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Do we really want HNM times changed?Follow

#1 Nov 26 2009 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Blazed here,

Recently retired after 7 years of Hardcore FFXI (Hardest thing in my life to do)
Did the whole end game ordeal for 4 years yada, yada... got tired of the whole wait 21 hours, Show up at 6pm with 10 other linkshells to get out claimed by 3 Japanese players who were half sleep.

The obvious answer to the question is yes. but how do we want it changed.
Shorter spawn times?
I think i can speak for all when i say yes 21hour - 3days waiting for a HNM is a bit extreme. But if they do cater do our request and change it to say... 8 hour pop limit. Whats the actual benefit besides a lot of people competition every 8 hours instead of every 21-24. More chances to claim?
Besides having to be called every 8 hours

Do we want The HNM POP Time itself changed.

or

Do we want the items the HNM holds more obtainable thus asking for decreased spawn times.

My own opinion i think having HNM times around 10-16 hours is more feesible.
But with other options of obtaining the items the HNM holds. Could be split around HNM, ZNM, KS, BCNM or similiar like events in FFXIV.

Please no negative feedback
just trying to better understand what people want opposed to what they ask for
Blazed

Edited, Nov 26th 2009 4:20pm by Blazerman
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#2 Nov 26 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Every time someone mentions NMs I bring up the Public Quests from Warhammer Online. It's an ingenious way to give people a fair shot at the rewards. This way you'll know when the NM will pop. You don't need to stand around for hours waiting to claim the NM since you don't even need to claim it. It's based on contribution. The more you contribute the greater the chance of getting a reward and the more you participate but fail to get a reward the better your chances become. There are many rewards that are handed out to various people (something like 3-10 people usually get rewards) and they aren't fixed, you get to choose what you want to receive. The only problem in with the PQs in WAR is the fact that they haven't balanced very well for tanks but that, I believe, can be easily fixed.
#3 Nov 26 2009 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Shorter times just mean more chances to claim, nothing will change about the camping situation. If they are in the open world, I just think a mixture of stuff can work. I wouldn't mind having them all completely random either, from maybe 10 minutes after killed to 7 days. This would just lead to 100 mules at every hnm and people just loggin in to check around the clock, though. There is no perfect way to do this in the open world, unless you make them all spawn by trading an item. But then, it would take all the competition (aka the fun) out of hnm killing for me, and some other people. After killing the same mob a hundred times, the fight is just routine. The fun part is having the competition with other linkshells and an audience watching you kill, hoping you wipe. However they do endgame though i'm sure I'll just deal with it.

I don't think when FFXI was made, SE expected people to be camping HNMs, it kind of just happened. SE thought that people would just bump into them, not hardcore camping every 21-24 window. They now gained knowledge of this, so I doubt most of Endgame will be in the open world even though I hope it is. I think most of the HNM killing will probably be through the guildleves. I just hope titles remain if most of the endgame content is instanced, because it at least brings notice to your accomplishments.


Quote:
Every time someone mentions NMs I bring up the Public Quests from Warhammer Online. It's an ingenious way to give people a fair shot at the rewards. This way you'll know when the NM will pop. You don't need to stand around for hours waiting to claim the NM since you don't even need to claim it. It's based on contribution. The more you contribute the greater the chance of getting a reward and the more you participate but fail to get a reward the better your chances become. There are many rewards that are handed out to various people (something like 3-10 people usually get rewards) and they aren't fixed, you get to choose what you want to receive. The only problem in with the PQs in WAR is the fact that they haven't balanced very well for tanks but that, I believe, can be easily fixed.


I like fighting HNMS with people of my selection. I hope that doesn't mean that just anybody can fight along side of you. Accomplishing stuff with my linkshell was very fun and important to me. Also I would rather not fight alongside people I don't like unless I completely have too, like beseiged or campaign. Then lastly the balance issue, which I agree could be fixed to a degree. I don't think they can make it where every single job can contribute absolutely equally though.

Edited, Nov 26th 2009 6:11pm by HocusP



Edited, Nov 26th 2009 6:26pm by HocusP
#4 Nov 26 2009 at 8:52 PM Rating: Good
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Warhammer did SO many things wrong. But, I have to agree, the public quests were an excellent idea.
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#5 Nov 26 2009 at 9:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Hey Caia xD you might remember me from Pandy.
I started out there for 6 long years before moving to fenrir.
i see you deleted him :P



I did play warhammer online and and age of conan and they both did some pretty good things i wish FFXIV would pick up.I cant remember what (guess they wasnt that good xD) but i think the Dev team said they learned some things from wow/conan.

