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#1 Nov 02 2009 at 2:18 PM Rating: Default
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I've been looking at all the idea's written here from other posters and some of the interviews i've read.

If they are going to go with this virtually classes system would not a point system such as Final Fantasy Tactics be useful in this game? That game gives you the freedom to mix and match a person or parties of people that can highly benefit the game experience and lvls tho they are required can be bypassed with a stout ability lineup. Please share your thoughts.

Example: Dual Wield + movement range + 2 lances + jump = a very deadly combo. (fft)
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#2 Nov 02 2009 at 3:02 PM Rating: Default
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If you're leveling your weapon and not your "job" per say, what would be the point?

Ex:

"Hey, my Great Sword is level 37 bro, but my Shield and 1H sword is level 75, want me to switch?"

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#3 Nov 02 2009 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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yea i can see that point, but do we know the weapon will level up? I don't recall reading about it, i may have missed it, but don't remember any mention of it. If you can point me where it states the weapon skills up i'd appreciate it.
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#4 Nov 02 2009 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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Free form systems don't work well in multiplayer settings. It becomes far too easy to abuse, exploit, or min/max them. The way they are able to work in single player games is because exploration of the game system is usually emphasized and becomes possible with the lack of external competitive forces.
#5 Nov 15 2009 at 9:07 AM Rating: Default
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Free form systems don't work well in multiplayer settings. It becomes far too easy to abuse, exploit, or min/max them. The way they are able to work in single player games is because exploration of the game system is usually emphasized and becomes possible with the lack of external competitive forces.


That makes sense. However.

The game is going to have little to no PvP so it shouldn't really matter. My opinion is, if the guy can't kill me then him being super bad *** is ok. It might even be a good thing if we group together.

Min/max doesn't bother me either. Some people like to perfect every action. To be the best that they possibly can be, regardless if the differance is negligible. Does it mean we all have to? No not usually. FFXI players forced people to min/max becuase of the difficulty of the game and the penalty of death. People only wanted to group when they were safe. FFXIV is not FFXI. By all reports it will be much more forgiving. Min/max should be preferance this time. I said FFXI players forced min/max and not FFXI forced min/max for a reason. It's not FFXI's fault we're a bunch of cowards.

They also said that any NM drops or rare equipment recieved from mobs will most likely be bind on pick up. So it wouldn't really matter there either. Why does it matter if someone is faster than most everyone else becuase of his/her set up if they can only hold one peice of w/e it is you're after. Even if they beat you once it's unlikely they'll repeat it as they won't gain anything but hate. The only real reason anyone would have to repeat camp a NM/rare drop would be to help someone else get it.

Fully customizable abilities sounds fun to me. At this point we don't have enough information. It could be part of the game or it might not be. We'll have to wait and see.
#6 Nov 15 2009 at 9:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Nalamwen wrote:
The game is going to have little to no PvP so it shouldn't really matter. My opinion is, if the guy can't kill me then him being super bad *** is ok. It might even be a good thing if we group together.
Do you have a source on this? I thought PvP was still up in the air.

I really hope we have some form of PvP at least. Yes, I'm one of those people who actually enjoy Ballista. (._.) So sick of everybody seeing "PvP" in these XIV forums and instantly thinking "WoW". PvP does not have to be a feature. /rant
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#7 Nov 15 2009 at 9:23 AM Rating: Decent
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"Ballista XIV" is coming, but just like Ballista in XI, it'll take a year or two for them to release it.
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#8 Nov 15 2009 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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Do you have a source on this? I thought PvP was still up in the air.


