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To people who play both WoW and FFXIVFollow

#52 Nov 06 2009 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
Shazaamemt wrote:
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If everyone did what you seem to want them to do, all responses would be answering the OP's question and that would be it.


100% right. I think I might have a new sig.


You missed a couple of words in your quote.
#53 Nov 06 2009 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Ive enjoyed reading all your post's so far even tho 80% of them arnt on topic lol.
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#54 Nov 06 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
DjinnRB wrote:
Ive enjoyed reading all your post's so far even tho 80% of them arnt on topic lol.


They're on a tangent, but they aren't off topic. Itemization is a huge component of any MMO. Poor itemization either through the options given and/or the process involved will kill an MMO. Hence, the discussion. Shazaament just doesn't like it when people discuss things he's not interested in so he tries to "re-rail" threads to his liking (and then goes on to contribute to the "derailment").
#55 Nov 06 2009 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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Naxx is ~1yr old? That's a horrible analogy for the point you're trying to make. Salvage/Einherjar/Nyz are ~2yrs old and have way better staying power (I personally am in a group that does dyna for money, but there are plenty of people that still do it for the worthwhile items that drop there that you can't get analogs for anywhere else too). How many people do you see still doing Sunwell Plataeu or the Black Temple every week? (something like Molten Core would be closer still, but people occasionally solo that as a joke) WoW has all this great previous expansion content that just gets wasted every time they update, and you're left with the tediousness of "here's the newest content, if you want to get stronger this is the only way to go about it whether you enjoy this particular raid or not". No variety, no choice, just bleeeh.


It's all a matter of progression style. According to lore, Illidan is already defeated at Black Temple, and Kil'Jaeden at Sunwell Plateau. Yogg'Saron was defeated at Ulduar, and once next patch hits, Anub'arak has been defeated at Trial of the Crusader. That's how the progression works. The game is designed around having to become much stronger in order to take down the next baddie.

It's okay not to like the system. There's parts I don't enjoy about it. Do I hate how often gear can be upgraded? To a certain extent, yes. Do I think old raids should stopped being run? No, but why bother updating everything? All the time spent updating old instances can be put into new content. Personally, I'd rather see new content, versus being able to still grind out Black Temple for a pair of boots.
#56 Nov 06 2009 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good
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mhbma wrote:


Wow was fun, and I enjoyed it. And I always considered it just a game. It was fast paced to me, compared to playing ffxi before it. I enjoyed the pvp system of wow the most. I played an undead mage, made gladiator title in season 3, 4 and 5 of arena. Wow's game mechanics i really enjoyed over ffxi. But... I didn't enjoy the way my character in wow felt almost "generic" I gueess you can call it. It was way too easy to just create another toon at any time, it was hard at times for me to keep track of some friends, because they had so many characters. One thing I really enjoyed about ff, was the community feel to the game. There was names and faces I saw daily on ffxi, for years, people that I had played with at times, and then forgot about for a while, then ran into again, only to talk about old times, leveling here, or doing quests together at this time. I never had this feeling in wow.


When I quit wow, about 3 months ago, it was just over for me. I had fun, time to move on, I was bored. When I quit ffxi about 2 years ago, it was time for me to move on, but I felt like I was moving out of a neighborhood i had grown up in for years. I would miss friends, people i didn't even know, but saw almost everyday, the music, the world, the enviroment. Square has magic and poetry in the worlds and stories they create, i've yet to see another company rival them. I will never forget my time spent on ffxi.


These two paragraphs really sum up my feelings between the two games as well. Very good post, thank you for sharing.
#57 Nov 07 2009 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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Jubs wrote:
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Naxx is ~1yr old? That's a horrible analogy for the point you're trying to make. Salvage/Einherjar/Nyz are ~2yrs old and have way better staying power (I personally am in a group that does dyna for money, but there are plenty of people that still do it for the worthwhile items that drop there that you can't get analogs for anywhere else too). How many people do you see still doing Sunwell Plataeu or the Black Temple every week? (something like Molten Core would be closer still, but people occasionally solo that as a joke) WoW has all this great previous expansion content that just gets wasted every time they update, and you're left with the tediousness of "here's the newest content, if you want to get stronger this is the only way to go about it whether you enjoy this particular raid or not". No variety, no choice, just bleeeh.


It's all a matter of progression style. According to lore, Illidan is already defeated at Black Temple, and Kil'Jaeden at Sunwell Plateau. Yogg'Saron was defeated at Ulduar, and once next patch hits, Anub'arak has been defeated at Trial of the Crusader. That's how the progression works. The game is designed around having to become much stronger in order to take down the next baddie.

It's okay not to like the system. There's parts I don't enjoy about it. Do I hate how often gear can be upgraded? To a certain extent, yes. Do I think old raids should stopped being run? No, but why bother updating everything? All the time spent updating old instances can be put into new content. Personally, I'd rather see new content, versus being able to still grind out Black Temple for a pair of boots.
It was good for "lore" but it's severely limiting gameplay/variety wise, which I feel is more important. I believe it's possible to make progressively harder events without completely trivializing old content and resorting to carrot on a stick BS. As a new player just getting to WoW endgame all I could think was "so, five years after release, and this is all there is to do?"



sidenote: rate ups for not being a **** and resulting to personal attacks just because I don't agree with you ^^
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#58 Nov 07 2009 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, there's a few ideas being kicked around in regards to keeping old content relevant. Most of the time MMOs don't really put their full backing into it creating a lackluster result that has a sort of self-fulling prophecy of mediocrity. Or the solution is appealing to one type of player, and not all of them.


