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Warrior/Whitemage..Follow

#1 Sep 15 2009 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I remember when I decided to play FFXI and wen't out and bought the strategy guide. I remember reading how with the additions of subjobs, a player can play the game anyway they wanted. Warrior/whitemage seemed like a perfect job/subjob combination cause I could have the "best of both worlds". I quickly learned a rule which which stretches across all MMO's. It is better to do one thing great than to do many things well.
The main thing that worried me at first about FFXIV was the ability to switch class on the fly(outside of battle). Although SE hasn't said anything about a penalty or cap from switching classes I am sure it is coming. I am sure that being able to switch class from fighter to healer will result in some sort of lower peak skill which will make class switching very rare in group play.
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#2 Sep 15 2009 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Obiar wrote:
It is better to do one thing great than to do many things well.
Red Mage would like to disagree with you.
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#3 Sep 15 2009 at 5:48 PM Rating: Default
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You called?!
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#4 Sep 15 2009 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
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If you're using WAR/WHM as an example:

Obiar wrote:
It is better to do one thing great than to do many things well fail at everything.
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#5agriasjg, Posted: Sep 15 2009 at 6:37 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Better to fail at one thing than roll PUP.
#6 Sep 15 2009 at 6:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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lol i remembered how fun it was to solo with DRG/WHM
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#7 Sep 15 2009 at 7:18 PM Rating: Good
mmmm buttersheep
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#8 Sep 15 2009 at 7:32 PM Rating: Default
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I remember quite a few parties in the Dunes with Warrior/Whitemage tanks, trying to be pseudo-Paladins. They typically died a lot, leaving me to type /disband party.Smiley: lol

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 8:47pm by TheJollyjokers
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#9 Sep 15 2009 at 7:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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The early days were wonderful.


Once, I remember partying with a level 10 rdm to duo junk in Tahrongi back in like 2004. He cast only Dia over and over. When I died and asked why he wasn't healing me, he exclaimed that he was a 'Tactical Mage' and not a healer.
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#10 Sep 15 2009 at 7:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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#11 Sep 15 2009 at 8:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Kirbster wrote:
The early days were wonderful.


Once, I remember partying with a level 10 rdm to duo junk in Tahrongi back in like 2004. He cast only Dia over and over. When I died and asked why he wasn't healing me, he exclaimed that he was a 'Tactical Mage' and not a healer.


LOOL!?!?! WTF?!?! Thats funny, yeah i've had the war/whm wannabe pally tank before to...thought what the **** had the party flag up for a long *** time figured i'd give it a go....after about 10 mins and everyone is dead on the ground I humbly said this isn't going to work and left party. Although it wasn't him alone that wasn't pulling their full weight.
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#12 Sep 15 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Good
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#13 Sep 15 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheJollyjokers wrote:
I remember quite a few parties in the Dunes with Warrior/Whitemage tanks, trying to be pseudo-Paladins. They typically died a lot, leaving me to type /disband party.Smiley: lol

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 8:47pm by TheJollyjokers


Well they couldn't be worse than a warrior with no sub job right?
#14 Sep 15 2009 at 9:12 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Well they couldn't be worse than a warrior with no sub job right?


Should I be considered a snob, if I said I wouldn't join a party with a tank who has no subjob? For the most part, I solo'd all of my jobs up to level 20. I only broke down to party in the Dunes when people wouldn't stop begging me to group up, when I was perfectly content not dying on my own.

Quote:
'Tactical Mage'


ROFL

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 10:15pm by TheJollyjokers
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#15 Sep 16 2009 at 6:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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TheJollyjokers wrote:
Quote:
Well they couldn't be worse than a warrior with no sub job right?


Should I be considered a snob, if I said I wouldn't join a party with a tank who has no subjob? For the most part, I solo'd all of my jobs up to level 20. I only broke down to party in the Dunes when people wouldn't stop begging me to group up, when I was perfectly content not dying on my own.

Quote:
'Tactical Mage'


ROFL

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 10:15pm by TheJollyjokers


So you're saying as soon as you bought the game and hopped on you already knew which sub jobs wouldn't work? And you were also too good to play with other people who just started the game?
#16 Sep 16 2009 at 6:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Veidt wrote:
TheJollyjokers wrote:
Quote:
Well they couldn't be worse than a warrior with no sub job right?


Should I be considered a snob, if I said I wouldn't join a party with a tank who has no subjob? For the most part, I solo'd all of my jobs up to level 20. I only broke down to party in the Dunes when people wouldn't stop begging me to group up, when I was perfectly content not dying on my own.

Quote:
'Tactical Mage'


ROFL

Edited, Sep 15th 2009 10:15pm by TheJollyjokers


So you're saying as soon as you bought the game and hopped on you already knew which sub jobs wouldn't work? And you were also too good to play with other people who just started the game?
XI wasn't my first MMO, so I had a pretty good sense of what I was getting myself into when dealing with other people. That being said, my first 75 was Beastmaster.

