Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Things from FFXI you DON'T want in FFXIVFollow

#52 Sep 22 2009 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
13 posts
Show. Capes. In. Game.

also, if an item or pice of gear has an enchantment on it... like Regen Cuirass, even though the enchantment is on a timer, show it on the armor visually in game... also, for enspells/weapons with elemental enchantment, i wan the **** to show on the weapon... i want my Bayards sword covered in ice when i cast Enblizzard... i want it to have sparks all over it w/ entunder etc... also... i want mobs to show which debuffs/buffs they have on them, just like in Final Fantasy XII... u know... a black splotch next to the name for blind... all the things players see on the top of there screen, should be seen on the mob. also... one thiong i find irritating is the only things u see in the status menus are your core attributes. why dont they show IN THE MENU, your enmity... your haste%.. etc? its just inconvenient to add it up yourself, when they quite simply can just add it to the screen. also, i would like there to be more weapons in game.. and more Job specific weapons... like for example.. drks can use sword.. axe, gaxe, gsword and scythe... when has anyone ever seen a drk w a sword AND shield? never. pick one.. and allow more choices in the specific field... also, staves as a dd weapon would be nice... no reason dancer should have a dagger, when they coould dance around with a staff, makes more sens IMO

/end rant
#53 Sep 22 2009 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
13 posts
i forgot to add...

on droprates...

someone stated in an earlier post that they understand se wants to make things rare, but making the droprate .000001 percent is ludicrous.

i agree.. what i think they should do is make enemies more difficult.. ok so you can kill the **** dragon, but you end up killing it 49872 times... and still dont get the drop, now ur frustrated and dont wanna fight the same **** thing again. make the enemies that drop rediculous equip/gil.. rediculous, its more fun that way.. if 6 people want to kill {random endgame boss} in order to get a specific sword, they wont mind dying 50 times, if its a 25-75% drop rate

1 example of this that i really like is Charybdis for Joyeuse...

i dont have one yet, but i know when i kill it, i get my sword. i understand that this nm isnt godly, but its also no the best sword in game... which brings me to my next point.

mythic weapons.

the whole currency thing = fail.
i dont mind collecting items in order to get a legendary sword... but just repeatedly doing an event for rare drops is annoying and offers no story as to how/why this weapon is "mythic"...

think of it like Omega weapon in FFVIII. hard to kill. you had to thinik about it, etc... but when u finally got him down u got a key item. now, bring that key item to some random dungeon, read alittle more story, fight another boss, etc, etc... make the important stuff interesting...

i apologize, but the fact is that FFXI is a great game with a great amount of flaws. no game is perfect, but its simple stuff they could fix
#54 Sep 22 2009 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
828 posts
Yashnaheen wrote:
Top tier R/E that you can't actually work tward. You have to wait in line and wait for a low % drop for anything good currently. Apply something like the current Ichor or Assault Points system to anything top tier and unsellable. I shouldn't have to hear stories of people waiting a year / going through many LSs / never in 3 years to get anything. Going to an event twice a week and having 6+ weeks go by before you build up the currency / points or whatever get one piece of a set is fine. You are working tward what you want and make progress each time you go. Going to an event twice a week for 6 weeks and getting nothing is not fine. Throw in some sellable mats, currency and upgrade items to keep people interested in the event after they get the 2 out of 5 good pieces of a set.

On that note, Gear that is intended to be 'rare'. That is just manufacturing disparity in the playerbase for the purpose of... Why again? I never caught that part. Is any DD being able to work tward a heca cap without giving up thier life or sanity game breaking? Time and effort is fine, but only a handful on the whole server AND one of the best pieces in the game is not fine.


i like this, especially when you look in ffxi and items like the evokers ring, takes a bit of work to get and its a top ring, but its available to everyone, makes no difference if you do the quest in a day or a month you can still get the ring, and feels alot more accomplished than camping some nm. and then story items like suppa and cop rings. doesnt matter if you do a little each day or try and burn through it. as long as no single part takes more than a couple of hours. 14 needs alot more of this type of thing imo,

one thing i have mixed views on is EX. sometimes i think they should scrap it. i have a load of ra/ex stuff i'll hardly ever use, from bounding boots to my glamor jupon to my koga hakama, would be nice if i could pass these onto other people who'll make alot more use out of them than me, trouble is i can imagine what sky/limbus/dynamis would be like if you could put stuff like kitty pants / thiefs gloves up on the ah. so it seems a somewhat necessary evil.

but that said every item should be within the reach of every player willing to put in the effort to obtain it. and i dont mean effort as in the necessity to be online 24/7. i mean effort like doing the zilart missions or cop just designed in such a way that no one part should take longer than a couple of hours to do,

Edited, Sep 22nd 2009 2:16pm by Dzian
____________________________


#55 Sep 22 2009 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
134 posts
Alot of people talk about ways of acquiring gear but no one really talk about the impact of gear itself. I always felt gear in FF11 from lv10-75 has far to little impact. I could spent a few million on HQ gear and foods and someone else spend a few thousend gil with no food and there wouldn't be not much of difference. 95% of gear I went after was for cosmetic reasons. There was serious lack of motivation to gear up sense it had such small impact. In other games even a single upgrade, you could see your damage go up a bit.
#56 Sep 22 2009 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
Mitsuuko wrote:
Alot of people talk about ways of acquiring gear but no one really talk about the impact of gear itself. I always felt gear in FF11 from lv10-75 has far to little impact. I could spent a few million on HQ gear and foods and someone else spend a few thousend gil with no food and there wouldn't be not much of difference. 95% of gear I went after was for cosmetic reasons. There was serious lack of motivation to gear up sense it had such small impact. In other games even a single upgrade, you could see your damage go up a bit.