Like* FFXI's AF+1, where you turned in your AF and with some trinkets earned from endgame activities you were rewarded with an upgraded version of that piece. Pity, the quality of the gear just wasn't up to snuff, being overshadowed by not only the previous status quo but alternate sets rewarded from the same activity in the same patch.

Another example is Aion's ability to take the stats of one armor and overwrite it to the model of another. Armor -and thus content- remains relevant for Aesthetics reasons. It's an interesting take, but it's not something players focused on strength can really buy into. And in a PvP game that attracts that player-type in droves, no less.

WoW actually has the better example of this in their Achievement system and Collectibles. People really do run through the Stratholme instance daily to get their skeleton-horse mount, and spend hours clicking on eggs hoping for a pretty dress to have the word "Noble" over their head. While this is appealing to more player-types than Aion can boast, it still leaves the more strength-focused individual out in the cold.


They're all good little inklings that the industry is - at least - trying. But I don't think anybody's really hit the nail on the head.


(*XI's probably not the best example of this, but it's an easy thing to reference.)


Edited, Nov 7th 2009 12:34pm by Zemzelette
#59 Nov 07 2009 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
It was good for "lore" but it's severely limiting gameplay/variety wise, which I feel is more important. I believe it's possible to make progressively harder events without completely trivializing old content and resorting to carrot on a stick BS. As a new player just getting to WoW endgame all I could think was "so, five years after release, and this is all there is to do?"



sidenote: rate ups for not being a **** and resulting to personal attacks just because I don't agree with you ^^


I'll agree with after you've done most or all of the endgame, the variety of content drops. You can only run so many heroics before you run out of loot you need from badges. Or Naxx. Or OS. Etc. With new badges released every patch, you get new badge loot, new reasons to go back. Doesn't mean its any less...stale, so to speak, but you go back.

BC had some of the best raids, in my opinion. Sunwell was very well done. The Kael'Thas fight(pre-nerf -__-) was by far the most difficult fight I've ever experienced. Do I wish that Blizzard would still make instances like this relevant? You better believe it. But, personally, I've already done them. Right now, in game, I have no reason to go back and do them, minus an achievement that really doesn't mean anything. Same goes for the original raids. Although, they did remake Onyxia to be lv80, which I thought was really cool.

If they gave us incentive to go back and do those old raids, I think I would, but it doesn't tie into how they do progression.

If FFXIV manages to find a balance between how FFXI and WoW does progression, I'll probably never look back at either FFXI or WoW.

sidenote: Wouldn't be any fun posting if you agreed with me. :p

edit:

Quote:
Like* FFXI's AF+1, where you turned in your AF and with some trinkets earned from endgame activities you were rewarded with an upgraded version of that piece. Pity, the quality of the gear just wasn't up to snuff, being overshadowed by not only the previous status quo but alternate sets rewarded from the same activity in the same patch.


WoW did this back in Vanilla, with the old blue dungeon sets. If you had the piece, did a quest, got some materials, you could upgrade it. I thought it was really cool, and really wished they had continued with that trend. Unfortunate they didnt. :(

Edited, Nov 7th 2009 4:02pm by Jubs
#60 Nov 08 2009 at 2:59 AM Rating: Default
Jubs wrote:
WoW did this back in Vanilla, with the old blue dungeon sets. If you had the piece, did a quest, got some materials, you could upgrade it. I thought it was really cool, and really wished they had continued with that trend. Unfortunate they didnt. :(


They are continuing with it. Currently, there are three sub-tiers of tier 9 raid sets. The first is purchased with Emblems of Triumph for a base amount (30 emblems for shoulders and hands, 50 for head, chest, and legs.) The second is also purchased with emblems at a 50% cost increase (45 for shoulders/hands, 75 for head/chest/legs) + a trophy that can only be earned in ToC25 and ToGC10/25 (each boss drops one trophy). The third tier is bought with tokens like most of the other raid set pieces, with those tokens coming only from the last boss in ToGC10/25. The downside is that it's not an upgrade system...if you spend 50 emblems on base T9 legs and want the ones a tier up, you have to save up another 75 emblems and get a trophy.

With T10 gear, you'll be able to buy the base set for <x> Emblems of Frost, and then you can upgrade that gear directly by turning it in along with a trophy/token from "harder" version of the Icecrown raid. It'll be nice to only have to earn the emblems once and then upgrade as you progress through the content.
#61 Nov 09 2009 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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Jubs wrote:
Also, badges are there to help get the newer players/fresh 80s enough gear to enter the raids at a quicker pace, but they also don't give you every single piece. As for tier sets, they've never allowed more than 2 pieces of any tier set to be obtained through badges, and with T9, you need an item from 3.2's 25 man raid in order to purchase it in the first place.


