attention than anything ffxi has.

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I'm not a zealot, I just have a good sense of quality... you should actually take my lead, that way you wouldn't be flushing money down the drain on sludge like AOC... and no, I'm not mad... in fact I laugh at you and your purchase of such a silly, hack developed title. :D :D :D
How does it feel to be nothing more than a quick cash in on the Conan name franchise?
:D :D :D


How does it feel to know that i am in a position in my life where 50 bucks for a game and 15 dollars a month is pocket change?

The game failed epicly, but you never know if a game is for you until you try it. I trust forums and about as much as i trust some highschool kid to explain what 2nd and 3rd order harmonics persent in an accelerometer on a bearing mean to a customer.

I will try ffxiv, if it is not for me it is not for me. Will i regret buying it? No, its fun to try new games.

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This comment says it all... just stick with WoW, because all your little 10 year old friends with miss you if you leave for FFXIV, and then I wont have to pick up the slack for you if you and I ever end up getting placed in a party together.


You know why i like the jump function? It adds immersion. I dislike being stuck on twigs or branches that are knee high.

I also like to fly in aion, because it is just down right fun.

But thanks for resorting to real life insults. It is amusing.

edit: removed personal info - not playing that game. I'm 29 years old tho :P

So, i guess this is where you insult my ***** size or some other such nonsense?

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 10:18pm by KacesofCaitsith
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#108 Sep 15 2009 at 6:31 PM Rating: Good
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Seriously, how can you not see the similarities? Just because i feel that is a disappointment and you do not does not mean that my OPINION is wrong.


Everyone knows about the similarities. It's just that most people weren't expecting there to not be similarities between XI and XIV, considering XI was a financial success and had a fairly large and dedicated fanbase. It's only logical for them to cater to XI fans. But most people disagreeing with you are merely stating that the similarities are trivial at best.

I for one, actually welcome the similarities, because I loved XI more than any other MMO I've played. But aside from that, it looks like it has significant differences as well, most of which seem to solve many problems that were so prevalent in XI. It's not like the missions, storyline or NPCs are going to be the same, either.

As I said in my original post:

Quote:

it's idiotic to think that there wouldn't be similarities from their sole experience in the MMO genre.


I apologize for implying insults, but my original point still stands.

You are also free to call me a douchebag, if you so wish.

It's your opinion.

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 7:37pm by Kirbster
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#109 Sep 15 2009 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
I agree with Kirby, FFXIV is not really any more of a copy of FFXI that it is of every other game in the series (other than maybe tactics; excluding both being MMOs).
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#110 Sep 15 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I only have the time for one MMO. Looks like it'll be FFXIV.

Edited, Sep 16th 2009 4:50pm by TheJollyjokers
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#111 Sep 15 2009 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I apologize for implying insults, but my original point still stands.

You are also free to call me a douchebag, if you so wish.

It's your opinion.


Eh, no worries.

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Everyone knows about the similarities.


I personally, do not like that. I found it disapointing. You cannot tell me how to feel about it, yet you people try. That is why i call you zealots. When another person's opinion - especially something as inoculus as "i'm disapointed with this" is met with such fury and ferverent opposition. It was fun for awhile to try and make a discussion from it, but like i said, only so much i can argue when my feelings only slightly deviate from neutral.

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But most people disagreeing with you are merely stating that the similarities are trivial at best


And if they were major, ground shattering, game breaking issues i would have used words like "unacceptable" or "dismal" or "horrible". But anything shy of "masterful" is viewed as both an insult to the game, the developers and yourself it seems.

Seriously, you people need to pull the stick out of your **** and get over yourselves. Community my ***. Pack mentality is more like it.
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#112 Sep 15 2009 at 8:07 PM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
Quick question to all of you - why is the statement of my disappointment (mind you not dislike, hatred, anger or disdain) so infurating to you all?



Quote:
It's actually your undeserved pompous nature that annoys me.


This.

I couldn't care less about your opinion, but you are entitled to have as many as you like.
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#113 Sep 15 2009 at 8:12 PM Rating: Decent
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This.

I couldn't care less about your opinion, but you are entitled to have as many as you like.


last page, from me:

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No worries, i was not offended - i think my typing style just tends to be alittle.. rough?


Plus, once you call someone an idiot it is hard for them to not be harsher with you - especially over something so trivial as a "disapointed opinion".

