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so if the classes are based around weapons...Follow

#1 Oct 10 2009 at 11:42 AM Rating: Decent
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let's take a look at some classes they have yet to annouce based on on the weapons from FFXI

so far there's

Archer- Bow
Lancer- Polearm
Gladiator- Sword and shield
Marauder- Great Axe (possibly One Hand Axe?)
Pugilist- Fist Weapons

going by this we know classes are based on weapons so one could make some assumptions as to other possible classes like...

Gun - Gunner/Gunsmith
Scythe - Scythemen (best I could find)
Dagger - ?
Two Handed Sword - ?

I hesistated on putting up staff and club because the staff is used for a Disciple of magic class Thaumaturge which derives it's name based on it's magic rather than weapon, and the club I assume will also be used by a magic class. Also while it's always possible I'm thinking there might not classes based on katanas, great katanas, or instruments since those were very closly tied to a specific job but who knows, right?
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#2 Oct 10 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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When it's described like this though it seems like each class will only be able to have one weapon and I don't think that will be the case.

On the FFXIV website is says that Archer will also have a throwing skill. So if they equip a rock, boomerang or shuriken they won't transform to "Thrower", they will still be an Archer.

The cook could also use a frypan or a knife. Lancer can use a lance or javelin.

Since the classes fall under disciplines, I think it's possible that there may be a type of school system where you choose what weapon, magic, or trade you will specialize in as well as minor weapons and skills.
#3 Oct 10 2009 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
When it's described like this though it seems like each class will only be able to have one weapon and I don't think that will be the case.


The weapon Is the class, so yes.
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#4 Oct 10 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
When it's described like this though it seems like each class will only be able to have one weapon and I don't think that will be the case.

On the FFXIV website is says that Archer will also have a throwing skill. So if they equip a rock, boomerang or shuriken they won't transform to "Thrower", they will still be an Archer.

The cook could also use a frypan or a knife. Lancer can use a lance or javelin.

Since the classes fall under disciplines, I think it's possible that there may be a type of school system where you choose what weapon, magic, or trade you will specialize in as well as minor weapons and skills.


the rocks and javlins would most like be under what would be the equvialent of the ranged slot in FFXI. it's not used as a first-string weapon but rather udsed in special circumstances. I doubt Archers will be using rocks extensivly or Lancers relying on javlins for most of the battle. You do make an intresting point about the cook using both skillets and knives though the FFXIV website says it's primary "Tool of the Trade" is skillet. This could also be something like the disciple of magic where the classes are not nessicarily defined by their weapon of choice but the type of magic (or in this case disciple of hand is defined by craft). If you read Elmer's article on the Classless Class System you see that at least for the Disciple of War classes their name is dervied by what weapon they use.
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#5 Oct 10 2009 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
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scythe -> harvester ?

Quote:
Since the classes fall under disciplines, I think it's possible that there may be a type of school system where you choose what weapon, magic, or trade you will specialize in as well as minor weapons and skills.


i think SE said no skill tree
#6 Oct 10 2009 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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Considering the amount of whip posts during XI, you'd think that they'd add those to XIV if they wanted to pretend to have read the suggestion boards.
#7 Oct 10 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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ha ha whips would be awsome, I wonder if this could be a way to get in a pet class where you could use the whip on enmies and to control your pet to do commands, but the pets idea might be a bot of a stretch :P
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#8 Oct 10 2009 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
When it's described like this though it seems like each class will only be able to have one weapon and I don't think that will be the case.


The weapon Is the class, so yes.


Oh so you've already played the game? Some of the information we've gotten contradicts that idea.

I guess you didn't read the rest of my post either.
#9 Oct 10 2009 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh so you've already played the game? Some of the information we've gotten contradicts that idea.


Well, when the class names in the Japanese version basically translate to "sword-user", "lance-user", "hand-to-hand-user", "axe-user" etc. it's quite clear that those are the weapons they'll be using. Playing an "axe-user" and killing mobs with knife sounds a bit silly to me, frankly.

Like in FFXI things you could throw had a minor role as opposed to ranged weapons like bows and guns, so it wouldn't be surprising to see that SE would link those kind of weapons to Archer instead of making it a whole new class.

