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The first thing that needs to be reported in betaFollow

#1 Oct 06 2009 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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In the character creation screen there is an issue with being able to select male miqo'te and female Roegadyn

Quote:
Q9: Are there any plans to add female Roegadyn and male Miqo'te?

A: Well, the character model designs are finished... But further details regarding their implementation have yet to be decided.


If everyone bugs them enough maybe we can get this through. Do it, its worth trying.
#2 Oct 06 2009 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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Seriously the cryptic answer stuff is getting annoying. I would love it if they would just respond with "NOOOO! We will not have a female Roegadyn nor a Male Miqo'te, get over it!"
#3 Oct 06 2009 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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Considering that at this point the majority of graphics and cutscenes are already being finalized and blocked, I wouldn't get my hopes up too much.


I can think of many more things I'd rather first hear about in the beta.

Edit: defaulted? oh alla

Edited, Oct 7th 2009 5:03pm by Kirbster
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#4 Oct 06 2009 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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With the logo finalized and all that CG work including no other races, it looks pretty unlikely they'll add anything new. But games have changed before. Plus MMOs are always changing.
#5 Oct 06 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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God you guys are persistent. Just play the game whatever way they make it. Does anyone even ******* want a female Galka?
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#6 Oct 06 2009 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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Some people do, but probably not in the way that you're imagining it.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#7 Oct 06 2009 at 5:31 PM Rating: Default
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Honestly, there are great backstories for why these are single gendered playable races. In both cases, there are indeed members of the opposite ***, but there are reasons that those are not the adventuring type (In FFXI and presumably FFXIV).

If you really really really want to play a cat-man, I think you just need to start LARPing.
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#8 Oct 06 2009 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Honestly, there are great backstories for why these are single gendered playable races. In both cases, there are indeed members of the opposite ***, but there are reasons that those are not the adventuring type


It's pretty asinine not to add them. I honestly never even cared to play them, but people have clamored for male Mithra since day 1. Backstory aside, the reason they gave officially was PS2 limitations. Well, that's not an excuse anymore.

Yadda yadda, different world, different backstories anyway. At the very least it would help XIV to not feel like XI-2.

And there are no Galka female-- Galka are asexual, but I have seen decent fan art and can imagine a desirable Galka female model.

Quote:
If you really really really want to play a cat-man, I think you just need to start LARPing.


It's understandable that people are miffed by SE yet again failing to acknowledge their desires. Being able to make the kind of character you want is one of the most fundamental aspects of making an appealing MMO.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#9 Oct 06 2009 at 6:29 PM Rating: Good
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Personally I think the skew towards female or male makes the races infinitely more interesting and increases the potential for more interesting backstories, but that's just me.

Edited, Oct 6th 2009 7:31pm by Kirbster
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#10 Oct 06 2009 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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I understand that, I just don't think it's a good tradeoff for the people that actually want to play those race/gender combos. It doesn't add nearly as much for all the people that don't care as it takes away from the ones that do.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#11 Oct 06 2009 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Why do people want to play these unavailable races so badly? Is it pure aesthetics? They are clearly not in the game for a reason, and part of experiencing the game is accepting that.

I understand that character customization is something people want. And I know that FFXI was limited in just how unique you could make a character. But there are limitations, and in this case, gender just happens to be one.

Maybe it's just not in my blood, but I have no qualms with the lack of male miqo'te or female roegadyn.

[edit]Yes, this most certainly deserved to be down rated. I was rude, obscene, and just generally disagreeable...[/edit]

Edited, Oct 7th 2009 10:53am by striveldt
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#12 Oct 06 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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#13 Oct 06 2009 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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See, if there were female galka, that wouldn't nearly be as horrifyingly funny to me.

Edited, Oct 6th 2009 8:36pm by Kirbster
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#14 Oct 06 2009 at 7:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Does anyone even @#%^ing want a female Galka?


This is why we need female Roegadyn.

Reproducing asexually is lame.

Roegadyn are going to the biggest mofos in the game and they are fisherman, that’s equivalent to being a lumberjack, and being a lumberjack is the manliest thing anyone can be, and you want to say the roughest saltiest swaggerin' scallywags that ever sailed the seven seas, reproduce asexually ?!?!?!

I say nay sir, nay! These sailors should be able to do like sailors do, find a bar, find a wench, and bust a green nut. SE wants to imply that after a month on the sea the best they can do is ruin a tube sock (if their lucky) because SE is too lazy to make a new character model?

As for male miqo'te, people have been yelling for them for years, and if you’re not going to make at least one new race, at least give the fans what they want.


*note: I know it hasn't been confirmed they reproduce asexually, but they better come up with some epic tale why there is no green gals running around anymore.

Edited, Oct 6th 2009 11:52pm by sirhenrywalton
#15 Oct 06 2009 at 8:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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But there aren't limitations anymore?

The fact we had single gender races and saw the same blue crab day in and day out aren't mutually exclusive events. It was clever, how they used storyline to conceal technical and financial shortcomings. They did that for a great quantity of the game, and it was always very well done. Kudos to them for making the best of it.

But now?
With money enough for a five year production cycle, the hearty PS3 to design for, and a japanese fanbase that is just crazy about the idea? Something's just not adding up here. Any time I ponder what they must be thinking I end up with a worried frown.


I understand there's some folks who couldn't care less what their avatar looks like. They hit the randomize button and never think twice about it. But, there are others still who live for the aesthetics, and something like this is very important. Being apathetic to an idea, isn't a good reason to be against it.




