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Gil distribution: FFXI vs FFXIVFollow

#52 Oct 11 2009 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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shintasama wrote:

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You could replace all the junk item drops with gil drops, but you wouldn't be any further ahead. Those items were worthless for a reason: they were too common and too easily obtained. The market would demand that any amount of gil dropped in their place would be equally worthless, and if the devs didn't choose an appropriately low amount from the start, the prices of items would quickly raise to compensate. So now you're getting junk gil instead of junk items, which saves you a trip to the auction house (cutting out yet another inter-player interaction -- why do people want to do that?) at the cost of steady inflation.
People don't AH worthless drops, they NPC them. You're gaining the same "inflation" (aka, none at all as long as there are appropriate sinks) as if each "earth crystal" instead directly dropped 15 gil (or w/e it was), w/o all the inventory waste, running around, system abuse, general stupidity, excess coding, etc.

Alright, if all you want is 15 gil to drop from mobs, I guess it's not going to harm anything. I just have no idea what the point is -- we seem to be agreed that meaningful amounts of money can't drop from monsters, so it's not like this is going to make getting cash any easier. And those cheap crafting drops still have to come from somewhere.

Seriha wrote:
That said, general gear progression in endgame can follow an evolutionary scale. Let's just use the Haubergeon, for example. In XI it can get crafted up to a Hauberk, and then the Adaman Hauberk if you also happen upon the abjuration. They could repeat this with crafts, even having ingredients come from HNMs or whatever, or the equipment itself could be the catalyst for a Leve that gets you to the next tier. Losing shouldn't ***** you out of your item, but the higher up you go, the harder you should expect the content to become.

I think I like this idea. In a game like WoW, I hear complaints that because they're always adding better items, the old items and the old content required to get it become useless. FFXI tried to get around this by focusing on sideways instead of upward growth on its endgame items. That must have worked reasonably well, since I think people are still fighting every day to obtain both the new and old items (and it probably encouraged the devs to come up with more creative enhancements than just +52 damage instead of +50), but it didn't exactly make for really exciting new additions with each update. Adding new items that must be upgraded from the old ones avoids both problems.

Kachi wrote:
The bottom line is that in general, getting a lot of gil isn't fun. However you go about doing it, it's extremely tedious. Frankly, I would rather have gear be more common than be inaccessible, and if it's going to be really rare, it should be because it requires insane skill, not a level of dedication that's plainly not fun.

Nobody levels a craft to 100 just as a chore to pay for their other activities. When you're looking at that kind of time commitment, you need something more.

There are whole communities of people who are interested in nothing else but crafting and gathering. Enough of them exist that SE is creating entire dedicated crafting/gathering jobs in this game. Clearly there are a lot of people who think the work of earning gil is fun.

Kachi wrote:

Is the only point of playing to get gear? I think if you're only playing to get gear, and not having fun, you should just stop playing. See, I thought the point of the game was to have fun, not to mindlessly and tediously progress your character so that you can "reach your goal."

I'm probably just going to retread the last long-*** argument we had about this, but what the ****.

If you have no interest in gradually progressing to reach a goal, you are so playing the wrong kind of game. Incremental upgrades are literally the defining feature of the RPG genre. There is nothing else! If you freely explore a big world and chat with NPCs, you might have an RPG or you might have an adventure game. If you've got strategic, menu-based combat, you might have an RPG or you might have a tactical game. If you've got a complex story, you might have an RPG or you might have just about any game these days. But if a big part of the game is working to get a new shield and training to upgrade your clobbering skill to level 24, you've got yourself an RPG.

There are a million genres out there that you could be playing if all you want is to jump in and out for some day-to-day fun with no lasting progress. If you still want the persistent world and social aspects, you might try something like All Points Bulletin.

Now of course I agree that the activities that make up the "grind" -- fighting, crafting, fishing, or whatever -- should themselves be fun. And sometimes they weren't in FFXI. But saying you want to cut out the grind altogether is like saying you want to play Tetris without all those **** blocks in the way.

If you've played action games and shooters and all that and still keep coming back to RPGs, then I think you enjoy the "tedium" of working towards a goal much more than you're aware.

Edited, Oct 11th 2009 3:59pm by Borkachev
#53TheShadowWalker, Posted: Oct 11 2009 at 1:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) MAKE THE GAME EASIER PLZ. I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET GIL IN FFXI. PLZ MAKE IT SO I CAN BE RICH AND COOL IN FFXIV BECAUSE IT'S IMPORTANT TO ME TO BE RLY GOOD AT THIS VIDEO GAME. I LOVE COMMUNISM B/C IT'S EASY TO EXPLOIT. WOO, NO WORK.
#54 Oct 11 2009 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you have no interest in gradually progressing to reach a goal, you are so playing the wrong kind of game. Incremental upgrades are literally the defining feature of the RPG genre. There is nothing else! If you freely explore a big world and chat with NPCs, you might have an RPG or you might have an adventure game. If you've got strategic, menu-based combat, you might have an RPG or you might have a tactical game. If you've got a complex story, you might have an RPG or you might have just about any game these days. But if a big part of the game is working to get a new shield and training to upgrade your clobbering skill to level 24, you've got yourself an RPG.

Now of course I agree that the activities that make up the "grind" -- fighting, crafting, fishing, or whatever -- should themselves be fun. And sometimes they weren't in FFXI. But saying you want to cut out the grind altogether is like saying you want to play Tetris without all those **** blocks in the way.