The Public quest thing wasn't a bad idea but you have to think SE's fan base is alot larger than warhammers. If they post times or let people know when and what is popping there will be 10x more people. i mean 50-75 people split between a few linkshells 100+ on King days. i couldnt imagine going to pop areas and see'ing hundreds of people camping lol 250+ ppl can you imagine.

Competition is definitaly there but you know more people will show up when they know for a fact when and where things will show up.

**** the 21-24 hour + Extreme botters of the kings is what to me kept alot of people from camping. which is true in a sense. No one really knew the exact time of pops and if they did there were discouraged becuase hardcore botters were there.

I just trying to figure out if people want the times changed in general to compete more instead of once a day? or is it the actual content they want more of requiring asking for reduced time.
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#6 Nov 26 2009 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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NM hunters may love the "rush" of camping, but it's pretty much what made botting and other forms of cheating viable, too. Limited pops paired with limited ability to fight said mobs is pretty much the source of discontent, the quality of loot also being important, but killing and getting nothing is usually more satisfactory (0/X horror stories aside) than standing around for hours and not even getting a chance to kill.

Honestly, if a developer is too worried about a powerful item becoming too common, then they need to ask themselves one of two questions: 1) Should this item actually be in the game? 2) If added, is the mob/event appropriately challenging for the reward; meaning neither too easy nor too hard.

NMs can stay. NMs are fine. NMs being stupidly predictable on their pop patterns or spawn areas isn't so much so. People may bemoan instancing as it can threaten niche statuses with a more "fair game" approach to content, but they're a very vocal minority in the grand scheme.
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#7 Nov 26 2009 at 11:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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How about no HNMs at all? As previously mentioned, NMs are ok, they can stay with some changes. They need to be much more random, and something that when you bump into one out in the wild, you're surprised by it.

LOTRO has a really interesting way of handling a few of their NMs that I find very interesting and fun. There are certain areas in the game that have weather effects like snow falling continuously. In these areas, the snow can randomly turn into a blizzard/whiteout, making it harder to see the area around you. This event triggers a chance for certain NMs to pop, but you have to find them, as they never pop in the same place. It's a lot of fun, and adds an element of randomness that is welcome and different from the usual routine. If you're a Hunter, you get a natural advantage in that you can scan for the creatures, much like a BST.

Itemization is also an issue, in that if there is an item that drops only from a certain NM or HNM, that's the only way you can get it. That's not necessarily the most ideal situation. LOTRO also solves this problem by having their NMs drop rare crafting items that can be found in other ways as well, but the rarity of the items is still such that it does not affect the economy negatively.

HNMs encourage competition between linkshells, which can be good in some situations, but mostly bad IMHO. It encourages botting, immature behavior, and for the people who are driven to achieve everything in a game, it forces them to give up large amounts of time away from RL to have a chance of claiming. I wouldn't be sad to see HNMs go, and hopefully Squenix has learned a lesson after observing behavior in FFXI and in other games.
#8 Nov 27 2009 at 2:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I can't comprehend, based on what has been experianced in FFXI, why one would create any content at all with high value that is susceptible to being botted.. Unless you're actively trying to put cheaters in control yet again.

Take concepts from other games, including some that worked better in XI, and do your best to render the people that are willing to cheat unable to gain those advantages over those who play the game legitimately.
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#9 Nov 27 2009 at 5:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm sure that changing the (H)NM system of FFXI to something else, or eliminating it entirely, will certainly eliminate cheating and botting.
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#10 Nov 27 2009 at 5:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I play a video game to fight a dragon, or a gigantic monster. Not stand some where for 3 hours just to watch some one who was a fraction of a second faster than me get to do so while I leave feeling disappointed. Jumping off a building with no parachute is probably a great rush too, it doesn't mean the effects outweigh the outcome though.

Here's what I think. If something takes more than one person to kill, it needs a different system than something you can solo. When you're off solo, you're on your own time and can do as you please. It allows you to be a bit more hardcore about what you do and push yourself to the limit. When there's more than one person though, you have to take other things into account. Like the fact that not everyone is going to get something and that a lot of people are helping out of the goodness of their heart. Yes, you scratch my back I'll scratch yours works, but if that's the case, drops on NM's/HNM's that require more than one person should be a 100% drop. Because helping some one camp something that does have a 100% drop for a night, doesn't really equate to helping some one for 2 weeks camp something over and over till you both give up without getting the drop. It's a outdated and imbalanced system.

