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How does the FFXIV community feel about PvP?Follow

#52 Dec 12 2009 at 3:35 AM Rating: Good
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I was referring to ret pally as ezmode in terms of how to play and how much damage they do in a reply earlier to dalm. I wasn't even referring to arena actually, just being able to take someone down in 5 seconds with 2 different keybinds happens all the time in BG play.

In Arena, yes, it's all about the holys for 2s, but for 3v3 ret pally is very easy to play as you don't keybind much and all you do is apply constant pressure while the other dps+healer controls the CC in the fight, like hunter for example.


Eh, most classes can 2 shot a guy in greens in a BG. It's not a trait just for rets, but rets have the issue of being a class where they literally have 4 buttons to press, which just happen to be pretty **** good buttons.

Can't really argue the pressure role in 3s. It's about the only niche they're any good at.
#53 Dec 12 2009 at 5:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Why add pvp to a game coming from a long line of pve content?

(...)

2) Settle disputes- People not getting along, let them fight it out in an arena. For those times when /slap emotes just wont cut it.


Like, I kick you in the face and we are friends again?
#54 Dec 12 2009 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
Why add pvp to a game coming from a long line of pve content?

(...)

2) Settle disputes- People not getting along, let them fight it out in an arena. For those times when /slap emotes just wont cut it.


Like, I kick you in the face and we are friends again?



Works with my kids. Smiley: grin

Actually it was meant as more of a funny. I thought the "when /slap emotes just wont cut it" would give that away.
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#55 Dec 12 2009 at 11:43 AM Rating: Default
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1 questions, how did arena ruin WoW? It Made it an e-sport.

Anyways, I hope they add PvP but not like ballista. FFXI's pvp was to laggy and to slow paced, FFXI was made for more PvE just because of how the battle system worked. If they do PvP in XIV I hope they get it right because I loooove me some PvP. I truly hope they add it, but then again I wont hold my breath. I will say one reason I stopped playing FFXI was because Ballista was very subpar
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#56 Dec 12 2009 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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1 questions, how did arena ruin WoW? It Made it an e-sport.


Arena ruined WoW, because 98% of the major class changes/balances since Arena hit the game have been because of Arena.
#57 Dec 12 2009 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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A lot of the changes that the WoW devs had to make to balance PvP, especially arena, broke a number of strong PvE classes because their spells and/or abilities were just simply too powerful against PCs. People getting one/two shots. Like Warlocks Conflagration, which got a nerf last patch for PvP reasons (at least I think it was for this reason), which in turn means that they do less dps in a PvE setting.

And in response to others - I have a ret pally, I don't suck at pvp, but anyone who's even decently geared and knows their class can't be face rolled. Ie. Casters - unless I'm in close and get a stun off right to start, I'm pretty hooped because they all have fear/distance creating moves/stuns of their own. Pally doesn't have (nor should they, I think) a distance closer... so mages, locks, and shadow priests pwn me. (I suppose I could also research more on how to counter them - but I don't really like pvp). Because ret pally has been in the past even MORE of a face-rolling class, they've had to nerf them hard, which in turn made them crap for PvE for a really long time.

Regardless, this just illustrates how complicated balancing a game for PvE AND PvP can be. Objective based, instanced stuff, I'm okay with - balances the playing field a bit or forces you at the very least to work as a team, which is something SE did very well with FFXI. Open world or arena pvp will force SE to spend too much time balancing and get away from what they're good at - involved, deep, engaging storylines.

A question though - a couple people have mentioned "non-instanced" BG type things - how would you do this? Similar to Ballista or Campaign flagging before an event starts? I'd really rather have them instance as much as they can - we've all seen how many problems endgame ended up having because of their long term refusal to suck it up and buy instance servers.

