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Weapons-Classes Cont.Follow

#1 Oct 10 2009 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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The developers have said that the new armory system of FFXIV will emphasize more on the weapons one wields rather than the class one chooses; much like in FF XI. Taking that into account I thought of making a list of the weapons, magic, and abilities we have seen in the past and hopefully we’ll see in the future of FF XIV. I have also linked the items to the jobs that are associated with them since I think that will make it easier to infer the abilities we might expect to acquire.



Final Fantasy Weapons

Bows & Crossbows- Archer / Ranger
Axe- Beastmaster / Berserker/ Viking
Club- White Mage
Dagger- Thief / Dancer / Chemist
Great Axe- Warrior / Dark Knight/ Dragoon/ Viking
Great Katana- Samurai
Great Sword- Dark Knight / Paladin
Hand-to-Hand- Monk / Puppetmaster
Katana- Ninja
Pistols & Rifles- Ranger / Corsair / Chemist / Gunner
Polearms- Dragoon
Scythe- Dark Knight
Staff- White /Black /Summon /Red Mage
Rods- Black Mage / Summoner / Time Mage
Sword- Paladin / Knight
Kilij – Blue Mage
Cannons- Cannoneer
Poles- Geomancer / Dancer / Monk
Measures- Calculator
Instruments- Bard
Books- Scholar / Calculator / Illusionist
Hammers- Geomancer? / Green Mage/ Viking
Rapier- Fencer / Red Mage / Spellblade
Bell- Geomancer/ Beastmaster
Whips- Beast Master/ Geomancer
Cloths- Dancer
Flail- Ninja/Chemist/Squire/Geomancer
Gunblades- Squall/Lightning

Final Fantasy Magic/Skills

Healing Magic- White Mage / Paladin / Red Mage
Elemental Magic- Black Mage / Red Mage / Dark Knight
Geomancy- Geomancer / Elementalist
Enemy Magic- Blue Mage
Enfeebling Magic- Green Mage / Red Mage
Summoning- Summoner
Time Magic- Time Mage
Arcane Magic- Dark Knight / Arcanist
Song- Bard
Dance- Dancer
Ninjutsu- Ninja
Necromancy/pet class- Summoner/Puppetmaster/ Beastmaster/ Morpher/ Necromancer?
Mime- Mime

I’m sure I missed some so please be sure to post them so that the list becomes more interesting as to speculate what we might find in FF XIV’s new and exciting Armory System.


Edited, Oct 11th 2009 2:23am by MortEpee

Edited, Oct 11th 2009 3:50am by MortEpee

Edited, Oct 11th 2009 4:02am by MortEpee

Edited, Oct 11th 2009 4:03am by MortEpee

Edited, Oct 11th 2009 2:37pm by MortEpee

Edited, Oct 11th 2009 4:06pm by MortEpee

Edited, Oct 15th 2009 2:26am by MortEpee
#2 Oct 10 2009 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Geomancers originally used bells as weapons.

Which was awesome.
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#3 Oct 10 2009 at 10:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Geomancers originally used bells as weapons.


Didn't Beastmasters use them as well? In FFTA. Kinda tired and can't remember when that game came out but I think Beastmasters originally used bells as well. Non-FFXI Beastmasters that is ^~^.
#4 Oct 10 2009 at 11:36 PM Rating: Decent
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They originally used whips, but I think they did use Bells in FFTA (though I'm really not a huge fan of that series). Speaking of Whips, Geomancers also used those in FFT I think. Actually, the list is missing a number of flails. Morning stars, for example. I think nunchuka may have played some small roles. There were also the cloths that dancers used. Oh yeah, almost forgot lolpurses.

Also, add Vikings to the list of jobs that used axes and hammers.

You could also add necromancy to the magic list (lamia and pirates in FFXI are necromancers). There were a number of additional magic sets in FFT at least, like Yin Yang Magic. Then there are less easily defined classes like Mediators and Mimes.

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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#5 Oct 10 2009 at 11:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Which Final Fantasy are you basing this off, or are you trying to encompass the entire franchise? If that is the case, you need to add Warrior to like 90% of the weapons, and Dragoon to Great Axes, at the very least.
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#6 Oct 10 2009 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank You all for your contributions!

I am trying to encompass the entire FF universe but I'm categorizing the jobs related to the weapons based on the weapon they are most commonly known for. Some FF games didnt have defined jobs and characters could use any weapons that's why I didnt add warrior to every weapon.

I think the Ying Yang Magic is what we now know as green magic/enfeebling magic so I didnt list it; as well as Mediators which I think could be compared to beastmasters.

Purses... meh i don't know what class to assign to that since they were female exclusive and not related to a job :/

I will add whips, necromancy and vikings to the list.

Thanks again!

Edited, Oct 11th 2009 3:52am by MortEpee
#7 Oct 11 2009 at 6:48 AM Rating: Decent
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There were a number of jobs in FFX-2 that I can't remember... I think one was a type of Animist? I forget. I do miss the Arcane magic, one of the few things I liked.
#8 Oct 11 2009 at 7:22 AM Rating: Decent
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A Mediator wasn't really a Beastmaster. That was just one of the things they could do. They also used their rhetorical skills to inflict several other effects. Just an fyi though, I don't care if you add it.

But you better add Mime to that list. So help me! Mime!

FFTA really complicates things because there are so many mishmash jobs that are stylistically different but don't have new/unique party roles.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#9 Oct 11 2009 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok I'll add Mime XD Tho they didnt use any weapons or had abilities other than repeating the last action but I can see how people would like to see the job again in some form. Has it ever been used in a game other than in FFT?
#10 Oct 11 2009 at 11:20 AM Rating: Default
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MortEpee wrote:
Ok I'll add Mime XD Tho they didnt use any weapons or had abilities other than repeating the last action but I can see how people would like to see the job again in some form. Has it ever been used in a game other than in FFT?


PUP is actually pretty close to a Mime incarnation in FFXI. You can set up the puppet to mimic certain party roles (white mage, black mage, red mage, melee DD, ranged DD), and the Attatchments for the automaton all mimic JAs and spells from other jobs in the game (Flash, Shield Bash, Spike spells, En spells, Convert, Refresh, Regen, Haste, Berserk, Aggressor, Blink, Provoke, Store TP, Stoneskin, Double Attack, Erase, Conserve MP, Blood Weapon, Mighty Strikes.



As far as weapons go, I noticed you seperated Swords from Rapiers. However, I think you could further seperate other weapon classes as well, especially daggers into Dagger, Knife, Kukri, just to name a few. H2H could be split into Claws, Cesti, Knuckles, Hooks, etc. Rifles and Pistols could differentiate the Gun category. I didn't notice crossbows anywhere either.