Seriously, how am i supposed to react when people say "you should not feel that, you should only feel happy things. you are an idiot if you do not"

Edited, Sep 16th 2009 12:17am by KacesofCaitsith
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#114 Sep 15 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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You cannot tell me how to feel about it,

Watch me!





Really though, you've gotten very upset over nothing, idk if this is just carryover from another thread ("I've said it before"), but everyone was pretty civil to you in relative forum levels except pious, but he's a troll, soooo... (and this is the part where I do that thing I said I was going to do) grow some skin.
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#115 Sep 15 2009 at 8:22 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Really though, you've gotten very upset over nothing, idk if this is just carryover from another thread ("I've said it before"), but everyone was pretty civil to you in relative forum levels except pious, but he's a troll, soooo... (and this is the part where I do that thing I said I was going to do) grow some skin.


Nah, not upset.

Like i said, i think my typing style is rough - my personality supplmenting that. its a forum, and really i mean no offense by this, and all of your opinions and statements to and about me really do not matter to me. I think it is my enjoyment of debate that keeps me going with things. That and killing time.
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#116 Sep 15 2009 at 8:35 PM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
But the similarities are there, and while that is not a deal breaker for me, i am disapointed to not see something genuinely unique.


I'm none too happy with the carry-over fluff from FFXI, either. It's not the FF themes or hallmarks that are the problem, it's the near-direct copying of setting-specific FFXI fluff into the FFXIV setting. If I want a game that looks and feels just like FFXI, I'll stick with FFXI. Here's hoping the rest of the setting doesn't feel as "Compares to FFXI!" as the races do.
#117 Sep 15 2009 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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SWTOR has good publicity, people like bioware, most everyone loves star wars ip even they don't consider themselves fans (which can't be said about FF)...the game has everything going for it so I really don't see it being outperformed by FFXIV unless it isn't that good.


I think maybe you overestimate the importance of those factors. First of all, publicity hasn't been that prevalent. I haven't even seen any, and I'm not exactly living under a rock here. I think you'll find that the number of gamers, nevermind would-be gamers, who are really going to take brand name into consideration are <1%. And I know lots of people who are fans of movies but consider video games far beneath them, which I would surmise includes a healthy portion of the Star Wars fan base.

I wouldn't be surprised if they're close in subscribers, but I would be surprised if a Star Wars MMO significantly outperformed a Final Fantasy one.


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#118 Sep 15 2009 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
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Seriously, you people need to pull the stick out of your **** and get over yourselves. Community my ***. Pack mentality is more like it.


This, is why people didn't like your posts.

'I don't care about what anyone says, it means nothing to me in any way, BUT YOU MUST ALL BE PACK MENTALITY BASTARDS BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH ME. I'm not offended by the way.'

Presenting your arguments as such rarely works in your favor. You first come off as not even considering the opposing opinion, then you flame a bit, and then you go right out and say that nothing anyone posted matters to you and that you're just trying to 'waste time.'

If you never respected anyone else's opinion, why should anyone respect yours?

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I think maybe you overestimate the importance of those factors. First of all, publicity hasn't been that prevalent. I haven't even seen any, and I'm not exactly living under a rock here. I think you'll find that the number of gamers, nevermind would-be gamers, who are really going to take brand name into consideration are <1%. And I know lots of people who are fans of movies but consider video games far beneath them, which I would surmise includes a healthy portion of the Star Wars fan base.

I wouldn't be surprised if they're close in subscribers, but I would be surprised if a Star Wars MMO significantly outperformed a Final Fantasy one.


There's also the large KOTOR fanbase to consider, but I'd be pretty surprised myself if it outperformed the FF brand, especially with the stigma of Star Wars Galaxies.

I'll probably be giving it a try, but only because **** it I love Jedi.

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 11:47pm by Kirbster
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#119 Sep 15 2009 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's reactions like that that just go to prove what a dodgy business desicion recycling the races was.

For every person comforted by this fact, there's another who takes one look at those races and feels a cold shiver run down their spine. I know, I've just spoken blasphemy, put down your torches long enough for me to explain.

Tapping into the final fantasy fanbase is a good idea. Tapping into XI's fanbase is not something I'm too sure about. From a Marketing standpoint; they aren't necessarily attracting a more significant amount of warm bodies targeting XI than they would targeting FF in general, because in the case of series fans playing XI they would be targeted by a general approach and in the case of non-series fans who are attracted to the hardcore game mechanics they wouldn't migrate for a more casual game anyway.

