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Hopeful Beta Promotion.Follow

#1 Sep 17 2009 at 5:51 AM Rating: Decent
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If Final Fantasy XIV comes out a few months after FFXIII. Do you guys think that Square Enix may release a promo for FFXIV beta codes with every FFXIII preorder. It seems very common today. I mean I received a beta code pre-ordering socom confrontation.

It could be more of an Open beta thing, although it could help market both FFXIII and FFXIV... or even also FFvXIII.

What do you guys think? I probably wouldn't buy FFXIII at launch, although I would pre-order it in a heart beat if it got me into a FFXIV beta.

On the other hand do you guys think of this as a negative. Pushing FFXIV further back to increase sales of FFXIII. Or limiting beta entrance to only Pre-Orders.

Other options could be to sign up... random lottery.
Qore annual member beta entrance for PS3 version.... (I got into the Resistance 2 beta, PSHome beta, Uncharted 2 multiplayer beta, as well as the new upcoming MAG beta. with the annual Qore subscription.)


Edited, Sep 17th 2009 9:55am by EliteDW
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#2 Sep 17 2009 at 5:56 AM Rating: Default
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I think they'll just release the beta codes with the game for the first week that they're buyable. SE, from my point of view, is not a company who wants you to spend all of your money on stuff like that.
Now, if they were Walmart, you know they would probabley add like "FFXIII includes FFXIV beta code!".
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#3 Sep 17 2009 at 6:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Lol a walmart made mmo, I could only imagine what that would be like.
#4CommanderKing, Posted: Sep 17 2009 at 8:07 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Stop making topics about beta guys... seriously.
#5 Sep 17 2009 at 8:25 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Stop making topics about beta guys... seriously.

When they announce it officially then you'll know the details and such....

Patience is a virtue.


This entire forum is about speculations and announced info, which includes speculation of beta releases. My topic wasn't asking when the beta will be released. Its just a discussion about if it is likely a beta promo of FFXIV would come out in order to help market FFXIII and FFXIV. Other than that, no one knows of a beta announcement. Its just speculations at the moment.

Edited, Sep 17th 2009 12:26pm by EliteDW
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#6 Sep 17 2009 at 8:34 AM Rating: Decent
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CommanderKing wrote:
Stop making topics about beta guys... seriously.

When they announce it officially then you'll know the details and such....

Patience is a virtue.



Pshh, just because we talk about it doesn't mean we don't have patience...we aren't breaking down the doors of SE demanding our beta are we? I say that's patience enough.


Anywho, just a week or so ago SE announced they were delaying the US version of FFXIII. Now, I don't know if that means FFXIV will be delayed as well but it may also mean FFXIII might not be released here in the US before FFXIV.

They can also guarantee a spot in beta if you pre-order FFXIV...lots of MMOs do that too. I think it has worked well for Aion.
#7 Sep 17 2009 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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foxblade wrote:
Lol a walmart made mmo, I could only imagine what that would be like.


Okay, a couple of problems with a WalMart MMO:

1) All jobs would involve maximum grind for minimum reward.

2) Not only would there be no distinct classes, there would simply be no class.

3) WalMart already imports most of its plastic crap from the largest RMT economy in the world. Do you really want to encourage them?
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#8 Sep 17 2009 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't want them to do an open beta. :/
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#9 Sep 17 2009 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Hey EliteDW, I'm also in the MAG beta. I was in the first wave, and looking forward to getting back to it this evening. PSN MechaGhidora if you want to link up and shoot stuff.
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#10 Sep 17 2009 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, I hope they don't do it. SE has become money hungry and they've decided to downgrade a game for money so I was planning on buying FFXIII used just to not support that decision they made. If they make the beta code come with the game pre-order, I guess I could just pre-order it, get my code, and then cancel my pre-order. ;)
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#11 Sep 17 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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SE might have to do an open beta to try out a load test.
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#12 Sep 17 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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EpedemicOptikz wrote:
I guess I could just pre-order it, get my code, and then cancel my pre-order. ;)


They usually have it where you can't do this. The beta probably wouldn't start until after the game releases or something to that effect, meaning you couldn't get the code before paying for FFXIII.
#13 Sep 17 2009 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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EliteDW wrote:
SE might have to do an open beta to try out a load test.
A closed, invite-only beta would work fine. This is what I prefer, simply because it leaves the beta in the hands of people who are a little more qualified to point out gameplay flaws. Usually other game developers, game retailers, and people who go pretty far out of their way to be a part of the process take it pretty seriously. I don't want it to end up like some of the other betas I've been in where every 12 year old can get into it and be a **** because the community will be gone in a few months.
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#14 Sep 18 2009 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
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Isn't the beta likely to be for Japanese players only? I honestly don't know if there was a NA FFXI beta, but I thought it was just released here with no open NA beta.
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#15 Sep 18 2009 at 5:57 AM Rating: Decent
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After FFXII, the only way to sell XIII would be for a beta code to XIV. Then again, considering the shape of XI at the moment, I don't know if even that'll help it.
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#16 Sep 18 2009 at 6:33 AM Rating: Default
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It is sort of funny/sad the way the Final Fantasy franchise has been going lately, particularly the numerals.

