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For those that claim they won't buy FFXIVFollow

#1 Sep 26 2009 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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For those that claim they won't buy/play FFXIV, why are you lurking here? Don't answer just yet, I think I might know the answer.

Because deep down inside, SE might pull off the unimaginable fixing all the flaws that pushed you away from FFXI. So because of this, you check out the demo trailers and other tidbits of info looking to confirm the hit or miss status of the upcoming MMO FFXIV. You probably know if enough of your friends try it and like it, you'll cave in and jump on board too. However, it's safer to error on the side of caution. If FFXIV's Beta has any flaws, you'll be the first to say "I told you so".

All I asking is to drop the pretense. If your to butthurt about some of the failures in FFXI, that's completely understandable. I'm almost positive most of us are concerned about SE Customer service if nothing else. It's not cool to bash a game that's not out yet. Or imply the game is fail because the Devs also worked on FFXI. Let's try to keep this forum thinking positive and hopefully SE will come though.
#2 Sep 26 2009 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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Well, I have to say I'm one of those that you mention. The only difference is that I won't say that i won't buy the game. That's why i visit this website, to see what's SE is up to. To check any new released info. I'm an ex-FFXI player. I'm here hoping SE will fix many mistakes they made on FFXI and so far they are looking good. I'm still not sure about the no auto attack thing but I can't comment on it that much since I haven't tried it myself and not much info has been revealed about it yet. Anyways I'm new on this forum and I hope everyone is doing alright.
#3 Sep 26 2009 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Awesome post ShadowedgeFFXI. Finally some one making sense. People are quick to judge thing, things they don't know or understand. I guess when people speculate about what will be in the game they give SE very little credit about what they are doing. Then they compare things to the best out there (for some odd reason its WoW which I do not understand) and nothing will ever go beyond the best even if has the best graphics revamped game play. Its like compairing any RPG to FFVII. It just doesn't beat it. Okay come one FFVII is a great game, WoW is the best out there, according to you fanboys, yet no other game will touch those games. You people beg for something fresh and new but easily dismiss everything saying why couldn't they use some aspects from WoW or any other mmo. I mean people are welcome to their oppinion but I mean if you are going to constantly compare to other mmos and dismiss everything why post? Just to create problems with those that disagree with you b/c you have nothing better to do? Sorry just hand to add on to Shadowedge's rant
#4 Sep 26 2009 at 2:50 PM Rating: Default
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#5 Sep 26 2009 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Im pretty ******* butthurt over FFXI but I think SE learned from that game and will deliver this time. (If they **** this up I'm probably gona go postal) :(
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#6 Sep 26 2009 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm pretty sure SE has learned from their mistakes in FFXI. My only concern honestly is performance on the PC. FF14 looks astoundingly complex and demanding - it's one thing to show a player in a newbie zone whacking some birds. I'll be impressed if it runs smooth like Aion in large raids or populated zones like cities.
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#7 Sep 26 2009 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think many have a valid reason to be butthurt over FFXI, anyway.

If you also look really closely and with unbiased eyes at the game, you'll see that they've already learned from 90% of the flaws present in the game. That's why I'm so confident about XIV's success, because I can see the progress the dev team has made in these recent years.
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#8 Sep 26 2009 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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I'm pretty sure SE has learned from their mistakes in FFXI. My only concern honestly is performance on the PC. FF14 looks astoundingly complex and demanding - it's one thing to show a player in a newbie zone whacking some birds. I'll be impressed if it runs smooth like Aion in large raids or populated zones like cities.


Doesn't look like anything a radeon x4870 can't handle, which by the time the game is released, should be well under $100. I wouldn't worry too much about upgrade specs just yet. And Crystaltools looks to be a pretty robust engine, as well.
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#9 Sep 27 2009 at 6:09 AM Rating: Decent
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#10 Sep 27 2009 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
I don't think many have a valid reason to be butthurt over FFXI, anyway.
Yeah, I mean lackluster updates, incomplete job adjustments, lack of testing of released content, grievous errors that are completely unrelated to the meager updates, no interaction with the playerbase, a sick fascination with punishing the playerbase through gimmicky monsters, and an unwillingness to address truly broken content and situations even though the playerbase has been asking for as little as answers to them. Those **** ungrateful players, they should be thankful to get treated like that.

* Oh, and truly wonderful customer support. I forgot that. **** you players, how can you possibly be upset?

** ****, I keep remembering things that are wonderful about FFXI! Augments and level sync'd gear! Why, I don't know how I could possibly forget to add those to the PLUS column; a system that randomly spits stats on to pieces of equipment, with a 66% chance of either being negative or useless, and a system to allow the players to wear higher level gear at lower levels, but making the stats on them next to useless, leaning closer to useless. Sheesh, I'm going to go over and offer my daughter to Square. I should have felt much more honored than I was, they deserve a blood sacrifice.

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Edited, Sep 27th 2009 10:32am by lolgaxe
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#11 Sep 27 2009 at 7:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I mean lackluster updates, incomplete job adjustments, lack of testing of released content, grievous errors that are completely unrelated to the meager updates, no interaction with the playerbase, a sick fascination with punishing the playerbase through gimmicky monsters, and an unwillingness to address truly broken content and situations even though the playerbase has been asking for as little as answers to them. Those **** ungrateful players, they should be thankful to get treated like that.


