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#52 Sep 30 2009 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Vaagan wrote:
I honestly don't think FFXI present strategic challenges in EXP PT. The most challenging EXP PT in the whole game is probably the dunes when you started playing and that's simply because most people don't know what to do rather than the need for strategy (what strategy can we do when we have so limited JA, spells, and gears?). Once you know how PT should behave (e.g.: puller pulls carefully and not linking stuff, mages use MP properly, tanks deals with hate control, DDs not worrying about e-peen damage, etc), it's basically always the same. Pull -> beat up -> chain -> (rest) -> repeat.


I’m so bored with the ridiculous argument that FFXI doesn’t have strategic and challenging gameplay especially when it’s coming from someone who’s arguing that Aion (a WOW clone) has more to offer in that department.

Even in the best FFXI parties, the chance of getting owned by the mob or mobs is always prevalent.
I know for certain that element of danger is not evident in Aion.

In fact, if you watch these videos –
1st (Unbiased Review)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsACVBY_jb0

2nd (Templar Fight)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=690PAyYG-xk&feature=related

You’ll see that that not only is Aion really the same rehashed – see a monster – click a monster – mash your action bar - watch a monster die gameplay,
but…
you also see that the only real element of danger is looking completely ridiculous because your character runs like he just dumped in his pants (3:09 in the 1st vid), but if you don’t want to run, that’s ok… you can hop around like Peter Cotton Tail (ala WoW) and look straight up ghey instead, or fly and look like some sort of deformed fish with legs and wings (3:38 in the 1st vid).

I’m getting off topic from the real issue though… yes pointing out the game's flawed animation and visual absurdities is fun, but the real point is…
As seen in the 2nd video, even the game's more (supposedly) challenging mobs have basically no AI other than roaring and spamming the same attack at you.
I would even guess that if the person in the video wasn’t mashing their action bar, the mobs would still just probably die from normal attacks.
This vid alone is proof that Aion's level of challenge and strategy are no where near that of FFXI’s.

FFXI example (Party Trio)-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQgm2zvfu1w
The tank is constantly in danger, almost dies 4x, would have died if it weren’t for the mage’s interaction, resulting in the death of the entire trio… quite a far cry from the…
click a monster – mash your action bar (if your feeling energetic) - watch a monster die gameplay from Aion.

I will say that Aion FINALLY is the first MMO to offer detailed, original, and surprisingly interesting mobs since FFXI.
The character design also has a cool look to it, with an impressive amount realistic detail, but imo it still comes in 2nd place to a 7 year old MMO, which has already been thoroughly debated in the thread below -
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?game=268&mid=1253850375243018082&page=2

Admittedly the already successful 400,000 user base of Aion is an impressive feat in today’s volatile MMO market…
but if FFXIV doesn’t quadruple that number at launch, I’ll eat my own copy and post it on youtube.

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 5:03pm by Pious
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#53 Sep 30 2009 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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That almost makes me wish that youtube sold tickets so that I could get one.
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#54 Sep 30 2009 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Man, people will fight over every game. Even new ones that haven't even been out of a week.
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#55 Sep 30 2009 at 9:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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*laughs* I must be playing a different Aion, then. I've had **** randomly eat my face and various mobs have different attack patterns that can end your day if you don't know how to counter them or feel like throwing a lot of money into meds. And contrary to what people might believe, partying is an option for various activities and does happen. The standard DD, Tank, Support roles exist and are filled appropriately depending on the task at hand. The above videos highlight the Templar, the tank class, taking a bit of time to kill a normal mob while unsurprisingly not taking much damage because that's what they're supposed to do. How terrible that combat is far more interactive than waiting for 100% TP to use your WS macro. XIV not having auto-attack must've caused some people to have a stroke.

It's not really hard to find someone on the internet that might agree with an opinion, and some even try to make a living on spinning consistently critical ones and make fancy videos like that Zero Punctuation crap. Shock jocks of the web? Who knows. Probably the only "valid" opinion brought up might be dislike of graphics. They're not as abysmal as WoW's, but they're not exactly as grounded in reality as FFXI's, either. I haven't really had a complaint with the environments I've been to so far, but I do think the character creator allows too much extremes in terms of height, or more specially, the lack thereof. Regardless, models are far more polished than XI, but I'd attribute that simply to the fact the game's newer. XIV's already fixed to be better in that department, but I'd be a bit worried about how they handle the magic/tech hybrids.
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#56 Oct 01 2009 at 5:05 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I’m so bored with the ridiculous argument that FFXI doesn’t have strategic and challenging gameplay especially when it’s coming from someone who’s arguing that Aion (a WOW clone) has more to offer in that department.

I'm so bored with ridiculous argument that Aion doesn't have strategic and challenging gameplay especially when it's coming from someone who's watching youtube and thinks that he knows the game.

Do understand that I don't say that FFXI as a whole game doesn't have strategic and challenging gameplay. What I said is simply for EXP PT. One of the best fights in any game for me was killing Alexander with literally seconds left on the clock that my party didn't know whether we won or got kicked out of the BC until we got the victory cutscene.

And just because I don't think FFXI EXP PT has no challenge doesn't make the game bad. I'm surprised at how people seem to be offended by that. If EXP PT is challenging for you, then you're doing it wrong.

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Even in the best FFXI parties, the chance of getting owned by the mob or mobs is always prevalent.

So how come I haven't experienced a single death in EXP PT from SAM50s to SAM73? Can't remember anyone dying either from my numerous merit PTs on MNK. How about the norm of 100+ chain merit PTs, do they do that when someone died? Let alone a PT wipe, someone died in EXP PT happens so very rare, and should never actually happen if people know what they're doing (e.g.: not linking on pull, mages with proper MP management, tank that doesn't suck, etc)

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You’ll see that that not only is Aion really the same rehashed – see a monster – click a monster – mash your action bar - watch a monster die gameplay,

I can also make a video of FFXI where we go see a monster - click a monster - wait TP to hit 100 - WS - repeat - watch a monster die gameplay. Your point?

Btw, just so you know, you link the same video on both. Might want to change the first video's URL.

Quote:
As seen in the 2nd video, even the game's more (supposedly) challenging mobs have basically no AI other than roaring and spamming the same attack at you.
I would even guess that if the person in the video wasn’t mashing their action bar, the mobs would still just probably die from normal attacks.
This vid alone is proof that Aion's level of challenge and strategy are no where near that of FFXI’s.

What it shows is your obvious lack of knowledge about Aion at all. First of all, that character is a Templar which is a tank. Of course she didn't take a lot of damage, because it's her role to be a tank. Second of all, you obviously didn't understand the skills involved and used in that video, but you should've still realized that she used numerous buffs and debuffs as well as chaining her skills. To make such an uneducated comment as "I would even guess that if the person in the video wasn’t mashing their action bar, the mobs would still just probably die from normal attacks." clearly showed your lack of understanding of what's going on.

Quote:
FFXI example (Party Trio)-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQgm2zvfu1w
The tank is constantly in danger, almost dies 4x, would have died if it weren’t for the mage’s interaction, resulting in the death of the entire trio… quite a far cry from the…
click a monster – mash your action bar (if your feeling energetic) - watch a monster die gameplay from Aion.

Ask yourself this question. Is 3-man party the norm in FFXI? The answer is no. Can't you find an example of the challenge using the norm of 6-man EXP PT?

Then let's move on to the content of the video itself. The "tank" is a BLU. When you said that he was constantly in danger, ask this question, what danger? Low HP? The mage has A LOT of MP. The BLU being low in HP doesn't show any danger at all. It simply shows that the mage waited til BLU was low in HP before curing. Then also notice that in this 3-man PT, the "DD" is a friggin DNC. When you have a BLU-DNC-(WHM?) PT, you'd be SUPER SAFE but slow kill. Every single party member can cure and you call that the tank was in constant danger? Not only that you had no clue about Aion, you seem to have no idea about FFXI either.

For 6-man EXP PT, have a look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL-tqTvO7f0
Show me the challenge in this 1-minute fight?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8-VsYyNwFM&feature=related
Show me the challenge in this 5-minute video that has 30-40second fights?

Think of anything yet? Probably not.

Quote:
Admittedly the already successful 400,000 user base of Aion is an impressive feat in today’s volatile MMO market…
but if FFXIV doesn’t quadruple that number at launch, I’ll eat my own copy and post it on youtube.

Do understand that Aion has around 3.5 million subscribers in Korea alone. Are you still willing to bet that FFXIV would quadruple that number?

Pious is exactly the kind of person that I consider as falling into the fanboyism trap because of the glorification of something that he likes and the constant dissing of other things that aren't what he likes. It's perfectly fine to like FFXI more than Aion. It's perfectly fine to not like Aion. But to exaggerate the so-called "challenge" in that FFXI trio video (that only consists of auto-attack and a few spells usage) while calling Aion solo not challenging (despite the numerous usage of skills) is pretty sad.

