Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

Please not like AIONFollow

#1 Sep 26 2009 at 2:34 PM Rating: Default
7 posts
Bought the game, played it for about 24 hrs total, Game sucks they tried to attract the immature WOW community, of course prolly is the most profitable one but they not only fail at it but also they made a weak game with repetitive interface and quests, Im lvl 21 and I feel like I been killing the same sh*t over and over, The maps are completely small with the same visible path going all around the map Its only about 20 maps, I will say AION is no more then a cheap copy of WOW with amazing graphics, DONT make ffxi any similar to WOW please, Creators STOP trying to move the WOW KIDS around they not leaving and you guys are failing on the MMORPG creation.

And for the people that hate the Slow paste of FFXI and the HNMs taking so **** long to pop but with amazing fights and the partying system, Go play another MMORPG for a while and watch how the FFXI bug pinches you again.
Im actually gonna create a new TARU today seens I gave mine away.

Thank you for reading.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 6:36pm by limonconcon
____________________________
eva!!!
#2 Sep 26 2009 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,457 posts
Quote:
Slow paste


This part really killed me.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 3:48pm by GuardianFaith
____________________________
Hunter Avril
Rogue Ultra
Paladin Awhellnah
Mage Shantotto
Shaman Lakshmi
Faith (Valefor)

#3 Sep 26 2009 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
****
5,684 posts
. <- This is Mr. Period.

You should make friends with Mr. Period because he wants to be friends with you. After that, go find Ms. Spellcheck, I hear she's still single.

Also, you're absolutely right that FFXIV needs to be something different from the WoW formula and is probably precisely why it is being highly anticipated. Even though there are problems with FFXI, it does not follow the WoW formula and I'm sure most people are hoping that FFXIV will do the same.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 5:48pm by xypin
____________________________
Signature starts here.
#4 Sep 26 2009 at 3:32 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
285 posts
To be somewhat on the topic here! Its a ******* korean MMO, they're grindy. If you bought the game with no research then thats on you man :/
____________________________
Shaani - Cait sith
75 Samurai
Other crap that isnt 75

Morente wrote:

PUP is like Albert Einstein. Everyone thinks it's retarded until someone shows it's true potential.
#5 Sep 26 2009 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,079 posts
I'm still waiting for the alternatives from people who slam "Fetch X item for me!" or "Kill Y of Z mob!" type quests. Until then, **** near every MMO is gonna be the same.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 8:51pm by Seriha
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#6 Sep 26 2009 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
*
137 posts
I watched my friend play this game when it went online at head-start for the people who pre-ordered it.
Some things really irked me... Like how the chat was "[1. General] Scar: lololol" and "[3. FindGroup] Coolguy: hey hey". And in all the same colors as WoW. Come on, really? Have some imagination.

And the fact that Aion's equivalent of Priest's first spell was called "Smite". Yes, really.
#7 Sep 26 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,298 posts
^Isn't that the case on the alpha in Gamescom? Killing around dodo for a quest? (not it shows x/y after every kill)

I really don't mind those kind of quests, though.
____________________________

#8 Sep 26 2009 at 5:17 PM Rating: Good
***
1,159 posts
This is why I play games before I buy them as 90% of the games coming out right now are absolutely trash with 9.99% being mildly bearable.
#9 Sep 26 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
limonconcon wrote:
Bought the game, played it for about 24 hrs total, Game sucks they tried to attract the immature WOW community, of course prolly is the most profitable one but they not only fail at it but also they made a weak game with repetitive interface and quests, Im lvl 21 and I feel like I been killing the same sh*t over and over, The maps are completely small with the same visible path going all around the map Its only about 20 maps, I will say AION is no more then a cheap copy of WOW with amazing graphics, DONT make ffxi any similar to WOW please, Creators STOP trying to move the WOW KIDS around they not leaving and you guys are failing on the MMORPG creation.

And for the people that hate the Slow paste of FFXI and the HNMs taking so **** long to pop but with amazing fights and the partying system, Go play another MMORPG for a while and watch how the FFXI bug pinches you again.
Im actually gonna create a new TARU today seens I gave mine away.

Thank you for reading.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 6:36pm by limonconcon

The OP in its current form appears to be telling people that Aion sucks and not to play it and that you want Final Fantasy 11 not to be like it. Either this is another mistake you made at multiple places in your post, or it never should have been posted in the Final Fantasy 14 forum.

xypin wrote:
. <- This is Mr. Period.

You should make friends with Mr. Period because he wants to be friends with you. After that, go find Ms. Spellcheck, I hear she's still single.

Related material. OP: Please review this list of handy writing tips in chronological order (bottom to top).

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 7:42pm by LadyOfHolyDarkness
#10 Sep 26 2009 at 5:38 PM Rating: Default
***
1,822 posts
limonconcon wrote:
Bought the game, played it for about 24 hrs total, Game sucks they tried to attract the immature WOW community, of course prolly is the most profitable one but they not only fail at it but also they made a weak game with repetitive interface and quests, Im lvl 21 and I feel like I been killing the same sh*t over and over, The maps are completely small with the same visible path going all around the map Its only about 20 maps, I will say AION is no more then a cheap copy of WOW with amazing graphics, DONT make ffxi any similar to WOW please, Creators STOP trying to move the WOW KIDS around they not leaving and you guys are failing on the MMORPG creation.

And for the people that hate the Slow paste of FFXI and the HNMs taking so **** long to pop but with amazing fights and the partying system, Go play another MMORPG for a while and watch how the FFXI bug pinches you again.
Im actually gonna create a new TARU today seens I gave mine away.

Thank you for reading.


Spelling errors aside. I understood your point, and I agreed until this part right here.

Limonconcon wrote:
And for the people that hate the Slow paste of FFXI and the HNMs taking so **** long to pop but with amazing fights and the partying system, Go play another MMORPG for a while and watch how the FFXI bug pinches you again.


I know I'm taking it a bit out of context, but we've all been down this road dozens of times. No one wants the 24 hour pop timers and 3 hour windows again. And you can pretty much bet your life on the fact that SE won't be doing that in FFXIV. I believe they even said they planned to make most end game -including HNM's and such- instanced in a recent interview.

I agree, no one should try to copy WoW. And for those of you who didn't play it, all Aion is, is a carbon copy of Lineage 2 with more shinnies. In fact, the graphics in Lineage 2 when completely maxed out look better than Aion. NCsoft develops about 4-5 new MMORPG's a year, and they usually all fail. They've just been marketing the **** out of Aion. The only good one they made, which even at that had a very dumb end game system, was Lineage 2.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 6:39pm by EndlessJourney
____________________________
Long Live Vana Diel.
#11 Sep 26 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
**
516 posts
Ok the thing about Aion. Yes it is grindy and based around quest all throught the game BUT its a god **** korean mmo and frankly a lot of people like to grind believe it or not and there are other things to do but you have not even tried aparently. End game is a lot different obviously but I won't go into that.

Aion community right now does have a lot of WoW kids but thankfully a good amount of them should leave soon and go back to WoW because thats how a lot of them are. If you can't find decent people within the game well maybe thats your problem.
____________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/loltarupup

My channel with FFXI battle music and hard to find songs that were not even released on Original Soundtracks.

I also plan on uploading FFXIV music when the game is released.
#12 Sep 26 2009 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
Personally, i like Aion. It has a lot of upsides when compared to other MMO's. This got me a little ..... 24 hours? Really? I'm amazed you would play any MMO if that's the amount of time you put into rating a game.

