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Instanced areas / dungeons as storytelling mechanismsFollow

#1 Nov 18 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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FFXI fans, myself included, often cite to the storylines of the final fantasy series as part of the appeal of FFXI and, hopefully, FFXIV.

One of the things that Blizzard accomplished masterfully with the Wrath of the Lich King expansion was using the instanced dungeons to advance the plotline of the expansion by events within instanced dungeons or areas. The Lich King appeared in several scripted events throughout the content progression, and really provided a feeling of immersion in the story if you followed the sequence logically. You fought minions and lesser vassals of the main antagonist or lesser, tangential antagonists (Yogg-Saron, Kel'thuzad), but there was a clear reason why you were doing everything. This is somewhat akin to the progress of "Missions" within FFXI.

To what extent do you wish to see dungeons in FFXIV?

To what extent do you wish for those dungeons to be instanced?

To what extent/how do you wish dungeons to advance the plot-line?

Would you rather see a nation/city-state, segmented approach as in FFXI, or a unified story across all nations/city-states?

Obviously my opinion is already known. I like dungeons advancing the plotline, and I like dungeons to be instanced. The idea of hurrying to claim a piece of content faster than or over another individual or group seems to detract from the plot to me, focusing the attention (unnecessarily) on game mechanics rather than story immersion.

As for the segmented vs. unified approach, I see advantages in both. I like a competitive streak among allies, vying for superiority. But I think I greatly prefer the idea of banding together with your compatriots in one major plotline for all players, not subdividing content based on allegiance. Also, if it's one major overarching plotline, the need to generate separate content for individual nations ceases which allows more attention to creating more content for everyone.

I'd like to see instanced dungeons used extensively to advance a single, unified plotline (with some minor, tangential content related to city-states, not required for advancement per se, just for fun).

Opinions?
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#2 Nov 18 2009 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I think it needs to be a combination. At the very least you should not have to wait for spawns. I think similar to how XI did, where mainly the boss fights were instanced....if you weren't in the party you couldn't help with the fight. This keeps the fights difficult and allows for multiple parties doing the same thing. Basically just like XI but without the zoning (unless you zone into a boss fight). What I do hope for is that you have to kill whatever is in the way before you get to the boss. Too many times you could sneak and invisi right passed all the mobs straight to the boss.

In regards to the city-state thing, I don't think missions will be based on where you are from, but rather where you get the mission. If you read the plot line so far it seems like all the city-states have united to fight. Each nation will have their own "enemy" and you can probably get guild leves to fight that enemy and get items etc. Limsa Lominsa has the pirates and possibly the Knights of the Barracuda. Either way I hope all nations have one main plot line that leads up to one final boss and that regardless of your starting city-state you can group with members of other city-states. Boss fights should be instanced and to get up to the boss you must complete a puzzle or fight groups of mobs.
#3 Nov 19 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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On the world map (if you will) I don't want any instanced dungeons.

Instanced dungeons for boss fights (missions or what not) is a must though.

Also, other instanced content is ok: ex) salvage, dynamis, etc.
-DO NOT MAKE IT SO ONLY ONE GROUP CAN DO DYNAMIS or a similar event at once SE!!

But as far as exploring the world, I think FFXI did a good job of it. Though I hope accessibility to leveling areas will be easier and have a wider variety if not just larger zones where we can fight/level up (in b4 'NO LEVELS!!! We are essentially leveling up through building our character and it's easier to say).
#4 Nov 19 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Decent
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I would like to see a mix of both open world dungeons and instanced quest/mission dungeons and boss fights. Waiting for a boss to spawn is lame, IMO.

I would like to be able to go looking around inside of caves and old castles or whatever without having a mission tied to it. I just like exploring around to see what I run into. I loved that about XI even though by the time I got around to "exploring" everything was pretty much covered in a guide or faq by then.

I'm wondering if all quests, main story or not, are picked up by way of guildleve. I would kinda miss talking to NPC townspeople and such.
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#5 Nov 19 2009 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd like to see more instanced content, especially in the lower levels. It would give players something aside from the grind/leves to do, while giving them some practice in the role they are filling in a group.

Quote:
I'm wondering if all quests, main story or not, are picked up by way of guildleve. I would kinda miss talking to NPC townspeople and such.