Things need to be more "Certain" in one way or another when you are using more than one persons time. It's hard to keep everyone's mind set on the same page for so long. Ideally, in a good group, it can be done, yes. But in reality, and most commonly, it causes a lot of problems and problems is something we don't want.

As I said, anything that takes more than one person to kill, should either be a 100% drop, or should be instanced/force popped. I wouldn't actually mind if things were open world and you had to claim them. As long as once you finally got it, and proved your worth and killed it, you actually got what you were going after and your hard work paid off. It would keep things more balanced as well as keeping track of who's done what for who and how much.

Also, long repop timers don't bother me, what bothers me is windows... Windows that can last from 3-16 hours. That is just stupid and frustrating. You can make a window 10 minutes to a hour or so, and it will still be plenty exciting without wasting yours, and other people's time.

Edited, Nov 27th 2009 3:59am by EndlessJourney
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#11 Nov 27 2009 at 6:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm personally hoping for more forced spawn NMs, similar to the ZNM system introduced in FFXI not to long ago. Players can do quests to earn points, which can then be spent on pop sets to spawn the NMs.

I know some people love camping, but the ZNM system certainly appeals more to average Joes like me, whose free time is limited by work and family obligations.
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#12 Nov 27 2009 at 8:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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I agree with the above. The ZNM system was a lot better than the 21-24 hour spawn system. Rewards were good, challenge was there, and competition was non-existent. You don't see tons of people running around with the higher tier pieces, maybe because people would rather sit around for 21-24 hours... but it still makes things more rare/hard enough to get.

I'm not saying that ZNM was not without its faults (I think the picture taking thing was a little much... I would rather not have to use a failed system to do a new system.
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#13 Nov 27 2009 at 8:41 AM Rating: Default
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How bout a system where, the more times you kill said monster( Say fafnir) the drap rates increase a little for each kill. say like 1 or 2 percent each time you kill him until it reaches a cap of some sort. now with this you could still get Ridil the very first time you kill said monster, this only increases the chances of getting the rarer items.
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#14 Nov 27 2009 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
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If the choice was between more spawns and better rates, then more spawns would be the better choice because it makes it harder for one group to monopolize the pop, this shouldn't be the choice though. I'd much rather see 1) "popped" HNM, 2) no long windows 3) reasonable/increasing drop rates, and 4) drop "worth" related to difficulty of fight, not difficulty of claim. I'm not a big fan of bizarre/super random pop conditions either, people play the game to fight ****, let them fight **** without all the **** hoops ~_~;
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#15 Nov 27 2009 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Do it BCNM/KSNM style, but make the fight much harder, so people are reward for the difficulty of the game instead of who got the better claim bot.

Everyone will get even chance at it, just you need the skilled players to actually down it.
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#16 Nov 27 2009 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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Blazed, I remember you. Pandy represent, etc.

Anyway.

Instanced fights, one fight per real life day, 18 people enter. Drops not guaranteed.

Also have HNM pops for those who like to do it that way. Just make them pop anywhere in the zone, not at a certain time in a certain area...
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#17 Nov 27 2009 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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hmm maybe a rare (ex) items that drop randomly and are turned in for a rare leve? or just the occasional rare leve..
#18 Nov 28 2009 at 8:14 PM Rating: Decent
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2 hour spawns should be the most, but IMO there should be no spawn times. Instance onry preez. At least instance the MAJORITY of things so everyone has a shot, not just those with the biggest groups and most time to camp something FOREVER. PLEASE.
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#19 Nov 28 2009 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Instanced or spawned mobs. I liked XI a lot more once they started adding NM spawn items. When they changed Thief's Knife and stuff, for example. It could be relaxing. Especially if you had ways to make it profitable.


Edit for typos. ******* laptop keyboard.

Edited, Nov 28th 2009 9:45pm by Zackary
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#20 Nov 29 2009 at 2:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree with everyone else. I'm hopeful SE has learned that bots control endgame HNM's in FFXI and that instances are the way to go in XIV. ZNM was a major step in the right direction.

Edited, Nov 29th 2009 4:04am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#21 Nov 29 2009 at 5:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Instances and forced spawns with upped difficulty, along with higher drop rates. It was possible to do things like Dynamis for a year religiously and never get the thing you wanted. That is beyond ridiculous.
#22 Nov 29 2009 at 5:29 AM Rating: Default
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Instances and forced spawns with upped difficulty, along with higher drop rates


It's not as simple as this... >_>
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#23 Nov 29 2009 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
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No, I wrote that right after waking up. That wasn't the entirety of my desired solution. I was essentially agreeing with the people who had said the same thing. I don't think anybody believes it's that simple.
#24 Nov 29 2009 at 7:47 AM Rating: Default
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I mean, that the solution you mentioned is flawed. It's not going to work in reality.
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#25 Nov 29 2009 at 7:57 AM Rating: Decent
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You're saying that instances and forced spawns with upped difficulty, along with higher drop rates, can't be part of the solution?

