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Will we see stats like accuracy?Follow

#1 Sep 18 2009 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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If there was one thing I never understood about FFXI, it was why things were kept a secret. Primary Stats, Attack, and Defence were the only things we were allowed to see values for.

Why?

When I was serious about endgame I looked up some the equations people had come up with and tested. Should an MMO really require multiple-variable equations (that were not readily provided) to be used in order to determine stats like Magic Attack or Ranged Accuracy?

If there is one thing I would like to see, it would be a much more detailed character sheet with values for things like accuracy/magic accuracy/magic defense ect. I don't think seeing them hurts a player's ability to enjoy a game.

Edit: To clarify, I dont mean the actual equations, just the values of things that shouldnt be secret (Accuracy).

Edited, Sep 18th 2009 3:44pm by ELodius

Edited, Sep 18th 2009 3:52pm by ELodius
#2 Sep 18 2009 at 11:26 AM Rating: Default
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It's okay to show all the stats your character can have such as ranged attack, magic critical hit rate, evasion and so on. But the devs shouldn't show us what the stats do. Let the players figure the rest out themselves.
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#3 Sep 18 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Beyond the normal mysticism SE usually shows, I think this decision had a lot to do with trying to strong arm people away from min/maxing. They knew it wouldn't work for everyone, there will always be those hardcore mathematicians who will work it out, but it did add a hurdle if you wanted to get "the perfect setup". Personally, I applaud them the effort, although I'm not sure I would have done it the same way.

Far be it for me to say no-one should be able to min/max, after all, it's what quite a few people play the game for. But a large amount of the elitism that is inherent in most MMOs comes from the ever deepening search for "the perfect gear". With a little bit of mysticism, it's a lot harder to look someone in the face and say "don't use that it sucks", simply because you can't know that for 100% sure. Again, I'm not really defending the choice, just explaining what I think the motivation was.

I would like to see some transparency, but only on a surface level, like Hyanmen said. Tell us what our ranged attack is. But I don't want to know what my damage will be explicitly.
#4 Sep 18 2009 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mmm, transparency is fine if they're going to make a concerted effort to prevent optimization. But that should be a priority with or without transparency-- taking away the transparency is just a lazy fix to the real problem of an unbalanced customization system.
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#5 Sep 18 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
It's okay to show all the stats your character can have such as ranged attack, magic critical hit rate, evasion and so on. But the devs shouldn't show us what the stats do. Let the players figure the rest out themselves.


This is so rediculously arbitrary. What PURPOSE would that serve except headaches for everyone waiting for the people to do the tests? How about the newbs or younger people who dont know they need to look at a forum or have no idea how to gear for ANYTHING.

Old ideas like hiding crucial information from players like stat values and what said stats do is an out-dated arbitrary system. If you want to add hurdles to the gameplay make them skill intensive or puzzle-ish. Not random guessing games involving thousands of tests so you can figure out what stat xyz does please.
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#6 Sep 18 2009 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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This is so rediculously arbitrary. What PURPOSE would that serve except headaches for everyone waiting for the people to do the tests? How about the newbs or younger people who dont know they need to look at a forum or have no idea how to gear for ANYTHING.


Let's see.. when the stat says 'Ranged attack +5', a normal human being could think 1+1 and realize that this stat might boost the damage of your ranged attacks.. or if a piece of gear has a stat 'Magic attack bonus' on it, one might think that it could possibly boost your magical attacks somehow.. But I assume that a newb or younger people know how to read, I might be wrong too.

But of course if we don't know that weapon skill damage comes from the equation

WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

that will make the game unplayable, sure.

Only people having a headache would be those that have the need to min/max everything and find the cookie-cutter setups asap instead of you know, enjoying the game (I got through FFXII without knowing how stat X correlated with stat Y and surprisingly didn't find it any less fun even without knowing this crucial info).

That's ridiculous claim anyway.. why would people wait for someone to do the tests? You're saying you can't win a fight if you don't know exact formula for calculating damage and resist rates? If it says Accuracy it boosts accuracy, if it says hp+ it boosts hp.. that should be enough info for everyone to beat everything the game has to offer, there's no *need* to know these things.

Edited, Sep 18th 2009 10:27pm by Hyanmen
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#7 Sep 18 2009 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Quote:
This is so rediculously arbitrary. What PURPOSE would that serve except headaches for everyone waiting for the people to do the tests? How about the newbs or younger people who dont know they need to look at a forum or have no idea how to gear for ANYTHING.


Let's see.. when the stat says 'Ranged attack +5', a normal human being could think 1+1 and realize that this stat might boost the damage of your ranged attacks.. or if a piece of gear has a stat 'Magic attack bonus' on it, one might think that it could possibly boost your magical attacks somehow.. But I assume that a newb or younger people know how to read, I might be wrong too.

But of course if we don't know that weapon skill damage comes from the equation

WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

that will make the game unplayable, sure.

Only people having a headache would be those that have the need to min/max everything and find the cookie-cutter setups asap instead of you know, enjoying the game (I got through FFXII without knowing how stat X correlated with stat Y and surprisingly didn't find it any less fun even without knowing this crucial info).

That's ridiculous claim anyway.. why would people wait for someone to do the tests? You're saying you can't win a fight if you don't know exact formula for calculating damage and resist rates? If it says Accuracy it boosts accuracy, if it says hp+ it boosts hp.. that should be enough info for everyone to beat everything the game has to offer, there's no *need* to know these things.


My god you're right... why the **** would anyone possibly want to know this information in order to make a solid determination about the effect of stats or whether a piece of gear is worth the effort to obtain it? While they're at it, perhaps SE should just remove HP, MP, and every other stat from their games. After all there's no *need* to know those things either. All the gear from here on out can just say "+/-stuff" on it and we can leave it at that.

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#8 Sep 18 2009 at 3:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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lol @ +/- stuff

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#9 Sep 18 2009 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
It's okay to show all the stats your character can have such as ranged attack, magic critical hit rate, evasion and so on. But the devs shouldn't show us what the stats do. Let the players figure the rest out themselves.


NO THANKS. back in the early years remember how CHR made provoke stronger and how mages should also use it to lower hate? <.<

Even better back then people always thought that Ice staff was the best and only staff that should be used for nuking cause of the +elemental magic.

Away with these super secretive stats please.
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#10 Sep 18 2009 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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I once would have agreed that keeping things secretive is silly and pointless but I actually have changed my opinion on that. After playing quite a bit of WoW and seeing the opposite side of the coin, I rather missed the aura of mystique that comes from gearing properly in FFXI. When everything is 100% transparent it makes everything feel...more robotic somehow. There is one clear and proper way to gear your character because it can be shown with math; opinion and debate get thrown out the window and your character feels a bit less like your own original creation and more like a collection of numbers and statistics in humanoid form.