I'm sure you'll still find random NPC quests, but I'm going to assume the major/plot related quests will be through the Guild Leves.
#6 Nov 19 2009 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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No world map instances. That stuffs lame. Boss instances are a must, though. I really enjoyed CoP style and the BCNMs.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#7 Nov 21 2009 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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TheShadowWalker wrote:
No world map instances. That stuffs lame. Boss instances are a must, though. I really enjoyed CoP style and the BCNMs.
Sounds like personal opinion to me. Expand a bit as to why you think that the game, as a whole, would not benefit from this? Opinions are fine and everything, but at least explain why you don't like things.
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#8 Nov 21 2009 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm a big fan of Triggered Events, so I'm by default a big fan of Instances. Unlike a cutscene the player remains firmly seated within the gameplay at all times, it can be occuring alongside action - serving to enhance it instead of conflict with it, it's something everyone sees no matter what quest they're on. Every other method of storytelling can be used in Instances and Open-world equally, however, Triggered Events basically require Instanced content that's more than just boss battles. Oddly, Triggered Events don't get alot of play in MMOs, being more masterfully handled by First Person Shooters if you can believe it. But with the advent of instances, the potential is there, and I'd like to see it explored more thoroughly.

Other methods of storytelling are good too, but they have their shortcomings.

For as much flak as instances get for being isolating, Phased Environments are pretty bad too.
Phased Environments change the models of an environment based on where a player is in a questline. The caveat is that only players on the same phase can interact with eachother while in that environment, and you can never switch to a previous phase. It's sort of like an instance you can't bring just anyone to.

Environment Storytelling is something most every game takes a stab at, it's just that the conversation between environment and player is rarely eloquent. Valley of Sorrows is pretty typical of the MMO genre, it conveys "desert". That's all it says. Valley of Sorrows is an example of an Environment. The corpse of a scientist sitting in the corner of a girl's room with a few dozen bloodsucking utensils stabbed into him is something that actually took me half a sentence to write. This is using the Environment to tell a Story. The downside is that these stories are inert images, and can be missed. Because they're optional, in a way, one can't build on top of another like a cutscene can. They're at best, garnishes to plot.

Cutscenes are something I generally like, except when they're abused, which is far too often.
Cutscenes encourage this sort of action/plot conflict. Because the camera is being moved, control is taken away from the player. This means action and plot can never occur in tandem, even on little ambiance things. Furthermore developers get lazy, letting plot and action separate out like oil and water. An epic fight plays out schizophrenically, with an enemy being willing to read you a book one minute yet unwilling to even spare you a mid-battle heckle the next. Cutscenes end up doing all the footwork for all the characterization and plot that can be conveyed - perhaps more effectively - during the battles themselves. XT-002 Deconstructor's in-battle dialouge is top-notch characterization. Everything that's said is a reaction to the battle itself, and it's quirky persona would have difficult to convey in a single one-liner cutscene.



Edited, Nov 21st 2009 11:39pm by Zemzelette
#9 Nov 21 2009 at 10:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Sounds like personal opinion to me. Expand a bit as to why you think that the game, as a whole, would not benefit from this? Opinions are fine and everything, but at least explain why you don't like things.
That's because it obviously is one. You really shouldn't have to go around saying, "I think this, but you don't have to because it's an opinion." People should be able to figure that out for themselves.

However... if you must have a reason:
[minor preface...

When I say "like counter strike" I understand that counter strike has servers and ffxiv will have servers but I'm making the assumption that CSS GAME:FFXIV World as FFXIV instance:CSS server.

If you don't find that apt, we can discuss it further.

(well, I'll just say why here.. in CSS you're free to move from server to server but not game to game. There's really only one CSS world and you get to that by going on steam and you can't change to a different CSS world with different servers. In FFXI (probably ffxiv) you can only choose one server (world) and you're stuck on it (with your character), but you would be able to move between instances (change party members, etc).]

2 extremes: everything is instanced; nothing is instanced

Everything instanced:

Basically a game like counter strike where there are thousands of the same map being played at the same time, but no one influences each other unless they are in each others respective instance.
Pros:
No indirect competition - The PCs you see are on your team and you're all working together.
Difficulty can be adjusted to how many people enter which means less time waiting around.
Cons:
Hardly an RPG experience - Unless you've give the world your playing in very odd qualities, it's not exactly immersive. (ie whatever world you're playing in, characters regularly disappear when you start a mission and curiously, no one is attempting the same thing you are, at the same time.
No indirect competition - something I rather enjoy in an MMO (racing to see which team manages to get to the end first and survive, that sort of thing [obviously not referring to NM fights]).


