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Solutions to RMT ProblemFollow

#1 Sep 21 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I've noticed that a lot of people's imaginations are being limited by the RMT problem. Whenever an idea comes up generally the common response is "RMT will exploit it" or some such nonsense. Though I personally believe RMT is less of a problem than most people think it seems to be a on the forefront of people's minds so I decided to put together a few ideas directed at lessening the number of RMT running around ruining everyone's afternoons. Now, bear in mind we probably will never rid ourselves of RMT as long as a game has need for currency. Also, I'm not completely sure SE wants to get rid of RMT in the first place considering that it gains a good deal of money from RMT accounts. Anyway, my ideas are all fairly easy to accomplish and require little manpower.


1. Contact google and other search engines and ask them to remove RMT related websites from their search engines. This is a common practice in other markets such as blogging. If a blog has plaguerized another blog the offended party can contact google and have their website removed from the search engine.

2. Contact fan sites and require them to remove ads that promote gil-selling in their ad service. This is probably one of the major sources buyers find RMT sites. Remove this and buyers wont be able to find where to buy gil.

3. Have GMs monitor chat channels in major cities and remove anyone advertising RMT sites.

4. Create an easy way for people to report RMT spams. In WoW this is easily done by right clicking on the name and selecting "report spam". It also puts the person on a short black-list, removing your ability to see anything that person writes for a period of time.

These ideas are basically designed to eliminate the buyer from the RMT equation though it also helps in eliminating random players from selling their gil/accounts as they wont be able to see where to do it. Without anyone to buy gil, like any business it goes under.

I have a few ideas concerning the means the RMT have of obtaining gil but they are, generally, more costly and less effective:

1. Create a program much like google earth but allows you to monitor a server in real time (maybe this is commonly done...I don't know). This way you can zoom into an area that has known RMT activity (think the boats in FFXI...they always had a bunch of obviously RMT fishermen there) and monitor the actions of people there. This can only eliminate bots and the like.

2. Use a pan-server AH system, linking the AH from every server to equalize the prices of items in every server. This has been discussed before and I like the idea. It will lessen the ability of RMT from manipulating the market. Yes, this will help...it's basic economics, please don't discuss it excessively here...dredge up the last thread about it if you want.


There also has to be absolutely zero tolerance in gil buying/selling. If anyone is caught doing it (not suspected, but caught) the account must be deleted and a ban placed on the credit card. Make this widely known to discourage the activity.

I also have one last idea that most people might not like. Make gil-selling official. EVE Online has things called plex that are basically one-month subscriptions turned into in-game items. You can sell these items in the market. It pretty much makes buying isk (the in-game currency) anywhere else kind of silly since this way it's 100% safe and still fairly cheap, though dependent on the market price for the items.
#2 Sep 21 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's also worth noting that RMT were SUCH a problem in FFXI because content was so easy to monopolize. Most people weren't infuriated by the general deleterious effects of RMT so much as the fact that they were frequently in direct competition with RMT over content that they had no other means of access to.

And emphasizing instanced content solves A LOT of that problem, so I think the Guild Leve system alone with prevent RMT from wreaking utter havoc upon us, though they will still be a general nuisance. I doubt they'll be able to destroy XIV in the way they did to XI for so long.
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#3 Sep 21 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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I agree with Kachi, and I would like to expand.

I think the main focus shouldn't be how to prevent all RMTs sense that is impossible for any online game. I think the main focus should be how to develop a economy that RMT causes little impact to. Reason RMT effected FF11 so greatly was that FF11 had a very fragile economy which RMT had a extremely large impact on.
#4 Sep 21 2009 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Yog I belive you are pursuing the issue in a way that is wholely ineffective. Your first two suggestions rely on unorganized, unmotivated volunteers to take action they have no authority to carry out. Your second two suggestions rely on trying to police an issue that can't possibly be fully policed.

Mitsuuko is has a more effective solution, though I would word it differently. The game should be designed in such a way that there is very little incentive for players to engage in RMT. People stop acting illicitly on their own accord when it becomes inconvenient or less convenient for them to do so.
#5 Sep 21 2009 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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I liked what LOTRO did with putting limitations on trial accounts. You couldn't use the mailbox, auction house, or send whispers to people who didn't have you on their friends' list until you bought the subscription. If anything, it at least cut down on the spammers.
#6 Sep 21 2009 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Reason RMT effected FF11 so greatly was that FF11 had a very fragile economy which RMT had a extremely large impact on.

I agree with this because FFXI had to be the "hardest" (in terms of making gil) in all the games I have played. By hardest, I don't just mean difficulty in just gathering gil, but in all the gil-making methods.