I'll put it this way. In FFXI, most abilities last quite long and has an even longer recast time. You use Berserk? That lasts you 3 minutes and after 2 minutes of no Berserk, you can use it again. So basically in 5 minute time span you use Berserk once. You can use Berserk, forgot about it for 4 minutes and suddenly remember about it on the fifth minue and be okay.

In Aion, most abilities last very short time with shorter cool down. You have to constantly be aware of your cool down timer and be ready to use the skill at the right time. During the short cool down of 1 skill (say 15 second cool down), you'd also have to know which other skills you should use. So while soloing a mob in Aion takes shorter time than soloing in FFXI, the level of challenge is higher because of the number of things that you have to do in that short period of time.

I'll give an example soloing in Aion with my Assassin in FFXI-equivalent terms. I'll use level 16 to show that things are quite busy even at low level. Invi yourself, sneak attack a mob to open the fight, use pattern skill 1 and pattern skill 2 to make level 2 pattern, use skill 3 and chain it with skill 4. Mob about to use special attack? use evasion skill, after evading, use counter skill to stun the mob, use skill 3 and chain it with skill 4 again, use pattern skill 1 and 2 again to make level 4 pattern, use skill 5 to detonate the pattern (the higher pattern level you create, the higher damage and chance to stun), mob got stunned, run around behind the mob and sneak attack again, mob dies. All of that happens in say 30 seconds.

How is that not more strategic/challenging than FFXI? If melee, say you solo as SAM/DNC, you basically use samba (whenever it's off), waltz (if you need to cure), meditate (every 3 minutes), hasso/seigan (as needed), third eye (if seigan), sekkanoki (if 100TP+), WS (every 100TP), and that's it. During the fight itself, you'll be seeing a lot of auto-attack and doing nothing else.

Again, I still play both Aion and FFXI, and I like both games. But even I can see clearly the differences between the two games and try to judge based on what's in those games rather than biased silly opinions. To me, FFXI is more relaxing. Aion is way more hectic. Both are appealing for different reasons. Just because the two games are different doesn't have to mean that one is great and the other is crap. Don't fall deeper to fanboyism trap, Pious.

Edited, Oct 1st 2009 9:55am by Vaagan
#57 Oct 01 2009 at 10:30 PM Rating: Default
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Just a few asides to this discussion:

1: Saw this nice post

Quote:

You can actually sit on the bench in Aion! Not by using /sit command either.


Yeah.. it's been in WoW for years. It just adds to my post about how I would have loved Aion if I had not already been playing WoW and FFXI for years. I get it, when I first played WoW about 1.5 years ago I thought it was really refreshing that I could sit on a bench, or a chair, and not even have to use /sit. Time has passed and now it is not only unrefreshing, but seems like a pointless mechanic ripped from a different game.

Quote:
+ Chatbox can be customized. It can be way more spammy than FFXI or way less spammy than FFXI, depending on your customization and preference.


OMG REALLY? CUSTOMIZABLE CHATS? /sarcasm


#2

Quote:
The standard DD, Tank, Support roles exist and are filled appropriately depending on the task at hand.


Well that is kinda the draw of FFXI for me, there is a SUPPORT role. (And a number of them at that.. rdm, blu, brd, pup, cor) I can't think of a single MMO that really embraced the idea of a support role like FFXI did. And please don't tell me that a WoW paladin or a Aion Spiritmaster are support classes. In both games 'support' roles were only given support abilities to augment their classes, whereas in FFXI there actually are classes dedicated purely to supporting a group. There simply are no 'support' roles in Aion, and with a whopping class roster of 4 (8 if you are really counting), there simply isn't any room for them.

Lots of other things I wanted to mention, but these 2 seemed like the ones I wanted to mention the most.

Oh and:
Quote:
Again, I still play both Aion and FFXI, and I like both games. But even I can see clearly the differences between the two games and try to judge based on what's in those games rather than biased silly opinions. To me, FFXI is more relaxing. Aion is way more hectic.


Try playing OTHER MMOS. Like I said a page ago, if FFXI and Aion were the only MMOs I played, then I would obviously think Aion was the greatest thing since sliced bread. The problem is that it just feels like a graphical expansion of previous MMOs with a gimmick (wings). I understand this is a FFXIV board and invariably there will be connections between FFXI and FFXIV, but I fail too see why Aion is even being mentioned in comparison to ONLY FFXI here.

If Aion is being used as an example of next-gen MMOs and where they can go, then I understand its use as a reference. If people are reading this board and thinking 'OMG someone doesn't understand how great Aion is'... please go post it on the forums of a game that has already been made.

At least the OP used Aion to relate to things he didn't want to appear in FFXIV (albeit poorly).

They already have plenty of suscribers even if the NA release goes the way of AoC. Lets talk about lessons learned or just leave it be.



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#58 Oct 01 2009 at 11:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I really don't get it, why do people love so much to diss games that they don't like as if it's crap? Why can't people understand that if you don't like a game, that doesn't mean that everyone has to hate it either.

Quote:
Yeah.. it's been in WoW for years. It just adds to my post about how I would have loved Aion if I had not already been playing WoW and FFXI for years. I get it, when I first played WoW about 1.5 years ago I thought it was really refreshing that I could sit on a bench, or a chair, and not even have to use /sit. Time has passed and now it is not only unrefreshing, but seems like a pointless mechanic ripped from a different game.

I've never implied that Aion was the pinnacle of new things in MMO. I used Aion as an example because this thread was comparing FFXI and Aion. The fact that other MMOs have the same ability to sit on the bench is irrelevant because I've never implied that Aion is the first and only MMO where it's doable.

However, if I'm not mistaken, Aion might be the first that allowed customizing armor look (e.g.: wearing a Hauby but making it look like Byrnie). If I'm not mistaken, it'll also be in WoW's next expansion and also in FFXIV which I'm happy about because I've always felt that most people at max level ended up wearing the same thing and they all look the same (seriously, how many people do you see wearing a hauby and turban in FFXI?). With so many players around, having different look armor would make the game more fun.

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OMG REALLY? CUSTOMIZABLE CHATS? /sarcasm

Again, compared to FFXI where the customization of the chatbox is very limited. Never implied that Aion is the first and only one that has that feature. You seem to somehow create this whole imagination in your head and unable to understand the context of the posts.

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There simply are no 'support' roles in Aion, and with a whopping class roster of 4 (8 if you are really counting), there simply isn't any room for them.

If I really must pick a support job in Aion, then it's going to be Chanter. However, using your standard of support, Chanter isn't exactly pure support job either. Where you are wrong though, it's not because of limited number of jobs, but because Aion is a game where it's about PvPvE. Creating a pure support job would just mean death and weakest class in PvP that there's no point in playing the game as that class. It works in FFXI because of the heavy emphasis of party play being more efficient if there is a support job in the party. The game is designed to have tank, DD, support, healer.

Quote:
Try playing OTHER MMOS. Like I said a page ago, if FFXI and Aion were the only MMOs I played, then I would obviously think Aion was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Try paying more attention and reading more carefully to understand the context of the posts. Where did I say that I think Aion is the greatest thing since sliced bread? I simply stated that there is more challenge in Aion solo play than FFXI EXP PT play. I also stated the reason why and gave examples to support that idea using the playstyle of both games. While those who disagreed had so far failed to contribute with any explanation as to why they think otherwise.

Note: I do play other MMORPG other than FFXI and Aion. I just don't play WoW because it doesn't appeal to me. I'm sure WoW has something great going on there, but I can't get passed the cartoon-look. I can understand if others love it, but I just can't. I've tried watching my friends play the game. I've tried playing around using their characters. I'm just not attracted to that game at all for whatever reason.

Quote:
If people are reading this board and thinking 'OMG someone doesn't understand how great Aion is'... please go post it on the forums of a game that has already been made.

My posts were created because many of these people who bashed Aion didn't even play and/or understand anything about the game. The OP played to level 26 and still didn't seem to understand the game properly at all, instead falling back to his fanboyism of FFXI to continue glorify FFXI while constantly dissing other games that aren't FFXI. Had people understood about Aion and felt that something was lacking, then I'd be more than happy to not correct them and consider them as valid/reasonable. If people complaint about FFXI because it's too easy, then I can understand that because most of the things in FFXI aren't super challenging. But if someone complaint about FFXI because it's too easy that you can level up from 1 to 75 in 2 hours, then I'd post to correct them and call BS to their face. Same thing is happening here in this thread where soem people made uninformed complaint about Aion and creating BS.

Just so that people understand that I'm not glorifying Aion, there are things that I dislike about Aion and things that I think could be done better.

For example, the non-Sanctum/Pandaemonium towns seem to be too small in size that they feel very crowded really quickly as people hang around in these towns for quite a while (roughly 10 levels) to constantly return from outside area to the quest NPCs. To relate to FFXIV, I do hope that the non starting cities would be quite significant in size so that they aren't going to be the lagfest like Jeuno/Whitegate back then.

