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How guildleves will curtail RMTsFollow

#1 Dec 13 2009 at 2:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Disclaimer: Well, after reading the "should HNM times be changed?" thread I was inspired to finally make an account and post some of my own speculation. I chose to start a new thread though because although this ties into NMs it's really more about Guildleves and RMTs. And this is ENTIRELY speculation on my part, but I'd like to see if my theory holds together under ZAM scrutiny. /end

Anyway, here's my thought: No weapon/armor drops off of mobs, just crafting items like skins and meat or maybe some basic equipment from beastmen when it makes sense I.E. shell shields off Quadv. But no Godly Helmet of the Whale from a scorpion, I don't care if he is the King of Vinegar Rooms. (bonus points if you got both references)

Crazy you say? Maybe but hear me out, the NM Malboro that you just lured out with bait (another speculation I'll post on later) will still have a great drop, but instead of dropping a Colonoscopy Knife that would either be 1. Rare/Ex (which has its own limitations), or 2. something RMTs would jack the price up on, it will instead drop 3. a rare ingredient you can use to MAKE (or have a friend make) the Colonoscopy Knife. But not too rare an ingredient or we're back at square 1.

"But Leo, I'm a casual gamer, I don't have time to craft or make friends!" Not to worry my little hentai addict, that's where Guildleves come in. Instead of that BFGreat Axe that you want being dropped off a NM that's harder to find than a girl that [obscene analogy removed by OP's wife] you simply get the weapon as a reward for completing a Guildleve.

So what stops the RMTs from simply doing the leves? I believe the leve system will be structured similar to FF Tactics job system. For the unfamiliar, if you wanted to play as a summoner for instance you had to first reach a certain proficiency with black mage and time mage. In FFXIV I can see a system where if you want to get a leve with a Staff of F*** You Up as a reward, you first have to complete specific combinations of lesser leves in order to unlock the higher tier leves and their respective rewards. Basically if RMTs want the good stuff, they will have to PLAY THROUGH THE GAME the way SE intended. Think about it, how many RMTs did you see that were rank 10? Almost none because they would level grind and go straight for the loot. With the leve system they can grind themselves 'til the Chinese year of the Hot Fudge Sunday and it won't do them any good unless they wade their way through the story just like the rest of us. Either that or they take up crafting which, if it remains as tedious and time consuming as it was in FFXI, should at least slow them down.

Now I'll admit I'm making some big assumptions here, especially that the Guildleves will be used to further main the story/stories and not just side-quests. But I have faith that SE has not only made plans to deal with RMTs differently in FFXIV but has in fact structured the game to make their lives as difficult as possible without causing normal players to rage quit like it's an FPS on XBOX Live.

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#2 Dec 13 2009 at 3:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's rather late and I'm a bit tired so I'm not entirely sure if I fully understood your post (or even read all of it) but I have a concern (as I usually do when someone finds a way to limit RMT activity).

First of all, I agree with the item part, for the most part. I usually don't bother myself with strange things that occur in fantasy games as the game is just that, fantastic. Strange things happen. Animals and beasts dropping armor and weapons is just one of those things that always gets to me though. I would make a few exceptions though...there are some creatures, such as dragons, that have been known (well, fictionally, at least) to amass wealth and horde armors and weapons. Plus, I think if you're attacking a humanoid they should be able to drop armor. I mean, imagine you just killed King Arthur...you better pick up that Excalibur or else you're stupid.

What concerns me is how is anyone supposed to make money in the game? If everything is rare/ex or so difficult to obtain that anyone trying to get it in order to make a profit, not use it, you wont be able to make any money unless it's from quests or crafting. What if someone doesn't like the quests or crafting and just wants to farm their way to riches? It's my opinion that anything in-game that limits RMT also limits the players.

Anything done to limit RMT should be done outside of the game. I'm too tired to say what I think will work best and I don't want to hijack your thread with my ideas.
#3 Dec 13 2009 at 6:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Its a nice thought, but the trouble is that RMT will go through the trouble to get the drops you're talking about. If they have to to leves to get to the point where they can farm "the drop" then that's what they'll do.

Quote:
So what stops the RMTs from simply doing the leves? I believe the leve system will be structured similar to FF Tactics job system


Even if it IS like that (which is a big assumption but still possible), RMT will do whatever they have to to get to the point where the can go to farm mode.

Sadly, if a player can do X, nothing prevents an RMT farmer from doing X 24/7.
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#4 Dec 13 2009 at 9:29 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure this has been out-right confirmed yet. But with so many crafting classes, I don't think that any armors will be Rare/Exclusive. Because I believe armor and weapons could be customizable. In the trailer, it seems as though a tailor has the ability to place emblems or dye your armor. That would not be possible if armor is untradeable or limit to a certain number.