T9 gives you every single pieces, and you DON'T need any drop to get T9, any of the pieces. The Trophy enable you to get T9.25, and the drop from 25 HC gives T9.5

So yeah next patch we will have everyone and their grandma running around with T9 full set. 1 or 2 pieces is fine, I can agree on it, but full set, they might as well start doing buy one get one free next.
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#62 Nov 09 2009 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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T9 gives you every single pieces, and you DON'T need any drop to get T9, any of the pieces. The Trophy enable you to get T9.25, and the drop from 25 HC gives T9.5


Thanks for correcting me. Found this out last night -__-

Quote:
So yeah next patch we will have everyone and their grandma running around with T9 full set. 1 or 2 pieces is fine, I can agree on it, but full set, they might as well start doing buy one get one free next.


So? Bad players will be bad players, regardless of the gear equipped.
#63 Nov 10 2009 at 12:56 AM Rating: Default
crissagrym wrote:
Jubs wrote:
Also, badges are there to help get the newer players/fresh 80s enough gear to enter the raids at a quicker pace, but they also don't give you every single piece. As for tier sets, they've never allowed more than 2 pieces of any tier set to be obtained through badges, and with T9, you need an item from 3.2's 25 man raid in order to purchase it in the first place.


T9 gives you every single pieces, and you DON'T need any drop to get T9, any of the pieces. The Trophy enable you to get T9.25, and the drop from 25 HC gives T9.5

So yeah next patch we will have everyone and their grandma running around with T9 full set. 1 or 2 pieces is fine, I can agree on it, but full set, they might as well start doing buy one get one free next.


You mean several weeks after the next patch. The raiders will already be running around in 4pc T10 by then and will be working on upgrading to the higher versions of T10 and filling out their non-set pieces from raids drops...something the non-raiders won't have access two. One ring, one necklace, one trinket, a class-specific accessory, and 5pc T9 makes for a nicely geared character. To fully round out the package, however, you need proper weapon(s), cloak, bracers, belt, boots, and another ring and trinket.
#64MrSoloDolo, Posted: Nov 10 2009 at 5:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) WoW sucks...... Lol j/k ... But if ur a wow player and didnt play ffxi ... I reeeele doubt ffxiv will b like WoW at all.. And if u plan on playing ffxiv.. ur prolly not going to have time to play wow... Based on ffxi time needed to get anywhere : / .. They say their fixing that but i really doubt it lol
#65 Nov 15 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Crissagrym wrote:
So yeah next patch we will have everyone and their grandma running around with T9 full set. 1 or 2 pieces is fine, I can agree on it, but full set, they might as well start doing buy one get one free next.


I can't decide if this makes me happy or sad. On one hand you have the elitists(maybe its just my server) who won't even respond to you unless you link an achievement and gearscore. You explain to them that you haven't run 'insert instance/raid here' and they don't even want to talk to you. How do I progress through the game and upgrade gear if I'm expected to already have enough gear just to be CONSIDERED for a group? It won't be long before you see the following in LFG/trade shouts....

"LFM 25Naxx QUICK run 6k+ gearscore onry PST class/race, achievement, A/S/L, height, weight, eye and hair color, shoe size and SSN. Must provide 3 non-related references!"


On the other hand it'll put everyone back on a little more even ground. The people in raiding guilds will be geared out of course, but those who can't dedicate x hours a day for a few days a week will still be able to grind out somewhat comparable gear. I also like the challenge of really difficult endgame content, but at the same time its nice to be able to at least be given an opportunity to experience it. Balance is always a good thing.

MrSoloDolo wrote:
I reeeele doubt ffxiv will b like WoW at all.. And if u plan on playing ffxiv.. ur prolly not going to have time to play wow... Based on ffxi time needed to get anywhere : / .. They say their fixing that but i really doubt it lol


They've said they're working toward an experience that will appeal to both hardcore and casual players. I believe it would be in their best interest to do that if they'd like alot of subscribers. XI and XIV are going to be different monsters and I see alot of people drawing on the similarities of the games based solely on what little we know thus far. I'm hoping that turns out to be a mistake.

Back on topic I play XI and WoW currently with no plans to change that. I like that there are alot of differences between the two. When XIV comes out it'll probably be a decision between that and XI. I'll still play WoW regardless of which FF I choose.
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#66 Nov 15 2009 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I think it's just your server.

Obviously there are groups like that in every server, especially PUG for ToC10/25, without reasonable gear it really isn't a good idea to briong someone in. And a lot of the fights involve people knowing what they doing, so bringing in someone that knows what they doing can really make a difference.

And there is always HCs that can bring to somewhat close to the level of gear required. With the 2x T8.5 and some gear from ToC5 HC you should be able to start running ToC, obviously even with the gear, you will still have the problem of "link achiv" and "need to know tacts", but that won't change even you can get gear easier or not.

It will always be hard to please both casual and hardcore gamers at the same time. Content easy or hard? Too easy the hardcore players will get bored, too hard the casual gamers will go "but we want to experience everything". Gear, too easy to get the hardcore people will get bored, especially a lot of the hardcore players like to have nicer gear not only because they are good, but also the show off factor that other people dont have it, if gear get handed out too easily they will lose that epeen factor and get bored. And if too hard to get casual gamer will complain cause they want decent gear even they cannot raid and such. a balance in the middle might not be a good thing either, if done wrongly you would just **** both groups off instead.

