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Where are my VIERA!?Follow

#52 Oct 24 2009 at 11:00 AM Rating: Default
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That's better, surely. At least your giving some validity to career crafters now. But your still not accepting the full flush of gamer-types in favor of your own perceptions.


No, I am giving validity to what the players are going to do most of their playtime- be it crafting, gathering or combat (combat just happens to be the feature players spend most of their time on).

People like to play games that cater to their preferences. Sims is one good example. People who play them don't care much for combat; that's why it would be silly for the devs to focus on something like a martial arts expansion for Sims with tekken-level fighting system because it's not what the players are even playing for in the first place.

People who play RPG's play them for some reason. Would it be impossible to think that this reason might be the feature that you do in the game most of your playtime, and not something trivial? It only makes sense.

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Your resources argument is non-issue.


Yeah, the development has been set in stone for sure (although it's interesting to see the devs say "we're considering implementing jumping to the game but haven't decided yet" if that's the case), but it doesn't matter when the decision had been made. The resources used for making new races could have been used in fleshing out crafting instead, no matter when the decision had been made.


Edited, Oct 24th 2009 5:05pm by Hyanmen
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#53 Oct 24 2009 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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I'd guess that something the players do 80% of their playtime would have more significance than easthetics. Maybe if the person is shallow, things like new races matter more than that, but to me that only tells about idiocy.


Speaking on behalf of the roleplaying population, I strongly disagree with these types of statements. I don't mean to pick on you directly since I see several people constantly making similar remarks. Many of us rarely spend 80% of our playtime in combat. If anything, it's probably closer to 30%. Aeshetics are extremely important to us. That doesn't make us "shallow." It makes us creative because we look beyond just fighting non-stop every day.

That being said, I think most of us can do without a vierra race due to its similarities to miqo'te. However, one or two new races of some sort(or at least the other genders) would be appreciated in order to further jump start our creativity in the roleplay realm. We roleplayers spend a large portion of our play time writing stories and implementing them within our community. That's what's important to us and I don't think our priorities matter any less than someone who would rather spend all their time grinding out levels/skills. I'm actually appalled by some of the intolerance I've been quietly viewing around here since this forum launced. You would think fellow players would be a tad bit more supportive of other groups. We roleplayers tend to be extremely supportive of other things even when they don't affect us. I don't think it's too much to ask the same in return.
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#54 Oct 24 2009 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Unfortunately most of the problems that occur in games with regards to the more important gameplay factors really come down to design judgment, and "more time" is not the solution for stupid design decisions. More time just allows developers to further flesh out their stupid ideas. With aesthetics, there's a pretty continuous return on quality. More time equals a better product.

Basically, the guys who would create new races are not going to walk on over to work on the gameplay if they suddenly don't have to make new races. Aesthetics are what they DO. It's just a question of which aesthetics they're going to be spending their time on. So if they add new races, it's not going to be the gameplay that suffers-- it will probably be fewer initial clothing options, or slightly less detailed mobs or clothes (still an aesthetic, whatever it is). That's a tradeoff I can live with, personally.

Plus, you can trash graphics whores all you want, but in the end those graphics whores are going to buy games as well (based largely on the graphics), and I hope they buy XIV even if only to quit it after two months, because that's revenue that SE can use to make my game better.

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#55 Oct 24 2009 at 11:23 AM Rating: Default
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That's what's important to us and I don't think our priorities matter any less than someone who would rather spend all their time grinding out levels/skills.


Roleplayers alone won't keep the game running. I'm sure even you get bored of the game if the gameplay is boring and dull.

You were in an extreme minority in FFXI, and while I don't know which is the case in XIV, I doubt it will change that much. While you certainly shouldn't be ignored by SE, there comes a point where catering to a very little part of the playerbase just isn't a good development decision anymore. Making a new race "or two" isn't done by snapping your fingers just like that- lots of work need be done, even for a different gender of the same race. Too much work for such a small gain? Most likely.
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#56 Oct 24 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Default
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Unfortunately most of the problems that occur in games with regards to the more important gameplay factors really come down to design judgment, and "more time" is not the solution for stupid design decisions.