Anyway, This is FFXIV forum, so /derail off.
#13 Sep 26 2009 at 6:49 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
3,317 posts
Can't say I agree with the OP. At all. On anything. I'm having a great time playing Aion right now and I certainly wouldn't call it a "cheap copy of WoW". You're gonna find repetition in any game, though I haven't seen it any Aion nearly as bad as the OP would make it out to be.

I'm still looking forward to FFXIV, (despite troubling lack of pet info) but at this point I'd register republican before I played FFXI again.
#14 Sep 26 2009 at 7:43 PM Rating: Excellent
*
145 posts
Quote:
. <- This is Mr. Period.


there is no such thing as a Mr. Period.... just a realy angry Mrs. Period.
#15 Sep 26 2009 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
134 posts
xypin wrote:
Even though there are problems with FFXI, it does not follow the WoW formula
Edited, Sep 26th 2009 5:48pm by xypin


I sure hope not sense FF11 came out atleast 2-3 years before WoW <_<
#16 Sep 26 2009 at 9:53 PM Rating: Excellent
Prettier Than You
*****
12,966 posts
Kejuhdai wrote:
And the fact that Aion's equivalent of Priest's first spell was called "Smite". Yes, really.
In all fairness, when approaching a healing class with a holy stature, there really isn't a whole lot of variety you can work with when naming spells and abilities, haha.
____________________________
Did you lose faith?
Yes, I lost faith in the powers that be.
But in doing so I came across the will to disagree.
And I gave up. Yes, I gave up, and then I gave in.
But I take responsibility for every single sin. ♪ ♫


Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#17 Sep 26 2009 at 11:43 PM Rating: Excellent
**
424 posts
If kids who eat normal paste in kindergarten end up pretty much normal...

Then what does a kid like the OP who prefers 'slow paste' end up like?

____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#18 Sep 27 2009 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
Been testing some Aion myself and it does make me appreciate the good things in XI.

A few examples:

- The treasure pool. It is great not having to click on corpses (especially if you are attempting to attack the mob next to the corpse)
- No repetition of skills. So annoying to get "Super move II" and then "Super move III" and they are only the same with about an increase of 10-15 damage from the previous move.
- Chat. XI chat seems much less spammy, probably because shouts are area restricted and channels seem to be whole zone.
- Party HP bars. It is so much more compressed in XI and doesn't cover much of the screen.


Funny enough it seems to just be minor things FFXI did right.
#19 Sep 27 2009 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
*
135 posts
Seriha wrote:
I'm still waiting for the alternatives from people who slam "Fetch X item for me!" or "Kill Y of Z mob!" type quests. Until then, **** near every MMO is gonna be the same.


How about "Fetch X monster for me!" or "Kill Y of Z item!" type quests? I've never seen those used before.
____________________________
Ronixis - Bahamut
99DNC 99NIN 99PUP 99BST 97SCH 95SAM
#20 Sep 27 2009 at 4:29 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Limitations with quests tend to revolve around limitations on the gameplay foundation. When your entire world is just an environment with monsters that drop items running around on it, no, there's not a lot you can do. That's why MMOs need to move beyond making environments just prettier and expand them to actually be more interactive.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#21 Sep 27 2009 at 6:05 PM Rating: Decent
*
90 posts
I like Aion. It's the only other MMO i've played other than FFXI, and it's very different, but it's fun too me. If your looking for a FFXI copy, then it isn't for you. It'll easily hold me over till FFXIV comes out though.
____________________________
Scientists have discovered that saliva actually causes cancer. But only when swallowing small amounts over a long period of time
#22 Sep 27 2009 at 11:41 PM Rating: Decent
**
424 posts
Quote:
I like Aion. It's the only other MMO i've played other than FFXI


That's why you like it. It's very different from FFXI.

If I started up Aion having FFXI be my only other MMO experience I would love it. Unfortunately I play WoW too... and I am getting bored with WoW, but bliz gives me just enough to keep playing. Aion just felt like WoW with wings and without the large playerbase or established content.
____________________________
Administrator Kaolian:
"Quote it correctly or don't quote it. That's called "how people get banned"..."

Actually it's called "Libel"... and only if it is fabricated, but hey, you are the admin.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant:
"They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic."
#23 Sep 28 2009 at 2:25 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
253 posts
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Slow paste



This part really killed me.


More to the point, I think the OP ate too much paste as a kid. Second I'm willing to bet that the OP never even played Aion let alone went out and purchased it. He could have played any of the CB/OB for free.

____________________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
We are the BLU. Lower your shields and power down your weapons. You will be assimilated. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile
#24 Sep 28 2009 at 4:58 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
813 posts
I can understand if some people don't like Aion. I can understand if some people don't like FFXI. I can understand that some people don't like a certain game. That's totally fine, but there's a big difference between not liking something and portraying as if it's crap. This post isn't to say that Aion is better or worse than FFXI, simply showing what Aion is like and to compare with FFXI.

Quote:
Im lvl 21 and I feel like I been killing the same sh*t over and over

First of all, level 21 is still pretty low. If compared to FFXI, it's probably equivalent to say about level 30. So it's a bit silly to consider a game is bad when you haven't really reached the core of the game itself.

Yes, there are similar type mobs that you have to kill to get to level 21 in Aion, but it's the same in most/any MMO (in FFXI, we kill a lot of rabbits and crabs and worms). You'd probably feel that way in Aion because there are so many quests in there that when you kill similar type of mobs, you kinda feel "not these guys again" while if you actually count the number of mobs you killed, I can guarantee that they are less than in FFXI (e.g.: quest to get 10 drops from mob X will see you probably killing only 11-15 mob Xs while in a 2-hr EXP PT in FFXI you can kill 50-100 mobs of the same type)

Quote:
The maps are completely small with the same visible path going all around the map Its only about 20 maps,

Not sure where you got the "maps are completely small" from. I actually think that they feel larger than FFXI's when compared one area against one area. FFXI's might feel larger to you because FFXI characters actually move slower than Aion's (I'd say Aion's move like wearing aketon in home nation).

Around 20 maps sound about right, but also remember that this game is only about 1 year old (counting Korea's launch) and has zero expansion. If you take away ZM, CoP, ToAU, and WoTG areas, FFXI probably only have about 20 areas too.

Quote:
I will say AION is no more then a cheap copy of WOW with amazing graphics,

I don't play WoW, so I can't say whether it's actually the same or not, but as far as I know, Aion's main selling points are the aerial combat and PvPvE. Both of which are not in WoW (yet?). To say that Aion is a copy of WoW based on the quest system and UI seems a bit misguided.

Quote:
Its a @#%^ing korean MMO, they're grindy.

You'd probably want to research a bit. Aion is not exactly "grindy" especially when compared to the typical Korean MMO (Lineage comes to mind). Aion actually uses quest system like WoW where you go do quests and get EXP reward instead of grinding by killing the same mobs over and over again until you ding and then repeat with a different mob.

Not bashing FFXI here because I love and still play FFXI now, but when you think about it, FFXI is probably more grindy than Aion because in FFXI, you just kill stuff over and over again to EXP instead of doing quests with EXP reward. As far as I understand, the term "grinding" is meant to describe when you gain EXP by just repeatedly killing the same mobs over and over again which is what FFXI is doing though in EXP PT form instead of solo.