It would kinda suck if your blacksmith can't repair your armor because he has the exact same piece of equipment as you do.


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dragons, that have been known (well, fictionally, at least) to amass wealth and horde armors and weapons.

Quote:
I mean, imagine you just killed King Arthur...you better pick up that Excalibur or else you're stupid.


Good points. But if you fight King Arthur I would imagine that his weapon would take some damage in the beating requiring some maintenance. With a dragon hording armor for a thousand years I would imagine that said armor would not be immediately wearable.
#5 Dec 13 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not sure this has been out-right confirmed yet. But with so many crafting classes, I don't think that any armors will be Rare/Exclusive. Because I believe armor and weapons could be customizable. In the trailer, it seems as though a tailor has the ability to place emblems or dye your armor. That would not be possible if armor is untradeable or limit to a certain number.


Untradeable does not have to mean unrepairable. Even if you can't trade the equipment, you could open up a crafting window where the crafter can do his tricks without taking the equipment away from it's owner.

I think it's a necessary addition, especially if you constantly have to work with crafters to repair your weapons and armor. The risk for crafter to just steal the equipment is too big otherwise.
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#6 Dec 13 2009 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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you read my mind hyanmen as i got down to the end of the post. ya a good way to do is a crafting window where everything you trade is craftable by the crafter then it automatically goes back to the player that traded to the crafter. that would be rare,ex or just normal stuff.

also i do believe rmt will always find away. it may be slow at start cause they would have to do the leves but after that all the i hate rmt sell them there accounts for a few dollars and they will never need to do the work we need to do to earn it.

#7shaani, Posted: Dec 13 2009 at 12:56 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) TBH 1 ez thing stops RMT. BoP
#8 Dec 13 2009 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Love the post. Good ideas all around.

To everyone worried about the RMTs getting up to that leve and just farming from there, who's to say they'll be able to? I recall most quests in FFXI, and nearly all in WoW, to not be repeatable. Who's to say they'll be able to repeat the leves?

I do think that if I spend a good deal of time, and risking my "life" fighting this incredibly huge dragon, that he should drop some form of weaponry/armor. It's not as thrilling if he drops the mats for that sword you want so bad. Then you gotta go through the process of finding someone who can even craft it, if they go that route with the game.
#9 Dec 13 2009 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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Rate up. ^^ Good and well-written speculative post for a newcomer.
Don't stop, keep em coming.
I particularly liked the Colonoscopy Knife and Staff of F*** You Up which leads me to believe that you, too, been drowning your sorrows in WoW while we wait for FFXIV.

It's been my thought that as SE developed FFXIV over the last 4-5 years, they've also put a LOT of effort into figuring out ways to combat RMT since it effectively ruined FFXI for a lot of people. Hope so, anyway.
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#10 Dec 13 2009 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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Did... did he just call me a hentai addict?

I stopped reading at this point, mostly because I've already made up my mind about you.

I like this guy.
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#11 Dec 13 2009 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rate up. ^^ Good and well-written speculative post for a newcomer.
Don't stop, keep em coming.


Wow, thanks. And here I had steeled myself to get rated down for being a nobody.

In response to some earlier comments though, I do realize nothing will ever STOP rmts, I was just trying to inject a little optimism into the forum. Some people are more pessimistic than others and that's to be expected. We all know SE has done some pretty moronic things, but over the past 2 years they have really been trying to give players what they want (Nomad moogles in Selbina, anyone?). MMOs are huge cash cow for companies that can do them right, and anyone who doubts that SE has put a ton of effort into making this cow the purrtiest cow at the fair should seriously reconsider.

... look at me, derailing my own thread. **** noob. Anyone know how to rate yourself down?

Edit: back on topic, what are your anti-RMT ideas/theories?

Edited, Dec 13th 2009 6:08pm by LeodegranceMCIII
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#12 Dec 13 2009 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Fixing the RMT problem is very simple that makes me think that SE is lazy or just dont give a ****. If you play other mmo you will notice that they dont have no RMT problem and here is why.

1)most items are bound to the account, onces you win the items is your and cant be trade or sold to any 1, now there a few items in the game that are able to sell on the AH but not as many.

2) instead of having NM with a time window to pop they make them force pop with items that require some time to get this way it wont be to easy and you arent able to get this items again for a few days so ppl wont be camping them and making it easy, some of this mob can only be kill onces a week.