Edited, Oct 7th 2009 12:28am by Zemzelette
#16 Oct 06 2009 at 8:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette wrote:
But there aren't limitations anymore?

The fact we had single gender races and saw the same blue crab day in and day out aren't mutually exclusive events. It was clever, how they used storyline to conceal technical and financial shortcomings. They did that for a great quantity of the game, and it was always very well done. My kudos to them for making the best of a bad situation.

But now?
With money enough for a five year production cycle, the hearty PS3 to design for, and a japanese fanbase that is just crazy about the idea? Something's just not adding up here. Any time I ponder what they must be thinking I end up with a worried frown.


I understand there's some folks who couldn't care less what their avatar looks like. They hit the randomize button and never think twice about it. But, there are other still who live for the aesthetics, and something like this is very important. Being apathetic to an idea, isn't a good reason to be against it.


Edited, Oct 7th 2009 12:10am by Zemzelette


I'm nuts about the aesthetics, and I still could take or leave the gender changes. I might have argued otherwise if customization didn't look like it was going to be a key point in XIV. Also, I mentioned above, I think the limitations create the potential to make the race backstories more unique and interesting, and character interactions in general.

It does seem odd that they would deny male Miqo'te, (even though I think the demand for them is somewhat overstated by a pretty vocal minority) but I doubt there's a sinister conspiracy behind it as much as simply a design decision that they wish to stick to.

And as to XI, I wouldn't say that that the primary reason of single gender races were for technical and financial shortcomings. I doubt they had the mithra and galka in concepting and went 'oh, we don't have enough money, cut the female Galka and the male Mithra, guys. Don't worry, we'll fix it in post' as much as it was a 'hey, wouldn't it be cool if-' situation.

It happened to also be good considering resource limitations, but I think that was more of a two birds with one stone bonus than the primary intention.

Edited, Oct 7th 2009 5:48pm by Kirbster
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#17 Oct 06 2009 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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[derail]

Quote:
*note: I know it hasn't been confirmed they reproduce asexually, but they better come up with some epic tale why there is no green gals running around anymore.


I haven't played the game in over a year and it's been even longer since I did the relevant quest line, but it it's strongly implied in the game that Galkas reproduced asexually. Actually, reproduction isn't even the word I'd use for it. "Reborn" or "reincarnation" works better. As the story went old Galkas would simply leave home and after a while a new young Galka would return to replace him. Or something to that effect anyway.

Screenshot


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#18 Oct 06 2009 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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i can see why ppl would want a male/female counterpart for them. but personally i didnt like the 2 races in the 1st place. they were ok but i never played as either of them. tbh id like to see some new races and not that same ones re-done.
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#19 Oct 06 2009 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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Oh absolutely, the armor customization is just a happy concept all around.
No arguments there. If I do end up playing XIV, I can tell alot of my time is going to be spent messing with that particular customization feature.

But I haven't seen a whole helluva' lot from the character customization side of aesthetics though. I guess when you make the difference between races so minor, you've kind of tied your own hands. You can't make a small chubby Elz without making it seem like a Lala, you can't make a big strong Hyur without making it seem like a Roe. I think customization, at least on the character end of aesthetics, is going to mainly be a colors thing.
That's not bad, but.....meh.


Hmmm. Maybe I'm just jaded.
You might be right insomuch that every little thing about a game is planned out well in advance for the sake of courting a financial backer, but you might be wrong insomuch that every little thing about a game is planned out well in advance for the sake of courting a financial backer. Those kind of cost effective decisions are rarely happy accidents (unfortunately). But I'll concede that I have no way of knowing for absolute certain.

Edited, Oct 7th 2009 2:02am by Zemzelette
#20 Oct 06 2009 at 9:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
But I haven't seen a whole helluva' lot from the character customization side of aesthetics though.


I've noticed small things in the trailers and different screenshots, like the wide nose on the GalkaRoegadyn in the TGS trailer and the very sharp, pointy nose on the Miqo'te, which might suggest that we'll be having decent facial customization in the least.

Or here's to hoping, anyway.
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#21TheShadowWalker, Posted: Oct 06 2009 at 10:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Wow, and here I was thinking it was asinine to insult someone for making a video game that hundreds of thousands enjoyed.
#22 Oct 07 2009 at 2:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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First, lmao @ sirhenrywalton

Quote:
Why do people want to play these unavailable races so badly? Is it pure aesthetics? They are clearly not in the game for a reason, and part of experiencing the game is accepting that.


Why does anyone want to play any race at all? I'm sure you would care if it were the race you wanted to play. And look, if players don't like something, as other MMO developers have pointed out, they are expected to vocalize it so that the developers can provide their players with a better product and experience.

The main reason that people are so stuck on Mithra/Galka gender counterparts is because the reminder is always there. Do people complain that there are no dog people? No, because the game never even puts the thought in your head. Do people complain that there are no playable goblins? No, and there are sure people who want that, I assure you, but they accept that a game needs enemies, too.

But these two options are just too obvious, making the absence of the option all too noticeable. It's like the difference between not having ice cream because there's no ice cream around, and not having ice cream because the guy who has all the free ice cream in the world right in front of you just doesn't feel like giving it to you, even though he says he's interested in what you want. ******* jerk.

Quote:
And as to XI, I wouldn't say that that the primary reason of single gender races were for technical and financial shortcomings.


I wouldn't be surprised if it had nothing to do with their original decision not to include them, but they explicitly stated at a fan interview, after years of constantly being asked, that they could not add it because of the PS2.