In one of the interviews they stated(if I'm not mistaken) that they have no PvP yet and no current plans to add any. They said they might add some later, however.
#9Reckthor, Posted: Dec 01 2009 at 12:10 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) GDAMNIT! I love PVP! That's one of the things that's going to hurt FFXIV if they decide not to add PVP. There's alot of people that really like PVP, in fact alot of them only play a game for it's PVP. Take WOW for example, the only reason I even play that game is cause the PVP is fun. Ballita used to be a hellova lotta fun when it first came out. I was the top Dark Knight in 60 cap for a year, I remember the good old days..... when you heard Souleater some poor ******* was dead lol. 30 cap was a friggen blast too cause everyone is pretty much on par. There really isn't alot of gear you can put on at that lvl to make you anymore badass then the next guy. I just hope if they do put PVP in they figure out the mechanics ahead of time for damage and what not. Once they added the damage and crit nerf it pretty much tipped the scales too much in favor of mages. Made RDM unstoppable if you were a good kiter -_-
#10 Dec 01 2009 at 1:26 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree with the above poster, PVP can add alot of fun when MMOs start to get repetitive. Even just having a small duel with your party members while waiting for that last party member to arrive can relieve alot of tedium. I don't see the downside of adding it. Players that don't want to participate don't have to, but it will also attract alot of people who do like it.
#11 Dec 01 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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If you like PVP play a game like WoW or Warhammer that is balanced for PVP. If you want to play a PVE game play a game like FF. Too many folks enter into a PVE game and then demand balance for PVP. That turns the game to crap. If you look at what happens in WoW you basically have constant nerfs and adjustments because a select few folks have figured out how to break the game. Every few months the devs have to upkeep the natural tweaking of their system. Every time they do this, an aspect of PVE gets slammed on.

If you want to PVP, go play Warhammer, Conan, World of Warcraft, or one of a hundred other MMORPGs. Leave games like FF to the PVE crowd.
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#12 Dec 01 2009 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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If you like PVP play a game like WoW or Warhammer that is balanced for PVP. If you look at what happens in WoW you basically have constant nerfs and adjustments because a select few folks have figured out how to break the game.

Have you ever played FFXI PvP? FFXI PvP is more balanced than all of those games you listed. The downside is they only have crappy minigames for pvp that the main point of the minigame is not to kill the other player but play rock basketball or play capture the flame from stupid orbs that shouldn't be there, with little to no reward. I want the pit to work with 1v1 2v2 and 6v6 combat battles, maybe even 18v18 if they are feeling fiesty. With fun but slightly useless r/e rewards like town gear that doesn't look homosexual on male players or items that you can put in you MH or something with tele-whatever charges.
#13 Dec 01 2009 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Wait, what? Has FFXI changed that much recently? When I quit it was very, very obvious the PvP was trying to force it on a game not originally designed with it in mind. I also really liked the more sports-oriented versions of PvP they had. Saying they "shouldn't be there" is just spiteful whining. Nothing but "kill or be killed" would just get boring after a while to most people. It'd be best if they had both types implemented in some fashion.
#14 Dec 01 2009 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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Uncapped PvP is horribly unbalanced, but I've had hard time finding a better balanced PvP MMO than 30-60 cap in XI. It's surprising how right they got it, especially when it was meant to be irrelevant from the main game from the start.
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#15 Dec 01 2009 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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CaptainTeg wrote:
Have you ever played FFXI PvP? FFXI PvP is more balanced than all of those games you listed. The downside is they only have crappy minigames for pvp that the main point of the minigame is not to kill the other player but play rock basketball or play capture the flame from stupid orbs that shouldn't be there, with little to no reward. I want the pit to work with 1v1 2v2 and 6v6 combat battles, maybe even 18v18 if they are feeling fiesty. With fun but slightly useless r/e rewards like town gear that doesn't look homosexual on male players or items that you can put in you MH or something with tele-whatever charges.


Uhm, yeah I have. The important thing to note is that my entire point had nothing to do with FFXI PVP balance. What it had to do with was the idea of the ENTIRE game being balanced around PVP. Once you make PVP a focus or important component of your game, you will start to tweak different classes/jobs so that one does not have a massive advantage over another in Versus combat.

I don't want that. Why you ask?