Then another weakness of Aion is that the two races (Elyos and Asmodean) are too similar in terms of gameplay. The quests are quite the same from one another just with different settings and names. Though I suspect that it's made that way to make the two races to not have any (dis)advantage over one another when it comes to PvP.

And I'm sure I'll find more as I play more and more in Aion. Unfortunately, out of the claims made in this thread, most of them are BS because of the people having no idea what they are talking about.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2009 3:08am by Vaagan
#59 Oct 02 2009 at 2:04 AM Rating: Decent
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The problem is that it just feels like a graphical expansion of previous MMOs with a gimmick (wings).


Uh, can't you actually fly, and isn't flying a big part of the gameplay for the people with wings? That hardly sounds like a gimmick to me. It sounds like it adds a relatively large amount of depth to the gameplay, based on what I've seen and read of the game.

Quote:

Then another weakness of Aion is that the two races (Elyos and Asmodean) are too similar in terms of gameplay.


Yeah, you're probably right on them not wanting people to have to level two characters or feeling like they're missing out. Personally I prefer it that way. It makes it easier on the developers to offer more content, and easier on the players to see all the content that is offered.

Seems like a solid game to me, at least. If it were on a console I'd probably be really tempted to pick it up.
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#60 Oct 02 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Uh, can't you actually fly, and isn't flying a big part of the gameplay for the people with wings? That hardly sounds like a gimmick to me. It sounds like it adds a relatively large amount of depth to the gameplay, based on what I've seen and read of the game.

Yeah you can fly, and there's aerial combat and aerial gathering too to make flying not just as a gimmick. You can also glide if you jump from somewhere higher than the ground, it's especially useful when you're in an area where you aren't allowed to fly.

But then again, Shaazamemt probably had no idea about Aion either because his comments were misguided by the constant idea of comparing to WoW.

Oh and just to relate it back to FF XIV, I want it to have the characters running/walking quicker than FFXI. When I think about it, FFXI characters moved quite slow. Aketon-speed seems much better and reasonable enough to not be "too quick". I hope it's going to be like that in FF XIV.
#61Pious, Posted: Oct 02 2009 at 2:47 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Admittedly I do feel a bit silly for having to defend myself to someone who’s found their perfect little niche under Aion’s Acorns, but I’ll guarantee that my accomplishments in FFXI far surpass yours. After I beat Maat with Thief in a straight up fight instead of stealing from him (which everyone told me was near impossible), I became one of those players who set out to do what most could not.
#62 Oct 02 2009 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I’ve researched Aion…

Is your research = 1-2 Youtube videos?

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The rest of my critique was solely about Aion.
Your post however was not only riddled with attacks, but for the most part is directed solely at me.

You must realize that if one person said so many wrong things, then the problem is no longer just the wrong things, but also the person too. That is the case with your previous post where you made so many uninformed statements, both for Aion and FFXI. So by pointing out the issue about you, I was hoping that you'd be able to change and become better. For example, putting more research for next post before claiming about things unlike before.

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I’ll take you word for it just for argument sake, but guess what…
It’s still boring as ****.
Why? Well, because to someone who’s used to the higher standards of FFXI… it’s not even somewhat cinematic.

So now you change your argument from "too easy and no challenge" into "not cinematic enough", ok I'll play your game and let's see what we have.

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In FFXI, when you engage a mob… the camera angle zooms and pans in on the action, and battle music (by an accredit composer) begins to play.
Yet another blatant example of higher quality.
This is much more appealing then no camera effects, with no audio enhancements other than the annoying, saturday morning cartoon squeals of your character,
and the same droning roar of the mob on a constant loop.

Camera zooming in and out is up to preference, so if you like it that way, it's fine with me and I have no issue with that opinion. But again, this quote showed another lack of research/understanding about Aion. The video you picked probably had the player turning off the BGM while keeping the Combat SFX on because Aion definitely has battle music which actually varies from area to area (not to diss FFXI, but FFXI probably only has like 5-6 different battle music? I love the ones usually saved up for boss fights though).

And while there's no question that FFXI composer is great and the music is awesome, Aion's composer is by no means crap either. Ryo Kunihiko http://www.last.fm/music/Ryo+Kunihiko for a bit of information about him.

A few examples of Aion's music:
Dredgion battle theme http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YaDMJShRgg&feature=related
Login screen music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JO8HxOIP5Y&feature=related
OST http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeAxiIzaE-o&feature=fvw
something mellow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h01TfslccKw&feature=related

Again, if you like FFXI music more than Aion, that's totally fine with me, but Aion's music is by no means as bad as you implied it to be.

Quote:
I chose that video because it shows how active the Tank is.
In this case a Blue Mage… he uses a spell to attack the mob…
a couple seconds later he uses a spell to buff himself… then another to attack… then one to heal himself... etc.
Also note that if he doesn’t accurately time his attacks, when he gets hit by the mob it interrupts his casting.
It’s absolutely strategic gameplay…
I’m not saying its strategy to the extent of beating Bobby Fisher in chess,
but it’s certainly more strategic than running up to AI challenged mobs and spamming the action bar while basically taking no damage at all.
The fact that the Blue's health drops into the Red 4X shows that there's a serious element of danger involved, not to mention how the requirement for him to be healed just proves my case even more because the Templar didn't need anything.

You are comparing two very different situations and trying to paint them as the same. It's not going to work, Pious.

Your FFXI trio video: low level party in a non-efficient setup
Your Aion Templar video: high level tank job soloing a mob

You said that it's strategic that BLU cast attacking spell, then buffing, then attack again, then healing. Yet, when the Templar did attack, buff, debuff, cure, you said it wasn't strategic. You fall to the same trap as the other guy. You feel that FFXI is more strategic because it's more obvious what happened. Everything happened slower, you can have no idea about FFXI and see that the BLU is doing this and that and this and that. While for the untrained eye of non-Aion player like yourself, it's not easy to understand what happened during that Templar fight especially because the fight only lasted for 1 minute (half of that trio fight) while consisting probably double or triple of the number of skills that the BLU used.

To base the danger on damage taken is very misguided. Replace that Templar with a DPS job and you'd probably see a lot more curing going on. Replace that DNC with a DD job and you'd probably see the ladybug died much quicker. Replace that BLU with a PLD, you might not see much curing needed either. You're comparing two very different situations with a basis that doesn't make sense.

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Which means absolutely nothing in reference to the case in point, a Paladin or Ninja tank in a full party is just as active as the Blue is in that one.

Are you serious? You mean a NIN in full party using Utsu: Ichi, Utsu: Ni, Provoke, and WS = active? PLD using Provoke, Sentinel, Flash, Cure, WS = active? While Templar using triple the number is not? You're disillusioned by the speed of the battle into thinking that longer = more difficult = more strategic.

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and no, you couldn’t just “make a video of FFXI where we go see a monster - click a monster - wait TP to hit 100 - WS - repeat - watch a monster die gameplay“
because that battle would result in little or no exp, and the point was to show two opposing vids where a decent amount of exp was obtained.

And unfortunately, you couldn't do that on Aion either. If that Templar didn't buff, debuff, cure, attack, that Templar would've been the one died. You see where I'm going with this?

Quote:
Admittedly I do feel a bit silly for having to defend myself to someone who’s found their perfect little niche under Aion’s Acorns, but I’ll guarantee that my accomplishments in FFXI far surpass yours. After I beat Maat with Thief in a straight up fight instead of stealing from him (which everyone told me was near impossible), I became one of those players who set out to do what most could not.

So how come you didn't understand the safety of that trio party? If everyone in the party can cure, the mob has no way to one-shot anyone, the mob doesn't have super high HP to make the party run out of MP to cure, how come you thought that there was high element of danger? The answer is again, lack of research and selective example use to suit argument rather than the argument is made based on the facts like it should be.

Is that also why you cannot answer to show the challenge in those two 6-man party videos that I showed you?
#63 Oct 02 2009 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally, it being a WOW clone doesn't strike me as an insult. If you've already played WOW, I can understand not wanting to play a similar game (similar to how I don't want to play another game like FFXI). But as someone who never played WOW, and for whom the graphics were one of the major deterrents to that, calling Aion a WOW (most successful MMO ever) clone with better graphics (and you can FLY) could easily be a compliment.
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#64 Oct 05 2009 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
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#65 Oct 05 2009 at 8:28 AM Rating: Default
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Time will tell if Aion is a good game worthy of the MMO market. Right now it has a bunch of hype and fanboys defending it. That's no smoking gun and I personally don't care to play it. It's too similar to WoW, that's my problem. I'm not exactly talking about the interface either. The style of WoW attracts a certain class of player that isn't quite frankly worth my time to know. I don't care for my RPG's on "easy mode" or with more fluff than substance... IE WoW. It's impossible to defend such a position unless you play it yourself disregarding all of your research. Apparently it doesn't count anymore, only people who play the game are entitled to opinions, right Vaagan.