Quote:
(even though I think the demand for them is somewhat overstated by a pretty vocal minority)


To be fair, you could say the same thing about half of the races in XI. There was definitely less demand for Galka than male Mithra, and a number of other race/gender combos only account for 15% or less of the population. So yes, minorities, but not insignificant minorities. We don't make it a policy to write off the concerns of African Americans just because they're a vocal 12% of the U.S. (although there are some who would surely like to.) 12% is a lot. ****, even 1% is nothing to scoff at. That's potentially tens of thousands of players, and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Quote:
Wow, and here I was thinking it was asinine to insult someone for making a video game that hundreds of thousands enjoyed.


Uhhh... I'm so sorry if I insulted SE by pointing out one of the many poor decisions they've been a party to? You don't receive criticism very well, do you? Apparently not even when it isn't directed towards you. Overreact much? If you're going to take it upon yourself to chastise everyone who has criticisms of FFXI, I hope you're prepared to make a not very lucrative career out of it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#23 Oct 07 2009 at 3:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
This is why we need female Roegadyn.

Reproducing asexually is lame.

Roegadyn are going to the biggest mofos in the game and they are fisherman, that’s equivalent to being a lumberjack, and being a lumberjack is the manliest thing anyone can be, and you want to say the roughest saltiest swaggerin' scallywags that ever sailed the seven seas, reproduce asexually ?!?!?!

I say nay sir, nay! These sailors should be able to do like sailors do, find a bar, find a wench, and bust a green nut. SE wants to imply that after a month on the sea the best they can do is ruin a tube sock (if their lucky) because SE is too lazy to make a new character model?

As for male miqo'te, people have been yelling for them for years, and if you’re not going to make at least one new race, at least give the fans what they want.


*note: I know it hasn't been confirmed they reproduce asexually, but they better come up with some epic tale why there is no green gals running around anymore.


I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay.
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#24 Oct 07 2009 at 4:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
But these two options are just too obvious, making the absence of the option all too noticeable. It's like the difference between not having ice cream because there's no ice cream around, and not having ice cream because the guy who has all the free ice cream in the world right in front of you just doesn't feel like giving it to you, even though he says he's interested in what you want. @#%^ing jerk.


It's kind of more like wanting Neapolitan and the ice cream guy doesn't want to have to mix up three flavors for you.


People are just going to have to accept the fact that SE doesn't want those genders to be playable/exist. 'People want it' isn't always a good reason, design-wise. People often want stupid things and things that clash with an intended design. Is it stupid in this case? Not really, it's understandable that some people might want those genders. But would it be gauged 'unnecessary' at this point in development? I would think so.

In my experience, people aren't not going to play if those genders aren't in the game, and the meager handful that do end up not playing won't make a difference, financially. It is about appeasing the core audience first, and making sure everything is working fine, and then listening to these smaller demands.


Quote:
To be fair, you could say the same thing about half of the races in XI. There was definitely less demand for Galka than male Mithra, and a number of other race/gender combos only account for 15% or less of the population. So yes, minorities, but not insignificant minorities.


Can't please everyone, especially in an MMO. Companies make decisions and know that it's always going to **** off some portion of the fanbase. That being said, I don't think the absence of say, the galka from XIV, would automatically mean the Galkas from XI would refuse to play XIV, either, instead of simply making a new character.

But the reason they kept the Galka in particular was so they could retain a wide variety of base body types and archetypes to satisfy the most people possible.

ie:
Humes: Balanced, average build.
Taru: Small and cute.
Elvaan: Tall and Elegant.
Mithra: Thin and Agile.
Galka: Large and muscular.

We'll have to wait and see what the parameters for shifting the body and face types are, I suppose.


And now I want ice cream.

Edited, Oct 7th 2009 5:39am by Kirbster
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#25 Oct 07 2009 at 4:22 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:


Uhhh... I'm so sorry if I insulted SE by pointing out one of the many poor decisions they've been a party to? You don't receive criticism very well, do you? Apparently not even when it isn't directed towards you. Overreact much? If you're going to take it upon yourself to chastise everyone who has criticisms of FFXI, I hope you're prepared to make a not very lucrative career out of it.
There's a difference between constructive criticism and being a ****. Saying, "here are some reason why you should be able to be male/female [whatever] ...etc..." is constructive. Whereas, "it's asinine they didn't do this" is not. In fact, there nothing comes out of that second statement.

Just another person that doesn't understand the subtleties of civilized discussion.

The argument "people want it" is pretty weak. Can't always get what you want. So far, SE is pretty good at making compelling storylines. Maybe people should just leave them to their business.
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#26 Oct 07 2009 at 5:49 AM Rating: Good
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Kirbster wrote:
Personally I think the skew towards female or male makes the races infinitely more interesting


Then all races should be limited to one ***.

"More customization" > "Less customization," especially in a game where you will very likely have only one character throughout the entire experience.
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#27 Oct 07 2009 at 7:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

retain a wide variety of base body types and archetypes to satisfy the most people possible.

Humes: Balanced, average build.
Taru: Small and cute.
Elvaan: Tall and Elegant.
Mithra: Thin and Agile.
Galka: Large and muscular.<--- with no female counter part = big squishy


I better be able to have a bad *** mustach and mutton chops to compensate.

Also this misses two sets of groups, people who wanna run around playing xena warrior princess, and every one who would rather be a rum tum tugger than a manthra.

