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Gil distribution: FFXI vs FFXIVFollow

#1 Oct 09 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't have to tell most people how skewed the gil distribution system is in FFXI. Between those pick-up groups of "Your orb, your drop" to the botting of all the HNM's by greedy people. Which leads me to my question. If items are distributed via a fair process such as Einherjar points or though "instances", this should help keep the gil balanced more equally, right?

So what would be your preferences, discuss.

Edited, Oct 9th 2009 3:20pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#2 Oct 09 2009 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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gil to drop from all mobs like every other FF up to FFXI


and points aka assualt/einherjar
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#3 Oct 09 2009 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I did like the risk factor in BCNM's, but this time I hope that we'll be able to do them at shorter intervals. I actually found the drop rate of items to be decent enough (unlike with some items in that game :D), just that it took a bit long to gather the required seals.

I liked ENM's as well for making gil. SE could improve that feature further as well, while keeping it fresh for old and new players. Instead of being able to do it every 5 days make the wait time like once a day or something for example.

More 'fair' events would probably be good for a change as well. Guildleves are already a bit like assaults, so that system could be implemented in the game as well. Either save the 'points' to buy equipment you can sell for cash, or use them for something else.

I think SE got really good at this at the later life of XI. I think if any of the features implemented in XI made their way into XIV we won't have anything to worry about in that regard. The biggest difference might be in how much of your playtime you use to make money instead of doing something else like leveling I guess.
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#4 Oct 09 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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gil to drop from all mobs like every other FF up to FFXI

That would lead to massive inflation.

I never really had a problem with the way gil was earned in FFXI. For most people it was pretty much a linear return on the time you invested into it. Compared to the real world, it was positively utopian.

I guess adding systems from the get-go like Assault, where points are earned with each run, would be nice. But throwing some randomness into the mix is important. After 20 runs of Nyzul or whatever it must have been nice to know you were making steady progress toward a goal, but on the other hand it's a little depressing to start on your first run and know you're guaranteed to be months away from seeing any return.

A points system combined with random Dynamis-style drops could be interesting.
#5 Oct 09 2009 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Borkachev wrote:
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gil to drop from all mobs like every other FF up to FFXI

That would lead to massive inflation.



I can definitely see how easy it can be to cause inflation. However, our FFXI inflation was caused by RMT's. The fishing exploits, NM botting(Castle Oz/SSG), and crafting massive amounts of shihei didn't help either. Once SE was able to tone down the RMT, the inflation dropped off and recovered.

FoV was a well thought out system that allowed people to farm gil/seals, obtain armor/weapons, and other material items for crafting.

Back to the RMT problem for a moment, but having an unbalanced gil distribution system actually benefits them. Think about it for a moment. If you really want/need a K club, you're more prone to buy gil to pay for it. But what if you could easily live off doing Guildeves and even have a chance to earn a K club yourself. Those HNM LS's that sell drops for millions only encourage gil buying which only increases the demand for more RMT and inflation. Your average player farms enough to pay their expenses and save up for that uber +1 piece. A RMT works in shifts and never stops farming. Of course inflation is going to happen because more gil is brought in even if items are sold to npc's.
#6 Oct 09 2009 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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i'm no economist, but even tough i tried to figure things out, every time it comes to the same conclusion : players will ***** it.

at least i hope npc buyable items prices won't be as ridiculous as in ff11, and the gap between npc buy/sell prices not so big.
i think it would helps the economy less to remove gils than to remove items by giving them a certain value.
would helps prices to be kept between npc buy and sell, but this only works for items that npc sell.
#7 Oct 09 2009 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't have to tell most people how skewed the gil distribution system is in FFXI. Between those pick-up groups of "Your orb, your drop" to the botting of all the HNM's by greedy people. Which leads me to my question. If items are distributed via a fair process such as Einherjar points or though "instances", this should help keep the gil balanced more equally, right?

Using "points" would definitely make the gil distribution to be more fair, but at the same time, this leads to an issue where multiple copies of an item can be obtained by a large number of people.

For example: need 100,000 Assault Points to get Defending Ring or Riddil (no longer from HNM). So people spam Assaults to get AP. After a while, suddenly 100 people got 100,000 AP in space of a week from one another. The world will see a jump from 0 Defending Ring to 100 of them, and as time goes, more and more Defending Ring will come to play that so many people have it.

I like the idea of using points, but I do wonder whether there's an alternative way to make rare gear still rare enough. As much as I hate relying on random drops, it does bring excitement when you "get lucky" (or **** frustration when you aren't lol).

Probably, I think I would see a system where say great items are available from points system so it's accessible to everyone, but the greatest items are still drops (or quest-like method such as Salvage gear that includes drops too) so that it doesn't become way too common.
#8 Oct 09 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can definitely see how easy it can be to cause inflation. However, our FFXI inflation was caused by RMT's. The fishing exploits, NM botting(Castle Oz/SSG), and crafting massive amounts of shihei didn't help either. Once SE was able to tone down the RMT, the inflation dropped off and recovered.

RMT only causes inflation when they're exploiting a mechanic or bug that creates gil. Of the list you give, only the fishing exploits led to inflation: NM hunting and crafting only move money around. Increasing the number of goods and services in an economy while retaining a fixed amount of currency actually causes deflation.

Of course, if you can monopolize a certain item like an NM drop, as the RMT attempted to do, you can jack up the price on that specific item. That's not inflation, but I do think it's a problem that the developers should try to combat.

I only remember this hazily now, but as I recall you're right: when FFXI's economy suddenly deflated in the first part of 2006, it was after they took the first major steps at fighting RMT. But I think it had more to do with the hundreds of billions of gil that were permanently deleted than the banning of the accounts themselves.
#9 Oct 09 2009 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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But I think it had more to do with the hundreds of billions of gil that were permanently deleted than the banning of the accounts themselves.