Because if you begin to balance jobs/classes for PVP you end up losing good PVE abilities because they become overpowered in PVP. I don't care for PVP of any kind, so in my opinion, I want a game that does not do this. If you want a game that does this, play one of a dozen that are already in place. FFXIV has the potential to be a great story game and multiplayer experience. Once you add in PVP and the idiots that foam at the mouth about killing another player, you invariably lose some of that magic.

Course, that is just my opinion. Many folks find PVP to be a necessary component to any MMO experience. I sincerely hope they are dissapointed by FFXIV and stay out of the game, as those folks are usually jerks.
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#16 Dec 01 2009 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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The important thing to note is that my entire point had nothing to do with FFXI PVP balance. What it had to do with was the idea of the ENTIRE game being balanced around PVP.

Yea which brought me to my point that FFXI isn't balanced for PvP and yet is more balanced than games that are balanced for PvP. Thus negating your entire point. PvP isn't mandatory, but it is a fun past time, especially after lfp for several hours unsuccessfully to vent some frustration.

edit: Can't spell

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 12:22pm by CaptainTeg
#17 Dec 01 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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Uncapped PvP is horribly unbalanced, but I've had hard time finding a better balanced PvP MMO than 30-60 cap in XI. It's surprising how right they got it, especially when it was meant to be irrelevant from the main game from the start.


I mostly played capped, and I remember certain jobs that were basically free kills or minor distractions at best. I remember certain equipment and job combinations that turned you into a right monster. I've played a lot of MMOs but never really gotten into the PvP aspect of many of them. If FFXI is a higher example of balance, I'm inclined to believe that says something bad about PvP MMOs more than it says something good about FFXI. If this has changed, then this is all obsolete, although I'd be interested in knowing how they pulled it off.

I'm with Moonkissed in that I wouldn't want PvP to become a focus feature in FFXIV. I wouldn't want to see changes brought to the rest of the game simply for the sake of PvP. I don't mind people who like PvP, I like PvP, but it's not something I want to be relevant to my FFXIV experience unless I go looking for it.

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 1:02pm by Keitre
#18 Dec 01 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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LordFaramir wrote:
I really hope we have some form of PvP at least. Yes, I'm one of those people who actually enjoy Ballista. (._.) So sick of everybody seeing "PvP" in these XIV forums and instantly thinking "WoW". PvP does not have to be a feature. /rant

I'm generally all in favor of casual PvP. Even just dueling or whatever for goofing around. FFXI was the only MMO I've ever played which didn't have a basic dueling system.

But I strongly dislike heavily competitive tournament-style PvP. It's no secret that Arenas were the biggest mistake in the history of WoW.

And I dislike the concept of World PvP ganking... Well sorta. I fundamentally hate the concept of ganking. There's no fun in imbalanced PvP, and beating up on people who aren't equals. But on the other hand, it is delightfully fun to turn the tables on someone who tried to kill you.

*shrug* Either way, World PvP would be highly inappropriate for FFXI, but there is really no excuse not to have a casual PvP for fun.

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Course, that is just my opinion. Many folks find PVP to be a necessary component to any MMO experience. I sincerely hope they are dissapointed by FFXIV and stay out of the game, as those folks are usually jerks.

It's not just an MMO thing. Friendly competition has been a part of videogames for a long time. "2 Player Competitive Mode" is not exactly a new concept, and adds a lot of fun to games as something different to do.

