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Self skillchaining?Follow

#1 Sep 18 2009 at 3:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I know it is early to speculate but with seeing the videos and reading all available info I had an interesting idea tonight.

With the new battle system it looks like duel-weilding will be pretty common by some melle. And it "looks" as if each hand has a TP bar so to speak. If I am a melle with axe in one hand and sword in the other, in theory I could self skillchain. And if the recent interview assumptions are correct about "learning" abilities from other "jobs" and that knowledge being brought over to different fighting styles. Example: I am a mage class and learn healing/damage spells, some of those might be brought over to a melle class but with weaker results.

So, if I can self skillchain AND I have some learned damage spells from my mage "job" then there is a possbility of a self skillchain AND a MB. Might bring a whole new spin on the soloing aspect they seem to be employing on this release.
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#2 Sep 18 2009 at 3:46 AM Rating: Default
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God, Skillchains were a bad idea in XI, so I hope they don't even bother with it in XIV.
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#3 Sep 18 2009 at 4:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timed team attacks aren't a bad idea. They were just horribly implemented.

I think it'd be a good addition, but better not be nearly the pinnacle of complexity that the battle system offers.
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#4 Sep 18 2009 at 6:56 AM Rating: Good
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Just give us Limit breaks and call it a day. I agree with the team based attacks being a good idea, but if this is to be more casual, then I think just a limit break would be fine.
#5 Sep 18 2009 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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I loved the skillchain stuff, it was one of my favorite parts of combat, prayin' that we get some kind of hint soon that it'll be coming back in some form. The combat system they talk about reminds me of something similar to Xenogears though, inputting each command for different results and combos. If it's like this, the solo skillchain probably just ends up being built into the combo. Dunno about the skillchain, but chaning together full combo's as a party somehow sounds like it could be a blast.

One of the things I hated so much about WoW is that there was no team aspect, everybody was in a group, but they were all pretty much doing their own thing, and you could do entire dungeons without any communication other than "Who's tank? Who's healing?" I always felt that skillchains brought the community a bit closer (assuming you had a good partner for it), working out timing between melee and casters. In places like Kuftal with a good Distortion skillchain and your BLM having just learned Freeze, it made for some of the fastest XP earned up to that point, and was a total blast doing it.

Edited, Sep 18th 2009 12:47pm by Tenthul
#6 Sep 18 2009 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe, i wouldn't have taken you for someone who hated SCing?

Some of the best times I have had with FFXI were partying with using the "old school" method.

When we finally got to sky and were working so hard to SC the gods to make decent time. Naturally long before we got good enough to low man or zerg them.

But I do kind of agree, working as a team to get the strat going was frustrating but also helped set FFXI apart from most of the other games out there that I had played.

But with a drastic lifestyle change I do appreciate the solo aspect now. But will paryt whenever I can.
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#7 Sep 19 2009 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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The problem with SCs was that there were just so many stupid design decisions.

1) Arbitrary window of time you have to guess when to follow the prior WS, with no cues or displays.
2) Ridiculously confuzzled system with no common sense or easy to memorize method for knowing which WS + WS= SC.
3) Added only damage, no special effects, limiting the versatility and strategy of the system.
4) Because some WSs are useless (which was another huge flaw), many of your SC weren't worth doing at all. Especially true of course by the time they were never worth doing.

And there were probably other things that escape me. But the point being that they could have been done so much better.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#8 Sep 19 2009 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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4) Because some WSs are useless (which was another huge flaw), many of your SC weren't worth doing at all. Especially true of course by the time they were never worth doing.


This was actually different pre-US release.. but as with many other features in XI SE couldn't predict how this one would develop either. Can't blame them though, seeing to the future isn't as simple as one would think.

However, now they'll have easier time looking into that crystal ball, due to the experience they got from before.. hopefully it'll help.

Edited, Sep 19th 2009 5:07pm by Hyanmen
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#9 Sep 19 2009 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Well yeah, but did they actually change anything besides multi-hit TP return? I don't recall if there were other changes to WS properties.

Because there are some WSs that would be especially useless. They're neither multihit or powerful.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#10 Sep 19 2009 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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Elemental weaponskills were actually quite powerful at first. Too powerful actually, since SE had to nerf them =P.
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#11 Sep 19 2009 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh, I'm surprised I didn't know that.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#12 Sep 19 2009 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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God, Skillchains were a bad idea in XI, so I hope they don't even bother with it in XIV.


First time in reading alla FF forums when it was obvious lolgaxe was blatantly wrong.

They were a great idea, just needed a little more work. God forbid a little teamwork screws up your auto attack and WS spam.

I was one of those guys hoping they would actually release a 'comet' or 'meteo' spell that required multiple casters to time their casts together to make it happen.


Quote:
2) Ridiculously confuzzled system with no common sense or easy to memorize method for knowing which WS + WS= SC.
3) Added only damage, no special effects, limiting the versatility and strategy of the system.
4) Because some WSs are useless (which was another huge flaw), many of your SC weren't worth doing at all. Especially true of course by the time they were never worth doing.