Also, the magic category seems a bit redundant in its wording. Lol, yes Black Magic is used by Black Mages, but then you ran into the problem where you had to describe why you left out Yin-Yang magic. I think it might be easier if you had Healing Magic - White Mage, Elemental Attack Magic - Black Mage, Status Effect Magic - Green Mage. Also, I'm not sure what you're thinking of as "Red Magic", as far as I know, anything included in the category was just a mish-mash of low level white and black magic spells.
#11 Oct 11 2009 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I see what you are saying CireXF of Nebraska. As a PUP in FFXI your comment on it being like a mime incarnation is very useful and I agree to a certain point.

I separated swords from rapiers because the jobs linked to rapiers (RDM, Fencer, and Spellblade) are generally recognized by using such weapon. In the case of daggers and H2H I could list more types of the same weapon, in fact I could list many more for other weapons too, however I concentrated in the function of the weapon rather than its many variations. In the case of the sword/rapier these weapons are used differently and we have seen them used by different jobs. Characters that use H2H, for example, have been able to use bare hands, claws, cesti, etc. instead of just been able to use one of them exclusively.

When I created the bow section i meant it to encompass crossbows but I will add it for clarity.
You are also right about the magic section I will change it so it doesnt sound so redundant. As far as Red Magic goes I thought of it in the exact same way you have described it:"a mish-mash of low level white and black magic spells" (and I'd add enfeebling too).
#12 Oct 11 2009 at 10:57 PM Rating: Default
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MortEpee wrote:
I see what you are saying CireXF of Nebraska. As a PUP in FFXI your comment on it being like a mime incarnation is very useful and I agree to a certain point.

I separated swords from rapiers because the jobs linked to rapiers (RDM, Fencer, and Spellblade) are generally recognized by using such weapon. In the case of daggers and H2H I could list more types of the same weapon, in fact I could list many more for other weapons too, however I concentrated in the function of the weapon rather than its many variations. In the case of the sword/rapier these weapons are used differently and we have seen them used by different jobs. Characters that use H2H, for example, have been able to use bare hands, claws, cesti, etc. instead of just been able to use one of them exclusively.


The only reason why I brought up seperate weapons is because in XI, some jobs may share the same weapon skill, but are only able to use different varieties of the weapon. Like you, I'm trying to envision different weapons that could grant access to different abilities.

Like Blue Mages and Red Mages use different swords, which you seperated out in the above. Red Mages are also able to use daggers - they have dagger skill- but are unable to use the Knife and Kukri varieties of Daggers like THF and DNC are able to. Perhaps in XIV, SE would perhaps grant THF like abilities if you are wielding a Knife, and DNC-like abilities if one is wielding a Kukri.

Similarly, PUP is unable to use Knuckle or Cesti type H2H weapons, while MNK is unable to utilize any of the H2H weapons that deal status effects.

As far as guns, I only recall Chemists using pistols, so perhaps that could be the weapon to access CHM abilities while a Rifle or whatever would grant access to more pure DD functionality.
#13 Oct 12 2009 at 1:07 AM Rating: Good
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It's also possible that weapons aren't that strict on class definitions as we think.

For instance, it could be that weapons have class requirements to unlock their own class.

Rusty Sword
Requirements: none
Grants Class: Gladiator (WAR)

Maple Staff
Requirements: none
Grants Class: Thaumaturge (WHM)

Oak Wand
Requirements: none
Grants Class: Conjurer (BLM)

Crusader's Sword
Requirements: Gladiator(30), Thaumaturge(30)
Grants Class: Crusader (PLD)

Fencing Sword
Requirements: Gladiator(20), Thaumaturge(20), Conjurer (20)
Grants Class: Fencer (RDM)

The higher level a class is, the better the weapons that can be used:
Excalibur
Requirements: Crusader(60)
Grants Class: Crusader

Joyeuse
Requirements: Fencer(60)
Grants Class: Fencer

It's also possible that you need to unlock certain weapon levels to be able to do a quest to unlock a different weapon use. So the Fencing Sword above would require Fencer(1), but you can unlock Fencer by getting Gladiator, Conjurer and Thaumaturge to level 20 then do the quest.

Edited, Oct 12th 2009 11:10am by Seedling
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#14 Oct 12 2009 at 5:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ok I'll add Mime XD Tho they didnt use any weapons or had abilities other than repeating the last action but I can see how people would like to see the job again in some form. Has it ever been used in a game other than in FFT?


Mimes were in V, VI (Gogo), and as a materia in VII. Maybe some others, but you get the idea. It's a pretty standard conceptual staple. I would have killed for Mime in XI, and even came up with a really great, workable design (came up with another one for a job that specializes in spirits/possessions, too). I don't view PUP as anything like Mime aside from some stylistic similarities (motley clothing, based on an entertainer).
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 Oct 12 2009 at 7:11 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Ok I'll add Mime XD Tho they didnt use any weapons or had abilities other than repeating the last action but I can see how people would like to see the job again in some form. Has it ever been used in a game other than in FFT?


Mimes were in V, VI (Gogo), and as a materia in VII. Maybe some others, but you get the idea. It's a pretty standard conceptual staple. I would have killed for Mime in XI, and even came up with a really great, workable design (came up with another one for a job that specializes in spirits/possessions, too). I don't view PUP as anything like Mime aside from some stylistic similarities (motley clothing, based on an entertainer).


While I'm not trying to declare PUP = Mime, I do think that it's similar enough to be an incarnation. It's at least as similar to Mime as COR is to a Gambler. I don't know how the fact that PUP can "mimic" nearly every JA in the game can be ignored when trying to draw job comparisons.
#16 Oct 12 2009 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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Seedling wrote:
It's also possible that weapons aren't that strict on class definitions as we think.

For instance, it could be that weapons have class requirements to unlock their own class.

Rusty Sword
Requirements: none
Grants Class: Gladiator (WAR)

Maple Staff
Requirements: none
Grants Class: Thaumaturge (WHM)

Oak Wand
Requirements: none
Grants Class: Conjurer (BLM)

Crusader's Sword
Requirements: Gladiator(30), Thaumaturge(30)
Grants Class: Crusader (PLD)

Fencing Sword
Requirements: Gladiator(20), Thaumaturge(20), Conjurer (20)
Grants Class: Fencer (RDM)

The higher level a class is, the better the weapons that can be used:
Excalibur
Requirements: Crusader(60)
Grants Class: Crusader

Joyeuse
Requirements: Fencer(60)
Grants Class: Fencer

It's also possible that you need to unlock certain weapon levels to be able to do a quest to unlock a different weapon use. So the Fencing Sword above would require Fencer(1), but you can unlock Fencer by getting Gladiator, Conjurer and Thaumaturge to level 20 then do the quest.

Edited, Oct 12th 2009 11:10am by Seedling


I like the idea of this, but to me how they said the direction of the armory system is, it sounds more like it would be skills/abilities/spells that would be unlocked as opposed to a "class". From what they have said in their interviews its your skills that determine your role but you don't really have a class/job name to distinguish yourself based off your skills (if I worded that right), although you could technically call yourself whatever the **** you want.
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#17 Oct 12 2009 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I do think that it's similar enough to be an incarnation. It's at least as similar to Mime as COR is to a Gambler. I don't know how the fact that PUP can "mimic" nearly every JA in the game can be ignored when trying to draw job comparisons.