You my friend need to DL a parser. I used to think as you do until I learned it's not true. Actually, it depends on the level. Many years ago while leveling SAM, I was in cape terrigan fighting pugs and crabs. Anyways, I dinged lv59 and equipped my hauby. That was a huge difference even back then. Rajas ring, Peacock charm, Brutal earring, Homam gear, Scorpion harness, and the list goes on.

If you don't see a difference, look at the other causes. Maybe the person with less HQ gear than you has merits or is eating better food. Or just maybe they are just better at macro swapping allowing them to pull ahead. Skill >> gear However, if you have skill, gear is 2nd important with race counting for a distant 3rd.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2009 3:36pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#57 Sep 22 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
134 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:

You my friend need to DL a parser.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2009 3:36pm by ShadowedgeFFXI


That what I was trying to get to. You actually need to parse to see a difference when dealing with a single gear upgrade.

And I am certainly not saying there isnt a great difference from horrible gear to great gear. There certainly is, I was just making the observation that I felt that gear didnt have a "big enough" impact in FF11.

EDIT: I think skill should be relevent but I dont think it should overshadow gear. Lets not make another Monster Hunter MMO =o

Edited, Sep 22nd 2009 4:44pm by Mitsuuko
#58 Sep 22 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Excellent
Building up anticipation for a year over Mythic weapons only to have them turn out as ridiculous to get as relic but not nearly as good; insane requirements for items. I can understand requiring that a player is versed in multiple areas of endgame to get an ultimate item, but the whole "collect 30,000 of item-X" thing is boring *********

More systems like einherjar/assualt (do activity, get points, spend points on w/e), but with worthwhile rewards compared to luck based drops.
Quote:
That what I was trying to get to. You actually need to parse to see a difference when dealing with a single gear upgrade.

And I am certainly not saying there isnt a great difference from horrible gear to great gear. There certainly is, I was just making the observation that I felt that gear didnt have a "big enough" impact in FF11.
I disagree, there are plenty of pieces that have a "big impact" on dmg (10%+), but you'll never eyeball the difference because of human perception (psych tests show that generally intensity needs to increase ~10x before people think it it went up 2x). I'd much rather have lots of tiny upgrades and side grades mixed with activities that require more skill/knowledge/focus, that way the difference between the "haves" and the "have nots" isn't as great. Also, this cuts down on cookie cutters.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#59 Sep 22 2009 at 4:22 PM Rating: Good
**
565 posts
eldelphia wrote:
Large empty zones where nothing much happens.


In other words, starter cities.
____________________________
~ Retired...? Maybe not... ~
#60 Sep 22 2009 at 4:44 PM Rating: Default
***
1,353 posts
Quote:

oOOOOhhh I didnt see this!

Why should that extra 2 stat points cost 12 hours or 30 million gil? I mean honestly why should someone have to devote so much time to that single item if they want to be 'the best'. Thats just retarded. I would like a challange of 'skill' not a challange of patience.
You clearly have no concept of the idea of a luxury or the idea of a player driven economy. I can understand your argument about the time, but gil? Items are worth however much someone will pay for them. If something is the BEST, absolute BEST, it's going to 1) cost a lot, 2)be sold by NPCs for cheap, or 3)will be incredibly easy to quest. Pick which one you want.

Why should it? Because it's not "that extra" it is "the extra". "The extra" point that you cannot get any other way. That extra is like food, or some poor ring. These are points you can't get except to devote time and that's the whole point.

If you want to be "the best" at an MMO, you better be ready to devote way more than 12 hours AND 30 million gil. Realize this game isn't the most important thing. You 'winning' isn't some right you have and you won't die irl if you're only average. You aren't special. You won't always come out on top. It's like with any other decent hobby.

There's casual, average, dedicated, hardcore, then another set that's so far above hardcore, hardcore couldn't dream of getting there. To get there takes a lot of time and energy. You might be the best longboarder in town bombing hills at 45mph, but there are dudes in Europe that fly down mountains at over 70. You're car may be fast, but an f1 car will beat it anyday. You may be able to not study and get A's in college, but there's some 20 year old kid making a breakthrough in string theory, somewhere.

No one says **** about the stuff they don't see, but for some reason, when someone sees someone so much better than them walking around in an MMO they feel like they somehow deserve to be that good without any of the work that went into it. "It shouldn't take blahblah." It's SEs game, it should take whatever they think it should take.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#61 Sep 22 2009 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
349 posts
Spending time to get the best gear is fine. But wouldn't you rather that time your spending be spent actually doing something in game to get the gear, rather then sitting around waiting to maybe get a chance to get the gear? Personally Id rather run a 6 hour raid twice to get a piece of gear then spend 12 hours camping a spawn. Which sounds more fun to you ?