The thing is, with more time developers don't need to copy existing battle systems- they can make up their own. You see lots and lots of MMO's with combat that resembles that of Asheron's Call these days.. I'm sure they could come up with something better, but that takes time- especially when starting from a scratch.

These days the only design decisions I see in regards to combat are "should we copy AC? Y/N". If they do, they will have more time to flesh out customization, add more races and other insignificant features because they don't have to put their time on thinking how the combat will work. Maybe they'll add some icing to the top like flying, but nothing remarkable, since the basics are already there.

But if they choose to not copy AC, oh boy! That takes a good chunk out of dev time in regards to other important features like eye and fingernail color customization, resources as well. It suddenly becomes incredibly complex to make a feature that is so simple in other games.
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#57 Oct 24 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Roleplayers alone won't keep the game running. I'm sure even you get bored of the game if the gameplay is boring and dull.


Absolutely true. And I also agree that the roleplaying community has very little influence over SE and their decisions, just like any other group. My comments were more aimed at the playerbase and comments made here though. For instance, the comment about people showing "idiocy" for putting aesthetics as a top priority was uncalled for I think.

Edited, Oct 24th 2009 1:33pm by ZarikOfSylph
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#58 Oct 24 2009 at 11:36 AM Rating: Default
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Absolutely true. And I also agree that the roleplaying community has very little influence over SE and their decisions, just like any other group. My comments were more aimed at the playerbase and commments made here though. For instance, the comment about people showing "idiocy" for putting aesthetics as a top priority was uncalled for I think.


Yeah, I shouldn't have used that kind of wording. Sorry about that for the RP'ers!

But still, would you play a game with bad gameplay but good aesthetics?
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#59 Oct 24 2009 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
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The thing is, with more time developers don't need to copy existing battle systems- they can make up their own. You see lots and lots of MMO's with combat that resembles that of Asheron's Call these days.. I'm sure they could come up with something better, but that takes time- especially when starting from a scratch.


Nah, I'm calling false on that. First of all, like I already pointed out, these are different people. The people that are going to be spending substantial time on new races are not the same people making decisions about the battle system.

Secondly, the developers have almost certainly already made up their mind long ago. You don't go into an undertaking like programming an MMO with just a loose idea of how you want it to operate. The major design decisions are made early, and changes tend to be relatively superfluous embellishments to the initial concept (though a very small number of games have instituted major changes). The bottom line is that time does not necessarily equal quality wherein design decisions are made. It takes judgment, and at some point, more time does not equal notably better judgment. If you think something's a good idea, you're not likely to change your mind just by thinking about it more (and in fact, will probably not even question whether it's a good idea).

And if you think a Japanese company can count on ample dissent from within the company when the idea is poor or only so-so, I think you might need to read up on collectivist societies. We'll probably get something very close to whatever Tanaka had in mind years ago. He's had plenty of time already-- I don't think him not having to assign new races to the graphics department is going to afford him enough time to make significant (positive) changes to the battle system at this point.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#60 Oct 24 2009 at 12:00 PM Rating: Default
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Nah, I'm calling false on that. First of all, like I already pointed out, these are different people. The people that are going to be spending substantial time on new races are not the same people making decisions about the battle system.


Both groups use the same resources. It might be 70%/30% now but if you give the animations team +5% resources that means a change to 65%/35% for the disadvantage of people working for the battle system.

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Secondly, the developers have almost certainly already made up their mind long ago. You don't go into an undertaking like programming an MMO with just a loose idea of how you want it to operate. The major design decisions are made early, and changes tend to be relatively superfluous embellishments to the initial concept (though a very small number of games have instituted major changes). The bottom line is that time does not necessarily equal quality wherein design decisions are made. It takes judgment, and at some point, more time does not equal notably better judgment. If you think something's a good idea, you're not likely to change your mind just by thinking about it more (and in fact, will probably not even question whether it's a good idea).


Yes, SE has made up their mind: no more races, the resources that wouldve been used for making more races are now added to some other feature.

And you act like making up a new battle system from scratch is done by only figuring out an idea about how it'll work; the programmers have to create that system still. The more time you give these programmers, the better quality the battle system might have, more substance and less glitches. Problems in programming some part of the feature that the dev couldn't see earlier need be solved.. All of this takes money and time, and the more things the programmers and devs have to create from scratch, the more money and time is required.