As for stats like accuracy....the accuracy stat in particular is one thing I could really do without, or at least make less important. It's frustrating that you have to go to such great lengths in FFXI to even hit a mob consistently, especially when they're standing right in front of you and you're carrying a 4 foot long axe. I say make accuracy quite high naturally and force us to gear up to simply do more damage with those swings instead.
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#11 Sep 18 2009 at 6:08 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanman, buddy, guy...

No one is asking for that. All it would need is some DESCIPTIONS of what skills are improved by what stats, as well as spells.

Obviously + is better then - in terms of stats. But hey, if I was a super **** newb, or came from D&D and played a paladin in FFXI I would be stacking Cha like no other for some time. Why? Because no where in the game does it explain what ANYTHING does. There is not ONE thing that is explained in the game by itself.
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#12 Sep 18 2009 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I once would have agreed that keeping things secretive is silly and pointless but I actually have changed my opinion on that. After playing quite a bit of WoW and seeing the opposite side of the coin, I rather missed the aura of mystique that comes from gearing properly in FFXI. When everything is 100% transparent it makes everything feel...more robotic somehow. There is one clear and proper way to gear your character because it can be shown with math; opinion and debate get thrown out the window and your character feels a bit less like your own original creation and more like a collection of numbers and statistics in humanoid form.



I don't think there's anything wrong with liking a little mystery in your MMO.
I just don't think attaining it in the scope of Stats is really the best way to go about it.

Don't get me wrong, I can see the argument. Because it's not normal to evaluate your fellow human being as a mess of numbers, anytime you try to boil a character down into cold hard statistics your messing with our sense of immersion. The more numbers displayed, the more immersion is lost.

But, it's a kind of 4th wall breaking we gamers can readily accept. Largely, because it would be very difficult to create an RPG without Stats. In reality, a person's progress can be measured in abstracts. In a programmed world this can only be accomplished in numbers. Hiding or showing the Stats has no bearing on this fact, it only has a bearing on whether or not these numbers are easily seen.

While hiding the numbers can facilitate immersion at the start, it's dangerous for the developer to rely on this illusion. Because even if it hopes to feign the incomprehensible abstracts of reality via obfuscation - the game-world is still Math. As the community grows, learns and experiments it will inevitably come to understand that Math and in doing so undermine the immersion. There's no reason to sacrifice either of these key aspects for the other. While community growth is pretty fixed in it's path, Immersion can be accomplished in many, many ways.


Edited, Sep 19th 2009 12:08am by Zemzelette
#13 Sep 18 2009 at 7:16 PM Rating: Good
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I wasn't a big fan of FFXI having so many secrets. It all turned out to just be fairly annoying. I can understand why they do it and I think it's a good idea but if it were done BETTER it would have been more enjoyable. I mean, you have to make it enjoyable to go looking for secrets. Only being able to get a certain item at a certain time with a certain vendor with no way of knowing unless you talk to that vendor every hour or so to find out (why one earth would you do that unless you already knew about it...at which point you don't actually need to do it since you already know) or just go online to find it isn't enjoyable.

Same goes with stats, if SE doesn't tell us we have to find out. Well, I'm not about to calculate my damage every time I get a new piece of armor or use a new food just to find out if maybe there is some hidden secret to it. It's a waste of time unless you are someone who, for some strange reason, enjoys doing things like that. Anyone who doesn't want to do it will just find out online from someone who does at which point it defeats the purpose of the whole thing.

No, don't make stupid nonsense secrets because all that does is pull people away from the game to a website just so they can figure out the stats of a stupid weapon. And what's worse you had to leave the game entirely in order to do that because SE refused to give us the common feature of minimizing the game.

/fume

Wow, I started out the post only slightly annoyed and now I'm a bit angry about the whole thing...whoever thought of this nonsense needs to be shot.
#14 Sep 18 2009 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette wrote:
I don't think there's anything wrong with liking a little mystery in your MMO.

Others have disagreed.
Zemzelette wrote:
Because it's not normal to evaluate your fellow human being as a mess of numbers, anytime you try to boil a character down into cold hard statistics your messing with our sense of immersion. The more numbers displayed, the more immersion is lost.

Not everyone plays the game the same way. Some people don't care about immersion. I also don't see how any immersion is lost. The people doing calculations are the people who don't care about immersion (or care as much); removing transparency makes the game less fun for them, not more fun. The people who do care about immersion aren't going to bother trying to maximize their character, and they are in no way having their game experienced harmed by transparency.

I want to put this this argument in perspective. You are stating that one group is harmed by providing them an option they don't care for. You favor forcing another group to not be able to take access that information.
#15 Sep 18 2009 at 7:51 PM Rating: Decent
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::cough::

Please read the rest of my post?

Granted, those were very soft acknowledgments for the sake of politeness.
But my actual argument is the complete opposite.

Edited, Sep 19th 2009 12:06am by Zemzelette
#16 Sep 18 2009 at 8:58 PM Rating: Good
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I'll add my vote to the 'please, no more arbitrary secretiveness' side.

I really don't see what not showing us r.acc/acc/r.att or food stats ever accomplished. Like people pointed out, it will get figured out eventually -- so it just seems like an artificial hurdle.

Perhaps we don't need to go as far as color coding gear according to value, but it wouldn't be so bad to just let us see the relevant stats. Atmosphere and the story do more for immersion than hiding stats.
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#17 Sep 18 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Showing stats are fine, but I know I've seen people who have wanted to like be able to check a mob and have the game tell them how often they'll hit or miss like one magic number will fulfill their needs for all time. XI complicated this far too much with level corrections, job evasion levels, traits, and player skills/DEX/traits/gear.

Probably the most it should do is translate your stuff into like 400 ACC with everything considered. Learning your enemy's evasion, and therefore you actual hit rate, should depend on either personal data comparison or items or abilities (Scan, Libra, whatever) that pull up detailed listings of mob stats, but the latter will only happen if SE doesn't really mind us knowing them.

I guess I've always looked at XI from more of a common sense perspective over maximizing. Sometimes you'll come to similar conclusions if you think on it enough, but I guess there's a point where the game starts holding your hand, too.
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#18 Sep 18 2009 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette wrote:
Please read the rest of my post?

I did. I am not debating your conclusion, but I believe one of the points you made is flawed.
#19 Sep 19 2009 at 1:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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02/26/2004
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New pieces of equipment known as "relics" have been introduced.


07/21/2009
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The wyvern damage reduction effects granted by the following items are now consistent with the value indicated in their help text:
Wyrm Finger Gauntlets / Wyrm Finger Gauntlets +1 / Wyrm Brais / Wyrm Brais +1


and nobody ever figured it out thanks to hiden stats XD
#20 Sep 19 2009 at 8:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Ahhh.
I was saying that for the sake of finding something to acknowledge the poster on in order to find a common ground I could use to lead them over to my side of the argument. It's just a nice way of setting a point up, so I'm not too concerned about defending it.

