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How does the FFXIV community feel about PvP?Follow

#1 Dec 09 2009 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I've been playing around with some PvP recently in WoW. This is my first season in arena and I've only been doing it for a few weeks. That being said, my favorite part of WoW PvP is a well played battleground. I like the "sporty" feel of teams accomplishing goals. This is a very similar concept to RPG genre, so this could be an amazing thing.

FFXI I did one ballista, and I wasn't into it then, but I could see the potential there. I think if PvP could be restricted to non-instanced battlegrounds, I'd be OK with it.

But PvP can ruin a game. See WoW. The devs regret arena themselves. Classes are constantly being shafted in raids (the majority of players) to balance out arena.

I seriously doubt that Square would be that into PvP. My guess is that they will choose to avoid all PvP over risking the balance by having it. I could live with that choice too.

My summary: A little PvP would be OK with me, but not an elaborate culture.

What do others think?
#2 Dec 09 2009 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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I think they should only have a gladiator type PvP system. Just have some sort of arena like in WoW except not so complicated...would be nice if there can be viewers too. No PvP specific gear. No rewards besides perhaps gil and titles.

Just something simple that doesn't distract much from the PvE but still offers something fun and rewarding to do if you don't want to go level or whatever.
#3 Dec 09 2009 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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No thank you.
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#4 Dec 09 2009 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ballista ftw.
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#5 Dec 09 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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Something like Warsong Gulch and Arathi Basin would be perfect, small scale instanced PvP.

If you say no thanks, then don't play it? Shouldn't really affect you.
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#6 Dec 09 2009 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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Competitive gameplay is fine, I'd be more than happy to participate in game modes that pit me against other players. Who says PvP has to be direct combat the same as you do constantly to enemies? But if we're going to resort to that, I'll be fine with it as long as its elements don't cross over into the PvE world.

I'll come right out and say it: WoW's world PvP sucks. Controlled PvP events such as Battlegrounds and Arena are fine, and BGs have improved significantly since the removal of twinks, but nothing sucks more than running into someone of the opposite faction five levels lower than you while you're questing, and you find yourself dead before you can even blink because they're a Paladin and you're not.

To those not familiar with WoW, a Paladin can kill you in less than five seconds without trying; just to make sure you don't fight back, they are able to stun you outright with one click until you are dead. If by some miracle you fight back and get them near death, they use their Mulligan ability to stun you, restore themselves back to full health and mana, then kill you before the stun even wears off.

In the context of PvE, Paladins are great. They're able to hold their own in dungeons and raids, really stellar tanking classes with high survivability. Clearly they were not designed with balanced PvP in mind, and it's obvious that most classes weren't. Blizzard constantly tweaks classes for the sake of PvP but can't find the balance between PvP and PvE, so the end result is a system that will never be anything better than shoddy.

I think the above reason is why some people freak out at the idea of PvP in FFXIV (not directed toward anyone in this thread). If Blizzard can't get it right, no one can, right? Really though, we already know FFXIV is going to be 99% PvE, so I don't see how the addition of PvP would be a threat to the integrity of the game, or would undermine or tarnish the rest of what we're assuming will be a beautiful package. I say add some PvP elements to appease a particular demographic, keep it separate from the PvE, and no one will have reason to complain about its inclusion.
#7 Dec 09 2009 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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I'm open to the idea of PVP in the game, but probably not on a large scale implementation. I don't see SE implementing anything more than that anyway.

It's just not what I go to Final Fantasy for. When I PVP, I tend to like it to be more hardcore, a-la EVE Online. Since something like that doesn't really fit FFXIV, I'd rather they just keep it minimal. Go big or go home, y'know?
#8 Dec 09 2009 at 6:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
To those not familiar with WoW, a Paladin can kill you in less than five seconds without trying; just to make sure you don't fight back, they are able to stun you outright with one click until you are dead. If by some miracle you fight back and get them near death, they use their Mulligan ability to stun you, restore themselves back to full health and mana, then kill you before the stun even wears off.


I've been a silent troller for a while, but had to step in and say something to this. Clearly you have NEVER played a pally or understand how the paladin class works. Having played a pally for the past year, though with limited experience in pvp as I don't like open world pvp - mostly due to the fact that it's either groups of people or someone waiting until you've a bunch of mobs on you before attacking - I can tell you it's rarely been that easy to faceroll someone unless they were a) really bad at their class or b) newly 80 and still in questing greens.

Regardless, I won't go on about this, as this is FFXIV and not the WoW qq forums. However, the above poster does make a valid point - some classes are clearly stronger than others (though most classes have a strong hard counter, even the paladin) and with more survivability tools available to them. Blizzard has spent a stupid amount of time trying to balance the classes between PvP and PvE and when a tweak is made to one environment, it screws over the other almost every time. I imagine in FFXIV, as the focus will be PvE, it will be very difficult indeed to provide a fair environment for players to PvP AND provide a balance between classes so that each has a fighting chance in a one on one scenario.

What little Ballista (and that other failed PvP game that I cannot remember the name) I played when I played FFXI was fun between friends, but it was never engaging enough to want to play the actual matches. The idea of BG type idea is interesting, but with more interactivity than say an AB (take resource nodes and protect them) or WSG (capture the flag). I PvP'd in WoW for a while, but always found myself wanting more to do than either attack or defend choke points.

The thing that makes PvP in WoW work is that there are opposing factions. In a world supposedly teetering on the brink of war and with a lot of mistrust, SE could go that route, but I'd rather see a complete PvE world than have them spend resources on the the same half-assed attempts at PvP SE tried with XI.
#9 Dec 09 2009 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow PVP is a joke. I'm not at all a fan of the watered down instanced nonsense that is wow pvp . For PVP I prefer the model of world pvp games like EVE were the battles actually mean something. With that said I feel PVP should also be consitent with the Game world and don't really think that Open worlds PVP would fit well with a FF game. I'd prefer the focus on the PVE in FFXIV and leave the PVP to games that are devoted to it. Trying to shoehorn pvp into games just to please some players leads to the kind of garbage pvp found in WOW.
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#10 Dec 09 2009 at 6:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Arena PvP would be great. I wish they had put that in FFXI and honestly they still can, they have a spot in Whitegate for it. While Ballista and Brenner are fun, I would like the option for straight PvP battles, not here's a minigame that you can kill in but you don't really need to. You don't like the PvP just don't go to the arena, simple as that. Aye no PvP specific gear and no Major Pvp onry rewards. Small prizes like consumables (foods, potions and whatnots) would be more than fine.
#11 Dec 09 2009 at 7:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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mezlabor wrote:
Wow PVP is a joke. I'm not at all a fan of the watered down instanced nonsense that is wow pvp . For PVP I prefer the model of world pvp games like EVE were the battles actually mean something. With that said I feel PVP should also be consitent with the Game world and don't really think that Open worlds PVP would fit well with a FF game. I'd prefer the focus on the PVE in FFXIV and leave the PVP to games that are devoted to it. Trying to shoehorn pvp into games just to please some players leads to the kind of garbage pvp found in WOW.