The gil deletion is the direct reason (less gil around = low inflation), but the banning is the indirect reason (less RMT account to create extra gil around). So they both work hand-in-hand together.
#10 Oct 09 2009 at 3:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Vaagan wrote:

Using "points" would definitely make the gil distribution to be more fair, but at the same time, this leads to an issue where multiple copies of an item can be obtained by a large number of people.

Probably, I think I would see a system where say great items are available from points system so it's accessible to everyone, but the greatest items are still drops (or quest-like method such as Salvage gear that includes drops too) so that it doesn't become way too common.


Oh, I agree that the rewards should be split depending on their quality. Yet, we need to push hard during the Beta to make sure SE doesn't get stupid again and introduce HNM's that pop on 24-72 timers. Anything that can be exploited due to hacks needs to be removed so balance is preserved. Faf, Cerb, Tiamat, Behe, Turtle, and the list goes on. Instead I summit implementing a ZNM-ish system using the Guildeves to "instance" these more rare items like potential Defending rings and Ridills.

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RMT only causes inflation when they're exploiting a mechanic or bug that creates gil. Of the list you give, only the fishing exploits led to inflation: NM hunting and crafting only move money around. Increasing the number of goods and services in an economy while retaining a fixed amount of currency actually causes deflation.

Of course, if you can monopolize a certain item like an NM drop, as the RMT attempted to do, you can jack up the price on that specific item. That's not inflation, but I do think it's a problem that the developers should try to combat.


So how would you classify RMT's mass producing Remedies and selling them to vendors? An exploit? I call it was a niche, not a glitch. I see what you mean about NM's though. I need to remember inflation happens when too much gil is brought into the system. I still think RMT's botting those NM's in castle Oz and SSG helped cause a little inflation in a sense. Because players would often purchase gil in large sums to afford these items means RMT would have to farm more which in turn generated more gil. RMT were well know to exploit ways to earn gil from NPC's and fishing. So in a sense, gil buying caused inflation too. As more gil was dumped into the system, the value of gil dropped and items rose in price.

Let me know if I missed something. I just want to make sure we avoid these problems in FFXIV so speak up everyone.

Edited, Oct 9th 2009 6:24pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#11 Oct 09 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh, I agree that the rewards should be split depending on their quality. Yet, we need to push hard during the Beta to make sure SE doesn't get stupid again and introduce HNM's that pop on 24-72 timers.

This brings in another question. When we do have FFXIV beta, would the players actually have any say at all about how the game will be like? My impression is that they'd be more likely just using the testers for testing on how things go with a lot of players playing rather than seeking ideas of what to do with the game.

Personally, I don't mind HNM pop, but the problem is that nowadays in 2009 (and starting a few years back) these HNMs had become easier and easier fight. I'm not sure when they were first introduced, but I guess these HNMs were much harder before and they were like the badass kings. If 24-72 pop is to be kept, I'd really like to see something more like PW or AV where they are really kings and not something that can eventually be low-manned. 24-72 pop should be more like "oh **** they pop and gonna kill us" like AV rather than "let's stand around and wait and kill this jerk when it pops" like current HNMs in my opinion.

I like the ZNM idea too, but I hope it'd be for smaller group. It's quite crazy to need to wait for quite some time and work your way to PW, and then have to compete with say 50 other players in your LS for the drop.
#12 Oct 09 2009 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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Instances are fun and helpful and all but I still want things to occur in the "living/active" world.

I believe they should randomize the major NMs some to add a bit of thrill and unpredictability to the world. Have the lesser NMs appear more often though. Make them plentiful but spread out the drop table with the surrounding environment.

For example, a new Leaping Lizzy (lesser NM): Local lizards have a 5 minute respawn and around a 1/100 chance of dropping Leaping Boots, while Leaping Lizzy will be tougher and on a 15 minute or so respawn and around a 1/50 chance of dropping Leaping Boots. And no, this won't just be people across the world running to this one part of the world for this one item. Spread out equip drops through areas and multiple mobs. Have specie/location drop tables.

Fafnir (major NM): This drops Ridill which is a major high level item. This would have a random spawn time as well as a random assortment of spawn areas. It's loot would definitely not be shared with anything else. So one day you may spot it in it's lair and call your friends to help kill it. Then you may spot it 2 days later wandering the outlying lands. After its death it may appear 30 minutes later in the adjacent area. I'm not sure about the drop rate here, give a 1/10 chance maybe? Perhaps even drop more than 1?
So now you have 2 options: play normally with the fair off-chance you may happen to run into this super rare monster, or aimlessly wander around the huge area it may spawn in for days and days "camping" it. (People would probably still do this considering how hardcore some people get with NMs x_X)

For me, the ideal system would be one where you unknowingly may happen across a NM in your adventuring (I like unknown and randomness being a factor). Along with a big enough and spread out loot table, the "need" to camp a single monster in a single spot should be greatly minimized.
#13 Oct 09 2009 at 6:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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For example: need 100,000 Assault Points to get Defending Ring or Riddil (no longer from HNM). So people spam Assaults to get AP. After a while, suddenly 100 people got 100,000 AP in space of a week from one another. The world will see a jump from 0 Defending Ring to 100 of them, and as time goes, more and more Defending Ring will come to play that so many people have it.


I keep reading things like this and I am just a little confused. So let's say they use this type of system, and eventually more and more people are earning the "uber" gear. That is a good thing, right? Once everyone starts to accumulate that gear then wouldn't it make sense for SE to release new gear in updates to keep us chasing the preverbial carrot?