From farming mobs, to drop rates and critical synth failures on items I should have a guaranteed NQ. Hakutaku Eye Cluster is a perfect example. RMT is bound to thrive in this environment. A happy medium in even one of these would make a significant difference in participation with RMT IMO.

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#7 Sep 21 2009 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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EVE brought currency sales in house. They offered Game time cards that could be bought and sold in game for in game cash. Allowing players the ability to either pay for the game with in game currency or purchase the GTC with irl money then sell it in game for in game currency.
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#8 Sep 21 2009 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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instanced content and bind on pickup items pretty much RAPE rmt.
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#9 Sep 21 2009 at 3:59 PM Rating: Default
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shaani wrote:
instanced content and bind on pickup items pretty much RAPE rmt.
^pretty much.
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#10 Sep 21 2009 at 5:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Shaani hit the nail on the head.

Instances and Bound items turn the RMT Mafia into a prostitution ring.
#11 Sep 21 2009 at 7:13 PM Rating: Decent
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But if they introduce this (which they should) it change alot of things with it. Do you think someone would spend 5M+ on a craft if someone could get Bound Equivalent item through instancing. By introducing instanced drops you also change crafting a great deal.

Edited, Sep 21st 2009 11:13pm by Mitsuuko
#12 Sep 21 2009 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes I do with Bind on Pickup recipies and items that bind to you when crafted. Not to throw WoW around but they did do quite well with their crafting system. I've love to see SE do something impressive and innovative with 14's and keep it RMT free so to speak while still making them a valuable thing to level up.
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#13 Sep 21 2009 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
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shaani wrote:
Yes I do with Bind on Pickup recipies and items that bind to you when crafted. Not to throw WoW around but they did do quite well with their crafting system. I've love to see SE do something impressive and innovative with 14's and keep it RMT free so to speak while still making them a valuable thing to level up.


That was mainly the point I was making. WoW and FF11 crafting system is night and day. WoW crafting is certainly good but does has it flaws. Especially with so many pointless gear. But with the whole skills in the weapons I think that can be greatly negated.
#14 Sep 21 2009 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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What with the tremendous amount of power crafters are reportedly capable of wielding (although god knows from the evidence or lack thereof we've actually been given to support SE's claim) I think any system seen so far to rein in RMT activities will fall short. Massive implementation of instancing and BoP are great ways to deny RMTs of their primary sources of revenue, but they cripple large scale crafting markets, due to the hit it causes to inter-character goods trade. This is more of a problem with Binding than instancing, since it is not too hard to implement instance dropped materials that counterbalance any of the lost trade instances might cause.

I have never played an MMO that has a crafting system as embedded into the core mechanic as the FFXIV one claims to be, but from what I hear a few systems come close, so perhaps someone can enlighten me. I feel, however, that crafting on this proposed scale will make dealing with RMTs a tricky business, and something that will require a bit of finesse. Too hard of a hand, and crafters will quickly become second class citizens; too weak, and RMT crafters will have the run of the market.

Even in a system where crafters can do things other than create pristinely new items, such as buffing already existing ones, or modding the appearance. It's extremely likely that someone will come along and make a business out of it. Which is probably a good thing, gil flow is almost never a bad thing. But where there is gil flow, there is the opportunity for RMT activities.

I suppose my final word is, without knowing how this new fangled crafting pans out, any projections on how to counter RMTs or how good/bad they will be has too many variables. We can examine systems that worked before i.e. BoP/BoE and instancing, micro-transaction, **** even our old friend rmtpwn1.773 technically worked it was just calibrated terribly and was way over zealous. But since all indications show that there will be a heavy trade (as in the job and the action) emphasis in this game when compared to FFXI, all bets are off for now on what will work for sure and what wont.
#15 Sep 21 2009 at 10:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Let's not confuse Bind on Pickup and Items that Bind.

When your talking about Items that Bind, it's largely an economic measure. It just means an item can only be worn by one person and can't be traded or sold. You can craft items that bind, and it's a fantastic way to keep the market from being over-saturated. Binding was started as an economic control, it was just a happy accident that it beat RMT black and blue. Bind on Pickup is usually referring to mob loot specifically, and in that sense people mean it as an Anti-RMT measure.


Quote:

Do you think someone would spend 5M+ on a craft if someone could get Bound Equivalent item through instancing.


If you want there to be instanced and crafting equivalents (which is not necessarily how MMOs have to handle that.)

The market eventually determines the worth of the item. If paying 1,000gil is alot easier than the Boss, they'll all pay the 1,000 gil and drive the price up. If paying 2,000 gil is alot harder than the Boss, nobody will pay the 2,000 gil and the price will drop. This works so long as SE is careful to make sure the cost/availability to the crafter is mostly balanced with the difficulty/availability/droprate of the Boss.