World PVP is generally for nubs who know they'll be exposed in real competition where gear and comps are generally even, letting skill decide.

World PVP is a joke in any game, it's enjoyable for some but allows weak players with good gear to delude themselves into thinking they are good.

Most FFXIers have no idea how complicated PVP gets in WoW. I present you guys Orangemarmalade of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy8UZR72o9c
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#12 Dec 09 2009 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
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dalm wrote:
Quote:
To those not familiar with WoW, a Paladin can kill you in less than five seconds without trying; just to make sure you don't fight back, they are able to stun you outright with one click until you are dead. If by some miracle you fight back and get them near death, they use their Mulligan ability to stun you, restore themselves back to full health and mana, then kill you before the stun even wears off.


I've been a silent troller for a while, but had to step in and say something to this. Clearly you have NEVER played a pally or understand how the paladin class works. Having played a pally for the past year, though with limited experience in pvp as I don't like open world pvp - mostly due to the fact that it's either groups of people or someone waiting until you've a bunch of mobs on you before attacking - I can tell you it's rarely been that easy to faceroll someone unless they were a) really bad at their class or b) newly 80 and still in questing greens.

Regardless, I won't go on about this, as this is FFXIV and not the WoW qq forums. However, the above poster does make a valid point - some classes are clearly stronger than others (though most classes have a strong hard counter, even the paladin) and with more survivability tools available to them. Blizzard has spent a stupid amount of time trying to balance the classes between PvP and PvE and when a tweak is made to one environment, it screws over the other almost every time. I imagine in FFXIV, as the focus will be PvE, it will be very difficult indeed to provide a fair environment for players to PvP AND provide a balance between classes so that each has a fighting chance in a one on one scenario.

What little Ballista (and that other failed PvP game that I cannot remember the name) I played when I played FFXI was fun between friends, but it was never engaging enough to want to play the actual matches. The idea of BG type idea is interesting, but with more interactivity than say an AB (take resource nodes and protect them) or WSG (capture the flag). I PvP'd in WoW for a while, but always found myself wanting more to do than either attack or defend choke points.

The thing that makes PvP in WoW work is that there are opposing factions. In a world supposedly teetering on the brink of war and with a lot of mistrust, SE could go that route, but I'd rather see a complete PvE world than have them spend resources on the the same half-assed attempts at PvP SE tried with XI.


ret pally is by far the most ezmode of any class. You can faceroll 90% of the players. If you couldn't, then you were doing soemthing wrong.
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#13 Dec 09 2009 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
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That doesn't work in eve. If you suck at pvp it doesn't matter how good your ship and fittings are you will lose to a real pvper. I've played wow and in arena or in battlegrounds if your outgeared you lose. But I hear they added new brackets based on gear? I dont know I quit WOW along time ago.
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#14 Dec 09 2009 at 7:48 PM Rating: Good
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odinpingpong wrote:
If you say no thanks, then don't play it? Shouldn't really affect you.
Yeah, sure. That would be great if not for the fact that it will cause class balance to become a huge clusterfuck of crybaby whining. When one side (the PVE players) are not happy, classes get messed with which generally ends up hurting the PVP players. Once the PVP players cry and complain long enough, they mess with something else, which gets the PVE players all riled up again. It's a never ending cycle, and if you want a game to have a primary focus, you really do not have room for this balancing act.

Perhaps I'm bitter because my Paladin in WoW has been changed SO MANY FREAKING TIMES because of dumb PVP BS (that I have no interest in whatsoever) that I eventually just stopped playing it as what was once fun and relaxing had become tedious and annoying.




This has been discussed many times before, however. Here is a thread where this is discussed pretty thoroughly.

Edit: mislink.

Edited, Dec 9th 2009 8:52pm by Zackary
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#15 Dec 09 2009 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
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odinpingpong wrote:
mezlabor wrote:
Wow PVP is a joke. I'm not at all a fan of the watered down instanced nonsense that is wow pvp . For PVP I prefer the model of world pvp games like EVE were the battles actually mean something. With that said I feel PVP should also be consitent with the Game world and don't really think that Open worlds PVP would fit well with a FF game. I'd prefer the focus on the PVE in FFXIV and leave the PVP to games that are devoted to it. Trying to shoehorn pvp into games just to please some players leads to the kind of garbage pvp found in WOW.


World PVP is generally for nubs who know they'll be exposed in real competition where gear and comps are generally even, letting skill decide.

World PVP is a joke in any game, it's enjoyable for some but allows weak players with good gear to delude themselves into thinking they are good.

Most FFXIers have no idea how complicated PVP gets in WoW. I present you guys Orangemarmalade of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy8UZR72o9c


That's an interesting stance. Personally though, I totally disagree. Ever play EVE? It's a good counterpoint to what you're asserting. Skill, numbers, and matchups decide outcomes in EVE, in that order. There's a counter to everything you can field in the game. It's a far cry from gear deciding the outcomes, and it offers parity to a group that's willing to prepare properly.
#16 Dec 09 2009 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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No thanks, I played arena to an intermediate level in s3 s4 ( 1700s )
and all arena ever did was become more of a crap hole every season with people humping the fotm combos with the least counters harder every season
The fact that new teams are so far behind in gear and put at an even furth disadvantage also sucks.Then the worst thing of all is it constantly screws up pve balance. I really came to despise wow pvp eventually.
I hope to god ff14 has nothing that is even close to a resemblance of wows arena
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#17 Dec 09 2009 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
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Eske wrote:
That's an interesting stance. Personally though, I totally disagree. Ever play EVE? It's a good counterpoint to what you're asserting. Skill, numbers, and matchups decide outcomes in EVE, in that order. There's a counter to everything you can field in the game. It's a far cry from gear deciding the outcomes, and it offers parity to a group that's willing to prepare properly.