In which case, I'm going to have to disagree.
#26 Nov 29 2009 at 8:01 AM Rating: Default
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Yes.

Well, I'll agree that instances and forced spawns can be part of the solution. Upped difficulty and higher drop rates however, can't be.
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#27 Nov 29 2009 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Maybe not upped difficulty. FFXI had just about the right amount of difficulty.

By higher drop rates, I don't mean across the board. I mean in relation to the sort of situation I mentioned.

This would be so much easier if I were more explicit. I can't post again after waking up ever.

Edited, Nov 29th 2009 8:08am by Keitre
#28 Nov 29 2009 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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All the endgame systems used currently in MMO's have their fallbacks. Upping dynamis drop rates, for example, isn't a solution, it's an alternative with it's own bad sides. The problem you described is the downside of the system used in XI, but it wouldn't really be any worse than any other system if implemented correctly.

But by simply upping drop rates and in turn increasing the difficulty would bring more (unseen) problems and we'd be back at square one in no time.

Edited, Nov 29th 2009 5:16pm by Hyanmen
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#29 Nov 29 2009 at 8:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes. I am being silly.

I have this horrible feeling that whatever SE comes up with, it isn't going to be anywhere near optimal.
#30 Nov 29 2009 at 8:50 AM Rating: Decent
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I've tried to think of what could be 'optimal' for ages, and I've come to the conclusion that as the endgame systems are right now an optimal system can't be implemented.

Something revolutionary needs to be invented for that to happen, so I hope the devs have more imagination than I do.. but I wouldn't blame it on SE if the system isn't going to be optimal, it's like chasing for utopia at this point.
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#31 Nov 29 2009 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah. Someone would have to take a stab at something entirely new if it were to happen. SE obviously doesn't mind breaking from the pack, so maybe we'll get lucky.
#32 Nov 29 2009 at 5:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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The idea of "higher difficulty" content has proven to be a great asset in Warcraft so far.

Honestly it really is the "please everyone" solution. Setting apart hardcore players from casual players, whilst still appealing to both is very, very desirable. I'd like it very much.
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#33Hyanmen, Posted: Nov 29 2009 at 5:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It might work in Warcraft, but XIV will most likely use a whole another system in which it wouldn't fit well.
#34 Nov 29 2009 at 8:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think Zackery was referring to the system that allows you to choose between several different difficulty levels of the same instance. You can choose before you enter what level of difficulty you would like to attempt, with greater difficulties resulting in better loot, higher drop rates, or more drops. This fits well with any kind of instanced content, from long sprawling dungeons to single boss battles. This also tends to result in content that is rewarding for casual players, and challenging for hardcore players*, without isolating either of these play-styles from experiencing the content.

Differing loot tables might be a difficult thing to translate to XIV, because we're going from an environment where armor is nominally important to an environment where your weapon is so important it changes your class. But I can't imagine why manipulating drop rates or the number of drops wouldn't be worthwhile.

Only caveat I can think of is that it requires a healthy embrace of rare/ex to keep the market from reaching a flooding point. But I like rare/ex for a whole lot of other reasons, so I'm having a hard time seeing the downside?



(*Well, in theory anyway. Blizzard has a nasty habit of nerfing the harder content soon after it's released. But that's a fault of the company, not the system they've set in place.)

Edited, Nov 29th 2009 9:07pm by Zemzelette
#35 Nov 29 2009 at 9:45 PM Rating: Good
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Zemzelette wrote:
I think Zackery was referring to the system that allows you to choose between several different difficulty levels of the same instance. You can choose before you enter what level of difficulty you would like to attempt, with greater difficulties resulting in better loot, higher drop rates, or more drops. This fits well with any kind of instanced content, from long sprawling dungeons to single boss battles. This also tends to result in content that is rewarding for casual players, and challenging for hardcore players*, without isolating either of these play-styles from experiencing the content.

Differing loot tables might be a difficult thing to translate to XIV, because we're going from an environment where armor is nominally important to an environment where your weapon is so important it changes your class. But I can't imagine why manipulating drop rates or the number of drops wouldn't be worthwhile.

Only caveat I can think of is that it requires a healthy embrace of rare/ex to keep the market from reaching a flooding point. But I like rare/ex for a whole lot of other reasons, so I'm having a hard time seeing the downside?