If you've played action games and shooters and all that and still keep coming back to RPGs, then I think you enjoy the "tedium" of working towards a goal much more than you're aware.




There is no developer on this planet that wants to make a game that isn't fun.

If there's an aspect of a game that isn't fun it was either because it appeals to a different gamer-type than you are or for technical/financial reasons.

Developers don't blindly add elements to a game and say 'well, it's the genre'. That's just repeating the technical/financial mistakes of your predecessors and clinging to the vague hope that calling it traditional will somehow make it enjoyable. These things are resorted to, not aspired to.

You'll notice that longevity is not a factor here. Not in this list, or the two others popularly used. Tedious Progression is a subset of the Conqueror gamer-type, which is satisfied by Challenge. Challenge via Tedious Progression is just one of the many ways to make a player feel as though they triumphed over adversity. It also happens to be one of the least effective, least satisfying to the other gamer types, and the most cost-effective to implement. This is especially so in the case of things we label Timesinks - but I'm also referring in a more general sense to the length of time it takes to level or acquire gil.

When MMOs were still niche, that was acceptable. But now, MMOs are no longer in the state where they need to sacrifice fun for the sake of finances. They're in a position to evolve. Requesting that a company take advantage of our collective cultivated tolerance in an act of self-imposed stagnation isn't really doing us, or the industry, any favors.

Edited, Oct 11th 2009 6:45pm by Zemzelette
#55 Oct 11 2009 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nobody levels a craft to 100 just as a chore to pay for their other activities.
I did (well, 98 since I couldn't get to a higher HQ tier, but still)
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sometimes they weren't in FFXI. But saying you want to cut out the grind altogether is like saying you want to play Tetris without all those **** blocks in the way.
Idk what you're talking about here. There are plenty of RPGs that don't require "grinding" skills. Leveling just occurs as a natural part of completing the storyline. That is much more entertaining I feel than "grind mob Y for months to get to max level and then do the story".
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#56 Oct 12 2009 at 12:38 AM Rating: Good
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TheShadowWalker wrote:
MAKE THE GAME EASIER PLZ. I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET GIL IN FFXI. PLZ MAKE IT SO I CAN BE RICH AND COOL IN FFXIV BECAUSE IT'S IMPORTANT TO ME TO BE RLY GOOD AT THIS VIDEO GAME. I LOVE COMMUNISM B/C IT'S EASY TO EXPLOIT. WOO, NO WORK.


I could be wrong, but I don't anyone here is asking to make the game easier. The bottom line is it's not easy to make gil in FFXI in a reasonable time frame. Sure you can spam BCNM's, ENM's and stuff like that hoping to get lucky, but it's all a gamble. Mining for Khrona ore in Mt Z., again a gamble. Gardening anything is a gamble. Craft in general is a gamble and without HQ you typically lose gil.

The 2 ways most people use to make gil. Exploiting a glitch or recent patch taking advantage of supply/demand and mercing gear from all sorts of events.. HNM drops, Sea/Limbus/SKY/etc drops. For your average player, it's not easy or feasible to earn gil without help on a casual schedule. If you check the survey of who purchases gil, it's typically causal players that try to make up for their lack of playing time. Supporting RMT by purchasing gil only increases their numbers which in turn causes more of them to directly challenge us at earning gil. So you see, it's in everyone's including SE to improve the methods of both earning and spending gil. Nobody is expecting a handout, only a fair shake per your playtime and skill.
#57 Oct 12 2009 at 2:07 AM Rating: Decent
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The simple fact is that is you tailor a game to meet the needs primarily of the guy who logs 12 hours a day then you are doomed to be a mediocre game. Only a very small percentage will progress that fast and you will lose a lot of paying customers due to frustration. As a business owner I would know I couldn't make everyone happy and would more or less tailor to the majority (casual gamer).

I think the biggest mistake that most people make these days is to split players/customers into "hardcore players" and "casual players" and then make a game that caters to one as if it's impossible to cater for both. So this question comes to mind, why can't we expect a game that caters for both hardcore and casual players?

An interesting interview that I read a month ago in a gaming magazine with the dude in charge of Starcraft II had a part when he said "We always focus on the hardcore players first at Blizzard" and then went on to explain that what he said does not actually mean "hardcore vs casual", but it's all about quality. If you offer a quality game, even casual gamer would WANT to play the game as much as they can (as if they are hardcore). Then you know you're successful. But if you focus on satisfying only hardcore or casual, you'd lose. The target market should be everyone, not "minority" or "majority". The dude even mentioned how he personally knows a grandma with better geared WoW character than him because the grandma wants to play WoW.

I'm not saying that FFXIV should be like WoW (considering how successful WoW is, but somehow often hated by FFXI players), but there's a lesson here not to immediately stereotype and separate players into hardcore and casual. If the game is of good quality, then players will want to play it. That's what I hope from FFXIV. A good quality game where a casual player like me can still enjoy the game and find both fun and challenge from the game.

If what I find to be challenging and fun is different than others, then that's fine too. I can understand that.
#58 Oct 12 2009 at 3:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Vaagan wrote:

I think the biggest mistake that most people make these days is to split players/customers into "hardcore players" and "casual players" and then make a game that caters to one as if it's impossible to cater for both. So this question comes to mind, why can't we expect a game that caters for both hardcore and casual players?