Edited, Sep 22nd 2009 9:34pm by mezlabor
____________________________
That was no hemroid doctor. That was an alien hoobajoob
#62 Sep 22 2009 at 5:40 PM Rating: Default
**
879 posts
Stupid people.
____________________________
Spiderpalm, level 32 Undead Warlock of the server Lightbringer.
#63 Sep 22 2009 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
349 posts
Quote:
Stupid people.
Well this was a constructive post. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
____________________________
That was no hemroid doctor. That was an alien hoobajoob
#64 Sep 22 2009 at 6:52 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
285 posts
Well, a lot of people seem to disagree with you. Yes the BEST should take work. But not the rediculous amount of work FFXI requires that can sometimes lead to nothing.

edit: to expand upon what I posted. People, most people in fact do not have an enormous amount of time to spend playing a MMO. We have jobs, families, other activities that we must do. Simply being able to devote a MASSIVE amount more time to a game should not be the only reason you get 'super phats'. A few mmo's have hard raids. They're hard in that they take planning, coordination, and skill. Not 8 hours a day of camping or farming.

Quote:
If you want to be "the best" at an MMO, you better be ready to devote way more than 12 hours AND 30 million gil. Realize this game isn't the most important thing. You 'winning' isn't some right you have and you won't die irl if you're only average. You aren't special. You won't always come out on top. It's like with any other decent hobby.


Thats retarded. Let me explain why that is retarded. You're devoting that much time so such a minimal increase, yet it is required to be accepted into the 'upper level' group. That just isnt fun! A video game is supposed to be fun. If you were devoting that much time with an entire guild for progression (minus the gil) then fine, that makes sense. But simply farming, camping and grinding away? Give me a farking break.

I dont like to throw around the world elitism and elitist as such things are inherently good. Everyone should be an elitist, that simply means striving to be the best. Its when the people take it to the next level and exclude people who haven't (read: cannot) devote the EXCESSIVE amount of time they have, when things become problematic.

Back in the day when gil farmers were on the rise a haub could cost around 2-3 mil. This was when I dedicated most of my time to the game AND read up enough to knew it was EXPECTED I have that item. So I toughed through it and farmed it. Now that I have a job, I simply could not do that. I would not and will not play a game that means I have to realistically take two weeks off and farm for ONE item.

SE wants this game to attract more then just a kids who skip school to play games, thats why they're moving away from the crazy hardcore kill someone over hacking your account group, and moving a little more towards the 'casual' side.

That was a little rantish, so sorry about that. TL;DR, Grinding for 12 hours for +2 stats bad, having fun is good.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2009 10:57pm by shaani
____________________________
Shaani - Cait sith
75 Samurai
Other crap that isnt 75

Morente wrote:

PUP is like Albert Einstein. Everyone thinks it's retarded until someone shows it's true potential.
#65 Sep 22 2009 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
*
242 posts
1) Fishing Bots

2) Lack of party voice chat (up to at least six in a party) at launch of the game. People play with their friends when they play online games. Every other online game made for this generation of consoles is voice chat enabled. Why would SE wait until after the game's launch to implement voice chat? I don't ask for open linkshell chat, but to talk to maybe five or six friends about strategy, tips, among other bull.

3) Camping 24-72 hour spawn notorious monsters. It's not fun. I eventually got Argus's amulet, but I didn't enjoy wasting three weeks of my life to get it. I would have preferred a lengthy, well written quest, where the reward was the amulet and story content.

4) SE customer service needs to improve greatly. Legitimate players, who play by the rules, should never be banned.





____________________________
Character name: Undecided
Race: Lalafell
Nation: Gridania
Armoury: Desciple of Magic/Land/Hand
PS3 user
PSN: TheJollyJokers
XBOX Live: TheJollyJokers
#66 Sep 23 2009 at 12:07 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
17 posts
I agree with most of what's been said.

I'd like to see better game controls and the ability to change all my settings in game, rather than having to use a config program that lacks explanations of what the settings do. It's funny, I've tried to pick the game back up a couple of times now since I quit 4 or so years ago. But after a day or two, I quit again, partially for this reason. I'm annoyed by the hassle.
#67 Sep 23 2009 at 9:16 AM Rating: Default
***
1,353 posts
Quote:
Thats retarded. Let me explain why that is retarded. You're devoting that much time so such a minimal increase, yet it is required to be accepted into the 'upper level' group. That just isnt fun! A video game is supposed to be fun. If you were devoting that much time with an entire guild for progression (minus the gil) then fine, that makes sense. But simply farming, camping and grinding away? Give me a farking break.

I dont like to throw around the world elitism and elitist as such things are inherently good. Everyone should be an elitist, that simply means striving to be the best. Its when the people take it to the next level and exclude people who haven't (read: cannot) devote the EXCESSIVE amount of time they have, when things become problematic.

Back in the day when gil farmers were on the rise a haub could cost around 2-3 mil. This was when I dedicated most of my time to the game AND read up enough to knew it was EXPECTED I have that item. So I toughed through it and farmed it. Now that I have a job, I simply could not do that. I would not and will not play a game that means I have to realistically take two weeks off and farm for ONE item.

SE wants this game to attract more then just a kids who skip school to play games, thats why they're moving away from the crazy hardcore kill someone over hacking your account group, and moving a little more towards the 'casual' side.

That was a little rantish, so sorry about that. TL;DR, Grinding for 12 hours for +2 stats bad, having fun is good.
So, what this is about is people that used to be 1337 but now have jobs still want to be 1337 in the next game. Okay.

This whole +2 stat thing is starting to annoy me. What you're really saying is +14 or whatever. It's just that the other option is +12. Somehow, that makes the better gear only give +2. I don't particularly understand this logic, but whatever. You can't just settle for +12? You have to have that +14?

