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PL - Power Leveling - your thoughtsFollow

#1 Oct 11 2009 at 9:08 PM Rating: Decent
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One thing I liked about FFXI was that for the most part Power Leveling was limited. Yes, a PL could help someone in FFXI gain experience faster, but not THAT much faster. I hate it in MMOs when there are ways for people to get PLed in a way that gets them experience at MUCH faster rate than without a PL.

It is possible to pretty much eliminate PLing. For example in FFXI, if someone heals you while you are in combat, then that person could be considered part of your party and your XP would be adjusted accordingly.

What are your guys thoughts about PLing? I see 3 choices:

1) No PLing - Let everyone do the work themselves
2) Limited PLing - like FFXI
3) Let people PL as much as they want!!! Like this:

FFXI - PL gone mad!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lXu7wkzaC8
or
WOW - PL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN7KfJ7ZKXc
#2 Oct 11 2009 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd say no simply due to RMT exploitation.
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#3 Oct 11 2009 at 9:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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If SE wants to limit PL somehow I wont complain nor will I complain if they decided not to limit it. I don't much care either way. The only problem I see with PLing is players getting to level cap before they know how to play their class which is easily solved by a kick button.
#4 Oct 11 2009 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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It's nice to be able to cure people who are in trouble. I think if a person outside of a party cures party members 3 times, then they shouldn't be able to cure that party again for a certain amount of time like 60 minutes. I never liked the practice of PLing.
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#5 Oct 11 2009 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't mind it as long as it requires another person actively sitting there and doing it. Some one multi-boxing or whatever is iffy for me but if it's some program or automated script then that's crossing the line.
#6 Oct 12 2009 at 1:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Power Leveling isn't really that big a problem. Crappy players will be crappy players whether they get to the level cap slowly or quickly. In fact, depending on just how arduous leveling is, I'd probably rather have the option to power level my third, fourth, fifth, etc jobs left open to me.
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#7 Oct 12 2009 at 2:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm assuming SE are going to be anti-PL this time round
They've already said that a much more "skilled" player can easily party with a less skilled person -- presuming skill is the new level here too. Now this is obviously easily exploited, so surely they'll have a system in place to stop it happening?
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#8 Oct 12 2009 at 3:07 AM Rating: Good
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I'm 50/50 on PLing....
It was nice to be able to not die in Valk because this low leveled played had a main account and was using it to PL us all, but it didn't really give me the full experience of FFXI.
I got a little bored being trained by someone else really and that's mostly why I quit. I don't like people playing the game for me tbh, it has to be me infront of the keyboard or controller, if not then there would be no point in getting the game.

I'm not to bothered was SE decide on PLing in FFXIV. If they do it, then great, but I won't want to participate in a party or in Guildleves that have really high leveled healers with them. I would rather learn from the game the right way and not get to a high level and realise I have no idea how to play on my own.
#9 Oct 12 2009 at 3:46 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not bothered with PL. I don't PL people, people don't PL me. If people PL other people, it's their business, not mine. I'm not going QQ over someone else leveling up quicker than me.
#10 Oct 12 2009 at 6:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I certainly don't want them to penalize anyone for throwing a heal or buff to a player as you run by, but I also agree that PLing probably wasn't the best of things.

It certainly wasn't a major concern of mine in FFXI, and you could always opt not to participate.

That said, I certainly was in some lower level parties on my 3rd, 4th jobs just to make the Dunes go by a little faster.
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#11 Oct 12 2009 at 7:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I remember being in a few parties that were being powerleveled also. I think it was nice to not have to worry about dieing, but I didnt do it so often that I would lose my ability to play my job well. Its good to just have for a small boost, seeing as how grind intensive FFXI was.
#12 Oct 12 2009 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
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PL'ing is fine the way it is in FFXI, if I want to cure someone outside of party I should be able to.

If they limited curing/buffing to people inside party, it would be very lame and disgusting to me.
#13 Oct 12 2009 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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If they allow it I will do my best to avoid it.
I think it's not so bad if you already have a healer in your party, learning their trade and the PL just steps in if it goes bad or you get links.

It's nice to cure someone as you run past.
I put up with my party being PL'ed sometimes (mainly as BLM when invites tailed off) but wasn't keen.
Especially hated it when I was WHM as it left me little to do and I loved the balancing act of risk/reward and MP conservation. Had a few levels in the dunes where we were PL'ed but felt embarrassed 'cos it felt like I was leaching.
Met too many WHM that never learned to play well and it's really annoying having a poor healer in party if there's no one else on you can use.

#14 Oct 12 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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It all depends on how the game mechanics will work, with that said it doesn't matter to me if they have it or not. On another note, there were many a day in FFXI that I wished I had a second account for dualboxing as a PL in parties. I very much plan on doing it in FFXIV if it is anywhere as useful as it was in XI.
#15 Oct 12 2009 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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I imagine it will be similar to FFXI in most cases, but for instanced guildleves, I suspect you won't be able to bring PLs unless they are in your party, which will of course limit your growth.
#16 Oct 12 2009 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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I'm hoping that the system will be set up in such a way that the term "powerleveling" is meaningless.
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#17 Oct 12 2009 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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If they allow it I will do my best to avoid it.
I think it's not so bad if you already have a healer in your party, learning their trade and the PL just steps in if it goes bad or you get links.