This system pretty much kick a rmt out of the game but FFXI system instead invites a RMT into the game.
#13 Dec 13 2009 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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Another thing is rarity of items.

Don't have best of best items be so rare that people have to farm for 2 months to buy them. This causes EZ mode gamer to support RMT because they don't want to "waste their time farming when they could be doing events."

I like hard to obtain items, it makes a so much better feeling when you do finally get them. But there is too many EZ mode gamers that will keep RMT in business to get these items.

And if you think this is false, you're fooling yourself. EZ mode gamers are what the RMT live on. As long as people want to buy their way to the top, the RMT will be infesting the game.

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Another option is to publicize names of banned people. This way people will see that friends that have bought from RMT do get banned. I think a lot of people keep thinking they wont get banned, only RMT sellers get banned. Need to make it publicly known everyone gets banned for it.

Edited, Dec 13th 2009 9:25pm by RobbyFaces
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#14 Dec 14 2009 at 1:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Fixing the RMT problem is very simple that makes me think that SE is lazy or just dont give a sh*t. If you play other mmo you will notice that they dont have no RMT problem and here is why.


What other games would these be? Virtually every major MMO released in the last 10 years has had issues with RMT. The only exception I can think of would be Warhammer. And that was mostly because money fell out of the sky.

Quote:
1)most items are bound to the account, onces you win the items is your and cant be trade or sold to any 1, now there a few items in the game that are able to sell on the AH but not as many.


Which RMT would the monopolize and jack up the prices. This solves nothing, and actually makes matter worse because it is very very easy to monopolize a smaller number of items than a larger number.

Quote:
2) instead of having NM with a time window to pop they make them force pop with items that require some time to get this way it wont be to easy and you arent able to get this items again for a few days so ppl wont be camping them and making it easy, some of this mob can only be kill onces a week.


This might help somewhat. But RMT would be there every time the timer is up, get the drop, and sell it.

Quote:
This system pretty much kick a rmt out of the game but FFXI system instead invites a RMT into the game.


No. No, it doesn't. RMT are incredibly adaptive. Most major MMO companies have realized that they can try to control RMT to an extent, but its nearly impossible to both have a living economy AND get rid of RMT.

The only solutions are to 1.) Not have an economy. Or 2.) Allow micro-transactions within the game at so low a cost that RMT won't bother putting the hours into farming anything because the return is too low. Neither of these is agreeable to most players, so MMO companies have to put up with RMT at some level or another.
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#15 Dec 14 2009 at 3:07 AM Rating: Decent
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At this point, SE has 2 routes to take to help put RMT in it's place:

1. Make all NM drops BoP

2. Make all NM spawns use a pop item, that requires specific guild leves to be completed to access. They could even go as far as only letting you do it once.

FFXI's system was heaven for RMT for a while. WoW hasn't had many issues, due to most everything being BoP. They still have gold sellers and what not, but the only really expensive things worth purchasing are epic flying/dual spec, which have no effect on the economy.
#16 Dec 14 2009 at 5:39 AM Rating: Decent
Honestly, the only way to truly get rid of RMT (IMO) is to get rid of in-game currency all together. Work on some sort of barter system. I'm pretty sure that won't happen, so i'm open for other ideas. The op brings up a few interesting ideas.
#17 Dec 14 2009 at 5:40 AM Rating: Good
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I find it interesting that most people would have idea that revolves only on expensive drops. After seeing what happened in FFXI, I would've expected people to know better that RMT works 24/7 and it means that they don't have to rely on big money drops to make money. They can go fishing, mining, crafting, or even NPC-ing cheap items, or heck, kill too weak beastmen for 20G/kill 24/7 for millions of gil if needed to. Not only that, RMT also sells service to kill NMs too. So we aren't dealing just with drops, but also non-drops.

1. Make everything BoP? RMT will offer the service to kill the NM for you.
2. Pre-requisite quests/guildleves? RMT will do those pre-requisites like they did to enter sky/sea in FFXI and pop gods (not many bothered with sea, but we know years ago when RMT controlled sky)
3. Make RMT play through the game as intended? Well they got 24/7 available to them, that won't stop them at all. They could grind quickly to max level and then do all the guildleves needed. RMT can actually make even more money if they bothered going to rank 10 because the nation missions are very easy for level 75s and with today's economy, the money reward is actually quite good.
4. Use pop triggers? Again, RMT have 24/7 available to them, they'll monopolize the triggers that either you buy the trigger from them, buy the service to pop the NM, or camp for weeks in hope of finding a trigger for yourself and able to actually use the trigger too.