But no, I haven't played the game yet. I just think it feels dumb to be a sword-user and fight with a scythe or something, but I guess that could be just me. It's of course a different case with classes like Culinarists who can use two kind of weapons, but that class isn't restricted by it's name in Japanese anyway (it's not a "frypan-user"). So it might be possible with DoH to have more tools in your ********

Edited, Oct 10th 2009 11:18pm by Hyanmen
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#10 Oct 10 2009 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
When it's described like this though it seems like each class will only be able to have one weapon and I don't think that will be the case.

On the FFXIV website is says that Archer will also have a throwing skill. So if they equip a rock, boomerang or shuriken they won't transform to "Thrower", they will still be an Archer.

The cook could also use a frypan or a knife. Lancer can use a lance or javelin.

Since the classes fall under disciplines, I think it's possible that there may be a type of school system where you choose what weapon, magic, or trade you will specialize in as well as minor weapons and skills.


However it was stated that as soon as you switch weapons, you change your class meaning that the weapon is the class. I would also agree with the ranged weapons as being in a different slot similar to that of FFXI. They are probably just sub-weapons for those classes.

Also I don't think that there will be a particular school that you would have to stay in to learn more skills, rather just an upgrade in your weapon that allows you to do those particular skills since there are no skill trees.

These are just guesses based on the limited info they gave us ...so.. yeah =]
#11 Oct 10 2009 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Maximusdb wrote:
Quote:
When it's described like this though it seems like each class will only be able to have one weapon and I don't think that will be the case.

On the FFXIV website is says that Archer will also have a throwing skill. So if they equip a rock, boomerang or shuriken they won't transform to "Thrower", they will still be an Archer.

The cook could also use a frypan or a knife. Lancer can use a lance or javelin.

Since the classes fall under disciplines, I think it's possible that there may be a type of school system where you choose what weapon, magic, or trade you will specialize in as well as minor weapons and skills.


the rocks and javlins would most like be under what would be the equvialent of the ranged slot in FFXI. it's not used as a first-string weapon but rather udsed in special circumstances. I doubt Archers will be using rocks extensivly or Lancers relying on javlins for most of the battle. You do make an intresting point about the cook using both skillets and knives though the FFXIV website says it's primary "Tool of the Trade" is skillet. This could also be something like the disciple of magic where the classes are not nessicarily defined by their weapon of choice but the type of magic (or in this case disciple of hand is defined by craft). If you read Elmer's article on the Classless Class System you see that at least for the Disciple of War classes their name is dervied by what weapon they use.


I already read that article.
The thing is when people say the weapon is the class or there is no class; it seems you are a blank slate and when you use your bow you skil up. When you use sword you skill it up.

But Archery and Throwing seem completely unrelated. If you used your bow all the time where would the proficiency in throwing come from unless it was part of your class? I mean anyone could pick up a rock and throw it, why would this be something archer was good at?

It would have made more sense if they said they could also use a crossbow. I find it hard to believe crossbows wouldn't appear and if they do, using them would make you a seperate class.

They also mentioned one race being better at Long Bow and another at Short bow. Are these different weapons or just variations? There's gotta be a line somewhere.
#12 Oct 10 2009 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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scythe -> harvester ?


heh Harvester sounds more like a disciple of Land class which would probably use a sicle as it's primary tool like in FF XI. I choose Scythemen because in look up on scythes and who used them primarily scythemen was the best I could find and War Scythes were more comonly used in battle which are share a similarity to spears who are used by pikemen and spearmen.
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#13 Oct 10 2009 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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The way I understood it is that the Archer would start throwing rocks when he/she ran out of arrows.

I'm under the impression that your usable abilities are chosen based on the weapon equiped. Maybe for instance if you're equiping a one handed sword you can use red lotus blade and if you equip a sheild on your free hand you can use sheild bash. I havn't heard about any type of sub job/class system yet though so it's still a possibility that we'll be able to equip some abilities that we've learned with other weapons.
#14 Oct 10 2009 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I already read that article.
The thing is when people say the weapon is the class or there is no class; it seems you are a blank slate and when you use your bow you skil up. When you use sword you skill it up.


I'd agree with you here, equping the specific weapon changing you class which you are then able skill up in the same catagory of the wepon your using.

Quote:
But Archery and Throwing seem completely unrelated. If you used your bow all the time where would the proficiency in throwing come from unless it was part of your class? I mean anyone could pick up a rock and throw it, why would this be something archer was good at?