I mean think about if more and more people are "earning" the McRidill, then SE does a update/release with new mobs and new gear, increasing the bar and making people chase the new gear. Isn't that kind of the point? I mean no MMO would be fun if you just had a set equipment list and everyone strived for that equipment. that is what frustrated me to no end with FFXI, they made the uber gear almost un-obtainable for us common players and it was huge timesinks. So they released new stuff but it was never up to par with the already released gear.

I think the point being is that SE needs to make some of this gear more accessible through skill and activities rather than timesinks. Then when the level of people who are acquiring the items reaches a certain point then release the new carrot for us to chase.

I was a career war in FFXI so I can speak in War terms. Rather than having everything linear make the new gear release almost horizontal. For instance, as badass as swordchucks (Ridill and Joytoy) are and everyone wanted to acheive it. once you start seeing that become mroe common release a new Gaxe that will slightly outperform or match the swordchucks which allows for same performance but diffferent playstyles.

Makes sense to me anyway? I keeps the player base paying and playing to achieve new gear AND it allows for the player base to achieve theirs short term goals and not get burned out.
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#14 Oct 09 2009 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I think it'd be interesting to see a system where the amount of gil in circulation depends entirely on how many players there are (i.e., no more than a million gil per player on the entire server). Unfortunately, I think it would be problematic to implement in such a way that would prevent players from just making new characters to earn money.
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#15 Oct 09 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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Borkachev wrote:
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gil to drop from all mobs like every other FF up to FFXI

That would lead to massive inflation.


This really would be a pretty big **** contributor to inflation, unless there were a **** of a lot of gilsinks everywhere. (Which there very may well be.)



As far as we know, Leves may be the primary source of gaining gil for those who do not harvest or craft, and they restrict the number of Leves one person can do per real life day, which is a good limiting factor to prevent inflation.
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#16 Oct 09 2009 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
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This really would be a pretty big **** contributor to inflation, unless there were a **** of a lot of gilsinks everywhere. (Which there very may well be.)

Yeah. But even then, it might be impossible to avoid devaluing the currency if it basically falls from the sky. Imagine if all players had to do was touch a button and 1,000 gil would appear in their account, and they could do this as fast and as often as they liked. Even if you had gil sinks that removed the money as fast as it appeared, the currency would be worthless because it's too easy to obtain.

Gil dropping from monsters wouldn't be quite as bad as that, but it would end up closer to something like Earth Crystals. Those were usually consumed within a few hours of being created, but they were extremely cheap because they showed up everywhere during the normal course of every player's day.

In a situation like that, the playerbase would probably have to come up with an alternate currency. We'd end up with a barter economy... not a good idea.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
So how would you classify RMT's mass producing Remedies and selling them to vendors? An exploit? I call it was a niche, not a glitch.

I meant exploit in the sense of exploiting resources, not a cheat. Selling items to vendors is a valid way to do business.
#17 Oct 09 2009 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I keep reading things like this and I am just a little confused. So let's say they use this type of system, and eventually more and more people are earning the "uber" gear. That is a good thing, right?

For me personally, I'd say it depends. If uber gear becomes common, then challenge factor becomes lower on existing content and many of the players (whom already own the uber gear) would have nothing else to do. If S-E can release new content quick enough, then it's not an issue. But if S-E takes their time to release new content, people can easily get bored with nothing to strive for.

So for me, there should be a balance between the two where uber gear doesn't lose its value too quickly but accessible enough to everyone.
#18 Oct 09 2009 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
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It's good if there are a few pieces that are both really good and really challenging to get, but ultimately you want people playing the game because it's fun, not just because it takes them a lot of time to get gear.
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#19 Oct 09 2009 at 10:32 PM Rating: Good
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gil to drop from all mobs like every other FF up to FFXI

That would lead to massive inflation.
Only if there weren't appropriate gil syncs like sayyyy durability/repairs?
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Yeah. But even then, it might be impossible to avoid devaluing the currency if it basically falls from the sky. Imagine if all players had to do was touch a button and 1,000 gil would appear in their account, and they could do this as fast and as often as they liked. Even if you had gil sinks that removed the money as fast as it appeared, the currency would be worthless because it's too easy to obtain.
Logically, if the money from your magic button disappeared as soon as it appeared via sinks it make absolutely no difference in the game economy as your net gain would be zero. You really didn't think that through did you? >_>

Beastmen in FFXI drop money and it didn't break the economy. Just replace the unnecessary, random, space wasting, junk drops from other mobs with gil and save the middle man.
Vaagan wrote:
For example: need 100,000 Assault Points to get Defending Ring or Riddil (no longer from HNM). So people spam Assaults to get AP. After a while, suddenly 100 people got 100,000 AP in space of a week from one another. The world will see a jump from 0 Defending Ring to 100 of them, and as time goes, more and more Defending Ring will come to play that so many people have it.
add? If 100 people worked long and hard for those rings they deserve them. Nothing is more frustrating than knowing you may never get X drop because of luck (or ******* shells) instead of it being based on your skill and dedication. If you want them rarer increase the number of points ness. to obtain and decrease the amount of points earnable in X time frame, just like increasing time between windows and decreasing drop rate makes random drop items rarer.
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#20 Oct 09 2009 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent
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If 100 people worked long and hard for those rings they deserve them. Nothing is more frustrating than knowing you may never get X drop because of luck (or ******* shells) instead of it being based on your skill and dedication. If you want them rarer increase the number of points ness. to obtain and decrease the amount of points earnable in X time frame, just like increasing time between windows and decreasing drop rate makes random drop items rarer.