I don't think you understood me when I said "the best." See, "the best" isn't always about the best gear. There is strategy involved in the game, too. When I said about putting in 12hours + 30 million, I didn't mean that all the best gear should take that. I meant that there are going to be people putting in that much time, and they will have better stuff than you. Are you saying you think people who play all the time shouldn't have content designed for them? Are you saying it should be harder content with equal reward? Are you saying people shouldn't play more than you? I'm honestly looking for an answer to these questions.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#68 Sep 23 2009 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
People shouldn't play video games for that long, no. Basically without exception. It's not healthy to be that dedicated to a game.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#69 Sep 23 2009 at 10:22 AM Rating: Excellent
**
736 posts

You seem to be under the mistaken impression min/maxers enjoy ******* their time away.
They don't want to deal with timesinks any more than your average player does, they're just much more likely to put up with it.




#70 Sep 23 2009 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
You're not talking to me, right?
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#71 Sep 23 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
**
736 posts


Sorry. I should've quoted.
I meant that in response to TheShadowWalker's post.
#72 Sep 23 2009 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
285 posts
TheShadowWalker wrote:
Paraphrased: I dont read other peoples posts very well.


I said I farmed up the expensive *** hauby of the olden days because I was EXPECTED to have it. Just like I was EXPECTED to have a Hagun. Jesus christ no I didn't want to. I'm saying content shouldnt be developed for ONLY people with great deals more time then the average folk. And I use the +2 as an example. Like Accuracy rings which used to go for 2-3 mil a piece. More then +2 yes, but I was hoping I would get the point across without having to type this.

And yes, in FFXI the best meant the people with the best gear. Plain and simple. The best gear required the most time.

edit: Pretty much what zemzelette said.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2009 6:19pm by shaani
____________________________
Shaani - Cait sith
75 Samurai
Other crap that isnt 75

Morente wrote:

PUP is like Albert Einstein. Everyone thinks it's retarded until someone shows it's true potential.
#73 Sep 23 2009 at 7:09 PM Rating: Default
***
1,353 posts
Quote:


I said I farmed up the expensive *** hauby of the olden days because I was EXPECTED to have it. Just like I was EXPECTED to have a Hagun. Jesus christ no I didn't want to. I'm saying content shouldnt be developed for ONLY people with great deals more time then the average folk. And I use the +2 as an example. Like Accuracy rings which used to go for 2-3 mil a piece. More then +2 yes, but I was hoping I would get the point across without having to type this.

And yes, in FFXI the best meant the people with the best gear. Plain and simple. The best gear required the most time.

You expect it to require the least time?

I think it's funny that you're estranging a pretty large player base because you want to have the best stuff in the game.

I really do understand where your argument is coming from. However, as someone who enjoys spending a lot of time playing, I'd like to see some content for myself and others that have similar wants and not some ******** content that is as good as something much easier to get.

It's interesting how you say playing something so much is unhealthy. If someone enjoys it what's wrong with that?
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#74 Sep 23 2009 at 7:11 PM Rating: Default
***
1,353 posts
Quote:
You seem to be under the mistaken impression min/maxers enjoy ******* their time away.
They don't want to deal with timesinks any more than your average player does, they're just much more likely to put up with it.
Well your "timesinks" might be my adventure. In fact, they probably are. I don't see why there's even an argument for "Well, I don't like it and I don't think you should like it... so, they shouldn't put it in the game."
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#75 Sep 23 2009 at 9:48 PM Rating: Excellent
**
736 posts
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, and say you might not have a very clear defintion of what a timesink is, or rather how people typically use the term. A timesink is a waiting period added by developers between bits of content to make the game seem longer. People argue alot over what qualifies as a timesink, but it's generally characterized as being eventless and/or repetitive in a way that's boring or frustrating. Nobody uses the word Timesink in a good way, it's always used to describe something bad.

While we may argue over where the line in the sand is drawn specifically, there are some time-oriented things the majority of people don't like. Most people agree that they don't like waiting until JP Midnight, but people will debate endlessly on whether or not Levelling takes too long. The timesinks the majority doesn't like are the most profitable to get rid of, even if there is one or two people who really enjoy it. This is because businesses will never try to satisfy the minority of their demographic at the expense of majority of their demographic.

Whether or not that's 'fair' in a more esoteric sense of justice is not something I'm really interested in debating.







Edited, Sep 24th 2009 1:50am by Zemzelette
#76 Sep 23 2009 at 11:11 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
349 posts
My idea of adventure is certainly not sitting around for 6-12 hours waiting for a spawn to camp. I call that boring. I'd spend that time running a raid or dungeon. I think most people in this thread have been arguing against useless things like sitting around for 6-12 hours to have a chance of being the group that tags a spawn to have a 1/100 chance your item will drop and then maybe you'll win that roll against the other 18 people in your group. Most of us would rather spend that time actually playing the game to get the gear instead of sitting around hoping for a chance to play mmo roulette.
____________________________
That was no hemroid doctor. That was an alien hoobajoob
#77 Sep 24 2009 at 4:23 AM Rating: Default
***
1,353 posts
Then go do that. No one forced you to camp NMs in FFXI. There was plenty of other content available. Stop pretending that FFXI was grinding > HNMs > End of game. "I'd rather be going this!" What kind of fool sits around doing something they hate?

Quote:
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, and say you might not have a very clear defintion of what a timesink is, or rather how people typically use the term. A timesink is a waiting period added by developers between bits of content to make the game seem longer. People argue alot over what qualifies as a timesink, but it's generally characterized as being eventless and/or repetitive in a way that's boring or frustrating. Nobody uses the word Timesink in a good way, it's always used to describe something bad.