I won't speak for everyone, but I will say when I think of "casual", I think of someone who doesn't have a lot time to play. You know the type, the family man with a full-time job and other RL hobbies. Compare that to a "hardcore" player that is on 7 days week with events every night. Salvage, Limbus, Einherjar, Assault, Nyzul, HNM camping, SEA, ZNM, and so forth. If you compare both types, the "casual" player barely has time to farm or earn gil outside of gardening or maybe a static ENM. That's the problem with FFXI, IMO. Please realize I'm giving an example, it's not a perfect indicator. But also understand that "casual" players are more likely to purchase gil because they are so far behind off the bat. That's not a shot at "casual" players, but I do hope SE realizes this. A ex-ls mate of mine was banned recently for buying gil. I truly believe it was in part due to the lack of ways to earn money in this game that's both reliable and in a timely fashion.

Edited, Oct 12th 2009 6:08am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#59 Oct 12 2009 at 3:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I understand your example, but what I don't understand is why a casual gamer expecting to be like a hardcore player in terms of not only income, but also expense.

I'll use myself as an example. I play now only once or twice a week for 3-4hr each. I'm not involved in any end-game LS (well one Dynamis LS that I just joined a few weeks ago, but we lose money at Dynamis anyway, not making money). The "end-game" event that I do is Nyzul Isle, not even every single week. My static PT members pick what to do for the week, so we change things around. Everything sounds casual enough, right? My gil cost is basically only covering for consumables now (ninja tools, meds, and food). That's it. I don't need 20M to complete my Salvage set, I don't need 50M to buy K-club, I don't need 100M for my relic/mythic, I don't even need 2.5M for Kirin's Osode.

Now if I were to start from scratch and need money for gear, what are the "expensive" gear? There are so many good AH items that are reasonably priced such as Haubergeon, SH, Dusk Gloves, Pallas Bracelet, Spectacles, Chivalrous Chain, Woodsman Ring, etc. If you're hardcore, then yeah, you'd go for Alky's, PCC, Toreador's, Hauby+1, Dusk+1, etc. But if you're casual, surely "2nd best" items are reasonable enough. It's not like you need "the best gear" if you hardly have enough time to play to begin with.

I'm not saying that it's easy to make money in FFXI (it's not), but it's not super difficult either (it's not). If you play hardcore, then you'll make lots of money and you'll spend a lot of money. If you play casually, then you'll make less money, but you'll also spend less. To play casually and expect to earn and spend lots of money just doesn't make sense.


EDIT: I'd also like to add that even if money is easy to be made, that will probably create inflation so that it won't change that casual players who play for 5 hours/week would still be behind those who play for more.

Edited, Oct 12th 2009 7:33am by Vaagan
#60 Oct 12 2009 at 4:06 AM Rating: Good
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Vaagan wrote:

I'm not saying that it's easy to make money in FFXI (it's not), but it's not super difficult either (it's not). If you play hardcore, then you'll make lots of money and you'll spend a lot of money. If you play casually, then you'll make less money, but you'll also spend less. To play casually and expect to earn and spend lots of money just doesn't make sense.


The problem with this, though, is that usually, when the casual gamer wants to progress, the majority of the people able to help them are the "hard core" players, who just end up judging you and giving you grief because when you "spend less" you aren't up to snuff. And then the whole "what do you mean you can't make gil? its easy!" argument starts all over again.
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#61 Oct 12 2009 at 4:31 AM Rating: Decent
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The way I see it is like this. Let's say casual player can make 50k/week and need 3 weeks to buy Hauby at 150k. Now let's make it easier so that casual player can earn 500k/week. Would Hauby still cost the same at 150k at that kind of economy? I doubt it. It'd most likely inflate to 1.5M making it the same 3 weeks time to buy Hauby whether it's easy to make gil or not.

Making gil to be easier to obtain doesn't really solve any problem because what matters in the economy isn't what casual player can earn or what hardcore player can earn, but what the whole player base can earn including both casual and hardcore player PLUS the RMT.
#62 Oct 12 2009 at 5:31 AM Rating: Good
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Nobody levels a craft to 100 just as a chore to pay for their other activities. When you're looking at that kind of time commitment, you need something more.

There are whole communities of people who are interested in nothing else but crafting and gathering. Enough of them exist that SE is creating entire dedicated crafting/gathering jobs in this game. Clearly there are a lot of people who think the work of earning gil is fun.


You're using that argument against the absolute worst person. I was THE crafter, my friend. My LS called me Martha, because I was all about crafts like Martha Stewart (...unfortunately, that's true). I leveled Woodworking to 100, all my subs to 60, then I deleveled woodworking and leveled Smithing to 100. And I played the **** out of the economy. Were it not for that, I'm sure I would have quit the game MUCH sooner.

It STILL gets old.

As for your arguments about RPGs, I've played dozens of them. Incremental progression is not the defining feature of an RPG (let alone a GOOD RPG), just like you can't argue that someone shouldn't play platformers if they don't like platformers that have nothing but poorly-implemented jumping. Strategy and role-playing have also always been an aspect of RPGS. Strategy is the decisive combat element, often with time and accuracy elements thrown in (even in FFXI, though not nearly enough), that creates the challenge that allows it to be a game. And it's not an RPG when you have incremental progression but no role to play in the world.