Edited, Sep 22nd 2009 2:24am by Zemzelette
#16 Sep 22 2009 at 6:38 AM Rating: Good
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Bind on pickup in no way has to negatively affect crafters. Crafters can still be vital aspects to the economy even if ALL the high end gear is bind on pickup.

1. Consumables. And that includes durability.

2. Customization. Crafters can change the effects, stats, and appearance of equipment.

All these things for money you can do.

The role of crafters in FFXI (primarily to produce HQs) was pretty much a hot mess. While it made it easy for some of us to make a lot of money, it was also one of the primary sources for needing all of that money.

Anyway, bind on pickup and a vibrant player economy can easily exist, but the economy would probably be less faceless. More often you'll be buying from someone that you meet with face to face than from a mystery man at the auction house.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#17 Sep 22 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Bind on pickup in no way has to negatively affect crafters. Crafters can still be vital aspects to the economy even if ALL the high end gear is bind on pickup.

1. Consumables. And that includes durability.

2. Customization. Crafters can change the effects, stats, and appearance of equipment.

All these things for money you can do.

The role of crafters in FFXI (primarily to produce HQs) was pretty much a hot mess. While it made it easy for some of us to make a lot of money, it was also one of the primary sources for needing all of that money.

Anyway, bind on pickup and a vibrant player economy can easily exist, but the economy would probably be less faceless. More often you'll be buying from someone that you meet with face to face than from a mystery man at the auction house.
WoW's take on this was rather genius, in the sense that every craft had a form of consumable. And they were also all vital parts of the gameplay experience. I'll go down the list.


Leatherworking:
Armor kits for legs, belts that were better than almost ALL of your dungeon drops. Armor kits were pretty much essential, and they were consumable enough due to how often people replace gear.
Inscription: They make glyphs, which enhance your character in some way. They utilize herbs, which are gathered, to make ink. Glyphs are consumable, and they are highly disposable because they are pretty much required by every single player.
Enchanting: Enchanting was always one of my favorites. Everything about enchanting is disposable. You enhance your gear and other people's gear by breaking down lower-quality gear for magical dust which could then be used to enhance other things. Enchants are such a huge part of just about every single character.
Jewelcrafting: Gems are very disposable, they're interchanged or replaced on a fairly regular basis. (Because you go through gear so often.) Also breaks down ore that are gathered through the mining profession via prospecting to obtain gems.
Alchemy: Potions, Elixirs, and other various consumables were actually useful in WoW, unlike XI, so Alchemy actually did something more than make Sneak Oil. Also uses herbs from gathering.
Blacksmithing: The only one I have a real gripe with. It was fairly useless for the most part, the only economic function it really had was making belt buckles, which allowed you to add another socket to your belt so that you could put an extra gem in your gear.
Tailoring: Tailoring was actually fairly underrated by most people. When paired with enchanting, you have an almost endless supply of gear that you can "disenchant" to get magic dust to enchant your gear. It also allowed you to craft some of the best robes, belts, and bracers in the game. Even better than raid drops.
Engineering: Is really the only craft in the game that is solely self gratifying. It had no real market value aside from a few obscure things, but it allowed you to do so many things for yourself. You could use an auction house in a city that otherwise didn't have one, it allows you to attach things to your gear to do various things. (Rocket boots, mind control cap, frag bombs on your belt, etc.) It also allowed the use of repair bots, which were portable vendors that sold various reagents and allowed you to repair your group's gear no matter where you were.
Fishing: Used in cooking, more entertaining than in XI, and far, FAR less prone to botting.
Cooking: Made consumables that are pretty much equivalent to your food buffs in XI. There's also the "feast" items which would feed an entire raid group, but the cost of making them was rather heavy.


And of course there's your Herb/Skinning/Mining, but those are all pretty self-explanatory. The point of all of this? Well, let's look at how useful most of these are as compared to XI's crafting system, which was pretty much either HQ or die. All of these have a demand that needs to be supplied, where in XI if you didn't get good R.N.G you were simply S.O.L. And most of them worked alongside the Bind on Pickup system, not against it, which is why they coincided so well. So those of you saying that the BoP system won't benefit the crafters are insane. It most certainly can.
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#18 Sep 22 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes BoP and crafting can go hand and hand. My only point was that crafting as it is now in FF11 could never survive with BoP. They would have to change it drastically.
#19Pluelf, Posted: Sep 22 2009 at 10:35 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Why would SE ever want to get rid of RMT, have you any idea how much business they provide?
#20 Sep 22 2009 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Pluelf wrote:
Why would SE ever want to get rid of RMT, have you any idea how much business they provide?