XI is an MMO.
XII was barely even reminiscent of a Final Fantasy title.
XIV is another MMO.

XIII really needs to step it up if the franchise is going to maintain its reputation, considering it will have been nearly a decade since they've created something really meriting a numeral even if it does.
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#17 Sep 18 2009 at 7:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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I liked XII, it was a fun game. D:
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#18 Sep 18 2009 at 7:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It is sort of funny/sad the way the Final Fantasy franchise has been going lately, particularly the numerals.

XI is an MMO.
XII was barely even reminiscent of a Final Fantasy title.
XIV is another MMO.


This is just my opinion, but to me the Final Fantasy series point was always about trying out new things. Instead of duplicating the same game over and over again, Square has always tried to think of new features since FFII came out. That's why I feel that XI and XII deserve the title 'Final Fantasy' as much as I-X do. Be it the theme of game or the battle system, there's always something different about each title, sometimes less, sometimes more, but enough to make each game feel different from each other. XI and XII are just another examples of this (XIV, from the sound of it, will be a good example as well).
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#19 Sep 18 2009 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Personally I will buy FFXIII at launch either way, and to be honest I would probably throw away the beta-codes if there was an offer like that. I have been in several betas for mmo games and all it has done for me is ruin it. Beta games are just too ****** up and change too much for it to do anything but ruin the experience. There are so many other, much more qualified, people out there that will do a great job, without me having to ruin the experience for myself when I first step into the new FF world. I just hope when the game is released, it is actually ready unlike so many mmo games nowadays.
#20 Sep 18 2009 at 8:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I've played them all, and I can confidently say that XI and XII were far more divergent titles than there had ever historically been, particularly discounting technological shifts. There have always been some innovations and major changes, but compared to most transitions, XI and XII were basically complete re-writes. XI actually less so than XII probably, and XI was a pretty huge leap.

But then XII hardly rings of a true numeral to me. They should have named it Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced: Dungeon Crawler.

The thing is, while there have always been major changes, there has also always been a level of consistency. I'm not just talking about Chocobos and guys named Cid, but about atmosphere, gameplay elements-- they have never started from scratch as they did with the last two titles. Now, in XI's defense, it was an inevitability.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#21 Sep 18 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
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The change usually seems different although We remember FFX and FFXI being developed by Square... then for FFXII and up you could see that shift since Enix Bought Square to become Square-Enix.
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#22 Sep 18 2009 at 8:49 AM Rating: Default
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The thing is, while there have always been major changes, there has also always been a level of consistency. I'm not just talking about Chocobos and guys named Cid, but about atmosphere, gameplay elements-- they have never started from scratch as they did with the last two titles. Now, in XI's defense, it was an inevitability.


Maybe it's the fact that I got into the series so late in it's lifespan, but the fact that the games constantly change and evolve is what I consider to be it's biggest strength.

If someone has been used to one kind of gameplay for so long, it might be hard to have an open mind for something new. Maybe XII took the transition to a new kind of gameplay a bit too far too fast, but I still think even then it deserves the Final Fantasy title as much as the games before it that didn't take as massive steps as XII did.
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#23 Sep 18 2009 at 8:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Belcrono wrote:
Personally I will buy FFXIII at launch either way, and to be honest I would probably throw away the beta-codes if there was an offer like that. I have been in several betas for mmo games and all it has done for me is ruin it. Beta games are just too @#%^ed up and change too much for it to do anything but ruin the experience. There are so many other, much more qualified, people out there that will do a great job, without me having to ruin the experience for myself when I first step into the new FF world. I just hope when the game is released, it is actually ready unlike so many mmo games nowadays.
Enix won't release the game until it's ready. They've ****** up a lot of things in the past, and nobody can deny that, but when they have released games and expansions, they have been in nothing but excellent working order. I have faith that this will be no exception.
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#24 Sep 18 2009 at 12:22 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:

If someone has been used to one kind of gameplay for so long, it might be hard to have an open mind for something new. Maybe XII took the transition to a new kind of gameplay a bit too far too fast, but I still think even then it deserves the Final Fantasy title as much as the games before it that didn't take as massive steps as XII did.


Really, if it were just a matter of being "too innovative" I would have been very forgiving. Unfortunately that wasn't the case with XII. For example:

1: A relative abandonment of a story with compelling, likable characters.
2: Almost completely borrowing the world conceptually from another Final Fantasy universe, rather than creating a new one.
3: Borrowing pretty heavily from the gameplay of FFXI. The game is very much an offline MMO, and when I first played the demo, I couldn't help but notice how strikingly similar it played to XI.

And while adding very little. A more expansive world, voice acting, and some pretty nice graphics.

So when I say it was divergent, I don't even mean that it was especially creative and innovative. I don't mean that it's a bad game-- I think it's not an especially good game. I think the same of FFTA/FFTA2. It's lacking important elements of a numeral while not living up to the standard as a whole.