No... I know exactly what a timesink is. I'm not sure how you're definition would make my post about timesinks make me seem like I don't know what they are..?? I don't find these things negative. That's why I don't consider them timesinks. I thought that was obvious since we both clearly know they take up lots of time.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#78 Sep 24 2009 at 8:06 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
828 posts
TheShadowWalker wrote:

You expect it to require the least time?

I think it's funny that you're estranging a pretty large player base because you want to have the best stuff in the game.

I really do understand where your argument is coming from. However, as someone who enjoys spending a lot of time playing, I'd like to see some content for myself and others that have similar wants and not some bullsh*t content that is as good as something much easier to get.

It's interesting how you say playing something so much is unhealthy. If someone enjoys it what's wrong with that?


i dont think anyone has said the best stuff should be easy to get, that kind of undervalues it all, the general consensus is the best stuff should be obtainable by EVERYONE who is prepared to put in the effort to get it. if for example it takes you 100 hours of hard work to get that godly item then it shouldn't matter if it takes you 4 days playing for 24 hours a day or 100 days playing for 1 hour a day. you still have to do exactly the same stuff to get it but it should be structured in such a way that you can make progress at whatever pace your comfortable with,

my earlier example of the evokers ring for a summoner its the best ring available.takes a lot of work to get it, lets say for example person a plays alot he could probably do all 7 parts of that quest in a day. however person b is in school and maybe he can only play on the weekends or something thus he might only do 1 part of that quest each weekend and it'd take him 7 weeks to finish, either way both people worked hard and put in the effort to get the ring so they both deserve it.

or other examples include the mini expansions, you could blitz them in a day get your armor or like me just casually work through them as and when i got the time to do so. if it takes me another 2 months or so to finish acp does that mean i dont deserve to get the reward cos you blitzed it in a day? i dont think so, if i finish i will have done exactly the same quests and fights that you did so **** id have as much right to the reward at the end of it.

i've spent quite alot of time playing xi in 3.5 years my main charactors playtime is a few hours short of 289 days. in my opinion thats a lot of gaming time. but i know people that have almost doubled that, but either way i'd say i am or have been a fairly active part of that "pretty large player base" and to me one of the best things in the game is limbus, it's fun, it's fast and it doesnt take all night to do. salvage/einherjar is the same.

Edited, Sep 24th 2009 12:16pm by Dzian
____________________________


#79 Sep 24 2009 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
45 posts
Getting back on topic...

What I want to see left behind is anywhere that you're forced to choose between doing something interesting, and getting what you want.

Fishing, playing mini-games, farming easy mobs for hours in order to earn a few thousand gil... Not fun.
Sitting in a city for three hours waiting for a group to earn a quarter level... Not fun.
Fishing, playing mini-games, farming easy mobs... while waiting for a group. Better.

Levelling up solo, running into somebody else, making a new friend, and then levelling up faster... Oh, gee, that sounds like fun. :)

Multiple ways to achieve the gear and items needed to be considered a "good" player. Quite pleasant. Really hoping that making crafting and farming actual jobs will mean different classes will feed off each other. IE. An archer can either purchase their arrows off other people, or go collect the supplies and have someone craft them, or purchase the supplies and craft themselves, or do it all themselves and save a ton of money.

And what if a fighter could either go beat a tough boss... or level up their blacksmithing skill and make a comparable item?

It's not impossible, it just takes work and experimentation to get the right balance. And it CAN be done so that players can enjoy the experience, as long as they go with what is most tailored to their play style.

And then, if you really want to experience the content but don't enjoy the stress of fighting something that far above your gear-level, you can spend the same time and effort preparing yourself and enjoy the content instead of the challenge.

Also, drops. Let's just skip the "I have to kill this monster dozens of times in order to reliably get the 6% drop rate item", when... why is a little lizard wearing boots? Make it something like a bounty - either somebody somewhere wants the thing dead, or the thing has special properties (a horn, tough hide) that some NPC can convert into an item. You could even have a choice, a la Chrono Trigger's Rainbow Shell. ("I can turn this lizard hide into really springy boots, or a special shield that's really defensive, or a hide-wrapped staff that channels lightning energy well.")
____________________________
d'Jang'ai'alarion
#80 Sep 24 2009 at 8:49 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Well your "timesinks" might be my adventure. In fact, they probably are.
I'll sell you a bucket of paint for 14$ a month and you can watch it dry.



on topic: fixed low drop rates that can lead to ridiculous periods hunting X NM for nothing-> add a system that increases drop rates based on # kills (at least for r/e NMs, but it would make sense for other stuff as well, the more you kill a type of mob, the better you should get at taking it out without damaging it's horns or w/e)
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#81 Sep 24 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:

It's interesting how you say playing something so much is unhealthy. If someone enjoys it what's wrong with that?


Maybe spend some of your endless free time looking up the detriments to a sedentary lifestyle? And that's just a start-- there are a large number of other personal and social consequences to playing for several hours a day.

And by all means if you do have that much time to legitimately play without consequence, then do so. Play FFXI, which caters to that kind of endless free time. Or play two or three different games. But don't wish that on the next MMO.

Quote:
Then go do that. No one forced you to camp NMs in FFXI. There was plenty of other content available. Stop pretending that FFXI was grinding > HNMs > End of game. "I'd rather be going this!"