I myself are all in for hardcore content, with the best drop in the new raid (not the new 5 man) only, and I hope the fight will be hard, sure might take us a while to eventually clear it, but it will be nice once you cleared it and you know it isnt given to you on a silver platter.
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#67 Nov 16 2009 at 2:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Zichu wrote:
I don't play WoW anymore.... I played it for 2 months, but that was an on and off thing. I got bored of the repetitive kill, level, skin, mine, auction, rich system.... It was just that throughout my time of playing... I heard theres meant to be millions of players, I saw like 10 - 20 in my whole 2 months of playing.


You never saw more than 10-20 players?

You never went to Ironforge/Orgrimmar?

*Liar*
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#68Shazaamemt, Posted: Nov 16 2009 at 4:18 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) With this much activity, you would almost think that Alla would make a WoW site. Yep, another full page of just discussing tiers of armor from WoW. Not that I can't go to the official Bliz site for that, or head over to alla's WoW site, or even just pop onto the sister site WoWhead. Or if I am feeling frisky go to WoW-Wiki, OR JUST TYPE WOW INTO THE **** BROWSER BAR AND CLICK THE FIRST THING THAT POPS UP.
#69 Nov 16 2009 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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For one, I couldn't agree more with the post from page 1 by mhbma.

One of the greatest achievements of XI was the fact that not only were they your fellow adventurers, but they were as well your companions. Very rarely do I connect with players on WoW like was possible with XI. Due to my play time (later at night) I even became companions with a few Japanese players as well, which was quite an experience! Towards the end of my playing days I would sit in my LS all night just to chat with other members. In WoW there is a very select community that even knows the basics of social interaction it seems and the gameplay further permits this type of behavior. Half the time people don't even respond if their party is full or I don't meet their requirements. I'm hoping XIV brings back this same community feel and if they are able to I'm 100% with them.

*about the item tangent*

I really think with SE's style of skill over gear is going to play a big part in how these gear updates are dealt. Also, based on some of the hints so far, it seems that similar gear can be obtained by the casual player and a "+1" version is available for the hardcore players. This allows the more casual player opportunities to enter end game content somewhat geared....not only that but a skilled player will still probably be able to out damage a geared player (to a certain extent).
#70 Nov 18 2009 at 1:39 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
One of the greatest achievements of XI was the fact that not only were they your fellow adventurers, but they were as well your companions. Very rarely do I connect with players on WoW like was possible with XI. Due to my play time (later at night) I even became companions with a few Japanese players as well, which was quite an experience! Towards the end of my playing days I would sit in my LS all night just to chat with other members. In WoW there is a very select community that even knows the basics of social interaction it seems and the gameplay further permits this type of behavior. Half the time people don't even respond if their party is full or I don't meet their requirements. I'm hoping XIV brings back this same community feel and if they are able to I'm 100% with them.


I agree, to an extent. People I met with on FFXI I tended to be much nicer, and were easier to establish bonds with. It wasn't out of the ordinary to join a party and end up with half the group in your LS by the end of the party.

But, it's due to population. If you were a jerk on FFXI, people found out. People remembered. You weren't random shmoe #1254892. You were "Burtonsnow," the guy who was a complete jerk the entire time, and bailed after you leveled. People were nearly required to be courteous, at least in the beginning, if they wanted to get anywhere.

WoW, on the other hand, has an enormous population. Nearly all the morons I come across I never see in a random group ever again, and I couldn't tell you the name of a single one of them. The one's I do remember, however, are extremely good at being an ***. They'll attract similar asses, and form one huge ***. It's easier to ninja something in WoW, and be forgotten the next day, then FFXI. It's all about population size, not necessarily the community/gameplay.
#71 Nov 18 2009 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmm, I do see your point, it was more a nice out of necessity than anything else. At the end of the day I'd rather have people be nice, whatever their reason for being nice was.

On the other hand, you do meet mature and immature people for both games, I just seem to notice the ratio much higher on WoW. In XI if I didn't know something people would explain it. WoW you are expected to know and if you don't know you are a noob. I'm even afraid to ask at times for fear of getting booted from my party just because people are too lazy to explain the fight.
#72 Nov 18 2009 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Jordster wrote:
Zichu wrote:
I don't play WoW anymore.... I played it for 2 months, but that was an on and off thing. I got bored of the repetitive kill, level, skin, mine, auction, rich system.... It was just that throughout my time of playing... I heard theres meant to be millions of players, I saw like 10 - 20 in my whole 2 months of playing.
You never saw more than 10-20 players?

You never went to Ironforge/Orgrimmar?

*Liar*

Sounds like someone was playing on a Private Server... *sigh*

burtonsnow wrote:
Hmm, I do see your point, it was more a nice out of necessity than anything else. At the end of the day I'd rather have people be nice, whatever their reason for being nice was.

On the other hand, you do meet mature and immature people for both games, I just seem to notice the ratio much higher on WoW. In XI if I didn't know something people would explain it. WoW you are expected to know and if you don't know you are a noob. I'm even afraid to ask at times for fear of getting booted from my party just because people are too lazy to explain the fight.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

It's not necessarily a problem with the playerbase. The problem is that WoW has very large zone-wide chat channels, and even global channels inside cities. That gives the random @#%^ troll a place to have a voice... and people feed the troll, and more trolls help back them up. It's like that one person you find every now and then in FFXI doing something stupid like running around using shout to say obscenities or trollish things. The difference in FFXI, is that shout range is limited.