You should have quit the game when it became like that for you. The purpose of the updates is to delay the time it takes from the player to catch up in content. It's not (entirely) SE's fault if you're so addicted you can't quit and that the only thing keeping you playing are the updates that "might change things for the better, maybe" or "friends" or whatever the excuse is.

We seem to like this sick fascination about punishing players one way or the other, why would we be playing FFXI otherwise, the game that kicks you in the nuts repeatedly until you fall down dead? Is it SE's fault that they provide content like that if they've done it from the very start? If you suddenly don't like it anymore just quit the **** game, don't blame the devs for continuing to do what they've done since the start of the game.

In the end not many have a valid reason to be butthurt over customer support, either. Those who have been wronged do have a reason, yes, but we're talking about 1% of the playerbase. The rest are there to just complain even though SE has done them no wrong personally. It's quite comical how everyone suddenly cares about random strangers when evil SE comes and bans them.

All you're saying points out the fact that you've been playing longer than you should have. You also forget the big picture in your giant pool of cynicism as well- the grass isn't that green on the other side. All MMO companies tend to suck, some more in some aspects (customer service), and some more in other aspects. You go to MMO forum X and see the exact same complaints you have about FFXI. It's universal and not just some SE-thing, so yeah; cope with it or don't play MMO's at all is my suggestion. Or tell me where to find the Utopia where no MMO has these problems, and I'll gladly join you.
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#12 Sep 27 2009 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
You should have quit the game when it became like that for you.
I did. Try again.

Second paragraph blah blah blah another remark about how I should do something I did a long time ago, so I ignored that entirely. Not worth my time.

Hyanmen wrote:
It's quite comical how everyone suddenly cares about random strangers when evil SE comes and bans them.
Yeah, because being concerned that every little benign action the playerbase itself takes causes huge problems is wrong unless you get the worst of punishments, right? **** everyone else, as long as you get yours, right? I mean, Square only implemented an automatic program that banned players for selling useless things to NPCs. We should forgive them for that?

Hyanmen wrote:
Blah blah everyone else sucks so its okay for SE to suck as well.
Except that Blizzard actually communicates with their playerbase on their official forums, and have yet to implement anything that automatically bans innocent players, and when their players were getting hacked they were pretty **** quick in handling it. Blizzard and WoW have short comings, yes, but let's not even pretend that they're anywhere near each other.

But hey, innocent people being banned and a company that drags it's feet to address their hacked players is obviously invalid reasons to be ******* And heaven forbid players not wanting to be treated like that before being smited. You're right, its all in our minds and invalid.
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#13 Sep 27 2009 at 7:37 AM Rating: Default
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I did. Try again.


Too late it seems. A much too late it seems.

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Yeah, because being concerned that every little benign action the playerbase itself takes causes huge problems is wrong unless you get the worst of punishments, right? @#%^ everyone else, as long as you get yours, right? I mean, Square only implemented an automatic program that banned players for selling useless things to NPCs. We should forgive them for that?


We should care about that for why exactly? Only person that should be asked to forgive them is the guy who got banned. It's understandable that he doesn't want to forgive them, but you guys? Let me laugh out loud.

Quote:
Except that Blizzard actually communicates with their playerbase on their official forums, and have yet to implement anything that automatically bans innocent players, and when their players were getting hacked they were pretty **** quick in handling it. Blizzard and WoW have short comings, yes, but let's not even pretend that they're anywhere near each other.


Oh, did you see the sentence marked with brackets in my last post? Let me repeat it for you:

"All MMO companies tend to suck, some more in some aspects (customer service), and some more in other aspects."

What's a good thing is that customer service and communication is actually only fluff that addicted players demand from the developers, not something that makes the game worse than it is (for 99,9% of the players- some get banned, they can Q_Q). What devs say outside of the game makes no difference in the game.

I admit Blizzard is pretty **** good at providing fluff though.

Quote:
But hey, innocent people being banned and a company that drags it's feet to address their hacked players is obviously invalid reasons to be ******* And heaven forbid players not wanting to be treated like that before being smited. You're right, its all in our minds and invalid.


Those that were wronged can be ******* they have the right to be. I never said they don't have. I said that "I don't think many have a valid reason to be butthurt over FFXI, anyway." Some do. Most don't.

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#14 Sep 27 2009 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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#15 Sep 27 2009 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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Those that were wronged can be ******* they have the right to be. I never said they don't have. I said that "I don't think many have a valid reason to be butthurt over FFXI, anyway." Some do. Most don't.
You can't be serious, right? I mean, really? Just because you didn't get banned doesn't mean that you should just forgive and forget. That's a huge fuck up on their part. Catastrophically huge. No other company with an MMO on the market has made a blunder even nearly the size of random bannings, so pardon us if we think it's just downright the dumbest thing ever.

On top of that, you seem to be perfectly fine with broken content. If that's the case, might I suggest you ask yourself why? XI is the only game where I can safely say they break more **** than they fix on average, so just ask yourself why this is acceptable. If the answer is anything short of "Because THIS IS MY GAME AND I LOVE IT" I would be genuinely shocked. I used to be okay with it too when I still played XI, and only XI. But when I opened up to other games, and started to see how when things were broken/glitched/unbalanced, they got addressed in some way, I realized just how lazy the development team on XI is. For the speed that new content comes out, you would think that most of the developers would have nothing better to do than try and fix old content. Why not address player complaints? Something? Anything?







