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#52 Sep 20 2009 at 4:08 AM Rating: Decent
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But not every game with major changes took a ratings hit.


For example...? (take into consideration that changing the franchise after 20 years of little to no change is a bit different than a sequel of a two year old game doing things differently. The fans have rooted for the basic things you'd find in every FF, and once those things change fans get upset).

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And believe me, for every RAGE 1/10, there are five FANBOY 10/10.


And you believe me, it's the opposite.

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Actually if you'll look at most series, you'll find that whether or not there were big changes doesn't automatically result in worse ratings. Believe it or not, people actually don't like playing the same game over and over as a rule, and sequels without any substantial changes tend to garner little favor.


You sure about that? EA sells millions of games by releasing a sequel year after another with little to no changes. I'd say that if you're smart enough, you'd welcome change with open arms.

But most people aren't like that, as sad as it is. I don't think majority of people are smart enough to weigh change on the merits of the change. What do people find bad about XII's battle system? The fact that it's not the same system used in I-X. That's enough for those people to dislike it.

But yeah, we seem to disagree about why it was not as well-received as other titles. You think people are intelligent enough to not be afraid of change, I don't. Hard to find an answer to that.
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#53 Sep 20 2009 at 4:22 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
How does that differ from any other Final Fantasies? You did have to exp to get to wear hats in those games too, as far as I remember.
Then you have horrible memory.
     Game                  Gear Level Requirements 
----------------------------------------------------- 
Final Fantasy I                       X 
Final Fantasy II                      X 
Final Fantasy III                     X 
Final Fantasy IV                      X 
Final Fantasy V                       X 
Final Fantasy VI                      X 
Final Fantasy VII                     X 
Final Fantasy VIII                    X 
Final Fantasy IX                      X 
Final Fantasy X                       X 
Final Fantasy XI                      O 
Final Fantasy XII                     O
Now, I even looked through item lists on some FAQs to make sure, and only two of the numbered games have level requirements to equip anything. In other words, you can equip the best gear as a level one character. Not only that, but you seemed to have missed my point. It wasn't that you had to level to wear a specific piece of equipment: You had to level and buy the rights to wear any equipment of that type at all. I can do an analysis of the three Tactics games as well, but all that would show is that your main jobs could still equip the gear in question, and the extra exp was used to unlock it for other jobs; They still weren't locked off to you completely like in 12.
Hyanmen wrote:
It is a new story type for the masses. Just like the races and the lands were. Too bad for the 5% that had played FFT or Vagrant story, but they were ultimately in the minority.
You're really going to try to say only 5% of people played Final Fantasy Tactics and Vagrant Story? Really? That's funny, because Vagrant Story was ranked quite high on that Gamerankings site you were using previously in this thread (15th for Playstation, 107th for Overall.),and I highly doubt that of everyone that knows the Final Fantasy Franchise, that only 5% of those people played Final Fantasy Tactics. Yeah, that seems a bit unlikely.

****, let's be honest: There are political elements in most Final Fantasy games. The Empire in 6 that the Returners are battling, Shinra in 7, and the three lands of 11. I wouldn't be surprised if people didn't notice those, though. A lot of people don't actually remember because those elements aren't the focus by the end of the game.

And finally:
Hyanmen wrote:
Personally I liked the new combat much more than on the previous games.
What exactly did you like? You say this, several times, but never what about it you like. Was it because you could move around during combat? I hope there is more to it than that, because to me it looked like the same turn based, menu driven combat system as all the other ones. Maybe I missed something.
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#54 Sep 20 2009 at 4:46 AM Rating: Default
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****, let's be honest: There are political elements in most Final Fantasy games. The Empire in 6 that the Returners are battling, Shinra in 7, and the three lands of 11. I wouldn't be surprised if people didn't notice those, though. A lot of people don't actually remember because those elements aren't the focus by the end of the game.


Yes, those elements aren't the focus. You could blame the storyline of those games for not making the politics more important to the story like you blame XII for not making the characters not so important to it. Just like 6 7 and 11 have political elements, 12 also has stories for characters (which aren't the focus by the end of the game).

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What exactly did you like? You say this, several times, but never what about it you like. Was it because you could move around during combat? I hope there is more to it than that, because to me it looked like the same turn based, menu driven combat system as all the other ones. Maybe I missed something.