Quote:
I watched my friend play this game when it went online at head-start for the people who pre-ordered it.
Some things really irked me... Like how the chat was "[1. General] Scar: lololol" and "[3. FindGroup] Coolguy: hey hey". And in all the same colors as WoW. Come on, really? Have some imagination.

Your friend might want to customize the chatbox instead of turning ALL on. Aion's chatbox is actually quite useful because the channels separate people with their intention. You want to sell/buy/trade items? Go on channel 2. You looking for party/member? Turn on channel 3. Only want to read your legion chat? Customize things! That way people don't just shout on top of each other with one person shouting to sell stuff while another shouting for members while another shouting about their grandma and stuff.

Quote:
I'm still waiting for the alternatives from people who slam "Fetch X item for me!" or "Kill Y of Z mob!" type quests. Until then, **** near every MMO is gonna be the same.

Exactly. I really don't mind those quests. I do wish that there are more variety in the monsters that we have to kill so it's not too repeatable.

Quote:
And for those of you who didn't play it, all Aion is, is a carbon copy of Lineage 2 with more shinnies.

Do you actually play Aion? I'm surprised at how silly that comment is because Aion is by no means copy of Lineage 2. Did you make that comment only because Aion is Korean MMO?

Quote:
- The treasure pool. It is great not having to click on corpses (especially if you are attempting to attack the mob next to the corpse)
- No repetition of skills. So annoying to get "Super move II" and then "Super move III" and they are only the same with about an increase of 10-15 damage from the previous move.
- Chat. XI chat seems much less spammy, probably because shouts are area restricted and channels seem to be whole zone.
- Party HP bars. It is so much more compressed in XI and doesn't cover much of the screen.

+ You don't have to click on corpses to get loot. There's a button for it. The moment the mob died, press that button to loot while using your mouse to click the next mob you want to attack.

+ While it is true that there are "Super Move II" then "Super Move III", there are more variety in Aion's character skill than in FFXI. For example: THF/NIN will probably only use Utsu, SA, TA, WS (a few more if merited and need to use) while level 16 Assassin in Aion can easily use 10 different skills in a single fight. Also, "Super Move III" LV1 is only 10-15 damage higher than "Super Move II" LV9, but obviously "Super Move III" will go to LV9 and then end up being around 50% stronger than "Super Move II" LV9.

+ Chatbox can be customized. It can be way more spammy than FFXI or way less spammy than FFXI, depending on your customization and preference.

+ I agree with this though someday I might get used to Aion's HP bars. I'm still not used to it and sometimes feel like looking at bottom right corner like in FFXI. ><!

Quote:
That's why MMOs need to move beyond making environments just prettier and expand them to actually be more interactive.

You can actually sit on the bench in Aion! Not by using /sit command either.

Looking at FFXIV TGS trailer, I sure wish we can just sit down at the tavern or something. Interaction with the environment is something that would be fun to add into the game. Need to be able to sit down on the bench, maybe drink water from waterfall (no, no peeing into the waterfall!) or pick flowers up and so on.
#25 Sep 28 2009 at 7:44 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
777 posts
Vaagan wrote:
Quote:
- No repetition of skills. So annoying to get "Super move II" and then "Super move III" and they are only the same with about an increase of 10-15 damage from the previous move.

+ While it is true that there are "Super Move II" then "Super Move III", there are more variety in Aion's character skill than in FFXI. For example: THF/NIN will probably only use Utsu, SA, TA, WS (a few more if merited and need to use) while level 16 Assassin in Aion can easily use 10 different skills in a single fight. Also, "Super Move III" LV1 is only 10-15 damage higher than "Super Move II" LV9, but obviously "Super Move III" will go to LV9 and then end up being around 50% stronger than "Super Move II" LV9.

This is one of the things that has consistantly annoyed me in many RPGs.

Why do we need to keep around low ranks of spell? If you want to upgrade the graphics, can't you replace the old version of the spell? If you aren't upgrading the graphics, why isn't it scaling with your stats like melee attacks?

I always thought it was silly when a Black Mage in a Final Fantasy game, has like, 3 usable spells -aga spells, out of 10 or so damaging spells for a lot of the game... Then they get flare and meteor, and only have 1 usable spell out of 20-30 spells.

What's the point? Why fill up my spellbook with a ton of abilities that are useless because they are direct downgrades from another ability?
____________________________
KUMQUATS
#26 Sep 28 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,842 posts
I don't know what the OP is talking. I'm actually liking Aion and I hate MMO's from S. Korea.

My friend put it best when he said it was like WoW and FFXI had a child because there is alot of elements from both games. If all your doing is grinding levels then you are missing half the game right there. Slow down and take you time. It's not a race to be the uber dork.

If you want a real challenge don't read any guides and just try to learns thing for yourself.

Not picking on you but...
Quote:
I always thought it was silly when a Black Mage in a Final Fantasy game, has like, 3 usable spells -aga spells, out of 10 or so damaging spells for a lot of the game... Then they get flare and meteor, and only have 1 usable spell out of 20-30 spells.

What's the point? Why fill up my spellbook with a ton of abilities that are useless because they are direct downgrades from another ability?
Well for one they cost less mana. FFXI as an example if you have Cure I ~ IV and your tank only needs 180hp why waste mana over healiing when you can just cast Cure II?

Edited, Sep 28th 2009 11:48am by dyvidd
____________________________
FFXIV Dyvid (Awaiting 2.0)
FFXI Dyvid ~ Pandemonium (Retired)
SWTOR Dy'vid Legacy - Canderous Ordo
#27 Sep 28 2009 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
Well for one they cost less mana. FFXI as an example if you have Cure I ~ IV and your tank only needs 180hp why waste mana over healiing when you can just cast Cure II?


Personally I'm a fan of a system that allows you to expend the level of mana that you want to increase the spell effect accordingly. It's a small addition that can add quite a bit of depth to an otherwise mashy combat system.

I actually think Aion looks pretty good. Unfortunately I just never could get behind the keyboard and mouse interface. I've been a gamer grown on controllers for far too long (and I'm going to die if they don't come out with a netplay controller equivalent for XIV). But if I weren't patient enough to wait for XIV, I would probably give it a shot.

Blade and Soul also looks pretty good. I'm keeping an eye on it in case XIV doesn't pan out for me.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#28 Sep 28 2009 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
813 posts
Quote:
I always thought it was silly when a Black Mage in a Final Fantasy game, has like, 3 usable spells -aga spells, out of 10 or so damaging spells for a lot of the game... Then they get flare and meteor, and only have 1 usable spell out of 20-30 spells.

As mentioned by dyvidd, the MP cost is obviously different. So it's not just about upgrading graphics. This works for two main situations. One is when you don't have enough MP to cast the strongest spell, and the other is when there is no need to cast the strongest spell (e.g.: mob too low level, mob has low HP left and about to die).

Quote:
If all your doing is grinding levels then you are missing half the game right there. Slow down and take you time. It's not a race to be the uber dork.