SE makes a lot of games, and they could have easily called this game something else. I happen to think they should have, rather than watering down the label. People don't hold the Crystal Chronicle games or the Tactics Advanced games to the same standards as a game with a roman numeral. The same goes for games like FFX-2, Dirge of Cerberus, Crisis Core, and even Dissidia. If those games are amazing, then great, but they don't carry the same expectation. Well, when you slap a number on a game that doesn't live up to that expectation, it diminishes the expectation.

Don't mean to sound bitter or anything; I just think it's poor business sense.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#25 Sep 18 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Really, if it were just a matter of being "too innovative" I would have been very forgiving. Unfortunately that wasn't the case with XII. For example:

1: A relative abandonment of a story with compelling, likable characters.
2: Almost completely borrowing the world conceptually from another Final Fantasy universe, rather than creating a new one.
3: Borrowing pretty heavily from the gameplay of FFXI. The game is very much an offline MMO, and when I first played the demo, I couldn't help but notice how strikingly similar it played to XI.


The difference about the story of XII and other games was that it wasn't about the characters but something greater instead. Politics where the characters were chessmen. It wasn't an abandonment, only a different type of story. Obviously less people liked it compared to the normal love story/personal feelings soap opera they've been used to, but I think it was a nice breath of fresh air honestly. It's not for everyone, but it doesn't make it a less of a story nonetheless. Just because it involves politics and characters take more of a backseat that doesn't tell anything about the quality of the story, nor that 'Final Fantasy' should have compelling, likable characters to be a real 'Final Fantasy'.

FFII-X borrowed pretty heavily from the gameplay of FFI; what's your point? I also don't know how could you think of the game as an offline 'Massive Multiplayer Online' game when it's neither massive multiplayer nor online but yeah, it's an RPG like FFXI is.

Quote:
SE makes a lot of games, and they could have easily called this game something else. I happen to think they should have, rather than watering down the label. People don't hold the Crystal Chronicle games or the Tactics Advanced games to the same standards as a game with a roman numeral. The same goes for games like FFX-2, Dirge of Cerberus, Crisis Core, and even Dissidia. If those games are amazing, then great, but they don't carry the same expectation. Well, when you slap a number on a game that doesn't live up to that expectation, it diminishes the expectation.


Could they? Not really. So much money was put into the product that the only way to make it sell enough was to call it 'Final Fantasy #', because the name sells, not the quality of said game, as sad as it is (or rather in this case, both in one sell better than just one or the other).

And overall the game was very polished and with few bugs as you would expect. Only because it did what every Final Fantasy had done before is no reason to not call it a real Final Fantasy.

Edited, Sep 18th 2009 8:45pm by Hyanmen

Edited, Sep 18th 2009 8:50pm by Hyanmen
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#26 Sep 18 2009 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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The difference about the story of XII and other games was that it wasn't about the characters but something greater instead. Politics where the characters were chessmen. It wasn't an abandonment, only a different type of story. Obviously less people liked it compared to the normal love story/personal feelings soap opera they've been used to, but I think it was a nice breath of fresh air honestly. It's not for everyone, but it doesn't make it a less of a story nonetheless. Just because it involves politics and characters take more of a backseat that doesn't tell anything about the quality of the story, nor that 'Final Fantasy' should have compelling, likable characters to be a real 'Final Fantasy'.


My comment was not about the quality of the story, but relative lack of it. The story was unimportant to the game, and the characters were unimportant to the story. This level of story absence hasn't been seen since probably FF3, maybe FF1.

Quote:
FFII-X borrowed pretty heavily from the gameplay of FFI; what's your point? I also don't know how could you think of the game as an offline 'Massive Multiplayer Online' game when it's neither massive multiplayer nor online but yeah, it's an RPG like FFXI is.


But as you've already admitted, FFII-X had other noteworthy innovations.

As for offline MMO's, they're nothing new. There are actually several games like this, and it's not just my opinion-- people frequently comment that they feel like an offline MMO. There are actually MMOs with offline modes, for example. Even if you take it offline and take away all the other players, it still feels like playing an MMO. The controls for XII were actually almost identical to XI in addition to this.

But you'd be correct if you're saying that MMO gameplay is rather boring without the online multiplayer aspects.

Quote:
Could they? Not really. So much money was put into the product that the only way to make it sell enough was to call it 'Final Fantasy #', because the name sells, not the quality of said game, as sad as it is.


Oh come on, neither of us have access to SE's bank book.

But regardless, the name will only sell for as long as it is a symbol of quality, which was my point. Most people who were going to buy XII bought it regardless of reviews, true. But they're also more hesitant to buy XIII. Fortunately, XIII looks awesome. If it's not, you can bet that people will stop associating "Final Fantasy #" with "games I should buy."
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#27 Sep 18 2009 at 1:59 PM Rating: Default
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My comment was not about the quality of the story, but relative lack of it. The story was unimportant to the game, and the characters were unimportant to the story. This level of story absence hasn't been seen since probably FF3, maybe FF1.