@original topic: I'll buy it, although I don't have the highest hopes for it being something I play for the long run. I don't have a lot of faith that Enix will do a better job this time around, at least as far as customer service and continued development is concerned, but I'm open minded enough to give it a shot and see if it's something I'll enjoy.
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#16 Sep 27 2009 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Positive thinking only lasts a certain while. I was certain SE wouldn't be so dumb that they wouldn't see the flaws with SMN and expected an update 2004.

2004 passed, 2005 passed, 2006 passed, 2007 passed, 2008 passed and not until 2009 they bothered to fix 2 problems out of a list of about 20 problems.

If you ask me SE has used up all their positive thinking from me years ago.

Right now I'm mostly just visiting this forum because the XI forums are more or less dead. Nothing new and nothing interesting is posted ever. Just same things we've posted since 2004, and NEVER gotten even a reply saying they are looking into the issue.

Considering one of the biggest flaws of SE is lack of communication, it is not too far fetched to say that XIV is already a lost case when they've almost finished the game without asking a single question to us who will play it.

That is about as clever as building a house without asking people who will move in about what they would like. Toilets? They wanted toilets? Nobody told us who were building the house! We thought most people peed in the shower anyway.
#17 Sep 27 2009 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
Word of advice. Whether you feel right or just want to pick a fight, it's impossible to beat lolgaxe. If for some reason you were about to beat him, the subject would suddenly change to ******* anyway.

EDIT: Kaolian and Wordaen are obvious exceptions of course.

Edited, Sep 27th 2009 2:28pm by LadyOfHolyDarkness
#18 Sep 27 2009 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
For those that claim they won't buy/play FFXIV, why are you lurking here? Don't answer just yet, I think I might know the answer.

Because deep down inside, SE might pull off the unimaginable fixing all the flaws that pushed you away from FFXI.

etc.


You're almost correct here, except that while I and others in similar positions are, as you put it, "butthurt" about failures in FFXI and the catastrophes in customer service, we're not saying we won't buy FFXIV in an absolute sense. Many of us are exerting caution as to not get our hopes up; thinking positively will mostly result in let downs, so while I'd love to think "FFXIV will be the MMO I've been waiting for, and I will happily play it for years to come," that mindset has a higher probability in resulting in letdowns. With that being said, it's illogical to both bash a game that isn't out yet and to shoot down XIV based on any beta flaws. However, it is understandable for someone to be cautious in presumptions and to think that "most likely I will not buy this game based on X and due to (insert event) in the past" and to keep a look out in case something wonderful is announced that makes one want to buy the game.
#19 Sep 27 2009 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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I couldn't possibly disagree with more you Hyanmen, on nearly every single point.

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Considering one of the biggest flaws of SE is lack of communication, it is not too far fetched to say that XIV is already a lost case when they've almost finished the game without asking a single question to us who will play it.


Hmmmmmm. Don't lose hope just yet.
The fact they're committed to a beta test that's longer than normal is a good sign.

In development is too early to take direct feedback from the public. They can't just hand the masses a game with big white blocks and say "just imagine that's a really cool monster". They need a starting point, if just to give people some fodder to identify as something they like or don't like. What's going to define their commitment to customer service is how flexible and communicative they are during Beta Test.


There is one solid reason you should be willing to give XIV a chance in spite of XI:
Because the market is taking MMOs more seriously since the success of WoW, XIV has an much bigger budget.

Edited, Sep 27th 2009 5:14pm by Zemzelette
#20 Sep 27 2009 at 1:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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In the end not many have a valid reason to be butthurt over customer support, either. Those who have been wronged do have a reason, yes, but we're talking about 1% of the playerbase. The rest are there to just complain even though SE has done them no wrong personally. It's quite comical how everyone suddenly cares about random strangers when evil SE comes and bans them.


Spoken like someone that has never had to deal w/ SE's customer service before. I can completely understand your point though, it's absolutely ridiculous that we, the player base, should expect anything near an acceptable level of customer service from a company that we have faithfully paid thousands of dollars to over the past 6 years. Must be hard to breathe with your head buried so far into the sand.

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We seem to like this sick fascination about punishing players one way or the other, why would we be playing FFXI otherwise, the game that kicks you in the nuts repeatedly until you fall down dead? Is it SE's fault that they provide content like that if they've done it from the very start? If you suddenly don't like it anymore just quit the **** game, don't blame the devs for continuing to do what they've done since the start of the game.


People might not have complained quite as much about lackluster updates when we were getting them every few months. I'm guessing either you haven't/didn't play FFXI for very long or have a very skewed perception of "continuing to do what they've done since the start of the game".


On a side note:
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It's like comparing any RPG to FFVII. It just doesn't beat it.


You are aware that there were Final Fantasy games that were made prior to that overhyped semi decent game, right?
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#21 Sep 27 2009 at 8:11 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
For those that claim they won't buy/play FFXIV, why are you lurking here? Don't answer just yet, I think I might know the answer.

Because deep down inside, SE might pull off the unimaginable fixing all the flaws that pushed you away from FFXI. So because of this, you check out the demo trailers and other tidbits of info looking to confirm the hit or miss status of the upcoming MMO FFXIV. You probably know if enough of your friends try it and like it, you'll cave in and jump on board too. However, it's safer to error on the side of caution. If FFXIV's Beta has any flaws, you'll be the first to say "I told you so".