I'd like to add that doing quests and missions are probably the most efficient way to level up just because of how much EXP is rewarded at the end of the quests and missions. Grinding is actually quite slow.
#29 Sep 28 2009 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
7 posts
Well sorry if my grammar prolly killed a few of you guys, Im trying my best on a language that is not my native one; I'm not trying to convince anybody to not buy AION or any such thing; Im just sharing my experience with the mmorpg, Im level 26 right now because I took the advice to get it to lvl 25+ and get into the abyss and god this is so **** boring Its always the same you dnt need the INTELLIGENCE and game knowledge that you do need in ffxi to do stuff, like when to cast gravity or bind a Notorious M soloing as a rdm or how to keep hate w/o dying as a pld on byakko, I have a million examples, I was a solo RDM my self and Im really looking for that mmorpg that gives me the exciment of thinking and paying attention on the log and cast stuff for the diferent situations of the fight. In this kind of games a 10 yrs old can easily kill a supper mega boss cause all they have to do is DPS at it, I miss the using my brains at the game; Bring a 18 little kid to this game and they will do fine and they will get the best different color named gears, and bcarful to not remove the color of the name cause I bet half of them wont know which gear is better then the other and lets not talk about gear requirement situations, but now bring those same 18 little kids to kill idk, tiamat, I bet you that tehy wont last to see it at 95% of health and thats what I mean with another cheap copy of wow. basically every company is trying to take a bite of the WOW community and thats why they making lame little kids mmorpg and I dnt want that to happn to FFXIV.

And at FFXI you dnt need to make your characters life around quests, because they dnt give you any exp and I think thats the most beautiful thing ever.

Also the need of a party its what makes the community the best one around.

Thank you for reading and sorry again about mr period and ms grammar, I prolly did the same sh*t again.

And I will like to also add that "grinding" its what really gives you a skill in a game not receiving 70k exp for bringin 4 collected magic mushrooms from the floors of the magic kingdom. Thats why I think that making grinding fun and not easy as 1 2 3 the monster is dead its what makes the difference on a mmorpg.

PD: If you played AION and didnt say "WTF how can they be so cheap" about the way you collect items(iron, silver, wood, fruits, fishing) I dnt wanna talk to you, btw you need the same skill for them all SO Fing cheap and not smart, more stupid then the chat system.

Edited, Sep 28th 2009 7:21pm by limonconcon
____________________________
eva!!!
#30 Sep 28 2009 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,079 posts
You're likely not doing insane RDM solos at 25, so it's not exactly fair to compare similar to Aion at lower levels, or better yet, try to solo a level appropriate elite on something without binds or cures. I've also been playing the past week and currently have my Gladiator at 28. There are aspects I like. There are aspects I don't like. However, some are merely facets of a game in its infancy while others should just be getting over the fact it ISN'T a game we know, despite similarities.

Funny thing about game difficulty is you can often choose to challenge yourself in a manner beyond the general design of a situation. Fight too easy? Don't use a cure above III. Mob dies too quickly? Use a weaker weapon. Mission is cake with six? How about a duo? Whatever the situation, it's possible to find like-minded individuals. However, I won't say it'll be easy in any given circumstance and a lot of people are realistically looking to get through aspects of a game they don't enjoy as quickly as possible.

That said, creating a WoW clone isn't a good thing. On the other hand, neither is creating an XI clone. Doing that is a surefire way to guarantee another sub-500k userbase where a lot of XI veterans are jaded while those who got scared off before likely won't be inclined to try the next entry if they're told it's more of the same. Frankly, I'm sick of people looking at XI as some little MMO country club where only the distinguished belong and anyone who plays another game is the proverbial riffraff. I'm sure it happens on the other side, too. Regardless, the devils I do know are not the ones to be catered to.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#31 Sep 28 2009 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
813 posts
Quote:
and god this is so **** boring Its always the same you dnt need the INTELLIGENCE and game knowledge that you do need in ffxi to do stuff, like when to cast gravity or bind a Notorious M soloing as a rdm

I don't quite understand you. Do you mean kiting/soloing = intelligence? Kiting/soloing is pretty much a repetition of doing the same thing over and over again (grav, bind, DoT or sleep, nuke) and somehow that is not boring? I'm not saying that kiting is boring or not, it's up to you to decide how you feel about it, but when the two things are pretty much the same and yet you put FFXI on such high pedestal, it's a bit silly and childish.

Quote:
or how to keep hate w/o dying as a pld on byakko,

What class are you playing in Aion? Not Templar? How many and what bosses have you fought there that is roughly equivalent to tanking Byakko? Zero and no idea? It's silly to compare tanking Byakko with the things in Aion when you're only level 26. That's like comparing tanking Byakko and tanking VE.

Quote:
I was a solo RDM my self and Im really looking for that mmorpg that gives me the exciment of thinking and paying attention on the log and cast stuff for the diferent situations of the fight.

You're probably confusing two different things. In FFXI, if you solo RDM, you can kill stuff but it takes quite a while to kill mobs. In Aion, because of the game is solo-friendly unlike FFXI, soloing obviously takes much shorter time. You confuse this as being "easier" while in reality it's simply "quicker" because in the end, the method of soloing as a mage itself is the same (bind/grav/nuke/dot/etc).

Quote:
In this kind of games a 10 yrs old can easily kill a supper mega boss cause all they have to do is DPS at it

Again, exaggeration to the max. No way you can beat a boss just by DPS if solo. Without tank/healer support, you'd have to pay attention to alot of different things. Chaining skills would come into mind as certain skills have different branches of chain which you'd need to know which branch to use in which situation. When to stun, when to move around, when to use this skill over that skill, etc. Just because a game is solo-friendly doesn't mean that it's easy difficulty. Not to mention that most bosses have lackeys nearby or linking with them.

Quote:
And at FFXI you dnt need to make your characters life around quests, because they dnt give you any exp and I think thats the most beautiful thing ever.

So the most beautiful thing ever = killing the same thing over and over again in EXP PT? Yet you complained about killing the same thing over and over again to reach level 21 in Aion? I can understand if you like EXP PT instead of soloing, but when you don't realize that the two things are the same and put FFXI on high pedestal, you just look silly and childish. (note: you can actually go on EXP PT in Aion and play it like FFXI if you want to)

Quote:
Also the need of a party its what makes the community the best one around.

It can be a good thing or a bad thing. Level sync helps a lot and I hope they keep that in FF XIV.

Quote:
Thats why I think that making grinding fun and not easy as 1 2 3 the monster is dead its what makes the difference on a mmorpg.

You mean the merit parties with 100+ chain that kill mobs in 30 secs aren't "easy as 1 2 3 the monster is dead"? Again with the pedestal, man. Keep on going and see how far you can contradict yourself.

Quote:
PD: If you played AION and didnt say "WTF how can they be so cheap" about the way you collect items(iron, silver, wood, fruits, fishing) I dnt wanna talk to you, btw you need the same skill for them all SO Fing cheap and not smart, more stupid then the chat system.

I don't quite understand what's so cheap and not smart about it. No offense btw, you're level 26 and you don't even realize that there are TWO different collecting skills? You got your wings at level 10 and you should realize that you can collect stuff on the ground and on the sky which require different skills.

It's totally fine if you like FFXI and dislike Aion. Everyone has their own preference, but please be more reasonable about it and not just based on fanboy-ism to diss one while getting ****** from the other.
#32limonconcon, Posted: Sep 28 2009 at 4:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Bro lets be realistic and 100% sincere(idk if I spell it right), AION is not gonna be a game that will last 7+ years like FFXI or WOW , Is just another korean mmorpg that will die as soon as they get another one with the same marketing around. AION is no more then a pair of wings, nottin is catching my attention more then the wings.
#33 Sep 28 2009 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,141 posts
I don't want it to be like Aion either. I want it to be like FFXIV.
____________________________
Striveldt

FFXIV: Lancer, Fisher, Culinarian
FFXI: DRK 55, WAR 30, THF 27, DRG 27 (all retired)
WoW: Hunter 70, Warrior 29, Druid 26, Warlock 22, Shaman 19 (all retired)
EQII: Shadowknight 36 (retired)
#34 Sep 28 2009 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
GuardianFaith wrote:
Quote:
Slow paste


This part really killed me.