(*Well, in theory anyway. Blizzard has a nasty habit of nerfing the harder content soon after it's released. But that's a fault of the company, not the system they've set in place.)

Edited, Nov 29th 2009 9:07pm by Zemzelette
It could be effective even in non-instanced places too.

I'll use Thief's Knife spawn as a semi-example. Say for instance you were farming tonberry for the Thief's Knife lantern drop. If you so choose, you could go to Den of Rancor, where mobs are a tad harder, and farm for another similar spawn item that could be on a smaller drop %. In exchange for this, you get a slightly (And I mean very slight, like 1 or 2 stat difference.) better version of the item that would have dropped from the original mob.


It offers people who are perfectionists with a challenge that will consume more of their time, but still offer them the satisfaction of a job well done at the end, while not leaving people who don't have that kind of time completely out of the loop. It would also help a lot with congestion in these farming areas if there is more than one place to do it.



And you can't say that it wouldn't work in XIV just because it worked in Warcraft, because believe it or not, just because the system is different doesn't mean that the actual goals of the game (To appeal to the three demographics of gamers. Hardcore, casual, and the achiever.) don't matter.
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#36 Nov 30 2009 at 7:33 AM Rating: Default
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And you can't say that it wouldn't work in XIV just because it worked in Warcraft, because believe it or not, just because the system is different doesn't mean that the actual goals of the game (To appeal to the three demographics of gamers. Hardcore, casual, and the achiever.) don't matter.


The demographics don't matter, if the system doesn't support that kind of solution.

XI had the system where old content doesn't get replaced, which in turn means that the items you can get from those events don't really get replaced anytime soon, if ever.

What does this mean? The upped difficulty for higher drop rates might work at the start, but sooner or later players get better at the event and "hard" is not really "hard" at all. At that point a huge problem arises: items that equal the best available gear in the game are easier to get than the gear obtainable from the newer event that is still "hard" for the players. And while scaling the difficulty so that it counters the upped drop rates makes the event balanced at start, few years later as the players get better it's no longer balanced, and the drop rates are too high.

And if drop rates are too high, it means a disaster for a system like in XI, where nothing really gets replaced and the stuff you get stays good no matter how long you play. When the drop rates are too high, players finish the content too fast, and since new events don't really offer any substantial difference to the existing gears, players would get bored and leave instead of working for those new equipment as well as the old ones.

It works in warcraft because it really doesn't matter if the content is easy after a while, since new set of better equip will be released in a while anyway. In XI this would mean a disaster.

And this assuming that XIV will use the same system found in XI, and I think that's more likely than using the one found in Warcraft. It'd be silly to change anyway; SE has more experience from creating the system of XI, so they can better avoid the mistakes they made in XI.
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#37 Nov 30 2009 at 11:21 PM Rating: Default
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HNM's are teh ***. Respawns and windows that are retarded for a very low percentage drop rate..... Not to mention *** *** botters yay! Nah, get rid of em.
I loved ZNM, the pictures were kinda dumb... but I liked it anyways. BCNM/KSNM's were great, challenging and alot of fun.
I loved Limbus was alot of fun as well.
Einharjar.... eh I didn't like it too much. Wasn't enough time imo, but I've only done it a few times so I'm not an expert.
Absolutely loved Nyzul Isle, although I think the floors should get progressively harder.... The random floors did tend to ***** people who haven't done Nyzul yet, or didn't have an ideal group with good enough gear. Dynamis was..... well idk if I wanna get into this or not... Just about every single Dynamis LS I was ever in seemed to be created to solely help out the leaders first and foremost with "everything" they wanted. Then after that if there was anything left they didn't want they would chuck it down the lowely members.
Salvage was pretty fun, only did it once because I could never get groups together for assault missions >.>
I liked how they sorta fixed Sky... They did help it alot by making the mobs force popped, the idea behind Despot claim was pretty interesting. But ultimately I would rather see it made into an instance. Gear would be easier to get all around with less dissapointment because you'd be able to fight the mobs your after more often.

Ok, I went off topic a little but I just thought I'd like to point out all the interesting ways to get gear in the game besides HNM's that SE did right or wrong however you look at it. :P
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#38 Dec 01 2009 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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And you can't say that it wouldn't work in XIV just because it worked in Warcraft, because believe it or not, just because the system is different doesn't mean that the actual goals of the game (To appeal to the three demographics of gamers. Hardcore, casual, and the achiever.) don't matter.


The demographics don't matter, if the system doesn't support that kind of solution.

