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#52 Nov 21 2009 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:


The point of playing basketball is to have fun too, but not everything in basketball is fun either. Stuff like training and the working out etc. A game is not fun 100% of the time, rather that be real life games or video-games. You actually make the game more fun because you put a little bit of care into your actions. I guarantee you will have more fun when you achieve something that you care about, rather then just going through the motions of something you have no care in the world for. Kind of like all that training and working out in basketball makes you appreciate the game more, which results in more fun when you actually see success in the games.

Or maybe thats just me, it could be just me. I know some people though that wouldn't be happy unless they started the game with everything they wanted. Unless they could press a button and get every item and go to every place they wanted, they would always find something to complain. Think about your actions and put a little effort in, and you gain a better appreciation for the stuff that you achieve. I have never played a game that gave me the same feeling when I hit 75, or when I achieved a lot of the stuff I did in FFXI. I know many people that feel the same way. They always say no game ever before or since has given them the feeling that FFXI did. These people never looked to why they got that feeling though, when they accomplished something. Its because it took effort to accomplish what they got.

I ranted a little bit, but I just hope FFXIV has the same feeling with accomplishments that FFXI had. No penalties, and everything handed to you, is no fun at all.


The only reason a video game isnt fun 100% of the time is developers haven't been able to make one that is yet. There should be no excuses for it, a game shouldn't be work, or something that isnt fun. There should be no, ********** I wish I could do this but I have to farm for a couple months". I can accept a small bit of a grind, but when a video game becomes akin to work, then its crossed the line. The whole 'You get a sense of achievement blah blah' is so over done its not funny. A game shouldnt time-rape you forever so you can get a sense of accomplishment, it should be done in other ways, such as difficulty in a fight, or a puzzle thats quite hard. Not 'hey I got 6 people finally with the right job combinations so I could smash this ksnm for the 1000th time and finally get the drop I needed. Yay!'
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#53 Nov 22 2009 at 2:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Just do this:

1. Death causes durability loss(gil sink)
2. Can't resurrect during combat(no zerg)
3. Spawn back at your homepoint(like FFXI)

The game gets a gil sink right from the get go, you don't need to worry about zerging/weakness, and you still have to invest time into getting back where you died.

Easy.
#54 Nov 22 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Just do this:

1. Death causes durability loss(gil sink)
2. Can't resurrect during combat(no zerg)
3. Spawn back at your homepoint(like FFXI)

The game gets a gil sink right from the get go, you don't need to worry about zerging/weakness, and you still have to invest time into getting back where you died.

Easy.


Two things

1. I like raising during combat, just a preference for me.

2. Its FF-like to be able to raise during combat, in almost every FF game I can remember you was able to raise during combat. Usually with a phoenix down or your whm character's raise spell. It adds a Final Fantasy feel to the game, and that is probably why you could raise during combat in FFXI.

Quote:
The only reason a video game isnt fun 100% of the time is developers haven't been able to make one that is yet.


Not true

Losing is not much fun, and usually results in being aggravated in any game, but also winning all the time is no fun, and usually results in being bored with a game rather fast. There is no formula to have fun 100% of the time, every single second your playing. This even comes to play more in an MMO because they have to keep you playing over a long period of time.

Quote:
There should be no excuses for it, a game shouldn't be work, or something that isnt fun.


Any game, real-life or video games is not fun 100% of the time. Work has many different meanings, my meaning of work as it relates to a video game is effort. Yes stuff should require effort, especially in an MMO. People that don't like putting in that effort then relates it to work. People that like it, relates it to "working towards" something.

Quote:
There should be no, ********** I wish I could do this but I have to farm for a couple months". I can accept a small bit of a grind, but when a video game becomes akin to work, then its crossed the line.


This is an MMO that expects to be there many years down the line. If you could do everything in 1 week, the game wouldn't last 6 months, and definitely not 6+ years. A game will not appeal to everyone, because simply every human being is different. Everybody has different likes and dislikes, same as time available and things like that. If you dislike more things about the game then you like, then probably there are better games out there for you. It wouldn't be the end of the world for you, or for them, the most important thing is to play something that you enjoy.

Quote:
The whole 'You get a sense of achievement blah blah' is so over done its not funny. A game shouldnt time-rape you forever so you can get a sense of accomplishment, it should be done in other ways, such as difficulty in a fight, or a puzzle thats quite hard.


This again is where the difference of a regular game and a MMO shows. You have to realize that a "puzzle" in an MMO has over a million people working to crack it all day and night. A puzzle or a difficult boss would not last long, unless you make it impossible to do (like AV). Its many smart people that play these MMOs, from professors to doctors etc. If you have a million + people working to defeat something all day and night, and sharing information via the internet, it wouldn't take long before it became defeated and easy. You think they made Fafnir easy on purpose? No back in the day it was difficult, but people did tests and got better equip, and it made the HNMs a cakewalk.

For whatever reason it was, people got a feeling of achievement from FFXI that no other game has given them. I hope this feeling continues in FFXIV. That doesn't mean everything has to be a time sink though.

Quote:
Not 'hey I got 6 people finally with the right job combinations so I could smash this ksnm for the 1000th time and finally get the drop I needed. Yay!'


You think they made the bcnms like that on purpose? No, people experimented until they found the right equip and job combination to do it easily. People will run test and experiment to find out information, because the game has to work on a formula. Unless everything is completely random, the damage and damage-taken numbers are ran on a formula. People are smart enough to figure out that formula by doing experiments and overtime everything becomes rather easy because we as a community are more knowledgeable.



Edited, Nov 22nd 2009 9:50am by HocusP
#55 Nov 22 2009 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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2. Its FF-like to be able to raise during combat, in almost every FF game I can remember you was able to raise during combat. Usually with a phoenix down or your whm character's raise spell. It adds a Final Fantasy feel to the game, and that is probably why you could raise during combat in FFXI.


If you want to use console RPGs as an argument for raising in combat, then Weakness has no right being there. But that would lead to zerging the boss. I don't think anybody wants that.

I just don't like the mentality of 7 people dying to this crazy boss, and the other 11 people going "It's okay, we'll just raise them."

My major grip with FFXI's death penalty is Weakness. The game shouldn't force an AFK on you, where you're not really AFK, since you'll need to watch your back so you're not killed while vulnerable.