Uh, there was limited non-timesink content, like missions for example. Once you finish them, you're mostly left with timesink stuff, usually timesinks that are mandatory if you want to progress your character. There weren't really a variety of ways to reach your goals. You usually only had a couple, and they tended to both be boring.

Quote:
What kind of fool sits around doing something they hate?


A fairly large percentage of the current player base. There's a little thing called delay of gratification which allows them to do that. Unfortunately, when you have a completionist compulsion like probably most of the remaining players of XI do, it becomes a very unhealthy manifestation of that ability. Your ability to properly measure the reward of an activity in context to the amount of effort it requires is lost, and you end up doing things you don't really enjoy for rewards you end up not enjoying nearly as much as you thought you would. You end up thinking that you've been enjoying yourself in retrospect, but if you were to watch, say, a video of yourself playing, it would be obvious that you weren't actually enjoying it. Which might not be so bad if it were something more productive.

Have you ever seen the show Monk? It's kind of like that. The game is full of little Monk's (except without the crime-solving talent).
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#82 Sep 24 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Default
***
1,353 posts
Quote:


i dont think anyone has said the best stuff should be easy to get, that kind of undervalues it all, the general consensus is the best stuff should be obtainable by EVERYONE who is prepared to put in the effort to get it. if for example it takes you 100 hours of hard work to get that godly item then it shouldn't matter if it takes you 4 days playing for 24 hours a day or 100 days playing for 1 hour a day. you still have to do exactly the same stuff to get it but it should be structured in such a way that you can make progress at whatever pace your comfortable with,

my earlier example of the evokers ring for a summoner its the best ring available.takes a lot of work to get it, lets say for example person a plays alot he could probably do all 7 parts of that quest in a day. however person b is in school and maybe he can only play on the weekends or something thus he might only do 1 part of that quest each weekend and it'd take him 7 weeks to finish, either way both people worked hard and put in the effort to get the ring so they both deserve it.

or other examples include the mini expansions, you could blitz them in a day get your armor or like me just casually work through them as and when i got the time to do so. if it takes me another 2 months or so to finish acp does that mean i dont deserve to get the reward cos you blitzed it in a day? i dont think so, if i finish i will have done exactly the same quests and fights that you did so **** id have as much right to the reward at the end of it.

i've spent quite alot of time playing xi in 3.5 years my main charactors playtime is a few hours short of 289 days. in my opinion thats a lot of gaming time. but i know people that have almost doubled that, but either way i'd say i am or have been a fairly active part of that "pretty large player base" and to me one of the best things in the game is limbus, it's fun, it's fast and it doesnt take all night to do. salvage/einherjar is the same.
I completely agree. If I implied that you should have to play continuously, I didn't mean it.

Quote:


Uh, there was limited non-timesink content, like missions for example. Once you finish them, you're mostly left with timesink stuff, usually timesinks that are mandatory if you want to progress your character. There weren't really a variety of ways to reach your goals. You usually only had a couple, and they tended to both be boring.
I'd agree there's limited non-timesink content, because you really can't have unlimited content. However, I wonder how many people complaining about timesinks actually finished every mission. Because.. now, I haven't played in a while, but Zilart + CoP missions + AU missions took A LONG time to do. I suppose in the years since, most people have finished them and I think more content should be created. However, that doesn't mean they should take away content like long spawn window NMs.

Look, I agree with you to a point. I definitely think there should be more "adventuring" content and more engaging things to do. HOWEVER, why does it matter to you (assuming this new awesome content is added), if there is a 50 hour spawn window on a MOB 15 zones away and 40 levels below you, with an item you don't even want? The idea of an epic monster fight where other players were part of the competition is very enjoyable to me. I also enjoy raiding and that sort of thing.

If they have comparable reward, I don't see the problem. Only thing is, comparable isn't enough to people. They want THE BEST. If they LOVE questing and HATE camping NMs they will camp that NM day in and day out to get +1 to attack and look 1337, ******** the entire time. I really don't think this is a flaw in the game mechanic.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#83 Sep 24 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Default
***
1,353 posts
Quote:



on topic: fixed low drop rates that can lead to ridiculous periods hunting X NM for nothing-> add a system that increases drop rates based on # kills (at least for r/e NMs, but it would make sense for other stuff as well, the more you kill a type of mob, the better you should get at taking it out without damaging it's horns or w/e)
good idea, but it should reset after you get the drop. I think we all know what would happen after someone beat an NM 50 times and has a 100% drop rate. "/sh Will kill XXXX for XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXgil. killed 50 times. have gotten 30 drops." and you just get even more "big business" competition and it snuffs out the little guy that wants to hunt himself.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#84 Sep 24 2009 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
I thought I'd already posted it... but:

Subligars

and

NMs with ridiculous spawn requirements like Noble Mold (2 week IRL respawn, 2-3 day spawn window, if placeholder or NM dies, spawn timer resets to 24 hours, if the 24 hour period ends OUTSIDE the spawn window, wait another 2 weeks... only spawns during rain from water weather, not rain during thunder weather, only has one placeholder among two possibilities that spawn next to each other in a tiny area) having a really low drop rate. The worst part is... jerks always kill the placeholders to set the spawn to a time of their liking... often without realizing it'll actually set the timer outside the window...

Edited, Sep 24th 2009 3:19pm by LadyOfHolyDarkness
#85 Sep 24 2009 at 1:39 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,159 posts
Large zones with nothing to do in except cross to get to the next large and empty zone.