But if you're going to suggest that RPGs aren't for me, I'm going to have to counter that my favorite games of all time are RPGs, and I still find good ones to play. Incremental progression is not inherently boring-- implementation and presentation are critical. Tedium is not an essential element to RPGs. Maybe the ones you've played, but don't speak for me.



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#63 Oct 12 2009 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Vaagan wrote:

I'm not saying that it's easy to make money in FFXI (it's not), but it's not super difficult either (it's not). If you play hardcore, then you'll make lots of money and you'll spend a lot of money. If you play casually, then you'll make less money, but you'll also spend less. To play casually and expect to earn and spend lots of money just doesn't make sense.


EDIT: I'd also like to add that even if money is easy to be made, that will probably create inflation so that it won't change that casual players who play for 5 hours/week would still be behind those who play for more.


All I'm suggesting here is gil shouldn't be such a part of playing FFXIV as it is FFXI. Think of a MMO like a real virtual world. In a 24hr period, how often do you expect to work? That's where I have issues with FFXI. There isn't a method that's safe and reliable for causal players to make a buck. Yeah, a lot of people like to garden, but I hardly call that ideal for everyone.

Now that doesn't mean it's fair to expect a PT player to earn what a FT player does. All I hope to get across is that there isn't enough simple ways to make gil for your average "causal" player. The amount of gil you own shouldn't be such a huge deal. Nobody should feel like they ever need 50mil for any reason.

The inflation you speak of would exist in FFXI's system, hopefully not FFXIV. What I'm proposing is that the gil earning isn't so much a big deal for anyone including "hardcore" players. So it's not like anyone should feel the need to farm for days to buy something that's considered a must have item. Acquiring a lot gil shouldn't be the focus of FFXIV. Keeping your armor/weapons in good shape, buying food and basic items, and only occasional gear purchases to keep you up to date. Crafting shouldn't be a gil sink for example.

I'm confident the Guildeves system kinda works like MMM for crafting. The items are provided in a sense allowing for skill ups, but without causing inflation. I hope that SE continues to provide ways for everyone to earn gil without inflating the economy, for both casual and hardcore players alike.
#64 Oct 12 2009 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with what you wish for, but I don't see any solution offered at all. Of course it's nice to play a game where it's easy to make money, no real need to have the uber gear and whatnot while having no inflation. But how do we exactly achieve that? What I've shown to you is that if you make it easy to make money for casual players, then it's be even easier for hardcore players to make money, and super duper easy for RMT to make money. This will definitely lead to inflation which in the end doesn't really help the casual players at all.

What do we know in FFXIV that will make it different than FFXI in terms of economy? So far, what we know is that FFXIV has durability on armor/weapon, making it yet another "cost" to cover for these casual players. FFXIV info hasn't offered anything yet about the "earn" side of the game.

What you have to keep in mind is that price is totally based on players themselves. SE didn't put 2.5M price tag on Kirin's Osode. SE didn't put 2M price tag on PCC. The players did, based on the economy.

The only solution I find to be plausible is suggested by COGSs on the first page of this thread by adding armor/weapon sold by NPCs in set price. If you make it so that casual player can make 100k/week and then make things like Hauby to be available on NPC for 10k, then you'll get a system where getting gear is easy and probably no inflation because you can just simply sell/buy everything from NPC. But then it'll become a game where the economy is not player based because everything is controlled by NPC. Do we want such a game?
#65 Oct 12 2009 at 4:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Vaagan wrote:
I agree with what you wish for, but I don't see any solution offered at all. Of course it's nice to play a game where it's easy to make money, no real need to have the uber gear and whatnot while having no inflation. But how do we exactly achieve that? What I've shown to you is that if you make it easy to make money for casual players, then it's be even easier for hardcore players to make money, and super duper easy for RMT to make money. This will definitely lead to inflation which in the end doesn't really help the casual players at all.


I don't agree with you on the RMT premise. The reason why the RMT flourish is because players feel the need to buy gil. The easier it is for the casual player to earn enough gil to function, the less of an impact the RMT will have on us, inflation or not. Think about it for a moment. Most if not all MMORPG's have RMT. The games where gold is easier to farm has less of a RMT impact. Sure they might be there, but just like in FFXI, unless you're bumping into them competing at NM pops, you'd barely know they are there. Blocking off all "easy" methods of earning gil in FFXI for a starting low-level player, RMT's now pray on our accounts themselves hacking our info. I'm not fond of the RMT, however the goal of eliminating them isn't realistic. It's more feasible to make a game that doesn't require their services instead of worrying about how RMT will exploit an easy gil system.

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What do we know in FFXIV that will make it different than FFXI in terms of economy? So far, what we know is that FFXIV has durability on armor/weapon, making it yet another "cost" to cover for these casual players. FFXIV info hasn't offered anything yet about the "earn" side of the game.

What you have to keep in mind is that price is totally based on players themselves. SE didn't put 2.5M price tag on Kirin's Osode. SE didn't put 2M price tag on PCC. The players did, based on the economy.