It's nice to cure someone as you run past.
I put up with my party being PL'ed sometimes (mainly as BLM when invites tailed off) but wasn't keen.
Especially hated it when I was WHM as it left me little to do and I loved the balancing act of risk/reward and MP conservation. Had a few levels in the dunes where we were PL'ed but felt embarrassed 'cos it felt like I was leaching.
Met too many WHM that never learned to play well and it's really annoying having a poor healer in party if there's no one else on you can use.


No one learns how to play their job @75 by doing exp pts, certainly not whm. Exping in this game is a means to an end, nothing more. Quite honestly there wouldn't have been such a need or desire for PL'ing if the exping aspect of FFXI wasn't so tedious and absolutely time consuming; especially if you're playing a less than favored job.

Hopefully the "leveling" system in FFXIV won't be set up to be as mind numbingly boring and will have better options for gaining those skill levels.
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#18 Oct 18 2009 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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just for everyone... don't forget when you are fighting HNM and have the alliance full, your ls member can still suport you from outside (healing and stuff). This is not PLing but still helps a lot.

If somone wanna help another to do stuff, i dont see problems with that. If what he is doing make the other lvl up faster... good for him. Dont try to regulate something that it is up to you.

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#19 Oct 18 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
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The biggest mystery is why you can't all fight the mob too. If everyone can help cure, why not help damage?

Something like "It would be too easy if you killed the mob, but it isn't not too easy if you are unable to die"
#20 Oct 18 2009 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, it's nice to be able to get cures from someone outside your party, but you have to consider that being helped in this way takes away the difficulty and strategy of leveling.

This is my solution:

1) You are allowed to heal anyone, but the other person has to grant you permission to be healed by you. Permission will be asked the first time someone receives a heal, but after that it will be assumed permission is still granted unless the healed person later removes permission from the healer.

2) If someone heals you while you are in combat, your EXP will be adjusted as if that person is in your party (you wont get as much EXP). This prevents RMT PL parties. This will still allow for extra heals during NM fights when you don't care about the EXP, but it will discourage experience parties from having PLs.

3) Because permission must be granted to be healed by another player, you can't have high level jackasses running around casting a Cure I on experience parties just so that they get less experience. In this case, members of the experience party will not grant permission to be healed by the high level jackass.

4) Make FFXIV not such a experience grind fest so that no one will miss having PLs!!!!!!! I really feel that people will enjoy the game more if they don't have to worry about PLing their friends in experience parties, with my system PLing won't help them get more EXP anyway.
#21 Oct 18 2009 at 11:00 PM Rating: Default
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A PL won't matter for FFXIV because there are no levels. Sure you can have a friend sorta help you out during your "skill up" party, but I don't think it will be as helpful. The main reason this is true is because you won't need the cookie cutter setup for parties. So it will be very easy to grab a person to heal, or maybe 2 if needed. No negative bonus according to SE by the number of people in party simply removes the point of PLing. If someone wants to heal, they can simply join your party and heal. There won't be job levels so it's not like the party is lv50 and the healer is lv75.

So no, PLing won't be in FFXIV. Your possible PL won't have the level advantage and won't detract from "skill points" even if they wanted to join party.
#22 Oct 18 2009 at 11:52 PM Rating: Default
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So no, PLing won't be in FFXIV. Your possible PL won't have the level advantage and won't detract from "skill points" even if they wanted to join party.


I don't quite think this is true... Let's say you form a party where everyone in the party has weapon skills between 50-75. Then you have a friend who has a staff skill of 500 and uses their staff for white mage type spells. Your white mage friend can cast massively powerful cures relative to the ones anyone in your party could cast. So basically the white mage friend can cure your whole party and act as a PL.

Yeah, your white mage friend could join your party and probably would have to "skill level sync", but then they wouldn't be as effective of a healer than if he/she just healed while not being in the party.

#23 Oct 19 2009 at 12:18 AM Rating: Good
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Cyiode wrote:

I don't quite think this is true... Let's say you form a party where everyone in the party has weapon skills between 50-75. Then you have a friend who has a staff skill of 500 and uses their staff for white mage type spells. Your white mage friend can cast massively powerful cures relative to the ones anyone in your party could cast. So basically the white mage friend can cure your whole party and act as a PL.

Yeah, your white mage friend could join your party and probably would have to "skill level sync", but then they wouldn't be as effective of a healer than if he/she just healed while not being in the party.