I'm going to have to disagree with your disagreement. Primarily because EVE is such a unique game I don't think you can really compare it to other MMOs but also because the person you responded to was really talking about ganking, though he didn't mention it. Ganking, if anything, is much worse in EVE than in any other game. There's always going to be someone out there that can take you down fairly easily unless you travel around in a group.

Skill doesn't really come into play because you are almost always either avoiding a stronger player or attacking a weaker player. I would say the order of importance is more numbers, matchup, skills.
#18 Dec 09 2009 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
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i'd like to say i'm for the pvp, granted it shouldn't be world pvp in ffxiv but would like to see some form of really dedicated pvp to it. what better way for endgame gear and the hard work of collecting the best of the best weapons come into play. would love even more for i've yet to see any game that does this macro changes for gear and weapons in battle(lol, dont say runescap), (even ballista gave the penalty for gear change witch i found the downfall of it, specially during the time where we only had few macro lines to use not the 20books of space they gave after). played ffxi for 5years basically since it came out and would like to imagine if a fun endgame pvp was implemented in the game i probably would not have left even then. not saying it needs to be warhammer but defenently something great. in my opinion the campaign battles they added in expansion3 could of easily been a pvp area and or pvpe zone. even the mission story to it could of ended basically the same(though i'm stil waiting for the release of the last missions, i will come back for a month to play them out, lol) the 3cities united to fight.

ballista style i would like to say felt to much of a mission to do, usually was done by a few people, shouting for it was anoying or even trying to get members of linkshell to come. if they made it a scenario type it would of probably been full all day and nite. i know i probably would of jumped in every time i felt i had the 15-20mins to play one inbetween the other stuff. lmao, i'm sure it would of been a nono but a quick game between the 30min to hour windows even.

that being said again i really hope they implement some form of pvp to the game at one point like they may but i do hope it is done really well.

Edited, Dec 9th 2009 10:56pm by HADESweeble
#19 Dec 10 2009 at 1:03 AM Rating: Good
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Yogtheterrible wrote:
Eske wrote:
That's an interesting stance. Personally though, I totally disagree. Ever play EVE? It's a good counterpoint to what you're asserting. Skill, numbers, and matchups decide outcomes in EVE, in that order. There's a counter to everything you can field in the game. It's a far cry from gear deciding the outcomes, and it offers parity to a group that's willing to prepare properly.


I'm going to have to disagree with your disagreement. Primarily because EVE is such a unique game I don't think you can really compare it to other MMOs but also because the person you responded to was really talking about ganking, though he didn't mention it. Ganking, if anything, is much worse in EVE than in any other game. There's always going to be someone out there that can take you down fairly easily unless you travel around in a group.

Skill doesn't really come into play because you are almost always either avoiding a stronger player or attacking a weaker player. I would say the order of importance is more numbers, matchup, skills.


That's true on one level, but I was also thinking about the macro scale of conflict in EVE. In EVE, skill isn't just your ability to strategize on the fly in the middle of combat. It's also your ability to pick waypoints, study enemy trends, pick the right corporation, travel with an entourage, etc. etc. 90% of the time that I got ganked in EVE, it was because I got lazy or impatient.

In summary, knowing how to avoid that stronger player, or find and lock down that weaker player, is part of the skill, in my opinion.

I know I'm playing semantics a bit, but I really do think that extra layer of requisite strategy was one of EVE's strong points.
#20 Dec 10 2009 at 2:39 AM Rating: Good
PvP breaks PvE.

Final Fantasy in general is about the PvE. There was nothing particularly revolutionary in the combat systems in any FF title...what sold millions of copies was the incredible story behind virtually every game.

As much as there will certainly be a component of the FFXIV population who would enjoy having a more prominent segment of PvP in FFXIV compared to FFXI, there is also an enormous segment of the population that would not tolerate having their PvE performance smashed into the ground for no other reason than what is going on in the PvP side of things.

SE doesn't have the experience with class balancing for PvP that other MMO developers have. Blizzard has been trying to get it right for just over 5 years now and they're still struggling. I'd rather see SE focus on refining their approach to a PvE game in FFXIV compared to FFXI than see them try to step into the PvP end of things and be way out of their element again.

I expect to see (or at least hear about) some form of PvP in FFXIV at some point in the future (if not at release) but I also expect it to be an extremely small tangent added in for flavor far moreso than any significant component of the game.
#21 Dec 10 2009 at 4:25 AM Rating: Default
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WoW pvp is the worst pvp system I've tryed. Faction system sucks and the characters are always unbalanced. But that does not mean u can't have pvp in a game and stinn enjoy it. If you ever played ff tactics u know there are ways to fight with other players. A clan Vs clan seams the best way of combat, a normal pvp in some kind of arena or battle grownd or a "speed battle" where the 2 clans compeete to see who kills a mob or a pak of mobs faster. It would be like counter strike (or any fps) matchs where 2 clans fight over something. It would be a good way to relax from the pve without compromising it as the objective would be mostly fun. Never played ff xi so I dont know how balist works...
#22 Dec 10 2009 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
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I've been thinking about it, and I read the responses. I'm mostly mezmorized by the possibilities of RPG PvP. But the more I think about it, I think that potential may only be best realized as a game designed specifically for PvP. Probably a game where you get xp for the kills and participating in the events. To me that would be exhilarating. As long as it is a completely different game.

RPGs are inherently gear/stat driven. I think PvP should be no different. I can never get mad at someone with better gear beating me. I can't call it unfair, they got the gear, I didn't, how is that their fault? Would I get mad at someone being level 80 when I'm level 50? If I want an even playing field, then I'll go play an FPS.

PvP just isn't Final Fantasies' bag. I would love a couple of "sports" in there or even a gladiator arena, but those ideas affect a different part of my psyche than RPGs do. I was thinking I would love for these facets to combine, but I 100% certain I do not want to sacrifice what Final Fantasy is or what it has meant to me in the past.

I am sick of WoW because of how cliche and blase it is. It has no soul because it is the jack of all trades, master of none. Final Fantasy is master of the JRPG, and now I'm not sure I want to sacrifice that. My guess is Square Enix feels the same way.