I hope to see less high prized items that are sold in FFXIV. Instead I rather see more "instanced" content that helps people to obtain nice gear. I'd rather do a Guildeves BCNM style event for Peacock charms than be able to purchase them from another player. The only reason the Peacock charm is worth 2mil is because of the rarity of the drop. If SE would release items like the Peacock charm in Guildeves, yet change the drop rate to about 45-55%, the cost of the item wouldn't be nearly so high. That way you could obtain uber gear without paying though the nose. Challenge and skill should be the determining factor, not luck and exploitation. If everyone more or less has roughly around the same gil per their play time, it's easier to encourage players to enjoy the content and focus on adding more content instead of constant economy fixes. SE spent so much of their time and resources tracking down the RMT and their exploits than working on FFXI's design/class flaws. FFXIV would focus on doing events solo,duo, trio or with a group of players and adventuring to the far reaches of the land. If someone is "helping" with a mission, give them a nice incentive in terms of gil and skill points. Make it worth their time to help new players this time around and everything will fit into place. The highly prized FFXI items should exist in some form, but that doesn't mean it should alter the economy in the process. Effort should count for something which SE explored with their Einherjar system.

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The only solution I find to be plausible is suggested by COGSs on the first page of this thread by adding armor/weapon sold by NPCs in set price. If you make it so that casual player can make 100k/week and then make things like Hauby to be available on NPC for 10k, then you'll get a system where getting gear is easy and probably no inflation because you can just simply sell/buy everything from NPC. But then it'll become a game where the economy is not player based because everything is controlled by NPC. Do we want such a game?


Or we could just have crafters repair a Hauby and maybe enhance it with a pattern following the repairs to help advertise their services. SE already confirmed the unique patterns in FFXIV on armor. I'm not suggesting a player can't make a Hauby, just saying because of the durables, all crafters will benefit from repairing the armor. I agree though, FFXIV should be controlled by the player base.
#66 Oct 12 2009 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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In terms of how things work with an NPC shop, what if the items they receive are the end product or even materials obtained through guild leves. Basically if you did a crafting Guild leve you are being contracted by an NPC for x amount of money to produce armor, weapons or food for them to sell in their market for a certain amount of gil. They hand you rare/ex ingredients and crystals to work on the order and agree to pay extra if you finish quicker, or even give you non rare/ex ingredients that you can freely use to synth whatever you wish.

Basically money is earned through completing Guild leves, mages/fighters earn it based off completing a successful leve, crafters and gatherers gain extra amounts of gil because they are performing a task of either gathering or crafting a product for an NPC to sell for them.

To take a consideration into solo play of all 4 paths, overall the Mages/fighters will be able to earn more money over time because they will be able to fight and rely on themselves to obtain materials and ingredients to sell on the market, while gatherer's and crafters will act as contractors to perform a task with the skills they know.

Of course from what SE has said you are limited by how much leves you can do a day so while mages/fighters will have an easier time to hone their skills, gatherer's and crafters will have a harder time unless they are able to successfully turn a profit on what they buy and sell.

This is where repairing does come in handy but it only works for a few jobs, like a smith. A cook can't really repair anything unless a person can get heartburn from eating some bad food.

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but just repairing gear doesn't sound very lucrative of a business to me where you can just repair items if you have the skill to repair them. I believe SE plans to make it just more then paying a PC money to bring armor back to 100%. I imagine that people who take up the path of a crafter will gain abilities that enhance the defense against certain types of attacks like piercing/slashing/blunt until the next repair, or for an x amount of time while equipped. Maybe even stat boost, or elemental resistance increasing, something that puts an oomph into repairing where let's say if you could just buy new armor from an NPC, people might just find that to be more convenient then to search out someone to repair it for them.




#67 Oct 12 2009 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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I don't agree with you on the RMT premise. The reason why the RMT flourish is because players feel the need to buy gil. The easier it is for the casual player to earn enough gil to function, the less of an impact the RMT will have on us, inflation or not.

Like my example before, casual player can make 500k/week, but if the price of Hauby is 1.5M because of inflation, then casual player will still need 3 weeks to buy Hauby. It's not just about "earning", but also in comparison to the "cost" too. Cost is affected by inflation in a player based economy because of supply and demand.

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Think about it for a moment. Most if not all MMORPG's have RMT. The games where gold is easier to farm has less of a RMT impact. Sure they might be there, but just like in FFXI, unless you're bumping into them competing at NM pops, you'd barely know they are there.

I'm not sure I follow you here. You consider FFXI as a game where it's difficult to make money as the reason why your friend bought gil and got banned, but now you're using FFXI as an example where you'd barely know RMT exists as if FFXI falls into the "gold is easier to farm" game.

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It's more feasible to make a game that doesn't require their services instead of worrying about how RMT will exploit an easy gil system.

Correct, but again, it's not always only about the gil earning. It's back to supply and demand. What you want to do is actually "make it easy to get money AND make plentiful of supply available as to push prices down and not inflated". If Hauby is a level 10 smithing craft with ingredients that are very easy to obtain, I'm sure the price would be FAR lower than what it is now. But again the question is, do we want a game where everything is cheap? If nothing is profitable, why would anyone bother doing anything? Would players bother farming and selling on AH instead of NPC-ing? Would players bother crafting at all? And so on. That would simply kill the economy.
#68 Oct 12 2009 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Vaagan wrote:

Like my example before, casual player can make 500k/week, but if the price of Hauby is 1.5M because of inflation, then casual player will still need 3 weeks to buy Hauby. It's not just about "earning", but also in comparison to the "cost" too. Cost is affected by inflation in a player based economy because of supply and demand.


The only reason the Hauby was ever worth millions was because the component used to make them was very rare. Once BLM manaburn groups and RMT flooded the market with D. ingots, the price of the Hauby dropped like a rock. So now because of FFXI, SE has a better understanding of how to improve balance of items and their rarity.