But I'll certainly take one stab at explaining.
It's probably hard to get a handle on because it's an overly obvious technicality. All I'm saying is that when we think someone is strong we say "Wow, that guy sure is a beefcake", and not "Wow, look at that massive STR Stat". It's messing with immersion about the same level tapping a keyboard or clicking a mouse is. Which is to say; not very much considering there's no way to have a game without it.
#21 Sep 19 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd be OK with them showing the stats, but I really hope they dont have equipment like "+10AGI, +10str, Accuracy rating of 52". I hate that in WoW, there are 7659827593285 stats on each **** piece of equipment. Just make Dex or Agi add to accuracy, then show the stat. I'd be 100% happy with that.
#22 Sep 20 2009 at 4:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Filian wrote:
As for stats like accuracy....the accuracy stat in particular is one thing I could really do without, or at least make less important. It's frustrating that you have to go to such great lengths in FFXI to even hit a mob consistently, especially when they're standing right in front of you and you're carrying a 4 foot long axe. I say make accuracy quite high naturally and force us to gear up to simply do more damage with those swings instead.


my views on this would be sure make the great big 2 handed weapons less accurate, but make them hurt a **** of alot, make the 1h weapons more accurate but hurt alot less.

my logic is that with the time it'd physically take you to swing that great big axe around they're more time to react or get out the way hence you miss, where as something small like a dagger, katana or a pair of knuckles you could attack much faster and give your target alot less time to see it coming / get out the way thus your less likely to miss

would like to see accuracy/evasion other stuff as a stat. but personally i hope its the balance of weapon classes that i hope they get right. eliminate this 1h/2h onry crap. if they get this balance right then ill be fairly happy
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#23 Sep 20 2009 at 6:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Second half of posts before: tl;dr

That in mind, there is ONE MMO that has brought all possible stats to the table for the purposes of combat: EVE Online.

For those of you who played it and liked it, it's perhaps the greatest game in the world. For those who couldn't understand it, the over abundance of stats probably had something to do with it.

For those who have not played it, consider this: A small ship orbiting a larger ship at 10km at 3km/s will not be hit (and likely 1- or 2- shot by the hideously large ship's guns) because of his fast movement proportional to the large ships slow guns.

These are things EVE'rs have to consider.

It has created a cess-pool of elitists, but those who thought "CHR defines 'voke" are for the most part weeded out of existence in EVE. The reason? The people who understand the game are in control. Now, I doubt there will be more of a territorial fight in FFXIV, but we will at least see more people bring the HARD FACTS to the table, instead of CHR DRIVES ENMITY.

Not that not doing it will work anyway... Anything in the world can be cracked over enough time. ****, how long did it take people to figure out VE's PH was at a certain position? And he spawned at a certain place on Wide Scan? How about that Enmity testing that was done so long ago? Just another application of common sense and extreme patience pays off.
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#24 Sep 20 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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my views on this would be sure make the great big 2 handed weapons less accurate, but make them hurt a **** of alot, make the 1h weapons more accurate but hurt alot less.

my logic is that with the time it'd physically take you to swing that great big axe around they're more time to react or get out the way hence you miss, where as something small like a dagger, katana or a pair of knuckles you could attack much faster and give your target alot less time to see it coming / get out the way thus your less likely to miss


no

game reason : the balance between 1h and 2h weapons is already done with delay and dmg, if you remove acc from 2h weapons, you gimp them.

real reason : with a 1h, shorter weapon, you have to get close to the enemy to stab it, letting it as much, or more time to evade and counter.

and you forgot that they could add twin-saber, battle staff, sword-chuck, kitten-chuck, etc... theses weapons while 2handed are quick, accurate and deadly XD
#25 Sep 21 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm somewhat against all the hidden stats because I feel like it puts unnecessary strain on people to use outside sources to improve their characters. Couple that with no real explanation of what the non-hidden stats even do, and all you do is confuse your playerbase.

Then we have to wait for years for people to do every possible test conceivable in order to figure out how this stat affects that ability. You want to talk about losing the "immersion" factor? How does hiding stats so deeply that people literally have to run hundreds of tests under every possible circumstance to figure out what stats do instead of just playing the game make it "more" immersive? Besides that, some stats were just arbitrarily thrown on pieces of AF gear, making us think that they were somehow important to the job, and it turned out that there was absolutely no use for it whatsoever.

I'd like to see stats on gear (especially job-specific) actually make sense for the job in question (No +int on War gear or CHR on seemingly everything when there was only one job - well now two - that even used it) and do away with the guesswork. Especially with comments by SE like "There's no more slots for stat increases on AF so we can't improve them". Don't put on stats that shouldn't have been there to begin with and there won't be issues next time around.


#26 Sep 22 2009 at 12:54 AM Rating: Good
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CommanderKing wrote:
Even better back then people always thought that Ice staff was the best and only staff that should be used for nuking cause of the +elemental magic.


There are still people who think Ice staff is the only staff to nuke in, that and Dark are the only 2 to HQ. Its pretty awesome.

I am for things being clear, and hopefully straightforward. Does moon phase effect crafting and drop rate? There is no general consensus on this. Crafting direction seems to be believed by less and less people, but there are plenty of experienced crafters who still swear by it. I've had to tell every DD in my social LS how and why they are lacking ACC even when they claim 'I dont miss much TPing in this askar body and str rings'.

If you want to do things wrong / be a beautiful and unique snowflake / whatever... Go for it. It just shouldn't be out of a lack of understanding of the game, and the game shouldn't go out of its way to keep you from understanding it.
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#27 Sep 22 2009 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
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Oh man, I just went into a little tirade about crafting here.

Summary: day, moon, and direction don't matter. It's been tested. People who have tested it and found otherwise were either lying (e.g., Eruntalon) or used sample sizes that were too small.

And no, I'm not happy that I spent many hours of my life figuring out nothing significant about crafting, but learning that rumors are impossible to un-perpetuate.
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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#28 Sep 22 2009 at 6:43 AM Rating: Decent
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they can hide stats and players will take it upon themselves to figure out the right amounts and put it into a understandable form, or they can provide information and make things not take degree's in mathematics to figure out.

whats so terrible about having something say "chance to hit equal level monster is 80%"
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#29 Sep 22 2009 at 6:44 AM Rating: Decent
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On that note, I ******* loved FFT.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#30 Sep 22 2009 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
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Then we have to wait for years for people to do every possible test conceivable in order to figure out how this stat affects that ability. You want to talk about losing the "immersion" factor? How does hiding stats so deeply that people literally have to run hundreds of tests under every possible circumstance to figure out what stats do instead of just playing the game make it "more" immersive? Besides that, some stats were just arbitrarily thrown on pieces of AF gear, making us think that they were somehow important to the job, and it turned out that there was absolutely no use for it whatsoever.