I'm sure we all know the Greater Internet Jerkass Theory:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/
Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Jerkass

FFXI's limited chat channels removes the Audience from the equation. And that makes all the difference.

Edited, Nov 18th 2009 3:31pm by Karelyn
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#73 Nov 18 2009 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

It's not necessarily a problem with the playerbase. The problem is that WoW has very large zone-wide chat channels, and even global channels inside cities. That gives the random @#%^ troll a place to have a voice... and people feed the troll, and more trolls help back them up. It's like that one person you find every now and then in FFXI doing something stupid like running around using shout to say obscenities or trollish things. The difference in FFXI, is that shout range is limited.

I'm sure we all know the Greater Internet Jerkass Theory:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/
Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Jerkass

FFXI's limited chat channels removes the Audience from the equation. And that makes all the difference.



That does make sense, but it still doesn't explain people not willing to explain a fight very quickly to me. Or belittling me because I don't happen to have all ilvl 245 gear.
#74 Nov 18 2009 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Meh trolling exists in FFXI too, but it's more confined to the shout radius around the Action House. And everyone in WoW knows trolls hang out in the city trade chat channel, which you can just remove.

And like the trade chat channel, you can remove every other channel so I don't see why there is such a fuss being made about zone wide channels.

How can an option be bad if it's removeable...
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#75 Nov 18 2009 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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burtonsnow wrote:
That does make sense, but it still doesn't explain people not willing to explain a fight very quickly to me.
Bad group leader. Most people don't have leadership skills, and unfortunately in a non-guild/linkshell group, you are unlikely to have a strong leader. Fortunately, that doesn't matter most of the time in either game.

Quote:
Or belittling me because I don't happen to have all ilvl 245 gear.

Happened in FFXI too. Try creating a new character, and try to get a group in the Dunes before you have a subjob. See how many people make fun of you.

Or heck, just use a subjob that's a few levels short of max.

It happens.
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#76 Nov 18 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Regardless of how much you dispute it, my points is there is more of a community feel in XI than there ever will be in WoW. Whatever the reasons for that may be (and there is always an explination), I hope XIV is able to carry that over.


With things you cannot control (such as is gear drops or not being able to get a SJ yet), you shouldn't be made fun of...if you didn't level your SJ, that is something you can control and should control, so do something about it.
#77 Nov 18 2009 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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burtonsnow wrote:
With things you cannot control (such as is gear drops or not being able to get a SJ yet), you shouldn't be made fun of...if you didn't level your SJ, that is something you can control and should control, so do something about it.

That's the point right there. I've had several pieces of subpar gear for a while in WoW, and it's out of my control. And nobody makes fun of me. In fact, for my history of playing WoW, I can never think of someone making fun of my gear, even if it was behind. People understand 1-3 pieces of gear being subpar.

It's when a person is running around in very inadequate gear, who starts throwing a temper tantrum when people won't invite them to a raid which they have no chance of surviving in, that they get made fun of.

For the most part, if someone is making fun of your gear, they are either trolling, or you asked for it by not understanding your limitations, and then acting bratty when people attempt to explain your limitations. Nobody is going to make fun of you unless you are underleveled or undergeared for something you are asking to do. And then really, the burden is on you.

For yet another FFXI comparison, if you are level 25, and trying to get an XP Party for Crawler's Nest, yeah, there is a pretty good chance that people are going to make fun of you, especially if after people have explained to you that you can't do it, you still insist that you can.
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#78 Nov 18 2009 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Regardless of how much you dispute it, my points is there is more of a community feel in XI than there ever will be in WoW. Whatever the reasons for that may be (and there is always an explination), I hope XIV is able to carry that over.


For me there is no dispute about this. The only strong community I had in WoW was the linkshell that moved together from FFXI to WoW + rl friends.

The weak community in WoW I blame fully on the fact that you only need to start to work together when you reach endgame or you'll be (even more) bored out of your mind. So for FFXIV I really really hope that "casual" solo play won't make you able to reach endgame.
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#79 Nov 18 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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Personally I see the community as what you make of it. If you want to be in a group in either game you can be. And actually, I think it's harder to find a good community that you actually play with in FFXI than in WoW. Most people in FFXI have several linkshells used for various purposes. The one they actually connect with is their social linkshell that they don't really do much with besides talk or the occasional group. The other linkshells are all oriented towards the acquisition of gear and can be very cut-throat, very negative.

Since you can only have one guild in WoW at a time they tend to be all-purpose, including socially. They generally tend to be more civil than most of the linkshells in FFXI except, perhaps, for the social linkshells.
#80 Nov 18 2009 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Yogtheterrible wrote:
Personally I see the community as what you make of it. If you want to be in a group in either game you can be. And actually, I think it's harder to find a good community that you actually play with in FFXI than in WoW. Most people in FFXI have several linkshells used for various purposes. The one they actually connect with is their social linkshell that they don't really do much with besides talk or the occasional group. The other linkshells are all oriented towards the acquisition of gear and can be very cut-throat, very negative.