Because with China outlawing RMTing, square would be losing quite a bit more then they would be gaining. They also realize they had recieved a horribly bad rep from FFXI due to RMT among other things.

Lets not have the conspiracy theory's about SE wanting RMTs in their game k? k.
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#21 Sep 22 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Yes BoP and crafting can go hand and hand. My only point was that crafting as it is now in FF11 could never survive with BoP. They would have to change it drastically.


That's true, but let's pray to god that crafting in XIV is nothing like XI. And putting that aside, isn't crafting pretty much already dead in XI? A year ago I could barely make a fraction of the money that I used to. The market eventually became flooded with crafters, there weren't enough new synths in demand to keep up with the production rates, and eventually even niche markets got washed out. You'd have people destroy entire markets by undercutting beyond what could conceivably turn a profit. You'd literally have to flush markets by crashing them just to rebuild them after everyone left.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#22 Sep 22 2009 at 4:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I think everyone is misunderstanding my intention here. I'm trying to come up with solutions that wont impact the direction of the game. Implementing bind on pickup or bind on equip items is fighting RMTs in a way that changes the game.

It has also been overlooked when I said these aren't meant to rid ourselves of RMT because that will never happen unless there is no game economy but reduce their impact at a low cost.

For some reason I can't quote anything but in regards to what Allegory said about the first two not working because it has no authority I'm not sure if you understand what those in combination mean. The first one is a guarantee, you can go to the search engines and have websites removed from their lists...meaning you can't type in ffxi gil and have pages of sites trying to sell you gil. People do it all the time and is a big deterrent (especially for blogs since they make money from traffic). The only other ways to know where to go is from the ads on fan websites and from people spamming gil in game. SE can get fan websites taken off of google as well but if they really wanted to they could sue them if they don't drop the ads. After that it's simply a matter of cleaning up the game and getting rid of people shouting gil offers.

Most people are lazy; if they can't find an easy way to buy gil they wont bother. This will make it substantially harder to find gil sellers and I bet it would cut RMT sales in half, at least. To get it all the way down it would cause a bit more impact to the game and would cost a bit more money but it should be enough to remove a large portion of RMT influence in the market.
#23 Sep 22 2009 at 4:40 PM Rating: Good
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No matter what you do to fight RMT its going to have a impact. Even the simple fact of reducing the number of RMT has impact if you could just make them magically disapear. What you should strive for is to find a way to deal with them without having a negative impact (Mass Banning,economic disparities,limitations).

Even though BoP would have a effect, it seems like most people on here agree that it be a positive effect, with regards to RMT or not.
#24 Sep 23 2009 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
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Mitsuuko wrote:
No matter what you do to fight RMT its going to have a impact. Even the simple fact of reducing the number of RMT has impact if you could just make them magically disapear. What you should strive for is to find a way to deal with them without having a negative impact (Mass Banning,economic disparities,limitations).

Even though BoP would have a effect, it seems like most people on here agree that it be a positive effect, with regards to RMT or not.
Real money traders are practically non-existent in Warcraft. There are a few reasons why, most of it, I believe, has to do with daily quests. They serve a dual purpose; they're good for making money, and at the same time they offer reputation with factions that eventually have other things to offer you. Money is not hard to make in WoW if you simply set your mind to it, and therefore the vast majority of players simply don't even give RMT a second thought. And they really don't have enough of an impact on the economy or the raiding system to give anybody any grief, either.


It's also really hard for them to even advertise themselves, and you can tell, because lately they've gotten so desperate that they've actually taken to running TONS of level 1 characters into populated cities, and killing them all to spell out websites with the corpses. Like this.



However, I don't particularly care about RMT when talking about bind on pickup. It's a better system in general. Although it's effective as a means of combating real money trading, it's also a way of getting around the "omg this guy got a bunch of stuff from the linkshell and sold it all for money." I really can't stand that sh*t, and I know I'm not the only one. I have some other reasons, but I don't feel like going on a tangent.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2009 10:04am by Zackary
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#25 Sep 24 2009 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Wouldn't it be easier to just nuke China? And France as well as long as we have the nukes warmed up and ready to go.
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#26 Sep 24 2009 at 7:07 PM Rating: Default
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I think you should consider other things. When I quit 4 years ago. I gave my friends over 100mil gil split. When I came back I made a new account, to relearn the game before ffxiv starts. I didn't not sell any of my gold nor my account. Now friends of mine gave me alot of gil to help me to get back on my feet. I mean its less then the 100+mil i gave away. but its better than nothing. So shouldn't users get a trial first before SE notices a huge transfer of gil going through accounts. I mean I was a lvl 100 blacksmith and after that bloody tax increase in jeuno, it became too expensive to profit from the AH. So alot of us with either trade or delivery things worth 2-4 mil after synth.