I'm going to have to strongly disagree with that. COR is very similar to Gambler, and not just spiritually. They freaking use card-based abilities, and are pretty clearly based on Setzer, who was not just a gambler, but essentially an air pirate.

The ties between PUP and Mime are a lot more tenuous. Mimes copy what their party members do. PUPs are more like Engineers if anything. If the puppet specifically mimicked party members, I'd agree, but it doesn't. It just does what you equip it to do. If it weren't for the stylistically similar clothes, I'd say there wasn't even a spiritual connection (and even what little there is pushes it... in FFT, for example, Mimes wore animal costumes).

Nah, I wanted PUP to be even a little like Mime, but I just don't see it. They're fundamentally different. You might as well say that RDM is like Mime on that basis.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#18 Oct 13 2009 at 1:13 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
I do think that it's similar enough to be an incarnation. It's at least as similar to Mime as COR is to a Gambler. I don't know how the fact that PUP can "mimic" nearly every JA in the game can be ignored when trying to draw job comparisons.


I'm going to have to strongly disagree with that. COR is very similar to Gambler, and not just spiritually. They freaking use card-based abilities, and are pretty clearly based on Setzer, who was not just a gambler, but essentially an air pirate.


Hmmm . . . perhaps you could point out where Setzer's random abilities buffed party members?

Perhaps you could point out where Setzer used guns?

Perhaps you could point out where Setzer could strengthen enfeebles currently on the mob?



Stylistically, COR and Gambler are very similar. Functionally, they have huge differences.

Kachi wrote:
The ties between PUP and Mime are a lot more tenuous. Mimes copy what their party members do. PUPs are more like Engineers if anything. If the puppet specifically mimicked party members, I'd agree, but it doesn't. It just does what you equip it to do.


That's funny, because I can equip my puppet to cast healing spells on the party and function like a WHM.

I can equip my puppet to cast incredibly strong elemental magic on the enemy and function like a BLM.

I can equip my puppet to gain tp quickly and attempt to SC like SAM

I can equip my puppet to enfeeble and melee with enspells while converting its hp into mp just like a RDM.

I can equip my puppet to withstand severe physical dmg and deal out Shield Bashes and Flash the enemy just like a PLD.

I can equip my puppet to do massive ranged physical dmg like a RNG.

I can equip my puppet to use shadows and have really high evasion like NIN.

I can equip my puppet to provoke and double attack like WAR.

I can equip my puppet use attacks to absorb as much HP as dmg it dealt, just like DRK.


Gee, there sure are an awful lot of jobs I can equip my puppet into mimicing . . .

Quote:
If it weren't for the stylistically similar clothes, I'd say there wasn't even a spiritual connection (and even what little there is pushes it... in FFT, for example, Mimes wore animal costumes).

Nah, I wanted PUP to be even a little like Mime, but I just don't see it. They're fundamentally different. You might as well say that RDM is like Mime on that basis.



Just what are you basing this "fundamental" difference on? The fact that PUP doesn't have a "Mimic" command in their JA menu? Come on. Seriously, how could Mime possibly be balanced in an MMO with something like that?

Mime mimics only party members.
PUP can mimic any job, but only certain aspects of each job.

I would totally agree that PUP would be better described as an Engineer/Mime hybrid because, yes, they do use equippable "tools" to do their mimicry. I just don't understand how you can't see the mimicry for what it is.
#19 Oct 13 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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Setzer is obviously a Samurai (coin toss)

SAM/DNC must also be a mime, b/c it can do most of that stuff too!
And BLU
and RDM




hybrid class != mime

"mimes" in every other FF are defined by only being able to copy actions performed by the party before them. Having a wide variety of options to choose from isn't the same thing at all.
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#20 Oct 13 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Default
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shintasama wrote:
Setzer is obviously a Samurai (coin toss)

SAM/DNC must also be a mime, b/c it can do most of that stuff too!
And BLU
and RDM




hybrid class != mime

"mimes" in every other FF are defined by only being able to copy actions performed by the party before them. Having a wide variety of options to choose from isn't the same thing at all.


First of all, counting subjobs is ridiculous because it's literally using a 2nd job, not mimicing abilities of another job. SAM/DNC is a SAM that has access to DNC abilities. PUP gets access to all of these abilities from other jobs naturally. They don't have to sub a particular job to use abilities from it.

Second, point out where SAM/DNC can cast nukes or Paralyze, Dia, Slow, Flash, Shieldbash, etc . . .



Again, I'm not saying that PUP is 100% Mime- I'm just saying that it's function is similar enough to be considered an incarnation of Mime in FFXI. I've already pointed out how PUP is more similar to the function of the traditional Mime that COR's functionality is to a traditional Gambler. Jesus, can we get back to the original topic, please?

Edited, Oct 13th 2009 8:30pm by CireXF
#21 Oct 14 2009 at 3:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Hmmm . . . perhaps you could point out where Setzer's random abilities buffed party members?

Perhaps you could point out where Setzer used guns?

Perhaps you could point out where Setzer could strengthen enfeebles currently on the mob?

Stylistically, COR and Gambler are very similar. Functionally, they have huge differences.


Setzer's slots did have random effects that could heal the party of HP/status, and could randomly summon espers that could cast buffs. Is it exactly the same? No, but I'm sure a part of the design decision was in creating a job that filled a needed role. The game didn't need more damage dealing jobs, but it suffered from a lack of support roles.

Setzer didn't use guns, but he did use Cards.

Of course the functions are very different. We're comparing a character in a single offline RPG from over a decade ago to a job added late in the development of an MMO. I'm only noting the stylistic similarities-- Setzer has been traditionally considered a "gambler," and what job is like a gambler? Probably the one that uses cards and essentially requires one to try their luck at Blackjack to be effective.

As for PUP, you're not convincing me. A hybrid is not a Mime. You can perform a single role any time you want to. A Mime can only perform the roles of members in the party. A Mime is not necessarily a hybrid job, a PUP is. Mimes can't melee like PUPs, either. A Mime can be like 5 jobs at one time-- it doesn't change equipment to change its role, but party members. And a Mime can't change their role like a PUP can. A Mime's role is pretty much fixed based on what's in the party, whereas a PUP can act independently of the party.

I really don't think there's anything particularly Mime-like about PUP. They are completely different jobs with only very small stylistic similarities. Functionally there is a big difference between being a jack-of-all-trades-that-are-present-in-the-current-party, and someone who can change to any role they want to.

As for how to make a balanced Mime, I'm not going to post the entirety of my design, but the strengths it possesses are offset primarily by having very low stats and no access to a subjob while in a party.

I don't know that there's much to add to the original topic. These kinds of threads have been around for a long time, and they usually all end up pretty much the same way. Because people are becoming increasingly knowledgeable about FF lore the lists are easy to fill out pretty quickly.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#22 Oct 14 2009 at 3:16 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Hmmm . . . perhaps you could point out where Setzer's random abilities buffed party members?