It's too bad I think no one's ever counted, but I bet XII has at least as many cutscenes as the earlier games in the series. I'm not really sure what you mean by lack of the story.. but to compare it to FFI or FFIII (even relatively) is just wrong. Although.. in that case it seems to copy the Original Final Fantasy, and that's why it's not a Final Fantasy at all? Okay.

Quote:
But as you've already admitted, FFII-X had other noteworthy innovations.

As for offline MMO's, they're nothing new. There are actually several games like this, and it's not just my opinion-- people frequently comment that they feel like an offline MMO. There are actually MMOs with offline modes, for example. Even if you take it offline and take away all the other players, it still feels like playing an MMO. The controls for XII were actually almost identical to XI in addition to this.

But you'd be correct if you're saying that MMO gameplay is rather boring without the online multiplayer aspects.


And so did XII.. it's still not an exact copy of FFXI, just like FFIX isn't an exact copy of FFVIII, although they share a lot of similarities.

I didn't feel like playing an MMO when I played FFXII. It sure felt like playing an RPG though, with lots of similarities to FFXI. Even though the battle systems are similar, that's not what made FFXI 'MMO' in the first place. You could find similar battle system like in XI from any RPG easily, the game doesn't have to be an 'MMO' to have battle system like that. Same goes for the controls, which aren't somehow connected to the game being an MMO. As a matter of fact, I think it's the opposite; FFXI's gamepad controls felt more like online RPG's rather than MMO's controls in the first place.

Quote:
But regardless, the name will only sell for as long as it is a symbol of quality, which was my point. Most people who were going to buy XII bought it regardless of reviews, true. But they're also more hesitant to buy XIII. Fortunately, XIII looks awesome. If it's not, you can bet that people will stop associating "Final Fantasy #" with "games I should buy."


Hesitant because the quality was bad, or because the game was too different? Difference is a scary thing indeed. Change is a bad bad thing. A normal FF fan would say: "SE should just make endless sequels of FFVII without changing anything and I'd be happy" and so on..

XIII seems to be a step back on many aspects that were improved in XII.. but I think it's a necessary move. XII changed things too fast, only small updates are feasible or the fans will run away, scared by the new, changed features and unfamiliar atmosphere.
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#28 Sep 18 2009 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
As for offline MMO's, they're nothing new. There are actually several games like this, and it's not just my opinion-- people frequently comment that they feel like an offline MMO. There are actually MMOs with offline modes, for example. Even if you take it offline and take away all the other players, it still feels like playing an MMO. The controls for XII were actually almost identical to XI in addition to this.
Did you ever play Phantasy Star's offline mode? God, it was ******* horrible. XD
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Did you lose faith?
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But in doing so I came across the will to disagree.
And I gave up. Yes, I gave up, and then I gave in.
But I take responsibility for every single sin. ♪ ♫


Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#29 Sep 18 2009 at 2:24 PM Rating: Default
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Did you ever play Phantasy Star's offline mode? God, it was @#%^ing horrible. XD


I did.. you could see it was an offline mode of an MMO because it had like no depth to it at all.
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#30 Sep 18 2009 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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It's too bad I think no one's ever counted, but I bet XII has at least as many cutscenes as the earlier games in the series. I'm not really sure what you mean by lack of the story.. but to compare it to FFI or FFIII (even relatively) is just wrong. Although.. in that case it seems to copy the Original Final Fantasy, and that's why it's not a Final Fantasy at all? Okay.


Story, but little real character or plot development.

Comparing it to a time when stories were very limited by technology... apples to oranges. It really seems like you're intentionally missing my point.

Quote:
And so did XII..


Like what?

Because I can recognize the differences and there is nothing particularly innovative about any of them.

Quote:
like FFIX isn't an exact copy of FFVIII, although they share a lot of similarities.


No, they really didn't. You almost could not have picked two more completely different Final Fantasy titles.

In regards to offline MMOs, I'm not going to quibble with you over whether it's an offline MMO or an RPG that feels like certain MMOs or whatever semantic distinction you're trying to make. MMOs have particular gameplay elements and trends, chiefly due to the online multiplayer format. Games that borrow heavily from these elements tend to get branded with these observations by experienced gamers, and I am far from the first to observe that FFXII plays like an offline MMO.

Quote:
Hesitant because the quality was bad


Because the quality was mediocre. And don't strawman me by suggesting that I think change is bad. I've never even implied anything like that. It would be more accurate for me to say that you think all changes are good, wonderful things, but I won't do that because I'm not going to put words in your mouth.

The problem with the changes in FFXII was not that they were changes, but that they were rather poor changes.

Quote:
Did you ever play Phantasy Star's offline mode? God, it was @#%^ing horrible. XD


I actually played it for a rather long time. I didn't think it was horrible for its time. Like most offline MMO type games, it ends up feeling something like a dungeon crawler. Granted, a lot of people consider dungeon crawlers an awful design that deserves to stay dead, and I tend to agree. But they do have a limited appeal.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#31 Sep 18 2009 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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Zackary wrote:
Did you ever play Phantasy Star's offline mode? God, it was @#%^ing horrible. XD


Phantasy Star Online or Phantasy Star Universe? I actually enjoyed playing Phantasy Star Universe on 360. Same with Enchanted Arms, those are some hidden gems. And If you decide to play enchanted arms, get past the first 2-3 hours and you'll start to enjoy it. ;)

Edited, Sep 18th 2009 8:52pm by EpedemicOptikz
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#32 Sep 18 2009 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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where has this topic gone to? lol.
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#33 Sep 19 2009 at 12:18 AM Rating: Default
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Story, but little real character or plot development.