All I can remember is the test with a WHM ******* off mandys in sarutabaruta, poision potions, a friend, lots of cure (1), all just to get some idea of how enmity works. The number of cures was excessive.

If SCH had been a job at release, I dont think we would have had a problem.

SCHs are good at math.

This is what I hope we get to avoid in FFVIX. As far as the "Dont forget your life" message, hardcore gamers will always be willing to do tests like this.

Quote:
I hate that in WoW, there are 7659827593285 stats on each **** piece of equipment. Just make Dex or Agi add to accuracy, then show the stat. I'd be 100% happy with that.


I couldn't agree more. I think WoW really goes over the top. The offical armory site puts all the attainable items in the game on a list from best to worst... WoW secondary stats also have caps that are 'easy' to obtain. Accuracy with most casters is around 378 hit rating. Once you hit that you don't even need to gear for Acc ever again. No room for speculation.

I'm hoping for a balance between "XXX accuracy is the max, so I no longer need to gear for it" and "Dex = 1-2 acc and I have X skill with a weapon on darksday with a waxing moon at 53.2% , since the square route of the radius of my Gaxe raised to the power of pi is seemingly equivilant to when a drunken goblin.."

I think if things were planed well at the endgame level there could be several senarios in relation to gear. Something along the lines of choosing between a high acc or high attack setup. If you chose high attack gearing options, your accuracy wouldnt be bad, it just wouldnt be the same as the person who geared for higher acc at the cost of att. There could be a balanced approach as well, a +5att/+5 acc build as it were. In theory there would be a perfect mix, but that would be up to the player and their play style. The ultimate gear could put you up to a balance option of say +6/+6 or something. Better than balanced but not mega game breaking. The E-peeners would be happy too.

In more simple terms, show me my combat stats, but leave me room to speculate.
#31 Sep 22 2009 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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There seems to be an idea here that the secrecy of FFXI is harmful because it is forced on min/maxers, while the transparency of WoW would be still allow some players the option of playing without min/maxing. While this theory works in an offline single-player game, in an MMO it's completely false. Anybody who's played an MMO and been told, "X piece of gear or GTFO" knows this. It is only an option if the min/maxing players choose to ignore the "optimal" setup when playing with others. However, in a game as party driven as FFXI was (and to a degree still is), even before a lot of this math had deduced players still felt it their right and obligation to instruct lesser players on the "right" way to play.

I think the real question we have to ask ourselves is what stats are we comfortable knowing and not knowing. I liked the secrecy of FFXI to a degree, but I felt it was unevenly applied. I can see my DEX, and what +2 DEX does to that stat immediately. But when I add anything with ACC+, I had no idea what that plus was to. If ACC is measured on a scale of 1-10, +2 is amazing; on a scale of 1-255, not so much.

But that raises the question: What scales should be used? Take again ACC. Is it a rating? A percentage to hit an even level target of average evasion? Is it simply an incremental stat that is compared against a target's evasion?

Honestly, I would like to see as little numerical information as possible. I actually think it would be kind of interesting to see everything displayed as visually as possible. Think about how fighting games work. Each attack does X damage, but all we see of it is the decrease of the enemy life bar. But I realize that is just me, and that would probably drive a LOT of people insane, and not just because being able to say, "ZOMG 4k crit!" makes their e-peen feel good, either. But I feel that if you want secrecy, go all out. Otherwise, you need to be transparent consistently.
#32 Sep 22 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
There are going to be min/maxers either way, if you don't show stats/make the math hard/have 90000 stats you just end up with more people reading forums to determine the "best" rather than doing the math or experimenting themselves. As I've said before the best way to prevent "everyone must wear X or be gimp" is to have a ton of variety and side-grades rather than clear cut OP items.


I'm also really tired of manually adding DEX/skill/gear/food to find acc rating for people, it's just a waste of time.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2009 2:14pm by shintasama
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#33 Sep 22 2009 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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CrownDefender wrote:
There seems to be an idea here that the secrecy of FFXI is harmful because it is forced on min/maxers, while the transparency of WoW would be still allow some players the option of playing without min/maxing. While this theory works in an offline single-player game, in an MMO it's completely false. Anybody who's played an MMO and been told, "X piece of gear or GTFO" knows this. It is only an option if the min/maxing players choose to ignore the "optimal" setup when playing with others. However, in a game as party driven as FFXI was (and to a degree still is), even before a lot of this math had deduced players still felt it their right and obligation to instruct lesser players on the "right" way to play.

I think the real question we have to ask ourselves is what stats are we comfortable knowing and not knowing. I liked the secrecy of FFXI to a degree, but I felt it was unevenly applied. I can see my DEX, and what +2 DEX does to that stat immediately. But when I add anything with ACC+, I had no idea what that plus was to. If ACC is measured on a scale of 1-10, +2 is amazing; on a scale of 1-255, not so much.

But that raises the question: What scales should be used? Take again ACC. Is it a rating? A percentage to hit an even level target of average evasion? Is it simply an incremental stat that is compared against a target's evasion?

Honestly, I would like to see as little numerical information as possible. I actually think it would be kind of interesting to see everything displayed as visually as possible. Think about how fighting games work. Each attack does X damage, but all we see of it is the decrease of the enemy life bar. But I realize that is just me, and that would probably drive a LOT of people insane, and not just because being able to say, "ZOMG 4k crit!" makes their e-peen feel good, either. But I feel that if you want secrecy, go all out. Otherwise, you need to be transparent consistently.


I personally dislike this simply because I would have to manually add everything up. That would suck :/ If we couldnt see ANY numbers then we have no idea what is good, what isnt. If that was the case I'd probably just play an FPS :/
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#34 Sep 23 2009 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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I didn't say NO numbers, just as few as possible. If instead of the standard stat block, you had a radar graph with each stat plotted on it. Or even no stat shown at all, instead you only get your bonuses tallied for you without seeing the bases. This kind of representation still allows you to gauge the effect of one setup vs. another, but keeps the core mechanics hidden to reduce the narrow mindedness that leads to 95% of MMO gear being neglected due to a difference in fractions of a point in DPS difference. That, in turn could bolster the game economy by making more weapons worth using, therefore reducing the drastic cost difference between the "best" weapon and everything else of comparable level.

Then again, I also realize that's my personal preference, and have never not played a game simply because of the stat presentation method. ****, I even liked FFVIII and all you did with your GF and magic junctioning was min/max.
#35 Sep 23 2009 at 8:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I want to see all stats, if you want to make it so that not everyone is always wearing the same thing make damage more dependent on what your fighting. So you can see all the stats for you but depending on the monsters stats that your fighting the item may or may not be the best. Or another thing to do is just make a few different items with basicly the same stats.