Perhaps you could point out where Setzer used guns?

Perhaps you could point out where Setzer could strengthen enfeebles currently on the mob?

Stylistically, COR and Gambler are very similar. Functionally, they have huge differences.


Setzer's slots did have random effects that could heal the party of HP/status, and could randomly summon espers that could cast buffs. Is it exactly the same? No, but I'm sure a part of the design decision was in creating a job that filled a needed role. The game didn't need more damage dealing jobs, but it suffered from a lack of support roles.

Setzer didn't use guns, but he did use Cards.

Of course the functions are very different. We're comparing a character in a single offline RPG from over a decade ago to a job added late in the development of an MMO. I'm only noting the stylistic similarities-- Setzer has been traditionally considered a "gambler," and what job is like a gambler? Probably the one that uses cards and essentially requires one to try their luck at Blackjack to be effective.


I'm baffled how you can accept how aspects of Setzer's Gambler were adapted into how COR currently functions, but continue to be willfully blind to the parallels between PUP and Mime.

Sure, I totally see how Setzer and COR are related, even though it's not a direct 100% translation.

Guess what? I'm not claiming PUP is a 100% Mime translation either!

Quote:
As for PUP, you're not convincing me. A hybrid is not a Mime. You can perform a single role any time you want to. A Mime can only perform the roles of members in the party.


Please point out why an alternate Mime incarnation couldn't copy available jobs.

Quote:
A Mime is not necessarily a hybrid job, a PUP is.


A) The whole point to every Mime I've ever played in a Final Fantasy game was to gather together varied abilities to one character. Like with Gogo, I could use Magic, Tools, AND Blitzes! If that's not being hybrid, I don't know what is. Plus, you could mime attack actions of your allies, you could mime defensive actions, and you could mime healing actions. How is the capacity to do all those not count as Hybrid?

B) PUP frequently specializes. In fact, that's the most effective way to play the job. In situations where the BLM puppet shines, the master's physical dmg is typcially useless. In situations where you need a physical DD puppet, the master is going to be up fighting right along with it. There are only a couple examples of situations where the master and the puppet have different focuses.

Regardless, PUP is free to specialize or hybridize as it sees fit. Perhaps if you actually played the job you would understand how it works.

Quote:
Mimes can't melee like PUPs, either.


And Setzer can't shoot guns like COR can, yet they're still considered incarnations of the same job, right?

Edit: Furthermore, after looking up the FFT version of Mime, it appears that one of their innate abilities is Brawler, which increases abilities of H2H fighting. So right there you're wrong- even the one Mime incarnation you're basing your stance off of specializes in H2H fighting, just like PUP does.

Quote:
A Mime can be like 5 jobs at one time-- it doesn't change equipment to change its role, but party members.


I really don't understand why you're being so closed minded about this. Gogo wasn't reliant on the other 3 party members for his ability slots. In both PUP and the traditional Mime, and even Gogo, there are limitations set in place as to how many things you can actually mimic. Why is a difference in the limitation factor automatically rule out the resemblence between the jobs?

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And a Mime can't change their role like a PUP can.


Wait, a Mime can't choose to stop mimicing an attacker and start mimicing the healer? That doesn't make any sense at all. Are you sure you know what Mimes do?

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A Mime's role is pretty much fixed based on what's in the party, whereas a PUP can act independently of the party.


Yet another example where, for some reason, you refuse to entertain the idea that the classic Mime template can be adapted in different ways.

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I really don't think there's anything particularly Mime-like about PUP. They are completely different jobs with only very small stylistic similarities. Functionally there is a big difference between being a jack-of-all-trades-that-are-present-in-the-current-party, and someone who can change to any role they want to.


Wait, what's the funcional difference between having access to the abilities of many other jobs and having access to the abilities of many other jobs again? Oh, one is limited to what abilities they're equipped with, like Gogo, while the other is limited to the abilities used by other characters in the party?

Seriously, what idea of Mime are you basing your closed minded view from?

I've already talked about Gogo from FFVI.

The Mime in FFV had the mimic command, but also was able to 'equip' abilities from other jobs.

And then, of course, is the FFTactics Mime, which seems to be the one you're referring to.

Well, let's see, 2/3 times Mime has appeared as a seperate class in a Final Fantasy game (and not just a command), it has NOT been limited to only doing what others in the party do. In 2/3 specific Mime incarnations, the Mime is able to EQUIP the special abilities of other jobs regardless of whether they were fighting alongside the Mime or not.

I seriously think it's time for you to re-evaluate what the "traditional" FF Mime is really like.




Edited, Oct 14th 2009 4:25pm by CireXF
#23 Oct 14 2009 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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You forgot gunblade. XD
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#24 Oct 14 2009 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Autumnfire wrote:
You forgot gunblade. XD


Yeah, considering they're making XIV more 'high-tech' than XI, a Gunblade or other forms of advanced weaponry could be a possibility. I'm not sure what kind of abilities it would give access to, though.
#25 Oct 14 2009 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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willfully blind to the parallels between PUP and Mime.


No, I'm trying to see it. I just don't. It seems more like you're trying to see what isn't there.

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Please point out why an alternate Mime incarnation couldn't copy available jobs.


It could, in certain ways, but PUP doesn't copy available jobs. There's a difference between being a job that can use the abilities of other jobs, and a job that can perform several roles.

Put it to you this way, you'd have better luck convincing me that Samurai was "basically" the same as any other melee DD. Even when those jobs have almost the exact same party role, they are still very distinct. You wouldn't be able to convince most people that Dragoon is already basically present in the game because Samurai is so similar.

Quote:
B) PUP frequently specializes. In fact, that's the most effective way to play the job. In situations where the BLM puppet shines, the master's physical dmg is typcially useless. In situations where you need a physical DD puppet, the master is going to be up fighting right along with it. There are only a couple examples of situations where the master and the puppet have different focuses.

Regardless, PUP is free to specialize or hybridize as it sees fit. Perhaps if you actually played the job you would understand how it works.


Pretty presumptuous of you to assume that I don't know how the job works, especially considering that I haven't contradicted anything you've said about the role of the job. I've read up on the job extensively. It seems that you'd really like to blame my inability to agree with you on my ignorance, which is understandable, but not the case. I genuinely think most people would disagree with you.

Quote:
Edit: Furthermore, after looking up the FFT version of Mime, it appears that one of their innate abilities is Brawler, which increases abilities of H2H fighting. So right there you're wrong- even the one Mime incarnation you're basing your stance off of specializes in H2H fighting, just like PUP does.


Well actually I'm basing it off of three incarnations, though I did neglect that aspect, fine. You still seem to think I'm being a lot less objective about this than I really am.

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Yet another example where, for some reason, you refuse to entertain the idea that the classic Mime template can be adapted in different ways.


It can, but I don't think PUP is it. I would call COR an adaptation of Gambler. If PUP has any origins in Mime, it's not an adaptation, but a complete rewrite.