I mean thats the problem with RMT also. They hide along side legitimate transactions. I mean SE did a good job with lowering the RMT. Its not an bad as it used to be 4 years ago. All MMORPG's with some kind of monetary system have issues with RMT. Games like Travian and Evony... are highly addictive browser based civilization games. The developers cut out the middle man. They personally sell the game cents to the player for real money. I mean they cost very very much with out much benefits.

Although we are in a new world and must adjust to it. SE can take hold of its players. PSN and XBL has been very successful with paid add-on content. (Heck I've bought so many LBP add-ons). RMT's will always be there, and I've had my battles with them. I was highly oppose to RMT's and Buyers and thought SE couldn't do anything right. Although over time, I've seen the market highly stable and the sellers at bay.

I think any member in suspicion of buying must be given a fair trial.
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#27 Sep 24 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
WoW's take on this was rather genius, in the sense that every craft had a form of consumable. And they were also all vital parts of the gameplay experience. I'll go down the list.


The crafting system was amazing in FFXI. even if I lost 5-10 mil in a single synth (which I have many times). It took time to master it. Learn the days of synth, the moon phases, the location to point at. The area to be at. It was all like clock work. In reality WoW crafting was too easy... it had no meaning and little application. I reached lvl 300 blacksmithing there also. It took me over a year and a half in ffxi playing ~40hrs a week to get lvl 100... and it took me around 6 months to get 300 blacksmithing in WoW... Although you basically couldn't profit much from it. More people would raid rather than craft.

I mean FFXI had a system where you could either craft or level up. Back when there wasn't any level sync or field of valor. We had a few choices to balance the game. My real life friends would level up and I would craft. By the time they all hit lvl 75. I was only ~60. Although my black smithing was ~80. They had taken many jobs to level 75, but I have yet to take one. For over 1 and a half years I farmed and sold items on the AH to increase my craft. It took real work, and I think it should offer real benefits.
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#28 Sep 26 2009 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Learn the days of synth, the moon phases, the location to point at.


Except none of those things actually mattered -_- They were just theorycrafting that eventually people accepted as truth.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#29 Sep 27 2009 at 5:36 AM Rating: Good
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Im with EliteDW for the most part on crafting. I do believe the highest levels of crafting should take real effort and a good deal of time to get to, if only so that it actually means something. Even now smithing 100 is a pretty big feat. It would be nice for crafting to be a bit more straightforward and have a path to make at least some money skilling (or it seems leveling as a job?) 1 to max skill. Relying less on farmer's whims would be nice too, but farmers have to make money too I guess....

As far as RMT, even R/E doesn't really fix the issue. How many shells on your server sell Hecatomb, Aurum, Nyzul mercing services and so on? I have a friend that sells Joyeuse killing services for major gil. You can get R/E with gil as easily as you can get rare gear off the AH. Just check ffxiah to find a handful of people selling what you want on your server.
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#30 Sep 27 2009 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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EliteDW wrote:
Quote:
WoW's take on this was rather genius, in the sense that every craft had a form of consumable. And they were also all vital parts of the gameplay experience. I'll go down the list.


The crafting system was amazing in FFXI. even if I lost 5-10 mil in a single synth (which I have many times). It took time to master it. Learn the days of synth, the moon phases, the location to point at. The area to be at. It was all like clock work. In reality WoW crafting was too easy... it had no meaning and little application. I reached lvl 300 blacksmithing there also. It took me over a year and a half in ffxi playing ~40hrs a week to get lvl 100... and it took me around 6 months to get 300 blacksmithing in WoW... Although you basically couldn't profit much from it. More people would raid rather than craft.

I mean FFXI had a system where you could either craft or level up. Back when there wasn't any level sync or field of valor. We had a few choices to balance the game. My real life friends would level up and I would craft. By the time they all hit lvl 75. I was only ~60. Although my black smithing was ~80. They had taken many jobs to level 75, but I have yet to take one. For over 1 and a half years I farmed and sold items on the AH to increase my craft. It took real work, and I think it should offer real benefits.
Yeah, because WoW's crafting is part of the gameplay experience, not an excruciatingly frustrating (And often worthless) timesink to get you to waste even more time on their game.


And this is coming from someone who had a 100+3 and 3 60 crafts. Yeah, it was idiotic.
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#31 Sep 27 2009 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
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Learn the days of synth, the moon phases, the location to point at.