Hiding stats will not change people from getting the best items. Things will be tested, and a certain item may come out on top. If you want to make it so people can use more than one item/weapon, make more that are basicly the same.
#36 Sep 23 2009 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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CrownDefender wrote:
There seems to be an idea here that the secrecy of FFXI is harmful because it is forced on min/maxers, while the transparency of WoW would be still allow some players the option of playing without min/maxing. While this theory works in an offline single-player game, in an MMO it's completely false. Anybody who's played an MMO and been told, "X piece of gear or GTFO" knows this. It is only an option if the min/maxing players choose to ignore the "optimal" setup when playing with others. However, in a game as party driven as FFXI was (and to a degree still is), even before a lot of this math had deduced players still felt it their right and obligation to instruct lesser players on the "right" way to play.

But knowledge of stats has no effect on this. People still say "x piece of gear or gtfo," regardless of whether they know how effective it is, because all that matters is how effective they believe it is. Reality doesn't matter, only perception does. Whether we know what the stats do has no effect. Eliminating transparency is going to make people any less gear elitist, at best it will shift around what gear is considered elite (due to inaccurate speculation).

You're also not being entirely honest here. You're acting like the possible inclination for players to be more discriminatory is equivalent to forcing something on other players. Not, not at all. If I tape a twenty dollar bill to my back am I forcing people to rob me? Would that hold up in court?

Finally, your speculation here is in dissonance with reality. FFXI has very vague game stats. WoW has near complete transparency. Can you honestly say that players in FFXI are less elitist about gear than those in WoW? If anything I'd submit as anecdotal evidence that players in FFXI were more elitist about gear.
#37 Sep 23 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know if it's as bad now that people know the formulas as it was when it was a mystery, but there was still definitely elitism-- it was just misguided elitism. A haubergeon still looks like a clearly superior option to other gear, and if we don't know about curvilinear benefits to accuracy and attack, it's not going to change that.

People might have been a bit more forgiving, but I think most of it was just that it was still early and the game and so the better gear was still relatively unattainable. For the most part I think accessibility (or lack thereof), not transparency (or lack thereof), has been the factor most responsible for elitism.
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#38 Sep 23 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
Of course, another way to deal with it would to have everything shown, but make stats function extremely complexly/situationally.

ex:
Make parry chance based off your dex/skill vs enemy agi/skill, but only be able to parry 1 attack per speed of your swing (favoring fast, low dmg weapons), but then also decrease parry rate if the dmg of the attacker is too high compared to dmg of your weapon. etcetc.

Since there will be a lot more solo, there will probably be fewer max DDs if that means trading off more dmg resistance too.
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#39 Sep 23 2009 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Switching gears slightly, what does everyone thing (or perhaps know if you have experience from another MMO) the result would be of having an extremely wide variety of gear difficulty to achieve and proportional quality. We see a little of this with Relic and Mythic weapons, as apposed to 20k AHable pick-it-up-off-the-ground weapons. But what happens when it's possible at every level and with a lot more consistently. What if there is a spectrum of choices (in terms of difficulty to obtain and corresponding quality). Does this work to give people a little more slack, or does it just push everyone to work that 300 hour whatever quest to get the gear elitism requires.

Personally, I think it's a lot more likely to cause the latter, but it was something I was thinking about and I was curious for other people's opinions.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2009 6:22pm by Hulan
#40 Sep 23 2009 at 7:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hulan wrote:
But what happens when it's possible at every level and with a lot more consistently.

It doesn't matter beyond max level. Most MMORPGs are designed such that every level before max level is meaningless. Gear obtained them has at best ephemeral value.

As for your overall question, I believe that a wider array of gear reduces the atmosphere of elitism in a game. As the interval between quality of gear increases, it becomes easier for players to sort others into groups. If there are only 2 sets of gear in a game, one being better than the other, then it is very easy to discriminate based on gear. If that expands to 3 sets, then the distinction becomes a little hard. 10 sets and you are beginning to see a spectrum.

However, I feel that is the wrong way to approach the situation, though it is the easiest. What I believe is the most optimal solution is to provide a horizontal selection of gear rather than purely vertical. I don't think gear for damage dealers should be only about dealing more damage; I'd like to see it provide them different ways of dealing damage. Maybe one dragoon set is all about boosting wyvern damage while another is about maxing haste. Maybe one healing set is about increasing the potency of protect and shell while another focuses on regenerating health. Balance is more difficult, but I believe the game becomes far more interesting as a result.
#41 Sep 24 2009 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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Kind of mirroring Allegory here in that it's too easy of a bandaid to not implement. It's not going to completely solve the problem, but it will definitely reduce it significantly.

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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#42 Sep 24 2009 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
Allegory wrote:
Hulan wrote:
But what happens when it's possible at every level and with a lot more consistently.

It doesn't matter beyond max level. Most MMORPGs are designed such that every level before max level is meaningless. Gear obtained them has at best ephemeral value.

As for your overall question, I believe that a wider array of gear reduces the atmosphere of elitism in a game. As the interval between quality of gear increases, it becomes easier for players to sort others into groups. If there are only 2 sets of gear in a game, one being better than the other, then it is very easy to discriminate based on gear. If that expands to 3 sets, then the distinction becomes a little hard. 10 sets and you are beginning to see a spectrum.

However, I feel that is the wrong way to approach the situation, though it is the easiest. What I believe is the most optimal solution is to provide a horizontal selection of gear rather than purely vertical. I don't think gear for damage dealers should be only about dealing more damage; I'd like to see it provide them different ways of dealing damage. Maybe one dragoon set is all about boosting wyvern damage while another is about maxing haste. Maybe one healing set is about increasing the potency of protect and shell while another focuses on regenerating health. Balance is more difficult, but I believe the game becomes far more interesting as a result.
*this*
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#43 Sep 24 2009 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You're also not being entirely honest here. You're acting like the possible inclination for players to be more discriminatory is equivalent to forcing something on other players. Not, not at all. If I tape a twenty dollar bill to my back am I forcing people to rob me? Would that hold up in court?
Not to argue, but I think you missed what I was saying a bit. All I meant was that if the stats are shown, then you are now forcing some people to min/max to a degree just to stay relevant, which in some cases can be as bad as having to struggle with vague stats. This min/maxing becomes "forced" by the attitude of the player community in general, which I feel is as bad as the alternative is to min/maxing players. Using a secretive system wouldn't necessarily end elitism (which I guess I inadvertently implied), rather, it removes the mathematical basis for it, which is often a matter of inches to the mile in improvement.

Also, I'm not usually one to frown upon so called real life examples, but I have to admit that yours here seems to make little sense to me. If you want a real life example, it's like the difference between a well made pair of lesser brand shoes and a pair of say, Nikes. The Nikes MAY be slightly better shoes, but is the 10 times the price worth of better? Perhaps to a professional athlete, yes. But even to a casual athlete, they will be served just as well by the lesser brand shoes. It's when the peer group decides to enforce a pro attitude in a casual setting that this kind of pressure I'm talking about comes into play. And I'm not talking about the difference between gimp and adequate, either. You want to play basketball, don't wear flipflops, duh. On AV, yeah, gear is massively important. On Colibri, not so much.