I'm sure Aion will be a nice distraction until FFXIV comes out. After that, Aion will probably be long forgotten by the majority of players that think it's cool now. So I don't see why it's such a huge deal. Aion is just another WoW clone that will fade off into the abyss as soon as something better comes along. For most of us, that's FFXIV.
#66 Oct 05 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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One can form a decent opinion based on research, but what's been presented so far is certainly pretty biased and uninformed. I'm still trying to keep objective and weed my hate for the bad aspects of XI out, and so far I'll stand behind the believe that Aion's done a number of things right so far, but still has a way to go. The fairness in comparing one game a little over a year old to that encroaching a decade just isn't there. The typical mechanics of an MMO haven't evolved in that timespan, either.

Presently, my Gladiator is 34. I've done a bunch of questing. I've done a bit of grinding. I've done a nice chunk of crafting/gathering. I've been ganked plenty. I've done a bit of ganking myself.

Out of all of this, I've come to the conclusion that it feels like that particular class is lacking something. It's practically impossible to kill a healer in 1v1. A Sorcerer can obliterate you before you can even get close and have a stoneskin that can basically negate a round of my attack abilities. Templar just get tickled. Spiritmasters are basically 2v1 with the master having things like a terror ability to redirect you while the pet just follows without issue. I had like a 5 minute fight with a ranger I eventually lost just because even though he wasn't hitting me super hard, I just couldn't get close with their snares, which also impaired my ability to flee.

So, the run up and whack things style of play may be fine for PvE, but things just aren't quite right in the PvP field. Maybe my gear's lacking. Maybe I'm just not "getting" something about 1v1 tactics. Regardless, it's supposed to be an integral part of the game and will only get more cut-throat as people hit 50 and attempts to claim territory really get rolling. Right now, I'd just say the mid-levels are rather congested and the AH is in a chaotic state because everyone's desperate for cash, but nobody's really rich enough to throw it at the overpriced items you'd see on sale. ****, last night I blew I 440k on my level 34 skills, which left me with a whopping 150k. That's the kind of perpetual give and take I've been struggling through while leveling, and 37 will probably be worse.
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#67 Oct 05 2009 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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limonconcon wrote:

And for the people that hate the Slow paste of FFXI and the HNMs taking so **** long to pop but with amazing fights and the partying system, Go play another MMORPG for a while and watch how the FFXI bug pinches you again.


leveling wise FFXI is much faster than wow by a long shot.
on average in wow at level 30 you spend about 2-3 hours per level with an optimal solo build.

yes its pasted much slower.. >.>
#68 Oct 05 2009 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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I know several people playing Aion now (a couple just waiting for XIV) and while it appears to be a WoW clone at first glance, there are quite a number of things that sets it apart from WoW.

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Time has passed and now it is not only unrefreshing, but seems like a pointless mechanic ripped from a different game.

One of my old (and probably one of the wiser) bosses once told me that there is no need to re-invent the wheel. Most people that attempt to do this end up learning the lessons of failure that the inventor of the wheel already knows. If something works, you can take the idea(s) and attempt to improve upon them.

Aion is already trying this with their UI by changing the square into the next one in the chain automatically. Maybe you have noticed that there are less hot bars being used than the ones available in WoW. This is one of the things you may not know unless you actually played the game or someone explained it to you. In the quote above (which is in regards to the /sit command), it's something small and will probably go unnoticed by those who have been exposed to it but don't really care about it anymore. Those who have never been exposed to it before may find it refreshing (as was the case here). Those who have been exposed to it before and noticed it missing from the game may go as far as to complain about the "unpolished" feel of it since there are benches you can't sit on.

From a top level view, things like that can and may have already become a standard for new MMOs, so much so that an MMO without it may seem unpolished. You would inclined to feel the same if basic emotes like /smile and /clap were missing and using WASD movement controls were moved strictly to the Num Pad or the arrow keys. Same goes for the UI.

It works (well) and it has been successful, so why exclude it or try to replace it with something that may not be as successful. Chances are you can't come up with anything that would surpass it, because if you could, you would. Aion gives you several options to use the keyboard instead of rapid clicking with a mouse, but you would be hard pressed to find a wildly successful computer game that didn't involve constant mouse clicking.

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#69 Oct 05 2009 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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It's too similar to WoW, that's my problem. I'm not exactly talking about the interface either.

So what are you exactly talking about? Able to elaborate?

Quote:
Apparently it doesn't count anymore, only people who play the game are entitled to opinions, right Vaagan.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but obviously there are stupid ones out there who just simply didn't know what they were talking about. Partly because they were lazy with their research, mostly because they didn't play and/or understand the game properly. Thus, making unreasonable conclusion that resulted in uninformed comments.

Quote:
After that, Aion will probably be long forgotten by the majority of players that think it's cool now. So I don't see why it's such a huge deal. Aion is just another WoW clone that will fade off into the abyss as soon as something better comes along. For most of us, that's FFXIV.

I find it funny that you started your post with "time will tell" but then made this conclusion at the end without even actually giving any substantial reasoning.
#70 Oct 05 2009 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Vaagan wrote:

So what are you exactly talking about? Able to elaborate?


So you can pick apart any argument I might have with the game, no thanks. Obviously you're more aware of the game mechanics due to first hand experience. However, let's just say I wasn't impressed by all the hype.

Quote:

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but obviously there are stupid ones out there who just simply didn't know what they were talking about. Partly because they were lazy with their research, mostly because they didn't play and/or understand the game properly. Thus, making unreasonable conclusion that resulted in uninformed comments.


I don't believe there is a way to give a valid opinion unless you have experience to offer one. So it doesn't matter what I have to say, does it.

Quote:

I find it funny that you started your post with "time will tell" but then made this conclusion at the end without even actually giving any substantial reasoning.


The "time will tell" part applies to how many people will embrace Aion. That being said, Aion isn't exactly a big name. I highly doubt Aion has enough of an appeal to steal away the user base from other successful MMO's over the long term. There's only so many ways to split the MMO pie. My substantial reasoning is this. Most people are bored of FFXI and WoW and are eager for a new experience and some shiny graphics. Age of Conan fit that void for awhile, but now it's Aion's turn. Once the shiny feeling wears off, I don't believe most people will stick by Aion. Too much flash, not enough substance.
#71 Oct 05 2009 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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However, let's just say I wasn't impressed by all the hype.

Fair enough, but sometimes it's not a good idea to judge a book by its cover.

Unrelated note: I still blame my local library for providing a tempting covered book for their Quick Pick section when the book was total rubbish when I read it ><!! I want my hours back --;;

Quote:
The "time will tell" part applies to how many people will embrace Aion. That being said, Aion isn't exactly a big name. I highly doubt Aion has enough of an appeal to steal away the user base from other successful MMO's over the long term. There's only so many ways to split the MMO pie. My substantial reasoning is this. Most people are bored of FFXI and WoW and are eager for a new experience and some shiny graphics. Age of Conan fit that void for awhile, but now it's Aion's turn. Once the shiny feeling wears off, I don't believe most people will stick by Aion. Too much flash, not enough substance.

This is exactly what I meant with uninformed comment when people said the wrong thing either because they don't know or don't bother researching.

You highly doubt Aion has enough of an appeal to steal away the user base from other successful MMORPGs. Maybe you were right that Aion couldn't steal many players from other MMORPGs, but you were wrong when you implied the need to steal players from other MMORPGs to survive over the long term. Your mistake is that you failed to understand and consider the Eastern market base. Aion in South Korea already has 3.5 million subscribers, and another million said to be in China. That's 4.5 million players. Plus roughly say 500,000 from the NA/EU market, they hit the 5 million mark. That's around seven times more than what FFXI has. Aion doesn't need to steal pie share from others to survive, they already have enough pie share for themselves. Might not be as high as WoW, but even NCSoft themselves already said that they aren't aiming to beat WoW and they would be happy to be second below WoW in terms of numbers because that alone is already a big success.

Somehow, you seem to consider that the pie is made of only NA/EU players where Aion has just been released a few weeks ago and then you fall to the "new shiny factor" trap. You totally missed the fact that Aion has been out for almost a year in South Korea and it's no longer new and shiny game anymore, but able to maintain/increase its number of subscribers. Aion doesn't need to be super successful in NA/EU market to survive because they have enough already from the Eastern market.
#72 Oct 05 2009 at 4:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Vaagan wrote:

This is exactly what I meant with uninformed comment when people said the wrong thing either because they don't know or don't bother researching.

You highly doubt Aion has enough of an appeal to steal away the user base from other successful MMORPGs. Maybe you were right that Aion couldn't steal many players from other MMORPGs, but you were wrong when you implied the need to steal players from other MMORPGs to survive over the long term. Your mistake is that you failed to understand and consider the Eastern market base. Aion in South Korea already has 3.5 million subscribers, and another million said to be in China. That's 4.5 million players. Plus roughly say 500,000 from the NA/EU market, they hit the 5 million mark. That's around seven times more than what FFXI has. Aion doesn't need to steal pie share from others to survive, they already have enough pie share for themselves. Might not be as high as WoW, but even NCSoft themselves already said that they aren't aiming to beat WoW and they would be happy to be second below WoW in terms of numbers because that alone is already a big success.