Nothing instanced:

A true mmorpg. Creates a world where players can affect one another as long as they are in the same world (ffxiv server).
Pros:
Pretty immersive experience - That guy you just saw buying a sword at the AH? oh yeah, he's going to try to kill Mee Degi, too. Just you wait. NIN sitting around talking to random people? Yeah, he might be walking to Norg, too - kicking *** along the way and wiping out all the MOBs to let you roam freely.
Less arbitrary magic that is rarely explained with a storyline - same as the immersion but I wanted to specifically address this. You have a couple of kinds of instances in my experience: 1) Those like in WoW, where you walk through a portal and bam, you're.. in an instance. Absolutely no reason why everyone except your party members disappeared and it's never addressed. 2) The FFXI instances where you have something like a BCNM and it's explained what's going on with some plot.[I like the second kind]
Cons:
Can be tiresome and a pain in the **** if you aren't trying to devote a lot of time to doing something that's very popular.


Now, I'd like something in between. Something that has instances where you need it and doesn't where you don't. I say you need instances at times, because... well you do. There are just too many players and too little content in any mmorpg. There are always going to be things everyone wants to do. The "World Map Instances," I referred to earlier, are things like big portals in a dungeon. Essentially, random things that don't teleport you, make everyone disappear, and spawn mobs. I don't find these necessary. If there's no story advancement happening, you don't need it to be "just you and the mobs."

"Mission instances" I'd call things like BCNMs, or the CoP missions (partially instanced). In these you are working through a story or fighting a boss that might have dialogue. For obvious reasons you can't just have anklebitersixnine running circles around the LEET DRAGON OF DOOM as he hands you your heads on a silver platter, screaming "YOU DARE AWAKEN ME FROM MY SLUMBER??!?!"

Also, the missions would just get too crowded without instances. The "world map" ones seem to be primarily designed so everyone can get certain drops without much indirect p2p competition. Some people might want that particular drop, but most people seem to like working through the storyline missions. That means, as busy as a certain NM might seem, without instanced storyline missions, they(the storyline missions) will be 2x busier. (yes, I pulled that multiplier out of my ***)

Edited, Nov 21st 2009 11:27pm by TheShadowWalker

Edited, Nov 21st 2009 11:28pm by TheShadowWalker
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#10 Nov 22 2009 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Hardly an RPG experience - Unless you've give the world your playing in very odd qualities, it's not exactly immersive. (ie whatever world you're playing in, characters regularly disappear when you start a mission and curiously, no one is attempting the same thing you are, at the same time.


I don't understand this, particularly why it's not an RPG experience. It does no more to break the immersion than zone load times.

My ideal instance, for those of us who've played Wienercraft, is the Culling of Stratholme. It takes an iconic event (which, FFXIV doesn't have iconic events that we know of, yet) and lets you play through it. It's somewhat like the whole "Lion and the Black Dragon" instance in mission 2-3, except it's not just walking in and fighting a boss. It's not like Promies where your objective is just to kill a boss at the end. You actually see plotline unfolding before your eyes, and then play along with it.

Granted, the Caverns of Time instances are all kinda goofy in terms of how they fit in the plot, but to have one scripted like that where you get to play along with the action in an event that shapes the story is A++ in my book. I'd like to see that happen at every stage throughout the experience of FFXIV.

I'd also like to avoid the situation where you basically level to 75 and THEN do the plot. Obviously that's not how everyone does it, especially because waiting that long to get an airship pass would've sucked. But it sure would be nice to have an immersing plot that has a clear line of progression that starts earlier. Just a wish, I guess.
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#11 Nov 22 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:


I don't understand this, particularly why it's not an RPG experience. It does no more to break the immersion than zone load times.
I.. can't see how you came to that conclusion. First, zone load times are obvious pitfalls regarding immersion. Second, it's not like instances just a new area to you. They open a new area that people can simultaneously enter, then be put in different, equal, spaces. This is sort of the opposite of a zone line. A zone line takes everyone to the same, preexisting, place. A instance portal creates a space for every unique party that goes in.

I would include a level of community as an RPG experience. Unless you're RPing as the only person alive on a planet, having these private areas opened up to you where no one else can go, really doesn't make sense.