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Well, let's see, 2/3 times Mime has appeared as a seperate class in a Final Fantasy game (and not just a command), it has NOT been limited to only doing what others in the party do. In 2/3 specific Mime incarnations, the Mime is able to EQUIP the special abilities of other jobs regardless of whether they were fighting alongside the Mime or not.


You're right, but that's still very different from gearing a puppet to perform different roles. If you could equip different jobs to yourself, then yes, you'd have something there. Edit: Also, in FFVI, your party members still have to have those abilities. Gogo can't equip abilities until he is in the party with someone who has them, so they don't have to be in your immediate party, but they do have to be in your story party. As for FFV, you also don't get to freely pick abilities however you want. Those jobs still have to be mastered, though I'll admit that I don't remember if the Mime has to master them themself or if they can equip abilities that other characters mastered.

Alright, this is just getting too ridiculous for me. You're being a little too hostile and defensive over such a lighthearted matter for me to enjoy it. I mean, really, it doesn't matter to me what you think about the relationship between PUP and Mime, and I don't see why what I think should matter much to you.

You make it sound like your entire career as a PUP was based on the idea that PUP is the Mime of FFXI, so who am I to take that away from you.

Besides, you've kind of got a filibuster going on. I have other stuff to do, you know.

Edited, Oct 14th 2009 3:26pm by Kachi
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#26 Oct 14 2009 at 10:33 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
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willfully blind to the parallels between PUP and Mime.


No, I'm trying to see it. I just don't. It seems more like you're trying to see what isn't there.


Sorry, it's just so obvious, I'm running out of ways to describe it. I mean, there's only so many ways to explain to someone that 2 + 2 = 4.

Quote:
It could, in certain ways, but PUP doesn't copy available jobs. There's a difference between being a job that can use the abilities of other jobs, and a job that can perform several roles.


Please explain how you can look at a Spiritreaver Automaton and not get the idea that it's mimicing a Black Mage.

What's the difference between a job that can use the abilities of other jobs to perform several roles and a job that can use the abilities of other jobs?

Explain to me what PUP gets that is unique to PUP. What abilities does PUP have access to that define it's function that are wholly unique to it?

Quote:
Put it to you this way, you'd have better luck convincing me that Samurai was "basically" the same as any other melee DD. Even when those jobs have almost the exact same party role, they are still very distinct. You wouldn't be able to convince most people that Dragoon is already basically present in the game because Samurai is so similar.


Does SAM natively get access to the same JAs as Dragoon?

Nooooo . . .

Does SAM natively get access to the same JAs as any other melee DDs?

Noooo . . . So what's your point again?

Quote:
Pretty presumptuous of you to assume that I don't know how the job works, especially considering that I haven't contradicted anything you've said about the role of the job. I've read up on the job extensively. It seems that you'd really like to blame my inability to agree with you on my ignorance, which is understandable, but not the case. I genuinely think most people would disagree with you.


Well, hey, if you understand how PUP works, then why would you make a statement claiming:
Kachi wrote:
A Mime is not necessarily a hybrid job, a PUP is


So I pointed out that both jobs have the capability to focus on one role, or they can attempt to fulfill several at once. Your claim that PUP can only perform multiple roles at once is 100% false, and it's a huge hole in your arguement.

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It can, but I don't think PUP is it. I would call COR an adaptation of Gambler. If PUP has any origins in Mime, it's not an adaptation, but a complete rewrite.


Seriously, repeating myself is getting pretty old. In 2/3 Mime jobs present in FF games, the Mime has the ability to equip- EQUIP - abilities of other jobs. PUP does the same thing. How can it be a "complete rewrite" if that mechanic has already been used before?

Quote:
You're right, but that's still very different from gearing a puppet to perform different roles. If you could equip different jobs to yourself, then yes, you'd have something there.


How is equipping abilites to a puppet different from equipping abilities to yourself? What does it matter whether your pet is performing the ability or yourself, the only way the ability is getting used is from the job, which includes both entities.

Your insistence on splitting the master from the puppet is another huge giveaway that you really don't know what you're talking about with PUP.

Quote:
Edit: Also, in FFVI, your party members still have to have those abilities. Gogo can't equip abilities until he is in the party with someone who has them, so they don't have to be in your immediate party, but they do have to be in your story party.


Key phrase being "They don't have to be in your immediate party". As in, the character from which the equipped ability originates can be on the sidelines - not in the battle party - and the ability can still be equipped and used by the Mime.

You're really pulling at straws here. Why are you so desperate to not look at things logically?

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As for FFV, you also don't get to freely pick abilities however you want. Those jobs still have to be mastered, though I'll admit that I don't remember if the Mime has to master them themself or if they can equip abilities that other characters mastered.


The Mime has to have learned the abilities himself in order to use them. The abilities learned by other party members have no impact.

Interesting fact, that- just because Bartz has mastered Time Magic, that doesn't mean that Faris can automatically use all Time Magic as a Mime. Conversely, Faris can use all Blue Magic as a Mime, even if none of the other members have even touched the job.

Hmmm, PUP isn't reliant on what other jobs in the party have learned either. Isn't that interesting? PUP can equip abilities regardless of whether other people in the party have access to them or not. Sounds pretty similar, wouldn't you say?


Meh, good riddance. Speculation threads don't really get anywhere when they're plagued by rigidly closed minded people anyway.
#27 Oct 15 2009 at 12:24 AM Rating: Good
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Wow you guys have been debating about mime -pup quite fiercely and that's great. Even if you could not convince one another i'm sure others who have read your comments see both jobs in a different way now.

Gunblades!!! that would be awesome! I hope they implement something like that in XIV. It would be even cooler if we could have different kinds of ammo that caused status effects which could attach to our gunblades like in the ammo slot of ffXI equipment window.
#28 Oct 15 2009 at 2:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Ipwnrice wrote:
I like the idea of this, but to me how they said the direction of the armory system is, it sounds more like it would be skills/abilities/spells that would be unlocked as opposed to a "class". From what they have said in their interviews its your skills that determine your role but you don't really have a class/job name to distinguish yourself based off your skills (if I worded that right), although you could technically call yourself whatever the **** you want.


Oh right... I think they described it more like class names being titles for your current setup. Still, your skill with a weapon will be recorded, so if you progress enough in sword, staff and wand, you could unlock the ability to use weapons that grant the title of fencer with the associated RDM-like skills and spells. Also, I assume that since the focus lies on weapons, there is a minimum requirement to be able to use more advanced weapons.

But whatever it turns out to be, it looks interesting.
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#29 Oct 15 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Second, point out where SAM/DNC can cast nukes or Paralyze, Dia, Slow, Flash, Shieldbash, etc . . .
ele WS, gekko=silence, kasha=paralyze, Yuki=blind, blade bash=stun+plague.

Point being: 1) this argument is stupid, 2) a class w/o "mime" JA is not a mime- "mime" is the skill that defines the class, not how much spell/JA variety you have. You might as well call PUP "beastmaster" because it calls out a pet that can use different abilities based on your selection.
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PUP gets access to all of these abilities from other jobs naturally.
You're fine w/ BLU=Mime though? It's still a crappy comparison whether you only count main job or not.