All I asking is to drop the pretense. If your to butthurt about some of the failures in FFXI, that's completely understandable. I'm almost positive most of us are concerned about SE Customer service if nothing else. It's not cool to bash a game that's not out yet. Or imply the game is fail because the Devs also worked on FFXI. Let's try to keep this forum thinking positive and hopefully SE will come though.


I'm not planning on playing it, and I DO still play and enjoy XI. So I don't have issues with SE over XI, my issue is SE might abandon XI for XIV.
#22 Sep 27 2009 at 9:48 PM Rating: Good
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Some very good responses to my post. Obviously everyone has a their own opinion to slight degree. I think it's a safe bet that some people myself included, are concerned if SE will fix those nagging issues. Upon looking back at the recent NIN and RDM job updates, I can't help but feel they came too little, too late.

It's important that we the community of FFXI make our voices heard this time around. I posted in another thread about having our FFXI community write up the strategy guide for FFXIV instead of allowing Brady to ***** things up again. SE's growing acceptance of community sites like Allakhazam can only be considered a good thing. Playonline is being scrapped. FFXIV is launching international, not with a JP lead time. Beta is projected to be longer than FFXI's 4 month trial.

It's understandable some people don't trust SE and those people have a reason to feel that way. However, I feel it's important to give SE the benefit of the doubt and work with them. We complained for years about the RMT and when SE finally begun to snuff them out, legit players got burnt as well. I don't believe SE's R&D team ever though they would be forced to devote so many resources in combating the RMT. Now with FFXIV, SE is ready from the beginning with the proper technology in hand to strike a blow to the RMT.

I'm willing to give SE a second chance with FFXIV. The planned casual content with substance alone is very appealing to me. No, I don't expect a WoW clone, but I predict some elements of WoW will creep into the gameplay. All I know for certain is that FFXIV has the potential to be something very special. Thanks for taking the time to read my post.
#23 Sep 27 2009 at 11:17 PM Rating: Decent
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You know, as much as I'd LIKE to get FF14 when it finally comes out, I have some serious reservations about SE in general.

My primary concern is SE's customer service. Its just plain awful. Now, to their credit, SE is getting rid of Pol and going to monthly billing (meaning you get billed at the same time every month, not everyone gets billed at the beginning). So, I'm seeing some improvement.

On the other hand, the recent mass bannings were done it a terrible fashion. If you don't think RMT is going to try and get their claws into FF14, you're mistaken. Does this mean SE is going to continue auto-banning anyone that matches are a fairly loose set of "RMT like activity"? If so, I'd hate to put hours and days into a game only to lose my account because some bot thinks I was taking part in some RMT activity.

SE has also been very slow to warm up to certain ideas. It took them forever to give people the ability to play FFXI in windowed mode. They ignored RMT for a long long time before finally attempting to fix things but only after the mass inflation had destroyed the economy. Sky was a mess. 21 hour spawns? People hated that.

I'm not saying FF14 should be easy mode, but some of these things can be fixed. I certainly do not want it as easy as WoW. I took great pride in hitting 75 in FFXI. In WoW, any idiot can get to end game content. The game can be hard, but still entertaining. It just shouldn't feel like work.

So far, it looks as though SE has taken strides to fix these issues with FF14. If they have, then, yeah sign me up. If not, I plan on playing Star Wars.

To sum it up, "I'm hoping for the best, but I'll be ready for the worst." Time will tell, one way or another.

Edited, Sep 28th 2009 3:19am by Caia

Edited, Sep 28th 2009 3:19am by Caia
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#24 Sep 27 2009 at 11:51 PM Rating: Decent
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shaani wrote:
Im pretty @#%^ing butthurt over FFXI but I think SE learned from that game and will deliver this time. (If they @#%^ this up I'm probably gona go postal) :(


The problem with this premise is exactly how SE plans to "Learn" from FFXI mistakes. In this case it seems to be responding to people that did not like FFXI due to its various highly publicized "Hard core" elements and then translating that into a new game.

Its one thing to build a game with the flaws and technical limitations of its predecessor in mind and a completely different thing to sculpt a game around the people that did not play it due to various reasons. (Ie. They felt it was too difficult)

FFXIV is looking to be tremendously more "Casual Gamer" orientated the more we learn about it, rather than a reboot of FFXI with every facet of the previous limitations explored and re-examined.

An Example: Many people use FFXI as the trademark of tedious and timely traveling when it comes to MMOs. So what do we see this time around? "Instant travel"

Another Example: Leveling to 75 in FFXI was tedious and considered one of the harder achievements in terms of progression when it comes to MMOs. So what do we see this time around? "No levels"

I am not sold yet, but I will continue to patrol this forum and other FFXIV outlets to learn just that; Is FFXIV going to be FFXI+ or is it going to be a console care bear form of it?

Edited, Sep 28th 2009 2:53am by patient
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#25 Sep 28 2009 at 12:47 AM Rating: Good
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patient wrote:

FFXIV is looking to be tremendously more "Casual Gamer" orientated the more we learn about it, rather than a reboot of FFXI with every facet of the previous limitations explored and re-examined.

An Example: Many people use FFXI as the trademark of tedious and timely traveling when it comes to MMOs. So what do we see this time around? "Instant travel"

Another Example: Leveling to 75 in FFXI was tedious and considered one of the harder achievements in terms of progression when it comes to MMOs. So what do we see this time around? "No levels"

I am not sold yet, but I will continue to patrol this forum and other FFXIV outlets to learn just that; Is FFXIV going to be FFXI+ or is it going to be a console care bear form of it?