Also, you're comparing zone load times, something that's a hardware issue, with a game dynamic. I'm pretty sure no developer would choose to have load times if they didn't need them. It's not like anyone likes opening a door in oblivion and waiting 30 seconds to enter the building.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#12 Nov 22 2009 at 5:21 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:

I'd also like to avoid the situation where you basically level to 75 and THEN do the plot. Obviously that's not how everyone does it, especially because waiting that long to get an airship pass would've sucked. But it sure would be nice to have an immersing plot that has a clear line of progression that starts earlier. Just a wish, I guess.
You don't think FFXI had a clear line of progression that started early? It takes a while to go from step to step sometimes, but I'm quite sure I started the Nation missions at level 5~ and didn't finish until past 50, at which point there was more content.

I see your point about regarding the larger instance boss type fights, and I agree. I think mission instances are quite all right. However, having a dozen portals that just lead to different NM raids just so everyone can get a drop without fear of PC competition, are stupid.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#13 Nov 22 2009 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You don't think FFXI had a clear line of progression that started early? It takes a while to go from step to step sometimes, but I'm quite sure I started the Nation missions at level 5~ and didn't finish until past 50, at which point there was more content.


While the Mission system was really fleshed out back in the old days, comparatively speaking, it's lacking by today's standards. What kills it is that it is comprised of progressive steps but does so only in this little microcosm far and away from your character. It's Progressive, but it's not Progression. Grinding is how you progress through the game. Missions were just a sidedish.

Pity, too, as it was the tastiest part of the meal.




Quote:
I see your point about regarding the larger instance boss type fights, and I agree. I think mission instances are quite all right. However, having a dozen portals that just lead to different NM raids just so everyone can get a drop without fear of PC competition, are stupid.



But what about the reasons unrelated to competition?
Like server integrity, population control, or the storytelling reasons I've outlined and Jayrams has provided an excellent example of? (The Culling of Stratholme is an instance where the plot is driven entirely by the use of Triggered Events.)



Edited, Nov 22nd 2009 7:32pm by Zemzelette
#14 Nov 22 2009 at 7:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

While the Mission system was really fleshed out back in the old days, comparatively speaking, it's lacking by today's standards. What kills it is that it is comprised of progressive steps but does so only in this little microcosm far and away from your character. It's Progressive, but it's not Progression. Grinding is how you progress through the game. Missions were just a sidedish.

Pity, too, as it was the tastiest part of the meal.
Will just reply to this as I must shower and watch Curb Your Enthusiasm.

I see your point but it depends on what it means to "beat the game" to you. If hitting 75 and getting sweet *** armor is beating the game, yes missions are merely a side dish. On the other hand, you could choose to use the leveling as a side dish and count yourself as a winner only when you've finished the nation missions. Neither is the right way to do it, but I think it's nice to have the choice.

Some people really enjoyed leveling and getting gear.

Some really enjoyed missions.

Some liked both. I think this is one thing FFXI did really well and balanced evenly.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#15 Nov 22 2009 at 8:52 PM Rating: Default
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For endgames events, ie Dynamis, Salvage, etc., dungeons should be instanced. Dungeons will lead to a boss for a quest/mission/etc., ie Promyvion, Delkfutt's Tower, etc., should be open world. Actual area where you fight said boss, should be instanced or the boss should respawn quickly(like that Corse or whatever they call them you fight in the Sacrarium).

I hope there more dungeon crawling in FFXIV. There almost wasn't any post-CoP.
#16 Nov 22 2009 at 11:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette wrote:
Quote:
You don't think FFXI had a clear line of progression that started early? It takes a while to go from step to step sometimes, but I'm quite sure I started the Nation missions at level 5~ and didn't finish until past 50, at which point there was more content.


While the Mission system was really fleshed out back in the old days, comparatively speaking, it's lacking by today's standards. What kills it is that it is comprised of progressive steps but does so only in this little microcosm far and away from your character. It's Progressive, but it's not Progression. Grinding is how you progress through the game. Missions were just a sidedish.

Pity, too, as it was the tastiest part of the meal.




Missions are the what you enjoy, and leveling was the grind. For myself, it was collecting equipemnt and leveling/meriting that was fun, while missions were a grind. I hated the storyline and the horrible dialogue, and overall it was just something I did to get access to new areas. I believe that there are many out there who wouldn't touch a mission if it had no reward at the end.

I know you're stating the way you feel, but please don't generalize everyone into one group.