What I meant with my example is that I prefer a system like say Salvage (difficult event, need multiple drops, need money) to show "skill and dedication" compared to Assault Points (where one can spam same easy Assault to gain points). To me, point system deals with mainly dedication than skill (though skill is involved too obviously). So I'd prefer to keep the best gear out of points system while giving points system for say "2nd best" gear instead.
#21 Oct 09 2009 at 11:56 PM Rating: Good
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Ugh, no thanks. That kind of rare+leet gear just promotes a bunch of obsessive gearmongering funneled through drama.
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#22 Oct 10 2009 at 12:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Which is why for me personally, I prefer more low-man events rather than full-alliance events. The less people in your group, the less chance for drama to occur.
#23 Oct 10 2009 at 12:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm probably crazy, but I'd kind of like a Diablo II approach to cash this time around. Overall, gold was relatively unimportant in that game, but it did have its purpose in repairing your gear at NPCs, buying potions, or choosing to gamble for the chance at rare items.

On the other hand, in place of gold being the meaningful currency, it became certain items. The Stone of Jordan was a popular one, and things could wind up having a value of like 4 SoJs or whatever the playerbase had a tendency to deem appropriate for the item's usefulness. This often led to a bartering unseen in FFXI where, to a person desperate for something, an item worth 5 SoJs might actually get you something, or multiple somethings worth more than that. People enterprising and patient enough could often turn very little into a treasure trove of loot.

Of course, some will say a simple currency like gil makes life easier, but everyone feels everything is worth different amounts and too often the first to list something on the AH sets the standard (and it's usually pretty high out of greed). Sometimes the market will crash as people realize something's not that rare, but other times it only gets worse as people realize it is. Gil, on its own, does relatively little regardless of importance. Someone going a more trade-centric route could at least focus on items they can use directly while moving up the chain.

Regardless of whatever route is taken by SE, exploits will need to be stomped hard and fast. Crafting will most definitely need to be better in XIV, too. The moment some people start getting too rich is the moment those not as lucky, for whatever reason, start to suffer. If the census is suggesting your average player is making 150k a week, something that costs over a 100 million gil is a no-no. That's almost 667 weeks of play for that person if they focuses solely on that task. More literal game-controlled currency like Tabs/IN/CP/Ampoules/AP/etc. also cuts down on the strain as there is no market fluctuation to worry about. Toss in fair, random chances to shorten that journey and you'll probably wind up with happier people. I'm sure Dynamis would be a far more interesting event if you'd see a Stage 4 weapon drop for your LS every few months. Just little things in that vein.

Quote:
What I meant with my example is that I prefer a system like say Salvage (difficult event, need multiple drops, need money) to show "skill and dedication" compared to Assault Points (where one can spam same easy Assault to gain points). To me, point system deals with mainly dedication than skill (though skill is involved too obviously). So I'd prefer to keep the best gear out of points system while giving points system for say "2nd best" gear instead.


Sounds more like your problem was the easier assaults gave too many points. If the skilled players could get enough points for whatever in 10 runs while the lesser skilled had to do like 25-30, would that be more to your liking? You could get 2-3 good items to their 1 in that span, but exclusivity or entitlement isn't exactly something I want to see again if it can be avoided. It's a definite poison that made XI less enjoyable for many as some went out of their way to deliberately **** over others just to prolong that snowflake status as long as possible while belittling those who aren't like them.

Then again, my take on Salvage has always been that people should walk away with one complete item after 3 weeks of running 2-3 times a week. Completing a set would translate to over 3 months of work, more than enough time for SE to create that next carrot to dangle if the player wasn't then interested in working on another set. As is, you've had some people go over a year without getting the Salvage drop they need. Though, this is more a variation of the Timesink != Challenge debate.

Edited, Oct 10th 2009 4:57am by Seriha
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#24 Oct 10 2009 at 1:31 AM Rating: Decent
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You could get 2-3 good items to their 1 in that span, but exclusivity or entitlement isn't exactly something I want to see again if it can be avoided.

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but why is Salvage gear being considered as exclusivity or entitlement as if it's not available for everyone?

I picked Salvage as an example because I feel that Salvage offers:
1. Challenge. In a sense that you start naked, cell distribution strategy, doing different zones with different plan and not just spamming one same thing over and over again.
2. Long enough lifespan. Say your group consisted of 8 people, it's not ridiculously large, but not too small where everyone can get everything out of Salvage too quick.
3. Not spammable. To do Salvage, needs permit that costs AP. Preventing people to just spam Salvage and ignoring other game content.
4. Not needing too many people. This means that you don't have to be in an end-game LS that consists of 50 hardcore players to be able to do Salvage.
5. Monetary cost. Not to the point where it's relic-like price, but high enough to make the whole set "expensive" without being over the top.
6. Instanced. That way there's no need to compete with other group.

To me, they sound reasonable enough to hold the top tier gear. It requires skill of the group, it costs money to make the whole set, it has good lifespan, it prevents other game content to be pointless, and you don't have to compete against botters.

But again, that's probably just me. I'm not saying that it has to be exactly like Salvage, but a system where it is like Salvage in a sense that it provides numerous challenges without being too ridiculous like dynamis relic.
#25 Oct 10 2009 at 1:34 AM Rating: Decent
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People who have the gil, worked for it. (Ok, gil buyers aside.)

I'm always amazed at the people who complain that gil is hard to get in this game. It really isn't, though you do have to put some work into it. One of the things I most loved about FFXI was its economy.

In WoW gold was pretty easy to come by. In Aion its absurdly easy to get. Both games solved the inflation issue by having lots and lots of money sinks. I'd rather see the economy run more like FFXI than either WoW or Aion.
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#26 Oct 10 2009 at 2:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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People who have the gil, worked for it. (Ok, gil buyers aside.)