Since you can only have one guild in WoW at a time they tend to be all-purpose, including socially. They generally tend to be more civil than most of the linkshells in FFXI except, perhaps, for the social linkshells.


I tend to agree with this...but if you also think about it, for the most part those in your social LS are also part of your dyanmis etc etc. To even expand upon that, for the most part you have probably exp'd in the dunes with people from your social LS. So not only do you have a connection from the beginning of the game (whereas with WoW I didn't connect with anyone until 70), but you have multiple places of interaction....in all it creates for a stronger team with more skill and more community. I hope something similar to this multiple guild/LS is still possible.


I'm not sure if my experience is solely because I started XI at NA release and had many people leveling with me or because simply XI requires more teamwork and skill. I also started WoW right around BC, left for a year and came back during WoTLK, so that could be a contributing factor, but even at that people didn't care to explain anything to me, I basically learned it all myself, where in XI people were more than willing to not only help but walk through it with you.
#81 Nov 18 2009 at 7:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Yogtheterrible wrote:
Personally I see the community as what you make of it. If you want to be in a group in either game you can be. And actually, I think it's harder to find a good community that you actually play with in FFXI than in WoW. Most people in FFXI have several linkshells used for various purposes. The one they actually connect with is their social linkshell that they don't really do much with besides talk or the occasional group. The other linkshells are all oriented towards the acquisition of gear and can be very cut-throat, very negative.

You know, I hope we can equip multiple linkshells at the same time in FFXIV. That would truly be amazing.

I always remembered being torn between using multiple friend's linkshells in FFXI.

For that matter, I have the same problem in WoW... friends spread between many different guilds. Actually, heck, that problem has been in every MMO I've ever played.

Edited, Nov 18th 2009 8:17pm by Karelyn
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#82 Nov 19 2009 at 5:31 AM Rating: Good
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RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
Regardless of how much you dispute it, my points is there is more of a community feel in XI than there ever will be in WoW. Whatever the reasons for that may be (and there is always an explination), I hope XIV is able to carry that over.


For me there is no dispute about this. The only strong community I had in WoW was the linkshell that moved together from FFXI to WoW + rl friends.

The weak community in WoW I blame fully on the fact that you only need to start to work together when you reach endgame or you'll be (even more) bored out of your mind. So for FFXIV I really really hope that "casual" solo play won't make you able to reach endgame.


Part of me wonders if the fact that in FFXI you can have Multiple "Guilds" as compared to WoW where you are only allowed one Static "Guild" effects the social dynamic in way to promote or discourage meeting others.

In FFXI you can run into someone you know that possesses the same Shells as you do. Shells are specifically designated for certain purposes. In WoW, the Guild you are in is the guild you will be doing activities with until you leave it.

WoW style guilds promote a system of elitism and anti-social behavior that I always found counter-productive. Typically you will pick up a Guild in the starter areas, meet people and then once you hit end game you drop it in place of a guild that only does endgame. In FFXI if you want to reunite with those people you just swap pearls.

Tigole (Aka Jeff Kaplan, aka WoW lead designer) was an ******* in Everquest. He was the one that coined the term "Raid or Die" and actually had an entire website devoted to Guild drama and calling out others that tainted his enormous ego. The guild system and the ever existent formula of "The top %2" was planned from the begining with his help. WoW was designed with the Epeen in mind and more so with the entire premise of "Chasing the dragon" progression wise. There will ALWAYS be a guild that is at top. I can name a few Linkshells that do really cool things or are at the top of their game in whatever it is they do, but outside of my server I can't and you can still find those players hanging out in their social LSs. WoW does not have that diversity, nor the option if a player wanted it.
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#83 Nov 19 2009 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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WoW style guilds promote a system of elitism and anti-social behavior that I always found counter-productive. Typically you will pick up a Guild in the starter areas, meet people and then once you hit end game you drop it in place of a guild that only does endgame. In FFXI if you want to reunite with those people you just swap pearls.


It's not the guild system that promotes elitism and anti-social behavior. It's the players in the guild system. 90% of the guilds I have been in on WoW have been extremely social, to the point where we'd try and raid with people who were completely unprepared. The top guilds tend to stink of elitism simply because they are full of people who have every intention of being "the best."

Half my friends on my server are in a different guild than myself. You don't need several guilds/pearls to communicate. I group/chat with these people on a daily basis, and none of us feel the need to switch guilds to do so.

Believe it or not, I like the option of having several guilds/pearls, and hope it stays, but it's not a necessary thing to communicate.

Quote:
Tigole (Aka Jeff Kaplan, aka WoW lead designer) was an @#%^ in Everquest. He was the one that coined the term "Raid or Die" and actually had an entire website devoted to Guild drama and calling out others that tainted his enormous ego. The guild system and the ever existent formula of "The top %2" was planned from the begining with his help. WoW was designed with the Epeen in mind and more so with the entire premise of "Chasing the dragon" progression wise.