Comparing it to a time when stories were very limited by technology... apples to oranges. It really seems like you're intentionally missing my point.


Oh there was a lot of plot development- maybe you didn't care because it had not much to do with the characters, but I can't do anything about that. It's there, too bad you didn't notice.

FFII already had more emphasis on story than 1 did, and it was made for the same console. The technology wasn't as big of a limitation as you seem to imply.

Quote:
Like what?

Because I can recognize the differences and there is nothing particularly innovative about any of them.


Gambit system.. as well as the leveling system. The combat also isn't some copy of FFXI's (well, in a way that FFVII's battle system is a copy of FFX's it is). The fact that it was adjusted enough to fit into normal RPG environment is an innovation in itself.

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No, they really didn't. You almost could not have picked two more completely different Final Fantasy titles.


Hah, tell me about those differences.. in the end they're only little changes that don't mean much. The biggest difference was the theme and world of the game, but other than that it plays pretty much like any FF before it.

Quote:
In regards to offline MMOs, I'm not going to quibble with you over whether it's an offline MMO or an RPG that feels like certain MMOs or whatever semantic distinction you're trying to make. MMOs have particular gameplay elements and trends, chiefly due to the online multiplayer format. Games that borrow heavily from these elements tend to get branded with these observations by experienced gamers, and I am far from the first to observe that FFXII plays like an offline MMO.


Is the fact that FFXI is played with a controller a 'particular gameplay element' found in MMO's? No, it's not. Actually, almost every single feature that came from FFXI isn't one of those 'particular gameplay elements'.

What you have observed is that FFXII plays like an offline FFXI, with MMO elements left out and RPG elements left in. You could also say 'FFIX plays like FFVIII', but that's normal for Final Fantasy titles.

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Because the quality was mediocre. And don't strawman me by suggesting that I think change is bad. I've never even implied anything like that. It would be more accurate for me to say that you think all changes are good, wonderful things, but I won't do that because I'm not going to put words in your mouth.

The problem with the changes in FFXII was not that they were changes, but that they were rather poor changes.


If the quality was mediocre, how could the game have gotten the great reviews it did when it came out? The quality being mediocre is only your imagination, nothing more. The game was just as polished (if not more) than it's predecessors. It borrowed a lot from the earlier series, just as every one of them had done before.

And to say the changes were poor; what is wrong with FFXII's changes that made them somehow 'poor'? I'm sorry that you don't like a story that emphasizes politics instead of the characters, but that doesn't make the change poor in any way. The fact the game got away from random encounters is a feature I wouldn't consider poor either, but I could understand if you're one of those people who think change is bad. But you're not one of those people (or that's what you'd like to think).. So the only thing I could think of is that they're poor because they borrowed from XI instead of the games before it. As for Why this is a bad thing, you'll have to enlighten me. Was FFXI's battle system that bad? I think it was actually better than in the most games in the series (aside from being slow as ****, which was fixed in XII).


Edited, Sep 19th 2009 8:20am by Hyanmen
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#34 Sep 19 2009 at 3:08 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Gambit system..
Which was just the Sphere Grid, except it made me feel like the characters were retarded because they had to go outside town and kill rats in order to learn how to wear a hat.
Hyanmen wrote:
If the quality was mediocre, how could the game have gotten the great reviews it did when it came out?
Please, like magazine and online reviews amount to anything. These are people that still rave about how amazing Final Fantasy 7 was.
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#35 Sep 19 2009 at 3:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Which was just the Sphere Grid, except it made me feel like the characters were retarded because they had to go outside town and kill rats in order to learn how to wear a hat.


License board =! Gambits.

Quote:
Please, like magazine and online reviews amount to anything. These are people that still rave about how amazing Final Fantasy 7 was.


Which makes it even more impressive that the game got good reviews. Those kind of people want FF7-2, not a new kind of FF-experience (which XII was for 90% of the fanbase).

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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#36 Sep 19 2009 at 4:05 AM Rating: Decent
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EpedemicOptikz wrote:
Zackary wrote:
Did you ever play Phantasy Star's offline mode? God, it was @#%^ing horrible. XD


Phantasy Star Online or Phantasy Star Universe? I actually enjoyed playing Phantasy Star Universe on 360. Same with Enchanted Arms, those are some hidden gems. And If you decide to play enchanted arms, get past the first 2-3 hours and you'll start to enjoy it. ;)

Edited, Sep 18th 2009 8:52pm by EpedemicOptikz
After having played PSO, I couldn't bring myself to buy Universe. And I'm glad I didn't, because it flopped a lot like I figured it would.
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#37 Sep 19 2009 at 5:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Remember when this thread was about the beta?