I kind of understand what he's talking about, though. I solo'd most of my jobs to 37 because grouping was just not efficient most of the time. Sure, it was fun I guess, but between running to camps and waiting on other people, it just didn't make sense to waste the time.
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#17 Sep 16 2009 at 7:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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I never found subjobs for dd or warriors to in the dunes to be all that important. It realy wasn't enough to make that big of a difference.
#18 Sep 16 2009 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So you're saying as soon as you bought the game and hopped on you already knew which sub jobs wouldn't work? And you were also too good to play with other people who just started the game?


Quote:
I had a pretty good sense of what I was getting myself into when dealing with other people. That being said, my first 75 was Beastmaster.


This pretty much sums it up. My first job to 75 was Beastmaster, too. The thing about that job is that it teaches you how to survive well on your own, taking on the role as puller/DD/tank/healer. The subjob combinations made sense to me, and I tried a variety of them. To start, the first few levels I went as BST/WAR. Then, for awhile I used BST/WHM. Once I hit a certain level, I started using BST/NIN most of the time.
I had a level 100+3 Mithra cooking mule named Sloppyjoes, which I used on a regular basis to make me Yagudo drinks and Pamama/Persikos au laits, any food required for the situation, jugpets, and pet food. I also had three Persikos gardening mules to keep me stocked up. Pamamas were dirt cheap in Kazam. With all of the unstackable hides that dropped from the monsters, I leveled Leathercrafting along the way to convert hides into stacks, eventually reaching 100+3, too.
After BST 75, every job is cake to solo. It wasn't that I was too good to party with new players, but that I could level more efficiently and safely on my own up to level 20. I'd rack up the xp by chaining even match to tough Goblin melees. I've raced Dunes' parties to 20, and the only way they could beat me, is if they had a good PL.



Edited, Sep 16th 2009 9:57am by TheJollyjokers
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#19 Sep 26 2009 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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I never found subjobs for dd or warriors to in the dunes to be all that important. It realy wasn't enough to make that big of a difference.


The hideous truth that higher leveling ruined for us all.

Go check the stat difference between war/whm and war/nin at level 20 and tell me how much more STR, VIT or DEX the job has. One? Two? The HP difference isn't enough to even get made up by the cures you get /whm.

Once your subjob gives you something that matters, with really the only exception being provoke for anyone trying to tank, is the only time where it starts to really make a difference. Fact is until level 30ish, most jobs get nothing useful from their subjob.

The reason reason the war/whms u partied with failed wasn't because of the job combination itself, but because they were a player who really didn't have the gear or skill to support it.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 1:57pm by thesuperestbeef
#20 Sep 26 2009 at 12:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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WAR/whm isn't any worse than WAR/nin in the dunes. Actually, I'd say /whm is better if you actually didn't have a PL. The best sub for WAR is /mnk, but I don't even see that being brought up. The only reason your WAR/whm died is because your healer failed or you were over-hunting in general.
#21 Sep 26 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Before level 20, there are actually some surprisingly decent subjobs:

/bard - the 1hp/tick regen is fixed and with the low hp amounts, it does help
/dancer - Drain Samba, of course, but only one person is allowed to be dnc/dnc.
/warrior - Provoke, of course.
/monk - Boost. There are more useful subjobs, but this really the only DD one.
/corsair - Corsair's Roll. A small xp boost is better than no xp boost?
/whm - Yes, this was just mocked, but with the right set up, it can be useful.

After level 20, you have /corsair and /ranger, both offering at least +10 accuracy (most of the time, with /corsair).
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#22 Sep 26 2009 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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back during release you did NOT solo past 11 or 12. I miss the early days when I wasnt jaded with all of the 11 nonsense.
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#23 Sep 26 2009 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I remember quite a few parties in the Dunes with Warrior/Whitemage tanks, trying to be pseudo-Paladins. They typically died a lot, leaving me to type /disband party.Smiley: lol


Derp, I tanked with no subjob in the dunes when I began. That doesn't mean I died alot. That's how every tank in FFXI ever began, as a Warrior.
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#24 Sep 26 2009 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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Derp, I tanked with no subjob in the dunes when I began. That doesn't mean I died alot. That's how every tank in FFXI ever began, as a Warrior.


Or as a Monk untill you get the subjob and then you switched over hehe.

But then again, I too started well before most jobs ever had a hope of killing a T mob past about 13 solo.. and even then the chance was so slim unless you were a rng killing worms.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 10:18pm by zurinadrg
#25 Sep 27 2009 at 5:26 AM Rating: Good
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Lately if the LS or a friend asks me to go to a dunes party on a melee, I sub cor. If I'm on cor, I sub bard.