Somehow, you seem to consider that the pie is made of only NA/EU players where Aion has just been released a few weeks ago and then you fall to the "new shiny factor" trap. You totally missed the fact that Aion has been out for almost a year in South Korea and it's no longer new and shiny game anymore, but able to maintain/increase its number of subscribers. Aion doesn't need to be super successful in NA/EU market to survive because they have enough already from the Eastern market.


I see what you meant now. However, my point still applies depending on how you view things. You mention how Korea and China have a huge stake in Aion and that's fine. I wasn't implying that Aion needed to be successful in the NA/EU regions to survive per se. Instead I was implying that Aion's survival and overall acceptance in those NA/EU regions is all that matters to be successful. If Aion isn't popular in the NA region any longer, NA people will leave to find another game, that's my point. People are sheep and love to follow the clique. Everyone and their mother is talking about Aion right now around my town. It's truly about the "shiny" element right now for sure to them. I already played a few heavy Asian flavored MMO games like Silk road. So no, I'm not claiming Aion will go bankrupt, just that most people that matter to me will leave for greener pastures. I could care less about Korea or China with their millions of subscribers and RMT to go along with them. Aion already has a huge RMT problem from what all my RL friends have told me.
#73 Oct 05 2009 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Instead I was implying that Aion's survival and overall acceptance in those NA/EU regions is all that matters to be successful.


o.o

Surely you didn't mean that the way it sounded?

Edited, Oct 5th 2009 8:48pm by Zemzelette
#74 Oct 05 2009 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette wrote:


o.o

Surely you didn't mean that the way it sounded?

Edited, Oct 5th 2009 8:48pm by Zemzelette


Can you be a little more clear on this? I'll assume in the meantime you're under the impression that I'm referring to Aion's financial future. This has nothing to do with what I posted. If Aion is to successful in the NA region, there must be enough people willing to play it beyond the "new shiny game" hype. I could care less what the Koreans or Chinese play or the overall success of the game. The community is the success factor, not the revenue. I don't believe that Aion will be a serious contender in the NA/EU regions especially after FFXIV comes out. Call it whatever you want, just hope you understand my point.
#75 Oct 05 2009 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Zemzelette wrote:


o.o

Surely you didn't mean that the way it sounded?

Edited, Oct 5th 2009 8:48pm by Zemzelette


Can you be a little more clear on this? I'll assume in the meantime you're under the impression that I'm referring to Aion's financial future. This has nothing to do with what I posted. If Aion is to successful in the NA region, there must be enough people willing to play it beyond the "new shiny game" hype. I could care less what the Koreans or Chinese play or the overall success of the game. The community is the success factor, not the revenue. I don't believe that Aion will be a serious contender in the NA/EU regions especially after FFXIV comes out. Call it whatever you want, just hope you understand my point.


Kinda struck me as, "Aion sucks if it doesn't do well in the Western market."

Pretty much anything can fail for reasons beyond simply sucking. Television is pretty notorious for this in yanking shows like Firefly, Terminator: SCC, and so on while "garbage shows" persist, usually because they're dirt cheap to produce. ****, Leno moving to 10pm is a shining example of networks trying to cut corners (Though don't confuse this with me hating Leno. I like him over Letterman and I guess he's more consistently amusing over Conan, but I figure Conan's had more memorable/shock comedy over his years in late night).
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#76 Oct 05 2009 at 7:16 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:


Kinda struck me as, "Aion sucks if it doesn't do well in the Western market."



More or less, that's how I feel. If a year passes and only 10% of the NA/EU region players are still around, Aion sucks. I don't know why so some people continue to push the Asian census numbers like they matter. If your RL and online friends quit Aion, chances are you'll leave too. That's all I'm trying to say here. Some medias do better in other demographics and regions. I personally feel there are far too many MMO's either in the market now or on the way. WoW controls such a huge slice of the pie, it's not realistic for every single MMO to succeed in all markets. Star wars, FFXIV, Aion, and WoW are just a few of the games that will be competing for market share in our NA/EU region. Another cool game DC Universe is coming out as well. Looks to be pit against CoH and Marvel's announced MMO. I don't even know the status of Lords of the Ring.

Anybody seriously disagree with what I'm saying here?
#77 Oct 05 2009 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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Well, yes.

A game could never even see an English translation and still be a whopping success.
I understand why you - personally - might not want to play it. But the word choice is a little more all encompassing than that. You went back and softened the statement a little, but you said something else that left the same impression.

North America isn't the metric for success in MMOs.
Even if you wanted to measure things in terms of 'community' instead of 'subscriptions' - we're not even an appreciable majority of the MMO community.

There's this strange notion that "Asia doesn't count".
And it's not just you, lots of people feel that way. It's a combination of the knowledge MMO companies are skewing their numbers using the asia-based gamecards in ways that fabricate subscriptions and a visceral knee-jerk reaction to fact gilsellers are largely asia-based.

It's understandable, but it doesn't invalidate the large number of legitimate asian players who are members of a thriving MMO community that arguably surpasses our own in terms of mainstream acceptance. This notion has it backwards; it's not that gilsellers sprung up in asia due to lax labor laws in reaction to the moderate MMO successes in the West and - oh yeah there's a few legitimate players in Asia too. It's that gilsellers sprung up in Asia in reaction to incredible MMO Successes in the East.

I can sympathize where your coming from, I think that dodgy business tactic is a ridiculous ******* contest and nobody's really a fan of RMT. But it comes off as just a bit...impolite.




Edited, Oct 6th 2009 1:43am by Zemzelette
#78 Oct 06 2009 at 2:42 AM Rating: Good
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Instead I was implying that Aion's survival and overall acceptance in those NA/EU regions is all that matters to be successful.

On what basis? If the MMORPG pie is made of the whole world, the Eastern pie is clearly bigger than Western pie. To base a success or failure based on the smaller pie seems to be a very weird logic to me.

Quote:
If Aion isn't popular in the NA region any longer, NA people will leave to find another game, that's my point.

Of course, and I agree. But what's the point of saying that? Why are you only focusing on NA/EU Aion while ignoring the K/C-Aion as if they didn't exist when the NA/EU Aion is the minority instead of the majority?

Quote:
Aion already has a huge RMT problem from what all my RL friends have told me.

If by huge RMT problem you mean the massive shout/whisper, then yeah. But what it actually does is simply inconvenience. There are easy ways to completely avoid RMT in the game.
1. Set your status as invisible. That way they can't search you and can't send whisper to you unless their character can see your character. But since they're just fake low level account, they'll just be sitting in the starting area and won't see you.
2. Right Click their username on the channels and block them. There aren't that many RMT accounts at all. It's just that those same accounts are repeatedly shouting the same things. Of course you can also report their names to GM. (note: some of the GMs in some of the servers had done some public banning of these RMT accounts)
3. Don't even bother with the general channel at all. Yes RMT shouts and stuff, but again, the chatbox is customizable, you can simply just block out things that you don't need. What you usually need is your Legion (LS), Group (PT), Alliance, and /say. Basically untouched by RMT.

RMT doesn't actually affect the gameplay economy (yet?) in Aion because they can't monopolize things, they can't gather non-stop because of the gathering level system, and they can't really level up easily either because most areas can include PvP and they'd just get pwned by legit players easily. So while RMT whispers and shouts a lot in Aion (and I really mean A LOT with capital letters), there are easy ways to avoid that and totally have no issue with them. I wouldn't say it's a HUGE RMT problem when it's only inconveniencing the players. It would be much BIGGER RMT problem if RMT actually controlled/affected the game economy, luckily it hasn't happened yet in Aion.

Quote:
I don't know why so some people continue to push the Asian census numbers like they matter.

Why doesn't they matter? What makes NA/EU number matter but not Asian number?

Quote:
If your RL and online friends quit Aion, chances are you'll leave too. That's all I'm trying to say here.

**** that surely didn't sound like what all you were trying to say here at all. XD

Quote:
The community is the success factor, not the revenue. I don't believe that Aion will be a serious contender in the NA/EU regions especially after FFXIV comes out.

Again, on what basis? You said community is the success factor and not the revenue, why? What proof do you have that FFXIV has better community than Aion? Do you even know what Aion community is like at all? Do you know what FFXIV community is like? Are you simply just hoping for everything to happen the way you think it will because that's the way you want it to be?

My biggest issue with your later posts is simply the impression that you think that NA is the center of the universe where success is determined by NA only, and not by the bigger picture of the whole world. It doesn't seem to make sense at all because you haven't come up with any solid reasoning at all to support your weird idea.
#79 Oct 06 2009 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Vaagan wrote:

Again, on what basis? You said community is the success factor and not the revenue, why? What proof do you have that FFXIV has better community than Aion? Do you even know what Aion community is like at all? Do you know what FFXIV community is like? Are you simply just hoping for everything to happen the way you think it will because that's the way you want it to be?