You could see the monsters on the screen. No more did I have to deal with random battles every time I visited an area, or the 10second loading screen before and after every single fight. What could you possibly not like about that?

The combat was also smoother and not so... rigid. You could also do things like kiting that normally you couldn't have done. The fact it worked in real-time (if you wanted) also gets a plus from me. The fights were much more intensive that way.

And yeah, it seems my memory is 'horrible'. I would call the fact that you had to exp to wear hats nitpicking but I guess it means much to you so I won't. I did like sphere grid more in X too, but when comparing the progression of FF1 to 9 I think the one in XII trumps those 10-0. They're way too archaic and old.

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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#55 Sep 20 2009 at 5:02 AM Rating: Good
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You sure about that? EA sells millions of games by releasing a sequel year after another with little to no changes. I'd say that if you're smart enough, you'd welcome change with open arms.


You're comparing entirely different genres and demographics. Anything that EA puts out can hardly even be considered a video game.

I mean, unless you think EA would be smart to make major changes to the game of football. That's what football fans want! Something called football, but very different!

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For example...? (take into consideration that changing the franchise after 20 years of little to no change is a bit different than a sequel of a two year old game doing things differently. The fans have rooted for the basic things you'd find in every FF, and once those things change fans get upset).


Changing the franchise isn't good when you throw away the successful elements and replace them with unsuccessful ones. So if you're wanting me to show you another game that did that, you got me, I can't. But don't downplay the changes that occurred from title to title. They all contained significant changes/innovations, and not always even for the better.

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What do people find bad about XII's battle system?


Glad you asked, though really, if you just read some of the reviews and message boards, you can see pretty easily why people gave the game bad to mediocre reviews beyond just RAGE.

The character units are generic (except apparently Fran and Balthier actually have penalties with their respective default weapons, wtf).
The game is too dungeon-crawlerish and has too much boring travel.
The same strategy is ideal in 90% of battles (Haste, Berserk, etc.).
While the idea of customizable AI is not bad, the gambit system was poorly implemented.
Most of the abilities that might have actually had some strategic merit are throwaways you'll never use beyond the early game.
The Charge ability which allows you to recover MP quickly (and avoid downtime) is basically an annoying gambling minigame.
Quickenings make the game easy and cheap (many players refused to even use them).
And of course there was the ridiculous "have to learn to equip armor" thing.

Those are just the ones that spring to mind, and I haven't played the game recently at all.

By the way, Final Fantasy Tactics was a hugely successful game. It was incredibly well-received and sold enough units to make Playstation's Greatest Hits. It was also one of my favorite games. Vagrant Story on the other hand was an overshadowed game that was probably more deserving of a FF title than XII.

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You could see the monsters on the screen. No more did I have to deal with random battles every time I visited an area, or the 10second loading screen before and after every single fight. What could you possibly not like about that?


At the expense of making the game dungeon crawler-ish, offline MMO-ish, etc. And god the early areas are awful for that, too. Square made another game that you might be aware of... Chrono Trigger? Widely considered the best RPG ever made? Somehow they managed to get rid of random battles without doing that back in the days of the SNES. I'm not exactly prepared to give them kudos for the sloppy fix in XII, though it really doesn't help that it's so much like XI that it barely feels like a different game in this respect.

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The combat was also smoother and not so... rigid. You could also do things like kiting that normally you couldn't have done. The fact it worked in real-time (if you wanted) also gets a plus from me. The fights were much more intensive that way.


They were certainly much more like XI in this way, which is renowned for its fantastic, fast-paced and engaging combat. All of the falling-asleepness of FFXI with none of the multiplayer elements. Yay.

XII made several bad changes. They weren't all original changes, either. Just bad.

Edited, Sep 20th 2009 6:13am by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#56 Sep 20 2009 at 6:10 AM Rating: Decent
Prettier Than You
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12,966 posts
**** you guys, I still had fun with the game.
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#57 Sep 20 2009 at 6:29 AM Rating: Good
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Oh, and I thought I'd do a little more poking around, so I actually looked further at the reviews that contributed to that 7.4 rating, and that's the lower of the ratings. So let's see.

Out of 173 ratings, there were thirty three 10/10's. 33. Roughly the same number of 8's and 9's. Now, how many RAGE 1/10s?
Not. One.
There were three 2/10's, and ample 3's and 4's, but I don't think your assessment holds up.

But what about change? Well, this is just a quick peek at all those who mentioned change in the tagline.