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Gunblades!!!
**** yes, I'd also love to see the FFVIII/Lost Odyssey "trigger" mechanism in place rather than "no auto-attack" to keep players engaged.

back on topic-

Boomerang/throwing- NIN, THF
Nunchuck- MNK, NIN (FFI?, FFIV, FFVIII)
Fork(lol)- BLU (FFIX)
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#30 Oct 15 2009 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Please explain how you can look at a Spiritreaver Automaton and not get the idea that it's mimicing a Black Mage.


A puppet only mimics a BLM if you engineer it to do so. Since the central idea of the Mime is that you mimic people, I don't consider a machine doing what it's built to do the same thing as mimicking, even if it's built to mimic something.

Jobs are not all about role. They are heavily based on style. That's why I say that equating PUP to Mime is like equating SAM to DRG. They perform the same basic roles, but in very different ways, with different aesthetic qualities and lore.

Quote:

Explain to me what PUP gets that is unique to PUP. What abilities does PUP have access to that define it's function that are wholly unique to it?


A PUP is a hybrid pet job. What abilities does it have access to? Seriously? How about the ability to fight with a puppet.

You have made some better arguments, I'll grant you that, but on the other hand, you're acting like an ignorant *** who doesn't deserve a truly thoughtful response, so I'll just say this:

I still disagree. Ultimately without a Mimic ability, it's just not a Mime. I can see better why you think it's an incarnation of Mime, and I can better see it as a spiritual successor myself, though still not as strongly as Gambler -> Corsair, and certainly not enough to make me feel as though the Mime job was represented in XI.

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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#31 Oct 15 2009 at 3:26 PM Rating: Default
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shintasama wrote:
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Second, point out where SAM/DNC can cast nukes or Paralyze, Dia, Slow, Flash, Shieldbash, etc . . .
ele WS, gekko=silence, kasha=paralyze, Yuki=blind, blade bash=stun+plague.


Fascinating how you still can't point out how SAM gets nukes natively.

Quote:
Quote:
PUP gets access to all of these abilities from other jobs naturally.
You're fine w/ BLU=Mime though? It's still a crappy comparison whether you only count main job or not.


It's pretty obvious that BLU copies monsters instead of party members. I thought that was pretty obvious, so I didn't comment on it. I guess it's not quite so obvious to some people?

Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Please explain how you can look at a Spiritreaver Automaton and not get the idea that it's mimicing a Black Mage.


A puppet only mimics a BLM if you engineer it to do so. Since the central idea of the Mime is that you mimic people, I don't consider a machine doing what it's built to do the same thing as mimicking, even if it's built to mimic something.


I'm still confused why it matters whether the player, or a puppet controlled by the player is doing the mimicing. Ultimately, they're all under the control of the player. Having a pet do it is just an evolution or spin on the traditional Mime. I don't understand why it's such a make-or-break detail for you.

Quote:
Jobs are not all about role. They are heavily based on style. That's why I say that equating PUP to Mime is like equating SAM to DRG. They perform the same basic roles, but in very different ways, with different aesthetic qualities and lore.


Oh, I totally agree that jobs are style as much as function.

But, initially, you seemed to think Mime and PUP were similar in style, both being entertainers. If you're referring to the style in which they perform their roles, I still don't see the difference you do, whereas I see a huge difference in how SAM and DRG perform their DD function.

Quote:

A PUP is a hybrid pet job. What abilities does it have access to? Seriously? How about the ability to fight with a puppet.


PLD and BLU both fight with swords, but they still perform different functions. The tool you use, even if it's a unique tool, isn't as important as what you do with it.

If there was a job that used a fly swatter, except the fly swatter didn't do much dmg on it's own, so the job got special JAs that allowed the fly swatter to do huge amounts of dmg once a minute depending on where they attacked the monster from, and better yet, they could make the monster think another party member was the one that launched the devastating fly swatter attack . . .

then it's a re-hashed THF, no matter how you slice it. Sure, they're using a fly swatter instead of a dagger, but they're still doing the same thing. They're still connected.

Quote:
You have made some better arguments, I'll grant you that, but on the other hand, you're acting like an ignorant *** who doesn't deserve a truly thoughtful response, so I'll just say this:

I still disagree. Ultimately without a Mimic ability, it's just not a Mime. I can see better why you think it's an incarnation of Mime, and I can better see it as a spiritual successor myself, though still not as strongly as Gambler -> Corsair, and certainly not enough to make me feel as though the Mime job was represented in XI.




Ok, so at least you see the similarities between the jobs, but you still seem to be hung up on the lack of a "Mimic" command.

Ok, well then if Corsair = Gambler, then where is the COR's slot ability? I mean, every incarnation of Gambler had a command where you saw a spinning wheel and you had to line up the picures to trigger different effects, right? I mean, not just in one or two Gambler versions, but every single one.

Corsair doesn't have a Slot Command. So because it is lacking this one classic Gambler command, does it automatically rule them out from being related to Gambler?

No, I don't think it does. Which is why I don't think PUP needs a "Mimic" command to be considered related to Mime.
#32 Oct 15 2009 at 10:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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HELLO! have we forgot about the most EPIC weapon of all time! the BLITZBALL!!
#33 Oct 15 2009 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
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In a dev interview SE actually said PUP was intended as a Necromancer type job, they wanted to have necromancer as one of the ToAU jobs but thought being able to summon undead during the day would contradict the game world. So they created PUP instead.
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#34 Oct 16 2009 at 12:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Fascinating how you still can't point out how SAM gets nukes natively
Elemental dmg WS.

I know it's a stretch, but you're completely missing the point (in that it's no more of a stretch than your silliness).
Quote:
It's pretty obvious that BLU copies monsters instead of party members. I thought that was pretty obvious, so I didn't comment on it. I guess it's not quite so obvious to some people?
PUP isn't copying PT members either! Shouldn't that have been obvious? RDM and WHM can both heal, but that doesn't mean RDM is "mimicing" WHM, it means they both have those skills.

hybrid (pet) class != mime
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#35 Oct 16 2009 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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shintasama wrote:
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Fascinating how you still can't point out how SAM gets nukes natively
Elemental dmg WS.

I know it's a stretch, but you're completely missing the point (in that it's no more of a stretch than your silliness).


What? It seems like a huge stretch to equate elemental WS and add. effect enfeebles with actually casting the spells themselves.

PUP is actually casting the spells. The same spells. Not using abilities that give those spell effects, but literally casting the same spells.

PUP literally gets access to many, many job specific abilities. Not just similar abilities that do the same thing, but literally the same abilities.

You're stretching waaaaaaay more than I am.


Quote:
PUP isn't copying PT members either! Shouldn't that have been obvious? RDM and WHM can both heal, but that doesn't mean RDM is "mimicing" WHM, it means they both have those skills.