Personally, I'd agree with you on this point, with SE trying to show each of the classes is being defined by a weapon. Saying that they can use something else to inflict damage as well doesn't help in unifying the central idea of the armory system. BUT, SE explains that in information about Archers that they use stones from a far range much like a bow and they also explain that they use it once the archer ones out of arrows indicating that this is probably a back up for archers if they happen to be out in the world and they run out of arrows, if they didn't give them something to use besides arrows the Archer would be dead pretty soon once they ran out of arrows ( assuming that archers can aquire stones somehow through a technique or skill of some-sort.

Quote:
It would have made more sense if they said they could also use a crossbow. I find it hard to believe crossbows wouldn't appear and if they do, using them would make you a seperate class.

They also mentioned one race being better at Long Bow and another at Short bow. Are these different weapons or just variations? There's gotta be a line


Most of this unecertainty is due to lack of information from SE so far so we can only speculate as to the specifics for now. I would say to take a look at how the weapons in FF XI are classified to get an idea as to if a certain weapon should be a class of it's own since it seems Weapon Skills are making a comeback and it looks like we're getting some of the same ones for our weapons. (don't hold this agaisnt me I'm just going out on alimb here as there has been no info about this yet)

Edited, Oct 10th 2009 8:06pm by Maximusdb
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#15 Oct 10 2009 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with a lot of what you have to say Maximusdb. However, I think a lot of people are getting to caught up with the phrase: classless class. I am pretty sure the major point of that article was to say that we will have very customizable classes. That being said, you skill up a weapon and get everything from stats to traits to spells to abilities, etc. I remember people hatching theories on this forum about equiping/learning job abilities with armor. I have not seen any information that has even hinted at that. If there is please, show me a source.

I think a more simple solution is the answer. Outside of weapons and weapon skills, what we learn from one job we can apply to another. They even gave an example in one interview that said something to the affect: A (specified class) could import an ability like steal (I think, might have been another ability) even though that ability was not native to it. The way it was worded, implied that classes will have abilities specific to them. Also, it sounds more SEish to make you level a job all the way to cap, if you want to use its highest level ability. Getting Gladiator to cap, then equiping a piece of armor that gives you or lets you learn another class' highest ability sounds way too easy. As for limitations, probably something similar to blue mages point system or maybe a limited but specific amount of abilities/spells in terms of limiting the amount of imported abilities you can use at one time. In terms of effectiveness, I am sure they will include some form of limitation such as maybe half-powered abilities, or twice the ability points (the ability meter in the playable demo) more than if you were using it on its native class.

I have not played the game, so I do not know 100% what the final product will be like. I just think this is a more straight-forward yet still challenging approach to the "subjob" system. That and the only things mentioned about armor that I am aware of are that it can be crafted, needs repairing, supposedly will be lots and lots of it, and there will be two basic types: all purpose and class specific. One reason they mentioned for all purpose armor was to be able to switch between classes a lot with out having to worry about changing armor constantly. Not only is that a nice idea, because of the lack of stress on the player. But it also goes against the idea of equiping armor to learn or set abilities. People would end up skilling up a class but not learning any abilities or have to go back and learn some. Or worse yet you cloud just go buy armor with a high level ability from another job and equip it to use it. Anyways, my two gil.



Edited, Oct 10th 2009 10:40pm by AmsaimSutavarg
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#16 Oct 10 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
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Oh so you've already played the game? Some of the information we've gotten contradicts that idea.


Well, when the class names in the Japanese version basically translate to "sword-user", "lance-user", "hand-to-hand-user", "axe-user" etc. it's quite clear that those are the weapons they'll be using. Playing an "axe-user" and killing mobs with knife sounds a bit silly to me, frankly.

Like in FFXI things you could throw had a minor role as opposed to ranged weapons like bows and guns, so it wouldn't be surprising to see that SE would link those kind of weapons to Archer instead of making it a whole new class.

But no, I haven't played the game yet. I just think it feels dumb to be a sword-user and fight with a scythe or something, but I guess that could be just me. It's of course a different case with classes like Culinarists who can use two kind of weapons, but that class isn't restricted by it's name in Japanese anyway (it's not a "frypan-user"). So it might be possible with DoH to have more tools in your ********

Edited, Oct 10th 2009 11:18pm by Hyanmen


I guess I find it alittle odd that in a game that they have said will be more customizeable and break away from cookie cutters, you are only allowed to use one weapon per class.