Edited, Oct 7th 2009 11:11am by sirhenrywalton
#28 Oct 07 2009 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi , Isn't there a thread about this running around as well? I like how people whom don't care either way are the first to reject the idea. I think they should add both female Roe's and male Miqo'te. This is XIV correct? Not XI-2? SE stated the reason for not implementing it before was indeed the PS2...So what's the hang up now? Nothing. SE has stated they tend to make it familiar to XI players but with a new story/ direction as well and just like one of the previous posters said this would follow along those lines.I'm all for what the "op" said about bugging SE about this issue(IE petition or whatever). SE needs do do as they say and listen to their customers! Now before someone says well why not have a (insert crazy idea here). It doesn't detract from the game , It adds a new feel and another distinction between XI and XIV. and the fact it is not a whim from the player base it has been on players minds and vocalised by players from all around the world for years.I have a suspicion that SE has something up their sleeve still.
#29 Oct 07 2009 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
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Why do people want to play these unavailable races so badly? Is it pure aesthetics? They are clearly not in the game for a reason, and part of experiencing the game is accepting that.


The whole damned game is made up of aesthetics!

Yes, it matters alot to people that we be able to like what our character looks like, how armor/spells/actions look, etc.

If we didn't, we'd be playing WoW! (J/K)
#30 Oct 07 2009 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I understand that people want to make the characters they want, but it seems silly to basically demand that SE add these genders.

You aren't allowed to make a goblin character. What if people really wanted that? Every game has limitations to character creation.

We should be happy that SE allows us to be any job we choose, regardless of race. WoW and EQII (and probably others) limit what jobs are available based on your race. What if you couldn't be an archer unless you were a miqo'te?


[PS. Karma camper, knock it off. My posts may disagree with the OP, but they are respectful.]

Edited, Oct 7th 2009 12:07pm by striveldt
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#31 Oct 07 2009 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Godmaster wrote:
The whole damned game is made up of aesthetics!


Not true. People wouldn't dare wear subligar if it were pure aesthetics
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#32 Oct 07 2009 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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So, their best option is to simply give everyone what they want from day 1? That doesn't seem like the best business model to me. I mean, think about it - are people not going to play the game because they can't be a female Rogaedyn? Doubtful. But now imagine down the line, they add female Rogaedyn, suddenly everyone clamors to make an alt, and guess what, it keeps you playing (and paying) for a few extra months - why do you think they added new jobs to FFXI or kept changing which DD class was the best? They've got to leave themselves someplace to go, whether it be races or story arcs, and they most certainly want to do everything they can to keep people playing (and paying) longer. Obviously, you have to strike a balance between giving people enough to get them in and holding enough back to keep them interested, but as others have said, this issue isn't going to prevent the sale of many accounts.

I guess I'd rather they spend their time working on improving combat mechanics and refining storylines. Development time is not infinite and to give everyone everything they want is simply not possible - games that try to do so invariably fall short because they wind up having EVERY facet of the game be underdeveloped. I mean, you guys do understand exactly how much work has to be done for each individual race and gender, right?

I understand people's desire for it, but to act like it's some grave injustice carried out by this malevolent being that has it in their power to fulfill our wildest dreams, but is choosing not to because they're turds, is a bit much, don't you think?

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#33 Oct 07 2009 at 9:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think many people would create an alt simply to play a female galka. Especially since the game will be like FFXI and you'll only ever need to play one character. Gender and race, in a game where you only need one character to play all classes, is a must have for right when you start the game. If it were like WoW and you had to start a new character to play another class it would be a good business model to hold back...which is one reason why Cataclysm is going to be one of the biggest WoW expansion.

It doesn't take much time to create a slightly different model from a race you already have and it can't take away much time from game mechanics because the artists aren't doing that now are they?

If SE doesn't make a male mithra the only reason is because in their artistic view they think it shouldn't be in the game. I personally don't care about their artistic view. If 90% of the players want a male mithra they should have it and a company who doesn't listen to that much of a majority of their playerbase gives people enough doubt to mistrust any game they might develop.
#34 Oct 07 2009 at 9:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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I understand people's desire for it, but to act like it's some grave injustice carried out by this malevolent being that has it in their power to fulfill our wildest dreams, but is choosing not to because they're turds, is a bit much, don't you think?


The first thing that SE wanted to focus on was reaching ffxi player base, and I big chunk say I want gender counter parts. They already had the concepts of the other races from recycling those of ffxi, so it’s not much to expect them to actualy do some work and make the opposite gender models when ffxi fans have been pleading for them, and SE wants to pull the ffxi base.

If they announced male mithras and female galka tons of people would stop what they were doing pick up a spatula walk outside and find the nearest **** and flip it.


It is not going to affect game play, and if SE can't give us something as trivial as male mithra, that makes a reflection on how well we can expect for them to listen to the players paying for the games services.
If I’m going to spend hours playing a single character I better be able to be happy with it.

So yeah, they’re being big stinky pooh-pooh heads.
#35 Oct 07 2009 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Yog, I don't have the numbers off hand, but I'm pretty certain that many, many, MANY XI players created 2nd characters of a different race, even if it was just to putz around with.

And yes, artists are not designing game mechanics, but they're still getting paid. When you increase the workload of the art department, you must either A) hire more artists or B) give the current group of artists more time. If you choose A, that means you must then either C) increase your overall budget or D) cut money from other departments. If you choose B, you also have to increase your budget, since more time worked means more money paid. Since you can't likely just increase budget to your hearts content, then to compensate for the additional art, D is your only option. And perhaps to give more money to art, you have to take some money from the team working on combat mechanics or storyline, in which case one of them will have to suffer at the expense of art.