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And if you think a Japanese company can count on ample dissent from within the company when the idea is poor or only so-so, I think you might need to read up on collectivist societies. We'll probably get something very close to whatever Tanaka had in mind years ago. He's had plenty of time already-- I don't think him not having to assign new races to the graphics department is going to afford him enough time to make significant (positive) changes to the battle system at this point.


Yeah, Tanaka's had lots of time to figure out a battle system that would take 34,4% of resources and X number of manpower to finish in time for release. As well as a new crafting system that takes 14,7% of resources. And so on and so on. Then after all this is done (or before, whatever), we get to the races.. "oh, 4% left- well, we can't really take away any resources from other features, they're more important.. oh well, let's forget about the new races then.


Edited, Oct 24th 2009 6:01pm by Hyanmen
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#61 Oct 24 2009 at 10:23 PM Rating: Good
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@lolgaxe
I agree with your argument for level progression.
Though I meant it much more literally (more emphasis on the Level, less on the progression), in a more abstract sense you do have a point.

@Hyanmen
I think your thinking there's more parallel work going on here that there actually is. He's not developing his gameplay is any significant way at this point. He wasn't even doing that 4 years ago. It's been done since before we even knew the company was making a game. This is part of how a project gets granted the funding to finance production in the first place. It wasn't a part of the finances from Day 1.

What your assuming as basic business as usual is actually incredibly unprofessional. I understand your concern, you don't see the value in aesthetics and you don't want SE spending time working on something you don't see the value in. But in an effort to add weight to your opinion, you've inadvertently dragged SE's name through the mud. Your opinion as a paying customer has enough weight all on it's own.

It's hard to take an anonymous voices word for it when they tell you things like: There are alot of player-types and their interests aren't the same as yours. So let me have an opportunity to justify my claim. There are many systems floating around that attempt to quantify players, and games, and fun to help developers make games that are more fun for players. In effort to remain consistent with the MMO theme, I'll link Richard Bartle's 4-part system. (although more modern incarnations creep closer to double digits, let's keep things simple).

Bartle's 4 part system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test
Bartle's Essay: http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm
Bartle's 4 part system in easy to assimilate quiz format:http://www.gamerdna.com/quizzes/bartle-test-of-gamer-psychology

This is great insomuch that it references Multiplayer Games directly, and bad insomuch that it's referencing text-based MUDs specifically. Still I feel it's pertinent to an argument on Aesthetics. One would have a hard time arguing an Explorer laments how they would have preferred a nice text description of an area they're mapping instead of a beautiful vista, or the backstory cutscene would have been so much better as a script. That Socializers/Roleplayers didn't invent the RP/town set, or don't agonize over every little character customization detail. I'd argue aesthetics is intertwined with the Explorer and Socializer/Roleplayer player types on a conceptual level.*

At it's core, your perspective is based on the classic mistake. The rules are not the game. The rules are the framework in which the game is played. The act of playing the game is the player seeking their own enjoyment within that framework. Sometimes it can nothing to do with the list of features on the back of box; and that's OK.

This isn't a matter of aesthetics or gameplay.
This is a matter of being unable to recognize aestheticsas gameplay.






*(Actually, I believe aesthetics is important for killers and achievers too. But that's neither here nor there.)



Edited, Oct 25th 2009 2:24am by Zemzelette
#62 Oct 25 2009 at 12:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd guess that something the players do 80% of their playtime would have more significance than easthetics. Maybe if the person is shallow, things like new races matter more than that, but to me that only tells about idiocy.


In a FANTASY game, or a ROLE PLAY GAME, I would say that new races and the appearance of your alter ego is important, not shallow. The context of a game, especially the environment and the people who inhabit the world add so mcuh to the game and to the feel of the game! Of course it doesn't matter to some people as much as others, and yes combat is important, but that's not my concern. My concern is that this game, which is brand new, seems too similar to FFXI for my taste.

You have to ask yourself what makes up the world youre playing in? There are a lot of things that come into play but definitely one of the aspects of a "world" that stands out the most is the races. I feel like because it's the the old races, and even the same FACES, its the same thing! Why pay for something I already have? Why should I take the time to level up a new character on another world when I already have one?