Edited, Dec 12th 2009 2:50pm by dalm
#58 Dec 12 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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dalm wrote:
Regardless, this just illustrates how complicated balancing a game for PvE AND PvP can be. Objective based, instanced stuff, I'm okay with - balances the playing field a bit or forces you at the very least to work as a team, which is something SE did very well with FFXI. Open world or arena pvp will force SE to spend too much time balancing and get away from what they're good at - involved, deep, engaging storylines.
Well, as someone who used to play a lot of Ballista, I'm going to have to disagree. There was always 1 or 2 JP players who would show up as THF/WAR with Striders and other move enhance gear and DESTROY everyone on the field, then get gold ballistar every game because of it, even though they didn't actually play the game correctly. (For scoring purposes.)



A lot of people treat battlegrounds in WoW the same way. I don't care if I win or lose, as long as I end the match with 30+ killing blows and the top damage done.

Edited, Dec 12th 2009 4:15pm by Zackary
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#59 Dec 12 2009 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
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odinpingpong wrote:

Skill can determine, but as you said yourself, matchup and numbers decide, and that makes impossible to determine who is actually good, especially if there is a gear differential.

I will take an example from WoW. Back when the level cap was 60, there were a bunch of elite players with great gear who rocked in raids. Guilds were beating Blackwing Layer and getting decked out while other players who failed to get into these elite guilds failed to get good gear. These said players would PVP for lesser gear but would always get rocked in duels by the PVE players.

There was a lot of hot debate on which players were good, all based on these duels or battleground encounters. Top guilds were sitting pretty and bragging. Being condecending to all the 'noobs'.

Finally WoW introduced Arena, and raiding guilds began to fall left and right. People formed smaller groups to battle it out on even ground. These former superstars turned out to be for the most part horrible PVPers and many of them keyboard turners lol. Most people didn't even macro or keybind correctly. It just shows how much better stats can totally distort the course of a battle in PVP, and how horrible world PVP is to compare e-peen.

You have never PVPed competitively in an MMO until you've tried WoW arena, and you can never prove for a fact that you are a better player than another person until you've beat them consistently on even ground.

Anybody who thinks they are good at PVP b/c they can win most of the time in world PVP is deluding themselves.


Like I mentioned before, I don't think that your stance applies universally to MMORPG's. In EVE, I spent my early noob time in a group called EVE University. We cut our teeth in PVP by chasing around better players in bigger ships, armed with a horde of tiny, cheap ships. We'd get murdered, of course, but if we took down just one of the enemy, it outweighed the total loss of all our cheap ships.

Now, I think that's a totally legitimate strategy, and one of the fun aspects of EVE. I think that world PVP was quite balanced in that regard, so you didn't really have the "guy with elite gear owns everyone else" thing that you're speaking of. There was a counter to every ship, and every strategy. You just had to be prepared.

But I think the real issue is probably that we're coming at this from totally different approaches. For some people, it's about having a quantitative, definitive way of gauging which player or group is better. I'm more interested in "messier" kinds of PVP, perhaps? Somehow, I think it's less important to me to establish who is the consistently better player.
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#60 Dec 13 2009 at 2:04 AM Rating: Default
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Jubs wrote:
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1 questions, how did arena ruin WoW? It Made it an e-sport.


Arena ruined WoW, because 98% of the major class changes/balances since Arena hit the game have been because of Arena.


So what? The game is still good. That is clearly not 'ruining' it.
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#61 Dec 13 2009 at 3:41 AM Rating: Good
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Obviously it isn't PvP that ruins class balance as FFXI never had serious PvP and yet the jobs haven't ever been properly balanced.
#62 Dec 13 2009 at 4:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I think that might perhaps be a difference in FFXI players compared to WoW - I found in general that if a player wasn't very good at whatever job in FFXI, they'd ask their linkshell or a friend etc. on how to do it better. In WoW, they either a) qq about it on forums loudly until enough people side with them and the devs cave or b) reroll to the most recent FotM class.

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Well, as someone who used to play a lot of Ballista, I'm going to have to disagree. There was always 1 or 2 JP players who would show up as THF/WAR with Striders and other move enhance gear and DESTROY everyone on the field, then get gold ballistar every game because of it, even though they didn't actually play the game correctly. (For scoring purposes.)