I'm still dying. Partially from the laughing, partially from the crying.
____________________________


#35 Sep 29 2009 at 4:05 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
813 posts
Quote:
Bro lets be realistic and 100% sincere(idk if I spell it right), AION is not gonna be a game that will last 7+ years like FFXI or WOW , Is just another korean mmorpg that will die as soon as they get another one with the same marketing around.

"Bro", let's be realistic and do some little research around before you say things like this. Aion might or might not last for 7 years, we don't know because we can't predict the future, but one thing we do know for sure is that Lineage (a Korean MMORPG in case you don't know) was released in 1998, is still alive in 2009, and has more subscribers than FFXI. That's an 11 year old Korean MMORPG and it's still alive. Not to diss FFXI, but I honestly can't see FFXI being well alive in 4 years time especially when FFXIV is going to be released next year. Servers might still be up, but there aren't going to be that many people playing.

You need to understand that just because you don't like a game doesn't really mean that the game is crap. You need to understand that even if Aion failed in the western world, it still has a lot of eastern players in it that would most likely keep the game alive and profitable for quite a long time. Most importantly, you need to understand that your inability to understand Aion's gameplay is probably putting you at the same group as those "10 year old kids" that you hate so much.

Quote:
Also the need of a party its what makes the community the best one around.

Surely the best community around wouldn't have someone silly like you in it.
#36 Sep 29 2009 at 6:48 AM Rating: Default
**
427 posts
limonconcon wrote:
Bought the game, played it for about 24 hrs total, Game sucks they tried to attract the immature WOW community, of course prolly is the most profitable one but they not only fail at it but also they made a weak game with repetitive interface and quests, Im lvl 21 and I feel like I been killing the same sh*t over and over, The maps are completely small with the same visible path going all around the map Its only about 20 maps, I will say AION is no more then a cheap copy of WOW with amazing graphics, DONT make ffxi any similar to WOW please, Creators STOP trying to move the WOW KIDS around they not leaving and you guys are failing on the MMORPG creation.

And for the people that hate the Slow paste of FFXI and the HNMs taking so **** long to pop but with amazing fights and the partying system, Go play another MMORPG for a while and watch how the FFXI bug pinches you again.
Im actually gonna create a new TARU today seens I gave mine away.

Thank you for reading.


Yeah it sounds like your an expert on the game Mr. 24 hour
Not even review sites try to crank out reviews that quickly.
There's alot of WoW clones out there I admit, but some of them are actually fun. The reason why they copy WoW is because it's incredibly successful and other companies want a piece of the pie so they follow that formula. By altering the formula a bit they can create a game with a different atmosphere but is still as fun or more fun (just not as popular) as WoW, what's so bad about that?
____________________________
------------------------
Boxerz- Midgardsomr 75 BRD, 75 SAM, 75 DRG.......... Retired

#37 Sep 29 2009 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
**
629 posts
Vaagan wrote:
Quote:
The maps are completely small with the same visible path going all around the map Its only about 20 maps,

Not sure where you got the "maps are completely small" from. I actually think that they feel larger than FFXI's when compared one area against one area. FFXI's might feel larger to you because FFXI characters actually move slower than Aion's (I'd say Aion's move like wearing aketon in home nation).

Around 20 maps sound about right, but also remember that this game is only about 1 year old (counting Korea's launch) and has zero expansion. If you take away ZM, CoP, ToAU, and WoTG areas, FFXI probably only have about 20 areas too.


FFXI pre-expansion had 56 zones. Zilart added 27. Therefore the first FFXI that NA players received had 83 zones total.

I played Aion in the CB and OB. I managed to get fairly deep into the game *quite a bit further than the OP*. I can attest to Aion being a WoW rehash. More importantly, though, as with WoW, Aion didn't have that pull that FFXI seems to have IMO. You do everything that you're supposed to do, but it just doesn't feel like you're really doing anything. WoW and all forms of it *aion included* failed to give me the really attached feeling that FFXI gave me.

Like someone already mentioned, the gamescom demo of FFXIV appeared to be a lot like Aion and WoW. I hope that this is something that's only a fleeting misunderstanding on my part due to seeing the game at a very early stage of development.

Someone asked for a suggestion of a different system than "kill x number of z mob" and "Find Y number of this item". I proposed to my LS this: A bounty style hunting system. The system I imagine could be very dynamic and interactive. Simply put, like in FFXII, there are forums where bounties are placed. These could be placed by both NPCs*static* or other players*dynamic*. Players accept the challenge to bring the head of the monster requested. As far as NPC posted hunts, they would be there constantly. For player posted hunts, however, there would be a time frame *perhaps 3 RL days* after which, if the players hunt hasn't been successfully completed by another player/group then the poster would have to repost. There would be a fee to post that would vary depending on the intended target and reward type/quantity. For realism, the system could be restricted by limiting a target to being a mob that the poster has faced before.

Different systems are possible. People just have to think of them.
#38 Sep 29 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,416 posts
Quote:
For player posted hunts, however, there would be a time frame *perhaps 3 RL days* after which, if the players hunt hasn't been successfully completed by another player/group then the poster would have to repost. There would be a fee to post that would vary depending on the intended target and reward type/quantity. For realism, the system could be restricted by limiting a target to being a mob that the poster has faced before.

Different systems are possible. People just have to think of them.

I like this idea and would love to see something like this in place for craft materials. A poster places a bounty up and the first person to complete it obtains the bounty and the craft item gets sent to the poster. Seems like a feasible way to gain experience hunting mobs and make a little extra gil in the process all while helping to promote and facilitate crafting. Win/Win?
____________________________
Abort, Retry, Fail?
TeamAFK!

/equip Head Knowledge
You gain the latent effect of Power.
#39 Sep 29 2009 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
813 posts
Quote:
FFXI pre-expansion had 56 zones. Zilart added 27. Therefore the first FFXI that NA players received had 83 zones total.

You are right with the numbers, but there are a few things I'd like to mention about this.
1. The numbers are "inflated" because FFXI uses 3 starting nations and thus, most of the zones had to be made three times (e.g.: La Theine is pretty much the same as Tahrongi is pretty much the same as Konschtat, etc).
2. The numbers are also "inflated" because you are counting BC areas that aren't exactly "areas".
3. The numbers are again "inflated" because FFXI uses zoning system while Aion uses seamless world. (e.g.: East/West Ronfaure could easily be one same map. Jugner Forest + Davoi could easily be one same map, etc)

So while on the paper FFXI original areas have 56 zones, in practice it's much closer to 20 (which is still more than Aion's practical number of about 10-13).

Quote:
More importantly, though, as with WoW, Aion didn't have that pull that FFXI seems to have IMO. You do everything that you're supposed to do, but it just doesn't feel like you're really doing anything. WoW and all forms of it *aion included* failed to give me the really attached feeling that FFXI gave me.