Remember the old days of everyone joining a party for skill ups in the tree. You'd usually find a WHM joining and other support classes because they never get a chance to melee. That's essentially what FFXIV will be like. Because XP won't be an issue, the novelty of a PL is moot. You can bring 2 healers if you know the camp for your party is rough. SE stated there was no penalty for extra members. So your "skill ups" will be the same with 1 or 3 WHM's, it doesn't matter. Think about it for a moment, the reason why FFXI has niche setups has to do with the almighty max XP per hour quota. Upon review of "skill up" parties, XP isn't a factor so let's examine that formula in more detail. The more healing in a party, the more mobs, the more skill ups you'll receive as a result.

If you combine FF2 and FFV, you have FFXIV. FFV offers the classes which feature the different abilities and skill sets. FF2 provides the model for increasing your healing, melee, defense, etc. just by using that skill.

The system that SE has developed is beyond the limits of FFXI. Again, XP per hour killed the balance of this game. You don't want X job because Y equals more XP. You don't ask a PLD to merit, however you want them to tank your HNM's. Now you can party on PLD(Gladiator) in FFXIV and always be optimal. No stupid XP per quota to get in the way. That's why this system is so appealing to me and why PL is useless. Look at how hard it is for BST to be excepted in FFXI, now it's harmless to bring another DD in FFXIV.
#24 Oct 19 2009 at 6:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Meh, PLs never bothered me. It's rare EXP parties actually 'taught' what a job might doing endgame, since situations will vary.
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#25 Oct 19 2009 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
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ShadowedgeFFXI, I see what you're saying. But if Skill up parties in FFXI are what FFXIV is going to be like, then it seems like it will be extremely boring. You'll be killing the monsters that have the most armor but the least attack, just so that you'll be hitting the thing longer before needing to pull another monsters (I think the general consensus is no more crabs!).

I'm hoping there will still be danger of dying while in combat. If they have no experience penalty for large parties, then wont people just mob up in like a 20 person party and just clear out an entire zone? With a huge party you have a low risk of dying, and you'll still get plenty of skill ups by following the huge party around and hitting whatever they hit.

I kind of liked it in FFXI that experience parties were limited to 6 players, because it required more strategy that way. If you throw in 15 players you wouldn't care about strategy because you have enough people to just beat up the enemy.
#26 Oct 19 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
I wouldn't mind the type of PLing we had in FFXI. I'd sometimes just wander out to my friend's party and give them a hand if I was bored.
It certainly doesn't hurt for low-level players to have a safety net when they're first learning the ropes.
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#27 Oct 19 2009 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Cyiode wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI, I see what you're saying. But if Skill up parties in FFXI are what FFXIV is going to be like, then it seems like it will be extremely boring. You'll be killing the monsters that have the most armor but the least attack, just so that you'll be hitting the thing longer before needing to pull another monsters (I think the general consensus is no more crabs!).

I'm hoping there will still be danger of dying while in combat. If they have no experience penalty for large parties, then wont people just mob up in like a 20 person party and just clear out an entire zone? With a huge party you have a low risk of dying, and you'll still get plenty of skill ups by following the huge party around and hitting whatever they hit.

I kind of liked it in FFXI that experience parties were limited to 6 players, because it required more strategy that way. If you throw in 15 players you wouldn't care about strategy because you have enough people to just beat up the enemy.


Alright, I used the "skill up" party in FFXI to give you an example of how it would play out if we adapted FFXIV to FFXI mechanics. However, the reverse isn't true. FFXIV won't consist of pulling a single mob back to camp or sleeping everything in range similar to meripo parties. I agree though, it would be boring if the standard FFXI mechanics were in effect for the "level up" system in FFXIV.

SE has showed many screen shots of parties surrounded by tons of mobs. In FFXI, you just sleepga everything and one tank calls the targets. FFXIV looks to approach this horde mechanic with more tactics. That's probably why the game doesn't penalize you for having more than your normal party size. You wouldn't worry about mobs in FFXI if you had 15 people like you mentioned, but again, FFXIV isn't the same engine as FFXI. You can have a duo/trio party or have a small alliance. FFXI rarely offered that kind of choice unless you do FoV or have a specialized job like BST. In FFXIV, you'll do most of your daily "XP" in Guildeves. From what SE has confirmed so far, Guildeves appears to be FoV, Assault, Einherjar, Limbus, ZNM, and Campaign OPs all in one.

The Campaign OP's is easy to explain. You know how some of them allow you to solo or take 5 friends with you. The same goes for Assault. You can either take 3 people or take 3~6 people, your choice. The reason why this is relevant is because you'll be doing more low-man XPing to coin a phrase. However, should you wish to join a larger group, you're free to do that as well. The thing to remember here is SE is focusing on providing content for all players. Your average XP party wait time in FFXI doesn't mesh well with everyone. The best part is partying with say 3 people in FFXIV won't be a handicap or less efficient than 6 people grouping together because there is no XP quota. So the benefit of grouping with cookie cutter setups and numbers doesn't give you any advantage. That's what I call balance. Of course a hardcore person will "level up" faster due to more playing time, but not in the time allocated.