Zackary, you can have an open beta and still have people who will actually "Test" the game. A closed, invite only beta would work as well, but an open beta allows for both last minute adjustments AND good publicity for the game; ****, half the reason Warhammer did so well at first was because of its Open Beta, same with Aion (IMO half its subscribers will quit 3 months from now), meaning that those companies were more successful than they would have been otherwise without an open beta.

With this game, an open beta makes sense because S-E really wants to get a more broad audience than it acquired with FFXI (thus the more casual focus).
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#38 Sep 19 2009 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Gambit system.. as well as the leveling system. The combat also isn't some copy of FFXI's (well, in a way that FFVII's battle system is a copy of FFX's it is).


The Gambit system was new and innovative... but not good. That's the thing. You don't get points for trying new things if they don't work out right.

The combat is basically a copy. The abilities are different (and worse), and the gambit system basically gives you two adventuring fellows with customizable AI.

Also, player reviews are mixed at best. You will always be able to find people to talk up a Final Fantasy game-- particularly people who don't actually have a lot of RPGs under their belts, with little basis for comparison. When you have so many people willing to give it poor reviews, it's less than a good indication.

On all other points, whatever. I'm glad you liked the game despite it not being very good.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

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#39 Sep 19 2009 at 9:03 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
The combat is basically a copy. The abilities are different (and worse), and the gambit system basically gives you two adventuring fellows with customizable AI.


The combat of FFX is basically a copy of the one in FFI.. Why you'd think the abilities are worse, it's baffling.

Yeah, from the sounds of it you just seem to dislike the changes that happened in XII. Nothing wrong with that, but even if you dislike them it's still a title deserving the Final Fantasy name.

I didn't like the changes in FFVIII myself, I even think it was a step back from the earlier series in many ways, but I still think it's a title worth the name of Final Fantasy. The fact they change things even if the outcome may not be as pleasant as they'd hope is what makes it worthy.
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#40 Sep 19 2009 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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This is SE we're talking about, they aren't about to print out a bunch of cards with codes on them when they can just release the game after claiming to have a long beta and just let the players be the beta testers.

Now that I've read the detrail, I'll toss in my comments on that. XII was all eye candy and no substance. The story was bland and uninteresting and had little to nothing to do with most of the characters in the game. Not to mention they pulled out the evil twin cliche, I mean really, how terrible does a writer have to be to fall back on that silly concept?

The license board was just horrifically implemented. First you had to buy a piece of equipment or spell, and then you had to unlock it. Doing stuff twice just to drag out the length of the game has never been fun. Also, there was no in game way to know what the board looked like so you were practically forced to buy the Brady guide or look online to be able to customize your characters. Not that it mattered much, since once again, everyone can learn everything. With a little work you've turned your characters into carbon copies of one another by the end of the game. One of the things that I really miss (and loved about X-2) is a proper job system.

The needless grinding that SE loves so much also reared it's ugly head. You never really had enough money to buy stuff when it became available and by the time you did make enough money for it you only got to use it for a few levels before something better came along. Basically, if you wanted to have decent equipment before it became obsolete you were forced to farm, something that should never pop up in a solo game.

Another needless time sink was having to check the board for a hunt, then find the person that posted it to accept the hunt, then go on the hunt, some of which had terribly unintuitive spawn conditions, which again forced you to look outside of the game to find out what to do, then fight the monster, and then finally run back, sometimes way back, to the person you got the quest from to get your reward. The entire system very badly needed streamlined.

There was also the issue of that silly polearm. How in the **** did SE expect anyone to know that you shouldn't open up those few chests out of the hundreds in the game? There was no hint in game whatsoever to deter you from opening them.

And then we come to the Gambit system, which if used correctly, you could literally walk away and let the game play itself. It's not a bad idea to let your party members automatically deal with some things themselves, but SE took it too far. It really takes a lot of the feeling of accomplishment out of the game when you know you could have just programmed it and left the room without consequence.

Finally I'll mention the graphics, which for the PS2 were very good. But why in the **** did they feel the need to make the first five hours of the game take place in boring featureless brown deserts? There was also the little tidbit about the main character yet again being an adolescent barely clothed *******. It was just plain unpleasant to look at that abomination of character.

The real issue I had with the game though was practically requiring a player to buy the Brady guide to get the most out of the game. There was ton of stuff that you have no real way to even know about without looking it up. A single player game should be self contained, there should be no need to go looking anywhere but in the game to find out what you need to do. This is something that SE has been getting increasingly bad at and it's the main reason why I probably won't bother with XIII at all.

Edited, Sep 19th 2009 2:28pm by Turin
#41 Sep 19 2009 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
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The combat of FFX is basically a copy of the one in FFI.. Why you'd think the abilities are worse, it's baffling.

Yeah, from the sounds of it you just seem to dislike the changes that happened in XII. Nothing wrong with that, but even if you dislike them it's still a title deserving the Final Fantasy name.