I'm fine with resurrection during combat, so long as it's on a decent cooldown. Druids in WoW get one on a 20 minute(soon to be 8 or 10 minute) cooldown. You could even implement phoenix downs, and tack a cooldown on that.
#56 Nov 22 2009 at 3:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is not par for the course in MMOs.

Most manage to have Boss Fights that are difficult in their own right, where knowing the strategy is only half the battle. That's part of the job of the Live Team; to not only design fights in a way that's balanced and interesting, but to react to those inevitable instances where a class or trick can exploit a battle by patching a clever solution.

A Live Team that only does the first part, that throws patches into the void and never thinks twice about it, is doing you a grave disservice.


Edited, Nov 22nd 2009 4:28pm by Zemzelette
#57 Nov 22 2009 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
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HocusP wrote:
Two things

1. I like raising during combat, just a preference for me.

2. Its FF-like to be able to raise during combat, in almost every FF game I can remember you was able to raise during combat. Usually with a phoenix down or your whm character's raise spell. It adds a Final Fantasy feel to the game, and that is probably why you could raise during combat in FFXI.

The difference though?

In most FF games, and RPGs in general, you only have 3-4 characters on your team. In such a position, Life spells are more acceptable in combat. You have 2 characters still alive, and have to rez 1 character. That's a tall order.

When you start adding more characters than that, it becomes more difficult to balance. I seem to recall in Turn-Based Strategy games, a frequent thing is that you could only cast a Life spell on the person, if they had been dead for less than 3 turns. Otherwise you had to wait until the battle was over to get them back. That help balanced the "Oh hey, 1 person died, no problem, I have 9 others" problem.

Edited, Nov 22nd 2009 7:04pm by Karelyn
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#58 Nov 22 2009 at 11:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Some strategies actually involve dying though (purposely kiting adds until death, away from a target area).. so I do think that Deleveling adds difficulty, in the form of clenching your options~
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#59 Nov 23 2009 at 12:23 PM Rating: Default
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If you want to use console RPGs as an argument for raising in combat, then Weakness has no right being there. But that would lead to zerging the boss. I don't think anybody wants that.

I just don't like the mentality of 7 people dying to this crazy boss, and the other 11 people going "It's okay, we'll just raise them."

My major grip with FFXI's death penalty is Weakness. The game shouldn't force an AFK on you, where you're not really AFK, since you


The point is, its FF-like to be able to raise during combat. Now of course in an MMO it has to be balanced out, its not just going to work the same way as a single player rpg. This is where weakness comes in, it wouldn't serve a purpose to have weakness in an single player rpg. It does serve a purpose in an MMO to have it though.

Its FF-like to be able to raise during combat, but it still has to be tweaked some so it balances out in an MMO. Of course just raising and zombie killing every boss in an MMO would not be a supported behavior.

Its FF-like to be able to raise an infinite amount of times during combat, but of course it has to be regulated. Weakness is what regulates the balance of death and raising.

I just commend them on keeping a FF feel to a FF game but also regulating it so it doesn't break the game. Yeah I agree that maybe they can come up with something better then weakness so you wouldn't have to completely afk. I'm not saying that it was a perfect method, but it worked because it regulated deaths while staying true to its final fantasy roots. I think gear and weapon duration will be kind of like a weakness this time around. They will probably either temporarily (for a time period) or permanently until you get your gear fixed make your weapons and gear lose stats. That way your not completely useless like weakness but you are also not as effective as a person that didn't just die. Then the more times you die in a row, the worst your weapon and gear degrade.
#60 Nov 23 2009 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
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Its FF-like to be able to raise an infinite amount of times during combat, but of course it has to be regulated. Weakness is what regulates the balance of death and raising.


The thing is, the weakness applies regardless of whether you raise in combat or not. If they only applied weakness when risen in combat, I'd be a lot happier with the system itself.
#61 Nov 24 2009 at 3:41 AM Rating: Good
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Swan wrote:
Some strategies actually involve dying though (purposely kiting adds until death, away from a target area).. so I do think that Deleveling adds difficulty, in the form of clenching your options~


In any game, strategies are based around the abilities that are available at any given point in time. In-combat raises running rampant in FFXI has always grated on my nerves. It takes a considerable amount of skill and strategy out of the game. Not all, but a **** good chunk. (Yes, I know it's 'indicative' of the FF genre, but it just doesn't fit in within MMO confines to me).

Your healers fail and the tank dies? That's no problem, because aggro is so defunct in the game, a DPS with Provoke or other high threat abilities can kite the boss for 6-7 minutes **** near in every instance while the healers get the tank back up and he meds while his weakness wears off.

You don't think your healers can keep the tank alive due to stupid mechanics or that they're just not that good of healers? It's OK! Just bring in more tanks; they can rotate and switch off weaknesses when one dies.

The weakness debuff doesn't prevent zerging at all in FFXI, despite what some want to believe. It makes it not as effective to *immediately* run back in, but in the grand scheme of how long the majority of boss fights are for fresh people in the majority of "raiding/alliance" situations, that 5 minutes of weakness is *nothing* during that time frame.

The ability to raise in combat makes players lazy. The strategy only needs to cover so far as the boss as dies, who cares about actual finesse and demonstration of skill. It's accepted that X persons are going to die Y times; why should they care about playing well when decently fine will do. They know that as long as there are bodies to throw at the monster, it'll go down. Weakness doesn't deter them at all, and is shrugged off.

Take away the ability to raise in combat and you'd be surprised at how many people couldn't kill older content due to general carelessness, even if tweaks were made to fights to compensate for lack of that crutch.