Except none of those things actually mattered -_- They were just theorycrafting that eventually people accepted as truth.
Much like the theories of them not mattering that eventually people accepted as truth. Works both ways. That's a theory for you, and unfortunately we will never know what is fact until SE decides to tell us. As long as they smile and keep their mouths shut, it can go either way. I do think it's safe to say that if there's more to it, it makes very little difference. So little it's unnoticeable, in which case it might as well not be there.
#32 Sep 27 2009 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Except that people like myself have actually tested it and found that they don't matter. At least there is no statistically significant effect. I assure you, I was once very active in the tradeskill forum, and theories about day/moon/direction have been there since very early in the game's life. There was never a time early in the game's life that people were denouncing the idea that these things didn't matter, whether because of bad guides from JP sites, falsified data, or just because it made too much sense to be wrong.

SE doesn't really need to say anything. People figured out how damage works, hate works, etc. without any help from them.
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#33 Sep 27 2009 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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There is nothing anyone can do to stop the RMT problem. There are temporary solutions but they will be circumvented with celerity.

The only thing SE can do is adjust the gil/work ratio to a level where the average player is unwilling to part with their cash for gold they could earn themselves in a reasonable amount of time. It doesn't solve the problem by sanctioning the gil-sellers or the players; it poisons the well.

#34 Sep 28 2009 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Ferrus wrote:
There is nothing anyone can do to stop the RMT problem. There are temporary solutions but they will be circumvented with celerity.

The only thing SE can do is adjust the gil/work ratio to a level where the average player is unwilling to part with their cash for gold they could earn themselves in a reasonable amount of time. It doesn't solve the problem by sanctioning the gil-sellers or the players; it poisons the well.

Anything that keeps RMT from directly greifing players is good enough for me, though. Who remembers the packs of them that used to roam around Boyahda Tree nuking the **** out of all of the Goobbue? Or the ones in Korrolokka that had bots at all of the ??? spots as well as bots running through and cleaning out all of the Jelly? It made it impossible for regular players to get a shot.



I'm not saying get rid of them completely, I'm suggesting that each player become more self sufficient, therefore taking away a lot of their power. A well thought out crafting system allows just that.
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But in doing so I came across the will to disagree.
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#35 Sep 29 2009 at 5:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Do correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, Bind on Pickup is pretty much the same as Ex item in FFXI in a sense that once you "pick/loot" the item, you can't trade it to anyone else and it's yours only forever.

Wouldn't RMT still be able to sell the "service to loot" in itself? IIRC, there used to be RMT selling services to allow you to join their PT and loot Ex drops (e.g.: sky, HNM, etc).

And to a certain extent, there will be mercenary groups who would be willing to sell service to loot BoP items as well for in-game currency. If such thing is allowed (as there is no real reason to not allow it), there is still incentive for silly players to buy in-game currency from RMT to fund things like this.

Going further, I think there will be in-game items that are equivalent to Dynamis relic or other expensive items that cost A LOT. So silly players would continuously have incentive to buy in-game currency from RMT.

The best way is simply to monitor and investigate as much as you can. Someone mentioned it that RMT can't really be policed, and I agree with that, but the damage can surely be minimized through combination of a lot of things. BoP and instances help to minimize but won't fix everything (RMT can sell service to loot on BoP, and they can also sell service to run instances for you too), so GMs would definitely have to be more active and thorough in their policing. After the game goes for a while, they will know which NMs and instances they need to keep an eye on. If one area is being monopolized, then it's a sign to check things out deeper.

I remember about 3 years ago there used to be a Galka RMT named Boost in Jugner camping Poisonhand when window open and farming mask for desynth when window closed. He only ever moved between Jugner and Jeuno for AH and camping/farming. It's obvious that that account is RMT because it was always logged in, but it took S-E so long to ban this guy. He actually survived the first STFU banhammer. Might survived the next few as well cause I remembered always checking his name whenever there was banning news and disappointed for quite a while that he survived.

So the idea is, if they monitored Poisonhand pop spot regularly, the GMs would've easily notived that Boost was a suspicious account for only doing that thing over and over again as no legit player would be online 24/7. Further investigation can then probably trace the gil transfer from Boost to other accounts and so on that can link him to RMT. Then ban!

But having said all that, it's not easy to find the happy medium between making the game challenging (which might encourage RMT) and making the game convenient (which will discourage RMT). The only time that RMT will be gone is when there is no buyer. But unfortunately, there will be idiotic players who are willing to buy in-game currency.

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 9:42am by Vaagan
#36 Sep 29 2009 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Vaagan wrote:
Do correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, Bind on Pickup is pretty much the same as Ex item in FFXI in a sense that once you "pick/loot" the item, you can't trade it to anyone else and it's yours only forever.