Quote:
Finally, your speculation here is in dissonance with reality. FFXI has very vague game stats. WoW has near complete transparency. Can you honestly say that players in FFXI are less elitist about gear than those in WoW? If anything I'd submit as anecdotal evidence that players in FFXI were more elitist about gear.

Yes, I agree. I noted this seeming paradox, too. I kind of forgot to address it, my bad. While that is true, the reason has nothing to do with transparency (which with the exception of a few things, I don't believe really exists in FFXI anymore). You actually touched on the reason for that in another post. Horizontal versus vertical advancement. In WoW, each character has so many options available that by the time you factor in not only your job and talent specs, but also play style (PvE, PvP, Raiding, etc...) you have many options available to your character. On top of that, you have so many gear pieces that you can achieve similar results using several different gear builds. In FFXI, you have a decent gear selection, but at each tier you have one clearly best piece and nothing else even comparable. Unless you count NQ and HQ. It was the ability to clearly identify a superior piece combined with limited application based on job selection that causes that elitism in FFXI. Detailed stat blocks or not, this is what I really want from FFXIV- a TRULY customizable play experience.

The idea of stat secrecy just appeals to me because I believe that the perceived inferiority of a lot of gear and setups is simply because the math says something else is better. We can all tell the difference between good and bad performance. I just think a lot of people would have more fun if they didn't spend the a whole EXP party bemoaning "we could get another 150 exp/hr if the DD had X instead of Y"- a fact they could only have calculated using very heavy math and having access to every relevant piece of data. As I have said, though, this is my own preference, so I'm not saying that it is the right way, I'm just trying to illustrate the other side of the argument.
#44 Sep 25 2009 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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CrownDefender wrote:
Not to argue, but I think you missed what I was saying a bit. All I meant was that if the stats are shown, then you are now forcing some people to min/max to a degree just to stay relevant, which in some cases can be as bad as having to struggle with vague stats.

I'm not sure I did miss your point; I just completely disagree.

I disagreed with the bolded term. Full stat transparency is forcing anything on anyone. It is necessarily optional. Letting people know what stats do doesn't force them to min or max, it just lets them accurately do what they were already trying to do before. I want to also emphasize the second part of that sentence, they were already trying to do it before. Transparency doesn't increase or decrease anyone's desire to min/max, it just lets them do it with greater accuracy.
CrownDefender wrote:
This min/maxing becomes "forced" by the attitude of the player community in general, which I feel is as bad as the alternative is to min/maxing players. Using a secretive system wouldn't necessarily end elitism (which I guess I inadvertently implied), rather, it removes the mathematical basis for it, which is often a matter of inches to the mile in improvement.

Again, I don't believe I have missed your point; I just believe you're completely wrong.

First, any degree of social stigma is not equivalent to having a conditioned forced upon you. When stats are hidden from players, then they are actually forced to not know what stats do. I have no chance to see what stats do. I have no opportunity. That is being forced. A few players making fun of my gear isn't forcing anything on me.

Second, and more importantly, showing stats changes nothing socially. People aren't less elitist when they don't know what stats do. If anything, practical applications have demonstrated that they become MORE elitist when they don't know what stats do, because their imaginations run wild.

You argument is largely supported by the unfounded speculation that transparency of stats will many more people into min/maxers and those people will all be jerks to everyone who isn't min/maxing. You're assuming far too much to have a credible argument.

If you want a real life example, it's like the difference between a well made pair of lesser brand shoes and a pair of say, Nikes. The Nikes MAY be slightly better shoes, but is the 10 times the price worth of better? Perhaps to a professional athlete, yes. But even to a casual athlete, they will be served just as well by the lesser brand shoes. It's when the peer group decides to enforce a pro attitude in a casual setting that this kind of pressure I'm talking about comes into play.[/quote]
Your example is flawed, as it doesn't accurately parallel the situation.

The difference with transparency is not that one piece of gear is better than the other. Both transparent and ambiguous systems have gear of varying quality. The difference is in knowing exact how much that gear affects your performance.

The difference is a store which displays a quality Nike shoe next to a crappy "Nykey" shoe with a sign that says "Nike is better than Nykey," and another store that has the same shoes next to each other with a sign that says "Nike will let you run 8% faster than Nykey." The difference isn't in the existence of different qualities, the difference is in knowing the quantitative difference in those qualities.

Quote:
Finally, your speculation here is in dissonance with reality. FFXI has very vague game stats. WoW has near complete transparency. Can you honestly say that players in FFXI are less elitist about gear than those in WoW? If anything I'd submit as anecdotal evidence that players in FFXI were more elitist about gear.

Quote:
The idea of stat secrecy just appeals to me because I believe that the perceived inferiority of a lot of gear and setups is simply because the math says something else is better.

That is incredibly naive. You're assuming that people need any sort of evidence, truth, or hint of reality to back up their perceptions; they don't. When people thought mnks did terrible damage because of smaller (but faster) hits, was that because of any math actually demonstrating their low DPS or was it entirely baseless speculation?

When stats are fully transparent there is no undervaluing or overvaluing of gear. If gear A provides 3% more damage than gear B, then the perception that gear A is better than gear B is entirely accurte, and not only that but then no one can say that gear b "sucks" simply because it is worse, because we know exactly how little difference there is.

Ignorance leads to discrimination, not knowledge.
#45 Sep 25 2009 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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Its obvious what side of the debate you sit on (though I'm not really debating), but I just don't think you're seeing the other side of things. If a player can't get a party without adhering to the playerbase's conceived notion of the best setup, they have two choices, don't play or conform. If the desired outcome is to play, then they must conform. That's a matter of forced restriction. Just like how for a long time, no one would take anyone but RNGs and SMNs for Promies. A lot of people were forced to level those jobs just to get passed them.

Look, I'm not making a case for hiding everything. I'll still play the game- I've said so 4 times now. I'm just trying to point out how some people like to play, ie: not bogged down in formulae and charts that in the end only eke out a minor increase compared to another alternative. But my argument is not based on assumption. It's based on experience. I've watched 7 years of FFXI playerbase go from happy to explore and experiment with whatever they wanted to a place where we use stat calculators, damage/WS calculators, and parsers just to be sure that at every gaming moment we (and everyone else) are performing at peak. You have said yourself that "players in FFXI were more elitist about gear." In my experience, it wasn't always like that. First it started with job combinations. Then weapon choices, then finally gear builds. And the correlation that I have seen is that the more we decrypted the game, the more narrowminded some people got. And while I would never tell someone that they shouldn't play that way, I only ask that courtesy from other people. So the assertion that:
Quote:
You are stating that one group is harmed by providing them an option they don't care for. You favor forcing another group to not be able to take access that information.
is fallacious in that it uses loaded wording that assumes that anyone who can prove that your gear is not the best, will refrain from instructing you on the right way, or that the playerbase as a whole will tolerate decent gear in lieu of elite gear. Which in my experience, it will not when the gear selection and character build possibilities are so narrowly defined as we both acknowledge as a downside of FFXI. The reality is that the group mentality is often just as much of a conformist mandate as any hard coded mechanic. I'm not disputing that secrecy hurts power gamers, I'm disputing that transparency doesn't affect casual gamers. Sure they can ignore the stats, but in an MMO environment, they can't ignore the zeitgeist while being a part of the community.