Thinking about it over night, I change my vote to no. I like PvP, but Zackary is right, you can not just simply avoid it, as it will inevitably effect you.
#23 Dec 10 2009 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I think region control should be done in a region specific instanced battleground, much like Wintergrasp if you are a WoW-er. Instead of having the most players with a signet in the area. Let people fight over outpost control or something, but under no circumstances allow pvp to affect the balance of pve.
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#24 Dec 10 2009 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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I hope PVP, if there is any at all, is something like Ballista. That way, I can safely ignore it the way I did Ballista. I'm not interested in it at all, and if it's included, I hope that it's just a bonus feature that has no impact on the main part of the game.
#25 Dec 10 2009 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Am I missing something here? Why can't SE just completely separate PVE and PVP in XIV like they did in XI? SE tweaked jobs a bunch in ballista only and it had no effect on PVE.
#26 Dec 10 2009 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
I don't care about PvP. I've tried Ballista and Brenner, and it didn't really hold my interest. As far as PvP in WoW goes, the highest I've ever leveled a character is mid-30's before I quit, and I never accepted a duel challenge from another player. If someone feels the need to beat me in a video game to feel better about themselves, that's their problem.
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#27 Dec 10 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Default
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FFXIV should just be PvE but a mild amount of PvP would be ok.

If people want PvP I suggest they go out and try Aion since its focused and solid around 40+, below that its for giggles honestly.
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#28 Dec 10 2009 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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I think some instanced PvP, like Ballista, or some Arena Style PvP would be nice. Something to where people can just get it out of their systems. That will be our best bet, and I hope we have it. However, Square Enix has already said they aren't going to have any large scale PvP or open PvP, and I'm glad for that. Too much PvP cheapens a game and the feel of it, especially when it's suppose to be a RPG style game.
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#29 Dec 10 2009 at 3:47 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
PvP breaks PvE.

Final Fantasy in general is about the PvE. There was nothing particularly revolutionary in the combat systems in any FF title...what sold millions of copies was the incredible story behind virtually every game.

As much as there will certainly be a component of the FFXIV population who would enjoy having a more prominent segment of PvP in FFXIV compared to FFXI, there is also an enormous segment of the population that would not tolerate having their PvE performance smashed into the ground for no other reason than what is going on in the PvP side of things.

SE doesn't have the experience with class balancing for PvP that other MMO developers have. Blizzard has been trying to get it right for just over 5 years now and they're still struggling. I'd rather see SE focus on refining their approach to a PvE game in FFXIV compared to FFXI than see them try to step into the PvP end of things and be way out of their element again.

I expect to see (or at least hear about) some form of PvP in FFXIV at some point in the future (if not at release) but I also expect it to be an extremely small tangent added in for flavor far moreso than any significant component of the game.


Everything Aurelius said, I agree with.

As for what PvP will be in FFXIV. They already said that PvP will take the form that Ballista did in FFXI. Now of course it's not going to be the same exact thing as ballista, but they were meaning in the general sense of impact on the game.
#30 Dec 10 2009 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Zackary wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:
If you say no thanks, then don't play it? Shouldn't really affect you.
Yeah, sure. That would be great if not for the fact that it will cause class balance to become a huge clusterfuck of crybaby whining. When one side (the PVE players) are not happy, classes get messed with which generally ends up hurting the PVP players. Once the PVP players cry and complain long enough, they mess with something else, which gets the PVE players all riled up again. It's a never ending cycle, and if you want a game to have a primary focus, you really do not have room for this balancing act.

Perhaps I'm bitter because my Paladin in WoW has been changed SO MANY FREAKING TIMES because of dumb PVP BS (that I have no interest in whatsoever) that I eventually just stopped playing it as what was once fun and relaxing had become tedious and annoying.
*this*

**** PvP
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#31 Dec 10 2009 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Eske wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:
mezlabor wrote:
Wow PVP is a joke. I'm not at all a fan of the watered down instanced nonsense that is wow pvp . For PVP I prefer the model of world pvp games like EVE were the battles actually mean something. With that said I feel PVP should also be consitent with the Game world and don't really think that Open worlds PVP would fit well with a FF game. I'd prefer the focus on the PVE in FFXIV and leave the PVP to games that are devoted to it. Trying to shoehorn pvp into games just to please some players leads to the kind of garbage pvp found in WOW.


World PVP is generally for nubs who know they'll be exposed in real competition where gear and comps are generally even, letting skill decide.

World PVP is a joke in any game, it's enjoyable for some but allows weak players with good gear to delude themselves into thinking they are good.

Most FFXIers have no idea how complicated PVP gets in WoW. I present you guys Orangemarmalade of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy8UZR72o9c


That's an interesting stance. Personally though, I totally disagree. Ever play EVE? It's a good counterpoint to what you're asserting. Skill, numbers, and matchups decide outcomes in EVE, in that order. There's a counter to everything you can field in the game. It's a far cry from gear deciding the outcomes, and it offers parity to a group that's willing to prepare properly.


Skill can determine, but as you said yourself, matchup and numbers decide, and that makes impossible to determine who is actually good, especially if there is a gear differential.

I will take an example from WoW. Back when the level cap was 60, there were a bunch of elite players with great gear who rocked in raids. Guilds were beating Blackwing Layer and getting decked out while other players who failed to get into these elite guilds failed to get good gear. These said players would PVP for lesser gear but would always get rocked in duels by the PVE players.

There was a lot of hot debate on which players were good, all based on these duels or battleground encounters. Top guilds were sitting pretty and bragging. Being condecending to all the 'noobs'.

Finally WoW introduced Arena, and raiding guilds began to fall left and right. People formed smaller groups to battle it out on even ground. These former superstars turned out to be for the most part horrible PVPers and many of them keyboard turners lol. Most people didn't even macro or keybind correctly. It just shows how much better stats can totally distort the course of a battle in PVP, and how horrible world PVP is to compare e-peen.

You have never PVPed competitively in an MMO until you've tried WoW arena, and you can never prove for a fact that you are a better player than another person until you've beat them consistently on even ground.

Anybody who thinks they are good at PVP b/c they can win most of the time in world PVP is deluding themselves.
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#32 Dec 10 2009 at 7:37 PM Rating: Decent
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There's a game called Perfect World International. It's a MMORPG based almost completely around PvP. There are battles called territory wars in which you're guild fights against other guilds over land. If you're guild is attacking and you win, you take control over that section of land and gain special treats from some shops, free teleport once an hour, very large sums of money, and some other small things.