XI had the system where old content doesn't get replaced, which in turn means that the items you can get from those events don't really get replaced anytime soon, if ever.

What does this mean? The upped difficulty for higher drop rates might work at the start, but sooner or later players get better at the event and "hard" is not really "hard" at all. At that point a huge problem arises: items that equal the best available gear in the game are easier to get than the gear obtainable from the newer event that is still "hard" for the players. And while scaling the difficulty so that it counters the upped drop rates makes the event balanced at start, few years later as the players get better it's no longer balanced, and the drop rates are too high.

And if drop rates are too high, it means a disaster for a system like in XI, where nothing really gets replaced and the stuff you get stays good no matter how long you play. When the drop rates are too high, players finish the content too fast, and since new events don't really offer any substantial difference to the existing gears, players would get bored and leave instead of working for those new equipment as well as the old ones.

It works in warcraft because it really doesn't matter if the content is easy after a while, since new set of better equip will be released in a while anyway. In XI this would mean a disaster.

And this assuming that XIV will use the same system found in XI, and I think that's more likely than using the one found in Warcraft. It'd be silly to change anyway; SE has more experience from creating the system of XI, so they can better avoid the mistakes they made in XI.
I disagree, I don't think it's unrealistic to believe it would be any different than the current situation in FFXI practically speaking. For example: sky is dramatically easier than it was originally due to increased/better gear, but things like Byakko's are still the best availible, while new content offers side grades, situational pieces, and occasionally small upgrades.
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#39 Dec 02 2009 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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As someone who camped most of the time in FFXI, I really rather not see longer HNM spawns in FFXIV. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having a few world bosses that you can kill and get cool special titles or something, but in reality the only system I see really working is an instanced system as it solves over congestion problems that plagued FFXI.

I really like the idea of the tiered instance system, it "adds" content without actually adding content and gives players new challenges quickly. I know WoW did it (called heroics), but it's a good idea. Things like soloable instances would be nice too, but I do still want to have some open world combat, and in that open world NMs could appear, but only a few of them should really have drops that are better than the ones you'll get in instances of similar level.

Force spawns are fine, but you really can't call them NMs. I guess if the item required to spawn them never drops they could be psudo NMs. I'm all for rare and expensive items, but because the item has a low drop rate, not because the mob spawns once every day.
#40 Dec 03 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seems like the trouble FFXI had was that so many of these items were sellable, leading to camping for profit, botting, blah blah blah...

There are a couple of aspects of NMs that are really great, which ought to be kept, but separated; primarily being:
1. The hunting of rare beasts.
2. Equipment with unique qualities that outperforms end-game gear.
3. Fame.

I personally love hunting down a rare anything, but having to wait hours for it only to find some camper with rapid detection and claim is more trouble than it's worth. They could change this to a random respawn over a large window (ex. 1 to 8 hours from last kill), or to something more skill-based, where you have to bring a lure, look for the tracks, set a trap, etc. I think the latter could be a lot of fun, but having a mixture of ways for NMs to be found makes it even moreso. Then it's really a hunt, and not a timed button-mash.

As far as end-game equipment, it shouldn't drop from these, particularly when it's sellable. These items should be changed to a self/party-only item, drop from instanced bosses, or from special leves. This can be especially enjoyable if it requires some special action that translates story-wise, such as throwing a tarnished sword into the mouth of a malboro, killing it, and reclaiming the newly made sword with added poison power. Having the items should be some indication of accomplishment, and not that you potentially spent $1000 on game money.

Then, there's the fame aspect. This works just fine with NMs, as long as the aforementioned drops are removed. Monster hunting is then reduced from camping to actual hunting, and the monsters can drop vanity items (a special hat that doesn't offer significant stats), some sort of bestiary mark (why doesn't FFXI have a bestiary, hm?), or a trophy to display in your house. Things which are evidence that you put in the effort, and show to other people what you've done.

Really, as long as they move the uber-essential items to a more appropriate venue, there's so much they can do with NMs, and it'll bring the fun back in.
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#41 Dec 03 2009 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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As someone mentioned before the idea of these long re-spawn monsters seems good but in practice doesn't work out as well as you would hope, the system seems like it was intended for you to randomly run across an (H)NM not camp it for hours at a time. The process of claiming ends up twitchy and favors people who don't play fairly. I think a good solution would be force pop'd monsters, replace rarity with difficulty for example. Instead of the NM being hard to find and easy(ish) to kill, make it easy to find and hard to kill as a means of controlling access to good loot.
#42 Dec 03 2009 at 2:25 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I disagree, I don't think it's unrealistic to believe it would be any different than the current situation in FFXI practically speaking. For example: sky is dramatically easier than it was originally due to increased/better gear, but things like Byakko's are still the best availible, while new content offers side grades, situational pieces, and occasionally small upgrades.