Hrm... sounds kinda like we're talking about the same thing, but from a different perspective. They never spent that time balancing classes and didn't need to - PvE was and is their focus. I meant more that if they were to implement more detailed PvP or true world PvP, they'd have to do class balancing. But given their history, I don't think SE will listen to players as much as Blizzard seems to. I'll guess we'll just have to wait and see what they do with the classes - how much each "class" is able to solo, what kinds of abilities they're given, etc.

#63 Dec 13 2009 at 6:15 AM Rating: Good
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PvP won't work unless there are waring factions.

WoW PvP is a joke in terms of gameplay and mechanics, however the one thing it did have going for it was split factions. The hatred, the inherit competition created just by picking one side (Horde or Alliance) provided an ideal environment for PvP, or should I say world pvp. It actually worked so well in the begining that many overlooked the limitations and poorly executed PvP system just on the very basis that you were at "War" with other players. You could just show up somewhere despite level and participate in huge server crashing battles.

Early on I actually spent many nights up late protecting some no name area from hordes of... Horde. It was an absolute BLAST. It was when they offered PvP rewards, then Ranks, then the ******* Arena that it fell off. Battlegrounds never replaced the feel of fighting outside at random. They actually eliminated World PvP in place of a Balista like system. Classes started to get nerfed and shaped around the stupid Arena, often effecting the PvE contributions of said classes and leaving 1-2 classes to dominate the entire system (loldruid).

Balista works for FFXI. It turns a relatively uncared for element of the game into an overly regulated event. There in of course lies the problem. When you start to turn PvP into some complicated event that has an actual attendance schedule behind it, you lose any credibility in PvP being something worth your time. What exactly is the purpose of being there other than some iffy 2 mins cutscene that I personally do not remember?

Square Enix does not excel at PvP, just look at what happened to Fantasy Earth. I had some fun in FE, but many of the players were timid and not really used to the idea of PvP. Thus it failed, much of which because of the crap you had to maintain while in the battlefield, it threw in the importance of fortification building over class balance and actual hardcore PvP.

Leave PvP out of FFXIV I say. You either focus the game around it or make it some silly event you have to sign up for. If the game has a PvP backbone then Job abilities and traits get attention based on PvP, if it is not inherently behind the game or even story line, you can just focus on Classes for their PvE contributions. In other words what everyone is looking forward to.


Edited, Dec 13th 2009 6:36am by patient
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#64 Dec 13 2009 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Yogtheterrible wrote:
Obviously it isn't PvP that ruins class balance as FFXI never had serious PvP and yet the jobs haven't ever been properly balanced.
Doesn't help it either, so your point is kind of moot. I think we've all established that no balance has ever been perfect, but we've also deducted that splitting your intentions is no way to achieve this goal, either.
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#65 Dec 13 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't want weapons/abilities to have 2 sets of stats on them, 1 for PVE and 1 for PVP. If SE intends (I believe they have already dismissed full PVP) have full PVP I hope they make it a separate server.


Why on earth not? What conceivable rationale can be offered for not wanting separate balances for PvP and PvE? Other than "just cuz." I am assuming that you're being inclusive to optional and/or limited PvP in this statement. If not, then I think you mean to argue against full PvP, not segregated balances.
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#66 Dec 13 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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So what? The game is still good. That is clearly not 'ruining' it.


Oh I know. I still play it. I personally don't believe that the games been "ruined," I was just answering his question as to how Arena is supposed to have ruined it.

Can't really deny that arena has caused a large majority of class changes, though.
#67 Dec 13 2009 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Jubs wrote:
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So what? The game is still good. That is clearly not 'ruining' it.


Oh I know. I still play it. I personally don't believe that the games been "ruined," I was just answering his question as to how Arena is supposed to have ruined it.

Can't really deny that arena has caused a large majority of class changes, though.
I could just start by saying "Seal of Blood" as being a valid point.
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