Good 'ol Tigole is no longer Lead Designer(thank the heavens). WoW has become much more forgiving(aka easy), as a result, and all the content released so far is puggable(at least on my server). Blizzard has steered away from "The top 2%," since the other 98% of the playerbase wasn't seeing the content. I just hope FFXIV takes a similar approach.
#84 Nov 19 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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One of the points I haven't seen mentioned during all this community talk is how the age/maturity levels differ between FFXI and WoW.

WoW's accessibility is the primary reason for its elitism and poor community. Two out of three people you run into are teenagers (or younger!) who think it's acceptable to behave immaturely. It's as bad as XBox Live, and there really aren't any consequences for it. That sort of behavior is the norm in WoW, and there are enough of them that being mature can be disadvantageous; I've been kicked from trash-talking groups for using proper grammar, of all things. The PvP-centric environment and Horde vs. Alliance setup also perpetuate the competitive elitist behavior by making conflict and competition the primary staples of the game. Even the setting, Azeroth, is not a place of sophistication, and in the few areas whose NPC inhabitants are civilized, they treat you like some savage only good for your quest-finishing abilities.

FFXI is quite different. Four out of five people I run into are college age at minimum, or at least act like they have an education. Very often I run into people who are married, sometimes who play with their spouses and even have kids. Almost everything in the game focuses on teamwork and community, and while elitism does exist in the form of "You need the best gear at your level or you can't be in my party," I find this to be bred from the game's difficulty moreso than simply "I'm better than you" mentality. As a previous poster mentioned, because the population is smaller in FFXI, you're very likely to be remembered for being a douchebag (we can all name at least one notorious soul on our servers), and that can dramatically impact your ability to play the game at all.

FFXI is built on a premise of maturity, insofar as being immature is guaranteed to hinder your ability to play the game, and being mature is often the best and only way to get ahead. WoW is not necessarily built on the premise of immaturity, but being immature really doesn't have a negative impact on your ability to play, and being mature seems to boast very little reward. Of course WoW has its exceptions, but that's all they are: exceptions.
#85 Nov 20 2009 at 3:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Believe it or not, I like the option of having several guilds/pearls, and hope it stays, but it's not a necessary thing to communicate.


In WoW you got the option to create your own channels, which are basically linkshell/guild chat without the pearl/guildname above your head. The only problem however is that leader options (like setting password) may shift when people log off so you really have to be sure that everyone gets along with everyone. But I think it something maybe you might like Jubs (if you haven't tried it out already).
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#86 Nov 20 2009 at 4:01 AM Rating: Good
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In WoW you got the option to create your own channels, which are basically linkshell/guild chat without the pearl/guildname above your head. The only problem however is that leader options (like setting password) may shift when people log off so you really have to be sure that everyone gets along with everyone. But I think it something maybe you might like Jubs (if you haven't tried it out already).


I've used it before, a loooong time ago. Raid guild I was in "required" channels based on class, so we could "coordinate" well. All we did was goof off in that channel.

Only reason I stopped using those channels is one of my friends has a private vent we go and talk on.

It's not quite the same as multiple LSs, though, simply because you can't be in all the LSs at once. I could just imagine the green spam, though.
#88 Nov 28 2009 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
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DjinnRB wrote:
when I say who play ffxiv I mean who will be playing ffxiv.

I for one am going to stop playing wow for a little while to play FFXIV when it comes out. but my question is this. If the new WoW expansion comes out before FFXIV will you still buy expansion and then stop playing wow to play FFXIV? or will you play both? or just stay with wow because you already have it?


I'm a little bored of FFXI and WOW right now. It will be good to try a new game. But that's not to say I won't ever play them again.
#89 Nov 28 2009 at 6:17 PM Rating: Good
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I've been playing both FFXI and WoW but lately I've started petering out on playing FFXI. I'll log in for a couple hours, get nothing done, and log off. I can do the same thing on WoW however, and at least get a pug raid or a few heroics runs in.

I enjoyed both games, but I liked the atmosphere and the design more in FFXI than the actual gameplay and grouping systems. Actually I would go so far as to say I disliked FFXI's requirement to group for everything. I want FFXIV to have FFXI's way of creating an exciting and atmospheric world, WoW's accessibility, and some innovative new features exclusive to FFXIV.
#90 Nov 30 2009 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I played FFXI for about 6+ years. That game pretty much ran my life for a very long time. Not just because the game was addictive, but because I made great friends who I ended up hanging out with IRL. I still remember when I came back to the game the first time, I would run accross people who remember me from years ago sending me tells like "Wow your back! Your the guy who taught me to be the best tank ever!" or "Holy crap! What's up man! I remember when we were the dynamic duo in PVP! We would destroy everyone together!". It's the small things that pull on your heart strings my friends. I have years of history with FFXI, and I have always stood by Square games. They have made some bombs here and there, but over all their games are top-notch and keep you coming back for more.

Blizzard makes games for children mostly. A retarded monkey could play most any of the classes in WOW with little or no effort. I play WOW right now, it's fun from time to time. The only thing I really like about it is the PVP though. That's pretty much it's only redeeming quality, other then that it's endless quests and raids with crappy storyline. The game is made so easy that you fequently see 12yr olds playing the game, and that's why it does so well.... anyone can play.