Slow combat. If you play FFXI after playing any other MMO out there you feel like your character is moving through molasses.

Excessive use of cooldowns and animations that cripple your character.

Storyline being is few and far in between. The main reason I play games these days is to experience the storyline. I don't want to play a game where I take a mission, finish it and then have to go grind 20 levels before I get to do the next mission.
#86 Sep 24 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Excellent
tSW wrote:
I'd agree there's limited non-timesink content, because you really can't have unlimited content. However, I wonder how many people complaining about timesinks actually finished every mission. Because.. now, I haven't played in a while, but Zilart + CoP missions + AU missions took A LONG time to do. I suppose in the years since, most people have finished them and I think more content should be created. However, that doesn't mean they should take away content like long spawn window NMs.

Look, I agree with you to a point. I definitely think there should be more "adventuring" content and more engaging things to do. HOWEVER, why does it matter to you (assuming this new awesome content is added), if there is a 50 hour spawn window on a MOB 15 zones away and 40 levels below you, with an item you don't even want? The idea of an epic monster fight where other players were part of the competition is very enjoyable to me. I also enjoy raiding and that sort of thing.

If they have comparable reward, I don't see the problem. Only thing is, comparable isn't enough to people. They want THE BEST. If they LOVE questing and HATE camping NMs they will camp that NM day in and day out to get +1 to attack and look 1337, ******** the entire time. I really don't think this is a flaw in the game mechanic.
If you look at SE's progression as from expansion to expansion, and their responses to interviews it seems pretty obvious that they want to get away from long-spawn NMs with "the best" rewards and cater to raid/story/etc content. There are several very good reasons for them to do this:

1) It's frustratingly boring. While sitting around staring at blank space waiting for placeholders or w/e the player has plenty of non-engauged time to ask "why the **** am I wasting time on this" and quit. I know a dozen people that left the game because they got fed up with camping w/e.

2) (in FFXI at least) the rare spawn items weren't just "slightly" better, they were massive improvements on the other options. Recently the game has gotten a bit better w/ more variety, but there are still many "best in slots" that require ridiculous spawns.

3) The majority of the player base hates camping long spawn/drop rate NMs (which should be obvious just from this thread). You may "enjoy" camping, but you also enjoy other activities. How many people do you know that only enjoy camping NMs and hate everything else?

4) It's the most RMT exploitable activity in FFXI. This combined with the relative worth and price manipulation caused the greatest amount of grief over RMTs and started the current witch hunt.

5) It sets up a bad social environment. When you have group related content there is a sense of group accomplishment when you win a battle and usually you or someone you like gets a reward. There is a sense of "fairness" in the drops and a feeling that if you keep attending w/e activity you'll eventually get what you want. Camping however, you could get screwed over and over again indefinitely by botter #5234. This kind of competition tends to just breed resentment between players, and there is no sense of "group accomplishment" only 0-1 people get "rewarded" and the rest just leave ****** off.

6) It tends to ***** over a large portion of the playerbase that have RL. You can get people together for assaults or salvage or w/e and complete them in a reasonable amount of time. Camping 24hr 3-4 hour window NMs (especially land HNM that take multiple people and a decent chunk of time) is just not an option for people that can't play for 5-6hrs straight (much less weeks in a row, esp with shifting windows) b/c of other commitments.

Edited, Sep 24th 2009 7:43pm by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#87 Sep 24 2009 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
**
736 posts
If you had thought Timesink was a nuetral thing, I could've understood why you were under the impression SE was free to satisfy the minority and add them to their new game free of consequence. But, if you agree that Timesink is a dirty word, then your aware the majority is not neutral but rather actively opposed. No corporation is willing to satisfy the minority of their demographic at the expense of a majority of their demographic.


Quote:
If they have comparable reward, I don't see the problem. Only thing is, comparable isn't enough to people. They want THE BEST. If they LOVE questing and HATE camping NMs they will camp that NM day in and day out to get +1 to attack and look 1337, ******** the entire time. I really don't think this is a flaw in the game mechanic.


The problem isn't that you want to have NMs, it's that you seem to want NMs to have the best loot which necessitates unreasonable timers.

Effort and Time have to see a proportional reward. The stronger the mob the better the prize, the longer the fight the better the prize, the longer you have to wait between fights the better the prize. Having something spawn on a timer is a type of the latter. The better the prize is, the longer the wait for the NM has to be.

When this comes into conflict with the approaching casual era you say: Too bad, so sad.

But, there's another option. NMs can be on somewhat reasonable spawn timers, and predictably the prize would only be exactly on par with crafted equipment. This keeps crafting relevant, preserves the sense of competition your arguing for, and makes sure the min/maxing demographic isn't forced into NM Hunting. Not to mention, it removes a pivotal lynchpin in FFXI's most awful association, that the Elite are not creatures of Skill but just people with Time.




Edited, Sep 24th 2009 8:44pm by Zemzelette
#88 Sep 24 2009 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
if there is a 50 hour spawn window on a MOB 15 zones away and 40 levels below you, with an item you don't even want?


Well, I still wouldn't want that because I have friends both in game and in real life who might want that item, and it would be completely inaccessible to them. Unfortunately, there are many cases in XI where it's not an item that I don't even want-- there are several that I do, which are still out of reach.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#89 Sep 24 2009 at 7:33 PM Rating: Default
***
1,353 posts
You all bring up good points. I think what it comes down to is that I'm looking at this from the perspective that items weren't put in the game for everyone to have. If more than 10% of a certain class/job have an item, there should be a more rare, better item available. It's a different perspective. For example, I also believe that A's should not be available to everyone in a class in college. If more than 15% of the students have an A, that class needs to be harder (the opposite is also true).