The way to combat RMT is to make their service/product uninteresting to the players. Granted that there will be no way to perfectly remove RMT, but there are things that can be done to minimize the RMT presence in the game.

Make things to be more accessible to the legit players, give more options to the legit players to do stuff and obtain items. Making money should also be easier so that players aren't tempted to buy gil (I recently leveled up low level jobs in FFXI and I'm surprised at how little money I earned from soloing). Keep the hard-to-obtain things for the final bosses (of missions) or end-game events (e.g.: Salvage, Nyzul, sky, Limbus, Dynamis, etc) where you aren't relying on RMT. To make RMT even more uninteresting, give more options when it comes to end-game events (e.g.: Salvage gear drops from Einherjar too, while some Nyzul gear drop from ZNM as well but maybe lower/higher droprate because of difficulty, etc) so that people aren't stuck to only one event to get a certain thing.

If NM-system is kept like in FFXI, make sure that mobs that drop good gear for low-mid level are killable by the proper level. It's ridiculous that Jujitsu Gi is a level 40 gear, the NM Poisonhand Gnadgad is level 39-40 but there's zero chance a level 40 MNK or NIN or SAM to be able to beat it. Not everything has to be done with a full party (or being handheld by level 75s), SE. By making things out of reach for low-mid level jobs, it discourage players from camping the NM, and at the same time encourages them to buy the item instead, which can tempt players to buy gil.

In the end, there needs to be a game where the general feeling is "I can do this myself/ourselves so that I/we won't be needing RMT's service". If everything in the game is doable without making the players crazy, then the players would prefer to do things themselves. Players' effort needs to be rewarded. Not everything has to be complicated, SE.


EDIT:
Quote:
Honestly, the only way to truly get rid of RMT (IMO) is to get rid of in-game currency all together. Work on some sort of barter system.

Barter system just won't work. RMT will have Super Armor. PlayerA would pay $50 to RMT. PlayerA bartered/traded Smelly Socks for RMT's Super Armor. No currency involved.

Edited, Dec 14th 2009 6:46am by Vaagan
#18 Dec 14 2009 at 6:23 AM Rating: Decent
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These threads are really pointless, since it's been discussed a BILLION times over. The general consensus is that BoP (Bind on pickup) systems are the single most effective way to fight real money traders.

Ways that guildleve could play into this system:
* Say for instance you want an axe. Let's call it Byakko's Axe for this example. Byakko's Axe has a list of materials that can be farmed via doing a certain set of guildleves and farming the mats that drop off of mobs in said group of leves. (Think along the lines of limbus.) The drops become bound to the person who loots them, however crafting items does not require a person to "trade" an item over to the crafter fully. Instead, you supply the mats via a "crafting window" (Which I am sure this game will have since the emphasis is large on crafting.) and they use the recipe from a spellbook on the group of items. The item, and the mats, remain bound to the original owner the entire time, which eliminates the threat of loot theft, as well as offers a way to prevent real money traders from using the drop system to their advantage.
* Now you'll say "But Zackary that screws the hardcore gamers because they don't have to fight tooth and nail for their loot!" Wrong. Guildleves can be grouped in tiers, the difficulty scaling with the loot tables found in the leve. Additionally, higher level guildleves offer not only better crafting supplies for better items, but special rewards at the end as well.
* And of course you can also have your open-world drops, which no doubt will be infested by RMT out the ***. By making this gear just mid-tier equivalent to equal the mid-tier guildleves, you remove the NEED for these items, and simply leave the market open to those who have lots of money to burn on "nice" things that they don't have to work as hard to get. (Basically skipping or simplifying the grinding part to gearing up a new class/job/whatever.) This market is surprisingly large, especially once the economy gets booming, so it's not completely unrealistic to assume that this is viable.




All of the guildleve stuff can be scaled to any group size, although I personally believe that the higher difficulty ones should perhaps be geared towards a larger group. This system also appeals to just about everybody, and is more than likely the direction SquEnix will take with the guildleve system. At least, if they've learned anything from their competitors, which they have said time and time again that they have.


Edit: To the poster above me, you do not have to do anything to REMOVE real money traders. If their services are not in such high demand because they cockblock your average Joe like they did in XI, they aren't really a problem. They aren't a problem in WoW because there are so many ways to work around dealing with them that they simply can't grief you enough into forcing you to use their services.

The reality is, they're never going to fully go away. The best way to combat them is to make it impossible for them to shove real players out of the way and make their life ****.

As for a moral debate about RMTs killing NMs and guildleves for you and ****, I'm not up for that. I'm simply trying to post solutions that take away their power to harass people.