Lastly, I don't agree with you that FFXI's 6-man system takes any skill nowadays. In FFXI pre-ToAU, the game took quite a bit of skill to play in a party. Now all you do is spam macros to TP and WS on pink birds with no defense. RDM's don't enfeeble(enfeebling consists of more than Dia II) anymore, instead they play Pink mage. BLM's aren't wanted anymore when in 2003-05, you wouldn't dream of not grabbing a seeking BLM. The party system in FFXI is mundane and set on easy mode. The only challenge left in XP parties is if you're playing a support class and you have a MP sink in your party.

#28 Oct 19 2009 at 8:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Grabbing 15 people and running through a zone would kind be a PL I'd think. Sounds like a blast though.
#29 Oct 22 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Your ideas work Cyiode, but only in FFXI which already has the option to turn off outside assistance.

Anyway, you really should read up on what we already know about the game. You'd probably realize that there won't be a need for PL. All of the skills and abilities available to your character come through the use of a weapon. I'm not 100% sure on this, but most likely you level up your skills or gain new ones by using your abilities granted through these weapons. They've said that instead of grinding exp you grind skill for the abilities you want to learn. I don't really think there is a way to PL your way to these abilities due to this type of interaction.

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#30 Oct 22 2009 at 3:35 PM Rating: Default
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A lot of people are suggesting there will be no way to PL in FFXIV because of the game design. Yes, SE is saying there are no "levels", but there are skill points for different weapons. SE also said there are no "jobs" but then we later found out that we have "classes" that are based on the weapon your using.

Really I feel like SE is just changing terminology around so that the game will seem different, but will still work like almost every other MMO. Instead of trying to maximize XP/hour people will be trying to maximize Weapon Skill Points/hour.

I don't see how SE is going to get around the PL issue, in FFXIV. Most likely a powerful/tough monster will give you more Weapon Skill Points if you defeat it. This means that you can have someone healing you so that you have no risk of dying. And if you make it so that you have no Weapon Skill bonus for defeating tougher monsters, then people will just fight easy monsters all day ( or bot them) in order to get massive Weapon Skills very easily.

Even though there are no "levels", someone with a high Weapon Skill, will inevitable also have to have high HP and high defense in order to handle monsters at their level.
#31 Oct 29 2009 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Even though there are no "levels", someone with a high Weapon Skill, will inevitable also have to have high HP and high defense in order to handle monsters at their level.


I really wonder how they are going to scale HP/MP/Def/etc. I don't really like the idea of "Hey, I just got even better with my sword, so NATURALLY that giant chicken can hit me for less!" I'm thinking either the community has the wrong impression of this "skill up" system, or we'll be gaining most of our stats(HP/MP/STR/DEF/etc) through armor, similar to FFTactics giving HP through armor.
#32 Oct 29 2009 at 3:42 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't like the solutions people bring up where if somebody heals your group the EXP is adjusted accordingly. Don't forget when you're coming up with ideas...that it needs to be one that can't be used as a griefing tactic. How easy would it be to ruin a party just by spam healing them and stealing their exp?

The best way to avoid this would be instancing. That could be used in multiple way. Crawl through dungeons(Like wow, start here and end there) and static dungeons(Where just like FFXI, you could camp in one spot and pull the mobs to you).
#33 Oct 29 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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people will do it regardless of how effective or ineffective it is. WoW it was super easy, FFXI... it was ineffective but doable.

I like the idea and hate it.

Great for getting through those 5 or 10 levels of a job where no one wants to see your ugly face(like thief pre-20 in FFXI, or BLM 55-65?).

But at the same time people seem obsessed with having the maximum level. With the way 14 is derived i hope it will be a little less intense and be more about progression. Games have all turned into this though, be the best and the highest...
#34 Oct 29 2009 at 11:36 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
A lot of people are suggesting there will be no way to PL in FFXIV because of the game design. Yes, SE is saying there are no "levels", but there are skill points for different weapons. SE also said there are no "jobs" but then we later found out that we have "classes" that are based on the weapon your using.


This is what I'm thinking. Even though there are no levels, it doesn't mean that power-leveling will go away. It has to be a reason your fighting tougher mobs instead of just spamming weak mobs to skill up your weapon. If you are forced to fight tougher mobs in order to skill up (aka level), then heals from outside the party will help you. Another thing Pl's did in FFXI was allow you to set up a party full of DDs. This greatly increased the amount of exp gained (mostly at the lower tier levels), because you could then regard a tank and healer, and just throw 6 dds in a party.

I have no problem with PL'n, the way it was in FFXI. I dual-boxed a lot especially on lower leveled jobs, but also on NMs and stuff like that. I wouldn't have a problem if it wasn't possible to PL either, although I don't see a way they can do this effectively without hurting an aspect of the game. I just dual-boxed because I could (ps3/xbox) and it helped a lot. Also being able to bring 2 characters to linkshell events helped my small knit linkshell as well.