Quote:
For endgames events, ie Dynamis, Salvage, etc., dungeons should be instanced. Dungeons will lead to a boss for a quest/mission/etc., ie Promyvion, Delkfutt's Tower, etc., should be open world. Actual area where you fight said boss, should be instanced or the boss should respawn quickly(like that Corse or whatever they call them you fight in the Sacrarium).


I must say I don't agree with this. If you make it this way, then the whole game will just be empty after everyone completes their missions. I'd say have instanced events (Einherjar, Dynamis, Salvage, etc...), but also keep open world events.

I really enjoyed the Sea NMs, and Sky NMs (the newer pop methods), where you had to farm up pops (which could be done in medium sized groups), and then had to fight harder and harder mobs (needed alliances). This had some interaction between people, in the forms of both competition and aid.

The real-time concept of sky always had me hooked, when there was always some NM to fight or different pops to farm. Don't get me wrong, I loved salvage, but by run 500 of starting naked on floor 1, I wanted to shoot myself. There's was just too much repetition, and not enough variety.

Edited, Nov 23rd 2009 12:28am by Pluelf

Edited, Nov 23rd 2009 12:29am by Pluelf
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#17 Nov 23 2009 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
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JayRams wrote:
FFXI fans, myself included, often cite to the storylines of the final fantasy series as part of the appeal of FFXI and, hopefully, FFXIV.

Would you rather see a nation/city-state, segmented approach as in FFXI, or a unified story across all nations/city-states?


As for the segmented vs. unified approach, I see advantages in both. I like a competitive streak among allies, vying for superiority. But I think I greatly prefer the idea of banding together with your compatriots in one major plotline for all players, not subdividing content based on allegiance. Also, if it's one major overarching plotline, the need to generate separate content for individual nations ceases which allows more attention to creating more content for everyone.

I'd like to see instanced dungeons used extensively to advance a single, unified plotline (with some minor, tangential content related to city-states, not required for advancement per se, just for fun).

Opinions?


Personally, I loved how XI was set up with each nation having their own storyline that intertwined with the main one. I think it expanded the scope of the story instead of limiting it. Having all these stories going on makes the world feel bigger, while only having one story would feel as though there's not much going on.

Like with the Wings of the Goddess mission progression- there are three different sets of important events happening, showing that the situation is far more urgent and desperate than if there was only one storyline going on.

I do have to admit though, that I think Wings of the Goddess does the segmented/branching storyline better than the original nation missions. For one thing, people are/were discouraged from swapping nation allegience due to losing outpost warps and signet time, etc. Whereas players are free to experience the WotG nation storylines at will without any penalties.

So, basically, if players are free to explore each seperate branch of the segmented/intertwining story, I think it's a much more rich and meaningful experience. Just because the stories are slightly different doesn't mean that the player isn't getting as much content or that the seperate stories are neccesarily being skimped on.
#18 Nov 23 2009 at 2:24 AM Rating: Decent
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::blink:: :::brow furrows in confusion::
Maybe I should have worded that better.

When I say progression, I mean in the sense of an objective overview of overall content the developer creates. Crafting, Levelling, Missions, Cutscenes, Zones, the whole thing. How you particularly feel about any of these isn't really a factor speaking in this sense. You can derive great enjoyment from mastering that Airship glitch that lets you float over the ledge, but that doesn't mean you've progressed your character.

So by "Sidedish", I'm just referring to how little of that objective content is accessed solely through missions.



Edited, Nov 23rd 2009 3:38am by Zemzelette
#19 Nov 23 2009 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Another of the many reasons I prefer instances as a storytelling mechanism is that I HATE HATE HATE walking up on a plot event halfway while someone else is doing it. I can't think of an example in FFXI, but you can get the idea easily enough: some designated "???" is where you are directed by an NPC to advance the next part of the plot, and when you get there, someone else already has it activated and it's like you're starting the DVD at Chapter 7 instead of Chapter 1.

Or what if you got your party together for this big epic escort type of event, but you get to the NPC and they're gone, walking off with another party. First, it breaks immersion because the NPC will magically reappear at some point for you to do the exact same thing again. Second, it's needless, silly waiting.
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#20 Nov 23 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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To what extent do you wish to see dungeons in FFXIV?

I would like to see a mix of general open dungeons for things like ruined cities and interconected cave networks and as area and story punctuation.

To what extent do you wish for those dungeons to be instanced?

Again I would personaly like to see a mix, some be public only and some have public and instinced options. Magor story events should take place in instinces, I do agree with that but it would be nice to be able to have some general leves for public access versions. Maybe have differant bosses for the public and private versions, as well as mobs setups and traps... hehe.