I think you mistaken about the "No levels" mechanic. The skills themselves have levels and there seems to be talk of additional abilities such as sub jobs. Instead of a typical leveling system, FFXIV seems to be a game of skill ups rather than XP. I also think that many of the reasons FFXI never was able to bring in more people was the huge learning curve and travel times. If you look at SE's improvements with Maws, OP, more teleport items, choco whistles, Talisman, Tav/ToAU rings and so forth. You'll see all these improvements were for the better. The Devs stated that all the improvements that were appealing such as Level sync and Fov would transfer to FFXIV in some form.

SE stated there will be a skill cap for certain missions kinda like level cap in certain BCNM/Missions. However, Level sync would be in play so it's not a huge deal. Don't get me wrong, FFXIV won't be as hard as FFXI was pre-CoP nerf, but I don't see FFXIV being another WoW clone either.
#26 Sep 28 2009 at 3:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Caia wrote:
If you don't think RMT is going to try and get their claws into FF14, you're mistaken.
They're already in Aion, so its a safe bet for FFXIV as well.

Honestly, what I'm doing is going to see how FFXIV turns out, and depending on that I'll decide what I'm going to do for the MMO that follows. The last two years of 11 has ruined 14 for me, so we'll see how 14 deals with it and they might get a monthly subscription from me.
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#27 Sep 28 2009 at 5:15 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Caia wrote:
If you don't think RMT is going to try and get their claws into FF14, you're mistaken.
They're already in Aion, so its a safe bet for FFXIV as well.

Honestly, what I'm doing is going to see how FFXIV turns out, and depending on that I'll decide what I'm going to do for the MMO that follows. The last two years of 11 has ruined 14 for me, so we'll see how 14 deals with it and they might get a monthly subscription from me.


I still love FFXI, I don't understand hostility from the playerbase, especially those that spend so much time on the forums for the game. I've been around since the PS2 release and can honestly say today's FFXI is a much better game than it was then. SE doesn't change every single detail people complain about, but they have done quite a lot. Fields of Valor, Level Sync, etc are all great additions. There is more solo content than there was a few years ago, without changing the concept of what this game is about. Since ToAU there are endgame activities that can be done with small groups (Salvage, Nyzul Isle).

But I'm not blind to the problems either. The add-on scenarios were a horrible substitue for a real expansion. It was painfully obvious they were little more than a quick cash-in by SE, using the knowledge that the playerbase will pay for anything with a must-have in-game reward. Their advertising of these games centered around the reward you get by completing them.

Worst of all is the customer service. It is beyond anything I have ever dealt with by any company. I've had to deal with them personally when their credit card system decided to stop accepting my card (this was before the new verification system). I couldn't believe how horrible the CS reps were. They basically told me to figure it out on my own or play a different game. If it wasn't for help I got from FFXI players on forums, I probablly would have been forced in an early retirement.

I guess we could go on with how they ban innocent players, because it was easier/cheaper for them to have a bot determine RMT than to do it themselves. Or how many hoops they make those players go through to get their accounts back, or how long they make them wait. Double billing, rude GMs, etc.

Hmmm I started this post in defense of FFXI and thus FFXIV, but **** outside of the actual game designers and programmers, SE has some major issues when dealing with actual people. I hope they get these fixed for XIV, because I'm planning to give it a shot.
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#28 Sep 28 2009 at 7:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Just because you didn't get banned doesn't mean that you should just forgive and forget.


Forgive and forget what exactly? Did they do something that would affect your gaming experience?

Quote:
No other company with an MMO on the market has made a blunder even nearly the size of random bannings, so pardon us if we think it's just downright the dumbest thing ever.


Sorry if I call you ignorant here, but that's nothing. The creators of EVE slipped in a file in one of the games' updates that would break your pc to a point that the only way to fix it was to reformat. And yes, lots of players downloaded the update before something was done.

Quote:
On top of that, you seem to be perfectly fine with broken content


Actually, I'm fine with the fact that in every MMO there is broken content. SE is not some exception.

I have actually thought about the updates SE has given us from an unbiased point of view (that most players can't do, unfortunately). Maybe that's why I'm more tolerant about what they implement, because I see their logic and realize what kind of game they're working on. We can discuss this as much as you want, just start giving examples.
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#29 Sep 28 2009 at 7:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The last two years of 11 has ruined 14 for me


Quote:
You should have quit the game when it became like that for you.


And I bet every game will become like that for you at some point. FFXI wasn't before what it's like for you now. It's really hard if not impossible to compare the two games before you've played them enough.

Of course when you start WoW and are like ooh this is great, you immediately remember the last two years of FFXI and think how sucky it was, but that's not really a fair comparison.
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#30 Sep 28 2009 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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The problem with this premise is exactly how SE plans to "Learn" from FFXI mistakes. In this case it seems to be responding to people that did not like FFXI due to its various highly publicized "Hard core" elements and then translating that into a new game.


That happens to be one of the things SE has failed to learn. You FIX flaws, not go and make new things without them.

Perfect examples:

Ward duration is too short -> Phantom rolls are 5 min.
Pets could use some customization -> Puppetmaster and Pankration.

It is lunatic to think adding new things based on solutions to old problems is elevating the old problems.

I'm also annoyed that I've been sending them suggestions to fix spirits for years, and they just nail elemental pankration pets instantly. Something is very wrong when a mini game works better than one (if you include BST I guess it is two) of the classes of the game.