Edited, Nov 24th 2009 4:44am by StrijderVechter
#62 Nov 24 2009 at 5:18 AM Rating: Decent
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while weakness somehow served it's purpose in xp party, on hnm it didn't so much...

i remember back in 2004-2005, when i did some hnm like wyrms, we had maybe 5-6 party and the dd were switching to main alliance to zerg it. if someone died, it was just replaced imediatly(there were more than one tank too)...

sure there are things you can go all out from the start sending all your dd, like dynamis lord and then maybe wipe.
weakness prevent you from going back in the fight, but then you'd stay on the ground untill full wipe and safe reraising, but since everyone probably used it's 2h and there are little chances you can try again and win even after weakness.

so in theses cases, weakness is just the way you don't get raise during the fight.

but then, 5 mn is too long for an xp party fight, forcing 6 ppl to be not playing for that time is stupide.
and in xp party, deaths usualy happen at the start, when the players find their paces... yay, first fight your tank die, everyone afk... what a great way to set the mood... :x
#63 Nov 24 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
while weakness somehow served it's purpose in xp party, on hnm it didn't so much...

i remember back in 2004-2005, when i did some hnm like wyrms, we had maybe 5-6 party and the dd were switching to main alliance to zerg it. if someone died, it was just replaced imediatly(there were more than one tank too)...

sure there are things you can go all out from the start sending all your dd, like dynamis lord and then maybe wipe.
weakness prevent you from going back in the fight, but then you'd stay on the ground untill full wipe and safe reraising, but since everyone probably used it's 2h and there are little chances you can try again and win even after weakness.

so in theses cases, weakness is just the way you don't get raise during the fight.

but then, 5 mn is too long for an xp party fight, forcing 6 ppl to be not playing for that time is stupide.
and in xp party, deaths usualy happen at the start, when the players find their paces... yay, first fight your tank die, everyone afk... what a great way to set the mood... :x


If there was no weakness then hnms like dynamis lord probably would not be an go all out kind of fight. It would probably be a, everybody bring reraise and if you die just get up and keep fighting kind of deal. All the blms bring tons of ethers (mp potions) and just keep dieing and raising and using them to get full mp and keep nuking. While all the melee and stuff get all hp potions. Weakness doesn't allow for this type of strategy to work, because you are ineffective after you die.

Of course weakness doesn't stop you from zerging stuff, I never said it did. It stops you from zombie killing stuff with the same people, allowing everything to be killed this way. This doesn't stop you from bringing 60 people and swapping out dead people. Nothing stops you from doing that, but an area that has a limit on the number of people that can enter.

I don't think SE cared much about zerg killing, they have even said that they designed stuff to take like 40 people to kill etc. Zombie zerging stuff and just bringing a lot of people are two completely different things though.

In an exp party case, many times you didn't even have to stop fighting if 1 or 2 people was weakened unless it was the tank. It served the purpose of not letting you raise during combat and continue right where you left off at. If you didn't die then it was nothing to worry about, but even if someone did die, five minutes was a nice break. Rebuff people, get healed up from the fight that killed you, and in 2 minutes you would be fighting again.

Like I said earlier though, I by no means think FFXI death situation was perfect at all. I do however think it worked well because it stayed true to its FF traits, and tweaked it so it wasn't broken in an MMO. Of course its much easier to just not let people raise during combat, and that seem to be what people here want. But, doesnt that make you wait even longer then the five minute weakness? Especially if your waiting for somebodies ability to cool-down or waiting until the end of the fight.

Quote:
The weakness debuff doesn't prevent zerging at all in FFXI, despite what some want to believe. It makes it not as effective to *immediately* run back in, but in the grand scheme of how long the majority of boss fights are for fresh people in the majority of "raiding/alliance" situations, that 5 minutes of weakness is *nothing* during that time frame.


Nobody said it prevented zerging, but it did prevent zombie killing everything.

Quote:
Take away the ability to raise in combat and you'd be surprised at how many people couldn't kill older content due to general carelessness, even if tweaks were made to fights to compensate for lack of that crutch.


Taking away the ability to raise during combat would not do anything. That still doesn't change the fact that people could bring 60 people and just swap out dead people, so how does it change anything? It doesn't change what people can or cannot kill. The only thing that would change that, is if the area that the hnm's was in had a limit on the amount of people that could enter. If it was a set amount of people that was allowed in, like an instance, thats the only way it would change anything. Whats stopping people from dieing and hp'n and just running back? If they can't raise. You got to think these things all the way out, because the people that experiment to find the easiest ways will.

Edited, Nov 24th 2009 10:56am by HocusP
#64 Nov 24 2009 at 12:43 PM Rating: Default
HocusP wrote:

Like I said earlier though, I by no means think FFXI death situation was perfect at all. I do however think it worked well because it stayed true to its FF traits, and tweaked it so it wasn't broken in an MMO. Of course its much easier to just not let people raise during combat, and that seem to be what people here want. But, doesnt that make you wait even longer then the five minute weakness? Especially if your waiting for somebodies ability to cool-down or waiting until the end of the fight.


It depends on the context. Is it faster to raise one person without weakness while out of combat during an HNM fight? No. Is it faster to wait for the end of a fight to raise someone with no rez sickness than it is to raise them with a 5 minute "lolgimp" stamp in an xp party? Absolutely.

SE almost had it right with the anti-zerg component for HNMs. Being able to raise the dead (imo) should be a function of resources. Do your healers have the MP to raise without risking being unable to heal the living? Do they have time to do a long cast on a dead member without having someone else die? Once a person is raised, what kind of resources are required to get them back to full HP/MP? Those are all factors that can be taken into consideration for tuning to prevent zerging (and I'm leaving out the issue of cooldowns on spells to raise etc.) Approaching it from the resource perspective still enables the large group/party swapping dynamic if that's what SE wants in world encounters but doesn't penalize smaller groups unnecessarily.
#65 Nov 24 2009 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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Of course its much easier to just not let people raise during combat, and that seem to be what people here want. But, doesnt that make you wait even longer then the five minute weakness? Especially if your waiting for somebodies ability to cool-down or waiting until the end of the fight.


Like Aurelius said, in an xp party, it's not faster.

For big fights, like HNMs, I'd rather fights be designed around player ability and strategy, and not how many bodies you can throw at a boss. Players should be concerned about dying during the fight, not thinking "Hey, if I die, I'll just get a raise and be back in 5 minutes."
#66 Nov 24 2009 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure what you guys mean by no raising, if someone could explain this.

As far as I understand this, you would have to home point if you die at any given time? Wouldn't that mean that you basically have to leave instance based events, or drag your **** all across the world back to where you were?

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#67 Nov 24 2009 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
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they are only talking about raises during battle, otherwise raise is ok. They are still quabbling about what set back dying brings about though.
#68 Nov 24 2009 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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For big fights, like HNMs, I'd rather fights be designed around player ability and strategy, and not how many bodies you can throw at a boss. Players should be concerned about dying during the fight, not thinking "Hey, if I die, I'll just get a raise and be back in 5 minutes."