I'm always amazed at the people who complain that gil is hard to get in this game. It really isn't, though you do have to put some work into it. One of the things I most loved about FFXI was its economy.

In WoW gold was pretty easy to come by. In Aion its absurdly easy to get. Both games solved the inflation issue by having lots and lots of money sinks. I'd rather see the economy run more like FFXI than either WoW or Aion.


I could not disagree more. I was very fortunate to have made gil before the economy went sour and had some good gil set aside and had some very nice gear. Remember when teh SH was 7-9 mil. Well I had to leave the game and sold everything and just sat on the gil and when I came back suddenly I was rich thanks to SE's changes.

But anytime you have to spend 50%-70% of your game time earning gil to pay for the rest of play time that is way out of control. Making gil isn't fun, playing the game is. But then again I have a lot of RL duties that limit playtime (I currently don't play FFXI for that reason).

I think someone earlier said it best about the economy, to have an item so expensive that your "average" player will never acheive it is counter productive in a game. Granted by may be how it is in the real world but I don't play a game to reproduce the real world.

I am probably going to start playing again when FFXIV comes out just because of the focus for solo play or people with less time ( I will be lucky to dediacte 10 hours a week). I am assuming they will get a lot of us back based on that thought process. But if I come back and I can't afford anything or nice gear isn't available to me because I can't log in for a full work week of play time (40 plus hours a week) then I will walk away just as I did with FFXI.

Personally I think that is what has made WOW a huge success, someone can make a toon and have it equipped pretty **** good in a relatively short peroid of time and actually enjoy playing the game. In the end, tailoring to the average player rather than the elitest will net better for this game.
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#27 Oct 10 2009 at 3:51 AM Rating: Decent
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^I have to say, I agree with you there. Unfortunatly, I was playing when prices were just going majorly up and then suddenly dropping to almost nothing. I found it quite hard to make money on the game. The most I ever had was like 20k (i wasn't a very high lvl). My mate wasn't very wealthy either, he was a lvl 75 Samurai/Thief, when I was playing, he had like 10k on him. He was trying so hard to make money on the game, but he wasn't having much luck.

I've tried selling crystals, Beehive Chips and even tried gardening. So did my mate....

Anyway I quit FFXI as I was quite young, it was my first MMO and didn't really understand it. (I was like 13 at the time, I found that everybody else was atleast 30 on there).

I used to say that WoW was really crap even tho I hadn't played it before, so I tried it last October for like a month. I made 20 gold on the second day by skinning and mining. It was way to easy. I had bought all my equipment up to like lvl 50 and I was like lvl 10. I decided to quit cuz it was to repetitive and the money makin was just so easy.

I'm not hoping that the economy in FFXIV isn't like WoW or FFXI. I would like it to be in between, I don't want to be on there finding out that I can make like 1 mil from the noobiest monster and I don't want to find out that I will be struggling to get lvl 10 armor. It just needs to be balanced out. I know SE can't really do much about this, it was the bloody gil sellers that screwed FFXI over and then they were banned and I wasn't able to make money at all.
#28 Oct 10 2009 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
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5. Monetary cost. Not to the point where it's relic-like price, but high enough to make the whole set "expensive" without being over the top.


Actually, this is the biggest flaw with Salvage, I'd say. I'd done a lot of running prior to the SSR adjustment and I never saw the Macha's pants drop. Additionally, the guy after Ares' legs never saw theirs, either. The gil expense for crap like coins was fine, but Orichalcum and Imperial Wootz ingots was far, far, far out of line. This also extends to Mythics where the system would've been **** fine were it not for the Alexandrites.

I don't agree money came easily, really. **** luck in BCs. I chose a craft SE decided to neuter multiple times over my career. The times I could stomach camping a money HNM another shell would claim. My LS usually did Bahamut 2 runs while I was asleep (and **** losing sleep for a game). For the moment, I can't even agree Aion rains money when the cash I've accumulated between levels often gets sucked up by 80% in skill book costs, and then I somehow have to afford overpriced gear because the economy's still unstable. No, I'd rather not have to have "farming days" where fun rarely goes in hand-in-hand.
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#29 Oct 10 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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Logically, if the money from your magic button disappeared as soon as it appeared via sinks it make absolutely no difference in the game economy as your net gain would be zero. You really didn't think that through did you? >_>

Oy. Again, the earth crystal example: these were consumed about as fast as they were produced, but that didn't mean they couldn't be exchanged between players a couple times first. What mattered was how many were in the system at once.

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Beastmen in FFXI drop money and it didn't break the economy. Just replace the unnecessary, random, space wasting, junk drops from other mobs with gil and save the middle man.

That's true, beastmen didn't break the economy, but it was because they dropped minuscule amounts of gil. Less than you would ever need to earn a living.

You could replace all the junk item drops with gil drops, but you wouldn't be any further ahead. Those items were worthless for a reason: they were too common and too easily obtained. The market would demand that any amount of gil dropped in their place would be equally worthless, and if the devs didn't choose an appropriately low amount from the start, the prices of items would quickly raise to compensate. So now you're getting junk gil instead of junk items, which saves you a trip to the auction house (cutting out yet another inter-player interaction -- why do people want to do that?) at the cost of steady inflation.

Seriha wrote:
Crafting will most definitely need to be better in XIV, too. The moment some people start getting too rich is the moment those not as lucky, for whatever reason, start to suffer. If the census is suggesting your average player is making 150k a week, something that costs over a 100 million gil is a no-no. That's almost 667 weeks of play for that person if they focuses solely on that task.