Quote:
FFXIV is launching international, not with a JP lead time. Beta is projected to be longer than FFXI's 4 month trial.


The problem with betas is that they only really cover "does the game work?". They obviously do not cover "is this new expansion material balanced?" or "is this update decent?".

Even if the game had 5 years of beta, it wouldn't really do anything else than weed out more bugs than an 1 week beta.

Besides, with updates coming now and then all you really would need is to tell SE what needs updating, and them following it. Too bad this is where SE completely fails. They aren't listening at all.
#31 Sep 28 2009 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Just because you didn't get banned doesn't mean that you should just forgive and forget.


Forgive and forget what exactly? Did they do something that would affect your gaming experience?
Well, I'm not ***, retarded, or Jewish, but I still think the Holocaust was pretty ****** up even though it really didn't effect me.
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#32 Sep 28 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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You forgot Gypsies.
#33 Sep 28 2009 at 10:24 AM Rating: Decent
Hulan wrote:
You forgot Gypsies.
Maybe he feels the gypsies deserved it.
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#34 Sep 28 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Default
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Professor shintasama wrote:
Hulan wrote:
You forgot Gypsies.
Maybe he feels the gypsies deserved it.
They smell funny.
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Yes, I lost faith in the powers that be.
But in doing so I came across the will to disagree.
And I gave up. Yes, I gave up, and then I gave in.
But I take responsibility for every single sin. ♪ ♫


Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#35 Sep 28 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Default
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Because I'm curious to see what the game will be like. I haven't said I won't buy it, but I'm leaning more towards it every day that I play FFXI. It's enjoyable with friends. But yeah it's because of their attitude and foul treatment of customers more recently that has turned me off of 14. And plus if I have to jump through so many hoops just to play 11, why would I do it again to play 14? Plus I like visiting here it's so funny to see people make assumptions about the game and complain ahead of time.
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#36 Sep 28 2009 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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My next point should be self explanatory. If SE screws up FFXIV ignoring the current issues we have with FFXI, we can all just quit or go back to our friends in FFXI. Because if FFXIV has poor customer service, double billings, RMT banning tools that misfire, unbalanced jobs, a bad economy, etc... it's obvious SE learned nothing from FFXI.

Does everyone agree with what I just said? I like to believe SE knows how much these issues bother us. The RMT /tells are nothing compared to my other gripes above. Glitches aside coming out at launch, I expect most of these issues resolved. I'll give them a chance if the job balance isn't perfect, but only a chance, not years like BST, RDM(melee), SMN, NIN etc. I'm hoping that the reason for the lack of job updates/game fixes in FFXI is directly related to a manpower shortage of launching FFXIV. Here's to hoping SE learns from their mistakes.
#37 Sep 28 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The last two years of 11 has ruined 14 for me


I keep hearing things like this, I quit post Aht Urhgan and pre wings of goddess then revisited shortly for wings of goddess but quit again pre level synch. what exactly happened the last two years thats so horrible, because people keep making it sound like SE came to all the players doors those years, put a gun to their head and forced them to pick up a puppy and use it to beat a box full of kittens to death...
#38 Sep 28 2009 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The problem with betas is that they only really cover "does the game work?". They obviously do not cover "is this new expansion material balanced?" or "is this update decent?".


Every company worth their weight in salt does beta testing for patches and expansions nowadays.

I'm going to give SE the benefit of the doubt and say, it's possible they hit their quality ceiling before that started to be a universal expectation of customers. It's terribad customer service that they didn't comply anyway just for the sake of reputation, and one of the many things that has myself and others keeping a wary eye on SE. But, I'll go out on a limb here and say you shouldn't expect that to be the case this time around.

The profit model for MMOs requires staggering up-front costs, and relies on making back that money over time. 2010 is when nearly any company that could manage to scrape together the funds after seeing the success of WoW is releasing an MMO of every conceivable flavor. There's too much competition floating around for SE to go against the grain so obviously.

Quote:
Even if the game had 5 years of beta, it wouldn't really do anything else than weed out more bugs than an 1 week beta.


Remains to be seen whether or not they can muster the receptiveness needed, but, Betas are for more than bug reporting. While you likely won't see a complete rewrite of game mechanics, you'll definitely see balancing, and responses to player suggestions. But they have to be the right kind of suggestions.

If there are 100 people in beta:

If 5 people want a cat-eared headband, this isn't likely to be listened to. It doesn't require much effort, but it only satisfies a handful of people and doesn't necessarily make sense.

If 75 people want a pet class, this also isn't likely to be listened to. It satisfies the majority of people, and it makes sense, but, it requires alot of effort and there was probably a reason they avoided it in the first place. They may have stayed away from it because Pet Classes are universally very difficult to balance in MMOs, and they might want to see their system in action to get a better idea of how to implement it fairly.

If 50 people want a dressing room, this should be listened to. It satisfies about half the people, it makes sense in a game that provides crafters the power to customize their creations, and it's a feature that's already been explored in other MMOs which means it's easier to figure out how to implement it.

If SE is avoiding the 1's, explaining to us why they won't implement the 2's, and gets cracking on the 3's in a timely manner they're doing stellar. Even if they can't be assed to explain the 2's, they're still showing a marked improvement over FFXI. If they ignore everything without so much as a peep, you're right, they haven't learned one **** thing.