But to answer your question, I'm going to play WOW until FFIV comes out. After that I probably won't cancel my WOW account, I might come back and play it from time to time. But I'm looking forward to FFIV so much. The best part is just starting out with everyone else when it first comes out. Exploring all the beautiful landscapes with all the other noobs you befriend along the way. Running through new and interesting places that seem ever-so perilous. It's the best part of a game, when you first start and everything is so new and exciting. The one thing that FFXI always had over WOW was the direct contact with people all the time. You meet so many new and interesting people, and of course the bad eggs lol. But honestly I'm so excited about FFIV I could burst lol.
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#91 Nov 30 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I would have to agree with anyone that says the community in WoW is horrible. I had just gotten to level 80 and was still rolling plenty of 'greens'. Anyways, I was doing a pug and had I not known the group leader I would have been kicked for doing 1.5k dps and been blamed for the groups wiping even though it was my 4th level 80 class and I already knew the fight, and our wipes were not because we couldn't dps fast enough. Anyways, people were sending me whispers all over the place telling me to 'learn to play' and how I'm a 'baddie'. I got into a very funny (I thought it was funny) conversation with another member about how my skill at WoW is based purely on my gear after getting to level 80 only a few hours before the run. He was entirely convinced that I was doing 1.5k dps because I was a bad player, and not because I had bad gear.

As for the original question. I will be playing FFXIV if it is anymore difficult than WoW. I'd put money on me playing FFXIV, as the chance of anyone besides Blizzard making a game easier than that is pretty slim. The Cataclysm expansion won't be enough to keep me playing.
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#92 Dec 13 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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personaly i like FFXI over WOW but i play WOW. I used to play FFXI for 5 year but i change to wow b/c i dont have the time to play ffxi and wait for more then 4hr to be able to do something when in WOW i can log in and do alot in 4hr.

For what i read in the new FF online they are making it less time-consuming in other word you wont have to wait 4hr for something to happen and if this true i am defenly goin back to ff, i miss the graphic the music and the exciments doin mission or quest but i dont miss the waiting hrs and hrs trying to find a group, If this problem wont be fix on the new ff i wont come back no matter how pretty the game looks like oh and very important hope they dont ***** with the economic like they did on FFXI

Until then blizzard has my business
#93 Dec 14 2009 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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So yeah, this new dungeon LFG tool has pretty much made WoW a crack addiction for me. I pretty much play WoW to do a few things:

Level alts
Run heroics and 10 mans
PvP

With this LFG tool its amazingly easy to get a group for a heroic. Now I know a lot of FFXI players enjoyed the 9000 hours of LFG in their gaming career, but for me this is a godsend. They've took almost all of the downtime out of their game now.

I'll still be playing 14 for sure, definatly canceling my WoW sub for at least a month, but with cataclysm coming as well its hard to say how long I'll be on 14. All I'm going to say about it is that they better do a **** good job on eliminating dead time.

Now for the WoW community, yeah it sucks, but hey they've got a billion players so I expect more idiots. FFXI's community sucked to though, if you didnt have the best gear, you weren't doing ****. "Go farm".

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#94 Dec 14 2009 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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I dont see how FFXI community is better then WOW, I find WOW community way much better for many reason

In FFXI you need a endgame LS to be able to run sky,limbus etc
you have to kiss *** and go thrue some stupid application to join 1 of this LS and most LS wont aloud you to have contac with other LS b/c they think you go talk about when they planing to camp a NM or some BS of u being a spy, is like joining a cult .with out a endgame LS you are pretty much stuck on merits pt and farming

In WOW you arent require to have a engame LS or what they call guild to run engame stuff i can do it all with out having 1 so no *** kissing or stupid *** application is call puging where you play with randome ppl. you can have as many guild you want with out any drama about you being a spy.

people say that WOW has more stupid ppl then ffxi but thats not true it feels that way b/c on like ffxi you are always playing with different ppl in wow, wich mean you interact with more ppl so your bound to meet more idiots and since in ffxi most of the time you play with the same ppl you have less chances to meet a idiot

Edited, Dec 14th 2009 5:22pm by Drakent
#95 Dec 14 2009 at 5:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Drakent wrote:
I dont see how FFXI community is better then WOW, I find WOW community way much better for many reason

In FFXI you need a endgame LS to be able to run sky,limbus etc
you have to kiss *** and go thrue some stupid application to join 1 of this LS and most LS wont aloud you to have contac with other LS b/c they think you go talk about when they planing to camp a NM or some BS of u being a spy, is like joining a cult .with out a endgame LS you are pretty much stuck on merits pt and farming

In WOW you arent require to have a engame LS or what they call guild to run engame stuff i can do it all with out having 1 so no *** kissing or stupid *** application is call puging where you play with randome ppl. you can have as many guild you want with out any drama about you being a spy.

people say that WOW has more stupid ppl then ffxi but thats not true it feels that way b/c on like ffxi you are always playing with different ppl in wow, wich mean you interact with more ppl so your bound to meet more idiots and since in ffxi most of the time you play with the same ppl you have less chances to meet a idiot

Edited, Dec 14th 2009 5:22pm by Drakent


WoW is more geared towards casual carebears. Not saying that's a bad thing, but FFXI is just a different flavor of MMO where, as LinkedIn puts it, relationships matter(TM).

Edited, Dec 14th 2009 6:40pm by odinpingpong
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