This desicion also comes with a side-effect, they invite XIV to be burdened via correlation with any of XI's bad PR and baggage that might remain in the public consciousness. This is probably why they've taken such pains to communicate this casual stance and avoiding the word "job" and all it's unfortunately ironic connotations like the plague - because being too hardcore and grindy is what XI gets the most criticism on.

And some of this bad PR and baggage is undeserving. XI was a perfectly appropriate MMO for it's time and by those day's standards had a great reception. But as the market grew more casual, it's opinion of XI gradually soured. It suffers from a kind of social stigma other anachronistic Hardcore MMOs (UO, EvE) have managed to avoid by escaping into obscurity. In part, this might be due to it being a part of a series; having an active fanbase that is at once completely removed from it and yet eternally invested secondarily. Things like boss encounters taking a long stretch hours get paraded around to be gawked like some kind of carnival sideshow because, while it's not the only MMO currently running guilty of that kind of epic timesink, it's the one with a brandname that attracts eyes.

It's for all of these reasons I think recycling the races wasn't a good idea, and I can sympathize with folks who might overreact negatively to seeing them. (Especially when, even if they're delivery has slowly become more rude, the initial statement was obviously an opinion and a pretty tame one at that?)




Edited, Sep 16th 2009 1:29am by Zemzelette
#120 Sep 15 2009 at 9:25 PM Rating: Good
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You make a good point, and I think it was extremely unwise of SE to release the races without video gameplay that clearly announces 'I am not an XI clone.' In the very least, it would stop all the kneejerk reactions and assumptions that sprung from seeing the same races in the game.

That being said, I would have less interest in XIV if it's absolutely nothing at all like XI, if only because I was extremely fond of the game and actually liked the non-casual aspect of the game, to a point. A more casual-friendly XI would appeal to a lot more people, I think.

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 10:38pm by Kirbster
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#121 Sep 15 2009 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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It wouldn't have hurt if SE threw in a couple new playable races, (possibly) the most popular being a male mithra.
As for myself, I would like to play as a Goblin Necromancer.
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#122 Sep 16 2009 at 3:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kirbster wrote:
It's just that most people weren't expecting there to not be similarities between XI and XIV, considering XI was a financial success and had a fairly large and dedicated fanbase.
I'm pretty sure most people were expecting few similarities. Look at the entire franchise. It has always been pretty unrealistic to expect many similarities between one game to the next. Its only recently that Square has taken to recycling almost entire games to make "new ones," like the second Tactic Advance for the DS and 12 for the PS3 (Edit: Oh, and X-2). Look at the first eleven games, look at Tactics, the three or four games for the original Gameboy, heck even Mystic Quest. What made the Final Fantasy franchise interesting was the vast differences between the games.

It isn't the "financial success" of FFXI that made them reuse the same races for XIV. Final Fantasy has almost always been successful anyway. They just realized they didn't have to try so hard at being creative to sell their games. This is easy to prove: Would you play FFXIV if the Mithras, Galkas, and Tarus were replaced with other races and not just renamed, or even just different tribes of humans with slight physical differences? Or does the thought that Mithras, Galkas, and Tarus not being present repulsive enough to make you not want to play at all?

The "similarities" most people expected were to see were Chocobos, Cid, and Airships, with possible other throw backs to classic Final Fantasy-isms.

Edited, Sep 16th 2009 7:11am by lolgaxe
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#123 Sep 16 2009 at 4:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I can't really say I was happy to see the old races being recycled, but at the same time I can't say I was unhappy. I loved my taru in FFXI and being able to make a new "taru" in FFXIV is great, but if I were to decide on the issue of races in XIV I'd say at least add a couple of new ones. Please. I want the chance to fall in love with another race, whether it be playing as one or hating their looks(female elvaans, I am looking at you).

I am sure there will be some things familiar with XIV and seeing chocobos, hi-pots and meeting Cid again is part of why I love the FF-series, but what gets me excited about a new game is just that, it is new. There are new things to see and explore, even the box and login screen will be different(byebye crappy playonline) and so far we don't know quite enough to really say much about it, but I know what I want. I want to have the feel of a completely new game, but with some familiar elements.