Just think about playing archer solo. You wouldn't have any melee weapons to equip because they belong to another class and you can't change weapons mid battle. You would have to kite everything. It sounds like we will have less options than in XI but I guess we still need more info.

#17 Oct 10 2009 at 11:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with a lot of what you have to say Maximusdb. However, I think a lot of people are getting to caught up with the phrase: classless class. I am pretty sure the major point of that article was to say that we will have very customizable classes. That being said, you skill up a weapon and get everything from stats to traits to spells to abilities, etc. I remember people hatching theories on this forum about equiping/learning job abilities with armor. I have not seen any information that has even hinted at that. If there is please, show me a source.

I think a more simple solution is the answer. Outside of weapons and weapon skills, what we learn from one job we can apply to another. They even gave an example in one interview that said something to the affect: A (specified class) could import an ability like steal (I think, might have been another ability) even though that ability was not native to it. The way it was worded, implied that classes will have abilities specific to them. Also, it sounds more SEish to make you level a job all the way to cap, if you want to use its highest level ability. Getting Gladiator to cap, then equiping a piece of armor that gives you or lets you learn another class' highest ability sounds way too easy. As for limitations, probably something similar to blue mages point system or maybe a limited but specific amount of abilities/spells in terms of limiting the amount of imported abilities you can use at one time. In terms of effectiveness, I am sure they will include some form of limitation such as maybe half-powered abilities, or twice the ability points (the ability meter in the playable demo) more than if you were using it on its native class.

I have not played the game, so I do not know 100% what the final product will be like. I just think this is a more straight-forward yet still challenging approach to the "subjob" system. That and the only things mentioned about armor that I am aware of are that it can be crafted, needs repairing, supposedly will be lots and lots of it, and there will be two basic types: all purpose and class specific. One reason they mentioned for all purpose armor was to be able to switch between classes a lot with out having to worry about changing armor constantly. Not only is that a nice idea, because of the lack of stress on the player. But it also goes against the idea of equiping armor to learn or set abilities. People would end up skilling up a class but not learning any abilities or have to go back and learn some. Or worse yet you cloud just go buy armor with a high level ability from another job and equip it to use it. Anyways, my two gil.


Once I read your post I went out to find the post on armor having abilities...and found no concrete evidence. I suppose I mis-interprited the meaning of a stament or possibly took all the talk of abilities coming from armor as something that was stated as part of the game the closest I came to finding evidence was in the same article you mentioned about being able to use abilities cross-class (which I would hope they would have as well or I wouldn't think of it as an improvement over the job system of FF XI as welll) here's the link to the article here on Zam and here's th section. I've bold'd the intresting part to take notice of.

Quote:
While some abilities will be linked to weapons, there is a possibility that certain abilities will be usable across multiple classes. Komoto referenced the way in which FFXI allows players to use sub-jobs to access skills learned from different jobs. This will make its way into FFXIV, but in a different form. A character using an axe may still have access to magic, but it may not be as effective in battle as using the axe. As an example, Komoto says a Marauder may be able to use Steal, an ability not native to the class, but the success rate would be lower than normal.


as for equipment I think your talking about this article. here's the specific part about equipment:

Quote:
What's my Motivation?

The developers restate that the major concept behind the game is "growth" - the freedom to grow your character in any way you choose and the chance to enjoy the process instead of sink into a routine of endless grinding. For players who seek shiny loot, the amount and variety of equipment is set to be increased by leaps and bounds above Final Fantasy XI. There will also be unique pieces of equipment obtainable through participation in special events. Perhaps this is hinting at something akin to holiday events or special BCs?

Since levels are out the window, gear will now be equippable based on skill. When you switch your weapon, your skill in that weapon, as well as your class, will determine what equipment you can wear. For those looking for some light action and plan to change classes a lot, there will also be some generic gear available that is wearable by all classes.


They don't nessiarily say equipment based on class ( it could be type of equipment like leather, cloth or plated) but thats very unclear. Still it you make good points and I can see easily this going agiant my theory (which I guess I'll have to make some adjustments then) It's quiet intresting going through all the articles again and just seeing how many times people ask about the armory system and disciples with Se either giving no comment or glossing over the finer details. I suppose these parts are the things they're still working on designing.

edit- ack forgot to put in the first link, sorry! :S

Edited, Oct 11th 2009 4:08am by Maximusdb
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#18 Oct 10 2009 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
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oh I also couldn't find any info on stats being implimented in the game. It seems that skill levels will be what determines those sorts of things. Can anyone find anything about if stats are in the game? It almost seems silly to ask such a question like that about an MMO but with the description Se talks about, it seems like there is no need for stats.
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#19 Oct 10 2009 at 11:52 PM Rating: Default
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You people do realize that Square still uses the archaic business practice of being purposely vague in order to pique curiosity in it's fanbase, right? Reading too deeply into anything they say is only setting yourselves up for disappointment.