Edited, Dec 14th 2009 7:32am by Zackary
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#19 Dec 14 2009 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I see a lot of interesting ideas being posted here and it seems like most everyone can at least agree that RMT can't be stopped completely, only slowed. On the flip side of things, how would you feel about SE going after the gil buyers more intensely?

Let's take a real-life example like prostit- no, wait that should be legal, bad example. Umm... ok crack dealers? Yeah let's go with that, most people agree crack should stay illegal. In real life police set up sting operations and will pretend to be crack dealers to catch the buyers. How about if the "special task force" SE created for FFXI started doing more than just investigating and started actively going after players Big-Brother style I.E. monitoring all gil transactions, patriot act type spying on chat logs, and pretending to offer gil and NM hunting services and busting the buyers?

While in real life that certainly doesn't stop people from buying crack, it give them pause, and applying this to gil buying which last time I checked ISN'T an addiction, the effect may be more significant. Especially if they would publicly crucify the people they catch by posting their names, impounding their chocobo and other belongings, and forcing their moogle to pay the funeral costs. I'm told WoW does something similar but I may be thinking of another MMO.

Me personally, I'm naturally suspicious of other people, so if I were the kind of person that would risk my character by buying gil (which I'm not) wondering if the person I'm buying from is an undercover [GM] would probably make me too nervous to go through with it. But that's just me, not everyone plays it safe. Thoughts?

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These threads are really pointless, since it's been discussed a BILLION times over.

Yes these threads are pretty pointless, but it's not like we have much else to do while we wait for new info. Thank you for taking the time to add to the discussion, though. I really liked your point about RMTs in WoW not being as big a problem because they don't get in the way of other players, FFXI would be much more enjoyable if this wasn't the case with NMs/HNMs.

Edited, Dec 14th 2009 3:27pm by LeodegranceMCIII
#20 Dec 14 2009 at 2:58 PM Rating: Default
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Quoted Text
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Fixing the RMT problem is very simple that makes me think that SE is lazy or just dont give a sh*t. If you play other mmo you will notice that they dont have no RMT problem and here is why.


What other games would these be? Virtually every major MMO released in the last 10 years has had issues with RMT. The only exception I can think of would be Warhammer. And that was mostly because money fell out of the sky.


Quote:
1)most items are bound to the account, onces you win the items is your and cant be trade or sold to any 1, now there a few items in the game that are able to sell on the AH but not as many.


Which RMT would the monopolize and jack up the prices. This solves nothing, and actually makes matter worse because it is very very easy to monopolize a smaller number of items than a larger number.


Quote:
2) instead of having NM with a time window to pop they make them force pop with items that require some time to get this way it wont be to easy and you arent able to get this items again for a few days so ppl wont be camping them and making it easy, some of this mob can only be kill onces a week.


This might help somewhat. But RMT would be there every time the timer is up, get the drop, and sell it.


Quote:
This system pretty much kick a rmt out of the game but FFXI system instead invites a RMT into the game.


No. No, it doesn't. RMT are incredibly adaptive. Most major MMO companies have realized that they can try to control RMT to an extent, but its nearly impossible to both have a living economy AND get rid of RMT.

The only solutions are to 1.) Not have an economy. Or 2.) Allow micro-transactions within the game at so low a cost that RMT won't bother putting the hours into farming anything because the return is too low. Neither of these is agreeable to most players, so MMO companies have to put up with RMT at some level or another.


You are completely wrong, Wow of warcraft has this system setup and they have 0 rmt problems
#21 Dec 14 2009 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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These threads are really pointless, since it's been discussed a BILLION times over.


Not true at all. More then half of the changes that SE has done to the game has been posted on threads by player for years until SE adds into the game
here a few examples

1) sumoners used to have 1 blood pact that was only able to use every 1 min where you have to choose frome doing a damage blood pact or buff bloodpact, the sumoner community was posting for years how SE should seperate them into 2 different groups. years later SE did the change

2)Bst use to lose exp by having a pet with them and they need it to release there pet before the mob dies so they wont lose as much exp. BSt community posted for years how that is unfair and they should remove that penalty
years later SE did the change

3)bst wanted to be part of a DD group so they posted on forums how they should be able to control pets ability, guess what years later SE did the change

I could keep goin on how many changes has been done by threads but i am sure you get my point. SE do read them and the more of the same post shows up the higher the chance it will be apply to the game.

so the more threads on how to fix RMT the better

Edited, Dec 14th 2009 4:54pm by Drakent
#22 Dec 14 2009 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
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I see Wow has been mentioned couple times and how RMT are not in control there.