But what defines "too rich"? Elite items are essential to the game. The possibility of getting rich is essential. No one will invest their game career into a craft job if the best rewards they can hope for are to make 30% more than the average player. And they won't do it if they can get rich but there's nothing to spend their money on once they get there. If you're worried about crafting, that's just about the fastest way to ruin it.

The game content should never be tailored entirely to the average player. Most of it should, sure, but we need something more to aspire to. 100 million gil in a 150k/week economy sounds bad, but how does the graph actually break down? Are there a reasonable number of outliers making 5 million/week? Then 100 million might not be so ridiculous. Players need something to aspire to.
#30 Oct 10 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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Oy. Again, the earth crystal example: these were consumed about as fast as they were produced, but that didn't mean they couldn't be exchanged between players a couple times first. What mattered was how many were in the system at once.
They were an ingredient, as such they're not "consumed" as much as they are converted.
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You could replace all the junk item drops with gil drops, but you wouldn't be any further ahead. Those items were worthless for a reason: they were too common and too easily obtained. The market would demand that any amount of gil dropped in their place would be equally worthless, and if the devs didn't choose an appropriately low amount from the start, the prices of items would quickly raise to compensate. So now you're getting junk gil instead of junk items, which saves you a trip to the auction house (cutting out yet another inter-player interaction -- why do people want to do that?) at the cost of steady inflation.
People don't AH worthless drops, they NPC them. You're gaining the same "inflation" (aka, none at all as long as there are appropriate sinks) as if each "earth crystal" instead directly dropped 15 gil (or w/e it was), w/o all the inventory waste, running around, system abuse, general stupidity, excess coding, etc.
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#31 Oct 10 2009 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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This thread really has taken off. I really like to see mobs drop more gil for normal kills, less emphasis on selling crappy drops to npcs. The main issue that must be addressed is income vs gil sinks. It was late in FFXI's life cycle did SE finally figure it out. I'm hoping the durables system helps to keep crafters employed this time around. In FFXI, I know far too many lv90-100 crafters myself included, that rarely use their crafting skill anymore unless someone asks for you to make an item. Blacksmith, cloth, and Leather crafts in FFXIV mean repairs for heavy armor, cloth for mage gear, and Tannery for light armor such for classes like Archer. I'm interested in what Alchemy would be used for in FFXIV now that it's announced as a trade/craft.
#32 Oct 10 2009 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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BoP items = Less reused items = Better Economy!

Equipment that is BoP will be sold to NPC when no longer useful, taking it out of the game entirely, as opposed to the same piece of gear surviving in circulation for 7 years, and everything made before and after it.

Edited, Oct 10th 2009 5:10pm by KaneIsthara
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#33 Oct 10 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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But what defines "too rich"? Elite items are essential to the game. The possibility of getting rich is essential. No one will invest their game career into a craft job if the best rewards they can hope for are to make 30% more than the average player. And they won't do it if they can get rich but there's nothing to spend their money on once they get there. If you're worried about crafting, that's just about the fastest way to ruin it.

The game content should never be tailored entirely to the average player. Most of it should, sure, but we need something more to aspire to. 100 million gil in a 150k/week economy sounds bad, but how does the graph actually break down? Are there a reasonable number of outliers making 5 million/week? Then 100 million might not be so ridiculous. Players need something to aspire to.


I have no problems with elite items as long as the method of acquiring is more on par with testing your group's ability as opposed to how fat your wallet is or even how much the random number generator decides to smile upon you throughout your play span. Like I implied earlier, the Mythics would've been perfect were it not for the 50k, then subsequent 30k Alexandrite price tag. There was essentially an artificial delay on acquiring multiples through cooldown timers for Einherjar and Assaults, too. Just going through the legwork of collecting titles, redoing assaults, and going through ZNMs was enough of an arduous task without introducing an Economic PvP if you will.

That said, general gear progression in endgame can follow an evolutionary scale. Let's just use the Haubergeon, for example. In XI it can get crafted up to a Hauberk, and then the Adaman Hauberk if you also happen upon the abjuration. They could repeat this with crafts, even having ingredients come from HNMs or whatever, or the equipment itself could be the catalyst for a Leve that gets you to the next tier. Losing shouldn't ***** you out of your item, but the higher up you go, the harder you should expect the content to become. Additional bonuses can be sprinkled along the way to give others the incentive to help. Which reminds me, HNMs shouldn't drop 1 or 2 items if you're expecting 18 people to kill them.

Overall, gil has led to a lot of problems with XI. RMT and the hyperinflation is an obvious one, but you'll get more subtle muckings like shells that continue to camp mobs they technically don't need loot from to either merc off drops or literally destroy them just to prevent others from acquiring the same status. Hopefully this won't be too much of an issue with a greater lean on instancing, but I can still see people trying to be lazy and weasel their way toward an item one way or another.

As for crafting and a lesser dependency on cash, that can go a lot of ways. People may simply resort to a "you bring me the mats, I'll make it for you so I can get skill ups" approach. The crafter may gather the mats themselves and attempt to trade them off for things they might need. People may just say, ********** everyone else!" and be completely self-sufficient with just a lot of little work. Regardless, I just feel a heavy reliance on a single currency too often cheapens someone's efforts if an update swings the wrong way or job fads kick your wares to the curb. "Too rich" may be hard to define without much game context, but I'll comfortably say that if you can throw money at everything to get everything you want without worry, then you're certainly in that category. Not everyone is as lucky, or in some cases, malicious.
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#34 Oct 10 2009 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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The gil expense for crap like coins was fine, but Orichalcum and Imperial Wootz ingots was far, far, far out of line. This also extends to Mythics where the system would've been **** fine were it not for the Alexandrites.