And your assertion that it doesn't take much time to add another gender to a race is not accurate. All new animation (women and men don't run the same, do they?), new facial expressions, new voice acting roles, new NPC development, and new skins for virtually every costume item in the game. That sounds like more than 20 minutes of work to me.

As for it being their "artistic view" that prevents them from including these races - I can't speak to that because I don't know all their reasoning. But I do know they have sold millions upon millions upon millions of games, so maybe they have a small idea about what exactly it is they are doing. I will say one thing for certain - they're not excluding things just to **** you off.
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#36 Oct 07 2009 at 11:28 AM Rating: Default
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veldt wrote:
Just another person that doesn't understand the subtleties of civilized discussion.
F@CK YOU YOU F@CKING ******* STFU AND GET THE **** OUT OF THIS THREAD YOU F@CKING ***** BOY. F@CK YOU GET A LIFE YOU'RE SOO UGLY AND STUPID YOU'RE FUGLY!

(welcome to the internet, grow some skin. sidenote: lol)
veldt wrote:
The argument "people want it" is pretty weak.
No, it's not. SE wants money, people want X, SE should give them X in exchange for money. Not giving people what they want, on the other hand, is a pretty ****** business model. If SE isn't providing a service players want, players have no real reason to give SE money.
MachallOdin wrote:
But now imagine down the line, they add female Rogaedyn, suddenly everyone clamors to make an alt, and guess what, it keeps you playing (and paying) for a few extra months - why do you think they added new jobs to FFXI or kept changing which DD class was the best? They've got to leave themselves someplace to go, whether it be races or story arcs, and they most certainly want to do everything they can to keep people playing (and paying) longer. [...]And yes, artists are not designing game mechanics, but they're still getting paid. When you increase the workload of the art department, you must either A) hire more artists or B) give the current group of artists more time. If you choose A, that means you must then either C) increase your overall budget or D) cut money from other departments. If you choose B, you also have to increase your budget, since more time worked means more money paid. Since you can't likely just increase budget to your hearts content, then to compensate for the additional art, D is your only option. And perhaps to give more money to art, you have to take some money from the team working on combat mechanics or storyline, in which case one of them will have to suffer at the expense of art.
Adding new races later on is a much more difficult and a much bigger workload than adding them from the start. Given the amount of customization they seem to be promising in every other part of your character, it just seems silly not to add M-Mith and F-Galka.
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#37 Oct 07 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Shin, to a certain extent, I understand what you're saying, but it's not as simple as, "We want X. Here is our money. Now give us X." Ignoring peoples' wants IS a crappy business model. But so is trying to satisfy every whim from every player. I'm not saying that a male Miq is a particularly unreasonable request either, but to simplify it to the point of "we're paying for it, we should get what we want" just doesn't work.

I don't presume to know why they have made these decisions, but again, I can assure you that it is not spite. How do we know there won't be something that happens in the story to explain the absence of these race/gender combos? I certainly don't know for sure.

Personally, I'm trusting that SE has their reasons for the exclusion, and since I don't really care anyways, it's pretty easy for me to avoid getting my knickers in a twist over it. I just don't care for the attitude on this board that Square Enix somehow OWES them something. If it bothers you SO much that you refuse to play the game, so be it. They have their reasons for not doing it, be it storyline, economic, or laziness driven, and they're betting that it won't stop you from ponying up your money to play. It's a calculated risk and if I were a betting man, I'd wager on it working out just fine for them.
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#38 Oct 07 2009 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Valhallodin wrote:
Yog, I don't have the numbers off hand, but I'm pretty certain that many, many, MANY XI players created 2nd characters of a different race, even if it was just to putz around with.


Yes, but you were making an argument that people will continue playing the game because of it...you don't continue playing a game because you suddenly created a mule of another race. Especially not gender.

Valhallodin wrote:
And yes, artists are not designing game mechanics, but they're still getting paid. When you increase the workload of the art department, you must either A) hire more artists or B) give the current group of artists more time. If you choose A, that means you must then either C) increase your overall budget or D) cut money from other departments. If you choose B, you also have to increase your budget, since more time worked means more money paid. Since you can't likely just increase budget to your hearts content, then to compensate for the additional art, D is your only option. And perhaps to give more money to art, you have to take some money from the team working on combat mechanics or storyline, in which case one of them will have to suffer at the expense of art.

And your assertion that it doesn't take much time to add another gender to a race is not accurate. All new animation (women and men don't run the same, do they?), new facial expressions, new voice acting roles, new NPC development, and new skins for virtually every costume item in the game. That sounds like more than 20 minutes of work to me.


I was going to go more into detail on the artists but I decided to leave it how it was but I do know that there is still work and development involved. Just not nearly as much. How do you think they created male and female humes? Do you think they started from scratch for both of them? No, they either made one and used that to work on the other or they branched off at some point in the development. My point is creating another gender on a race they already have, unless they are completely different in appearance, isn't very time consuming in comparison. Especially considering the number of people who want it.

Valhallodin wrote:
As for it being their "artistic view" that prevents them from including these races - I can't speak to that because I don't know all their reasoning. But I do know they have sold millions upon millions upon millions of games, so maybe they have a small idea about what exactly it is they are doing. I will say one thing for certain - they're not excluding things just to **** you off.