By very large sums of money I mean 10 million per level 3 territory, 20 million per level 2 territory, and 30 million per level 1 territory every single week. Now, a guild strong enough to control some of this land will have the maximum of 200 players so all that money has to be divided between costs of the wars and paying salaries. A guild can have a max of 200 members and at max 80 can go to one war. Meaning you can hold nearly 3 fully staffed wars at once. Yes, people join guilds and fight in wars for the money even if they don't like anyone in the guild. Not everybody of course, but if you want to win wars you join or build a strong guild.

Wars are held every weekend. Guild leaders bid on a section of land their guild wants to attack. If they win the bid their guild will be given a random time that weekend that they attack the enemy guild. During the battle they have 3 hours to attempt to storm the enemies base and destroy the Crystal it houses. Both sides have a crystal. Both sides can build defensive towers at pre-determined locations and seige towers to attack the defensive towers. One war, against an even match enemy, win or lose, can easily cost 60+ million to fund. That means even if you're defending, meaning no chance to gain any land, it can still cost that much if it goes the full 3 hours.

I havn't mentioned the PvE in this game yet becuase there isn't much to it. Players of any class easily over power mobs of equal level, or even a few(10) levels higher than they are. There are instanced dungeons but they're pretty easy as well unless you're doing them at the lowest available level and have never done it before.

Every week, players of the competing factions race to gain as many levels and aquire as many peices of superior equipment for their guild as they can. Just to go to war that weekend. If they gain enough power over the week. Maybye they can defeat that rival guild this week. Maybe. There isn't any exploration, you find out where you're going before you go to save time, no standing around just talking, there isn't time for it. If you're not gaining levels or working on a strategy for the next war you're wasting time and falling behind. For a couple months I even logged more hours online than I did at work.

The point to all this banter is this. This is the effect PvP can have on a game. I could write pages about it's PvP, but it's PvE is barely worth mentioning. There's also a lot of bickering and crying. It's hard to get 200 people to cooperate, let alone like each other. Leading one of these powerhouse guilds is a nightmare.

The games website even ranks you based on level and pvp performance.

All that said. It is the best PvP experiance I've ever had. It's amazing. Completely absorbing. 80 players per side... 160 players in.. one.. battle... It's huge. Massive even. Coordinating 80 people for one battle is one thing. But you can have 3, 4, however many wars at once. If you own 10 peices of land then you can be attacked by 10 guilds. The game randomly generates times for those attacks too. Friday, Saturday, or Sunday evenings if you live in the USA. That means you could be defending 4 territories at once.. hahaha you now have to coordinate 200 people within 1 day becuase bidding ends Thursday and you have 5 wars on Friday, 4 defending and they scheduled you're attack for that time as well, all starting within 2 hours of each other, and each one could last up to 3 hours. Good luck planning that one.

80 vs. 80 wars that actually mean something. If you're defending and you lose. You're guild just lost 10, 20, or 30 million coin a week. That's some major cash. Not to mention losing a free teleport. It's still easy to teleport from place to place after you've been there once but it can get expensive.

If I want PvP I'll go play Perfect World International. ****, it's free to play, free to download, and a great PvP experiance.

But, do I want that in my FF, absolutely not. FF is about cooperation and comaraderie. A united struggle against dark forces unknown. It's much easier to be friends with people when you're not trying to kill them.

I don't want PvP in FFXIV, besides maybe some meaningless sport. Chocobo racing would be awesome. Maybe Chocobo jousting. The rewards should be titles , some peice of worthless "pretty" gear, or something else that has no effect on PvE.





#33 Dec 10 2009 at 11:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pretty much every game I've played where PvP was a main feature, it usually just turned into max levels ganking lowbies at quest hubs. Next problem usually takes form with class imbalances.

If people want friendly competition, then ask for mini-games like Triple Triad, Blitzball, or whatever. Of course, if Chocobo Racing and the like is any indication, without good rewards, nobody will give a ****.
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#34 Dec 10 2009 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
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No open world PVP. Keep it like it is in FFXI but refine it and update it.
#35 Dec 10 2009 at 11:28 PM Rating: Good
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I would like some type of PvP. People really need to quit looking to WoW for game mechanic ideas. There are other MMOs that implement mechanics much better. For example instead of trying to balance classes in PvE and PvP, some games just have altogether separate mechanics for PvE and PvP. You're "backstab" ability might do x amount of damage and debuff against a mob, but against another player it might do less damage. You're stun abilities might be able to lock a mob down, but on a player the duration may be shorter and the player builds immunity to stuns for a short duration. WoW isn't the golden model of what MMO game mechanics should be.
#36 Dec 11 2009 at 12:27 AM Rating: Decent
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You have never PVPed competitively in an MMO until you've tried WoW arena, and you can never prove for a fact that you are a better player than another person until you've beat them consistently on even ground.
I have played Arena and frankly I don't know why you think gear somehow didn't matter because the people with the better season gear win in Arena. There was nothing even about it. The gear differential is just as bad in arena as it was in the battlegrounds before Arena.
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#37 Dec 11 2009 at 12:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I disagree with all of you. I don't want them re-adding crap like Ballista and Brenner. They're interesting but not fun/rewarding enough for anyone to really want to do it. Nobody does Ballista, and nobody ever did Brenner... at least on my server.

I've never played WoW so I don't know how they did it, but IMO SE should add a PvP arena type area and/or 1v1 duels or no PvP content at all.

Sure, add some obscure minigames but don't try and make that the game's main PvP content, or make them depedant on large groups for it to be fun like Ballista... because for most people there isn't enough of an interest. If there was something in FFXI like Ballista that I could just do with a single friend and have it still be fun and exciting that would have been awesome.

Edited, Dec 11th 2009 1:42am by Poubelle
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#38 Dec 11 2009 at 1:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd like optional PVP, preferably with a bifurcated character configuration for PVP/PVE.

Concerns about PVP balance affecting PVE balance and vice versa are valid, but unnecessary. As long as PVP and PVE are not integrated features, there's no reason that classes have to be identical in both contexts. i.e., a Paladin in PVP does not have to be 100% the same as a Paladin in PVE. PVP can have exclusive balance changes.

It's a simple fix that we don't have because game designers are dumb. There's no reason why PVP and PVE can't peacefully coexist within the same game.
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#39 Dec 11 2009 at 1:19 AM Rating: Decent
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I would like some type of PvP. People really need to quit looking to WoW for game mechanic ideas. There are other MMOs that implement mechanics much better. For example instead of trying to balance classes in PvE and PvP, some games just have altogether separate mechanics for PvE and PvP. You're "backstab" ability might do x amount of damage and debuff against a mob, but against another player it might do less damage. You're stun abilities might be able to lock a mob down, but on a player the duration may be shorter and the player builds immunity to stuns for a short duration. WoW isn't the golden model of what MMO game mechanics should be.


exactly! lol why can't the best pve game ever get a great pvp that can go with it.
#40 Dec 11 2009 at 2:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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A little PvP might not be bad. Something akin to Ballista, or maybe even a coliseum/arena.