And creating new races wouldn't take time out from focusing on combat, what gave you that idea? Those are two departments which are worked on separately, and even so they are saving a ton of time by recycling so much of the games races and mobs I don't think it would affect anything if they took the time to add some new characters.
#63 Oct 25 2009 at 4:56 AM Rating: Decent
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In a FANTASY game, or a ROLE PLAY GAME, I would say that new races and the appearance of your alter ego is important, not shallow


More important than, say, in a racing game. Still, to put emphasis on the appearence of your character over gameplay aspects is shallow (if you're not going to be roleplaying most of your playtime, like that one guy). Woot, now you have a bunny character with pink hair and red eyes, but the gameplay sucks so you'll get bored in 2 weeks! Let's see if the red eyes will keep you playing after that...

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My concern is that this game, which is brand new, seems too similar to FFXI for my taste.


Even though it might play completely different from it's predecessor?

Which would make it feel too similar to FFXI, the fact that it has the same races or the fact that it'd play completely same way as XI did? Think about it for a second..

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Why pay for something I already have? Why should I take the time to level up a new character on another world when I already have one?


Well, ****, I guess because the gameplay just might be fun & entertaining? Madness, I know!

Why am I even playing RPG's these days? I'm human in 99% of them, why am I bothering? I've already cleared a game being human, there's nothing else to achieve!

Interesting approach, I don't think I agree though.

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And creating new races wouldn't take time out from focusing on combat, what gave you that idea?


Resources. You not only need time to develop races, you need resources as well. They're saving money by using the old races, as well as giving the animation team more room to work on polishing the existing animations. The more races there are, the less effort can be given to each race individually, resulting in unfinished animations (the ones we could see in alpha of gamescom).

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#64 Oct 25 2009 at 10:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Woot, now you have a bunny character with pink hair and red eyes, but the gameplay sucks so you'll get bored in 2 weeks!


I am not discussing gameplay because this is a forum about the races of the game. I don't know anything about how the gameplay will be yet, but overall I was very happy with the gameplay of FFXI, so I'm not worried about it. I don't even know how we got into discussing gameplay, and I don't think it has anything to do with having a 6th race :P You wanted resources? Well it was explained already by others that when you are working on creating a game they have separate departments that work on different aspects of the game. How would that take away from combat? Theyre two different things that are worked on separately.

Anyways guys stop worrying about combat and other things! Theyre not related and I don't want to get off topic :P More than anything I am curious to see how people feel about the lack of new races because last April there was so much excitement about the Viera and Moogles in "Rapture" and it's a bit disheartening to see that SE didn't take any of that into consideration.


<3
#65 Oct 25 2009 at 11:09 AM Rating: Default
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I am not discussing gameplay because this is a forum about the races of the game. I don't know anything about how the gameplay will be yet, but overall I was very happy with the gameplay of FFXI, so I'm not worried about it. I don't even know how we got into discussing gameplay, and I don't think it has anything to do with having a 6th race :P You wanted resources? Well it was explained already by others that when you are working on creating a game they have separate departments that work on different aspects of the game. How would that take away from combat? Theyre two different things that are worked on separately.


There are no separate resources x _ X Only one bigass pile of money that is divided to different departments and as surprising as it sounds when the Race department doesn't get enough resources to make a new race, they'll have to tweak the existing ones instead.

At the same time the Important Gameplay Features department has more money to work with so they can make a new "Chain Skill" system along with "Sorcery Blast" for the combat system that will make it that much more interesting.

Edited, Oct 25th 2009 5:14pm by Hyanmen
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#66 Oct 25 2009 at 11:18 AM Rating: Default
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More than anything I am curious to see how people feel about the lack of new races because last April there was so much excitement about the Viera and Moogles in "Rapture" and it's a bit disheartening to see that SE didn't take any of that into consideration.


Ok, question:

I just watched the Rapture tech Demo two times to refresh my memory, and I see nothing in that Demo that gives anyone the slightest idea that FFXIV might consider Viera or Moogles as a playable Race. I guess what you are referring to is the massive amount of Speculation threads started by members of the site upon the release of the Rapture video? If that is so, then a lot of people should be mad at SE for the lack of Girlka and Manthra. Also, SE probably took that idea into consideration at ONE point, but never followed through. Life goes on.