This is one thing that I find really interesting. Sometimes I feel that FFXI fans are falling to same category as Suikoden fans. For those who don't know, Suikoden is a traditional console RPG made by Konami about 108 Stars of Destiny. It's somewhat popular (like FFXI) but nowhere as popular as Final Fantasy series (like WOW). Many Suikoden fans are disappointed with many other RPGs (including Final Fantasy series) because those games don't have "Suikoden feel". The interesting is that there is no single Suikoden fan who can actually describe what "Suikoden feel" really is.

Similarity I find with FFXI fan is that there seem to be an invisible factor that made these fans love FFXI and somehow prevented them to like another MMORPG because they aren't like FFXI. I can understand if you and the OP like FFXI more than Aion. There's nothing wrong with that because everyone has different preference, but I just find that interesting.

I don't mean to be rude to these group of FFXI and Suikoden fans, but at times I can only feel that the so called "Suikoden feel" or "FFXI charm" is nothing more than fanboy/fangirl-ism because they strongly like the game and feel attached to it without being able to explain why the same (or better) thing offered in other games failing to attach them. Note that there's nothing wrong either with being a fanboy or fangirl of a certain thing. You like them, that's fine. But sometimes I feel a bit sad because it prevents them to enjoy other games' good points.

Quote:
Someone asked for a suggestion of a different system than "kill x number of z mob" and "Find Y number of this item". I proposed to my LS this: A bounty style hunting system. The system I imagine could be very dynamic and interactive. Simply put, like in FFXII, there are forums where bounties are placed. These could be placed by both NPCs*static* or other players*dynamic*. Players accept the challenge to bring the head of the monster requested. As far as NPC posted hunts, they would be there constantly. For player posted hunts, however, there would be a time frame *perhaps 3 RL days* after which, if the players hunt hasn't been successfully completed by another player/group then the poster would have to repost. There would be a fee to post that would vary depending on the intended target and reward type/quantity. For realism, the system could be restricted by limiting a target to being a mob that the poster has faced before.

Of course it is possible, but it's pretty much the same thing. You're just replacing "kill 5 Baby Rabbits" with "kill 1 Boss Rabbit". You're just replacing "Quest NPC" or "Field Manual" with "Bounty Poster". They are practically the same with what we already have.

And ultimately, this system is by no means able to replace the "kill X number of Z mobs" or "Find Y number of this item" because even the bounty system would end up being repetitive as well which would "bore" people. Not to mention that FoV's "Field Parchment" is basically the same as NPC-posted bounty.

It can also pose problem of who can take the bounty. Let's say I put up "Kill Byakko" bounty. So who's going to do it for me, limited only to one person (first come first serve) or everyone can do it? Either way, each option comes with big problems to maintain balance. Limiting to one person would beat the point because most players would miss out. Allowing everyone to do it can cause issue with the reward (you might be able to pay someone to kill Byakko, but if 100 people killed Byakko, you might not have enough money to pay them all).

If we look at FFXII itself, the bounty system is basically there as "sidequests" mainly for gear, you still "level up" by killing X number of Z mobs throughout the game. So in closing, the bounty system is definitely not a practical and feasible replacement of the traditional system. However, it is a nice addition to distract people for a while. This is basically already implemented in most (MMO)RPGs though in different forms.
#40CupDeNoodles, Posted: Sep 29 2009 at 3:34 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Man, I really hope English isn't your first language OP.
#41 Sep 29 2009 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
You're just replacing "kill 5 Baby Rabbits" with "kill 1 Boss Rabbit".


Just to nitpick this one thing, they're very different. In nearly any game, the degree to which killing one boss is more exciting than killing five regular enemies is obviously strongly in favor of the boss fight. And really, the purpose of killing five regular enemies is usually only to build up to the boss, so when you ONLY have the five regular enemies, you're really sucking the excitement out of the game's potential.

This was one of the biggest mistakes FFXI ever made. They even knew as early as beta that there were mob shortages. What they should have done was removed the cap on xp and have mobs yield exponentially more xp from the highest level party member. This would have encouraged longer, more epic, challenging battles and mob shortages would never occur. In retrospect it's one the the dumbest design decisions I have ever seen in light of how much more incredible the game could have been with such a simple move.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#42 Sep 29 2009 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
813 posts
Quote:
Just to nitpick this one thing, they're very different. In nearly any game, the degree to which killing one boss is more exciting than killing five regular enemies is obviously strongly in favor of the boss fight. And really, the purpose of killing five regular enemies is usually only to build up to the boss, so when you ONLY have the five regular enemies, you're really sucking the excitement out of the game's potential.

Just to clarify so you don't misunderstand. Boss fight is exciting because of the rarity. The first time you fight Byakko, it was exciting. Fast forward a few years and you'll feel that your 100th Byakko fight isn't as exciting. It might still be fun because you're killing it with your friends, but it's definitely not exciting anymore. When the bounty system is suggested as an idea, the boss fight is no longer a rarity, instead it becomes the norm because everyone will be doing these bounty hunts. Thus, killing the Boss Rabbit is becoming as (not) exciting as killing 5 Baby Rabbits. That's what I meant when I said what you quoted.

Quote:
This was one of the biggest mistakes FFXI ever made. They even knew as early as beta that there were mob shortages. What they should have done was removed the cap on xp and have mobs yield exponentially more xp from the highest level party member. This would have encouraged longer, more epic, challenging battles and mob shortages would never occur. In retrospect it's one the the dumbest design decisions I have ever seen in light of how much more incredible the game could have been with such a simple move.

I'm a bit torn on this matter. I do agree that it's a bit stupid to always give EXP between 0-200s (excluding chain). It's probably more because of the EXP required to level up rather than anything else though.

At the same time, I don't think it's such a bright idea to encourage longer, more epic battles. To me, they got it right with the battle length in a sense that longer and epic battles are mainly saved for "BC missions" or end-game NMs. If normal fight is so long, and because FFXI is an EXP PT grindfest game, it'd be waaaaaay to drawn out and it'd just become a waste of time rather than being epic. Epic fights aren't mean to occur on every battle and that's what makes it epic.

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 8:56pm by Vaagan
#43 Sep 29 2009 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
Boss fight is exciting because of the rarity.


No, it's the challenge, not the rarity. It's no fun the 100th time because the fight is figured out (and Byakko in particular is not hard to "figure out"... for me it was boring before the tenth time).

But I've fought certain bosses nearly 50 times and it was exciting each time, mostly because I lost 48 of the 50 times.

*If you need 10,000 exp for a level, which of these sounds more fun?
Fighting 50 weak monsters for 200 xp each at 1 minute each?
Fighting 5 strong monsters for 2,000 xp each for 10 minutes each?

Now even if you want to argue that the latter system makes boss fights less fun because they're that much more like regular fights (which they wouldn't necessarily have to be anyway), you're still looking at a game that is much more engaging through it's majority (xping) than can ever be compensated for by a little added novelty in the rare boss fight.

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 6:11pm by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#44 Sep 29 2009 at 7:06 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
813 posts
Quote:
No, it's the challenge, not the rarity. It's no fun the 100th time because the fight is figured out (and Byakko in particular is not hard to "figure out"... for me it was boring before the tenth time).

You need to realize that "challenge" comes hand-in-hand most of the times with "rarity/frequency" because the more you fight the mob, the more likely you'd figure things out that would reduce the level of challenge presented.

Now let's move on to the next part.
Quote:
*If you need 10,000 exp for a level, which of these sounds more fun?
Fighting 50 weak monsters for 200 xp each at 1 minute each?
Fighting 5 strong monsters for 2,000 xp each for 10 minutes each?