WoW's biggest problem with RMT is the annoying /shout /tell and dead bodies forming messages. I see those tactics of spamming to be desperation to make sales, and here is why.

1) Gold is way to easy to get in WoW. People can get all the gold they need without farming hours on end, so they don't feel the need to spend RL money on something so easy to get.

2) Incredible amounts of gear options for players. And the gear is so easy to get people don't feel as much of a need to spend RL money on something they can get on drop after in a couple raid runs. No saving 40 million for that epic weapon; 10 equally useful alternatives drop if you don't get that top piece you been eyeing.

The Bind on pickup is not what curbs RMT in WoW. They could just as easy sell runs to players to get them. The BoP feature is a little bit anti-rmt, as rmt can't sell items from hardest mode raids right after release. But if you get in with a decent raiding guild you'll be seeing those piece soon enough after you get the hang of the new raids. Hard raids turn into farming runs in a couple weeks for top guilds and within a couple months with decent average guilds.

The biggest WoW reason is the fast and easy drop of multiple gear options and gold that keep RMT at a minimum. People buy gold from rmt to make game play faster and easier for them, can't get much faster and easier than WoW. FFXI is a long long hard game with sadistic like drop rates, RMT had a paradise there for while supplying EZ mode players.



Edited, Dec 14th 2009 6:41pm by RobbyFaces
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#23 Dec 14 2009 at 8:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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While keeping players from exchanging goods is a hefty part of the equation, there's a few other things that help.

One is keeping the Auction House out of the equation.
Not only does this deny the creation of an accepted player standard with which RMTs can set a price point for their headhunting, but it also make it impossible for them to price-fix.

Two, is that the sales must be premeditated and wholly invested in.
I mean this insomuch that RMT can't simply cap the mob each and every time the opportunity is available. They must have a buyer waiting in the wings, or their efforts are for naught. This also means there is no grey area, here. No innocent bystander grabbing something off the AH and unwittingly encouraging a vicious cycle. If you are paying RMT for a drop, you are doing so in full awareness of your actions.

Three is that (mostly) individuals who will use the item will hunt it.
In a non-rare/ex system there are three competitors. The first two are obvious, the person who will use the item and the RMT trying to sell it to them. But there's a third legitimate competitor here, the players who will sell it to buy something else (often participating in RMT's price inflation in yet another case of innocently aiding the enemy). This is the only side-effect of BoP that can be potentially regrettable if the competitive player archetype isn't being satisfied in another way. Regardless, for much the same reason RMT needs premeditated sales, legitimate NM Hunting tends to die out in the face of BoP systems. This tends to ensure the people who serve as demand for the item are largely the people with access to the supply, which drives down the desire for drop-related RMT sales at the source.


Not saying you don't have a point, Robby.
It's just that BoP is so interesting because it has multifaceted implications.


Edited, Dec 14th 2009 10:43pm by Zemzelette
#24 Dec 15 2009 at 12:57 AM Rating: Decent
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You are completely wrong, Wow of warcraft has this system setup and they have 0 rmt problems


Sure. If you consider the constant tells, shouts, and other spam not an issue, you're right. The fact that you can google "World of Warcraft Gold Sale" and get 829,000 hits clearly means that RMt are a non-factor in WoW. And let's not forget that Blizzard has recently extended their calling hours to deal with "escalated hacks over the past few months." Guess who's doing the hacking? RMT looking to take your account and sell it.

Yeah, World of Warcraft has no RMT problems whatsoever. And I have a bridge near Ironforge that I can sell you.

/facepalm


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Zaela Rdm -- 35, Alchemy 45 -- Forced into retirement because I didn't have the right kind of credit card. Hope it was worth 18 bucks a month, SE.

#25 Dec 15 2009 at 1:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Caia wrote:
Quote:
You are completely wrong, Wow of warcraft has this system setup and they have 0 rmt problems


Sure. If you consider the constant tells, shouts, and other spam not an issue, you're right. The fact that you can google "World of Warcraft Gold Sale" and get 829,000 hits clearly means that RMt are a non-factor in WoW. And let's not forget that Blizzard has recently extended their calling hours to deal with "escalated hacks over the past few months." Guess who's doing the hacking? RMT looking to take your account and sell it.

Yeah, World of Warcraft has no RMT problems whatsoever. And I have a bridge near Ironforge that I can sell you.

/facepalm
This has been curved a lot by authenticators. To almost a non-issue.