#39 Sep 29 2009 at 4:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Of course when you start WoW and are like ooh this is great, you immediately remember the last two years of FFXI and think how sucky it was, but that's not really a fair comparison.
Its cute that you think my quitting was a recent development, and that you think that "the last two years" translates to "my last two years." But then it stops being cute when I realize you're a hopeless fanboy addicted to Square Enix who'll try to use any assumption pulled out of thin air to defend your addiction.

Get help.
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#40 Sep 29 2009 at 7:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Its cute that you think my quitting was a recent development, and that you think that "the last two years" translates to "my last two years." But then it stops being cute when I realize you're a hopeless fanboy addicted to Square Enix who'll try to use any assumption pulled out of thin air to defend your addiction.

Get help.


And what do you throw at me, personal insults?

Well, one thing I did learn from this argument; you're terrible at it. Maybe it's the arrogance towards your opponent or something else, I don't know (or care, really).
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#41 Sep 29 2009 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I keep hearing things like this, I quit post Aht Urhgan and pre wings of goddess then revisited shortly for wings of goddess but quit again pre level synch. what exactly happened the last two years thats so horrible, because people keep making it sound like SE came to all the players doors those years, put a gun to their head and forced them to pick up a puppy and use it to beat a box full of kittens to death...


It's quite a simple answer. At around that time most players that started when the game came out catched up in content. At that point the only reason they'd play the game would be for the fact that updates were still coming at a decent pace. But SE can't pump out new content faster than the players clear them.. and updates in general got more 'important' to players than before, at CoP-era.

Later it was quite clear that SE was putting resources to XIV more and more, which made the updates have less content (at least it might have felt that way; when looking at CoP updates I mostly saw them full of fluff as well, so I'm not sure if it's an accurate statement). This paired with the fact that humans are never satisfied made the players (not like lolgaxe, he's a unique snowflake) become bored with the game and the problems it had became more apparent to the player. But since they were addicted they wouldn't quit, and obviously the game wouldn't suddenly become better, so the players got more and more fed up with it. For some the only way to quit was to rage quit anyway.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#42 Sep 29 2009 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I keep hearing things like this, I quit post Aht Urhgan and pre wings of goddess then revisited shortly for wings of goddess but quit again pre level synch. what exactly happened the last two years thats so horrible, because people keep making it sound like SE came to all the players doors those years, put a gun to their head and forced them to pick up a puppy and use it to beat a box full of kittens to death...


It's quite a simple answer. At around that time most players that started when the game came out catched up in content. At that point the only reason they'd play the game would be for the fact that updates were still coming at a decent pace. But SE can't pump out new content faster than the players clear them.. and updates in general got more 'important' to players than before, at CoP-era.

Later it was quite clear that SE was putting resources to XIV more and more, which made the updates have less content (at least it might have felt that way; when looking at CoP updates I mostly saw them full of fluff as well, so I'm not sure if it's an accurate statement). This paired with the fact that humans are never satisfied made the players (not like lolgaxe, he's a unique snowflake) become bored with the game and the problems it had became more apparent to the player. But since they were addicted they wouldn't quit, and obviously the game wouldn't suddenly become better, so the players got more and more fed up with it. For some the only way to quit was to rage quit anyway.
I know you think you're right, and I'mma let you finish, but Chains of Promathia was the best expansion ever.

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 3:25pm by Zackary
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But in doing so I came across the will to disagree.
And I gave up. Yes, I gave up, and then I gave in.
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#43 Sep 29 2009 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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One of the best expansions OF ALL TIME.

OF ALL TIME.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#44 Sep 29 2009 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Later it was quite clear that SE was putting resources to XIV more and more, which made the updates have less content (at least it might have felt that way; when looking at CoP updates I mostly saw them full of fluff as well, so I'm not sure if it's an accurate statement). This paired with the fact that humans are never satisfied made the players (not like lolgaxe, he's a unique snowflake) become bored with the game and the problems it had became more apparent to the player. But since they were addicted they wouldn't quit, and obviously the game wouldn't suddenly become better, so the players got more and more fed up with it.


It's great that SE wants to devote more time and resources into developing FFXIV, the issue, however, is that we (the player base) are still paying the same fee for FFXI. We're still paying the same amount each month for our subscription for FFXI, therefore it's not unreasonable to expect that we should continue to get the same amount of updates and content as we had gotten in the previous years. Bottom line, if SE is going to skimp on their support for FFXI, then they should reduce the monthly subscription fee.

You wouldn't be happy going to the same restaurant for years ordering the same meal and paying the same price to suddenly order that meal have it show up 30 minutes late and getting half the portions.

Also it wasn't that people got bored with the content and then all of a sudden all of these glaring issues in the game became apparent. It's that the player base finally started asking why the f**k they've been mentioning some of these issues (ground kings, ridiculous spawn times anyone?) and having them seemingly ignored. Only to have an interviewer inquire about those issues and being told "well if the community feels strongly that it's a problem, we may have to look into it".
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#45 Sep 29 2009 at 5:15 PM Rating: Default
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Score: Default


It's ok. I'd rate down Kanye West too, if I could.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#46 Sep 29 2009 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
Hyanmen wrote:
stuff
They're soo cute when they're oblivious.