I don't much care about how many millions of games they have sold, if we are talking about a business model like your original post was talking about, you still need to sell more than last year and to do that you need to appeal to your audience. Just because they have sold millions doesn't mean they will continue doing so. Plus, who is to say the same people are working there. Many of the head guys still do but I'm sure many of the people who do most of the work (the ones who actually made the games that sold millions) have moved on to other projects or companies. Many companies have gone belly up because they assumed their brand will still sell without listening to their customers.
#39 Oct 07 2009 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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Is it too much to just ask for something new? I already felt the selection was sparse the first time around, but could accept it due to the limitations of the PS2. This time the decision to reuse everything with a new label just makes SE appear stubborn and lazy. They've been developing this game for how long and couldn't come up with one new race, or even at the very least a gender variation of an existing race? How much work would it really take to take an existing model and change the gender? Much of art assets would be the same.

People need to remember that these are not Mithra and Galka. The back stories explained the single gender options for them but we're dealing with supposedly brand new races in a brand new world this time around. It just seems silly to reuse the same excuses when they're supposed to be delivering us a new story.
#40 Oct 07 2009 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Here's two ways to look at this, in a slightly different light:

1) I would wager that nearly everyone interested in male miqo'te and female roegadyn were players of FFXI and have 'suffered' the lack of these races for a while. For them, it seems like being spit on for SE to not include them in what is essentially a game made for FFXI players. Do you think there are people who didn't play FFXI that care about this?

2) If they had male miqo'te and female roegadyn, but had no male lalfell and no female elezen, would people want those too?
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#41 Oct 07 2009 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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striveldt wrote:
Here's two ways to look at this, in a slightly different light:

1) I would wager that nearly everyone interested in male miqo'te and female roegadyn were players of FFXI and have 'suffered' the lack of these races for a while. For them, it seems like being spit on for SE to not include them in what is essentially a game made for FFXI players. Do you think there are people who didn't play FFXI that care about this?


Though SE has stated they intend FFXIV to have a much broader appeal you still make a very good argument. It's obvious that the only people who are concerned about the genders are those who played FFXI. Even when I first played the game when it first came out it was an issue. The fact that SE still fails to address this just shows that SE doesn't really care about us. Add that to the laundry list of poor public relations and customer service and it just tells those who have had issues that if we want to play the game be ready to be treated like trash. You then have to weigh the circumstance, is the game good enough to put up with SE or not? A company should NEVER have you making that choice and certainly companies fail because they make their customers choose between the two.

I told myself last year that I would never play FFXI again because of their horrid billing system. They are changing it for FFXIV so I'm willing to play it but if they make another situation similar to that there are plenty of games coming out in the next year or two that could very well obtain my business (WoW: Cataclysm, Star Trek Online and Star Wars: The Old Republic to name a few) and I'm sure there are legions of people who are thinking the same way. I am following 5 games or more that all have an equal chance at this point to gain my loyalty and I'm only going to play one, possibly two, since one of them is Diablo III and I might be able to play that as well as an MMO at the same time.
#42 Oct 07 2009 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
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...you don't continue playing a game because you suddenly created a mule of another race. Especially not gender.

But yes, you do. Maybe less in this game than others, because all jobs are available to all races, but I know of several people who spent considerable time leveling mules, mostly because they were a Galkan and wanted to try out Tarutaru, or something similar. I'm not saying this is WHY they don't have them, but it's one possibility.

Quote:
I was going to go more into detail on the artists but I decided to leave it how it was but I do know that there is still work and development involved. Just not nearly as much. How do you think they created male and female humes? Do you think they started from scratch for both of them? No, they either made one and used that to work on the other or they branched off at some point in the development. My point is creating another gender on a race they already have, unless they are completely different in appearance, isn't very time consuming in comparison. Especially considering the number of people who want it.


Maybe it's not time consuming in comparison, but it's still time consuming. It still takes a lot of work to add another gender to a race, especially if there are large differences in shapes and sizes.

Quote:
I don't much care about how many millions of games they have sold, if we are talking about a business model like your original post was talking about, you still need to sell more than last year and to do that you need to appeal to your audience. Just because they have sold millions doesn't mean they will continue doing so. Plus, who is to say the same people are working there. Many of the head guys still do but I'm sure many of the people who do most of the work (the ones who actually made the games that sold millions) have moved on to other projects or companies. Many companies have gone belly up because they assumed their brand will still sell without listening to their customers.


True, past success does not guarantee future success. But it certainly hints at it. We're not talking about a little spin-off company here, I think it's safe to say that SE has a solid idea of how to run things. And if this game does fail, do you honestly think it will be because hundreds of thousands of people didn't buy it because they couldn't be a female Rogaedyn?

This whole concept of "We want it, give it to us!" without any awareness of the ramifications is childish.
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#43 Oct 07 2009 at 1:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have to chime in on this thread too. I liked the part about playable goblin race. Will there be one? No. But I can dream damnit! I'll just make the ugliest lalafell I can, and name it Frypanbonger Amsaimix (surname ftw... /joy). LOL!

All slighty disturbing imagery aside, SE has stated that the game is a work in progress. Nothing they have shown is set in stone, or so they have stated. They have said they want to include the fans in the making of the game to get feedback as they develop the game. Now, how involved and to what extent they will do this is anyones guess.

That being said, I think it is entirely possible for them to implement the female galka and male mithra. Will they do it, it seems like they might. The answer they have always given in the past was always no, or they would side step the subject by pointing out all the character customization available with the other races/genders. Now, all of the sudden, they admit to having made the models for them?