The system should have been simpler, but it wasn't that hard. Add Wind and Ice: get distortion. (at least that is how it should have worked).

The timing was fine for me, it was a little bonus that skilled players could pull off. You didn't HAVE to pull them off to win, but it was very satisfying to get a SC and a MB. I don't want to see a timer in the corner of my screen, but I certainly wouldn't mind it if it was there too. If having a timer makes people happy, I don't care if it is there.

As for adding only damage, **** STRAIGHT, CHANGE THAT $H1T! It would be great to see skillchains apply different sorts of effects, and it would encourage groups to switch up what skillchains they were attempting, especially on boss fights.

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Because some WSs are useless (which was another huge flaw), many of your SC weren't worth doing at all. Especially true of course by the time they were never worth doing


Yeah that was another huge flaw. It would be nice if this time around every TP attack actually had a purpose, too many crap WS in FFXI really added to the whole 'cookie cutter' feel of the game. And yeah, by the time ToAU came out, skillchains were completely useless, just something that might randomly happen during the WS spam. It sucked compared to the old days when communication and timing really mattered.

It just made the game more interesting to have skillchains and magic bursts. It required more skill, and it was completely optional. I have no idea why anyone would want this aspect removed from a future online FF. If you don't like to SC/MB, then you don't have to.

Edited, Sep 20th 2009 3:21am by Shazaamemt
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#13 Sep 20 2009 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Shazaamemt wrote:
It required more skill, and it was completely optional
(last time this topic came up)
lolgaxe wrote:
It didn't require "more skill" to skillchain or magic burst, unless you want to boast counting to three is a skill. "Determining which skillchain to use" is a non-issue, because there was only two results. Distortion and Light. If you couldn't do those, you were considered useless and exiled. Speaking of grouping, if your party didn't have a Ninja or Paladin (1 slot), a Bard or Red Mage (1 slot), a White Mage or Summoner (1 slot), and a Black Mage (1 slot), your party didn't go anywhere. Keeping count? In a game that is MELEE HEAVY, parties required 4 of the slots to not include them, and when it did include them the two had to be compatible. The 5k/hr vs. 20k/hr doesn't even take into account that back then it took MUCH longer just to get parties started, and getting to camps that could accommodate those sorts of parties at all. Add the ten minutes or so once you get to the camp where you discuss which weaponskills to use for which skillchains. As one of those two melees, there was never anything more frustrating than being in a party where the other damage dealer was a full AF Dark Knight with level 36 DEX rings and no other discernible accuracy gear at a time when accuracy food didn't exist. Then you have the mages who ended up casting maybe two spells a fight and being AFK the rest of the time. Yes, you can make the argument that "not all mages were like that," but the same argument can be made about "melees no longer know how to skillchain."

I don't know how any of that can translate to "more skill" or "more fun," unless you were one of the mages who only cast two spells a fight and afked the rest of the time. There was more job seclusion, more wasted time, more frustration, more gimps, and even after all that you still ended up with little to show for it. A part of being a skillful individual is knowing how to get the most out of the least amount of work/use of resources. Saying that it was "more skillful" in the first two years of the game than now is a sign that you're a skill-less individual.
Seriously, it wasn't more skill, you're just trumping it up because you thought it was. Memories do that, they get better the further away you get from them.

To those paragraphs, I'll debunk the "teamwork" theory by mentioning that badly geared melees were highly detrimental to the skillchain process, and if they didn't want to gear better that means they weren't being a team player.

The - only - place skillchains were worth doing were on giant alliance style boss fights, and those were so few and far apart in XI that having the skillchain system was more just a near useless gimmick than a feasibly useful series of actions.

Edited, Sep 20th 2009 4:45am by lolgaxe
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#14 Sep 20 2009 at 4:03 AM Rating: Default
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No, it really didn't take any considerable measure of skill, but it was one more thing to keep an eye on. To the extent that it made combat more involved and complicated, even if just a little, it made the game more skillful.

Kind of a rubbing your tummy and patting your head kind of thing. Then hop on one foot, and sing Mary had a little lamb, and winking. Throw enough simple things together, and it necessarily makes things more difficult. By the way, if anyone actually did that... what are you, retarded?

It's why there are so many accidents while people text and drive! Yep, threw in a friendly little PSA there.

Uh, anyway, it would have been a better test of skill had the system been more fleshed out. My guess is most people keep 2-3 WSs on a given macro set tops. Imagine if you had to give serious consideration to having all of your WS handy? If SCs had other effects, you might want to change the SC you're doing on the fly. If the delay was longer, it would be harder to accurately count it and be mindful of it, particularly without some kind of cue/timer.

There are several ways they could have made the system more strategic and skill-oriented, but yes, it was just a small thing on the pile. Unfortunately for a game that doesn't offer much, you really need all the help you can get.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 Sep 30 2009 at 4:49 PM Rating: Default
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I liked the SC system even if it didn't always produce "Uber" damage. Being a melee DD I didn't really have much else to do during a fight, in a smooth running party anyways. If all I had to do was hit auto-attack and then mash a WS macro every 15 seconds it would have been pretty boring. Keeping track of what WS to use in conjunction with what WS at what time against what type of mob was fun for me.