To those arguing "we don't have anything else to discuss while we wait" why not use one of the other threads? There is one that isn't even on page 2 yet.
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#26 Dec 15 2009 at 2:14 AM Rating: Decent
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This has been curved a lot by authenticators. To almost a non-issue.


I think you meant curbed, yes? I'll give you more credit than the last guy for being mostly informed. :)

Authenticators for a long time, completely prevented RMT from compromising your account. However, there are now ways around the authenticators. They been used to get many many accounts. The Flash exploit from July (or early August) cost many people their accounts, even if they had authenticators.
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Also... Hunter 62, Rogue 52, Warrior 66, Warlock 43, Death Knight 70, Shaman Who Cares? ;)

FFXI -- Caia -- Retired/Deleted -- Blm 75, Alchemy 97
Pandimonium server - Rank 10 - Bastok

Zaela Rdm -- 35, Alchemy 45 -- Forced into retirement because I didn't have the right kind of credit card. Hope it was worth 18 bucks a month, SE.

#27 Dec 15 2009 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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RMT will never go from an MMO as long as that MMO is popular, there is money to make and as the farmers will earn around $20 a month (if they are lucky!) then there are not exactly many over-heads.

RMT go for small profits over large scale, having 1 account earning 1k an hour sucks for a normal player, having 100 accounts earning 1k an hour, 24/7 brings in 2.4 million, and as the RMT will be using bots, 1 person can be controlling the 100 accounts.

Bind on pickup, we already have that in FFXI, its called EX, unless you are suggesting all weapons/armour are BoP? Crafters would love that, they make the items which then get sold and can't be resold, so there is a constant market for crafters (which RMT would flood), non-crafters on the other hand would have to farm, farm and farm some more to earn the gil to buy the item which once they buy, has no value at all left. BoP would stifle an economy, yes there should be EX items, but if I kill X mob and get Y drop, I'd want to be able to sell that Y drop to buy Z stuff that *I* need, otherwise we get into the situation where I have to kill set mobs for set gear, or farm farm and farm some more (or, heres the killer... buy gil!) to get the stuff I need.

There is no easy solution for RMT, yes you could make earning gil as easy as logging in "congratulation, you've logged in, have 1m gil!" which would only devalue items and so push up the price of everything, 100m for an earth crystal, go team!

You could make all "desired" items EX when dropped from NM's, but FFXI already does that for some stuff, doing it for all NM dropped gear would again, stifle a free economy, doing end game is not only about getting gear, its about getting gil to fund endgame.

Making all gear Ex when purchased/picked up (so crafters can sell) brings in the issue that it becomes harder to earn money by selling stuff, which feeds directly into the hands of RMT, people would need gil more.

One solution could be the Sea Obi route. To get the rare/ex Obi you need to farm X items from several mobs, once you have the items you desire you can trade it in for an Obi, an expansion on this system would be that HNM's/bosses/endgame no longer drops gear, but drops, say, orbs. Once you collect a set amount of orbs you can talk to an NPC and trade it in for an item, but you could also make it so that killing NM's isnt the only way to get an orb, you get it through completing quests, or finishing dungeons or whatever, that way no single person can monopolise an NM for X gear and the end game gear can eventually be obtained by working long and hard enough for it, and cannot be purchased with gil.

One of the main problems with FFXI for newcomers is that earning gil is an issue, you start off with 50 gil and by level 7 need a few thousand to buy the leather armour set, as you level up you need more gil to buy more items to continue leveling up, it is in these levels that you are more likely to find people reaching for the visa. If FFXIV can combat this by allowing lower levels to make decent enough gil easily to level up with the basics of armour/weapons/foods, then you can cut off a supply route for RMT.

But at the end of the day there is no easy solution, there never will be. Anything a player can do to earn gil, RMT will do en-mass, the easier you make gil to acquire, the more likely you are to have people buying gil because everyone has billions, the less gil people have the more you are likely to find people buying it to get the uber rare item of whatever, so it is a very tricky balance.
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#28 Dec 15 2009 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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I may have already said this, but I don't think a player economy is all that vital, or even necessarily desirable in an MMO. You can still have crafting and trade just as many single player RPGs do. I don't think the player to player market offers such great advantages to a player to NPC market when considering all the RMT it invites.
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#29 Dec 15 2009 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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You can't compare a single player RPG's crafting system with an MMO's, they are two totally different systems. An MMO has a supply chain from the bottom (crystal, ores) to the middle men (turning ores into ingots etc..) to the end product (turning ingots into weapons/armour), that means that someone who is level 100 blacksmith can still rely on a level 30 goldsmith for the ingots they need to make item X.