My biggest issue with your later posts is simply the impression that you think that NA is the center of the universe where success is determined by NA only, and not by the bigger picture of the whole world. It doesn't seem to make sense at all because you haven't come up with any solid reasoning at all to support your weird idea.


I don't have proof about FFXIV's community quite yet. Mostly because the only people I know for sure play FFXI too. However, like I said in a previous post, Final Fantasy is a huge brand name. If FFXIV kept the name Rapture, I doubt it would ever generate the same interest. Not only that, but there's a lot of people I know that have retired from FFXI and are waiting for FFXIV. All of my friends who played Aion are only doing do to pass the time to FFXIV. It's too early to prove anything, but there is such as a thing as a safe bet. Aion is the game in jeopardy in the highly competitive NA region. Flashy graphics alone doesn't make a good game. That's why I have so much faith in FFXIV. No RPG company on any platform has ever been able to trump Final Fantasy games. The closest competitor Enix got bought out and now works for Square. :P

You could argue the MMO genre is a different RPG experience. All I know is once FFXIV goes online, Aion will die a quick death in the NA/EU regions. You heard it here first. Superior graphics and music, better storyline to follow, job systems, challenge, and so many more of those exclusive FF traits. If all you care about is PvP, well I guess Aion is better for that. :P

Quote:
Of course, and I agree. But what's the point of saying that? Why are you only focusing on NA/EU Aion while ignoring the K/C-Aion as if they didn't exist when the NA/EU Aion is the minority instead of the majority?


I can't believe I seriously have to answer this. I'm ignoring the C/K regions because they don't matter to me. If a TV show is popular in K/C, but bombs here in the NA, it's canceled here. However, it might be on the air years later in another region. That's what happened to my childhood favorite show of Transformers. Season 4 is all JP now. So while a property may strive in other regions, it was clearly dead to me. So why choose to include the majority if it doesn't affect me personally? If my friends and English speaking players abandon FFXI, I'm gone too. Do I care the JP are still playing and FFXI lives on? NO

If you're arguing Aion's profit margin, that's fine. Anything else and your point makes no sense.
#80 Oct 06 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Not only that, but there's a lot of people I know that have retired from FFXI and are waiting for FFXIV. All of my friends who played Aion are only doing do to pass the time to FFXIV.

So you ignored the Asian market and changed to only NA market and now changed to "your friends and people you know". How many people are we talking about here?

Quote:
Flashy graphics alone doesn't make a good game.

And unfortunately, by deciding not to play the game, you're only judging from the flashiness. Not a really smart decision at all.

Quote:
No RPG company on any platform has ever been able to trump Final Fantasy games. The closest competitor Enix got bought out and now works for Square. :P

Seriously? On any platform? Blizzard easily beat Square on PC. Monster Hunter completely trashed any Square products on PSP. The Last Remnant is Square's best selling RPG on X360 and you know it's not number 1. Square still has yet to release anything noteworthy on PS3. On Wii, Pokemon and Monster Hunter still beat any Square product there. Pokemon easily controlled everything on DS too.

And despite the overall popularity of Final Fantasy series on console games, FFXI proved it that it didn't translate well to MMORPG market. What makes you think that FFXIV will be different and able to steal people away from WoW's pie share?

Quote:
So why choose to include the majority if it doesn't affect me personally?

Because what determines success is not only what affects you personally. Just because you friends don't play a certain game anymore doesn't mean that the game sucks. Your point that if Aion failed in NA/EU/yourfriends then it sucks is clearly misguided. You said that community determines the success, yet you completely ignore the other communities that strongly existed just because you aren't in that community. I don't mean to be rude, but it really feels like you're so self-centered that you're basing a game's success based on you personally while completely ignoring everyone else that you don't know.

Edited, Oct 6th 2009 4:59pm by Vaagan
#81 Oct 06 2009 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Vaagan wrote:

And unfortunately, by deciding not to play the game, you're only judging from the flashiness. Not a really smart decision at all.


I've watched the game played at a friends house. I was not impressed at all. Crappy game, not worth playing. I'm not going to argue with you on this anymore, drop it.

Quote:

Seriously? On any platform? Blizzard easily beat Square on PC. Monster Hunter completely trashed any Square products on PSP. The Last Remnant is Square's best selling RPG on X360 and you know it's not number 1. Square still has yet to release anything noteworthy on PS3. On Wii, Pokemon and Monster Hunter still beat any Square product there. Pokemon easily controlled everything on DS too.


I'm not a PC gamer so it appears I should of said consoles and home market. That being said, my point was to say the Final Fantasy label is superior to other RPG software on other systems past and present. I'm going off of quality, not only sales. I'll address the system you mentioned though.

Nintendo DS: Final Fantasy Tactics Grimore, FFIII, FFIV(my personal fave), and Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings are a few games you just so happen to forget. Chrono Trigger and Childen of Mana aren't true Final Fantasy titles, but it's there as well.

Wii: Well FF1 was just released on Virtual console. Plus the Wiiware saga of FFIV the after years. Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles games are well crafted with scores to match.

PS3: Not much so far...Valkyrie Profile: Lenneth and Star Ocean. FFXIII and FFXIV are the 2 bombs that will change that in short order.

I could go on, but why bother, I proved you wrong already.

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And despite the overall popularity of Final Fantasy series on console games, FFXI proved it that it didn't translate well to MMORPG market. What makes you think that FFXIV will be different and able to steal people away from WoW's pie share?


Well FFXI did very well for a first try in online games. The PS2 limitations really hurt the game. Limited UI control, macro swaps, storage, epic battles, etc. FFXIV won't have any of these limitations holding it back. The PS3 is very powerful, blows away most PC's in terms of raw power in 2009. The PS2's limited 4MB of RAM was clearly outclassed right from the start.

As for the reasons why I think FFXIV will steal away people from WoW, it's pretty simple. WoW was a very good MMO to learn how online games play. But the difference is WoW is like other MMO's only on training wheels. WoW is an older game now and it's appeal is fading. The type of player that likes WoW is the the kind of player that likes "new shiny" games. People come back to FFXI all the time because of WoW's "too easy" and "dumbed down" approach. FFXI however was never the best game for the causal player like WoW and other MMO's. That weakness is about to disappear. FFXIV offers both causal and hardcore content, something FFXI lacked until very recently.

We all know that FFXI was a terribly ported PS2 game that held it back. SE isn't going to make that mistake again so it's quite feasible that FFXIV will catch on with people on all platforms including WoW's user base. When I ask friends about their feelings about Aion, they compare it to another clone of WoW. FFXIV will have the superb graphics, sound, and all the trimmings plus it's own flavor. It won't feel like a clone, a sequel if anything.

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Because what determines success is not only what affects you personally. Just because you friends don't play a certain game anymore doesn't mean that the game sucks. Your point that if Aion failed in NA/EU/yourfriends then it sucks is clearly misguided. You said that community determines the success, yet you completely ignore the other communities that strongly existed just because you aren't in that community. I don't mean to be rude, but it really feels like you're so self-centered that you're basing a game's success based on you personally while completely ignoring everyone else that you don't know.

Edited, Oct 6th 2009 4:59pm by Vaagan


I'm not playing the game so it doesn't affect me regardless. I'll let history prove me right.
#82 Oct 06 2009 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette wrote:

North America isn't the metric for success in MMOs.
Even if you wanted to measure things in terms of 'community' instead of 'subscriptions' - we're not even an appreciable majority of the MMO community.

There's this strange notion that "Asia doesn't count".
And it's not just you, lots of people feel that way. It's a combination of the knowledge MMO companies are skewing their numbers using the asia-based gamecards in ways that fabricate subscriptions and a visceral knee-jerk reaction to fact gilsellers are largely asia-based.

It's understandable, but it doesn't invalidate the large number of legitimate asian players who are members of a thriving MMO community that arguably surpasses our own in terms of mainstream acceptance. This notion has it backwards; it's not that gilsellers sprung up in asia due to lax labor laws in reaction to the moderate MMO successes in the West and - oh yeah there's a few legitimate players in Asia too. It's that gilsellers sprung up in Asia in reaction to incredible MMO Successes in the East.

I can sympathize where your coming from, I think that dodgy business tactic is a ridiculous ******* contest and nobody's really a fan of RMT. But it comes off as just a bit...impolite.


Well I don't think RMT would exist at all if it wasn't for the success of the NA/EU markets. China is a 3rd world country that works for slave wages. Why else you think 99% of the stuff you buy at Wal-mart is made in China? I think our FFXI numbers are skewed too thanks to RMT.

I'm not saying Asia doesn't count. I'm saying Asia doesn't count to me personally. It's like following a sport. Football(soccer) is followed by most countries. But American football is notoriously unknown by most countries. Should I or anyone else care what is popular in Asia? Of course not, we have our own hobbies that rarely mix. For example, Aion is an example of that exception. So if Aion fades out in our region, it's dead to us. It doesn't matter if it lasts in Korea for the next 10 years. Out of sight, out of mind.