It wouldn't surprise me for an instant if you were locked into a limited amount of abilities based on your weapon of choice, followed by a small pool of points (akin to merit points) that can be used to transfer weakened versions of abilities you've leveled into from the use of other weapons.

****, considering the Enix side of the equation, it also wouldn't surprise me if you were completely locked into a weapon's "job," until you level it to X, at which point you switch to level another weapon's "job," and use the combination of jobs to unlock different jobs, similar to Dragon Quest IX.

While it would certainly be refreshing and nice to have a truly open ended customization scheme in place for character development, I highly doubt that will be the case.

Edited, Oct 11th 2009 3:53am by lolgaxe
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#20 Oct 11 2009 at 12:14 AM Rating: Decent
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I hear yea I know most people have been burned by game developers who promise the world to ya but give you something far less supior (I'm looking at you Fable - .-) I'm sure some time long after XIV comes out someone will manage to find all these old postings of our crazy thoughs about how the game worked and how it ended up being really implimentd and have a good laugh. Speaking of which we should look at that kinda of stuff for FF XI I'm sure they had some crazy stuff back then.
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#21 Oct 11 2009 at 12:24 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for posting the sections of the articles I was talking about Maximusdb. It really will be interesting to see how all of this stuff unfolds. Beta can't come fast enough. ****, I really don't even want to play the beta. I just want to read posts about what all people find out about the game. Oh well.

@ lolgaxe: Yea bro, I hear ya. I know SE has beautiful business and marketing techniques <nudge nudge wink wink>. So while I do speculate, I don't take it overly serious. They did state that nothing was set in stone. That is their ace in the hole. Their get out of jail card. So if anything they said was going to be in the game, does not actually end up being in it, they can pull that card out of their ***. Nice huh?
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#22 Oct 11 2009 at 1:22 AM Rating: Decent
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You people do realize that Square still uses the archaic business practice of being purposely vague in order to pique curiosity in it's fanbase, right? Reading too deeply into anything they say is only setting yourselves up for disappointment.


Yeah, **** them to **** for not using the 'modern' business practice where the developers promise features to the game that will never be implemented, announce their games way too early in the development process and overhype the game for years to never meet the expectations of players.
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#23 Oct 11 2009 at 1:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
You people do realize that Square still uses the archaic business practice of being purposely vague in order to pique curiosity in it's fanbase, right? Reading too deeply into anything they say is only setting yourselves up for disappointment.


Yeah, **** them to **** for not using the 'modern' business practice where the developers promise features to the game that will never be implemented, announce their games way too early in the development process and overhype the game for years to never meet the expectations of players.


D3 and Starcraft 2 are coming out any time now, amirite?
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#24 Oct 11 2009 at 1:48 AM Rating: Default
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D3 and Starcraft 2 are coming out any time now, amirite?


From the looks of it those 2 games are quite successful at this business practice. Let's see if Blizzard will be as successful with the marketing of Universe of Starcraft, too. MMO != single/multiplayer game.


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#25 Oct 11 2009 at 3:59 AM Rating: Good
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Veidt wrote:

I already read that article.
The thing is when people say the weapon is the class or there is no class; it seems you are a blank slate and when you use your bow you skil up. When you use sword you skill it up.

But Archery and Throwing seem completely unrelated. If you used your bow all the time where would the proficiency in throwing come from unless it was part of your class? I mean anyone could pick up a rock and throw it, why would this be something archer was good at?

It would have made more sense if they said they could also use a crossbow. I find it hard to believe crossbows wouldn't appear and if they do, using them would make you a seperate class.

They also mentioned one race being better at Long Bow and another at Short bow. Are these different weapons or just variations? There's gotta be a line somewhere.



I was thinking that, too. But then they mentioned something about how when you change your "class" your skill set changes as well.
I think this is going to just be one of those things that no one is going to be able to fully grasp until we all see it in person.
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