Wouldn't RMT still be able to sell the "service to loot" in itself? IIRC, there used to be RMT selling services to allow you to join their PT and loot Ex drops (e.g.: sky, HNM, etc).

And to a certain extent, there will be mercenary groups who would be willing to sell service to loot BoP items as well for in-game currency. If such thing is allowed (as there is no real reason to not allow it), there is still incentive for silly players to buy in-game currency from RMT to fund things like this.

Going further, I think there will be in-game items that are equivalent to Dynamis relic or other expensive items that cost A LOT. So silly players would continuously have incentive to buy in-game currency from RMT.
I know that (At least in WoW) the RMT aren't smart/good enough to carry people through content to sell certain items. Plus, they only get one chance a week, and if said item doesn't drop, sucks to be them. It just was never worth the effort on their part.
____________________________
Did you lose faith?
Yes, I lost faith in the powers that be.
But in doing so I came across the will to disagree.
And I gave up. Yes, I gave up, and then I gave in.
But I take responsibility for every single sin. ♪ ♫


Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#37 Sep 29 2009 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
Vaagan wrote:
Going further, I think there will be in-game items that are equivalent to Dynamis relic or other expensive items that cost A LOT. So silly players would continuously have incentive to buy in-game currency from RMT.
I'd like to not see a return of "collect 15-30,000 of X item", as it promotes mindless farming and encourages less than ethical behaviors. Mythics had the right idea starting out by making you fulfill a set of "conditions" that still made the weapons difficult and time consuming to gain (keeping them rare) without relying on mind numbing collection. (then they messed it up by adding the alexanderite requirement, fing everything to ****, and making them crap compared to relics which were better and took less effort)
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#38 Sep 29 2009 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'd like to not see a return of "collect 15-30,000 of X item", as it promotes mindless farming and encourages less than ethical behaviors. Mythics had the right idea starting out by making you fulfill a set of "conditions" that still made the weapons difficult and time consuming to gain (keeping them rare) without relying on mind numbing collection. (then they messed it up by adding the alexanderite requirement, fing everything to ****, and making them crap compared to relics which were better and took less effort)

I agree that I don't want to see another "collect 15-30,000 of X item", but the dilemma for the developer is that MMO is meant to be timesink. They'd want the players to play as long as they can. Thus, there would be something in the game that would require a lot of time to accomplish.

It can be in 2 forms:
1. Collect absurb number of items (like Dynamis relic) in which the limitation is the currency, OR
2. Put time limitation (getting last Campaign medal from scratch takes a few months the quickest)

The thing that is very difficult is to find the balance for this "ultimate item" in a sense where it's difficult enough to obtain so that only small number of players would be able to, while maintaining that it's still very reasonably reachable for anyone who put in the effort.

Part of the problem is that different players value diffent things differently. For example RMT case itself. For those people who are rich in real life, they don't care about spending $100 to buy gil because to get $100 in real life, it's **** easy for them while they don't have the time to farm gil in game. On the other hand, you have people who can make gil easily because they're unemployed and play a lot.

Probably what I'd like to see is to offer alternatives to obtain the ultimate item. Say for example for the case of Dynamis relic and ToAU mythic weapon. Why not allow players to be able to obtain either by completing either task? So if you prefer to collect coins, you can do Dynamis quest but in the end asked with a question of whether you want Dynamis Sword or Mythic Sword. While if you prefer to fulfill "conditions", you can also do that and still obtain Dynamis Sword or Mythic Sword. Of course it's just an example and it doesn't have to be exactly like that, but the concept of what I'd like to see would be the same. Alternative methods to obtain the same gears and weapons.
#39 Sep 29 2009 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
I think something like KSNM99 black belt items w/ more fights involved would be reasonable. I want to see top tier rewards based on beating multiple difficult fights (either via titles or drops), not "farm a ton of gil". Given the quality of mythic weapons all of the effort required minus the alexandrite requirement seems like a sufficient time sync to ensure rarity while making them reasonably assessable. There are a ton of content/timesinks available in FFXI in the form of quests and special battlefields that people just didn't do. Give them an incentive to do a wide variety of events and you don't have make a dyna style endless repetition time sync.
Quote:
Why not allow players to be able to obtain either by completing either task? So if you prefer to collect coins, you can do Dynamis quest but in the end asked with a question of whether you want Dynamis Sword or Mythic Sword.
I'm pretty sure most jobs would take the Relic, this isn't fixing the problem though.

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 8:53pm by shintasama
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#40 Sep 29 2009 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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2. Contact fan sites and require them to remove ads that promote gil-selling in their ad service. This is probably one of the major sources buyers find RMT sites. Remove this and buyers wont be able to find where to buy gil.