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Seriously, when the "Rapture" prank broke out last year people were so excited about the possibility of having Viera or Moogle characters...So what happened SE?


They were also excited about Male Mithra and Female Galka, as well as a Tonberry Race, etc. etc. What happened? SE decided to keep it with the same kind of races, with a different look, possibly more customizable, and a bigger focus on game play. I know you hate to hear this OP but this is probably what it is coming down to.

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FFXIV is a new game, so include some new things!! So far it seems that characters aren't even customizable like they are in many new MMORPGS :(



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As for more personal changes, we know that FFXIV will facilitate the transfer of one's online avatar from Vana'diel to Eorzea by offering similar races, but how will the characters evolve from that point? Komoto states they are considering some cosmetic differences beyond equipment, such as being able to change one's hairstyle. However, they are not going to let you completely change your appearance, such as choice of face. The interviewer asks, in regards to weapon deterioration, whether characters will also physically age, but Komoto just laughs and says that is not something they are considering.


Although we will have little customization, we will still have some. ****, more then FFXI, anyway.

I don't mean to be harsh in any way..but if you really have a stomach ache just because of the Race choice for this game, then don't pick it up.





Edited, Oct 25th 2009 1:26pm by Skeptic
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#67 Oct 25 2009 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen, you seem pretty caught up on the idea that creating new races would have taken them vast amounts of time. Not the case at all. They already did rewrite settings and histories for each race, so all they really had to do was come up with new character models, which basically requires going to any of their designers and saying "Hey, come up with something." They're some of the best in the world at this, so I'd imagine it would take probably less than a week. From there, it's pretty much done.

It's really not that much of a task.



PS: I have no idea if someone already said this, I started to get a headache around the start of page 2 of this thread. :/

Edited, Oct 25th 2009 5:38pm by Zackary
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#68 Oct 25 2009 at 6:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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AnjiBunny wrote:
More than anything I am curious to see how people feel about the lack of new races because last April there was so much excitement about the Viera and Moogles in "Rapture" and it's a bit disheartening to see that SE didn't take any of that into consideration.
I feel that it was a great April Fools joke considering people seem to still fall for months later.

Edited, Oct 25th 2009 8:20pm by lolgaxe
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#69 Oct 25 2009 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
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@Hyanmen, your mistake is assuming that the resource that would go towards creating new races would be money. It's not. The resource they would use is the same pool of -time- that they're already using. They would just use the design time that they were going to use for, say, new armor, for new races instead. There would still be armor, just not as much initially-- it would get pushed back a bit.

As for Tanaka's vision, first of all, aesthetics are easy to amend and change, and he's always the one saying that if people want it, he'll add it. Gameplay is a VERY different beast.

Honestly, I'm a little baffled as to why you seem so opposed to new races after having been assured that it wouldn't substantially affect gameplay, unless you just plain don't believe us, in which case, I guess there's not much to say.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#70 Oct 25 2009 at 7:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I bet you if SE at least gave players Male Mithra and Female Galka..that this thread would not even exist. Yet it's the same races, just different ***, lol.

Edited, Oct 25th 2009 9:07pm by Skeptic
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#71 Oct 26 2009 at 5:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
he's (Tanaka) always the one saying that if people want it, he'll add it.
His track record is so great, too.



For the record, I'm not against new races. Far from it; I'd rather they had new races instead of all the old races from XI. First, Viera aren't a new race. Second, the thing about Viera is that to add them, Square would use the rest of Ivalice, and for @#%^'s sake I'm sick of Ivalice. Pretty much all signs of original content is gone once they use Ivalice. Smiley: mad

Edited, Oct 26th 2009 7:37am by lolgaxe
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#72 Oct 26 2009 at 6:02 AM Rating: Good
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#73 Oct 26 2009 at 6:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Kachi wrote:
he's (Tanaka) always the one saying that if people want it, he'll add it.
His track record is so great, too.
For tinkering with aesthetics? It actually isn't so bad.
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#74 Oct 26 2009 at 10:19 AM Rating: Decent
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My god, you know what guys, as much as I loved FFXI, I loved FFXII even more to the point where i would LOVE having an online FF set in Ivalice - I would totally take that over this game (although I'm excited as **** for this game, please don't hit me). Plus, lets be honest here, the Ivalice races are a little more interesting than the Vana'Diel/Eorzea races....just a bit :P.
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#75 Oct 26 2009 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Yet that totally defeats the purpose of the complaint "But we already had Elvaan, Hume, Mithra, and Galka in the old FF!".