HNMs this time around could actually be designed to gain more motivation, or "Rage", as they kill people within an encounter. Even the latest XI patch introduced some NMs that level up in response to various acts that make them harder to kill. End result being it will either take much longer to kill or people will have to retreat, be it willingly or by wipe, as the mob becomes too much to handle.

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#69 Nov 24 2009 at 7:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I also prefer the limitation on death. May be there wont be "outside" boss anymore so everything will be BCNM based, so you cannot bring 60+ people and just swap bodies, you will be givene enough slot to fill enough people in for the fight, so don't think you can just swap more bodies over if someone dies.

Weakness is actually not over bad. In WoW battle rezz is 20min cool down, if you bring may be 2 Druids in the fight means you can rezz 2 people in the time of 20min, in FF, weakness is 5min and you can rezz an army out of it.

Perhaps, if all dungeons in FFXI are instanced, may be weakness only apply to instances so it doesn't affect exp-er as much, may be that would be better?
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#70 Nov 24 2009 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
Pluelf wrote:
I'm not sure what you guys mean by no raising, if someone could explain this.


Some MMOs are set up so that if you are flagged as in-combat, most raise-type spells cannot be cast. There are certain spells that can be cast in combat but they have a long cooldown so they have to be used selectively.
#71 Nov 25 2009 at 2:30 AM Rating: Good
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Perhaps, if all dungeons in FFXI are instanced, may be weakness only apply to instances so it doesn't affect exp-er as much, may be that would be better?


I'd take that over FFXI's current system. Not necessarily what I would choose if I were in charge, but much better than the current system.
#72 Nov 25 2009 at 8:42 AM Rating: Default
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SE almost had it right with the anti-zerg component for HNMs. Being able to raise the dead (imo) should be a function of resources. Do your healers have the MP to raise without risking being unable to heal the living? Do they have time to do a long cast on a dead member without having someone else die? Once a person is raised, what kind of resources are required to get them back to full HP/MP? Those are all factors that can be taken into consideration for tuning to prevent zerging (and I'm leaving out the issue of cooldowns on spells to raise etc.) Approaching it from the resource perspective still enables the large group/party swapping dynamic if that's what SE wants in world encounters but doesn't penalize smaller groups unnecessarily.


In a perfect world maybe resources could be the deciding factor but it wasn't even nearly like that in FFXI. With good tanks 98% of the time your healers can raise someone without risking much death at all unless you were extremely unlucky during that little time frame. Especially if you had good pld/nin tanks on most bosses, but even with just a good ninja tank you could. This doesn't even take into account the people that's not even fighting and is just waiting anyway. The people that's outside of the alliance anyway have almost an unlimited supply of resources.

Now if the HNMs wasn't in an open world and was instanced with a cap on the amount of people, then resources would carry more weight. But, even then, unless the NM is extremely hard, with good tanks and support parties, resources wouldn't stop you from raising people, unless everybody died. Even then rather quickly if it wont no weakness you could just raise the important people first so they can jump back in and give you more time to raise everybody else. With a good structured support party and good tanks, resources is the very least of your issues.
#73 Nov 26 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
I much prefer the "difficulty v. punishment" laid out in FFXI than I do other games (equipment degradation to say the least, no raises in combat, or worse, items fall off you that others can pick up and walk away with?, etc.).

We die, we lost exp, weakened for a short time, at worse we delevel. At least we don't have to go broke learning.

There has to be some sort of check and balance system. There has to be a price paid for getting K.O.'d. I'm totally fine with the FFXI system. I certainly hope it doesn't change much with 14.


Edited, Nov 26th 2009 6:51pm by Kreacher
#74 Nov 27 2009 at 4:30 AM Rating: Decent
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The concept of "losing experience" doesn't make any sense. You can only gain experience, not lose it, unless your character is afflicted with "alzheimers." If anything, dying should be considered a gain in experience, though that wouldn't work game-wise. Equipment degradation makes much more sense, and I hope that since a system like this is already confirmed, that this will be the penalty for dying.

Having max level characters discouraged to help lower levels ones because they're afraid they'll level down is silly, and shouldn't be an aspect of gameplay.
#75 Nov 27 2009 at 6:34 AM Rating: Default
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The concept of "losing experience" doesn't make any sense. You can only gain experience, not lose it, unless your character is afflicted with "alzheimers." If anything, dying should be considered a gain in experience, though that wouldn't work game-wise. Equipment degradation makes much more sense, and I hope that since a system like this is already confirmed, that this will be the penalty for dying.

Having max level characters discouraged to help lower levels ones because they're afraid they'll level down is silly, and shouldn't be an aspect of gameplay.


I think experience loss is the way to go over money loss. Everyone has experience points they can lose and they actually value experiece points. If you look at WoW for money loss: people really don't care if they're going to die. The penalty is just too weak.

Dying needs punishment because it's adds thrill to the game. When you come out of a really tough situation where you barely survived the endorfine rush is just that much bigger if you khow there was a real loss at stake.
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#76 Nov 27 2009 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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The thought of dying in FFXI has never 'thrilled' me, only prevented me from fully enjoying myself and taking only absolutely necessary risks. Having to go back and level up again after de-leveling is not a fun feature.
#77 Nov 27 2009 at 3:27 PM Rating: Default
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Yet everyone is always too lazy to get an exp buff.
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#78 Nov 28 2009 at 3:37 AM Rating: Good
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The thought of dying in FFXI has never 'thrilled' me, only prevented me from fully enjoying myself and taking only absolutely necessary risks. Having to go back and level up again after de-leveling is not a fun feature.


I agree. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to explore an area, but simply couldn't, because my character wasn't capable of soloing "Decent Challenge" mobs. Or I didn't have any sneak/invis pots. It's no thrill, it's a deterrent for exploration/fun.
#79 Nov 28 2009 at 5:02 AM Rating: Decent
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RedGalka wrote:
If you look at WoW for money loss: people really don't care if they're going to die. The penalty is just too weak.

That is so far from the truth.

Nobody wants to die in WoW, because running back to their corpse is time consuming.
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#80 Nov 28 2009 at 5:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I agree. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to explore an area, but simply couldn't, because my character wasn't capable of soloing "Decent Challenge" mobs. Or I didn't have any sneak/invis pots. It's no thrill, it's a deterrent for exploration/fun.