But in no way, shape, or form, is it to affect PvE. Period. Can't tell you how many nerfs I dealt with in WoW thanks to that BS.
#41 Dec 11 2009 at 5:33 AM Rating: Good
I thought Ballista was a great solution to PVP. It was fun IMO, and a nice break from the normal xp grind. It was also nice when there wasn't much to do.
I do think that SE would need to restructure how Ballista works if they want it to be a successful part of the game.
#42 Dec 11 2009 at 5:38 AM Rating: Good
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odinpingpong wrote:
Eske wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:
mezlabor wrote:
Wow PVP is a joke. I'm not at all a fan of the watered down instanced nonsense that is wow pvp . For PVP I prefer the model of world pvp games like EVE were the battles actually mean something. With that said I feel PVP should also be consitent with the Game world and don't really think that Open worlds PVP would fit well with a FF game. I'd prefer the focus on the PVE in FFXIV and leave the PVP to games that are devoted to it. Trying to shoehorn pvp into games just to please some players leads to the kind of garbage pvp found in WOW.


World PVP is generally for nubs who know they'll be exposed in real competition where gear and comps are generally even, letting skill decide.

World PVP is a joke in any game, it's enjoyable for some but allows weak players with good gear to delude themselves into thinking they are good.

Most FFXIers have no idea how complicated PVP gets in WoW. I present you guys Orangemarmalade of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy8UZR72o9c


That's an interesting stance. Personally though, I totally disagree. Ever play EVE? It's a good counterpoint to what you're asserting. Skill, numbers, and matchups decide outcomes in EVE, in that order. There's a counter to everything you can field in the game. It's a far cry from gear deciding the outcomes, and it offers parity to a group that's willing to prepare properly.


Skill can determine, but as you said yourself, matchup and numbers decide, and that makes impossible to determine who is actually good, especially if there is a gear differential.

I will take an example from WoW. Back when the level cap was 60, there were a bunch of elite players with great gear who rocked in raids. Guilds were beating Blackwing Layer and getting decked out while other players who failed to get into these elite guilds failed to get good gear. These said players would PVP for lesser gear but would always get rocked in duels by the PVE players.

There was a lot of hot debate on which players were good, all based on these duels or battleground encounters. Top guilds were sitting pretty and bragging. Being condecending to all the 'noobs'.

Finally WoW introduced Arena, and raiding guilds began to fall left and right. People formed smaller groups to battle it out on even ground. These former superstars turned out to be for the most part horrible PVPers and many of them keyboard turners lol. Most people didn't even macro or keybind correctly. It just shows how much better stats can totally distort the course of a battle in PVP, and how horrible world PVP is to compare e-peen.

You have never PVPed competitively in an MMO until you've tried WoW arena, and you can never prove for a fact that you are a better player than another person until you've beat them consistently on even ground.

Anybody who thinks they are good at PVP b/c they can win most of the time in world PVP is deluding themselves.
Sorry, but you're an idiot. I have played competitive arena since season 2. Gladiator in 4 and (lol) 5.

I'm going to respectfully ask you to please cease posting. I ignored your tirade about Paladins because I figured you were trolling, but you aren't making anyone laugh, and your points are so outright dumb that nobody could mistake you for anything but.
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#43 Dec 11 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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QuI thought Ballista was a great solution to PVP. It was fun IMO, and a nice break from the normal xp grind. It was also nice when there wasn't much to do.


Agreed 100%. I know it has been said over and over now, but my greatest fear with one-on-one PvP arenas is, that ultimately, the PvP-lovers accidentially playing a support class that does not shine in PvP will whine long enough for SE to finally water down the differences between Jobs (or classes or whatever) so that everybody has an "equal chance". Personally, I prefer a game where the mages need to be protected, and the knights need to be healed.

And I guess Balista was SEs attempt to realize right that: PvP (group vs group) in a game where not every Job/Class/Race feels exactly the same minus the fluffy bells & whistles.
#44 Dec 11 2009 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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Agreed 100%. I know it has been said over and over now, but my greatest fear with one-on-one PvP arenas is, that ultimately, the PvP-lovers accidentially playing a support class that does not shine in PvP will whine long enough for SE to finally water down the differences between Jobs (or classes or whatever) so that everybody has an "equal chance". Personally, I prefer a game where the mages need to be protected, and the knights need to be healed.

And I guess Balista was SEs attempt to realize right that: PvP (group vs group) in a game where not every Job/Class/Race feels exactly the same minus the fluffy bells & whistles.


Well said, and I agree perfectly. Especially on the part about mages needing to be protected and knights healed.

I don't want all the classes to be the same, and I don't want weapons/abilities to have 2 sets of stats on them, 1 for PVE and 1 for PVP. If SE intends (I believe they have already dismissed full PVP) have full PVP I hope they make it a separate server.
#45 Dec 11 2009 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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dalm wrote:
Quote:
To those not familiar with WoW, a Paladin can kill you in less than five seconds without trying; just to make sure you don't fight back, they are able to stun you outright with one click until you are dead. If by some miracle you fight back and get them near death, they use their Mulligan ability to stun you, restore themselves back to full health and mana, then kill you before the stun even wears off.


I've been a silent troller for a while, but had to step in and say something to this. Clearly you have NEVER played a pally or understand how the paladin class works. Having played a pally for the past year, though with limited experience in pvp as I don't like open world pvp - mostly due to the fact that it's either groups of people or someone waiting until you've a bunch of mobs on you before attacking - I can tell you it's rarely been that easy to faceroll someone unless they were a) really bad at their class or b) newly 80 and still in questing greens.


In my defense, I did mean the entire 79 levels before 80, and that Heroic-grinding part of 80 before you are raid-capable. In other words, most of the game. So yes, if you are sitting at endgame completely maxed out, you do stand a fair chance. There are plenty more examples of imbalance that have mostly been pointed out in this thread already, so I'm not just picking on the Paladins.