So far, with the new races being such a large portion of what we can really see and say for sure about the game, it feels a little heavy on the familiar side, but I hope(and think) that as we get more information and actually get to try it out in beta it will all even out and we get a good balance of old and new.

Just like KacesofCaitsith did, I felt a small sting of dissapointment when first seeing some of the info released so far, but to me it feels more like it is because I don't have enough information yet. As it all gets fleshed out I might even have changed my mind regarding some of the things I first found dissapointing.
#124 Sep 16 2009 at 4:30 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Kirbster wrote:
It's just that most people weren't expecting there to not be similarities between XI and XIV, considering XI was a financial success and had a fairly large and dedicated fanbase.
I'm pretty sure most people were expecting few similarities. Look at the entire franchise. It has always been pretty unrealistic to expect many similarities between one game to the next. Its only recently that Square has taken to recycling almost entire games to make "new ones," like the second Tactic Advance for the DS and 12 for the PS3 (Edit: Oh, and X-2). Look at the first eleven games, look at Tactics, the three or four games for the original Gameboy, heck even Mystic Quest. What made the Final Fantasy franchise interesting was the vast differences between the games.

It isn't the "financial success" of FFXI that made them reuse the same races for XIV. Final Fantasy has almost always been successful anyway. They just realized they didn't have to try so hard at being creative to sell their games. This is easy to prove: Would you play FFXIV if the Mithras, Galkas, and Tarus were replaced with other races and not just renamed, or even just different tribes of humans with slight physical differences? Or does the thought that Mithras, Galkas, and Tarus not being present repulsive enough to make you not want to play at all?

The "similarities" most people expected were to see were Chocobos, Cid, and Airships, with possible other throw backs to classic Final Fantasy-isms.

Edited, Sep 16th 2009 7:11am by lolgaxe


That rule works for the single player games, sure.

But as you said, SE seems to like doing 'expanded universes' of the various spin-off games. The Crystal Chronicles universe with its various races, the FFTA, FFTA2 and FFXII (and arguably FFT) universe etc. I don't see it as much of a bad thing in this case, though, or even being uncreative. They liked the races, and everyone else liked the races, so they decided to stick with them.

Are these sequels so uncreative? Did FFXII suffer from using the same races as FFTA?

Edited, Sep 16th 2009 5:34am by Kirbster
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#125 Sep 16 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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Did FFXII suffer from using the same races as FFTA?


Ignoring the fact that it suffered from so many other things? Probably, but only a little bit.
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#126 Sep 16 2009 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Quote:
Did FFXII suffer from using the same races as FFTA?


Ignoring the fact that it suffered from so many other things? Probably, but only a little bit.


I agree that it suffered from a lot, but the fact that it used same races as TA is a throwback if anything else, i don't think it made the game suffer, if anything it was interesting.

as the xi to xiv argument i dunno, xi is too recent to necessarily be a "throwback" imo. so... i really don't know
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#127 Sep 16 2009 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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Either way though, I don't see any reason not to introduce at least one or two new races as well. Don't see how it could hurt the game having male mithra and gria(or w/e... heard they said gria are not going to happen, but you get the point).
#128 Sep 16 2009 at 11:52 AM Rating: Default
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well depending on how they do the story for male mithra, ( in xi there was an actual backstory reason why you never see any )but still male mithra are not really a new race.

the thing is when you add too many races things get jumbled and there becomes less reason to chose based on stats, and i think thats what SE is going for. i'm not sure if i like that personally because sometimes i want to looks like 1 race and have the stats of another... anyway thats neither here nore there.

lets break it down

you have (according to ffxi, these are generalities there are obviously a lot more stats involved)

Tarutaru: lowest strength, highest magic

mithra: medium strength, medium magic

human: medium strength, medium magic

Elvaan: high strength low magic

galka: highest strength lowest magic

you can see with just these 5 they are already covering all the bases and then some, even as it is elvaan are kinda tossed in between human and galka and mithra are quite close in stats to humans. (yes i know MND etc. etc.), adding more would cause too many stat similarities between races and people would start choosing race based on looks alone. I don't know why that is necessarily a bad thing, but thats just not SE's direction. The average player starting their character for the first time is going to look at these basic attributes in selecting their first character, more stats would either be ignored or misunderstood (for the newbies)
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#129 Sep 16 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:
Did FFXII suffer from using the same races as FFTA?