I hope they keep the player involved in combat beyond just occasionally pressing the same button over and over again as a meter fills up. Being able to dual two differant types of weapons and SC solo would be pretty sweet too. Although I don't know how we're going to build TP, or whatever point system is going to be used to do WS, seeing as there's no auto-attack. I'm very interested to learn about this new system.


and yes I'm making fun of anyone that uses the word uber, or pwnz for that matter

Edited, Sep 30th 2009 8:50pm by Nalamwen
#16 Oct 01 2009 at 1:21 AM Rating: Decent
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It may not have taken much more skill, but you could almost surely tell a bad party from a good party by simply going over a few things. Good parties (at the time) communicated the SC's and MB's. Bad parties just went in swinging.
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#17 Oct 01 2009 at 2:25 AM Rating: Default
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In the TGS interview iirc they mentioned SCs making a comeback, and seems like solo SCing will take on a bigger role. I like SCs. Doesn't really take skill to use, but I thought it was fun, and teamwork elements are always welcome. Like someone said realier though, SCs are cool, but hopefully not the pinnacle of FFXIV battles.
#18 Oct 01 2009 at 5:07 AM Rating: Good
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I'd like to see abilities with a cast/charge time. After that is used if another player activated a chaining ability, during the casting charge process, you would enter a Chronotrigger-esque multi-player attack. That of course would equal larger damage and perhaps a status affect. Of course I'd be happy with the old system too, but can we at least get see the time window graphically please. Give us a bar, a timer, a graphical effect, something!
#19 Oct 01 2009 at 7:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Skillchains were one of the best things that I enjoyed about party play in XI and honestly I would think of the ffxi battle system as being poor for not having it (pre-merits and multihit spam of course). Especially when you hit that perfect spot where a light/darkness SC would drain a good chunk of your targets HP. It was exciting to see a a 1K WS followed by a 1K SC and another 1K+ MB. I'll admit to jumping out of my chair a couple times when I got to close them.

It's not something that's needed or should be required, but I'm very happy they are making a comeback. So much so, that I would be terribly disappointed if they didn't.
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3) Added only damage, no special effects, limiting the versatility and strategy of the system.

This would be a great addition as it would encourage you to SC even if you were solo. Jobs like SAM were meant to SC in this manner so I see something like this being a great addition for everyone. If I could change the existing SC's in FFXI, I would like to see this and possibly allow WS to be constantly chained until a LVL3 SC was hit. I feel that would add a whole new dimension (more complex if you were aiming for maximum damage, yes) to the game.
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#20 Oct 01 2009 at 7:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I think they should add status effects that can't be used any other way. So to get this specific debuff or w/e it is, you would have to SC.
#21 Oct 01 2009 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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Just going to weigh in with my opinions.

I loved the weaponskill system itself in FFXI. There really isn't anything too much like in other games, and I always felt it gave XI a much needed uniqueness to it. If not only just for the melee, and something I REALLY pray they do in XIV is some sort of "magic" weaponskill to allow magic casters to have an equivalent system.

As an NA launch player, skill chains were EVERYTHING in parties back in the early game. You almost never saw a party without a BLM to MB your skill chains, and weaponburns/TPburn parties didn't exist. You skill chained, end of story. Tanks helped skillchain if they could, at all times by opening them, until paladins got Spirits within. If you were a melee, you skillchained.

But the skill chain itself was a by product of the real goal: The magic burst.

Fact of the matter was that as people started looking more into FFXI, the general consensus became that skillchaining and magic bursting... really weren't that necessary.

Now, IMO, the biggest reason for this at time was simple: Jobs TP gained at too various of a speed to justify one "waiting" on the other. Before the TP buff/nerf to two handed weapons, dual wielders simply out TPed (and arguably outdamaged) all two handers with the exception of samurais. The skill chain damage wasn't enough to justify holding off, and the magic burst damage wasn't enough to justify not just chain casting spells (or casting as needed... whatever you would like to say.)

Simply put: Skill chains WEREN'T RELEVANT ENOUGH. You can argue, and rightfully so, that this changed when you could finally do the level 3 skill chains, but most monsters were simply dead at that point unless you were fighting a IT++ mobs (which... ew), or you did the SC right off the bat and risked your tank not being able to reestablish hate in most parties. The reasons why BLUs made the SC relevant again in anyway, was because they didn't have wait for anyone else, so why not SC and MB to max out your damage?

Now... I never played BLU up enough to self SC. Not even close. But here's the deal: Unless they make Skill chain damage worthwhile, in many ways... this is a non-issue. Selfskill chaining is nice, and we know they're "looking into it" for the game, but unless the party skill chains work well, I don't think this would be more than a nice added perk to people that can do it. Skillchains have to be relevant again, and I would be happy.

sorry for any grammar issues: at work
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