I merely suggested a technique that I thought would be interesting, wherein stats and damage are handled in a manner similar to fighting games. And when I say secretive, I don't mean this half assed, inconsistent transparency of FFXI. I mean true and total obfuscate system. I think its worth noting that I have never seen a website that features an in depth mathematical analysis of the damage of a Hadoken versus a Shoryuken.

I completely respect your disagreement, I only humbly ask that others respect the more casual gamers who are smart enough not to show up to the Dunes in lvl 1 RSE, but choose a B+ rated weapon over an A for anything outside hardcore play. Because some people just don't care about adding .5 DPS or adding one extra attack every two minutes, they just like using their preferred weapon.

Edited, Sep 25th 2009 11:32pm by CrownDefender
#46 Sep 25 2009 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Part of the community forcing something on somebody is much better than the game mechanics themselves forcing something, because when it's half the community you can give them the finger and carry on doing what you want.
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#47 Sep 25 2009 at 8:04 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
I think its worth noting that I have never seen a website that features an in depth mathematical analysis of the damage of a Hadoken versus a Shoryuken.

www.google.com: "I'm feeling lucky":
Street Fighter IV dmg guide wrote:
 
move                      hits min max notes 
Shoryureppa                  6 400 
Shinryuken (AB)             17 380 546 
Shinku Hadouken              5 300     (projectile) 
Metsu Hadouken               8 273 398 (projectile) 


Hiding stats doesn't prevent elitism, it doesn't prevent min/maxing, it doesn't prevent social prejudice. All it does is increase the number of "wrong" theories/prejudices before people straighten out how things actaully work (and pretty much forces people to come to forums to find info rather than playing with stuff on their own). There will always be a gear setup/group/job that the player base decides is "best", +/- transparency doesn't change that.

EX: People back in the day didn't realize how crappy turtle PLD was for exp, or how worthless stacking def/VIT is, but I was still expected to have a glut sword and earth staff or I was "gimp".

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 12:21am by shintasama
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Winston Churchill wrote:
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#48 Sep 25 2009 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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CrownDefender wrote:
I just don't think you're seeing the other side of things.

I don't wish to be rude, but I believe it seems like you're dismissing my disagreement as lack of understanding. I get it. I understand your case. I just don't believe it has any merit.
CrownDefender wrote:
If a player can't get a party without adhering to the playerbase's conceived notion of the best setup, they have two choices, don't play or conform.

That is a grandiose assumption, and it is so obviously not true. The entire playerbase doesn't share the same consistent view of min/maxing.

You transition from comparative statements to superlative ones without batting an eye.
"People discriminate somewhat based on gear," becomes "People won't ever accept less than the best."
"Some people are min/maxers," becomes "Everyone else is a min/maxer."
"I might have trouble finding a party," becomes "I will literally never get a group."

You act like because a few players on a server are vary discriminating, require nothing but the best gear to party with them, that you are somehow forced to conform to their minority viewpoint.

In every game I have played there have been elitists. Likewise in every game I played you could find a group with craptacular gear. You might not get a group as fast as someone with good gear. You might not get as well equipped a group as someone with good gear. But you could get a group. You aren't forced to conform to anyone's viewpoint.



However, none of that even matters because I have still proposed that transparency doesn't make players any more elitist and you have still yet to contest that assertion with anything more than a statement to the contrary.


CrownDefender wrote:
I'm just trying to point out how some people like to play, ie: not bogged down in formulae and charts that in the end only eke out a minor increase compared to another alternative.

Yes... I already acknowledge that at the beginning of the thread. I'm sayign that providing transparency takes nothing away from that demographic. They aren't forced to read formulae and charts. They aren't forced to min/max. People aren't going to be more elitist because of transparency. No one is hurt or loses any freedom by making stats transparent, while one hurt is hurt by allowing stats to remain ambiguous. No one loses with transparency.
CrownDefender wrote:
You have said yourself that "players in FFXI were more elitist about gear." In my experience, it wasn't always like that. First it started with job combinations. Then weapon choices, then finally gear builds. And the correlation that I have seen is that the more we decrypted the game, the more narrowminded some people got.

You're making the correlation/causation error even if your anecdote accurately reflected history.

The elitism had nothing to do with decrypting the game and everything to do with the game aging. The same situation is true of WoW or any MMORPG. When the game is new, people are still figuring out how to play. It's not that they have any more or less desire to stat max, but that they need to learn the game first before they attempt to do so. When the game is new, people are busy leveling. They have the same desire to stat max as they would later on, but it's not worth their time to get +1 armor they will out level in 20 minutes.
CrownDefender wrote:
And while I would never tell someone that they shouldn't play that way, I only ask that courtesy from other people.

But you are telling them how to play. By not having transparency you are forcing others to play in ignorance of what stats do. You are forcing them to play the way you want them to.
CrownDefender wrote:
Is fallacious in that it uses loaded wording that assumes that anyone who can prove that your gear is not the best, will refrain from instructing you on the right way, or that the playerbase as a whole will tolerate decent gear in lieu of elite gear.

Completely ridiculous. You are taking the situation to a ridiculously implausible extreme. You are literally saying here that any player who is capable of recognizing that 2 str is better for a warrior than 1 str must necessarily, because of some magical compulsion, point out this fact to every warrior he meets who is not wearing +1 armor. You do understand this is what you have literally said?
CrownDefender wrote:
I'm not disputing that secrecy hurts power gamers, I'm disputing that transparency doesn't affect casual gamers.

Yes, and I say you're wrong, and you have yet to contest my claims on that.
CrownDefender wrote:
I think its worth noting that I have never seen a website that features an in depth mathematical analysis of the damage of a Hadoken versus a Shoryuken.

You would if it were reasonably possible. Too much other information, such as counters, safety, combo chaining, are far more important than how much raw DPS a move can put out on a dummy target.
CrownDefender wrote:
I completely respect your disagreement, I only humbly ask that others respect the more casual gamers who are smart enough not to show up to the Dunes in lvl 1 RSE, but choose a B+ rated weapon over an A for anything outside hardcore play.