If all drops were available like Byakko's are, the system wouldn't last. The system can manage the existence of few items like that, but make the whole system similar and it won't work.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2009 11:28pm by Hyanmen
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#43 Dec 03 2009 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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i personally hated the time waits and camping for hnm's, though i loved fighting them and acually getting some drops. i personally don't think i'd go fully into endgame with this one as i did the last if it will be in this manner. i refuse to stand around doing nothing all day for 5-30min battles. and when i say all day playing 8-16hours a day just to kill or hope to kill 1-4mobs is just crappy. they need a new system that will implement the whoooo hoooo of getting drops, without the standing around. and yes i know pvp won't be playing a role in it in this ffxiv i would like to mention off/on it that it would of been great to have to battle for the hnm's in some form or another. outside pvp, i'd say pop items, or the guildleves them selves give you a quest for these mobs for occomplishing many many different and difficult tasks, that are mixed solo and group needed perhaps. that will be time orientedly equivelent but we are always playing the game not sitting around with our thumbs in the keister. no implementing of anything that will give rmt and there on the clock minds the better chance of claiming/finding/or killing it. also would like to see the idea that fighting these types of mobs are recorded by record by se itself in the sense of how many you fought and how much you put into the fight and the rare ex items chances of going to these people highers as one mentioned, kinda like the warhammer pq's, i liked those but in that game they weren't really nessasary cause simply other gear was better usually. i keep this in thought cause as someone mentioned many guilds are crooked, and others just break and you would have to join a new one and start over witch made even taking long breaks and comming back near imposible aswell without feeling like you started over. k i think i went all over the place with that one. really hope se does this one right.
#44 Dec 03 2009 at 11:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm on the "Abolish timed mob system" side.

If there's some battle system XIV would pick from XI, I would suggest they could take these available battle systems:
- Assaults and Ein
There's direct point accumulation from NPC in game from doing certain tasks. So there's no this 20-30 peopls doing the work for 1-2 hours while in the end only 1-4 people get awarded with the items they want. And the group will need to redo the same thing all over again. Not to mention if it's a rare drop.

- Salvage minus the abyssmal drop rate on certain pieces
Salvage is one of the events that need great coordination and dexterity of the participants from all members

- Limbus with instanced zone
Probably the best event all around. You can do each zone relatively fast with relatively small number of people and it's guaranteed you can try the bosses after completing 1 cycle of whole zone.
#45 Dec 04 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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HADESweeble wrote:
I personally hated the time waits and camping for hnm's, though I loved fighting them and actually getting some drops. I personally don't think I’d go fully into endgame with this one as I did the last if it will be in this manner. I refuse to stand around doing nothing all day for 5-30min battles.

And when I say all day playing 8-16 hours a day just to kill or hope to kill 1-4mobs is just crappy. They need a new system that will implement the whoooo hoooo of getting drops, without the standing around.

And yes I know pvp won't be playing a role in it in this ffxiv I would like to mention off/on it that it would of been great to have to battle for the hnm's in some form or another. Outside pvp, I’d say pop items, or the guildleves them selves give you a quest for these mobs for accomplishing many, many different and difficult tasks, that are mixed solo and group needed perhaps. That will be time oriented equivalent but we are always playing the game not sitting around with our thumbs in the keister. No implementing of anything that will give rmt and there on the clock minds the better chance of claiming/finding/or killing it.

Also would like to see the idea that fighting these types of mobs are recorded by record by se itself in the sense of how many you fought and how much you put into the fight and the rare ex items chances of going to these people highers as one mentioned, kinda like the warhammer pq's, I liked those but in that game they weren't really necessary cause simply other gear was better usually. I keep this in thought cause as someone mentioned many guilds are crooked, and others just break and you would have to join a new one and start over witch made even taking long breaks and coming back near impossible as well without feeling like you started over.

K I think I went all over the place with that one. Really hope se does this one right.