On topic, I sure hope there isn't a cap to learned abilities and skills and whatnot. Before things are tested to see exactly how useful they are, a large portion of us could be making something like a ffxi war/whm without knowing any better. Or in the end it could end up war/whm is the new sam. Who knows. As long as we can 'fix' what we have previously learned I'm ok with whatever there.
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#26 Sep 30 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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As a starting RDM with no sub in the v dunesI personaly felt that I was the most usless in parties during that time, but that could be because I was a newb and had the worst gear. Which is a point I would like to bring up, sub jobs were insignificant when compared to what gear you brought with you to the v dunes.A pair of Astral rings could make a bad party a great party, especialy when your whm is a galka.
#27 Sep 30 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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The main reason the FFXI community is so obsessed with YOU MUST HAVE THE RIGHT SUBJOB FROM LEVEL 1 GROOOARRRGH is because when you die, you lose experience/progess/time. Would anyone care nearly as much about the WAR/WHM if there was no measurable penalty for dying? Of course you'll still get the elitists and the min/maxers; they're always going to be there.

I think we could all have a good laugh and relax in a party even if one or two of the members are complete failures, so long as their faults don't have a huge impact on everyone else. I would like for FFXIV's community to be regularly tolerant of experimentalists, newbies, and the crazy guy who closes his eyes and randomly picks abilities to use today. Naturally, plenty of situations will call for more seriousness, for every person in a party to bring their 'A' game. Still, I'd like to be able to log in one day, pick a casual guildleve, start forming a party, and when the buttersheep asks me if he can join, I can say "Why the **** not?"

Edited, Sep 30th 2009 5:31pm by TraumaFox
#28 Sep 30 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think it's as much the loss of exp that demands the "ideal" sub jobs as the elitist mentality. If you don't have the best sub you suck. If you don't have HQ gear you suck. If your job isn't (insert current best DD or tank) you suck etc.
#29 Oct 02 2009 at 7:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Veidt wrote:
I don't think it's as much the loss of exp that demands the "ideal" sub jobs as the elitist mentality. If you don't have the best sub you suck. If you don't have HQ gear you suck. If your job isn't (insert current best DD or tank) you suck etc.


My argument is that part of this elitism comes from the fact that dying is such a setback. Certainly some people are just obsessed with maximizing exp/hour efficiency, and some people are just elitist all the time, but I believe the community would be more laid-back (not that elitism would disappear, but it would recede) if there wasn't such an emphasis on staying alive. Of course you don't go to a party expecting to die (well, maybe), but the general mindset is "I'm going to be so ****** off if I die."

We did see in the demo that killing mobs gives a numeric representation of skill earned for your weapon. Hopefully growth will vary between players/weapons enough that parties won't emphasize maximizing measurables. If you can curb the need to measure efficiency and make the penalty for death negligible, I predict the rampant elitism we see in FFXI will fade dramatically in FFXIV.
#30 Oct 02 2009 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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TraumaFox wrote:
My argument is that part of this elitism comes from the fact that dying is such a setback. Certainly some people are just obsessed with maximizing exp/hour efficiency, and some people are just elitist all the time, but I believe the community would be more laid-back (not that elitism would disappear, but it would recede) if there wasn't such an emphasis on staying alive. Of course you don't go to a party expecting to die (well, maybe), but the general mindset is "I'm going to be so ****** off if I die."


While I agree with you (and would add that the time investment required to level also contributed to the "perfect everything or you're a gimp" mentality), I'd really hate to see a negligible penalty for dying. I hate dying as much as the next guy (you should have heard me when I got flattened by a Gigantobuggered not five feet from the Tavnazian Safehold zone line earlier today), but I really do enjoy the "danger" involved in doing something risky. Remove the stiff death penalty and that feeling goes away. LotRO really suffered from that. Death meant absolutely nothing unless the rez circle was a long walk from where you wanted to be. Then it just meant a long walk back.
#31 Oct 02 2009 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I know what you mean, but unfortunately it's just a paradox with no truly good compromise. The higher the penalty, the less adventurous people will be and the more frustrated they'll be (which is bad), and the lower the penalty, the less a sense of danger. Anywhere you place it on the spectrum there's pretty much the same level of suck one way or another (unless the penalties are too extreme). Personally I tend to think it's better to lean away from penalties.

But maybe an adjustable difficulty mode of sorts would allow each player to choose the penalty that's right for them. Make their difficulty status visible or something, I don't know.
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#32 Oct 03 2009 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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War/whm would be ok early level I think. In FFXI grouping was too important to allow you to play the type of character you wanted such as war/whm unless soloing. Hopefully FFXIV will change that. I really liked grouping just not the "I wouldn't party in a group w/o a bard" or "I wouldn't party with a warrior without a subjob, even in the dunes" aspect of it. Like some people wouldn't group with a mnk becuase drk does so much more damage... it wouldn't be as big of a deal if it were at least true. I remember when bard wasn't even a playable class. I wonder what the "What?? your group doesn't have a bard? no thanks" people would have done then?


edit:spelling

Edited, Oct 5th 2009 8:52pm by Nalamwen
#33 Oct 05 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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I remember reading that strategy guide when I was first playing ffxi and reading about war/whm.