My understanding was that FFXII, FFT, Vagrant Story (best Square game ever made), and FFTA were set in the same world, just in vastly different time periods (listed in chronological order; not sure about where/if FFTA2 fits in). If that's the case, then those games sharing races and mythos makes sense.

If Vana'diel and Eo-whatever (I'll learn to spell it eventually; I promise) share a similar connection, "recycling" the races (and other pieces from Vana'diel) won't bug me.
#130 Sep 16 2009 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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Well I see what you are saying Bocomi, but after reading several interviews it seems to me that SE is actually moving more towards normalising stats for all races. There will probably be differences in stats, but much less noticable than in XI.
#134 Sep 16 2009 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
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pious did u play on valefor?
#135Pious, Posted: Sep 16 2009 at 6:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yeah, I did.
#136 Sep 16 2009 at 6:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personally, I believe that there is quite a bit "under the hood" of this system that has not seen the light of day. We've seen a lot of stuff that looks like FFXI gameplay; and even some mechanics that are eerily familiar, but throw in one curveball and things could take a totally different direction very quickly. I've sort of decided to sit on my hands and wait it out until at least TGS is over.


On a personally note, Pious, I believe you would find people sub-default you less often if you did not show blatant disrespect of the other posters on this board; your opinions are valid and valued here, your aggression and pugnacity is not. By all means continue posting and presenting your opinions, but please do not do so at the expense of other people. And try not to spread rumors while you're at it, according to The Daedalus Project an MMO psychology website, the mean age of male WoW players is 28.3 with a SD of 8.4 [1]. The mean age for women is 4.1 years older.

Edited, Sep 16th 2009 10:37pm by Hulan
#137 Sep 16 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
On a personally note, Pious, I believe you would find people sub-default you less often if you did not show blatant disrespect of the other posters on this board; your opinions are valid and valued here, your aggression and pugnacity is not. By all means continue posting and presenting your opinions, but please do not do so at the expense of other people. And try not to spread rumors while you're at it, according to The Daedalus Project an MMO psychology website, the mean age of male WoW players is 28.3 with a SD of 8.4 [1]. The mean age for women is 4.1 years older.


Although I don’t feel by pointing out obvious flaws in other MMOs that I’m posting at the expense of other people, I will take your well written advice, and tone down the pugnacity.

Woah, you broke out the firepower! I mean you even included Standard Deviations, how can I argue with that? I wasn’t meaning for that comment to be taken literally though, I don't think it's too aggressive to say that the over all maturity range of WoW isn't much higher than the pubescent stage.

**** there I go again... Alright, alright point taken.

/bows courteously

Edited, Sep 16th 2009 11:32pm by Pious
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#138 Sep 16 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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ok so I've heard a few folks calling ffxi difficult

Difficult in terms of skill, not really.

Difficult in terms of understanding poorly explained systems (no tutorial involved for stats, character types, etc.) Yes

Difficult in terms of having a lot of time required to be successful at an endgame standpoint? Yes.

I can keep going on, but the 'skill' factor off FFXI was very little. To get "skillful" at FFXI you simply needed to research things on the internet about the game. I will admit there was timing that had to be worked out, like stunning properly or using weapon skills at the appropriate times back when skill chaining existed. But honestly most of FFXI is a gear check. If you dont have the right group of jobs with the right gear, you werent succeeding. Had nothing to do with skill.

Now onto the topic at hand! I didn't care a lot for the FFXI races, nor the story as it took so long to get to a part that wasnt boring to me. So the lore of the game didnt really do a lot for me. I just found the races fairly bland and/or annoying(taru's bother me greatly). Having FFIV recycle them is somewhat annoying, but I really dont care that much.

From looking at the gameplay videos, yes it was slow. Yes, the person playing could have been awful. But something I have not seen mentioned on here was the fact that, that fight could only have had 4 skills coded in to work. Might have been that all of the skills are in the game, but in that alpha build displaying the GL system, that only the skills he used was avalible, moreso that he had someone telling him how to do them.

To those who seem mad that the skills seen were rehashes of things we've seen before. SE has already said they wish to give FFXI fans some similar things. It is my thought that those skills are there simply to gratify the FFXI fan base. I highly, HIGHLY doubt we will see a carbon copy of FFXI. I imagine some of it will be similar, copying off the things FFXI did well. At the same time they will try to copy off what other games have done successfully. Like making a game not punish you for playing(not saying everyone felt like this, but when I would have to ride a chocobo for 30 minutes somewhere, I Felt punished.)