As for solutions to completely stop PL'n, the only effective way I see is making everything instanced. I don't see an effective way to completely stop PL'n, inside the open world. The permission solution is already in ffxi with /blockaid, and I don't think SE want to limit a person helping you to 3 cures an hour. This hurts the aspect of people helping you if your party is in trouble, and just a friendly person helping someone, not a full blown powerleveler. The person joining your party solution, sounds like trouble if a party member accidentally hits yes, or has filters on etc. Then your whole party yelling at you because they didn't get any skill points. None of the solutions listed (outside of instancing) sound like an effective solution in a FF world based on helping each other.
#35 Oct 29 2009 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
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People really don't understand how FFXIV is shaping up. The ONLY reason we don't bring more support in FFXI parties is because of the XP per hour. In the old days, you could easily find a RDM and WHM party. Now because of ToAU and the signet changes, we tend to come DD heavy now. But if you removed the XP quota out of the picture, it would serve no purpose to kill faster. It's not like you gain more skill points for faster kills. You do however gain skill ups(levels) for curing your party more or blocking on a tank job. So it really serves no purpose to have an outside PL when you could have an army of people in your party, yet no negative penalty. So seriously, why would you need a PL ever? You can just join the group and skill up yourself. You can't do that in FFXI because a lv75 WHM would destroy XP for a low level party. So I don't understand why some people continue to think otherwise.
#36 Oct 29 2009 at 4:39 PM Rating: Default
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People really don't understand how FFXIV is shaping up. The ONLY reason we don't bring more support in FFXI parties is because of the XP per hour. In the old days, you could easily find a RDM and WHM party. Now because of ToAU and the signet changes, we tend to come DD heavy now. But if you removed the XP quota out of the picture, it would serve no purpose to kill faster. It's not like you gain more skill points for faster kills. You do however gain skill ups(levels) for curing your party more or blocking on a tank job. So it really serves no purpose to have an outside PL when you could have an army of people in your party, yet no negative penalty. So seriously, why would you need a PL ever? You can just join the group and skill up yourself. You can't do that in FFXI because a lv75 WHM would destroy XP for a low level party. So I don't understand why some people continue to think otherwise.


Nobody "needs" a PL'er, but if it helps you in any way then it will not go away. Many people have 2 accounts, or a friend's account and the 2nd account doesn't need skill points. I get what your saying, but there will be a party limit, and a reason to fight tougher mobs. In your system your describing, the more people you add to your party, the harder the mob you probably would want to fight. Once the party gets "full" then outside heals will still be effective. PL'n doesn't have to be overly effective, but if it even benefits you a little bit, it will be used.

I know that higher skill level and lower skill level players could potentially party together, but I don't think that will be the ideal way of skill leveling. I think it will be possible (maybe with a skill level sync sorta like in ffxi and level sync) but if you have to skill sync down to the lower players skill then PL'ers will still be as effective as in FFXI. I don't see how a person that has a higher skill level doesn't kill the monsters too fast for the lower skilled person, without some sort of skill level sync.

Okay, so my view is, why would the lower skill person invite the higher skilled person, knowing that he will kill the mobs faster, which decreases your chance to skill up. Now if the higher level player killing the mobs faster has no effect on the lower skilled person, then it would be the same as PL'n but just inside of the party, instead of being outside the party. If there is some sort of skill sync so you could sync your skill level down to the lower player's skill, then PL's would still exist. So either way you look at it, a higher level player has to be able to help a lower skill level character in some way, which causes powerleveling. Many people will have 1 character at the skill cap (whatever that will be), and powerleveling an 2nd character along etc. Instancing sorta stops powerleveling though, because only a certain amount of people are allowed in, and you either hurt your group size or bring no PL's.

Edited, Oct 29th 2009 6:42pm by HocusP
#37 Oct 29 2009 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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HocusP wrote:


Okay, so my view is, why would the lower skill person invite the higher skilled person, knowing that he will kill the mobs faster, which decreases your chance to skill up. Now if the higher level player killing the mobs faster has no effect on the lower skilled person, then it would be the same as PL'n but just inside of the party, instead of being outside the party. If there is some sort of skill sync so you could sync your skill level down to the lower player's skill, then PL's would still exist. So either way you look at it, a higher level player has to be able to help a lower skill level character in some way, which causes powerleveling. Many people will have 1 character at the skill cap (whatever that will be), and powerleveling an 2nd character along etc. Instancing sorta stops powerleveling though, because only a certain amount of people are allowed in, and you either hurt your group size or bring no PL's.

Edited, Oct 29th 2009 6:42pm by HocusP


Well this thread is about PL, not inviting higher skilled(weapon skills) DD's to kill faster. You can already do this in FFXI without level sync, yet the XP is ruined. For example, say you have a party in Qufim that a Lv75 WHM joined. Unless your group synced, you would get screwed on XP. However in FFXIV, you receive no penalty according to SE, so the uses of a PL aren't the same. Level sync will exist in FFXIV too, but it seems for missions and other stuff where you can cap your skills.