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I'm not sure I follow you here. You consider FFXI as a game where it's difficult to make money as the reason why your friend bought gil and got banned, but now you're using FFXI as an example where you'd barely know RMT exists as if FFXI falls into the "gold is easier to farm" game.


RMT will always exist no matter what. If their services weren't used very often, RMT and their gold farming operation would decrease as a result. Gil isn't easier to make in FFXI, prices just dropped making it easier to survive. Dynamis, Limbus, and chocobo stables drop in services helped a great deal. RMT's were known for their lv.1 fishing bots. So what did SE do, they created goblin hunters to MPk them. That failed so they made fishing suck until you reach lv20(or higher I forget). The only safe method for RMT's now is their crafting accounts which I'm sure the Special Task Force watches like a hawk.

I don't know why my friend bought gil exactly. Maybe he wanted an item beyond his bank account. All I'm saying here is that if you make it easier to afford stuff, you'll strike a heavy blow to the RMT. It's the RMT's fault we have inflation in the first place so by less players using their services, the economy will recover when they depart for other games easier to exploit. A handful of RMT vs hordes of RMT is the difference.

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If Hauby is a level 10 smithing craft with ingredients that are very easy to obtain, I'm sure the price would be FAR lower than what it is now. But again the question is, do we want a game where everything is cheap? If nothing is profitable, why would anyone bother doing anything? Would players bother farming and selling on AH instead of NPC-ing? Would players bother crafting at all? And so on. That would simply kill the economy.



You keep forgetting that armor degrades in FFXIV. In FFXI, you craft a Hauby and sell it in one lump sum. You'll never have to repair it or worry about purchasing another Hauby ever unless you prefer the HQ version. Quite frankly, I like to see less drops to sell, more gil obtained from mobs themselves. Players would bother crafting to provide services to repair armor, weapons, and tools. Like Alchemy now, you pop a potion and you lose it. Alchemists continue to earn gil by selling consumables. So no, you wouldn't kill the economy at all. Besides, I believe the Guideves system will encompass all facets of the FFXIV world.
#69 Oct 13 2009 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I won't speak for everyone, but I will say when I think of "casual", I think of someone who doesn't have a lot time to play. You know the type, the family man with a full-time job and other RL hobbies. Compare that to a "hardcore" player that is on 7 days week with events every night. Salvage, Limbus, Einherjar, Assault, Nyzul, HNM camping, SEA, ZNM, and so forth. If you compare both types, the "casual" player barely has time to farm or earn gil outside of gardening or maybe a static ENM. That's the problem with FFXI, IMO. Please realize I'm giving an example, it's not a perfect indicator. But also understand that "casual" players are more likely to purchase gil because they are so far behind off the bat. That's not a shot at "casual" players, but I do hope SE realizes this. A ex-ls mate of mine was banned recently for buying gil. I truly believe it was in part due to the lack of ways to earn money in this game that's both reliable and in a timely fashion.


This is exactly my point. I view the casual player as someone who not only wants to ply but has the "ability" to play, in other words not a total **** stick. I'll use my example, I love to play FFXI (hate WOW though) but I truly don't have time to play. I am a husband and father of three with a schedule of about 55-60 hours a week. On my days off I am usually busy with RL (foortball games, ballet lessons and just hanging out with my 6 mnth old). And when I do have time to play I can't just dedicate 3-4 hours straight because of my household situation. That is the ONLY reason I quit FFXI. I still need to complete COP and a lot fo other quests for me to really move forward with my toon (War and Blm) but can't due to time constraints. Even to sit down and co0ordinate an assualt run it hard to do sometimes. That is the aspect of FFIV I am looking forward to most, the ability to just sit down and play for under an hour and still get something accomplised.

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I'm not sure I follow you here. You consider FFXI as a game where it's difficult to make money as the reason why your friend bought gil and got banned, but now you're using FFXI as an example where you'd barely know RMT exists as if FFXI falls into the "gold is easier to farm" game.


I think his example is a good one actually. The mechanics of making gil in FFXI is more on the difficult side compared to most MMO's, I think everyone would agree with that. Now SE went the total other direction of most game developers and battled RMT in another way, not by changing the economy but by battling them directly, little seek and destroy missions if you will. Which greatly reduced the RMT but still makes it difficult to make any real amount of gil.

As for his firend buying gil due to not having time, I can have sympathy. I got VERY lucky and quit the game when prices were sky high (7-8 mil SH and such) and sold everything getting quite a hefty bank account (it wasn't large back then) and just sat on my account. Well when I started playing again I suddenly had enough gil to do most anything (within reason) that I wnated to do. Now if that didn't occur to me quite honest money isn't a real issue with me in RL and I probably would consider buying gil because of the very limited playtime I have and I wouldn't want to farm for 3-4 weeks just to be able to play for a week or two fo fun. Does that make sense?

Now I totally understand the the LEEt players should be better equipped than us average players. But I am a perfectionist in RL and won't pay to play a game knowing I will ALWAYS be sub par just based on the amount of time I play vs the skill I have.