I apologize if I can't word things well enough to explain myself. I'm just growing tired of repeating myself. Even Vaagan admitted he wouldn't play a game that lost all his friends. That's all I'm saying here. I'm not arguing the overall success of the game, just it's hold on our region.
#83 Oct 06 2009 at 10:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I've watched the game played at a friends house. I was not impressed at all. Crappy game, not worth playing. I'm not going to argue with you on this anymore, drop it.

I'm not asking you to argue with me on this. I've even made it clear from the very beginning that it's okay if people don't like Aion, or if people like FFXI more than Aion, or however they feel. That's opinion based on preference and that's fine with me because different people have different preference. What I do mind is that you consider a game as crappy without even understanding what the game is really like.

It's like this. Some people prefer Ferrari over Mercedes over BMW. Some other might prefer BMW over Mercedes over Ferrari. But does that mean that BMW or Ferrari or Mercedes is crap just because someone doesn't like it? Not really.

What you've been trying to say all along here is that you don't like Aion, but somehow what you really kept on saying is that Aion sucks. The two things are very different. You don't like Aion because it doesn't offer something that interest you. But you haven't shown anything at all that would support that Aion sucks because you know nothing about it other than second-hand information.

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I'm going off of quality, not only sales.

How are you able to find an objective meaning for "quality" without being subjective? What objective factors do you use to determine whether a game is good or bad quality? Just your own preference?

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I could go on, but why bother, I proved you wrong already.

Need I remind you of what you said? No RPG company on any platform has ever been able to trump Final Fantasy games. On sales number, I've shown you that there are RPG companies that trumped Final Fantasy games.

On quality, we haven't determined yet what objective factoring we'd like to use. But if we can just be reasonable and assume basic ideas (e.g.: storyline, gameplay, graphics, character development, etc), then there are definitely games that can trump Final Fantasy (Square/Square-Enix) games. The more traditional JRPGs would include Shin Megami Tensei series by Atlus, and Suikoden series by Konami. The newer style RPGs would see games like Fallout 3, Valkyria Chronicles by Sega, and Monster Hunter by Capcom. On SRPG front we do have Disgaea series by Nippon Ichi, Starcraft series by Blizzard, Fire Emblem series by Atlus. On MMORPG, it's even clearer that FFXI is not the top dog.

To say that nobody trumped Final Fantasy games in terms of quality is very questionable, especially when most Final Fantasy games follow the same formula (boy and girl romance, saving the world from the bad guy, little to no plot twist, bad guy not really having a good reason to actually want to destroy the world to begin with, etc). Unless what you're really trying to say is simply that you like Final Fantasy games the most out of everything else and that's the only reason that matters to you. That, I won't disagree because I'm obviously not you.

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As for the reasons why I think FFXIV will steal away people from WoW, it's pretty simple. WoW was a very good MMO to learn how online games play. But the difference is WoW is like other MMO's only on training wheels. WoW is an older game now and it's appeal is fading. The type of player that likes WoW is the the kind of player that likes "new shiny" games.

Ah I see what you're saying here. Because FF XIV is going to be released next year, it's going to be the "new shiny" games that will attract WoW fanbase.

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When I ask friends about their feelings about Aion, they compare it to another clone of WoW.

Might want to ask your friends where in WoW you can fly (not a mount that can fly btw), have aerial combat, PvPvE, customized equipment look, and deep character look customization. None? It seems that most WoW players use the term "Wow clone" way too loosely because they've been saying that to almost all MMORPGs out there except the ones that are very different (e.g.: grindy Korean MMORPG excluding Aion, and FFXI).

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FFXIV will have the superb graphics, sound, and all the trimmings plus it's own flavor. It won't feel like a clone, a sequel if anything.

Well some of the FFXI players themselves have been quite disappointed by the "same race, different names" that is used in FFXIV. Some other players have said that FFXIV is FFXI-clone because how similar it looks to FFXI. I personally don't feel that way, but I think that FFXIV being FFXI-clone is actually more reasonable than Aion being WoW-clone if you really think about it objectively.

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Even Vaagan admitted he wouldn't play a game that lost all his friends. That's all I'm saying here. I'm not arguing the overall success of the game, just it's hold on our region.

What you seem to miss out is that I played MMORPG with my friends. In the MMORPG itself, I made more new friends. If all of my original friends quit, I still have the new friends to play with. If they all quit as well, I can still make new friends again. I don't play an MMORPG just to play with my friends. I play because I want to play with my friends AND because I like the game.

Edited, Oct 7th 2009 2:30am by Vaagan
#84 Oct 07 2009 at 12:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Vaagan wrote:

Need I remind you of what you said? No RPG company on any platform has ever been able to trump Final Fantasy games. On sales number, I've shown you that there are RPG companies that trumped Final Fantasy games.

On quality, we haven't determined yet what objective factoring we'd like to use. But if we can just be reasonable and assume basic ideas (e.g.: storyline, gameplay, graphics, character development, etc), then there are definitely games that can trump Final Fantasy (Square/Square-Enix) games. The more traditional JRPGs would include Shin Megami Tensei series by Atlus, and Suikoden series by Konami. The newer style RPGs would see games like Fallout 3, Valkyria Chronicles by Sega, and Monster Hunter by Capcom. On SRPG front we do have Disgaea series by Nippon Ichi, Starcraft series by Blizzard, Fire Emblem series by Atlus. On MMORPG, it's even clearer that FFXI is not the top dog.


Where are your sales figures? According to the data I looked up, Final Fantasy has sold more than 85 million units world wide. Starcraft has sold a mere 11 million.

I find it amusing you mentioned all these Japanese RPG's except a certain series that cannot be sold on a school day due to kids skipping school to buy it. That series is none other than Dragon Quest with at least 50mil in sales world wide. Now that I've proven you wrong in sales, maybe you'll drop it.

On the MMORPG front, FFXI was a first attempt in online gaming. Square is a console developer and they were learning the ropes. FFXI isn't perfect and the Ps2 held it back quite a bit. FFXIV learned a lot from its big brother. I'm very optimistic that FFXIV will become a dominant force in the MMORPG scene by 2012.

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To say that nobody trumped Final Fantasy games in terms of quality is very questionable, especially when most Final Fantasy games follow the same formula (boy and girl romance, saving the world from the bad guy, little to no plot twist, bad guy not really having a good reason to actually want to destroy the world to begin with, etc).


What game are you talking about exactly? It wasn't until recent titles did romance play a serious role in FF games at all. FFVIII and FFX apply. FFIV was full of plot twists. You had no idea who was friend or foe. Nobody could have ever predicted Golbez was Cecil's brother. Final Fantasy Tactics on the PSX is the master of plot twists to this very day. In FFVI, Kefka actually destroys the world **** bent on obtaining power. I could go on, but it's late and I have to work in the morning.

At this point I'm done arguing with you. You're obviously a SE hater and your opinion isn't based in fact. Why are you in this forum anyway? You realize this is a FFXIV forum and we're excited for its release. All you've done in this thread is berate SE and their games all while touting Aion as a good game. You've made your point, now let it die. I don't care for Aion, but I'm not on their forums bashing the game.

Oh, one last thing. I don't think that most of the people complaining about FFXIV have any intention of buying the game anyways. Posters like GAXE just like to troll. They don't speak for the rest of us.




Edited, Oct 7th 2009 3:52am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#85 Oct 07 2009 at 3:27 AM Rating: Good
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Where are your sales figures? According to the data I looked up, Final Fantasy has sold more than 85 million units world wide. Starcraft has sold a mere 11 million.

Are you comparing ONE Starcraft game with ALL 20+ Final Fantasy games? Not a single Final Fantasy game sells for 10 million copies. If you want to combine ALL of Final Fantasy games and say that they outsell ONE Starcraft game to show the superiority of sales, well it's up to you, but you aren't exactly fooling anyone with that kind of comparison.

And did I even say that Starcraft outsold Final Fantasy games? Not at all. You need to read more carefully. I was saying that Starcraft (along with games like Disgaea, Shin Megami Tensei, Suikoden, Monster Hunter, etc) has QUALITY as good as or better than Final Fantasy games. I wasn't even talking about the numbers when it comes to Starcraft, but hey, I guess Starcraft still beats any single Final Fantasy game in sales number. If compared to 20+ Final Fantasy games, of course it doesn't win.

If you want to talk about ALL sales figure, it's easy .. Pokemon beats everyone. Red/Green/Blue alone sells for a whooping 31 million. Total sales is 100+ million copies. Does that mean that Pokemon is better than Final Fantasy now?

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I find it amusing you mentioned all these Japanese RPG's except a certain series that cannot be sold on a school day due to kids skipping school to buy it. That series is none other than Dragon Quest with at least 50mil in sales world wide. Now that I've proven you wrong in sales, maybe you'll drop it.

So half of Pokemon's number is proving that Square is number one in sales number? LOL. Not even a single Dragon Quest game reached 5 million mark. That's less than half of one single Starcraft game sales.