That's sad, but I think you wouldn't have gone out there even if there exp penalty on dying wasn't there. I mean you would still end up fighting mobs you can't solo without getting far and it wouldn't magically generate sneak/invis pots either.

I myself had a blast exploring. Ofcourse my first character was a Red Mage so I had access to sneak and invis. Still for example going to mine at lv 35 in Ifrit's Cauldron for the first time was an amazing adventure for me. Avoiding bombs (magic agro) just to find out what kind of treasures there were was really thrilling. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have feared those bombs so much or have gained "1337" sneaking skills (which have really helped missions etc.) if I would have been careless about dying.


Quote:
Nobody wants to die in WoW, because running back to their corpse is time consuming.


Not really. Graveyards are all over the place (read close to your corpse) and you get a great speed boost running/flying back.

Edited, Nov 28th 2009 12:19pm by RedGalka
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#81 Nov 28 2009 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
If you look at WoW for money loss: people really don't care if they're going to die. The penalty is just too weak.

That is so far from the truth.

Nobody wants to die in WoW, because running back to their corpse is time consuming.


Of course nobody wants to die, but running back to a corpse was far from time consuming. Still though, nobody cared if they died. It was just "Oh, wewps time to run back to my body."
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#82 Nov 28 2009 at 8:10 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Of course nobody wants to die.

The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Still though, nobody cared if they died.

I'm calling shenanigans!

You can't have it both ways.
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#83 Nov 28 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Of course nobody wants to die.

The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Still though, nobody cared if they died.

I'm calling shenanigans!

You can't have it both ways.


I realized that it sounded contradictory, but I didn't feel like editing it to fix it lol. What I mean is that nobody wants to die, but they don't really care that much if they do. It's just a "wewps, oh well." kind of thing.
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#84 Nov 28 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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Karelyn wrote:
I'm calling shenanigans!
Oh ****, I have to run home and get my broom!
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#85 Nov 29 2009 at 4:02 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
That's sad, but I think you wouldn't have gone out there even if there exp penalty on dying wasn't there. I mean you would still end up fighting mobs you can't solo without getting far and it wouldn't magically generate sneak/invis pots either.

I myself had a blast exploring. Ofcourse my first character was a Red Mage so I had access to sneak and invis. Still for example going to mine at lv 35 in Ifrit's Cauldron for the first time was an amazing adventure for me. Avoiding bombs (magic agro) just to find out what kind of treasures there were was really thrilling. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have feared those bombs so much or have gained "1337" sneaking skills (which have really helped missions etc.) if I would have been careless about dying.


Without an exp loss, I probably would have risked it, mobs I can't solo or not. It's the home point that would bone me over in the end. I think a lot of it came down to playing a warrior, and later a paladin, that really hindered my exploration. Buying pots for exploring just wasn't in my budget. :( But once I got my dancer to the right level for the dances, hoo boy, I went all over the place.
#86 Nov 29 2009 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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Someone needs to tell the extraordinary amount of people in WoW who rage quit after dying, that they shouldn't care if they die.
#87 Nov 29 2009 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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Death penalty, I've decided, should be menial. For two reasons:

1. Elitism.

I like to try to do things slightly undergeared. It's more fun, it's more challenging, and ultimately more rewarding if you succeed. If there's a penalty like exp loss and de-leveling, people will be less inclined to take risks like this, and be more inclined to weed each other out based on the quality of gear. People will expect you to be overgeared for any given fight, because they don't like dying. I think anyone who has played an MMO for any reasonable amount of time has at one point or another encountered the extreme elitism from a leader who expects everyone in the party/raid to be far more geared than the content requires. Add more real challenge to the game, with extremely challenging fights and difficult fight mechanics. Don't punish the player for experimenting with risky tactics, or needing to try over and over until they succeed. Encourage them to think outside the box, and to be open minded towards unusual party combinations, or more willing to accept that slightly undergeared player that happens to be skilled all the same, because they don't mind messing up a couple times before they finally succeed.

2. Encourage players to help each other

In a genre that so heavily emphasizes teamwork and having to help each other succeed, there is often little incentive for players to help each other when the reward goes to a single one of them. Take for example, the concept of artifact armor in FFXI. In an ideal world, a small group of players in need of artifact armor would stick together and take turns doing the rather tedious tasks to acquire this armor. It might even work out this way in the beginning, but eventually when most players have moved to higher end content, its going to be far more difficult to find people who would be willing to take the time to accomplish something like that. Players who have already taken a job to the max level and who have friends will probably get their friends to help out instead of going through the trouble of getting an entire party of people who need the gear together, and then being obligated to help them with their own. I don't know about you guys, but I really hate asking others for help or charity. The thing that bothered me the most is when a high level player would be generous enough to help me out yet I would have no way of repaying them or compensating them. Any task that requires multiple people, should offer equal reward or at least a chance to be rewarded to those players. If there is no incentive to help another player, then it becomes difficult to find someone who is genuinely willing to help. Compound that with the chance of losing had-earned experience or levels, then that actually serves as a deterrent for players to help each other. If you couple the advantage of making friends along with the chance for a reward, then everyone wins. This is one of the biggest mistakes that FFXI made, is requiring players to help each other at their own peril, rather than the chance for rewards. Hopefully SE has realized this and will correct it for FFXIV.
#88 Nov 29 2009 at 7:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
1. Elitism.


While I agree that a harsher death penalty will breed elitism, it will exist regardless of how severe the consequence of death. WoW has arguably the most lenient death system, but elitism is all over the place there. Bottom line, people just don't like to die, regardless of how hard it impacts them.

Quote:
2. Encourage players to help each other


I agree. While you'll find somebody every so often to go out of their way to help you, it's not as often as you'd think. If there's a risk, there should be a reward. I'm not saying reward the lv75 Paladin who helped you kill a lv20 quest mob with a ring worth 100k, but if that lv75 Paladin is helping your 50+ group fight a hard fight, requiring a full party, it would be nice if they got something from it.
#89 Nov 29 2009 at 8:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Jubs wrote:
Quote:
1. Elitism.
While I agree that a harsher death penalty will breed elitism, it will exist regardless of how severe the consequence of death. WoW has arguably the most lenient death system, but elitism is all over the place there. Bottom line, people just don't like to die, regardless of how hard it impacts them.