Far too many changes!!! 7/10
The more they change, the more they stay the same. 9/10
A lot has been changed (for better and for worse) 7/10
The king of RPGs is back and proves how good change can really be 10/10

Not a lot of raging over change there.

Now, let's look at some of the content of the reviews by comparing the taglines to the actual rating. These are all quotes, btw, and I'm intentionally picking from among favorable ones that also note weaknesses.

7/10
A good game, but would've worked better outside the FF franchise.
Mediocre offline version of FF11
Final Fantasy XII: A Brilliant Attempt That Falls Short
This time, "final" has a meaning.
Innovation does not necessarily equal fun
Not quite a Final Fantasy, but good nonetheless
Half and half: I am disappointed to say the least
Good only if Final Fantasy 7 was your first taste of Final Fantasy.

8/10
Final Fantasy XII: The Offline MMORPG -- Not Perfect but Not Flawed
Fantastic but flawed
A promising "new beginning" for the Final Fantasy franchise that gradually loses its charm
It has great qualities, but it’s just when you compare it to the storytelling of previous games, it’s just disappointing.

9/10
The gameplay is the best of any Final Fantasy, too bad the story couldn't follow suit

Now given that I'd probably give the game a 7ish myself, I don't fully agree with the comments from people who gave higher ratings. But you can see that even among people who gave the game 8's and 9's there were those who recognized that it played like an offline MMO and had a lackluster story. And those people who gave 3-6's -really- put the game under the microscope.

So that was fun and all, but I think that if this doesn't convince you, nothing will. If you're still not convinced, I invite you to read the reviews for yourself, and you'll find that people are generally pretty reasoned in their opinions of the game. Most people aren't going to write a review if they don't have at least some level of analysis to offer (and I don't know if GameFAQs will even publish obviously worthless reviews).
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#58 Sep 20 2009 at 6:39 AM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
Now, how many RAGE 1/10s?
Not. One.
There were three 2/10's, and ample 3's and 4's, but I don't think your assessment holds up.


Yeah, those 3's and 4's are what I mean. The 1/10 was just an example to show. Of course most of the "RAGE 1/10's" that I was talking about tend to be at the ~4/10 range.

Of course you can't find any raging over change from the reviews that gave overall good ratings. Take some examples of the 3/10 crowd and tell me there wasn't any raging if you can.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#59 Sep 20 2009 at 6:56 AM Rating: Decent
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thread long gone and derailed lol but really the only thing that matters is how much u like the game.. its like people that are willing to pay 1 million dollars for a picaso painting some c it as art others c it as paint on a canvas point being that its all in the eye of the beholder or something like that.. arguing about who gave what scores is ridiculous i dont post often here i lurk a lot but i had to jump in on this one personally i didnt like 12 for a lot of the reasons kachi and others gave but as u guys already pointed out plenty of people enjoyed the game, so how about we call it a day and talk some ff 14 lol
#60 Sep 20 2009 at 7:09 AM Rating: Default
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FF8-12 sucked...9 was decent, but that's probably just because it's the only one of those that Hironobu Sakaguchi wrote. The FF series needs him back bad, real bad
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#61 Sep 20 2009 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, those 3's and 4's are what I mean. The 1/10 was just an example to show. Of course most of the "RAGE 1/10's" that I was talking about tend to be at the ~4/10 range.

Of course you can't find any raging over change from the reviews that gave overall good ratings. Take some examples of the 3/10 crowd and tell me there wasn't any raging if you can.


No, I wasn't being selective when I looked for taglines that mentioned changes. That's all of them. There wasn't a single bad review that mentioned change in the headline. And I looked through 10 or so of the bad ones and saw very little or no mention of change being the complaint. Often the comments summarized the game as graphically beautiful with mediocre gameplay like that of an offline MMO, but no soul and a pitiful story.

You're only looking at about ten 3's and ten 4's, too. Generally these people either hated the story or hated the gameplay, which seems like a fair enough reason to give a 3 or 4 considering those are the two primary elements to an RPG. There are large groups of people in both camps, even among those who rated the game favorably, who
really disliked the story or the gameplay.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#62 Nov 06 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Supposed rumor on beta
http://www.eorzeapedia.com/2009/11/06/rumor-beta-codes-for-ffxiv-oh-yeah-and-some-chocobo-images/#more-1607
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