Wouldn't that raise an argument of "...but that race was already in FFXII."?

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#76 Oct 26 2009 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Eh, don't get me started on Tanaka's track record. I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt that this time, he really means it, but time will quickly tell.

As for Ivalice, I'm not a fan either, maybe largely because I thought FFTA, FFTA2, and FFXII were all mediocre games, though I wasn't happy with the stylistic changes to Moogles, and not especially crazy about the other races either. But I don't have a problem with Viera, really, if for no other reason than the idea of a bunny girl seeming sort of generic to me anyway.

On the one hand, I'd rather have something more original. On the other hand, I don't like a lot of the original designs SE has come up with lately.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#77 Oct 26 2009 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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Even the FFXIII line up is mediocre, don't you think?
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#78 Oct 26 2009 at 5:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Aren't they all basically humans? I haven't looked into the game too much. I even stopped watching one of the latest trailers a couple minutes in just to not spoil any more of the game. From what I've seen, I think it looks great.
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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#79 Oct 28 2009 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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^ Apparently the last playable character revealed in FFXIII is a cross between a wolf, a man, and a woman.
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#80 Oct 31 2009 at 2:40 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen, you seem pretty caught up on the idea that creating new races would have taken them vast amounts of time.


Creating != Implementing..

If you're telling me that fully animating this race, as well as redesigning all the armors to fit the new race is done in a week, I can't help but facepalm at the thought..
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#81 Nov 02 2009 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Auruelis wrote:
^ Apparently the last playable character revealed in FFXIII is a cross between a wolf, a man, and a woman.
So it's a hermaphrodite werewolf?... that's pretty weird, though the wolf part definately interests me :p

Where did you see this?
#82 Nov 02 2009 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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KelgarVlondett wrote:
Auruelis wrote:
^ Apparently the last playable character revealed in FFXIII is a cross between a wolf, a man, and a woman.
So it's a hermaphrodite werewolf?...
Jinte?
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#83 Nov 05 2009 at 12:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I highly doubt there won't be new races. Do you honestly think at this stage SE is going to tell us everything? Square is grabbing the attention of current and ex FFXI players! What we are getting is A LOT of the familiar with small bits of different here and there. They may add new races or in the least Male Miqo'te. My money we get both.
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#84 Nov 05 2009 at 12:55 AM Rating: Decent
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If a pair of bunny ears were selectable in the character creation screen by mithras, miq'ote, or whatever the furry-friendly class is.... would this thread be completely satisfied and die?

This forum has already advocated a bust size slider, let's let our furry friends have their ear-size slider.

'nuff said.
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#85 Nov 05 2009 at 9:18 AM Rating: Default
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I think they want horny geeks to actually play, instead of staring at a semine stained screen caused by the Viera's **** apperance.
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#86 Nov 05 2009 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
There are no separate resources x _ X Only one bigass pile of money that is divided to different departments and as surprising as it sounds when the Race department doesn't get enough resources to make a new race, they'll have to tweak the existing ones instead.

At the same time the Important Gameplay Features department has more money to work with so they can make a new "Chain Skill" system along with "Sorcery Blast" for the combat system that will make it that much more interesting.


Not to be blunt, but, I'm afraid you're gwrrrrong.

Game development 101: Time is the main concern. But it's not just one big glob of time everyone "takes" from, it's X months for each of the hundred+ employees here. So dev time on something like races would be varying chunks of time from a number of folks; mostly the artists by far, with diminishing needs from programmers and designers. So each person has their own private "resource". Money is not a factor as far as the creative team is concerned (especially not when you're self published like SE) because it's all handled upstairs and already spread out to cover their wages and expenses over the development period; they're employed there for the length of the development cycle and they don't get paid more to do Mithra bikinis than they do Marbol teeth or whatever. It's very unlikely that more money will be spent on hires or out-of-house work because of this stuff, and even if it were, none of this matters because perhaps the most important thing to a good development team is:

Priority


Even if, for some reason, an inordinate amount of time (and money somehow, even though that's not a concern) were to be spent on races it's 99.9999991% unlikely that it would ever, ever touch vital or central gameplay because a clear and present basic necessity of development, whether you're a noob or an old hand, whether you're working alone or on a 200 man team, is prioritizing. They aren't just running around doing whatever strikes their fancy; there is a centralized list of every task they've got to do prioritized by importance, and they get done in that order, period. Even if there might be a time concern about a new race or multiple races, well, they're way, way, way further down the list than the effing Battle System.