There, now I can actually read the points you've made (and some of them were pretty good).
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#46 Dec 04 2009 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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I disagree, I don't think it's unrealistic to believe it would be any different than the current situation in FFXI practically speaking. For example: sky is dramatically easier than it was originally due to increased/better gear, but things like Byakko's are still the best availible, while new content offers side grades, situational pieces, and occasionally small upgrades.
If all drops were available like Byakko's are, the system wouldn't last. The system can manage the existence of few items like that, but make the whole system similar and it won't work.
You haven't told me how it's different than FFXI practically speaking (and FFXI works).
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#47 Dec 04 2009 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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What I'm really hoping is something along the lines of this:

Certain quests or prerequisates are met

then you have the ability to pick up a certain leve every like two days. (I'm assuming there is a max number of leves you can pick up in a day, I could be entirely wrong, but this would would not become available until after a certain time, that way everyone could experience it regularly)

get to gether with your your friends who are also able to take up the leve, then proceed to an area to fight an HNM.

In this fasion they could easily make a leve to: give access to an area that lets you do certain events like a limbus leve etc etc since limbus can only be done every 3 days. You'd just get your leve and friends grab the same one.

EDIT: That is, not to say there can't be normal HNM that follow the usual timed pop, I realize some people actually enjoy that, and if lowered timers will help them experience more often, that is fine with me.

Edited, Dec 4th 2009 3:09pm by bleystrife
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#48 Dec 09 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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And you can't say that it wouldn't work in XIV just because it worked in Warcraft, because believe it or not, just because the system is different doesn't mean that the actual goals of the game (To appeal to the three demographics of gamers. Hardcore, casual, and the achiever.) don't matter.


The demographics don't matter, if the system doesn't support that kind of solution.

XI had the system where old content doesn't get replaced, which in turn means that the items you can get from those events don't really get replaced anytime soon, if ever.

What does this mean? The upped difficulty for higher drop rates might work at the start, but sooner or later players get better at the event and "hard" is not really "hard" at all. At that point a huge problem arises: items that equal the best available gear in the game are easier to get than the gear obtainable from the newer event that is still "hard" for the players. And while scaling the difficulty so that it counters the upped drop rates makes the event balanced at start, few years later as the players get better it's no longer balanced, and the drop rates are too high.

And if drop rates are too high, it means a disaster for a system like in XI, where nothing really gets replaced and the stuff you get stays good no matter how long you play. When the drop rates are too high, players finish the content too fast, and since new events don't really offer any substantial difference to the existing gears, players would get bored and leave instead of working for those new equipment as well as the old ones.

It works in warcraft because it really doesn't matter if the content is easy after a while, since new set of better equip will be released in a while anyway. In XI this would mean a disaster.

And this assuming that XIV will use the same system found in XI, and I think that's more likely than using the one found in Warcraft. It'd be silly to change anyway; SE has more experience from creating the system of XI, so they can better avoid the mistakes they made in XI.
Sorry, as I read this, all I can hear is your usual "Waaaaaaah you said Warcraft, DENY DENY DENY." crybaby garbage. Every time it comes up you become militantly defensive in the same manner.
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#49 Dec 09 2009 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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If there are to be timed HNMs, they should satisfy at least a couple of requirements:
1) They shouldn't be competitive to claim.
2) They should have generous drop rates.

This is not as much my personal opinion as it is general psychology. If either of those requirements are not met, it will turn off substantial numbers of players, and generally serve to demotivate people from playing.

I'll spare the analytical details, but basically those two qualities tend to undermine people's intrinsic motivation to play. Some people won't be bothered either way, but most of the people who don't quit HNMs or the game because of those features will still enjoy HNMs less, doing it primarily for the extrinsic rewards.

The other details don't matter to as great an extent, though ideally there is an optimal grade of challenge so that people of both low and high ability will be able to challenge themselves (without getting assraped.)

I've exploited my doctoral program to take it upon myself to learn game psychology. Also, I invented the field of game psychology (not really, but less of a stretch than you would think).
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#50 Dec 09 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I've exploited my doctoral program to take it upon myself to learn game psychology. Also, I invented the field of game psychology (not really, but less of a stretch than you would think).
I should have gotten a minor in psych. Then we could have analytical fisticuffs.

Oh well.
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#51 Dec 09 2009 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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HNMs need to be back in FFXI but the drops shouldn't be too spectacular. Jormugund was about right in terms of level difficulty and bad drops.

Best drops should be instanced / force pop HNMs, but the frequency to spawn it should be low. It would suck if you can fight Nidhogg every single day, they should make it a weekly thing for LSs at most, and some HNMs you can only attempt about once a month, representing the more epic fights.

Drops should be the top level end game items, but only drop one or 2 max per kill, so we don't get stupid overload on top items like WoW.

Mix that in with BCNMs from kindred seals with many many weekly ENMs and you have content people would happily repeat as they await the weekly and monthly HNM battles.

Make it so that players can only fight certain HNMs once a month so they better go with the right LS/Group.
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