I personally feel the graphics and sound will make the game VERY nice and much more fluid. The ability to control your characters every move seems like it will be nice to assuming they can streamline it enough so that it isnt a problem. Integrating a voice chat will help greatly in this so that you wont be forced to type much.

I cannot wait for this game to get into its alpha/beta phases where people can apply to test it out. I will give this game a try with great expectations. SE likes money, people play money to play a good game. I imagine they are trying to make a game tons of people will want play. I say this considering a simultanious NA/JP release. I think they want a bit of the pie that WoW chomped into and at least hit a million subs.

TLDR: FFXI wasnt that hard of a game, just very time consuming and I think FFIV will be a much better game then FFXI was.

EDIT: In response to the post above me. The reason WoW's maturity seems how it is, is because the people who stand out the most are the most out spoken which are usually the most annoying. Oh and wow has quite a few subscribers which gives you QUITE a larger group of annoying ***** (which you will find ANYWHERE ON EARTH).

Edited, Sep 16th 2009 10:39pm by shaani
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#140 Sep 16 2009 at 8:58 PM Rating: Decent
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shaani wrote:
Like making a game not punish you for playing(not saying everyone felt like this, but when I would have to ride a chocobo for 30 minutes somewhere, I Felt punished.)

[/sm][/i]


I felt like this many times, trying to get from Kazam to Norg, riding the Chocobo through the jungle. I know I'm not the only one who has had my bird desert me after running into one dead end after another. I hope SE won't rehire the individual/team that designed that POS map.
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#141 Sep 16 2009 at 9:03 PM Rating: Good
TheJollyjokers wrote:
It wouldn't have hurt if SE threw in a couple new playable races, (possibly) the most popular being a male mithra.
As for myself, I would like to play as a Goblin Necromancer.
Bangaa!
Quote:
I can keep going on, but the 'skill' factor off FFXI was very little. To get "skillful" at FFXI you simply needed to research things on the internet about the game. I will admit there was timing that had to be worked out, like stunning properly or using weapon skills at the appropriate times back when skill chaining existed. But honestly most of FFXI is a gear check. If you dont have the right group of jobs with the right gear, you werent succeeding. Had nothing to do with skill.
it doesn't take any skill to level up, or to be melee #17 in an HNM, but there are quite a few battles that require more than just good gear and knowledge (particularly low man).
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#142Pious, Posted: Sep 16 2009 at 9:12 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm trolling? I'm not the one proclaiming that FFXIV won’t be as good because it has similarities to FFXI... in FFXI forums mind you.
#143 Sep 16 2009 at 9:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Difficult =/= Requiring Skill
Something can be Difficult because it's a gearcheck, a classcheck, or designed with a luck element.

Though, I don't think it's fair to brand XI with timesinks and difficulty.
In a historical context SE did alot to remove the wasted hours, frustration, and luck-related elements of the Everquest model for the sake of public consumption. They certainly tried to release a more skill-centric player-friendly product. Just because it's been overshadowed, doesn't mean their hearts weren't in the right place.

I'd really like to see more in the way of strategic positioning. And if the interviews are any indication, I think that's what we're in store for. It's something the industry's been kicking around to moderate success for the past 2-3 years or so. XI had a little bit of it (last I played), insomuch that skills required certain positions to be effective. But the industry's been experimenting with other things: more reactive systems such as the popular korean model going around that increases your chance to dodge if you strafe, increases your accuracy if you approach the mob during your attack, increases your defense if you back away during their attack, etc. Boss Battles that require you to not only avoid boss-centric and target-centric AOE, but spells that take effect if you move to or remain standing in a particular location on the field - that ranges all the way from beneficial buff to instant-death.

I believe a great deal of strategic depth can be accomplished if they're willing to push this boundary.



Edited, Sep 17th 2009 1:42am by Zemzelette
#144 Sep 16 2009 at 9:43 PM Rating: Default
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Sub-Defaulting
Ok… for the sake of the thread just leave it alone already.
I’m tired of reading Pious’s same post over and over again.
He obviously wants a response from the person he’s directing it to… and he's obviously insanly OCD.