The player based economy will always have spikes due to badass gear like KC, MC, +1 type of stuff. I think the best way to get the economy in control is to have these type of things RARE/EX with a higher drop rate but not to extreme to make them common. But I guess time will tell what SE will do with our game. I know it is personal but I hope that make things more accessible to htose of use who can't dedicate half an afternoon 4 times a week.
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#70 Oct 13 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Meh, it's really not that hard to make money in ffxi. I can spend 1 hour a day and have plenty to use. You actually have to spend time to make money in ffxi, as opposed to WoW where you just easily get what you need without really trying 95% of the time. Something in between would be nice.
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#71 Oct 13 2009 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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If you look back at the last census, the people who made HUGE amounts of gil on a monthly basis got it from selling high end drops. Gaiters. Haut. Novio. hach haidate. Black tath. ancient torque. hermes. ixion cape. etc.



I would really like to see a system where the people who join these mega-linkshells with 24/7 hnm coverage aren't so disproportionally rich. Not to say that people who play 8 hours a day shouldn't be able to make more than someone who plays 2 hours a day. But a system where they make 4x more rather than 100x more would be nice.



I have max digging, max fishing with ebisu, and 3 max crafts with full subs. I've put way more time into gil making resources than the average person in these mega linkshells. And yet there is no way I can make gil at the same rate as them just because they have a brd at 75 and are unemployed.




A look at the way ultimate weapons are achieved should also be addressed. Right now there are two effective ways to get a relic. 1) Be a dynamis sponsor where basically an entire shell is funding your relic. 2) Be in a linkshell like the one mentioned above. With current prices if you make 50k/hr and spend 3 hours a day on making gil, it will take over 4 years to finish. OR you can get one in one year with 1/4th the cost if your linkshell only gets 150 coins per run. Double that currency rate and you pay 1/8th while getting it 800% faster. It shouldn't be that way. It really unlevels the playing field when you allow a system where people are paying 10x less just because they suckered people into joining their dynamis group. I don't know the answer. But level the playing field where effort = reward.
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#72 Oct 13 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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BarberofSeville wrote:
If you look back at the last census, the people who made HUGE amounts of gil on a monthly basis got it from selling high end drops. Gaiters. Haut. Novio. hach haidate. Black tath. ancient torque. hermes. ixion cape. etc.

I would really like to see a system where the people who join these mega-linkshells with 24/7 hnm coverage aren't so disproportionally rich. Not to say that people who play 8 hours a day shouldn't be able to make more than someone who plays 2 hours a day. But a system where they make 4x more rather than 100x more would be nice.


Agreed, that's why I want to be rid of the 24-72hr pop times for these normal HNM's. Instead as suggested, put AV and PW mobs on them instead making sure that if you hope to defeat them, you're bringing a lot of help. Most people don't realize that these HNM players have an unfair advantage because of the spawn times. For example, unless you have NA, EU, and JP players in your LS, it's almost impossible to claim these HNM's on a regular basis. The LS's that dominate on my server have all the time zones covered with a full staff. Compare that to your average endgame LS that has only a handful of people on due to RL reasons. So instead of camping HNM's in FFXIV, I really like to see "instances" used in their place. That way, more and more people will gather their friends and fight these HNM's together like they do now with the ZNM system. Of course get rid of the picture taking system and just replace with "tags" or chances per your Guildeves charges. That way, the content is more fair for everyone. Some people don't like this method because it the rare drops might get more spread out to your average player. My response is that people that say that are probably in endgame LS's that sell drops earning millions and taking advantage of these people.


Quote:

I have max digging, max fishing with ebisu, and 3 max crafts with full subs. I've put way more time into gil making resources than the average person in these mega linkshells. And yet there is no way I can make gil at the same rate as them just because they have a brd at 75 and are unemployed.


Sounds about right to me. People that claim money is easy to make in FFXI know a special place to earn gil. If you ever ask them where, they'll freak out because they know if someone finds out their secret, they might have a hard time earning gil themselves. Earning gil shouldn't be a secret, there should be enough opportunities just like RL. You should be able to farm skins in theory for your leather craft and support yourself, but it doesn't work that way. Part of the reason is because too many people do that too due to limited "jobs" and the other reason is the lack of good crafting materials. You can't farm Behe hides, D. ingots, or even Shining cloths. Granted, those materials would drop too after awhile because of the stale system, however that's what FFXIV needs. The ability for anyone to hop on, farm some wolf pelts, and make a few bucks before logging to head to the football game. Instead FFXI's weakness is lack of real ways to make gil that don't rely on gambling and time limitations.






#73 Oct 13 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Meh, it's really not that hard to make money in ffxi. I can spend 1 hour a day and have plenty to use. You actually have to spend time to make money in ffxi, as opposed to WoW where you just easily get what you need without really trying 95% of the time. Something in between would be nice.


That's the point, requiring huge sums of time isn't casual or is it worth the effort. What do you do for this hour? craft? I know you're a THF so that's a good job to have if farming anything. The money problems of FFXI isn't just about the limited ways of making gil, but the unbalanced ways of gil earning by some people. We have sunk to RMT standards of botting HNM's and selling their drops. Those are the only people in this game that have several relic weapons to prove it. Coincidence, I think not.
#74 Oct 13 2009 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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But then it'll become a game where the economy is not player based because everything is controlled by NPC. Do we want such a game?
I'm surprisingly ok with that. There are way to many stupid MFers who sell goods at less than it takes to make them and items that are impossible to find because no one wants to farm some ingredient so everything gets bottlenecked into a handful of (barely) profitable synths out of hundreds available.
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#75 Oct 13 2009 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Meh, it's really not that hard to make money in ffxi. I can spend 1 hour a day and have plenty to use. You actually have to spend time to make money in ffxi, as opposed to WoW where you just easily get what you need without really trying 95% of the time. Something in between would be nice.