First of all, we already established that PUP doesn't mimc party members. Bringing that up again is a straw man point.

PUP mimics different jobs, by equipping attatchments that grant various abilities.


It's ridiculous to claim that two mage jobs are mimicing each other simply because they both have access to white magic. That's just an overlap in their abilities.

PUP is different because it's puppet's access to white magic is situational. If you set the puppet up to use white magic, you are doing that at the expense of using other abilities. White Mage, Red Mage, and even Scholar don't lose their access to a spell line in order to do something else.

You know, kind of like how the Mime class in FFV and Gogo could equip various commands, to the exclusion of others.


Also, PUP gets access to many more job specific abilities than one school of magic. It's the wide variety of jobs that it has skills from that make it similar to Mime. It copies white magic, it copies black magic, and it copies physical destructive and defensive job abilities as well. The scope of PUP's potential is far larger than the mere ability overlap that you keep trying to relegate it to.



So, no hybrid is not the same as Mime. But a hybrid that only has abilities that are literal copies of those used by other jobs would be like a Mime, yes.
#36 Oct 16 2009 at 2:35 PM Rating: Default
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HELLO! have we forgot about the most EPIC weapon of all time! the BLITZBALL!!


Oh, man, I would totally love to see less traditional weapons like this utilized. So would Blitzballs grant access to Add. Effect status attacks? Kind of like a Sorceror, I guess, but instead of dealing extra dmg, it deals extra enfeebles? That could be pretty interesting if implemented right. Kind of like a job that specializes in the crowssbows from XI, perhaps.
#37 Oct 16 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Corsair doesn't have a Slot Command. So because it is lacking this one classic Gambler command, does it automatically rule them out from being related to Gambler?


No, because the defining characteristic of a Mime is that they mimic, just like the defining characteristic of a Gambler is that they gamble. Corsair's gamble, and are stylistically incredibly similar.

And as someone else pointed out, PUP was SEs answer to Necromancer, which I had forgotten. I think any of the PUPs "mimicking" qualities are purely coincidental, merely a stretch of the imagination.

As for stylistic similarities, I think both being entertainers of a sort is an awfully broad comparison that could include Bard and Dancer. It's there, yes, but it's small. I think of it in the same way as the relationship between MNK, NIN and SAM as eastern-inspired jobs.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#38 Oct 17 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
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Corsair doesn't have a Slot Command. So because it is lacking this one classic Gambler command, does it automatically rule them out from being related to Gambler?


No, because the defining characteristic of a Mime is that they mimic, just like the defining characteristic of a Gambler is that they gamble. Corsair's gamble, and are stylistically incredibly similar.



Well, sure, a gambler doesn't need to use a slot machine to gamble. They could play cards, they could roll dice, they could bet on sports games.

The thing is, a mime doesn't need a box present to mimic being trapped in one, does it? In fact, the whole point to miming stuff is that you're performing actions when the objects aren't really there. Like miming pulling a rope when you don't really have a rope, or driving a car when you don't really have a steering wheel, let alone a car.

A real Mime doesn't need something in its presence to mimic it. Just like a gambler doesn't need a slot machine in order to gamble.

Quote:
And as someone else pointed out, PUP was SEs answer to Necromancer, which I had forgotten. I think any of the PUPs "mimicking" qualities are purely coincidental, merely a stretch of the imagination.


I'm well aware of what PUP started out as. And I never once claimed that PUP's uncanny resemblence to Mime was intentionally planned out. After all, I don't think there's any sort of interview quote with SE either way.

On the other hand, once they scrapped the idea of Necromancer, they obviously had to take the job in a different direction. I mean, do you really think they designed a necromancer where you can equip different gadgets to your ghost/zombie/whatever to allow it to perform various roles? I don't know about you, but the idea of playing dress-up with the undead seems kind of silly.

Bottom line is that whatever PUP started out as, SE has gone on recored to say that the necromancer was scrapped, so it's obvious that PUP today isn't linked to necromancer.
#39 Oct 17 2009 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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A real Mime doesn't need something in its presence to mimic it.
A ff mime does though, it's how the game mechanic works.
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#40 Oct 17 2009 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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shintasama wrote:
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A real Mime doesn't need something in its presence to mimic it.
A ff mime does though, it's how the game mechanic works.


Wow, that's funny because I've just posted examples where in 2/3 Mime incarnations in FF, the Mime could mimic abilities without the applicable character/class in it's presense. Seriously, have you been following along?
#41 Oct 19 2009 at 8:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think it really makes your case that one of your examples still requires that they be in your party at some point, and the other has to actually master that job themselves first.

No, they don't have to be immediately present, but the Mime does have to be grouped with whoever he will mimic at some point (I think they may have sneaked in a contrary example in the GBA version of FFV). But that's beside the point, which is that the Mime CAN mimic present party members, whether he has their skills equipped or not.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#42 Oct 19 2009 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
Point of order- in FF, the class is mimic. It just so happens to have been translated as mime, but everything about the class is about mimicking abilities, not miming out a story.

In FFV mimes can use the abilities of other classes it has learned, which is sort of like mimicking the styles of the other classes without having to actually see them. Gogo from FFVI can also be manually equipped with abilities that the party can use, indicating he or she can mimick abilities not just seen.
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Die! Die die die. die die die die, die die. - Scarlet Briar
#43CireXF, Posted: Oct 20 2009 at 3:40 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ok, seriously, why do I have to keep repeating myself? What is it that is so hard to understand?
#44 Oct 20 2009 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Dude, maybe if you calm down and stop getting so upset about a video game discussion, you'll realize that I've actually been pretty reasoned about everything I've said. Meanwhile, you continue to be a thick, abrasive ***.

Quote:

In FFV, you do NOT have to have the job mastered in order to equip it's abilities. I don't know where you got the idea that you did, because it is 100% false, and trying to debate without facts is just stupid and pointless. Do your research. Seriously.


Uh, I did do my research. It's been a decade since I played the game, and I never played the GBA version that had some changes, so I checked the wiki.
Quote:
Innate Abilities - Every innate ability from every job mastered, except the Berserker's Berserk, Necromancer's Undead, and the Equip abilities.


Now obviously I can't know if this is correct, and I admitted in the first **** place that I didn't know if that included only jobs that the character had mastered, or any character had mastered.

And why do you keep going on about Gogo being able to equip abilities? We established that like a week ago. Strawman much? So shut the **** up about it already.

But again, you're proving yourself to be an expert at missing the point. If you'd actually like to respond to my argument, go ahead and read it again. If you don't see the argument that needs responding to, maybe take a few reading comprehension courses, come back, and try again.

On second thought, just stop. I'm looking over your post again and it's clear that you just want to ignore anything I say that doesn't suit your stance. So forget the classes-- come back when you grow up and can spare me the adolescent tantrum.