Just let it go... for the love of <breads and rice>.

As for the FFXIV content I like what Im seeing thus far. I think we all need to relize its still in such an early stage that there is alot of room for fine tuning and improvements, but it should be noted that the Japanese gaming website Famitsu holds the alpha build in very high regard. For those who dont know Famitsu is very hard on games and their general good will towards FFXIV so far is a good sign to those of us who are anticipating the release of what is sure to be one of the BEST MMO's on the market.

For anyone wondering about my MMO background I played FFXI for two years on the Valefor server using the name Poisoned. My race was a Galka which am glad to see return revamped in FFXIV. My favorite job was monk which I am also glad to see make an apperance in FFXIV as the Puggilist. If anyone has any new info on the puggilist please post it.

As for other MMO's... I did some research but decided they were not for me and never bought a copy. For me FFXI fullfilled all the requirements I was looking for in an MMO especially a game community that would go above and beyond the call of duty to help a new player become aclimated to the ways of the game. Thanks to all of you who made my playing experience a good one.

Edited, Sep 17th 2009 1:50am by Prosymnus

Edited, Sep 17th 2009 2:08am by Prosymnus
#145 Sep 16 2009 at 10:04 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
ok so I've heard a few folks calling ffxi difficult

Difficult in terms of skill, not really.

Difficult in terms of understanding poorly explained systems (no tutorial involved for stats, character types, etc.) Yes

Difficult in terms of having a lot of time required to be successful at an endgame standpoint? Yes.

I can keep going on, but the 'skill' factor off FFXI was very little. To get "skillful" at FFXI you simply needed to research things on the internet about the game. I will admit there was timing that had to be worked out, like stunning properly or using weapon skills at the appropriate times back when skill chaining existed. But honestly most of FFXI is a gear check. If you dont have the right group of jobs with the right gear, you werent succeeding. Had nothing to do with skill.


I completely disagree with the assumption that - if you have the time to play FFXI then you’ll go far, but it doesn’t really require much skill - because I’ve personally seen examples that prove otherwise.

I recommended this game to everyone I knew when I first started playing (co-workers, friends, relatives), and a very minimal portion were able to advance at the same pace that I did.
I’m not saying I’m better than any of them, but the fact is that the majority were devoured right from the get go, and all of them were experienced gamers who even had some MMO time under their belt… came to FFXI… and got straight up OWNED, and I’m not talking about not being able to invest the time either.
I’m talking – leveling down, not able to generate gil, not able to produce exp at a decent rate, dieing every few battles, ect, ect…

Also, when comparing it to other MMOs... I’m sorry, but FFXI is a **** of a lot more difficult.
Examples would be, well let’s see… some of the limit breaks… and fighting Maat?!?
You don’t think beating that old ******* takes any skill? I mean come on, I see your a 75 Samurai, take some credit for your accomplishment...
Maat can be one cruel Mo Fo.
I don’t know of any other MMO that has that much of a hurtle to overcome before making it to end game, especially any mentioned in this thread.

Some of the Burning Circles were insanely difficult also… and how many times were you in a party that got wiped because one person made the tiniest little error?
I can assure you that level of danger does not exist in other MMOs outside of a S/E game.

Other than that though, I actually agree with the rest of your post, with the exception of the quoted portion.

Edited, Sep 17th 2009 2:08am by Pious
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#146 Sep 16 2009 at 11:05 PM Rating: Decent
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You actually agree with me and you dont know it Pious. You know why people die in FFXI when they first start? The game is so poorly explained.

"
Difficult in terms of understanding poorly explained systems (no tutorial involved for stats, character types, etc.) Yes "

That has nothing to do with skill, its all not knowing what the **** is going on. I've played off and on since NA release. I can SAFELY say unless I checked out the massive composites of info on the web about FFXI, I would be god damned awful at the game for QUITE some time. And when I started I still thought mithra thief would be unstoppable. Super high dex and super damage?!?!

FFXI you get left behind if you cannot find a party, cannot find the farm, cannot find the time to party and or farm.

Yes FFXI is harder then other MMOs, but not for skill reasons god no. It's hard because you could be stuck LFG for two weeks on 1 level, or farming for two months straight for something and only be half way there. Another unfortunate thing about FFXI is that no matter how much you know about the game, how much you know about your class, how good your gear is, you are still dependant on a good group. If you dont have someone to soak the damage and someone to heal you, you're not getting much done except killing tigers for some fangs and what not.