Speaking of PLing, I know a lot of mages used to PL because their healing skill wasn't capped. So they would head to the dunes etc. to skill up. As you probably already know, the JP aren't fond of Power levels. I've had many of them disband over the years because our leader had a PL. I'm positive that this system is in place to remove the need for PL's. You don't gain anything by having a 2nd account healing unless you were just too **** impatient to invite a few healers if the situation called for it prior to leaving the hub city. IMO, SE has figured out a way to remove the threat of PLing without Instancing. I'm not saying a healer can't walk by and cure your group, only that the healer walking by can just as easy be invited to the group.
#38 Oct 29 2009 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Allow players to PL themselves.

I had BLM/RNG/BRD to 75 and a bunch of others @ 60+ and had played on friend's characters that had RDM/WHM/WAR/SAM to 75. I played for 4+ years. I'm not trying to brag but I knew how to play the game. If I wanted to PL a job I don't see a problem with it.

You know what I never played? DRK. Would I PL that? From 1-20 sure. After that, only as a rescue healer simply because I don't know the job and PLing wouldn't help me.
#39 Oct 30 2009 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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I expect that SE will set balances to keep you on mobs that are appropriate to your skill level. For example, say at skill level 100, mobs in zone A are equally matched. We'll pretend you get a skill-up every time you do something.

Then say you come back at skill level 150. The mobs are considered too easy at that point, so you might only get a skill-up on every 4th or 5th action, and if you check out the timing, the skill-ups are rolling in noticeably slower.

Then pretend you come back at skill level 200. The mobs are "so easy", that you stop getting skill-ups. You have to fight something more challenging.

Mechanic-wise, it makes sense, is scalable, maps to your skill rather than your kills...

I think power-levelling will be forgotten, as it's currently defined. If it's capped appropriately at both ends, you'll get the best returns - not from fighting super-hard mobs - but from fighting the ones that match your skill-level. From what we've seen of the game, one-person can handle multiple equal-level mobs simultaneously, so there should be no concern over tackling whatever crowd with whatever party makeup; having more people just means the things die faster, without any reduction in each person's skill-per-hour; things dying faster should be no big deal if SE continues with the goal of vast sweeping vistas (and hopefully scales respawns to the number of mobs remaining in the zone); and party makeup won't matter, since your skill-per-hour depends solely on what YOU do.

What's a power-level for? Maybe slightly reduced resting time for melee classes, if nobody wants to play healer for the day... But it's not really a power-level at that point. Your skill-per-hour remains basically the same.

So my opinion is, skill-based system means power-levelling will provide insignificant return for either side. I expect it more likely that more experienced players will group with their friends in a role with equivalent skill, and skill-up together.
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#40 Oct 30 2009 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Well this thread is about PL, not inviting higher skilled(weapon skills) DD's to kill faster. You can already do this in FFXI without level sync, yet the XP is ruined. For example, say you have a party in Qufim that a Lv75 WHM joined. Unless your group synced, you would get screwed on XP. However in FFXIV, you receive no penalty according to SE, so the uses of a PL aren't the same. Level sync will exist in FFXIV too, but it seems for missions and other stuff where you can cap your skills.


Um, inviting a higher leveled person to help a lower level person level-up much faster is PL'n, just inside the party instead of being outside curing. Now in FFXI this was not possible because the higher level person would kill the exp given after the kill. I suspect they will set some standards to make sure that this way of PL'n is not possible in the new MMO as well. PL'n doesn't just mean healing from outside of the party, it means a higher leveled character helping a lower leveled character speed level, and this can be achieved in many ways (only curing in FFXi though). If FFXIV was like how you are describing then its the same as PL'n, but just inside the party and actually killing the mobs, instead of outside the party just healing.

This is why I think most guild leves will be instanced, because this stops PL'n in a way. If the Guild leve's are the primary way to progress (like they have said), and it is in the open world, then whats stopping you from getting a high skill level character from killing all the mobs for you and progressing at a super fast rate. This is the same as PL'n, just this time its inside the party, instead of outside curing. The point I'm trying to make is, PL'n doesn't just mean curing from outside the party (like it was in FFXI), but instead it means helping a lower level character speed-level, and can be done a multitude of ways. You just need to think outside of FFXI terms, in other games curing was not the only way to power-level somebody.

Quote:
From what we've seen of the game, one-person can handle multiple equal-level mobs simultaneously, so there should be no concern over tackling whatever crowd with whatever party makeup; having more people just means the things die faster, without any reduction in each person's skill-per-hour; things dying faster should be no big deal if SE continues with the goal of vast sweeping vistas (and hopefully scales respawns to the number of mobs remaining in the zone); and party makeup won't matter, since your skill-per-hour depends solely on what YOU do.