Even as a new player i was like, "who the **** would do that"
#34 Oct 05 2009 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm pretty sure it is exp gain that causes optimal jobs, not avoiding exp loss. (If exp loss was the reason for job choices, WAR/WHM would have been a great choice, as would have been BST mains, assuming they had some backup for failed charms)
#35 Sep 11 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Default
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Quick question for XIV... is there gonna be any subclass type of thing? I know I have extra Fishing skills YAY! (not)
but I mean... and NOT that I would... but in theory do Conjurer/Pugilist or something....

still not happy with job system in xiv looking for anything that might make it cooler to me.

Edited, Sep 11th 2010 2:52pm by gennji
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#36 Sep 11 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Default
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No need for a subjob when u can hop on ur Glad and toss skills from any other class you have LVd. A mix of skills from any class you have LVd beats the tiny bit of xtra skills you get from a SJ any day. I have not played the game at all yet but from the tons of info i have read and the vids i have seen i think ima love playing this game a lot.

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#37 Sep 11 2010 at 1:45 PM Rating: Default
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How do u hop from job to job? I am a Conjurer right now, how would I become a Gladiator with same character, is this what you mean?
Thanks for the info
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#38 Sep 11 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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From everything I've read, you change "jobs" by changing your weapon. I'm not playing the beta so it may be a little more involved, but that is how it was explained to me.
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#39 Sep 11 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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ReiThor wrote:
From everything I've read, you change "jobs" by changing your weapon. I'm not playing the beta so it may be a little more involved, but that is how it was explained to me.


This is correct. Changing your main hand weapon will change your class. You'd then want to make sure you change any other corresponding equipment, as well set up your action bar. Most people are doing this with macros.
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#40 Sep 12 2010 at 10:00 AM Rating: Default
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Yes, I can put a fishing pole in my hand and be a fisherman... I am gonna go buy a sword... see If I become a GLD..

Most FF and RPG games do not allow a Mage to simply go buy and equip a sword, but Sqaure enix does appear to be ignoring all classics RPG styles right now.

So I dont think this is what people are saying, but for 600gil I'll give it a shot.

But yeah, I can be a Miner/fisherman/Botanist.. a few things, but I cant cook and I am almost certain I can't start swinging a sword around, we will see, bbl...
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#41 Sep 12 2010 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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#42 Sep 15 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Default
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ok.... well... I guess I can... I think I like it... not having to go ALL the way back somewhere to change my job

I can run around lvling my Mage and when I see a tougher Enemy, I just break out my axe (macro love) and go to town.
Or bow for Range attack... kinda nice, This is ONLY nice if you set it up with Macros
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#43 Sep 15 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:
The early days were wonderful.


Once, I remember partying with a level 10 rdm to duo junk in Tahrongi back in like 2004. He cast only Dia over and over. When I died and asked why he wasn't healing me, he exclaimed that he was a 'Tactical Mage' and not a healer.


Smiley: lol
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#44 Sep 15 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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gennji wrote:
ok.... well... I guess I can... I think I like it... not having to go ALL the way back somewhere to change my job

I can run around lvling my Mage and when I see a tougher Enemy, I just break out my axe (macro love) and go to town.
Or bow for Range attack... kinda nice, This is ONLY nice if you set it up with Macros


Yeah the job system is pretty great. I like it a lot.

Once you have a few jobs leveled it really allows you to play each job however you want to. Like I am playing a gladiator (rank 6) with these skills equipped:

light slash, guard, light stab, red lotus blade, radiance (rank 10 conjurer weapon skill), cure (rank 4 conjurer spell), shock spikes (rank 8 conjurer spell)

Radiance works great as a weaponskill on gladiator - and it helps me restore MP so I can use my spells/lotus blade in the field without having to return to a crystal as often.

I've also used skills like sacrifice (like a cure + regen) - Raging Strike (archer skill that enhances next attack) concussive blow and second wind.

Yes, all the spells etc are less powerful and have a longer recast timer on a glad - but the versatility is AMAZING. It is great to have so many choices about the kind of playstyle you want. If I wanted to I could pull off a couple spells and add some more weapon skills and increase my damage dealing - I'd be sacrificing my defensive abilities - but we get to choose - which is really fun.

One of the great things about starting from release is people won't have had the chance to get really snobby about builds. Sure some of us will play with skills on that aren't optimal - but we will all get the chance to figure out what works -for us- rather than what some parsing program says is the ideal build.

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