To what extent/how do you wish dungeons to advance the plot-line?

Some, I would hope it's not the only outlet for story advancment.

Would you rather see a nation/city-state, segmented approach as in FFXI, or a unified story across all nations/city-states?

Well it sounds like they are going with an overarching story with localised side storylines. I would realy like to see some kind of ability to choose to stear your characters personal story experiance for minor story points.. Kind of like Fable II but without some of the magor envromental effects, I'm thinking more like NPC reactions and availablity of certain levels and events.
#21 Nov 25 2009 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:

For endgames events, ie Dynamis, Salvage, etc., dungeons should be instanced. Dungeons will lead to a boss for a quest/mission/etc., ie Promyvion, Delkfutt's Tower, etc., should be open world. Actual area where you fight said boss, should be instanced or the boss should respawn quickly(like that Corse or whatever they call them you fight in the Sacrarium).



I must say I don't agree with this. If you make it this way, then the whole game will just be empty after everyone completes their missions. I'd say have instanced events (Einherjar, Dynamis, Salvage, etc...), but also keep open world events.

I really enjoyed the Sea NMs, and Sky NMs (the newer pop methods), where you had to farm up pops (which could be done in medium sized groups), and then had to fight harder and harder mobs (needed alliances). This had some interaction between people, in the forms of both competition and aid.

The real-time concept of sky always had me hooked, when there was always some NM to fight or different pops to farm. Don't get me wrong, I loved salvage, but by run 500 of starting naked on floor 1, I wanted to shoot myself. There's was just too much repetition, and not enough variety.


Well considering the combination of sea and sky rarely surpass 200 people in population. Sea usually having less than 10 people. To say the world would be "empty" if they were instanced is ludicrous. Then there's that sky/sea would fall under "Dungeons which lead to a boss for a quest/mission/etc."

But overall, you're right, I am against endgame events like sky. It just felt so repetitive, even after only going a few times. I enjoyed sea however. I would still be for both areas open world, simply because how beautiful they are. However, the endgame events they contain, no thanks. But then again, it gives you reason to keep coming back. lol. I don't know. I'll say I'm indifferent on that subject.
#22 Nov 25 2009 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I must say I don't agree with this. If you make it this way, then the whole game will just be empty after everyone completes their missions. I'd say have instanced events (Einherjar, Dynamis, Salvage, etc...), but also keep open world events.

I really enjoyed the Sea NMs, and Sky NMs (the newer pop methods), where you had to farm up pops (which could be done in medium sized groups), and then had to fight harder and harder mobs (needed alliances). This had some interaction between people, in the forms of both competition and aid.

The real-time concept of sky always had me hooked, when there was always some NM to fight or different pops to farm. Don't get me wrong, I loved salvage, but by run 500 of starting naked on floor 1, I wanted to shoot myself. There's was just too much repetition, and not enough variety.


I agree with this, I think FFXI did a good job with a mixture of instanced and open world events. I feel like every event being instanced would make the world feel really empty to me. I enjoyed the fact I could see a random person in town and then see them many more times, in many different places, just by accident. It gave you the feeling of being in a Real World. I also like some form of competition (that's not PvP combat) and events in the open world made the community more familiar with each other. Now I could do without the botting claims and stuff, but competition was fun. I never played WoW but my friends tell me all the time, how they really didn't know many people on their server besides the people in their guild. I felt like I knew almost everybody on my FFXI server, just by being beside them a lot at many different events.

I'm not saying that everything should be open world. I would like a mixture of events, kind of like how FFXI is made up. Instances begin to get rather boring after the tenth time (not alone thousandth time) you've done them. At least open world events has an audience and different people there to talk too, and make a different experience even if you are doing the same thing.

Now I think that guildleve will be a huge part of endgame and will be instanced, I just hope (and pray) that there is still a lot of open world content. The reason why I pay to play MMO's in the first place is to play with a large community of people, not to be on an island with just my linkshell every event. You can't even tell your brother/sister (or whoever that plays but doesn't live with you) to come watch you kill something cool, if everything was instanced.

Zones and instances is two very different things. Zones first of all, is not preferred, it is a hardware issue. I don't think many developers want to have you open a door and wait 30 seconds to zone in. Second of all, a zone puts everybody in the same place, but an instance creates a parallel space that only you and your group is in, it just looks the same.
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