I didn't like the changes in FFVIII myself, I even think it was a step back from the earlier series in many ways, but I still think it's a title worth the name of Final Fantasy. The fact they change things even if the outcome may not be as pleasant as they'd hope is what makes it worthy.


And you won't find me singing praises for the combat system of FFX-- it wasn't bad, but it also wasn't one of the things that made the game successful. It also wasn't my favorite FF by far, but that's not the issue.

It has little to nothing to do with changes, and mostly to do with quality. While its true that there were things that were totally forsaken with XII that have been characteristic of basically every Final Fantasy game, I can forgive those sacrifices if the quality is intact. Even though I still might not think the game should be given a numeral.

I don't think it was deserving of a Final Fantasy numeral because it was of a lesser quality than the more recent releases, plain and simple. While you can argue that it's a decent title, the general consensus is that in the context of time that it was released, it was probably the worst title since II or III, and those are hard for me to judge personally because of the delayed release. Discounting delayed releases, it was easily the worst NA release in the context of its time.

And I wasn't a big fan of VIII either. There were many design elements that just didn't suit me and I would quickly criticize. I would also easily say that it takes the "next worst" slot of the more recent FF titles for me, but having said that, still notably better than XII and better received critically.

And I do apologize for so remorselessly derailing the thread.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#42 Sep 19 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Default
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I still think that your claims about lesser 'quality' has more to do with the fact that you didn't like the changes rather than that the quality was actually worse.

You just don't get 9 out of 10 from 90% of reviewers if the quality was 'bad'. Sure, if you don't like how the game plays the review will be less than that, but it doesn't have anything to do with the quality of said game.

FFVIII was actually worse received by critics than XII was. This is based on an average too, so it's pretty accurate. But of course it's 'just a review' and your opinion has more weight than that of 72 different reviews from different sources.

It's quite funny that most of the criticizing that XII received had more to do with the fact that people didn't like the new features, not that the said features had bad quality too. Your claim that the quality was worse is quite unique in itself (maybe because it has no basis? Could be.)

Edited, Sep 19th 2009 7:33pm by Hyanmen
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#43 Sep 19 2009 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
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You just don't get 9 out of 10 from 90% of reviewers


Where the **** are you getting those figures from? All these figures, actually.

Edit: Oh wait, I know. GameRankings? Please don't make me laugh.

Edited, Sep 19th 2009 12:41pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#44 Sep 19 2009 at 11:48 AM Rating: Default
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Hey, at least my claims aren't in conflict with said reviews.

So, you're implying that they're wrong, and you're right? Do explain why.
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#45 Sep 19 2009 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Turin, Eater of Souls wrote:
"Stuff" + I probably won't bother with XIII at all.


Yes you will.
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#46 Sep 19 2009 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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shaani wrote:
Turin, Eater of Souls wrote:
"Stuff" + I probably won't bother with XIII at all.


Yes you will.


No, I won't. Unlike you a lot of the people around here, I don't run out and immediately buy a game because of the name. SE has done a lot of things over the last few years that have made question their ability to deliver a game that I would enjoy, and I'm just not going to give them anymore of money.
#47 Sep 19 2009 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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So, you're implying that they're wrong, and you're right? Do explain why.


No, I'm implying that GameRankings is a silly standard for weighing critical reviews. Wait, I'm not implying it. I'm saying it outright.

GameRankings is just a site that tries to cherry pick reviews from other sites and sum them up. They have a somewhat lax critical process for choosing what reviews to consider, but I guess at least they have one. The problem has already been highlighted pretty well, I think. You don't take reviews from review sites at face value. There are a number of reasons why, including reviewer bias, commercial bias, and the fact that a lot of reviewers write their reviews without even having played the entire game (initial impressions) to name a few. But the point being, commercially published reviews aren't a very good measure of critical reception whether you look at one of them or 100 of them.

The above is particularly true when you can look at reviews from actual players in much greater numbers. GameFAQs hosts the 9.0 rating from 73 reviewers that you're citing. It also has a cumulative review of 7.4 from 173 players who wrote their own reviews, and an 8.2 rating from 3606 reviewers. Further, if you're a loser who has little better to do than lurk around message boards like myself, you don't even need to see those numbers to know how the game is received because you pick up on it from the gamers.

But lo and behold, if you look at those ratings, then you'll see that of all the Final Fantasy titles released in the U.S. respective to their Japanese release with exception to the original, Final Fantasy XII scores lower than every other game on BOTH of those ratings. I didn't bother to check for the original II, III, and V (which were significantly delayed in their US releases), but I think I've made my case that critically speaking, XII has been the worst received US subsequent release of a Final Fantasy title since ever.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#48 Sep 20 2009 at 1:12 AM Rating: Decent
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But lo and behold, if you look at those ratings, then you'll see that of all the Final Fantasy titles released in the U.S. respective to their Japanese release with exception to the original, Final Fantasy XII scores lower than every other game on BOTH of those ratings. I didn't bother to check for the original II, III, and V (which were significantly delayed in their US releases), but I think I've made my case that critically speaking, XII has been the worst received US subsequent release of a Final Fantasy title since ever.