In the first quote you mentioned that fighting Byakko is already boring to you the tenth time you fought him. Using that statement, it would mean that "Fighting 5 strong monsters for 2,000 xp each for 10 minutes each" would get boring after 2 levels which isn't exactly an exciting system to play on.

Quote:
But I've fought certain bosses nearly 50 times and it was exciting each time, mostly because I lost 48 of the 50 times.

Here's the thing, it's exciting to you (can be frustrating for others btw depending on how they look at things) because you only won twice out of 50 fights. Imagine if you won the first five times you fought, would you still find excitement in killing this boss the next 45 times? Not really.

Now if we were to use the "fight stronger monster for more exp" system, do you expect yourself to win or lose? Of course win. And by that system, you'd expect to win over and over and over again. Thus, you can't expect things to stay exciting and epic if it's not rare. The moment it turns to the norm, it's no longer exciting and epic.
#45 Sep 29 2009 at 8:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,079 posts
Sadly, the whole little bounty idea is just an iteration of kill/fetch quests (in fact, it's both in one). I can understand one being more exciting due to mob placement in a quest or potential reward, but if FFXI has taught us anything, it's that a singular source for something players want can result in some painful bottlenecking that can thwart most anyone's desire to play when going past their personal limits.

One thing I strongly believe that Aion has done right is giving EXP for gathering and synthing items. It's not much, mind you, but it's just something a little extra to encourage you to contribute to the economy in one fashion or another. I do believe they could give more EXP, but this isn't the place for that. With my Alchemy at 200 and Gathering around 240, I've probably made at least 500k EXP in 200-750 EXP chunks. However, with XIV literally making crafting a class or more in itself, I can say we'll be having the same to some degree. I just hope that the suggested durability system isn't annoying and actual item production doesn't fall to **** like it did in XI.

Otherwise, we need to remember the combat system is core to the game. What do we do with combat? Kill ****. Do the objectives vary in this? Yes. Do we actually HAVE to kill things? Sometimes not. Unfortunately, objectives will almost always fall into some variation of fetch, kill, or both. There's no way around it and it's exactly why I scratch my head when people say it makes an MMO suck.

So yeah, we've got the combat system, maybe a bit of story (to which I think too many try to oversell this as a strong point for XI), your typical fantasy elements like magic and swords, and in FF's case, throwbacks to stuff like moogles and chocobos. How DIFFERENT can these types of games actually get beyond different graphic and audio styles? PvP? PvE? Saying **** like "Aion ripped off WoW's chat log!" is stupid. Did WoW invent text? How the **** are we supposed to convey such information without a window for it? Same colors? Are you sure? Have you actually pulled up a RGB spectrometer? Did WoW invent pushing buttons to perform abilities? I mean, how dare people put those on the screen so players can click!

Vaagan pretty much hit it: fanboyism.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#46 Sep 29 2009 at 8:09 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
You need to realize that "challenge" comes hand-in-hand most of the times with "rarity/frequency" because the more you fight the mob, the more likely you'd figure things out that would reduce the level of challenge presented.


But that's exactly my point. Making fewer harder battles also reduces the predictability of those battles, and keeps them rarer.

Quote:
In the first quote you mentioned that fighting Byakko is already boring to you the tenth time you fought him. Using that statement, it would mean that "Fighting 5 strong monsters for 2,000 xp each for 10 minutes each" would get boring after 2 levels which isn't exactly an exciting system to play on.


No, because Byakko isn't actually that hard. Yes, he's strong compared to a lot of other monsters, but he's not actually that challenging because strategically he's very straightforward. But I would still rather kill Byakko's for xp than crabs, who are even easier and even more predictable. Unfortunately, I don't even have that option.

Quote:
Here's the thing, it's exciting to you (can be frustrating for others btw depending on how they look at things) because you only won twice out of 50 fights. Imagine if you won the first five times you fought, would you still find excitement in killing this boss the next 45 times? Not really.


That's not a valid comparison. I only had to fight the boss fifty times because I kept losing. If I beat him the first five times, it would only be because I actually wanted to fight him 4 more times purely out of enjoyment (actually the only reason I tried to beat him twice was just to see if I could even beat the ******* again).

Mind you, I was severely outclassed by this monster in a game that I had just picked up. In an MMO context though, I wouldn't have to fight him so I wouldn't have to be frustrated. It's not the kind of mob I would deliberately xp against because I would lose too often for it to be effective.

Quote:
Now if we were to use the "fight stronger monster for more exp" system, do you expect yourself to win or lose? Of course win. And by that system, you'd expect to win over and over and over again. Thus, you can't expect things to stay exciting and epic if it's not rare. The moment it turns to the norm, it's no longer exciting and epic.


Aha, but not quite. Because what do you do when it's "too easy" and you feel that you can get better xp from harder mobs? You keep going up until it becomes challenging enough! You are rewarded then not only with a more exciting battle, but with greater rewards.

It's related tangentially to the psychological concepts of scaffolding and achievement training. Players will for the most part innately pursue challenges that match their ability level. If they're losing too much, they'll choose something a bit easier so that they can improve, and if they're not challenged enough, they'll move on to the harder thing (this behavior could be further facilitated by in game prompts that offer these suggestions upon defeat). And there should absolutely always be something more challenging available.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Sep 29 2009 at 10:37 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
813 posts
Quote:
But that's exactly my point. Making fewer harder battles also reduces the predictability of those battles, and keeps them rarer.

Here's the thing, if you want these battles to be like EXP PT, then it won't be few. Yes it will be fewer, but the number of battles required to reach max level would still be a lot. There are only so many different types of "challenge" that you can do with these mobs. If you use them all to make different EXP mobs having different challenges, you'd run out of challenges for boss fights (may it be in form of NM or HNM or final mission fights). If the EXP mobs offer the same challenges, then they are no longer challenging because you already figure out what to do.

Quote:
No, because Byakko isn't actually that hard. Yes, he's strong compared to a lot of other monsters, but he's not actually that challenging because strategically he's very straightforward. But I would still rather kill Byakko's for xp than crabs, who are even easier and even more predictable. Unfortunately, I don't even have that option.

I don't think I want to play an MMORPG that has "strategically challenging" EXP PT mobs >< it'd be way too painful just to level up. Not to mention that such game might prevent the ability to solo anything including for farming or just for giggles.

Quote:
And there should absolutely always be something more challenging available.

I agree with the basic idea, but I'm not sure if your idea would be the way how it should be implemented. Putting up challenges just for EXP-ing seems like way over the top for me. To me, leveling up should be relaxing and casual friendly, then the end-game or instances or mission fights are where the challenge should be at.
#48 Sep 29 2009 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
Here's the thing, if you want these battles to be like EXP PT, then it won't be few. Yes it will be fewer, but the number of battles required to reach max level would still be a lot. There are only so many different types of "challenge" that you can do with these mobs. If you use them all to make different EXP mobs having different challenges, you'd run out of challenges for boss fights (may it be in form of NM or HNM or final mission fights). If the EXP mobs offer the same challenges, then they are no longer challenging because you already figure out what to do.


Believe me, I can see where that conclusion comes from having played FFXI, but it is possible to do far more with enemy units now than it was during the time XI was made. Mobs can have several times more unique attributes that need to be taken into consideration, and they can have far more complex AI.