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 3:05pm by Karelyn
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#19 Dec 01 2009 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't see what the big deal is with PVP being in a game. It doesn't hafta be a major factor of the game, I just want it to be an option. Moonkissed seems like the type of guy who gets tired of getting straight up raped in PVP and thus got a bad taste in his mouth from it. I honestly don't know why everyone is refering to WOW for their PVP. The only thing I want to take from WOW PVP is the point reward system. Everytime you ballista you get a set amount of points depending on your ranking and then you use those points to buy gear, recipes for synths, or a new type of chocobo..... something to make people more interested in it. There was really no reward besides the satisfaction of killing other players which gets old after awhile.
Yeah, WOW does have one of the best pvp systems and it can be alot of fun. But FFXI was always more balanced in that aspect. There's basically 3 classes in WOW that run the field of PVP, where as in FFXI the simple fact of changin your sub job made your character a whole new monster. DRK/RDM for instance was particularly fun, gave you so many spells to choose from to take apart your opponent piece by piece. Ballista actually teaches you more indepth how better to play your character. It can show you the limits of spell ranges, more effective ways to around defensive fights, and it can help you hone your skills making you quicker to respond to certain actions a mob might do. The best part about ballista was people getting to test out new subs which normally make absolutely no sense like sam/brd, but somehow work very well in pvp. All I'm saying is, if SE is smart they will put in some PVP for the fans that actually like competition on a more personal level. And for the people that don't like playing pvp....... DON'T PLAY IT, simple as that.

Edited, Dec 1st 2009 6:33pm by Reckthor
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#20 Dec 01 2009 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Most people that don't want PvP don't want it because it introduces unnecessary competition outside the PvP world. Don't get me wrong I'm all for a little PvP every once in a while, but people tend to get tied up in their ranking and PvP gear. This ends up destroying, or at least crippling one of the greatest parts of online games, it's community.

If region control was based on some sort of PvP battleground, that would be cool. But obviously, if we can't play as beastmen, there is no reason for allies to try to kill each other.

I would be more interested if there was a points system for besieged-type events (there may already be one in FFXI, I havent played FFXI in a while).
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#21 Dec 13 2009 at 4:52 AM Rating: Decent
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One thing that bothered me with FFXI was that you couldn't just do something fun, you had to min/max, or you weren't doing anything. I'm hoping with FFXIV things will be different so you can do a build that is more fun even if less powerful and still be able to contribute your fair share to a group.

Now I'm not talking like war/whm, but maybe melee rdm/nin(pure leveling purposes here). Fun to play, but if you tried it you'd be boo'd to all ****. I'm hoping 14 is different and the 'fun' combos are able to come out and play.

edit: About pvp and the community... PvP doesn't do anything to the community. Loot does things to the community. Loot in any form wether it be from PvP or HNMs is what ruins the community and there will not be an mmo where loot isnt important.

Edited, Dec 13th 2009 4:57am by shaani
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#22 Dec 13 2009 at 5:05 AM Rating: Decent
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One thing that bothered me with FFXI was that you couldn't just do something fun, you had to min/max, or you weren't doing anything. I'm hoping with FFXIV things will be different so you can do a build that is more fun even if less powerful and still be able to contribute your fair share to a group.


How can they accomplish this? Min/maxing will happen, and players are even encouraging it as I've seen from the posts here.
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#23 Dec 13 2009 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Min/maxing can be pretty easily avoided by having a large number of lateral options.

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If you like PVP play a game like WoW or Warhammer that is balanced for PVP. If you want to play a PVE game play a game like FF. Too many folks enter into a PVE game and then demand balance for PVP. That turns the game to crap. If you look at what happens in WoW you basically have constant nerfs and adjustments because a select few folks have figured out how to break the game. Every few months the devs have to upkeep the natural tweaking of their system. Every time they do this, an aspect of PVE gets slammed on.


Reiterating what I just said in the other thread, but this is stupidly easy to avoid. Different balances for PVP and PVE. If there are balance problems in PVP, they can be changed for PVP only.

So many great features don't get added to games because people see one problem with something and give up, when there are almost always simple solutions.
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#24 Dec 13 2009 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:

How can they accomplish this? Min/maxing will happen, and players are even encouraging it as I've seen from the posts here.


Of course min/maxing will happen, no one said it wouldn't. I simply said it would be very nice if MANY of the combinations of abilities were powerful enough to be used and not scoffed and scorned. In 11 you did things pretty much one or two ways, I'm hoping 14 will allow you to do things ten different ways. I'm hoping if a player wishes to do something that is a lot of fun, but not quite as strong as the 'best' set ups, they wont get blasted for it.
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