I see. How many of those reviewers are the ones afraid of the change though? That is a huge bias messing up the average. As well as the reviewers that give 1/10 out of rage because they got killed by some boss twice in a row and quit.

While commercial published reviews have the problems you mentioned, user reviews suffer generally from the same problems. Basically not all of the reviewers are intelligent enough to write an unbiased review. This is especially the case with XII, since it took the changes further than many oldschool players would have liked. The story was also created for smaller audience than before (how many fans like politics instead of a love story?) but who can blame them for creating a new kind of story for once after 11 love stories in a row?
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#49 Sep 20 2009 at 2:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
How many of those reviewers are the ones afraid of the change though?
You know, you keep going on about that. Let's explore that premise, shall we? My mistake on the License board name, and I apologize for that, but the point remains: YOU HAD TO EXP TO LEARN TO WEAR A HAT. It was also just a slightly altered Sphere Grid from 10, so that can't be really considered new, and the change to it was decidedly bad. Gambit system: Auto controls for the party is not a bad thing, but again, you have to go further and further into the game, and at times find them in chests, before you can even take advantage of them fully. This kind of thing should be all or nothing. I'm not even going to include the part where you either had to get a guide to do it correctly right off the bat, or spend a lot of time tweaking it on your own because one little error could wipe you out. Personally, I'd much rather micromanage my parties to do exactly what I want, exactly when I want them. Notorious Monsters: Weren't new, since it was in XI. Most people didn't like it in 11 for a reason; Annoyingly time consuming with no real additional effect to the game itself. New story type? Politics and backstabbing was done in the original Tactics. And it had more characterization to boot. Here, we could say that in Tactics you had to exp to learn how to wear a hat, too. However, that was just so you could wear those hats on different jobs, not initially. Then again, that also goes to show it wasn't really new, either. Just worse off. The races, nor the lands, were new either. All FFT fodder in one way or another.

I agree with you when you said that 12 deserves the Final Fantasy title just as much as any other game in the franchise; I just don't agree that is such a good thing for the franchise itself. It isn't that people didn't like it for the "new" things it tried; It just that those new things weren't that good, and it was within a mediocre storyline with less than mediocre characters and a lot of uncreative elements.
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#50 Sep 20 2009 at 3:00 AM Rating: Decent
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You know, you keep going on about that. Let's explore that premise, shall we? My mistake on the License board name, and I apologize for that, but the point remains: YOU HAD TO EXP TO LEARN TO WEAR A HAT


How does that differ from any other Final Fantasies? You did have to exp to get to wear hats in those games too, as far as I remember.

Quote:
New story type? Politics and backstabbing was done in the original Tactics.


It is a new story type for the masses. Just like the races and the lands were. Too bad for the 5% that had played FFT or Vagrant story, but they were ultimately in the minority.

Quote:
I agree with you when you said that 12 deserves the Final Fantasy title just as much as any other game in the franchise; I just don't agree that is such a good thing for the franchise itself. It isn't that people didn't like it for the "new" things it tried; It just that those new things weren't that good, and it was within a mediocre storyline with less than mediocre characters and a lot of uncreative elements.


Personally I liked the new combat much more than on the previous games. It was very archaic system only present because of the console limitations (which wasn't an issue anymore in the PS2 era). I think that change was for the better of the franchise, and while some changes might not have been as positive I think that XII did change the most important feature for the better (or should I say FFXI did, but XII brought that change for the masses in an offline RPG form? Whichever fits best..)



Edited, Sep 20th 2009 11:02am by Hyanmen
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#51 Sep 20 2009 at 3:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Well I'm sure that yes, if you take all of the people who really disliked XII (and there were A LOT) and discount their votes, you will find the rating goes up substantially. But then, doesn't that same standard apply to every other game? Including VIII, which a lot of people didn't like the changes to. So why is it still rated worse than the other FF games? Because of the changes? But not every game with major changes took a ratings hit.

And believe me, for every RAGE 1/10, there are five FANBOY 10/10.

The idea that a hundred reviews from maybe a pool of a thousand artificial players has even the slightest ecological validity compared to hundreds or thousands of ratings from actual players out of hundreds of thousands to millions of players is just laughable. This is not even up for debate as far as I'm concerned.

Actually if you'll look at most series, you'll find that whether or not there were big changes doesn't automatically result in worse ratings. Believe it or not, people actually don't like playing the same game over and over as a rule, and sequels without any substantial changes tend to garner little favor.

Point being, change as a whole is not automatically seen as bad, nor is it automatically seen as good. You'll have people on the fringes who go either way, but most people weigh change on the merits of the changes. And a lot of people disliked the changes to FFXII simply because they were bad changes.

Now, I get it, that in your opinion, they weren't bad changes. That's an opinion. But you're not going to change the minds of people who have already played it for themselves. They have their own opinion, and it tends to be less than yours. And that general opinion is what we call critical reception. And all I'm saying is:

In my opinion, FFXII was a mediocre game. It was also not as well-received as other FF titles.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
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