I'm not sure how the two are comparable. 30k Alexandrite at 3k/each already hits 90M mark. Full Salvage set would only cost about 20-25M. I agree that Dynamis relic and Mythic stuff are too expensive, but I really can't see Salvage set being in the same category of too expensive. 20-25M can be even lower if you have lots of KS and spam RR for your own O.ingot, making the only noticable cost as Wootz.

After all, if getting the best gear is easily affordable, what's the use of money other than for buying consumables? To me, if it's for the best gear and not ridiculous amount like relic/mythic, I'd definitely be willing to work for it.
#35 Oct 10 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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The point is SE already put you through the wringer just to get the base drops. The added gil expense on top of all the food/meds/tools you spent along the way is just another slap in the face. Even as sets, mis-matched alternatives can come close in performance in a lot of case. Though, this opens the alternative perspective where I'd be okay with the price tags if they were godly items that truly outshined **** that's been around since RotZ.
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#36 Oct 10 2009 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd like re-emphasize that my idea is simply taking the concept of challenge that Salvage can provide (including challenging instances, not spammable, not being super expensive but expensive enough, etc), and not exactly being like Salvage itself (same drop rate, same cost, same limitation, etc). I hope that makes it a bit clearer.
#37 Oct 10 2009 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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The bottom line is that in general, getting a lot of gil isn't fun. However you go about doing it, it's extremely tedious. Frankly, I would rather have gear be more common than be inaccessible, and if it's going to be really rare, it should be because it requires insane skill, not a level of dedication that's plainly not fun.

Look, stop thinking of systems like the one relic weapons use as such positive things. Let's get our priorities straight here. Yes, there will be people who strive for Maat's Caps and Relic Weapons. There are people who have compulsion disorders and are such perfectionists that they'll attempt to cross any obstacle you place in front of them. That's not the central question.

Is it fun? Is it fun to do all the work required to get a relic weapon? And for how many people is it legitimately fun? I'm just gonna climb out on a ******* limb here and guess that it's close to zero.

And it's not that something that takes a lot of time to get can't be fun, but honestly, how many Dynamis can you do before it starts to get boring? How many ways can you raise millions of gil before it gets boring? That **** just needs to stop.
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#38 Oct 10 2009 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Once you got all your best gear quickly and easily, then what's next to do in the game, Kachi? Just randomly killing mobs for nothing? Is that really "fun"?

I'm all for accessible gear, but I'm surprised at how people seem to not want any challenge at all. To me, working to achieve a certain goal is "fun". But if others feel differently and prefer easy mode, that's fine too.
#39 Oct 10 2009 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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Vaagan wrote:
Once you got all your best gear quickly and easily, then what's next to do in the game, Kachi? Just randomly killing mobs for nothing? Is that really "fun"?
I'll kill random mobs just for fun as long as the fights interesting, yeah. The sense of accomplishment from winning a difficult battle is way higher than the sense from farming mob Y for six months straight to buy coins.

Edited, Oct 10th 2009 11:33pm by shintasama
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#40 Oct 10 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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How many times do you kill a mob before it gets uninteresting though? That's my main concern. I don't think I'd play FFXIV if just for "killing mobs randomly for fun". Regardless whether you just kill random mobs for fun or for farming, you'll still end up killing mobs repeatedly. The difference is simply whether you get a reward at the end or not.
#41 Oct 10 2009 at 8:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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So...
Because killing mobs repetitively gets boring...it should have systems that encourage it?



Edited, Oct 11th 2009 12:29am by Zemzelette
#42 Oct 11 2009 at 5:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Once you got all your best gear quickly and easily, then what's next to do in the game, Kachi? Just randomly killing mobs for nothing? Is that really "fun"?

I'm all for accessible gear, but I'm surprised at how people seem to not want any challenge at all. To me, working to achieve a certain goal is "fun". But if others feel differently and prefer easy mode, that's fine too.


Note: I posted under Techsupport earlier, lost my login :)

Getting gear is only one aspect to the game. I personally believe in making gear more accessible, but then again I can only log so many hours due to RL stuff.

I think the overlying point here is to make things more accessible to the "average" player and if you have the elite guys (which in many cases with FFXI just means they can log 12 hours a day) give them the things that will keep them occupied.

But once gear starts to become common place then release a patch/update with NEW gear and QUESTS to further gameplay. As I said earlier, another carrot to be chased to keep people paying and playing. In this type of scenerio there is no "best" gear but only the "best gear at the moment" so that you get the pimp gear and use it to enjoy the game until new and improved content comes out. Let's face it, we have proven with FFXI that we can and will play boring repetitive gameplay for our love of the game. Once you earn the higher ranking gear you can still find plenty of time and fun things to do until the next patch/upgrade comes, as long as it is a "good" upgrade.

The simple fact is that is you tailor a game to meet the needs primarily of the guy who logs 12 hours a day then you are doomed to be a mediocre game. Only a very small percentage will progress that fast and you will lose a lot of paying customers due to frustration. As a business owner I would know I couldn't make everyone happy and would more or less tailor to the majority (casual gamer). I know that statement is going to **** off the LEET players here but it is undeniably fact.

When it comes to gear I think the issue is no real improvements came down to us. The Hauby, SH, Ridill, blah blah blah have been a mainstay for years and years. I think SE needs to get away from timesinks to get uber gear and make more of a gear progression.

But even more importantly a better progression in patch/updates for people to use those items so there can be many timelines of play so to speak.