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What game are you talking about exactly? It wasn't until recent titles did romance play a serious role in FF games at all. FFVIII and FFX apply.

FF VII has Cloud-Tifa, FF VIII has Squall-Rinoa, FF IX has Zidane-Garnet, FFX has Tidus-Yuna, FFX-2 has Yuna-Tidus, FFXII is probably the one that doesn't have one because of the game implementing "no main character" system which is awesome btw. That's basically from 1997 to 2006 when it finally got broken down by FF XII. 10 years of romance focused games isn't a small matter to be ignored. Not to mention that these games are the top-selling of FF games while the older titles are selling for less.

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You're obviously a SE hater and your opinion isn't based in fact. Why are you in this forum anyway? You realize this is a FFXIV forum and we're excited for its release.

LOL that's the first time I've been called a SE hater. If any, I had been called being SE fanboy for my many attempts in defending FFXI from FFXI hater (boo hoo SE banned innocent players, boo hoo FFXI has crap security, boo hoo FFXI has RMT problems, boo hoo STF team not doing their job, etc) when I kept on asking them for their understanding that it's not easy to run MMORPG and that most of the times it's the players' own faults for being stupid with their account details.

I'm here in this forum because I'm excited by FF XIV release too. While you don't know it, I've already told my FFXI LS people that when XIV is released, I'll be quitting FFXI and play XIV though nobody from my LS would do that (they will stay in FFXI because of numerous different reasons). I play FFXI and Aion now. When XIV is released, I'll be playing Aion and FF XIV. In FF XIV world, I'll be alone (yes, that's right, ALONE) as in I wouldn't be knowing anyone who plays. My best friends from FFXI would NOT be in XIV. But you know what? People make new friends in MMORPGs. People don't just play with the people that they already knew ahead of time.

You might feel that I'm SE hater or Aion fanboy, but if you take your time to read my posts in this thread, you'd see that I'm simply telling people not to judge Aion when they don't even play the game. You play FFXI, would you be happy if you see someone bashing FFXI with non-sense when they don't even know what they're talking about? If someone said that FFXI is too easy because you can one-shot even the toughest mob in the game, would you just sit there or would you post to correct that uninformed comment? That's what's happening in this thread. People make uninformed comment about Aion despite not knowing what they're talking about.

You said that I don't use facts. In this thread, I've used so many facts. I've pointed out and corrected mistakes about Aion based on the game itself. I've used URLs to show the credential of Aion's composer. I even posted a few of Aion music examples on Youtube. I researched selling figures and compared them fairly (one game against one game, and not one game against a whole series that consist of 20+ games). I've even mentioned the things that I dislike about Aion based on what the game really is like.

When discussing with you, I've shown Aion Asian number as a fact. What did you do? You ignored it and saying it doesn't matter to you because you don't live in Asia and you only have NA friends. I've shown RPG titles that beat any single Final Fantasy game when it comes to sales. What did you do? You compared one game with the whole series (is that really fair comparion? ask yourself that).

As for Final Fantasy series, I think they're good. FFT is definitely up there for SRPG, but I'm not blind enough to ignore the high fun factor of Disgaea or the challenge factor from Fire Emblem. I really enjoyed FF IX and FF XII, but I'm not blind enough to ignore the excellent Persona 3, Persona 4, Suikoden II, Suikoden V either. I love FFXI, but I'm not blind enough to consider Aion rubbish. The impression that I got is that you only want to play Square products and nothing else. If you do play non-Square games, do mention here and see if there's anything that you like or not.

I guess what I'm trying to say to you is the same thing as what I said to those FFXI-hater who called me FFXI-fanboy. Be reasonable. Here's the thing, from this thread it's obvious that you love FFXIV. That's totally fine, but what's your need of bashing Aion when you don't even play the game at all? That's exactly the same thing I told those people who left FFXI for WoW and then praising WoW while continuing to bash FFXI. They don't even play FFXI anymore, why the need to bash a game that they don't play anymore? Why can't people who like FFXI just be left in peace?

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All you've done in this thread is berate SE and their games all while touting Aion as a good game. You've made your point, now let it die. I don't care for Aion, but I'm not on their forums bashing the game.

I care about FF XIV because I'm going to play it. I'm not on FF XIV forum bashing the game either. You can check each word I posted in this thread and you will find nothing at all where I bashed FF XIV (or FFXI for that matter).
#86 Oct 07 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Vaagan wrote:

I guess what I'm trying to say to you is the same thing as what I said to those FFXI-hater who called me FFXI-fanboy. Be reasonable. Here's the thing, from this thread it's obvious that you love FFXIV. That's totally fine, but what's your need of bashing Aion when you don't even play the game at all? That's exactly the same thing I told those people who left FFXI for WoW and then praising WoW while continuing to bash FFXI. They don't even play FFXI anymore, why the need to bash a game that they don't play anymore? Why can't people who like FFXI just be left in peace?


Exactly, which is why you have no business defending Aion in this thread. I could claim the sky was orange in Aion and all the characters were ***. You're the one in the wrong here, not I. I'm not in an Aion forum bashing people who play it. I choose to believe Aion is a fad that will die as soon as something "new and shiny" comes out. You don't care for that sediment so you keep arguing. Why do you feel the need to defend my hate of Aion when I don't even play the crappy game? I wouldn't play Aion if it was the last MMORG left on the market. I'd just go back to console games. :P
#87 Oct 07 2009 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I totally don't understand your logic at all that now I'm becoming suspicious that you're just trolling this thread.

1. This thread is basically created by the OP to wish FF XIV to be not like Aion.
2. I play Aion. I'm trying to correct the wrongly made comments by some of the people posting in this thread (e.g.: no strategy in Aion, no battle music, HUGE RMT issue, etc).
3. You don't play Aion. You aren't going to play Aion. Yet, you keep on bashing Aion for no reason despite knowing nothing about it.

Which one of us has more business to talk about Aion in this thread? You or me?
#88 Oct 07 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Vaagan wrote:

Which one of us has more business to talk about Aion in this thread? You or me?


This forum is for FFXIV, not Aion. There's bound to be a differences of opinion when describing the weaknesses of a competitive MMO. You've made it clear that you disagree with the OP and others that pointed out problems with Aion. For example, in order to rid yourself of the RMT, you have to do XYZ. Guess what, you shouldn't have to do that to be rid of them. Their presence alone is annoying. Some people in FFXI /blist players that annoy them. Others don't feel they should have to /blist someone if they ask the person to stop harassing them. It's not your place to say which method is right.

If someone feels that Aion lacks any strategy whatsoever, that's their opinion. We don't need some fanboy to defend those charges for 2 pages on a forum that's dedicated for another game. On top of it all, you get defensive because someone wasn't a certain level and didn't have a positive review of Aion. That's not your place to judge, sorry. If someone plays Aion, but doesn't reach a certain level, that doesn't disqualify their opinion. It only makes the claim that Aion sucks at the lower levels for sure. You can't compare Aion to FFXI and call that impartial. FFXI is an archaic game that is well beyond its years. FFXIV looks to address the flaws replace the out-dated engine of XI.

I agree with with OP, I don't want FFXIV to be anything like Aion. I don't care for it's WoW feel, low production values, lackluster music, horrible controls, bad UI, Asian MMO feel, RMT invested worlds, and the list goes on.
#89 Oct 07 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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You don't seem to understand the difference between thread and forum. I didn't create the thread and mention Aion. If someone made a thread in FFXI forum and compare FFXI with WoW, it doesn't mean that people can't talk about WoW. Comparing WoW and FFXI would be the topic in the thread. That's what happened here with a comparison between what Aion is and what FFXIV should (not) be like. To talk about Aion in this thread is very valid because that's what the topic of discussion in this thread.

But okay, I got your point.
#90 Oct 10 2009 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with with OP, I don't want FFXIV to be anything like Aion. I don't care for it's WoW feel, low production values, lackluster music, horrible controls, bad UI, Asian MMO feel, RMT invested worlds, and the list goes on.


You are pretty dumb if all you think about are the negatives. A sound and healthy way to look at it would be that XIV should borrow the good parts from Aion and good parts from XI and actually become the best MMO out there.

For example Aion has deep character customization. Are you willing to say you'd hate that in XIV? That you'd rather just have 8 races and one face for them all? No, we both know that you'd love any good thing from Aion in XIV, even if you wouldn't say so.
#91 Oct 10 2009 at 11:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't understand people's obsession with Aion in this forum. I see so many threads and posts bashing Aion and talking about how FFXIV is going to kill Aion when it release.. Who cares? Seriously you don't like Aion don't play it, don't think about it, pretend it doesn't exist.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not an Aion Fanboi. I don't play Aion I'm not interested in playing Aion nor am I interested in bashing Aion.
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#92 Oct 10 2009 at 11:12 PM Rating: Decent
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So wait... we're concerned a separate company, with separate MMO history, is going to make a game like another game that has absolutely no connection to it whatsoever because...

Wait.. I think I got lost in the thought process. Catch me up?
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