Regardless, you completely missed my point that WoW's pre-endgame world PvP is terrible, and people should not discredit the idea of any PvP at all in FFXIV just based on a part of WoW's system. I'm not going out of my way to bash WoW, it's just that so many people seem to have this knee-jerk reaction to the idea of PvP in FFXIV based solely on "Tarren Mill is under attack!"
#46 Dec 11 2009 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Zackary wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:
Eske wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:
mezlabor wrote:
Wow PVP is a joke. I'm not at all a fan of the watered down instanced nonsense that is wow pvp . For PVP I prefer the model of world pvp games like EVE were the battles actually mean something. With that said I feel PVP should also be consitent with the Game world and don't really think that Open worlds PVP would fit well with a FF game. I'd prefer the focus on the PVE in FFXIV and leave the PVP to games that are devoted to it. Trying to shoehorn pvp into games just to please some players leads to the kind of garbage pvp found in WOW.


World PVP is generally for nubs who know they'll be exposed in real competition where gear and comps are generally even, letting skill decide.

World PVP is a joke in any game, it's enjoyable for some but allows weak players with good gear to delude themselves into thinking they are good.

Most FFXIers have no idea how complicated PVP gets in WoW. I present you guys Orangemarmalade of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy8UZR72o9c


That's an interesting stance. Personally though, I totally disagree. Ever play EVE? It's a good counterpoint to what you're asserting. Skill, numbers, and matchups decide outcomes in EVE, in that order. There's a counter to everything you can field in the game. It's a far cry from gear deciding the outcomes, and it offers parity to a group that's willing to prepare properly.


Skill can determine, but as you said yourself, matchup and numbers decide, and that makes impossible to determine who is actually good, especially if there is a gear differential.

I will take an example from WoW. Back when the level cap was 60, there were a bunch of elite players with great gear who rocked in raids. Guilds were beating Blackwing Layer and getting decked out while other players who failed to get into these elite guilds failed to get good gear. These said players would PVP for lesser gear but would always get rocked in duels by the PVE players.

There was a lot of hot debate on which players were good, all based on these duels or battleground encounters. Top guilds were sitting pretty and bragging. Being condecending to all the 'noobs'.

Finally WoW introduced Arena, and raiding guilds began to fall left and right. People formed smaller groups to battle it out on even ground. These former superstars turned out to be for the most part horrible PVPers and many of them keyboard turners lol. Most people didn't even macro or keybind correctly. It just shows how much better stats can totally distort the course of a battle in PVP, and how horrible world PVP is to compare e-peen.

You have never PVPed competitively in an MMO until you've tried WoW arena, and you can never prove for a fact that you are a better player than another person until you've beat them consistently on even ground.

Anybody who thinks they are good at PVP b/c they can win most of the time in world PVP is deluding themselves.
Sorry, but you're an idiot. I have played competitive arena since season 2. Gladiator in 4 and (lol) 5.

I'm going to respectfully ask you to please cease posting. I ignored your tirade about Paladins because I figured you were trolling, but you aren't making anyone laugh, and your points are so outright dumb that nobody could mistake you for anything but.


Getting a paladin glad in S5 you should know well that it was an ezmode class, don't say otherwise and face embarrassing yourself.

I do like how you phrase your responses though, you seem like you are confident and know what you are talking about. Unfortunately, you don't, but I'm going to give you a chance to explain why world pvp is legit, lol

Edited, Dec 11th 2009 12:33pm by odinpingpong
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#47 Dec 11 2009 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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Getting a paladin glad in S5 you should know well that it was an ezmode class, don't say otherwise and face embarrassing yourself.


If you're referring to Ret Paladins, while appearing to be easymode/faceroll, they were actually pretty underrepresented in the higher arena brackets.

They have no gap closer(ala Intercept/Death Grip). They do have HoJ/Repentence, either of which will be dispelled ASAP if your team is worth its pixels. With no healing debuff/short CD interrupt, they find killing equally geared healers a pain. The trick to playing Ret skillfully is timing your burst with that of your teammates. That's about all they're good for.

Luckily for me, I play a hunter, who has both a healing debuff AND an interrupt. :D

Now if you're referring to Holy, that's a whole other discussion.

Edited, Dec 11th 2009 1:20pm by Jubs
#48 Dec 11 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Jubs wrote:
Quote:
Getting a paladin glad in S5 you should know well that it was an ezmode class, don't say otherwise and face embarrassing yourself.


If you're referring to Ret Paladins, while appearing to be easymode/faceroll, they were actually pretty underrepresented in the higher arena brackets.

They have no gap closer(ala Intercept/Death Grip). They do have HoJ/Repentence, either of which will be dispelled ASAP if your team is worth its pixels. With no healing debuff/short CD interrupt, they find killing equally geared healers a pain. The trick to playing Ret skillfully is timing your burst with that of your teammates. That's about all they're good for.

Luckily for me, I play a hunter, who has both a healing debuff AND an interrupt. :D

Now if you're referring to Holy, that's a whole other discussion.

Edited, Dec 11th 2009 1:20pm by Jubs


I was referring to ret pally as ezmode in terms of how to play and how much damage they do in a reply earlier to dalm. I wasn't even referring to arena actually, just being able to take someone down in 5 seconds with 2 different keybinds happens all the time in BG play.

In Arena, yes, it's all about the holys for 2s, but for 3v3 ret pally is very easy to play as you don't keybind much and all you do is apply constant pressure while the other dps+healer controls the CC in the fight, like hunter for example.

Edited, Dec 11th 2009 2:22pm by odinpingpong
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#49 Dec 11 2009 at 8:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I think if any type of PVP would be added it would follow that of Warhammer Online with some minor adjustments. Depending on what territories you control in Warhammer you get certain bonuses for your side that are global. Sort of like the Kupopowers we have. However that would obviously add some sort of unfairness against those who do not participate in PVP and are PvE. I think the most important part is that everyone gets an equal chance to participate in a match. Whether you're a new player that's level 1 and want to roll up to defend a territory or a maxed out character.

The matches should level cap the level 1 player and the 75 player to be even in stats. Now equipment would be another thing however if both were capped at say 50 cap in let's say Ballista style; each player's equipment would relatively be about the same rounded up or down; the 75 would have a slight advantage depending on what their gear gives. Perhaps this would be unfair to the level 1 but not really. The level 1 hasn't achieved level 75 like the other guy. The other guy being able to use his 75 gear scaled down is fair to him since he earned it. I like PvP but I agree that it shouldn't affect PvE. I think those that participate in PvP optionally should be rewarded.