Rough example. Lets say player X play twice as much as player Z. Well doing that player X goes through quests faster and gains more/better gear faster and experiences more of the game. So when he earns that better gear he can utilize it to move further in the game, almost as if the gear is "required" (not in real terms) to move forward (using the Ridill to beat harder mobs). Well then player Z is still on his path earning the same gear but at a slower rate, same experience just a slower timeframe. In the current XI setup player Z is just sh*t out of luck because he can't dedicate enough time to the game. He will NEVER see a Ridill or Adaberk for example (me) :(

To tag to the main topic of this thread they need to eliminate the huge timesinsk to gather gil and equipment. You just won't see me playing a game that the majority of my time is trying to find currency so I can spend a few hours enjoying the rewards. I do that enough in RL and I am sure as **** not going to pay someone to do that in my "free" time.

There is a world of difference in watching a guy run through WG with all Hecta+1 set and ridill and such and saying ********** I can't wait to get there" and seeing the same guy and saying ********** I can't ever get there" is all I am saying. Which will keep people paying and playing?

Edited, Oct 11th 2009 8:48am by batpoop
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#43 Oct 11 2009 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Once you got all your best gear quickly and easily, then what's next to do in the game, Kachi? Just randomly killing mobs for nothing? Is that really "fun"?

I'm all for accessible gear, but I'm surprised at how people seem to not want any challenge at all. To me, working to achieve a certain goal is "fun". But if others feel differently and prefer easy mode, that's fine too.


Is the only point of playing to get gear? I think if you're only playing to get gear, and not having fun, you should just stop playing. See, I thought the point of the game was to have fun, not to mindlessly and tediously progress your character so that you can "reach your goal."

As for it being fun to work towards your goal, no, I just don't buy that anymore. People say it, but they don't videotape themselves playing. They forget about all the frustration and boredom they endured to get to the few moments of glee they experienced to reach their goal. That's a primary characteristic of a compulsion disorder. I have seen too many people that offer that line, and watching them play, it's so obvious that they're simply lacking in self-awareness. It's only true when you're still enjoying the journey and not letting it all ride on the destination. FFXI really pushes the limit of the journey, in fact it Level 8 Limit Break's it.

If you don't have 100 hours of new content to enjoy, don't put 100-hour-long goals in the game. I would rather have a game that just accepts, "Hey, we only have about 40 new hours of content this month." What will I do with that? I'll play 40 hours of content, then I'll wait for the next update. I have other things to do.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#44 Oct 11 2009 at 7:22 AM Rating: Decent
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If you don't have 100 hours of new content to enjoy, don't put 100-hour-long goals in the game. I would rather have a game that just accepts, "Hey, we only have about 40 new hours of content this month." What will I do with that? I'll play 40 hours of content, then I'll wait for the next update. I have other things to do.


You say that now, but I don't think it works in the end. Especially if you'd like to play but can't because there's nothing for you to do.
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#45 Oct 11 2009 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
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What if every piece of armor, weapon, item in the game etc... was able to be purchased by an npc as well. Then wouldnt that help set the price for things in personal bizarre's and AH's if thats added- and
for that high end and rare gear only being accessable when reaching such skill level in a particular weapon?
That would encourage us to play the game to reach such skill levels.
What if certain stipulations must be met in order to obtain such high end gear. like maxed skill in using all types of swords to be elidgable to purchase a Ridill type weapon or something along that lines.
Although we dont know how that pans out yet either in how we increase in skill per weapon.
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#46 Oct 11 2009 at 8:00 AM Rating: Decent
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You say that now, but I don't think it works in the end. Especially if you'd like to play but can't because there's nothing for you to do.


The thing is, there's always something to do when the game is fun. I'd rather have done everything too quickly and enjoyed it than have so much to do that I can't possibly finish without being incredibly bored.

There are plenty of other games out there to pass the time. Many of them are made by SE.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Oct 11 2009 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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The thing is, there's always something to do when the game is fun. I'd rather have done everything too quickly and enjoyed it than have so much to do that I can't possibly finish without being incredibly bored.


Sometimes doing things slowly is more enjoyable than doing things too quickly.

Or rather, getting to the end of something is not as fun as the road there. Why wouldn't you want the road to be as long as possible?
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#48 Oct 11 2009 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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Uh, well that's the thing. You can always stay on the road for as long as you want. It's only when you're forced to stay on the road to reach the destination that you get bored with the road.

Let me put it to you this way. If all I need is Helmet X, and I get Helmet X after 10 minutes, then hurray, I've got Helmet X already. Now I can keep playing for as long as I want. But if it takes me two days to get Helmet X and I only wanted to spend 1 hour tops getting Helmet X, I have to choose between doing as much of the journey as I feel like and never reaching the destination, or journeying a lot further than I want to reach it.

Those kinds of lose/lose situations for players should generally be avoided.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#49 Oct 11 2009 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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The journey of 1000 miles starts with the first step......er GOBLIN INVASION!
Sorry, I started off serious, but then goblins and eyepatches flew into my head.

P.S. Goblins will rule the economy with an iron fist, and the new currency will be eyepatches! HA!
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#50 Oct 11 2009 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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Sometimes doing things slowly is more enjoyable than doing things too quickly.
Doing the same thing over and over and over and over every day for months to years is not fun. Needs more variety.
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#51 Oct 11 2009 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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You know.. as crazy as it sounds.. the best thing about WoW was how easy it was to get enough gold for everything you needed at the earlier lvls. Now, in ffxi i remember i had to farm and farm and farm to buy my spells. Now, in WoW i when i lvled up i bought my spells with no problems.

Yes, that was the ONLY good thing I liked about WoW.
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ToAU: Royal Puppeteer

Don't let the past ruin your future.

http://bigmike50.mybrute.com
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