If they know how much some people want the other genders, why would they even bring up the fact that they have the models if they are not planning on including them? Why SE....... you big tease! This doesn't make it concrete that they will have the male mithra or female galka. However, it is pretty suspicious. My opinion is that they were planning on having them anyway, but were saying no or being vague for added suspense. Either that or they underestimated how much of an issue it was not to include them and are now back pedaling as fast as they possibly can.

The only hang up in my theory is the fact that I am uncertain about the information source. It is not a citeable source, and only a response to questions from FFXICORE. However, if it is true, I don't think they would mention the character models and that it was still undetermined as to whether they would be implemented. That implies that they can add them in, and it is still under debate. So if they are listening to the fans, then it would likely be included, if at all possible. Otherwise, why even bring it up? Getting the fans hopes up for no reason is not a very good idea. If there is no posibility of the new genders, then they should say it clearly, and not even give the suggestion it is under debate.

Ultimately, this issue doesn't effect me because I plan on being a taru. I just wanted to chime in with my 2 gil in this topic. And also...... playable goblin race would own all your galka and mithra no matter the gender!!!! hahahaha
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#44 Oct 07 2009 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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To me, it sounds like they've "made all the models in the game" already, not that they've included male Miqo'te or female Roeg's. Truthfully, I don't really care one way or the other. I am satisfied if what we see is what we get. I've never understood the obsession with the need for cat boys or female Hulks, but I do understand that there may be roleplaying reasons or people that play a race for the stats but hate the fact that it cannot match their own genders... though I won't necessarily agree with them.

Long story short, don't care one way or the other--Game'll be fun regardless of aesthetics.
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#45 Oct 07 2009 at 1:35 PM Rating: Default
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In my opinion; male mithra should be added, galkas should stay male-only (design is based too heavily on exaggerated male features), more races should be added that aren't FFXI-based.
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#46 Oct 07 2009 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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striveldt wrote:
Here's two ways to look at this, in a slightly different light:

1) I would wager that nearly everyone interested in male miqo'te and female roegadyn were players of FFXI and have 'suffered' the lack of these races for a while. For them, it seems like being spit on for SE to not include them in what is essentially a game made for FFXI players. Do you think there are people who didn't play FFXI that care about this?

2) If they had male miqo'te and female roegadyn, but had no male lalfell and no female elezen, would people want those too?


I came into FFXI with no prior knowledge of the races that would be available, and was disappointed by not only the lack of choices, but the lack of a male mithra. What makes you think that, six years later, new players will be any more accepting of these limitations? Saying that ex-FFXI players are the only ones interested in male miqo'te at this point would only be true because they make up the majority of those following the game. After FFXIV releases, the percentage of the total player base that cares will probably be the same. People expect more options these days. Heck I came from EQ originally and I think we had at least 9 races available at launch, complete with both genders.

If they had no male lalfell and no female elezen you can bet people would be complain. Placing gender restrictions on any playable race that already exists in the game is going to disappoint a significant number of people.

Also, I wanted to add that I ended up playing a Mithra anyway because I liked the race and the stats fit what I wanted to play, but having to constantly explain to people that you are a guy gets annoying after awhile. If male mithra were an option from the start that never would have been an issue.

Edited, Oct 7th 2009 6:03pm by Calispel
#47 Oct 07 2009 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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In my opinion; male mithra should be added, galkas should stay male-only (design is based too heavily on exaggerated male features), more races should be added that aren't FFXI-based.


woah, woah, woah! someone needs to stop chuggin the hateraid! green guys need love too.

As for female Roegadyn it would prolly go down like this just more green and it would be your character getting the smack down...



Edited, Oct 7th 2009 7:03pm by sirhenrywalton
#48 Oct 07 2009 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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And yet again, the thread with the topic of manthras turns into people madly jamming the red arrow for people who politely disagree and blindly uprating without bothering to comprehend the posts.

I'm not even saying I would reject Male Miqo'te. Honestly I don't care either way.

I'm just being realistic and going off of studio experience.

You can whine and ***** all you want about the choice SE made,
but unless it's a very significant portion of the fanbase that wants it,
(and you're fooling yourself if you think there is, compared to people who don't care at all,) they aren't going to change anything this late in the production pipeline.

And that's pretty much that.

Edited, Oct 7th 2009 5:50pm by Kirbster
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#49 Oct 07 2009 at 10:40 PM Rating: Good
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People are just going to have to accept the fact that SE doesn't want those genders to be playable/exist. 'People want it' isn't always a good reason, design-wise. People often want stupid things and things that clash with an intended design. Is it stupid in this case? Not really, it's understandable that some people might want those genders. But would it be gauged 'unnecessary' at this point in development? I would think so.

In my experience, people aren't not going to play if those genders aren't in the game, and the meager handful that do end up not playing won't make a difference, financially. It is about appeasing the core audience first, and making sure everything is working fine, and then listening to these smaller demands.


The thing is, there are people who AREN'T going to play if they don't see any new races, among other things to set XIV apart from XI. And if you're going to make new races anyway, why pass over the obvious, and the already demanded?

It's not about I WANT FEMALE GALKA, because you're right-- not a lot of people want to actually play the strong, amazonian woman. But almost everyone wants new races, and the number of players who want to see them in the world is far greater than the number who actually want to play them. I promise, promise, promise you-- subscriptions will suffer without new playable character options, and they will suffer enough that it would be a prudent move to add new ones. And this is just toooooooooooooooooo easy of a boon to justify ignoring, unless SE is really just that concerned with preserving some artistic vision at the expense of overall fan enjoyment.

Quote:
And now I want ice cream.