I mean, you'd be amazed at how varied the skill levels are in a relatively simple game like chess. There are people you will never figure out how to beat. And an MMO can add so much more complexity that it's a little absurd.

Quote:
I don't think I want to play an MMORPG that has "strategically challenging" EXP PT mobs >< it'd be way too painful just to level up. Not to mention that such game might prevent the ability to solo anything including for farming or just for giggles.


But that's already all the appeal of most MMORPG, save action MMOs. Do you think that FFXI doesn't present strategic challenges in xp? That was the majority of the appeal early in the game. Unfortunately the learning curve plateaus very quickly and little additional strategy takes place. Soloing would be completely unaffected and would be entirely more possible than it was in XI. You would simply target weaker mobs.

Quote:
I agree with the basic idea, but I'm not sure if your idea would be the way how it should be implemented. Putting up challenges just for EXP-ing seems like way over the top for me. To me, leveling up should be relaxing and casual friendly, then the end-game or instances or mission fights are where the challenge should be at.


Well the good news is, you don't have to take on challenging mobs to xp in that kind of system. Your xp/hour won't be as good as someone who takes on those challenges, but you can certainly take a more relaxing pace. There's nothing -preventing- you from xping like you already do in XI, it's just removing the inability to challenge yourself and rewarding you if you do.

And I'm not sure when you started playing, but this is the natural desire that most players have. When you first went into the dunes after the release of the game, most people wanted to pull the IT++ mobs, not just so they could get a full 200xp and didn't understand how inefficient it was, but because innately they wanted to kill something really tough to kill. It's satisfying to overcome a challenge.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#49 Sep 30 2009 at 1:38 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
813 posts
Quote:
Mobs can have several times more unique attributes that need to be taken into consideration, and they can have far more complex AI.

Could you please give an example of these? I'm interested to see what could've been done and I wonder if that'd be something that appeals to me too or not.

Quote:
Do you think that FFXI doesn't present strategic challenges in xp?

I honestly don't think FFXI present strategic challenges in EXP PT. The most challenging EXP PT in the whole game is probably the dunes when you started playing and that's simply because most people don't know what to do rather than the need for strategy (what strategy can we do when we have so limited JA, spells, and gears?). Once you know how PT should behave (e.g.: puller pulls carefully and not linking stuff, mages use MP properly, tanks deals with hate control, DDs not worrying about e-peen damage, etc), it's basically always the same. Pull -> beat up -> chain -> (rest) -> repeat.

Quote:
When you first went into the dunes after the release of the game, most people wanted to pull the IT++ mobs, not just so they could get a full 200xp and didn't understand how inefficient it was, but because innately they wanted to kill something really tough to kill.

I can't say if that what you felt back then or not, but I can say that I've never felt anything like that at all. My innate feeling of wanting to killing something really tough is reserved for NMs or missions, not for EXP PT. The EXP PT mobs to me is just something that I have to do to level up and unlock all my character's abilities. It's like say playing FF VII, I don't want the random battles to be too hard because they're annoying and unimportant. I just kill those enemies to level up so I can beat the boss fight where it matters.

I'm actually quite surprised at how you think that the main appeal of a game should be the challenge as if players are constantly seeking for challenge. To me, I feel that players are actually constantly seeking for reward. Thus, rather than picking what's most challenging, they'd be picking what's most efficient/rewarding. Of course you can force players to do the most challenging to get the most reward, but I still think that it's best to leave for special occassions like missions and NMs, etc rather than an EXP PT.

I think we can just call it agree to disagree on this issue. It's just a case of preference. My idea or yours, which one is better would depend on the preference of the player.
#50 Sep 30 2009 at 2:58 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
525 posts
Seriha wrote:
I'm still waiting for the alternatives from people who slam "Fetch X item for me!" or "Kill Y of Z mob!" type quests. Until then, **** near every MMO is gonna be the same.

Edited, Sep 26th 2009 8:51pm by Seriha


Yeah, I've spent some time thinking about this actually...I would love to see a MMO where missions and levels are intertwined. Make a 30 min quest that contributes to the overall storyline of a city, or people, and have it be 1/4 or 1/10 or 1/2 your level. But there has GOT to be a better way than simply killing 8 boars and 4 rabbits.....
____________________________
I used to care about my sig. Then I got mocked and ****-hurt. I shall commence with the self-pity now.
#51 Sep 30 2009 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
Could you please give an example of these? I'm interested to see what could've been done and I wonder if that'd be something that appeals to me too or not.


Well in FFXI, it's hard to say that it could've been done. Obviously adjusting stats to allow for a more challenging battle raises the dependency on effective strategy, but as you note later on, FFXI really does not have a great deal of strategy. There's a learning curve, and once you get it, the rest is cake. And I think most people "get it" sooner than later. But my point being that there were technological limitations most likely, nevermind that XI was a little experimental.

But to answer your question, I'm not going to go into specific applications, though some obvious elements include positioning and movement applications, and increasing statistical and status numbers and relationship complexity. i.e., Water > Fire is a simple status relationship. Making that relationship less general and more specific to the situation increases strategy, particularly if it's tied to the world in some intuitive way.

Skillchains can be an example of it done poorly. Skillchains are unintuitive and simple relationships, but the sheer number of relationships adds to the complexity of the system (unfortunately doesn't make it any more strategic really, because there's no significant benefit to memorizing the ridiculous charts just so that you can pop off a few weak SCs on the fly).

Quote:
I honestly don't think FFXI present strategic challenges in EXP PT.


And I would agree. Most xp parties operate in fundamentally the same way, and the most strategic elements do not occur within the battle, but before it when assembling the party. That's a problem. But FFXI is not entirely without strategy, it's just not very complex strategy. It's "these pieces that I've handpicked can beat this piece easily in a number of ways" rather than "these pieces that I happen to have available need to be moved carefully because otherwise I'll lose."

Quote:
It's like say playing FF VII, I don't want the random battles to be too hard because they're annoying and unimportant. I just kill those enemies to level up so I can beat the boss fight where it matters.


So, a question: Would the game be better without those battles?

Quote:
I'm actually quite surprised at how you think that the main appeal of a game should be the challenge as if players are constantly seeking for challenge. To me, I feel that players are actually constantly seeking for reward. Thus, rather than picking what's most challenging, they'd be picking what's most efficient/rewarding. Of course you can force players to do the most challenging to get the most reward, but I still think that it's best to leave for special occassions like missions and NMs, etc rather than an EXP PT.


Well yes, they are -now- because those are the kinds of players that are left over. The game caters to a particular motivational orientation (or in many cases, a compulsion for perfection), which has weeded out the majority of players who have a more typical motivational orientation for playing. Put simply, there are two categories of players-- those who want to show off, and those who want to better themselves and rise to a challenge. And as we've already established, the majority of XI is not very challenging, so who leaves and who remains?

Well you might think that one group leaves and the other remains, but actually one group leaves and a big portion of the other group also leaves. And the group that remains is generally going to be less satisfied than the others.

Thing is, these are not hereditary factors either. So yes, it's a matter of preference to an extent, but human behavior is predictable in that regard. Not all preferences are subjective. Most men are attracted to women for biological and environmental reasons. There are outliers, but mostly the tendencies are predictable, and while I'm not demonizing homosexuality, I can say that overall, men prefer women for ***, and to that extent, women are better critically received by the audience in question. There are similar trends for the audience of gamers.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 20 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (20)