I havern't really seen this, and the part that I did see where one person was handling a bundle of mobs, SE admitted that the characters was really jacked up. This means that the characters you see fighting was not basic leveled characters, and their level has been risen. They also admitted that the mobs they was fighting was very basic and lower tier type mobs. Putting two and two together, of course a jacked up (skill level wise) character can handle tons of low level or basic mobs. This doesn't mean you can adventure by yourself and take out tons of mobs. Matter of fact the part I read about the game said, the mobs was dangerous and wandering out of the town would be dangerous (I forgot exactly where I read that). I think there will be more of a reason to fight tougher mobs, then what you posted. Kind of like how FFXI is, a group fight around their skill level mobs, but with more group on group fights, instead of single vs group all the time.

Edited, Oct 30th 2009 1:52pm by HocusP
#41 Oct 30 2009 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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HocusP wrote:

Um, inviting a higher leveled person to help a lower level person level-up much faster is PL'n, just inside the party instead of being outside curing. Now in FFXI this was not possible because the higher level person would kill the exp given after the kill. I suspect they will set some standards to make sure that this way of PL'n is not possible in the new MMO as well. PL'n doesn't just mean healing from outside of the party, it means a higher leveled character helping a lower leveled character speed level, and this can be achieved in many ways (only curing in FFXi though). If FFXIV was like how you are describing then its the same as PL'n, but just inside the party and actually killing the mobs, instead of outside the party just healing.

This is why I think most guild leves will be instanced, because this stops PL'n in a way. If the Guild leve's are the primary way to progress (like they have said), and it is in the open world, then whats stopping you from getting a high skill level character from killing all the mobs for you and progressing at a super fast rate. This is the same as PL'n, just this time its inside the party, instead of outside curing. The point I'm trying to make is, PL'n doesn't just mean curing from outside the party (like it was in FFXI), but instead it means helping a lower level character speed-level, and can be done a multitude of ways. You just need to think outside of FFXI terms, in other games curing was not the only way to power-level somebody.


I don't agree and I'm going to leave it at that. I suspect that if a high "leveled" person wanted to PL, they would instead be invited and synced. I'll also assume you will continue to gain skill ups because if not, it would serve no purpose. In FFXI's sync, you can't go past the blue cap for that level so skilling up is pointless unless you're far below the cap. I don't think we will have PL's in any sense because they serve no purpose. No XP levels and carefree soloing doesn't inspire PL's to flourish. I don't count an an escort as a PL either. But the funny thing is, none of this matters. If you're going somewhere dangerous, bring more people. Simple, yet effective. You don't get penalized for bringing more people so why wouldn't you want to is the question. The best part of this is thanks to the lack of XP per hour, no job class can be shunned. If only BST were in FFXIV, we would actually get a party :P
#42 Oct 30 2009 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay, so my view is, why would the lower skill person invite the higher skilled person, knowing that he will kill the mobs faster, which decreases your chance to skill up.


I believe this is the entire cornerstone of the skilling up system, and how they enable the partying system to be so flexible. 2 people party up and fight stuff appropriate for them to fight. They invite a third, over-skilled person to the group, the stuff they fight dies so much faster, and the original 2 get less skill up opportunity, as the quote says.

In a different situation, 2 people party up fighting not-very-dangerous mobs, the third person they invite is a healer. The healer eventually leaves because he doesn't get much of an opportunity to heal, and recieves no skill ups. I think this is why you won't get multiple healers per group (less chance to heal). But it still doesn't solve the type of power leveling that Shadow's talking about, unless the healing skill up's are related to effective healing (not just overhealing or # of spells cast). While they could still curebomb the underlevels with Cure 5's or whatever, it would at least limit them to the lower-skill-level increasing, kind of like a ghetto level sync.

In the same vein, "effective damage" (instead of overkill or # of times you attack) as a skillup would be similarly limiting to DD classes.

This is all really only relative to the arguement of "you won't need to PL because you can just invite the person." As far as someone just sitting outside of the group and curing...Well who knows. As far as I know, there hasn't been any confirmation on how they are handling instancing. If it's a your-group-only zone, or if only the people on that particualar Guildleve can see what they are fighting. Based on SE's style, i'm inclined to think the second part. I pray to heck that they won't have full WoW-style dungeon instances.
#43 Oct 30 2009 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
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You don't get penalized for bringing more people so why wouldn't you want to is the question.


Because it's less opportunity to get skill ups. More people fight more monsters, less people fight less monsters. I don't foresee groups of 10 people ganging up on 2-3 monsters, cuz they would die so fast there wouldn't be an opportunity to skill up.
#44 Nov 04 2009 at 11:28 PM Rating: Good
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#45 Nov 05 2009 at 1:33 PM Rating: Default
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While it's fun and cute to say "don't limit me! let me play how I want to play!" I've seen the harm it does.

I vowed long ago to never be PLed. I've stuck by that to this day. I've left numerous parties that got PLs and turned down hundreds of invites because of them. And you know what? I'm proud of myself for doing so. I don't care if you want a PL. You're right. That's YOUR decision, and good for you.