Ben & Jerry's has a new gingersnap icecream that's pretty good. Still miss my oatmeal cookie chunk though :c

Quote:
There's a difference between constructive criticism and being a ****. Saying, "here are some reason why you should be able to be male/female [whatever] ...etc..." is constructive. Whereas, "it's asinine they didn't do this" is not. In fact, there nothing comes out of that second statement.

Just another person that doesn't understand the subtleties of civilized discussion.

The argument "people want it" is pretty weak. Can't always get what you want. So far, SE is pretty good at making compelling storylines. Maybe people should just leave them to their business.


Well I'll be sure to send an apology to SE. I thought I was making a simple observation and a relatively civil one at that considering that I was talking about a company's decision and not an individual's inherent traits, but I guess the word asinine has no place in a civil universe, and there's no situation where it's called for. We should strike it from the dictionary, along with all other words that speak less than favorably of something.

But as for you, you have invited my ************ Prepare to be **********

Are you ******* retarded?

The argument "people want it" is pretty much the only argument relevant to a business. It's inextricable from the concept of supply and DEMAND. If people DON'T want it, they won't give you money for it, and your business won't last.

Seriously, this "what the customers want doesn't matter much" argument needs to stop. It's truly the mark of a desperate fanboy. If you want to argue my position from some other vantage, by all means, I will be happy to point out the flaw in your thinking as I see it. But if you're going to use that tripe, then **** civility and **** you.

Quote:
I understand that people want to make the characters they want, but it seems silly to basically demand that SE add these genders.

You aren't allowed to make a goblin character. What if people really wanted that? Every game has limitations to character creation.


I don't think anyone is really demanding these genders because most people accept that making demands on a forum is pretty futile, but people will vote with their dollars, and I for one want people to vote "yes" to FFXIV because more money for SE means that they can make a better game, even for the people that don't care about these genders. Just having the extra subscription money will make the game better for everyone. Now don't get me wrong-- there's an extent to which adding new races stops being a positive investment return, but FFXIV isn't anywhere near that point yet. Add some dragon people and some demon people and on those alone you'll see substantial returns. It's a bad thing to cut corners on. It's the face of the game and a hugely pervasive element throughout.

There are people who really want a goblin character, and I hope they get one. But they probably won't, and most are willing to accept it because Goblins are enemies (and every game needs cool, nonplayable enemies), and also because technically speaking, it's hard to remodel armor for Goblin bodies.

Quote:
If they announced male mithras and female galka tons of people would stop what they were doing pick up a spatula walk outside and find the nearest sh*t and flip it.


I ******* love this guy.

Also, my red arrow is on hiatus (I'm honestly not even sure the thing works anymore), so know that at the very least your karma is Kachi-free.
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#50 Oct 08 2009 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Even when I first played the game when it first came out it was an issue. The fact that SE still fails to address this just shows that SE doesn't really care about us.


They don't care about you, they care about your MONEY. Does Square Enix come bring you soup when you're sick? Are you the type of person who switches insurance companies after you see a commercial about how one company cares more than another? Again, you're taking this as a personal slight to you, which it is not. It might be lazy of them, it might be stupid of them, it might even be irresponsible of them (somehow), but it's not a personal attack against their players. This whole act like it's SE trying to give players the rub has got to stop. You don't have to be happy about it, but let's try to keep some perspective on the situation.

Indulge me and allow me to go with another analogy here. Let's say you want to pick up some new duds for a night on the town. You head on over to The GAP and start trying on outfit after outfit. You find a sweater that fits you like a glove, and the pattern is to die for. Except for one little problem - it has yellow stripes instead of red, and you REALLY wanted red stripes. So maybe you go find the guy with the headset on, and you ask him, "Do you have this sweater with red stripes?", and he says to you, "No, I'm sorry, they don't make it with red stripes." Do you then proceed to start ranting against The GAP, telling them they have no clue what they're doing, that their business model is flawed, that they don't care about their customers? Well, from the sounds of it, some of you might, but most normal people don't. They put the yellow-striped sweater back, think, **********, that's a bummer, it would have been killer in red" and move on with their lives. Or maybe they even say, "You know, it's still pretty nice with yellow stripes, I'll buy it anyways" and along they go on their merry way with their fabulous yellow-striped sweater.

So now this video game company is making a game that doesn't have the right color stripes for you, and you're demanding that they give you what you want, insisting that you know best and they are clueless. All they can really do is put together the game the way they think is best and hope it appeals to enough people to be profitable. They have hedged their bets that they can cut cost here and it will not hinder their sales enough to have made it the wrong bet, and I am guessing they think they have done the research to back up this decision. Personally, I think they're right, as I would wager a month's subscription that every person who has posted on this board will still buy the game. I don't care about the issue, so I will be buying it regardless, but I think even those who complain will still cowboy up the cash.

I don't know how it will play out to be honest, maybe everyone walks in the store and decides they'd love the sweater if only it had red stripes, but it doesn't so they leave. Or maybe enough people never wanted red stripes in the first place, or are plenty happy with yellow stripes as an alternative, and it makes no difference in the end.



Edited, Oct 8th 2009 8:47am by Valhallodin
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Formerly Valhallodin of HouseAtreides on Caitsith
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#51 Oct 08 2009 at 4:50 AM Rating: Good
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2,084 posts
Quote:
This whole act like it's SE trying to give players the rub has got to stop. You don't have to be happy about it, but let's try to keep some perspective on the situation.


But SE killed my family and burned my village.

Also /thread.

Edited, Oct 8th 2009 5:53am by Kirbster
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