I'll freely admit that some low man activities take skill. They require intricate class knowledge and good reaction time. Too bad you need certain setups to do them or you'll fail.

Oh and maat is a cake walk on samurai. Though I hear others lose a lot. **** random chance having such a ginormous impact on a VERY crucial thing. Think about fighting maat 30 times and losing due to sheer chance. HAving to get 30 testimonies. Yeah that must suck. I'm assuming time sinks like that and MANY others will be done away with in FFIV.
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#147 Sep 17 2009 at 12:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Nope, FFXI really does not require much skill. If you suck at games, then you might be behind on the skill curve, but if you're even halfway decent at any video game, then in the hundreds of hours or days you play FFXI, you will figure out all the elements of skill really quickly. FFXI is pretty much all about research and patience for the tedium.

Quote:
you can see with just these 5 they are already covering all the bases and then some, even as it is elvaan are kinda tossed in between human and galka and mithra are quite close in stats to humans. (yes i know MND etc. etc.), adding more would cause too many stat similarities between races and people would start choosing race based on looks alone. I don't know why that is necessarily a bad thing, but thats just not SE's direction. The average player starting their character for the first time is going to look at these basic attributes in selecting their first character, more stats would either be ignored or misunderstood (for the newbies)


Galka didn't have the highest STR. They don't cover nearly all the possible bases. And finally, races should be a cosmetic choice-- people don't like choosing a race they don't like to get the stats that they do. But as was already pointed out, they've already said that racial stats will be downplayed in XIV, and thank god for that.

So yes, bring on the new races.
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#148 Sep 17 2009 at 12:06 AM Rating: Decent
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FFXI you get left behind if you cannot find a party, cannot find the farm, cannot find the time to party and or farm.


I agree. Waiting for a party for two weeks would suck. Many players didn't let those limitations stop them from loving the game,and leveled Beastmaster, which required great skill to survive alone out in the wild. I farmed, crafted, fished, tended gardens, gained experience, and made decent money while doing it. Beastmaster gave the player the freedom to play the game at their own pace. While most level 65-75 were still fighting the same old crab/bird/goblin, I was out farming and experiencing on buffalo, which are far more challenging than the average mob. It took some amount of skill to survive in Ulegeurand Range, as I witnessed quite a few "elite" 75's die on their way to fight King Buffalo, Jormungand, complete CoP quest, repeatedly.
One of my BST buddies put it this way: "My pets don't give a sh*t what kind of gear I'm wearing." Gear helps with luck and survival, but even a poorly equipped, yet skilled, BST can function well enough to reach level 75 solo.
Maat wasn't much of a challenge to me on BST. He busted out a weak Rabbit Familiar, which was subsequently eaten by Chopsuey Chuckie. Then we both tore into Maat. Cake.





Edited, Sep 17th 2009 2:18am by TheJollyjokers
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#149 Sep 17 2009 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow talk about over-reacting. City of Heroes/Villains had no auto attack and that game was a blast to play. Lotro I never used my auto attacks I had enough powers to never need them or miss them. My GF is playing Champions right now and tho it has its problems the combat is one of the things she says shines about that game and there's no auto attack. Personally I'm glad they are getting rid of the auto attack, I can't think of anything more repetitive and boring then watching your character swing for 5 minutes until you can actually do something.
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#150 Sep 17 2009 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
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This system is most likely a little deeper than *wait 'til Action Bar fills up and click attack*. I know that there will be TP again as you guys know, but the way it works in this game is it doesn't use up all the TP on each and every WS (meaning some will use 100%, some 200% and some all 300% assuming that is the max, and probably or maybe a variation of TP; i.e., 150%), this will add to strategizing during battle. Another thing is that there are two Action bars, one for your right hand and one for your left hand, and there will be attacks specific to your shield (assuming you equiped sword and shield or something along those lines), and dual wielding is all but confirmed because of this system. Another thing is after your Attack Bar fills up, another bar on that specific hand will start filling up which will increase the power of your next attack at the expense of accuracy. Skillchains and Magic Bursts will most likely make a return in some form or another and I can only imagine how deep the magic system is in this game...so this is nothing like playing RNG in FFXI (which was a much better job than most jobs in that game to begin with).
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