I mean, you can't even acknowledge the things that I've CONCEDED to you. I have to assume it's because you're afraid it will reveal how reasonable I am, and you'll be unable to rave about how obtuse the people who disagree with you are. I don't know what the solution is for you, but it's not attempting a productive debate. Maybe medication? Therapy?
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#45 Oct 21 2009 at 4:05 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:

Uh, I did do my research. It's been a decade since I played the game, and I never played the GBA version that had some changes, so I checked the wiki.
Quote:
Innate Abilities - Every innate ability from every job mastered, except the Berserker's Berserk, Necromancer's Undead, and the Equip abilities.


Since when was I talking about innate abilities? I'm talking about equipable ones that the Mime uses. I've never mentioned the innate abilities for the FFV Mime at all, so I'm at a loss to why you would bring them up.



Quote:
And why do you keep going on about Gogo being able to equip abilities? We established that like a week ago. Strawman much? So shut the @#%^ up about it already.


Because that part of FFVI's Mime character is almost exactly like how PUP works. And you keep coming in and trying to qualify it with "But the character has to be in your group in order to equip the ability to Gogo".

I already explained why this argument is pointless in my previous post. I'm not going to repeat it. Perhaps you'd like to go back and read a second time if you still don't understand. Perhaps take some reading comrehension courses?

Quote:
On second thought, just stop. I'm looking over your post again and it's clear that you just want to ignore anything I say that doesn't suit your stance. So forget the classes-- come back when you grow up and can spare me the adolescent tantrum.

. . .

I don't know what the solution is for you, but it's not attempting a productive debate. Maybe medication? Therapy?


Because hurling such accusations isn't adolescent at all . . .

Congratulations, you've now degenerated the thread into a name-calling match. Your entire post is just "You don't understand me! You're mean! You're stupid/crazy/immature!" At no point in this thread have I personally attacked you, except maybe to say that you're closed minded. This, my friend, is the second post where you've crossed that line. I can't help but wonder why you're becoming so hostile or why you haven't been reprimanded for your increasingly rude behavior.


Seriously, if I'm not responding to your points, point out where I went wrong in my understanding of what you've posted. If you can't do that, then what's the point of posting any further?
#46 Oct 22 2009 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Since when was I talking about innate abilities? I'm talking about equipable ones that the Mime uses. I've never mentioned the innate abilities for the FFV Mime at all, so I'm at a loss to why you would bring them up.


Well, uh, no other job has that innate ability apparently. In fact I'm pretty sure that that's what you're talking about when you refer to being able to equip abilities. The ability to equip abilities is that innate ability I just quoted.

As for being able to equip abilities, no, I don't consider interchanging body parts and attachments nearly the same as Gogo's ability to equip ability sets from the jobs he's partied with. Too much of a stretch for me.

But I'm done talking to you. You have some audacity to ignore my concessions and then talk down to me and not expect some kind of insult.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Oct 24 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Since when was I talking about innate abilities? I'm talking about equipable ones that the Mime uses. I've never mentioned the innate abilities for the FFV Mime at all, so I'm at a loss to why you would bring them up.


Well, uh, no other job has that innate ability apparently. In fact I'm pretty sure that that's what you're talking about when you refer to being able to equip abilities. The ability to equip abilities is that innate ability I just quoted.

As for being able to equip abilities, no, I don't consider interchanging body parts and attachments nearly the same as Gogo's ability to equip ability sets from the jobs he's partied with. Too much of a stretch for me.



Ok, come on, have you even played as Mime in FFV and FFVI? Really? Half the point to the job was that you were able to customise your command menu. In both games you had extra command slots that you could fill with whatever commands you wanted, from whatever class/character you wanted.

In the case of FFV, you could choose any command you had previously learned on another class. No, you did not need to master the class in order to equip its abilities, but you did need to progress far enough in it to "learn" the command. In FFV, the class progression of other party members had no impact what-so-ever on what commands you could equip as a Mime. In this way, the Mime not only mimiced party members (through the Mimic command), but could also mimic any class not present in the party through equipping more ability commands in their menu than any other class in the game.

The innate ability thing you're referring to is that the Mime also gets the passive abilities of any job he's mastered. Like if the Mime had previously mastered Thief, then they would be able to Dash without equipping Dash in their extra ability slot. Or if they had mastered Geomancer, then they would automatically not take damage from damage tiles, without having to equip the ability in their extra slot.

However, even if the Mime hadn't mastered THF, they were still able to equip any Thief abilites they had learned to their menu; a Mime could equip Geomancy to their extra slot regardless of whether they had mastered Geomancer or not. Thus, the ability to equip abilities is NOT dependent on mastered classes, which is why your argument doesn't apply.


In FFVI, Gogo also has the ability to fully customize his command window with abilities from any other character. Gogo has a certain number of slots he can use, and you choose which abilities to equip to that limited number of slots. How is that sooooo different from PUP, where you have attatchment slots in which you can equip a limited number of attatchments with grant access to the usage of abilities from other jobs? How is that any sort of a stretch? The similarity is just so blatantly obvious.

Quote:
But I'm done talking to you. You have some audacity to ignore my concessions and then talk down to me and not expect some kind of insult.


There's a difference between attacking someone's argument and attacking someone personally. If you don't understand that difference, then, well, you probably don't take any criticism well, and probably won't get very far in life at all as a result. So, sucks to be you, I guess.

But are you done? Really? Because you've already said that, and yet you keep coming back. Every time you make a concession, you seemingly retract it by bringing up the same dumb arguments. Any concession you've made and not retracted, I've let go simply because we're no longer on the subject. But if you like, I can certainly start patting you on the head for every occasion when you finally open your eyes and see the truth in front of your face. ;-)
#48 Oct 24 2009 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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I'll give you this: Your idiocy is very well-written. Unfortunately, having decent writing skills and writing a lot on the subject do not make your arguments intelligible.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#49 Oct 24 2009 at 1:08 PM Rating: Default
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719 posts
Kachi wrote:
I'll give you this: Your idiocy is very well-written. Unfortunately, having decent writing skills and writing a lot on the subject do not make your arguments intelligible.


Aww, look, you did come back. And again, you pop in only to toss some more personal insults. Really, do you have nothing more to say than to name-call? If you can't grasp a simple straight-forward comparison, then that's your problem, buddy. I mean, you're not even asking questions in the attempt to understand what I have explained quite clearly, in extensive detail, several times already.

So, if you have nothing to say but personal attacks, and are unwilling to even make the attempt to understand what's being discussed, why are you still posting when you said you were done? My God, you can't even agree with yourself.



Oh, I almost forgot: Good job acknowledging that I write well! See? I'm noticing your concessions! Feel better?
#50 Oct 24 2009 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry, I guess I wasn't quite clear. I'm done talking to you about PUP=Mime, because there's nothing more to discuss, and you're a complete ****. I'll gladly keep insulting you though, because your desperation to be right about this subject is pathetic, and rhetorical lengths you're apparently willing to go through are fun to watch, in a trainwreck sort of way.

I mean, how does someone get a smug sense of superiority over allowing themselves to be trolled?
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#51 Oct 24 2009 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
9 posts
If it helps, I think the mime/PUP comparison is a bit of a stretch.
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