The problem with that suggestion is that you're basically asking those sites to take a cut in their monthly revenue. The smaller fan sites aren't going to be willing to do that and the larger sites don't have that type of ads on them (at least not that I've noticed).

Quote:
WoW's take on this was rather genius, in the sense that every craft had a form of consumable. And they were also all vital parts of the gameplay experience.


FFXI had a unique take on crafting as well, both had their pros and cons from my point of view. The main thing I liked about WoW's system is that you had to collect the recipes for your chosen craft(s) which meant that not everyone had access to the same ones.

FFXI's system gave you more of a sense of accomplishment when you hit the top tiers. Problem is that once you get there, you're the same as every other 100+3 crafter on your server and end up competing with each other for profits on HQ'ing low to mid lvl synths.

If SE really wants to curb RMT in FFXIV then they shouldn't make gil so difficult to obtain. I'm not saying that they should be giving it away or making it so NPCs buy trash items for ridiculous amounts of gil; but it definitely shouldn't be set up like FFXI's current system either. There is more content to do in FFXI than most people would ever have to time to do, having to spend months farming, camping NMs, and crafting just to get gil shouldn't be one of them.
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#41 Sep 29 2009 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I think something like KSNM99 black belt items w/ more fights involved would be reasonable. I want to see top tier rewards based on beating multiple difficult fights (either via titles or drops), not "farm a ton of gil".

The problem with this is that difficulty varies from player to player. If you try to 6-man KS99, yes it's difficult, but then you come with manaburn BLM alliance, and it becomes super easy.

I like the idea, but I'm not sure how to implement it properly while finding the balance so that the challenge is maintained at where it's supposed to be at.
#42 Sep 29 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Good
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That's because you're thinking in FFXI terms, where strategy occurs before the battle rather than during. The key is emphasizing the strategic elements -within- the battle. You shouldn't just expect to do well because you brought the right jobs and they're played by people who don't suck. The challenging thing shouldn't be assembling the party.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#43 Oct 08 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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"If SE really wants to curb RMT in FFXIV then they shouldn't make gil so difficult to obtain."

I think that's all that needs to be said, really. RMT people step in when they see a need in a market, just like any business. God knows, for me, it was incredibly hard and frustrating trying to make money in this game and I had two high level crafts and was on a server where NM's weren't that heavily camped. What you need to do is have a system whereby RMT isn't necessary. If you go to a WoW forum, you won't hear people complaining about RMT because no one cares. And the reason for that, is because there are many, many, ways to make money in WoW, that are simple and effective, so there is no shortage of money for anyone who puts forth even a minimal effort to make it.

Another thing to consider, is that SE is a business too. And they make money when you subscribe to their games. And RMT helps them do that because you have to play longer to get the money you need to get the items you want in the inflated economies that RMT produced so I'm not so sure that SE would even want to get rid of RMT for that reason. SE knows that a lot of FFXI players won't quit over RMT, they'll just sit around on forums like this and complain about it. I was one such person until I started playing WoW. Now, don't take this the wrong way, this isn't turning into a WoW lovefest. There are times when I feel like cancelling that service as well, for other reasons. But when I buy a high priced item in WoW I never feel stupid for doing it like I did in FFXI because the item probably came from an RMT camper. And that got to me after a while. I felt like a sucker for paying for a subscription so, now, SE doesn't get my money anymore and they won't with FFIV either, unless they get this fixed.
#44 Oct 08 2009 at 10:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I agree that SE has to make it easier to earn gil. Back in the old days, Dynamis, Chocobo stables, other event costs didn't help matters either. RMT should be invisible to your average player. They shouldn't be camping against you for a NM claim or flooding the market with shihei either. Because there ought to be enough methods to earn gil, you never have to bump into each other.

That was the problem in FFXI. RMT were worse than cockroaches camping against us in every zone including our endgame activities like SKY and HNM botting..err camping.

I realize RMT will never be eliminated 100%, but if SE is smart enough to fill our coffers, people won't be mass purchasing the gil. Don't introduce relic/mythic weapons either that cost 100 million to upgrade. The challenge should be time, mobs killed, and other factors that don't rely on gil. The mythic weapons had the right idea except the alex which goes back to the huge gil resources.

By eliminating spawned mobs such as Kings and other highly prized NM's and replaced with instances, this will help to spread the wealth. Include these type of mobs under the Guildeves requiring more people to defeat them, but everyone would at least have a fair chance. Basically, I'm proposing a system similar to ZNM's except you don't need to take a bunch of pics or collect triggers. Instead the Guildeves themselves would limit the amount of times you could fight them within a certain time period, like Nyzul boss farming.

Edited, Oct 9th 2009 1:20am by ShadowedgeFFXI
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