Elitism is just a normal part of human condition. People want think they are unique and special individuals, unlike all the other mindless unthinking peons that fill their daily life. It's not a trait unique to MMOs. It's humans being humans.

Edited, Nov 29th 2009 10:01pm by Karelyn
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#90 Nov 29 2009 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
Jubs wrote:
Quote:
1. Elitism.
While I agree that a harsher death penalty will breed elitism, it will exist regardless of how severe the consequence of death. WoW has arguably the most lenient death system, but elitism is all over the place there. Bottom line, people just don't like to die, regardless of how hard it impacts them.

Elitism is just a normal part of human condition. People want think they are unique and special individuals, unlike all the other mindless unthinking peons that fill their daily life. It's not a trait unique to MMOs. It's humans being humans.

Edited, Nov 29th 2009 10:01pm by Karelyn


I'd call that simple observation. On the other hand, if you go around the general population and think you're on the same level as them, I feel sorry for you.
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#91 Nov 30 2009 at 3:58 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Elitism is just a normal part of human condition. People want think they are unique and special individuals, unlike all the other mindless unthinking peons that fill their daily life. It's not a trait unique to MMOs. It's humans being humans


While true, I can assure you most of the elitists don't act the way they do on an MMO in real life. There's a sense of immunity to being represented by something other than yourself(your character).
#92 Nov 30 2009 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry Mykha for going to break your post down like this, but there are things I don't understand,things that **** me off and things I don't know why they are there.

Quote:
Death penalty, I've decided, should be menial. For two reasons:


I don't understand "menial". I looked up some definition online but I'm still clueless about what you're trying to say in relation to Death penalty.



Quote:
1. Elitism.

I like to try to do things slightly undergeared. It's more fun, it's more challenging, and ultimately more rewarding if you succeed. If there's a penalty like exp loss and de-leveling, people will be less inclined to take risks like this, and be more inclined to weed each other out based on the quality of gear.


Basically I read that you like to handicap yourself by putting less effort into gearing up so you have a bigger challenge when it comes to fights. This sounds like a great idea to me, because I'm always up for a tougher challenge once in a while myself.

I guess it's understandable that you are annoyed that you lose a lot more exp then normal because of this. (Btw if you play in WoW in crap gear you suffer less penalty when you die aswel. Isn't that great!)

But I don't get that you are also mad at other people, who only want just the normal challenge and ignore you because of this. They just want an easy going game and go out and have some fun.



Quote:
People will expect you to be overgeared for any given fight, because they don't like dying.

I think anyone who has played an MMO for any reasonable amount of time has at one point or another encountered the extreme elitism from a leader who expects everyone in the party/raid to be far more geared than the content requires.


Actually "not dying" isn't the reason at all. For elitism expectations have advanced a lot further than that: Not dying is taken for granted.

People expect you to be overgeared so you don't waste their time! Why kill a monster slow when you could be killing it fast.



Quote:
Add more real challenge to the game, with extremely challenging fights and difficult fight mechanics. Don't punish the player for experimenting with risky tactics, or needing to try over and over until they succeed. Encourage them to think outside the box, and to be open minded towards unusual party combinations,


First you say they need to add more challenging fights, but then you say it has to be easy enough to win in one or two tries. It's like asking for snow to fall during your summer vacation at the beach. It might be fun swimming under the warm summer sun or making a snowman on a cold day, but mixing them up together just sucks.



Quote:
or more willing to accept that slightly undergeared player that happens to be skilled all the same, because they don't mind messing up a couple times before they finally succeed.


But I thought you wanted fights with extra challenge. So why would you want to join a group of overgeared people? Or where you actually thinking (now be honest here) of making a raid with all undergeared people.



Quote:
2. Encourage players to help each other

In a genre that so heavily emphasizes teamwork and having to help each other succeed, there is often little incentive for players to help each other when the reward goes to a single one of them.

Take for example, the concept of artifact armor in FFXI. In an ideal world, a small group of players in need of artifact armor would stick together and take turns doing the rather tedious tasks to acquire this armor. It might even work out this way in the beginning, but eventually when most players have moved to higher end content, its going to be far more difficult to find people who would be willing to take the time to accomplish something like that. Players who have already taken a job to the max level and who have friends will probably get their friends to help out instead of going through the trouble of getting an entire party of people who need the gear together, and then being obligated to help them with their own.

I don't know about you guys, but I really hate asking others for help or charity. The thing that bothered me the most is when a high level player would be generous enough to help me out yet I would have no way of repaying them or compensating them.

Any task that requires multiple people, should offer equal reward or at least a chance to be rewarded to those players. If there is no incentive to help another player, then it becomes difficult to find someone who is genuinely willing to help.

Compound that with the chance of losing had-earned experience or levels, then that actually serves as a deterrent for players to help each other.

If you couple the advantage of making friends along with the chance for a reward, then everyone wins.

This is one of the biggest mistakes that FFXI made, is requiring players to help each other at their own peril, rather than the chance for rewards. Hopefully SE has realized this and will correct it for FFXIV.


This really made me mad. You're a good willing person. No doubt. And a lot of people agree with you (post is rated up to excellent). But it has such a major flaw in what you have written.

Final Fantasy XI has very strong social linkshells. It's an amazing feature compared to other MMORPGs. These are, at least should be the people to help you out with your stuff. Because of all the hardships these strong shells with close groups of friends were formed. And the reward is there over a long period of time.

And do you know how lowbies, who got helped repay "their debts" that they felt they sometimes had? By helping out other lowbies in the shell when they reached higher level.

I just don't understand why you would want to reward people in cash, etc. for helping other people they don't know. Don't kid yourself into thinking that bounds are being formed. No effort to socialize is being made at all.

I've seen a lot of these posts where people get all high and mighty about "Squaresoft (or insert other random game compagny here) needs to make people care about others", "More teamwork!" and blame, for themselves, everything on stupid little things like this exp penalty for being all alone and needing strangers to help them.

Make some effort to socialize yourself damnit. Go out there and make some friends & join a linkshell!

Again: Make some effort.
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#93 Nov 30 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I don't understand "menial". I looked up some definition online but I'm still clueless about what you're trying to say in relation to Death penalty.


You're right, I meant to use "trivial," not "menial." Menial doesn't make sense at all in that context.

Quote:
Basically I read that you like to handicap yourself by putting less effort into gearing up so you have a bigger challenge when it comes to fights. This sounds like a great idea to me, because I'm always up for a tougher challenge once in a while myself.