It's like this story a friend of mine was telling me. Apparently, his ex-girlfriend called him up one day and was like, "Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yër? See the løveli lakes, The wøndërful telephøne system And mäni interesting furry animals? Including the majestik møøse." and he was like "A Møøse once bit my sister...", and she said "Wait, rëälly? You're not serious!" to which he responded, "No realli! She was Karving her initials on the møøse with the sharpened end of an interspace tøøthbrush givenher by Svenge - her brother-in-law - an Oslo dentist and star of many cult Norwegian møvies: "The Høt Hands of an Oslo Dentist", "Fillings of Passion", "The Huge Mølars of Horst Nordfink", Mynd you, møøse bites Kan be pretty nasti if not dëält with immediateli"
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#47 Sep 29 2009 at 10:41 PM Rating: Excellent
Given that most everything that could be argued about FFXIV vs FFXI vs other MMOs has been argued (at least as much as I'd care to and then some), I've been taking a back seat and watching as new information becomes available.

Right now what is troubling me most about this whole process is Tanaka's two-faced media ballet. Too many flip-flops, too many contradictions. Too much of the standard SE, "not right now, but we'll think about it."

However...

I haven't written it off. My enthusiasm for it has simply ebbed...significantly. What I would need to see between now and retail release would be the following:

a) Updated game footage showing a combat system that offered a significantly faster pace than FFXI. Right now I'm not seeing it. I have no problem if the combat starts out slow with a fresh character but picks up pace as you learn new abilities and progress your character...just show me some footage of a more advanced character that involves more than "fast" weapons on a 3 second swing timer with special abilities being queued every 10-30 seconds.

b) Concrete evidence from SE during the beta that they're done ******* around with media politics. Show me the goods, show me the plan, and be forthright about it or ****** off. I've got no patience for sly winks and slanted smiles and maybes.

c) Demonstrate to me through what is going on in FFXI + media announcements pre-retail release of FFXIV that tell me that my subscription fee would be well spent on adequate staff to handle things so automated systems don't run amok and disrupt my subscription. I don't want to hear about everything they're building in to the game now to combat RMT if all it amounts to is a more robust automated system that lolbants people for no legitimate reason leaving them on hold with customer service reps who neither know nor seem to care what the problem is while SE keeps the portion of the subscription fee represented by the lost hours/days/weeks of a lolbant account where the person paying the fee received zero value for their dollar.

I've said it before, and it's worth repeating: FFXI was a JRPG that was ported on a global scale as an afterthought. That's fine. FFXIV is going live on a global scale and SE needs to adapt their business practices to reflect a clear understanding of what that means in terms of both customer service, customer communication, and broad-spectrum appeal or I'm not taking a chance on another SE-produced cash cow that is going to do not more than absorb vast quantities of my time that are best summarized by the statement, "This is really not all that fun but I'm sure that will change soon..."
#48Renowaikk the Meaningless, Posted: Sep 30 2009 at 2:22 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I enjoy XI, I've never had to deal with their customer service, so I may be biased. I'm gonna try XIV, but something tells me theres not going to be much sense of accomplishment in it. I think I'll spend more time on XI than XIV.
#49 Sep 30 2009 at 2:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Renowaikk the Meaningless wrote:
I enjoy XI, I've never had to deal with their customer service, so I may be biased. I'm gonna try XIV, but something tells me theres not going to be much sense of accomplishment in it. I think I'll spend more time on XI than XIV.


Quote:
It's that the player base finally started asking why the f**k they've been mentioning some of these issues (ground kings, ridiculous spawn times anyone?) and having them seemingly ignored.


This makes me sad. It's this kind of thing thats gonna make XIV so "Casual friendly". It makes me angry that people who can't log in every day somehow feel like they should have access to the same gear as "Hard core" gamers.

I understand where you're coming from, but this mentality ruins any sort of sense of accomplishment. Go play WoW if you want good gear for little to no work or time.


There's a great big huge f*cking difference between not being able to log in every day and not being able to log in at three in the morning on a weeknight to spend three hours waiting to see if a mob will pop and then pray you can beat out the botters to the claim. There is no accomplishment in having so little of a life that you can basically schedule your entire day around your gaming time.
#50Renowaikk the Meaningless, Posted: Sep 30 2009 at 3:36 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) 21-24 hour spawn windows are hardly worth complaining about. Drop rates, I can understand. It's not hard to hold a ToD, and camp something when enough of your LS is on. 3 hours is less than most events anyways.
#51 Sep 30 2009 at 3:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Quote:
It's that the player base finally started asking why the f**k they've been mentioning some of these issues (ground kings, ridiculous spawn times anyone?) and having them seemingly ignored.


This makes me sad. It's this kind of thing thats gonna make XIV so "Casual friendly". It makes me angry that people who can't log in every day somehow feel like they should have access to the same gear as "Hard core" gamers.

I understand where you're coming from, but this mentality ruins any sort of sense of accomplishment. Go play WoW if you want good gear for little to no work or time.


First off, I never stated that I felt that "good gear" should be gotten with little or no work involved. There's quite a bit of a difference between being able to kill a mob and having to wake up at odd hours for the chance to claim it.

As for the sense of accomplishment, really that term has been thrown around so much by the groups that cried about thief knife being changed, CoP being changed, Exp amounts being changed, etc. that it is really nothing more than a straw man at this point. Sense of accomplishment should be derived from your own sense of achievement and what you personally did to get there. Using that as a basis of comparison with the rest of the online community just makes that individual look very sad and pathetic.

What I find sad is that there are still some people that feel they should have access to more content in this game than other people. Not because they have better skills or a better team, but because they have nothing else to do in their lives than sit for hours staring at darters, raptors, and elementals. Hard core =/ skilled player.

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