I can't speak for everyone of course, but I do respect those player. I don't spend my MMORPG days walking up to undergeared players, emoting laugh, and then insulting their parentage.

However, I do want to be clear on what at least I consider to be respect. I'm never going to go out of my way to insult an undergeared player, but if I see a warrior and a warrior+1 both seeking (and not knowing either of them I assume them equally competent), then as a party leader I'm going to pick the warrior+1 every time.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 12:24am by Allegory
#49 Sep 26 2009 at 12:32 AM Rating: Good
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You transition from comparative statements to superlative ones without batting an eye.
"People discriminate somewhat based on gear," becomes "People won't ever accept less than the best."
"Some people are min/maxers," becomes "Everyone else is a min/maxer."
"I might have trouble finding a party," becomes "I will literally never get a group."
Not quite. I never actually spoke in absolute terms. And while yes, making assumptions on individual behavior based on general patterns is wrong, that's not what I was doing. I did a search, and not once did I say "every" or "always" in relation to player behavior. I was speaking purely in the generalized, sociological context. I'm not so much as saying that tolerance is non existent, as that is (in my experience) is usually the exception rather than the rule. When I say that individuals have the choice of "conform or GTFO," I only mean that in the case that there is no other alternative for the desired activity. If the community as a whole will not take a DRG into a Promyvion, for example, what option does the DRG have? Not soloing, that's certain. It may not be completely impossible to get a group, but also is it not impossible to /roll three 999s in a row.

Earlier you said "any degree of social stigma is not equivalent to having a conditioned forced upon you." I disagree. And I'm sure the 'lolmeleerdm' community, would like to disagree. As would melee avatar SMNs. And WARs who use anything but /NIN and two axes (actually, I think this is finally less common than once was). I maintain that the strength of the general popular opinion is inversely proportional to the amount of room to succeed outside of the social norm. And until things like Besieged, then Campaign, and of course FoV, there was unarguably almost no room for anti-popular opinion. Therefore, I believe that it is up to a good game design to provide a path for as many play styles as possible.

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However, none of that even matters because I have still proposed that transparency doesn't make players any more elitist and you have still yet to contest that assertion with anything more than a statement to the contrary.
You have proposed, and supported with anecdotal evidence, observation, and personal insight. Which is exactly what I have done. I'm not entirely certain what kind of empirical data you would have me produce. But I recognize that one of us might be right and the other might be wrong. ****, far more likely is that the picture is much bigger than all this and there is some truth in both points, and then some. But, in all this, I am respecting your opinion as a rational and obviously intelligent person, without trying make you back your assertions. Now, if you have some demographic data, possibly a well sampled survey to back up your claims, or maybe a few years of game design and maintenance, preferably in the MMO field, I would concede to your expertise in a moment. Not to mention be intensely jealous. But as I see it, we are working from a level playing field, ie: Players in a game who have drawn certain conclusions based on personal experiences. Since our experiences are probably drastically different, it is no wonder that we yield different results.

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Completely ridiculous. You are taking the situation to a ridiculously implausible extreme. You are literally saying here that any player who is capable of recognizing that 2 str is better for a warrior than 1 str must necessarily, because of some magical compulsion, point out this fact to every warrior he meets who is not wearing +1 armor. You do understand this is what you have literally said?
I'm sorry, but that is not what I intended. Perhaps the use of the word "everyone" rather than "anyone" would make my point clearer. What I am trying to say is that when someone tells me that I am a "gimp" player and belittles me for choosing SwordA instead of SwordB, all for the sake of an increase of .25 DPS +0.01% chance to crit, and +0.2% parry, they are detracting from my gaming experience. This is far more in depth than recognizing that 2 STR>1 STR. Unless- and this is the crux of my point- unless the game gives you all that info. If a player wants to shoot me down for a perfectly effective but sub-optimal gear choice, I'd rather the developers not be handing over the keys to the gun cabinet. And I did not say that EVERYONE who utilizes min/maxing WILL be compelled to be an asshat. Rather, I said that in order for transparency to NOT harm casual players (which, if I am not mistaken, is your claim), then every min/maxer must NOT utilize it that way. But there will always be that one person who feels compelled to instruct others. I just feel like giving too much away in terms of game mechanics can elicit that type of behavior of more borderline personalities.

Which brings me to:
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I can't speak for everyone of course, but I do respect those player. I don't spend my MMORPG days walking up to undergeared players, emoting laugh, and then insulting their parentage.
I in no way meant to imply that you or any other transparency advocate here merely wanted it to use as a tool to look down on others. If I did, I do apologize sincerely. Completely not what I intended. All I merely wished to point out is that there will ALWAYS be people like the aforementioned asshat, and they make a game as frustrating for people like me as the lack of concrete battle stats and mechanics must make for gamers like you. I think it was best said earlier:
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After playing quite a bit of WoW and seeing the opposite side of the coin, I rather missed the aura of mystique that comes from gearing properly in FFXI. When everything is 100% transparent it makes everything feel...more robotic somehow. There is one clear and proper way to gear your character because it can be shown with math; opinion and debate get thrown out the window and your character feels a bit less like your own original creation and more like a collection of numbers and statistics in humanoid form.
I want my character to feel like my own, progressed on my own terms, and not a reflection of the game community's "insights." Whatever they have to do to achieve that, I am completely comfortable with. I think some confusion arose because what I said about not showing any stat numbers. I just think that could be an interesting way to try to develop an RPG. I didn't necessarily think that they SHOULD do that with XIV, just that it could be neat if they did. I believe I said whatever they do, above all they need to be consistent with it. So yeah, I guess that's it, really.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 4:33am by CrownDefender
#50 Sep 26 2009 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
CD wrote:
I want my character to feel like my own, progressed on my own terms, and not a reflection of the game community's "insights." Whatever they have to do to achieve that, I am completely comfortable with. I think some confusion arose because what I said about not showing any stat numbers. I just think that could be an interesting way to try to develop an RPG. I didn't necessarily think that they SHOULD do that with XIV, just that it could be neat if they did. I believe I said whatever they do, above all they need to be consistent with it. So yeah, I guess that's it, really.
You argument is completely invalid because you still haven't explained how you think lack of transparency is going to stop min/maxers/elitists/prejudice. The devs could leave every weapon/gear/etc completely descriptionless other than the name and we'd still go out and figure out which killed faster and what combinations work best and we'd still develop prejudices based on jobs/etc.

You mentioned melee RDM/SMN, what "stats" shown by the game convinced people that it was a good idea to make them backline only? It's completely based on the general experiences of the playerbase during gameplay not theorycraft, and removing/obscuring stats doesn't change that. It's completely ridiculous that you think that transparency and elitism are that closely related.
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#51 Sep 26 2009 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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You argument is completely invalid because you still haven't explained how you think lack of transparency is going to stop min/maxers/elitists/prejudice.


It won't stop them, but it's going to slow them down.
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