I guess it's understandable that you are annoyed that you lose a lot more exp then normal because of this. (Btw if you play in WoW in crap gear you suffer less penalty when you die aswel. Isn't that great!)

But I don't get that you are also mad at other people, who only want just the normal challenge and ignore you because of this. They just want an easy going game and go out and have some fun.


I think you misunderstand what I mean when I say challenging fight mechanics. I am talking about the way that fights are designed. Of course there have to be gear requirements, but they should be very loose requirements. I want extremely difficult fight mechanics that require constant attention, and a deep level of understanding and skill from everyone playing their class. They need to be constantly using different skills and abilities to counteract the bosses attacks and moves. That to me is much more fun than having 16 damage dealers afk auto-attacking, a tank or two using a threat ability every so often and bored healers doling out a heal every once in a while, all of them in wonderful gear.

Quote:
Actually "not dying" isn't the reason at all. For elitism expectations have advanced a lot further than that: Not dying is taken for granted.

People expect you to be overgeared so you don't waste their time! Why kill a monster slow when you could be killing it fast.



This very much depends on the fight. In my experience, people aren't nearly as elitist when the only difference in a fight between the gear of the players is how fast they take down the mob. Often, with the most difficult fights, they view it as a matter of life and death. If you're facing a difficult fight, and happen to wipe a couple of times, the defeat in itself is already very frustrating, and with that many people, there are going to be a couple on the verge of quitting. A painful death penalty isn't necessary to further aggravate and annoy those players, causing them to leave if you mess up once or twice.

Quote:
First you say they need to add more challenging fights, but then you say it has to be easy enough to win in one or two tries. It's like asking for snow to fall during your summer vacation at the beach. It might be fun swimming under the warm summer sun or making a snowman on a cold day, but mixing them up together just sucks.


When I say challenging, I don't mean frustrating and near impossible. The best and most fun kind of fight is when you say "Oh no! We were so close, but we need to change our tactics a little to succeed next time." Take a few tries, learn what kind of attacks the boss is going to use, and how best to respond to those attacks. Then, it's rewarding when you finally beat him. This is just the typical boss. Of course I'm a believer that as far as the hardest bosses in the game go, yes there should be one or two that are in fact near impossible and take a group of very dedicated people to take down.


Quote:
This really made me mad. You're a good willing person. No doubt. And a lot of people agree with you (post is rated up to excellent). But it has such a major flaw in what you have written.

Final Fantasy XI has very strong social linkshells. It's an amazing feature compared to other MMORPGs. These are, at least should be the people to help you out with your stuff. Because of all the hardships these strong shells with close groups of friends were formed. And the reward is there over a long period of time.

And do you know how lowbies, who got helped repay "their debts" that they felt they sometimes had? By helping out other lowbies in the shell when they reached higher level.

I just don't understand why you would want to reward people in cash, etc. for helping other people they don't know. Don't kid yourself into thinking that bounds are being formed. No effort to socialize is being made at all.

I've seen a lot of these posts where people get all high and mighty about "Squaresoft (or insert other random game compagny here) needs to make people care about others", "More teamwork!" and blame, for themselves, everything on stupid little things like this exp penalty for being all alone and needing strangers to help them.

Make some effort to socialize yourself damnit. Go out there and make some friends & join a linkshell!

Again: Make some effort.


I understand your point, but from my personal experience, when two people go out and participate in an activity that only one person benefits from, it tends to put a strain on any kind of relationship formed. Lets say for example, that I am in need of a group for my AF leggings. I'll sit around in jeuno or whitegate for a while shouting for a group, maybe asking some fellow linkshell members or some friends of mine. I might get lucky and find a person or two around my level willing to help out. Unfortunately, after sitting around looking for more members, the people I found become bored and leave to do other activities. Luckily, a higher level linkshell member has a bit of time so he decides to help out. We get out to the camping spot and things aren't going well. It's a little difficult for him to solo the mobs, and so we die a couple times. He then gets one of his friends to come out and help as well. We are taking down the mobs at a very slow but steady pace.
We're starting to become a little annoyed and frustrated that it's been 2 hours and we haven't had that coffer key drop yet. I'm starting to worry about my high level helpers leaving because its been so long and they are clearly showing signs of being bored and frustrated. I try and keep the conversation going, but its been so long its getting more difficult. It's harder to communicate with someone when 80% of communication is body language, and the only thing you have to go by is what they type. Normally I might have become good friends with these people, but under the stress and one-sidedness of the situation I am feeling a little bit on the defensive, and a little bit helpless, like what a begger would feel asking for spare change from a lawyer. The higher level players are relieved when the key finally drops, but really what did they get out of it? A few thousand experience points and a few hours of their playtime lost helping some lowbie that may or may not be playing next month. Well, at least they got their helping quota in for the month. Now they can go do something that will actually benefit them and move their character forward in the world. Hopefully that newbie will remember what I did for them, and be grateful for it. Bye newbie. Bye high level player, thanks for helping me get my AF legs.

5 minutes later in linkshell chat:

newbie: can anyone help me get my AF gloves?

Now I know that not everyone is gonna have the same experience, but when you're forced to constantly get help from higher level players, they're going to start avoiding you, regardless of how fun or friendly you are to be around. I don't care how selfless or helpful of a player you are, sooner or later after helping so many lowbies, you're going to start to resent helping them, even more so with the ungrateful ones.

My point is, if there wasn't such a painful death penalty, and at least some kind of reward for helping these players out, its a mutually beneficial relationship, and thus there is little or no strain put on the relationship, and players are able to form bonds more easily.
#94 Nov 30 2009 at 2:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've always been a fan of XP debt instead of XP loss myself. It's a second XP value you need to work off before you can start gaining XP again. It can be the character itself to stop abuse of racking it up on a certain job you don't care to further anymore.
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#95 Nov 30 2009 at 2:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
This really made me mad. You're a good willing person. No doubt. And a lot of people agree with you (post is rated up to excellent). But it has such a major flaw in what you have written.

Final Fantasy XI has very strong social linkshells. It's an amazing feature compared to other MMORPGs. These are, at least should be the people to help you out with your stuff. Because of all the hardships these strong shells with close groups of friends were formed. And the reward is there over a long period of time.