Whether it be through unique items, buffs depending on what region you helped dominate or control, etc. PvP can coexist along PvE quite nicely. Warhammer is the best example that I have seen of this however their Tier 1 and chickening system etc is really retarded. I know they added some kind of you can now level up or down kind of like level sync but it's not the same so that game still lacks PvP potential when it comes to population of PvPing in all tiers. It'll get there eventually.

Personally, for PvP I play Battlefield series on PC (2142, etc) or I will turn on my PS3 and play some Call of Duty or some Bad Company. Or even Killzone. If FFXI had Warhemmer's PvP with some minor adjustments it would be win/win for each side. Their Public Quests are fun too. Regardless,I still love FFXI and even if FFXIV doesn't have a great PvP concept; it will be my home all through the next 8 years of college. I welcome it with open arms.
#50 Dec 11 2009 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Getting a paladin glad in S5 you should know well that it was an ezmode class, don't say otherwise and face embarrassing yourself.

I do like how you phrase your responses though, you seem like you are confident and know what you are talking about. Unfortunately, you don't, but I'm going to give you a chance to explain why world pvp is legit, lol

I didn't play a Paladin. We played PMR, which still sh*t on most of your DK/Ret/Holy teams.

I didn't play 2s or 5s back then, but I suppose if I did play 2s I would have actually given a crap about ret paladins.

Edit: Typos.

Edited, Dec 11th 2009 9:44pm by Zackary
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Thank god I stopped playing MMOs.
#51 Dec 11 2009 at 11:41 PM Rating: Good
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343 posts
I'm torn on PvP, because I suck at it honestly.

PvP is a nice addition to any game if done right.

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First off, open world vs. zone restricted/player toggle/instanced pvp.

Everyone has their own preferences and the arguments will continue till the end of mmo's.

Open world- Everyone has to learn to like PvP or leave the game. "I like the excitement of never knowing what's coming." "I hate being ganked by a group of higher level players corpse camping for hours on end." etc. so many arguments out there.

Zone restricted- Everyone on the server is not forced into pvp. This allows more varity in gamer styles to play the game. PvPers can still get off killing each other when ever they want by hanging out in the pvp zones. PvEers can continue questing and what not without being harassed.

How games handled this issue.
WoW- added PvE servers with instanced pvp, player optional open world pvp by toggle command. Seems to be working for WoW as they have dominated the market of mmos. Although this causes major problems with class balance as they are always trying to keep pvp and pve players happy and playable in both settings.

LoTRO- Added PvMP (player verses monster player). Basically a single zone where you can take your main character in to and do battle against other players that have created a monster character to pvp with. This worked well as far as keeping LoTRO lore intact. Good guys of middle earth battling orc/spider/warg monsters of evil. Although they still have issues with class balance, but not to the extent of WoW.

Darkfall- "Sandbox" game where its open world pvp with full loot of the fallen. Awesome idea to some. But there is no race/alliance restrictions. A dwarf starting out in a dwarf town can be killed by another dwarf 30 seconds after you get in game. This game has been out since march and only has 2 servers (EU and NA). From rumors I been hearing it is becoming a ghost town. The casual players, PvE, and crafters, have been dropping and players left are mostly the "hardcore" that can enjoy doing nothing but killing the same people over and over day after day. I loved the game design, play style, and all, but I dropped after a couple months of getting ganked outside of city walls by people I was standing next to at the vault in town only 5 mins prior. Hard to enjoy the game when all you can do is keep defending against attackers every 2 minutes-- not much time to do anything else.

Summary
Unless the game designers are trying to make a niche game, pvp should be restricted so that the game is enjoyable by all flavors of gamers. Yes there is a % of hardcore pvp gamers and a % of hardcore pve gamers, but there is a much larger % of population that is found in the middle of spectrum.

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How to implement it into the game?
Because so far FF lore hasn't been big on allainced races war, we will have to assume that pvp will have to allow any player race against any other player race instead of something like Lalafell/Miqo'te vs. Hyur/Roegadyn.

So the options are.

1) Arena system- Players form static teams and fight against other teams. Solo vs solo matches would be cool also. Could work like planktron arena with players instead of pets.

2) PvP Zones- Battle fields used for nation vs nation matches. (depending on linkshell/guild system) possibly linkshell vs linkshell. Possibly all accessible zone where its free-for-all.

3) Open world by player option- Allow pvp anywhere if players have enabled themselves as pvp status.

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How to fix balance issue of adjusting classes for pve and pvp?

1) Don't do anything- If someone wants to use a healer against a tank they should know what they may be getting them selves into.

2) Have separate skills/spells/gear- If class x has a stun move given to them to balance pvp, that stun should only work on player targets when engaged in pvp battles. A mage have a spell that can do 1000 damage to a mob, and players only have 900hp, make that a pve only spell not usable in pvp battle against player targets. Keep pve completely separate from pvp as far as spells/skills/ and possibly gear. That way when trying to balance classes in one setting, it will not effect them at all in the other setting.

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Why add pvp to a game coming from a long line of pve content?

1) Fun- It's one more thing to do in a game if you get bored with anything else and need a break.

2) Settle disputes- People not getting along, let them fight it out in an arena. For those times when /slap emotes just wont cut it.

3) More subscribers- Maybe if done right and has enough pvp events and rewards, it may draw in a few more subscribers from the more pvp oriented play style gamers.

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Why would people bother doing pvp when there is so much else to do in the game?
All depends on how pvp would be implemented.

1) Nation perks- If nation vs. nation, maybe give winning nation a temporary npc vendor with unique items. Similar to conquest in ffxi. Maybe short term stat boosts or bonus, similar to signet.

2) Worthless junk- If housing is part of the game, maybe add trophies as rewards. Maybe win titles.

3) Point system- Maybe make it into a point system with points used for consumables, traits, skills, gear, or anything really.

4) Bragging rights- nuff said.

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Why bother even talking about pvp?

Good point, there's probably only about a 2% on a full moon that SE would add a functional and popular pvp system to their games, although ballista is used occasionally on some servers.

1) SE likes being the black sheep and tends to refuse to do anything that would make sense, because other games have done it. Not much more to do with pvp that other games haven't already done.

2) Doesn't matter what we discuss in here as SE does things their way regardless of others thoughts. So I just wasted all this time because I cant sleep and have nothing else to do at this hour.




Edited, Dec 12th 2009 12:48am by RobbyFaces
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