NMs with long spawn windows are really one of the only ways to regulate how many of a certain item there is in the game at a time. Since quests (especially those crap instance ones everyone seems to want) are able to be run parallel, it's conceivable for everyone in the game, at a certain level, to be getting an omgwtfbbq item at the same time. NMs throttle that by saying. "Okay, well the max number of items is the max number of spawns (assuming an instant kill for every spawn) since the game has been made, times the drop rate." For ultra long ones, this means there may only be 3 of the item on the server. I find this idea attractive, but then again I am not an equal opportunity game designer and this is why I am not a game designer at all (well, that and lack of any discernible game design skills).
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#90 Sep 24 2009 at 8:07 PM Rating: Good
tSW wrote:
NMs with long spawn windows are really one of the only ways to regulate how many of a certain item there is in the game at a time.
but they're one of the least creative, least fun, most rage inducing ways.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#91 Sep 24 2009 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good
LadyOfHolyDarkness, Eater of Souls wrote:
I thought I'd already posted it... but:

Subligars


Screenshot


For your viewing pleasure. Smiley: tongue
____________________________
FFXI-Garuda 2003-2009; Lakshmi 2011-8/20/13 (retired)
FFXIV: ARR - Ghost Bear, Balmung server
#92 Sep 24 2009 at 10:52 PM Rating: Good
That could be worse... there used to be this Elvaan named Moulder on Phoenix. He'd stand by the AH in upper Jeuno all day long wearing one of those lacy subligars and nothing else. Personall, I think it looks worse on Elvaan males than Galka.

I'll see your
Screenshot

and raise you a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH_ILV1zGGk
#93 Sep 25 2009 at 6:53 AM Rating: Default
45 posts
Sorry to be the jerk that sticks the fork in your gears...

You guys mind taking the "timesink" / "best way to limit/encourage" discussion into a thread with that subject?

I'm really interested in what people had in FFXI that they'd like to see left behind, and it's a bit of a disappointment to read an entire post just to realize it's about a different topic. ;)

By the way, I'll second the motion about subligars. <Chastity Belt> <No thank you>

Edited, Sep 25th 2009 10:53am by homeschoolzam
____________________________
d'Jang'ai'alarion
#94 Sep 25 2009 at 11:55 AM Rating: Default
***
1,353 posts
@_@ This isn't a thread for discussion? You should have posted that, then.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#95 Sep 25 2009 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
349 posts
Its not a different topic. Obviously the ridiculous time sinks are what most people want to see left behind. The fact that this thread has a page dedicated to it is proof that its probably the single biggest thing people want left behind. I think that's fairly relevant.

Edited, Sep 25th 2009 4:01pm by mezlabor
____________________________
That was no hemroid doctor. That was an alien hoobajoob
#96 Sep 25 2009 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,010 posts
TheShadowWalker wrote:

You all bring up good points. I think what it comes down to is that I'm looking at this from the perspective that items weren't put in the game for everyone to have.


Here's my issue with your statement and specifically as it pertains to XI: There should never be items in a game that were only meant for people who don't have jobs or other obligations that would cause you to miss a spawn window. It's a tactic that only serves to frustrate people and while it did take SE years to see it, at least they are now armed with a better understanding of what players want.

The best and most rare items should be the result of the skilled execution of a task by a player. What I mean specifically, is a player should win a difficult battle, solve a difficult quest, or some other test that is directly related to that player's skill at the game. While it is somewhat admirable in a perverse sort of way, sitting at your computer screen looking at the landscape for 12+ hours and hitting a macro does not really qualify as "skill".

#97 Sep 25 2009 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
EpedemicOptikz wrote:
12-36 hour spawns, or anything with a greater than 3 hour window.


^ A zillion times this
#98 Sep 25 2009 at 10:03 PM Rating: Default
7 posts
I wasn't going to post but after reading all these posts. I couldn't resist...
OK, in regards to the whole "time sink" issue, YES I agree, there are times FFXI is played with your head on the table, and your hand on the mouse. Yet in regards to the whole "you should NEVER have to play a game that long for gear that's great" I argue.
As an example, another hobby I have is painting, I'll work on a piece for HOURS on end, working and working and working, only to finish the piece, enjoy the results, and set it aside so i can work on my next piece.

Please tell me that THAT'S not a time sink similar to getting great gear? their both something done for aesthetic results, and great things take patience... The Mona Lisa took over 3 years to paint. It's still just a picture.
#99 Sep 25 2009 at 10:25 PM Rating: Excellent
**
736 posts


Quote:
Please tell me that THAT'S not a time sink similar to getting great gear?


That's not a timesink similar to getting great gear.
#100 Sep 25 2009 at 10:26 PM Rating: Default
7 posts
Good thoughts. Thank you.^
#101 Sep 25 2009 at 10:47 PM Rating: Excellent
**
736 posts
;p
I'll elaborate.

I was just a little tweaked because my bread and butter craft was (unintentionally) insulted.

There's so much more value in honing your craft as an artist than waiting for a monster to spawn in a videogame. These things may both be your hobby, but that doesn't mean they have the same weight in society, or even the same impact on you.



This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 22 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (22)