New races wouldn't be competing with central gameplay systems or existing race animation quality for time. They would be more likely be on the list near adding in a few extra enemies or a quest or two, maybe near putting in a freaking mini-game or something.

So no, no matter how effing crazy things get, the push and pull on the issue would practically never be "New Races or good Core Gameplay?" The very idea is a gross exaggeration, to put it lightly.

Wall of Text, Chapter 2

On the "aesthetics VS gameplay" issue, which is, again, ridiculous because the two are not at odds with one another. I'll take Hyanmen's statement one step further and say that people who are entirely concerned with gameplay and think aesthetics don't matter at all are also shallow (by the dictionary definition, "Lacking depth of intellect, emotion, or knowledge", and insisting that only the mechanical function of something in a video game matters is certainly lacking in emotional wholeness and knowledge of the human psyche), and if anyone here thinks that any major, well-made game would be even remotely similar in quality and enjoyment whether it sported box-and-circle MS paint doodles or professional painterly illustrations as long as the gameplay was up to par is not only wrong, but I daresay quite naive.

To back up for a moment, I will say, I do think that in a game, gameplay is more important if you've got to choose. But aesthetics are an incredibly integral part of that gameplay; they're an integral part of the experience, they're absolutely vital for reward structure and extremely important for characterization. For one, we are uncontrollably creatures of multiple senses, and uncontrollably creatures of socialization and attachment. How their character looks matters to each and every player whether they know it or think so. Players that wave off character generation quickly still look at their character for hours on end and take it in, consciously or not, and players that just smash random at character creation will still see the world and experience in a better light if they like the way their characters look. Indeed, every single moment you spend in-game will be modified by how much enjoyment your character gives you.

People become attached to their characters, and they'll do so at a faster pace if they like and/or identify with their characters. And players who are attached to their characters are more likely to continue playing a game.

And the average player does care, even if they don't voice their opinion or only think about it now and then. The average player will spend some amount of time in chargen, they will be happy when they get a nice looking weapon or piece of equipment, and they will balk when they're forced to wear subligar. And for every moment they're actually thinking about it there's a thousand others where, without giving it conscious consideration, their character just seems cooler or lamer, the character is more like or less like what they want to see or want to represent them, and that matters. That adds up.

So yeah, core gameplay should come first. But there's no sane way that it wouldn't. So that's a moot point as far as I'm concerned. People want choices that reflect their identities, or their avatars, or even just what they like to look at. And that's important too. For every player that would've picked male Mithra, or Viera, or whatever, SE is losing them a margin more on attachment rate and each risks ending monthly payments earlier on than they would have.

No, obviously, SE can't make everyone happy. But asking for a new race or even some genders or something is hardly being unreasonable, and for many people FFXI's choices were lackluster to begin with.



Now don't make me come back here and have to post on this kind of thing again.
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#87 Nov 05 2009 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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I stopped playing XI recently, so the "familiar" things in XIV are only reminding me of the crappy costumer service/treatment (lolwut mini expansions? bans? wtfbell updates? etc.) XI has been providing. If they do treat this new game as a more up-dated expansion to XI no amount of gameplay or underdressed women will keep me playing. Of course they also said that development of this title started way before they announced it, so I doubt there's much they'll do to change things, more so if it means back tracking.

I am in agreement that the races in Ivalice had more ump to them also, may be due to the better experiences I had with its respective games, may be not, but as many stated, the positive response to the prank speaks for itself.

How about this comparison? Just for sh*ts and giggles.

Ivalice - Humes, Bunnies, Mice, Lizards, Hipppos... ?, Dogs... ?
XI - Humes, Fat humes with tails, Tall skinny humes, midget humes, cats.

=)
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