That's the point, requiring huge sums of time isn't casual or is it worth the effort. What do you do for this hour? craft? I know you're a THF so that's a good job to have if farming anything. The money problems of FFXI isn't just about the limited ways of making gil, but the unbalanced ways of gil earning by some people. We have sunk to RMT standards of botting HNM's and selling their drops. Those are the only people in this game that have several relic weapons to prove it. Coincidence, I think not.


Yeah, I just buy stuff off the AH, craft it, and sell it for a profit. I've spent the majority of my free time fishing though since I got my bonecraft, and leather+alchemy subs where I wanted them. Although, just doing campaign gets me enough money to get by actually. If I wasn't trying to HQ certain things for myself then all I would need to do is enough campaign to advance me from medal to medal and I'd have enough gil to spend thanks to unions.
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#76 Oct 14 2009 at 3:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Animal Crossing is essentially a game where you play as a "gatherer" who sells to the NPC, and it seems to do ok. I could see the same extending to crafting and still being successful. I don't think the exclusion or deemphasis of a playerbased market is necessarily a dealbreaker. It's not as if the market is a highly social element of the game when everything is filtered through an anonymous AH or afk bazaars anyway.
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#77 Oct 14 2009 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Animal Crossing is essentially a game where you play as a "gatherer" who sells to the NPC, and it seems to do ok. I could see the same extending to crafting and still being successful. I don't think the exclusion or deemphasis of a playerbased market is necessarily a dealbreaker. It's not as if the market is a highly social element of the game when everything is filtered through an anonymous AH or afk bazaars anyway.
Agreed, "completely player based economy" is conceptually interesting, but meaningless in practice.
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#78 Oct 14 2009 at 10:50 PM Rating: Good
Gil Distribution in FFXIV:
lets begin with a recap of some economic laws:

MV = PY
(gil x velocity = price x real gdp [lets call this equipment)
All markets consist of supply and demand:
Supply short run: price = marginal cost + server fluctuation (weekends always more crafters, etc.).
Supply long run: price = marginal cost.
Demand short/long = f(consumers wants, and substitutes)

Then the application to ffxiv:

The gil distribution will be: f(labor + capital {better equipment, or ability} risk {unknown drops} + return on investments {crafting or similar investments})

This is how it will work in the end. We generally had a market economy (with some obvious price fixing in ffxi, some floors {NPC price}, and some caps {NPC Price}, but the auction house favored the skilled trader {farm or arbitrage the auction house}) in ffxi, and assuming they still know what they are doing, we will have something similar to this in ffxiv.

#79 Oct 15 2009 at 2:52 PM Rating: Default
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I think drops should already be tag with prices already on it instead of players creating there own value on how much the items should be. I play this little mmo call shaiya on the side and i kinda actually like the way they deal with item pricing, when items drop it already has a base price on it on how much it worth when u check it in your inventory box.

But on a different note, I use to think that mmo games were about having fun, getting together some time and having a good time by getting away from the headache of every day real life and just enjoy a game together, but it seem to me that real life seem to keep entering the game where you find inflation, recessions and bernie madoff players trying to make a extra buck on anything and everything. What ever happen to a game just being a game, instead i see ppl taunting other ppl simply cause they dont have the gear they have or the money they made. Is this what final fantasy has become a shallow imitation of life where not having the best stuff or having the most money make you inferior to the rest. Kinda make me feel sorry how ppl have been treated in all the years i had played in this game. I just hope se make the next installment with more equality, with items, armor, and gills funds. let a fun game become a game once again.


=/ just putting my thoughts out there sorry.
#80 Oct 16 2009 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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In a player run, or human controlled economy, no matter how much you analyze it or look at it from different angles, it's not going to be perfect, in fact it'll probably be far from it. Even worse in a fantasy based game with little to no real life consequences for taking risks and with less concern for the repercussions of your actions to others. Greed is and will always be there, and will fu#% things up. Look at the history of mankind itself. Greed isn't one of the seven deadly sins for nothing. Albeit, a player run economy is probably more fun than a totally non player run economy. Everyone has to make a profit, to make a living. We do it in real life all over the world.

There needs to be a system of checks and balances in place somehow, a balance or control between AI (npc) buying/selling on all things in game. But at what cost of fun factor? maybe a cap in a small range on how much certain things can be sold for? I don't know.

I kind of liked the idea from my previous post of only being able to purchase or use certain items upon reaching a certain level of such skill or w/e, and such items only be available to you once doing so. Because this would then encourage people to actually play the game to reach such specific levels. Items being Rare/Ex i think helps this too.

How crafters and RMT come into play though makes things more complicated because the end result of taking up a crafting class is to ultimately make profit of off what you craft. And the goal of RMT is to make money in game and from that in Real life.
Hence where greed comes in along with supply/demand and monopolizing from certain groups of certain rare items.

I am very curious to see how FFXIV economy will be set up and controlled.
I believe it will be similar in some regards but it has to also be different from FFXI - but in what aspects?
I think if it's exactly like FFXI then SE has simply just given up.
And they never seem to give up. I mean cmon we are discussing issues about the freaking 14th installment of a franchise here?


Edited, Oct 16th 2009 5:25pm by COGSs

Edited, Oct 16th 2009 5:26pm by COGSs
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