But when PLing is the norm... you know how hard it is to level for those of us who don't want to feel like we're cheating? It's very hard. Your insistence on 'playing how you want to play' has made it almost impossible to level at times if you would rather take the honorable route.

I'm sorry, but I hope they make it so any form of powerleveling isn't possible in ffxiv.
#46 Nov 08 2009 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Power Leveling isn't really that big a problem. Crappy players will be crappy players whether they get to the level cap slowly or quickly. In fact, depending on just how arduous leveling is, I'd probably rather have the option to power level my third, fourth, fifth, etc jobs left open to me.


Exactly. People have the option to not get powerleveled. One thing though, since this game wont require you to group like FFXI did powerleveling shouldn't be much of a concern.
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#47 Nov 08 2009 at 11:54 PM Rating: Default
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But when PLing is the norm... you know how hard it is to level for those of us who don't want to feel like we're cheating? It's very hard. Your insistence on 'playing how you want to play' has made it almost impossible to level at times if you would rather take the honorable route.

I'm sorry, but I hope they make it so any form of powerleveling isn't possible in ffxiv.


So on one hand you're upset because you can't play the way you want to play but would have it so others can't play the way they want to? Ok.

Honorable? This is a video game, and you're leveling. Where is there honor? If any at all, be honorable by not stealing people's loot or ******** others over.
#48 Nov 09 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Power Leveling isn't really that big a problem. Crappy players will be crappy players whether they get to the level cap slowly or quickly. In fact, depending on just how arduous leveling is, I'd probably rather have the option to power level my third, fourth, fifth, etc jobs left open to me.


Sure crappy players will be there but everyone eventually learn how to play somehow. by allowing an easy/fast/safe leveling (PL) you are removing that need.

Ganna be funny though if the whole "skill system" turn out to be "kill 50 of T or 25 VT or 10 IT to skill from 1-> 2!". coz as far as I can see ... there is no explination for "skill system" and how its ganna be implimented.. but I can be wrong ;x
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#49 Nov 11 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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mpmaley wrote:
So on one hand you're upset because you can't play the way you want to play but would have it so others can't play the way they want to? Ok.


Yes. I'm sure that seems hypocritical to you, but then, you don't see powerleveling as a problem, so you're already biased.

mpmaley wrote:
Honorable? This is a video game, and you're leveling. Where is there honor? If any at all, be honorable by not stealing people's loot or ******** others over.


Well, you're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. Just because you don't have a sense of pride about such things in no way means that I am a lesser person for feeling that way.

Some people... believe it or not... feel that playing by the intended rules of the game IS honorable. That taking shortcuts and cutting corners is something that the lazy or the weak do. As I've said before, this is my opinion... and I know, while I'm in the minority, there ARE others who feel the way I do. I've spoken with them. To you, cutting corners is okay. Good for you. I hope you have fun doing it. But I'm not going to pretend your accomplishments even compare to mine if I do it 'the right way.'

Really, I feel that if anything, you're attempting to troll me, and so I'm going to stop there. Trust me when I say I've had this conversation about a hundred times. Rarely is it because I wish to spread my honorable intentions. It's usually to defend myself against verbal assaults by people such as yourself who a) don't understand and b) don't give a ****.

Edited, Nov 11th 2009 10:01am by shanecf
#50 Nov 11 2009 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
When I played FFXI, PLing went through something of an evolution.

At first, it was heavily frowned upon. There were a number of reasons for this; some of those reasons made sense and were valid across the board, and some were just baseless whining. From a practical and direct inconvenience standpoint, there were situations where the PL trend reached a point where it was disgusting.

1) People refusing to join or leaving parties that didn't have a PL.
2) People expecting a full, balanced party to wait 20-30 minutes for a PL to arrive and refusing to fight until they got there.
3) Obnoxious ego freak power levelers dictating each and every minor tidbit of strategy to groups with the ever present threat of, "do as I say or I'm leaving."

In the case of situation 3, the obvious solution would be to just let them leave. That, of course, frequently led to situation 1.

Most of the other kvetches associated with powerleveling...most predominantly, the one about how powerleveling produces inept players...didn't hold up. Players will be inept at the level cap with or without powerleveling along the way. Given that virtually every class would spend dozens of hours in xp parties using the same abilities over and over again before they got their next new ability to "learn" how to use properly, it's not like there was a shortage of opportunity to practice and learn the game.

Powerleveling as an option wouldn't likely create too many issues in FFXIV. Only if it becomes the standard/necessity in the eyes of too many players would it start to create issues, but hopefully guildleves are designed in such a way as to reduce (if not eliminate) the potential for rampant PLing if for no other reason than to prevent that trend from emerging.
#51 Nov 12 2009 at 7:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Powerleveling as an option wouldn't likely create too many issues in FFXIV. Only if it becomes the standard/necessity in the eyes of too many players would it start to create issues, but hopefully guildleves are designed in such a way as to reduce (if not eliminate) the potential for rampant PLing if for no other reason than to prevent that trend from emerging.


Very well said, AureliusSir! ^^
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