And do you know how lowbies, who got helped repay "their debts" that they felt they sometimes had? By helping out other lowbies in the shell when they reached higher level.

I just don't understand why you would want to reward people in cash, etc. for helping other people they don't know. Don't kid yourself into thinking that bounds are being formed. No effort to socialize is being made at all.

I've seen a lot of these posts where people get all high and mighty about "Squaresoft (or insert other random game compagny here) needs to make people care about others", "More teamwork!" and blame, for themselves, everything on stupid little things like this exp penalty for being all alone and needing strangers to help them.

Make some effort to socialize yourself damnit. Go out there and make some friends & join a linkshell!

Again: Make some effort.


Good will and friendship can only stretch so far before it snaps. You could be the nicest guy in the world, helping everyone you come across while never asking for anything in return, and there's going to be a point where you start to wonder why you're doing all this. Where's the benefit? Not everyone is a saint, nor should we expect the max level guy helping with your AF to be. 95% of the population is out for themselves, even the extremely helpful ones.

I'm all for a heavy social game, all for teamwork, all for helping one another. Nobody is blaming the exp penalty for the reason for needing help. Honestly, the reason we need help, is with the exception of 1 or 2 jobs, you simply can't solo after lv15. I understand that stuff akin to AF should require groups, but there's simply nothing soloable for most jobs, unless you incredibly out level it.
#96 Nov 30 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
Karelyn wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
If you look at WoW for money loss: people really don't care if they're going to die. The penalty is just too weak.

That is so far from the truth.

Nobody wants to die in WoW, because running back to their corpse is time consuming.


Of course nobody wants to die, but running back to a corpse was far from time consuming. Still though, nobody cared if they died. It was just "Oh, wewps time to run back to my body."


For you, maybe. You're not exactly in a position to be speaking about the community as a whole.

See, not everyone feels that the goal in an MMO is to not die. "Oh, I died. Crap. Bludgeon me. Make it hurt. Ya, that's right. More."

The goal...is to accomplish a goal (fancy that!) So you decide you're going to go kill this monster over here. Maybe it's for a quest or a mission or some xp. Maybe it's just for ***** and giggles. The monster chews your face off. You failed. And, because monsters in MMOs all over the place have access to miraculous out-of-combat health regen the likes of which players will probably never see, a few seconds after the mob finished snacking on your forehead, he's back at full health. Any progress you made in attempting to kill said monster is now lost.

For most people, that's enough. Do they need 5 minutes of rez sickness or a 5 minute run back to their corpse to be reminded that failure is no fun? Nope. Do they need to be told that not only did any progress they made towards killing that mean monster is now lost, any progress they gained as a result of killing the three previous mean monsters is now also lost? No. So let's not play fanboi games and defend stupid mechanics. When I was a kid I didn't need to be beaten to a bloody pulp to realize that throwing toys at my brother was not kosher. I don't need to be assessed a $50 penalty for paying a $30 phone bill two days late to know that the situation was not ideal.

And I sure as **** don't need a 5 minute time-out in conjunction with lost xp and durability damage on my gear to know that failing at a particular task in an MMO is not the idea.
#97 Nov 30 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
For most people, that's enough. Do they need 5 minutes of rez sickness or a 5 minute run back to their corpse to be reminded that failure is no fun? Nope. Do they need to be told that not only did any progress they made towards killing that mean monster is now lost, any progress they gained as a result of killing the three previous mean monsters is now also lost? No. So let's not play fanboi games and defend stupid mechanics. When I was a kid I didn't need to be beaten to a bloody pulp to realize that throwing toys at my brother was not kosher. I don't need to be assessed a $50 penalty for paying a $30 phone bill two days late to know that the situation was not ideal.


Players don't "need" anything, penalties are not to throw salt on the wound like you are making it seem. Death penalties are to add a risk factor to the game that you cannot achieve by any other way. Not many people would gamble if there was no risk of losing their money. Money which most of us doesn't have an unlimited supply of. The risk draws interest to the game for many people. Death penalties also are implemented so game mechanics cannot be abused. That is what weakness did for FFXI, it stopped people from abusing the game. It didn't stop zerging, but it did stop zombie killing every boss. It wasn't perfect and no system is, but it served an important purpose. A purpose that wasn't just to throw salt on the wounds of players.

You really think developers sit in their office and think like this "hmmm how can I just make gamers day **** while they play my game"? No they don't, but some penalties serve a better purpose for the overall game. The pros (clean game mechanics, and a risk) definitely outweighed the cons (some players whining). I think an improved game would have made it much less whining about this issue. If players wasn't forced to seek a party just to get the exp back, then it probably would of been much less whining. I don't think it was the penalties that made players whine, but I think it was what you was forced to do if you suffered that penalty. Which was to seek and wait and find a party just to get some exp back.

As far as death penalties stopping people from doing anything, it may or may not be true but it wasn't obvious on the server that I played on. As soon as new areas was released there was tons of people in there exploring it, and I mean minutes after the servers just came up. As soon as new missions was released it was tons of people (including myself and my ls) doing the bcnms, as soon as the servers came up. I have been a part of and saw many low-man fights, almost of every hnm on FFXI. From the duo genbu, to 16 man tiamat, to 12 man Cerberus fights etc, and they was a ton of fun. A lot of things wouldn't have happened if the risk of dieing really influenced players to stay tucked away in their moghouses.
#98 Nov 30 2009 at 9:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
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188 posts
Quote:
Not many people would gamble if there was no risk of losing their money.


Yes absolutely, a gamblers favorite thing is losing his money. In fact, if he never lost money gamling, he wouldn't do it!

MMO players are gluttons for punishment. If there is no punishment, players avoid it like the plague, i.e. WoW's massive financial flop.
#99 Dec 01 2009 at 2:59 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
*
129 posts
Quote:
MMO players are gluttons for punishment. If there is no punishment, players avoid it like the plague, i.e. WoW's massive financial flop.


Players avoid easy games like the plague. You can make a game challenging without making it's death penalty extreme.

And what financial flop? Last I checked, WoW is still going strong.
#100 Dec 01 2009 at 5:53 AM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
And what financial flop? Last I checked, WoW is still going strong.


. . . =/
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#101 Dec 01 2009 at 6:55 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
18 posts
Anyone remember Phoenix Downs from the old FF games? What about them in FFXIV?
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