It also introduces competition between players so people can hunt the best priced items. NPC's in FFXI charge silly amounts for worthless gear, and it will always be a static amount no matter how the economy is doing. If everyone has a billion gil, that item will still be 100k from an NPC, if no one has more than 20k gil, that item is still 100k from an NPC.

Then you have the mats which only drop from NM's or BCNM/KSNM which again add supply to the market and give non-crafters a way to make gil.

An MMO needs a vibrant economy, it needs supply chains for people to make money, it needs items for people to spend money on, it needs money coming into the game and money leaving the game. If there is too much money coming in, the price of items rises as people pay more, if there is not enough money coming in, the price of items drops as people cannot pay more, that keeps the system dynamic.
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#30 Dec 15 2009 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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RMT will always be in the MMORPGs, as Leo mentioned, SE could just play undercover and catch the RMTers.. just go to major FF forums u will see the ads there, I m sure SE will find them.

but even you catch all these RMTers with website, you wont be able to stop individual selling accounts/gils/items privately.


here's my ideas..

To stop account selling...

have 1 handle bound/registered to 1 credit card/billing address, so when you are selling your account, and someone need to change the billing address from Los Angeles, CA to London, England.. SE should know what's going on.


To stop RMTers selling gils/items/services...
I dont know how you gonna stop gil sellings... but SE can make the NMs spawn in various locations instead?
like if Leaping Lizzy spawns for 10mins without being killed, she will walk to the dunes tunnel to meet her friends, and next time she will spawn there, it's harder for ppl to keep track and monopolize?
what do u think?
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#31 Dec 15 2009 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
An MMO needs a vibrant economy, it needs supply chains for people to make money, it needs items for people to spend money on, it needs money coming into the game and money leaving the game. If there is too much money coming in, the price of items rises as people pay more, if there is not enough money coming in, the price of items drops as people cannot pay more, that keeps the system dynamic.


An MMO doesn't need a player economy any more than it needs PvP. Actually it needs it far less. There are no real barriers to developing a good player to game market (save for maybe smart designers), and it also gets rid of the inflation and deflation issues that tend to upset people.

These days its even fully possible to create a dynamic player to game market that mimics actual supply and demand trends. I feel you are badly overstating the case for a player driven market.

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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#32 Dec 15 2009 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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every MMO will have RMT but there a difference frome having RMT and having RMT problems and that difference is that RMT has control over ffxi economic while in other MMO the RMT have no control at all

Making $ on ffxi is awful.

1) there very few ways to make money and it all involve trading with other ppl thrue the AH... RMT takes advantage of this by messing with the AH prices

2)there's very few thing you can solo easy in this game to make $..RMT takes advantage of this by farming this items and selling them on the AH for a sh*ty price so if you do farm them you wont make any $ on it

3)Mobs that drop items that sells for a high price in the AH are so few in number that when you try to camp them there like 20 other ppl waiting to clame it wich and up giving 2 choices wait hrs and hrs to get lucky for the clame or bring a few friend to help claim it and share the wealth with them making very little $ on it

they only good way of making $ on this game is BCNM but even BCNM still suck the drop rate for that item worth selling has a awful drop that you could do 30 runs and still be waiting for it to drop and collecting the seals to do a BCNM takes alot of time onlest you spend more then 6hr a day killing mobs you be lucky to collect enouf seals for 2 runs at the end of the week


Rmt have ffxi players by the balls where the players have very little choise but to buy $ online so they can keep lvling questing or do what ever they do with out having the need to stop and farm for 2-3 days wich is what the averege player spend when trying to farm $.

just like robbyfaces posted ffxi is a paradise for all RMT


Edited, Dec 15th 2009 1:54pm by Drakent

Edited, Dec 15th 2009 1:55pm by Drakent
#33 Dec 15 2009 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
An MMO needs a vibrant economy, it needs supply chains for people to make money, it needs items for people to spend money on, it needs money coming into the game and money leaving the game. If there is too much money coming in, the price of items rises as people pay more, if there is not enough money coming in, the price of items drops as people cannot pay more, that keeps the system dynamic.


An MMO doesn't need a player economy any more than it needs PvP. Actually it needs it far less. There are no real barriers to developing a good player to game market (save for maybe smart designers), and it also gets rid of the inflation and deflation issues that tend to upset people.

These days its even fully possible to create a dynamic player to game market that mimics actual supply and demand trends. I feel you are badly overstating the case for a player driven market.


With no player run economy, there are no need for crafters, nor consumables because everything must be purchasable from an NPC and not from other players. With that in mind, gil would need to come from somewhere to purchase the items you need from an NPC, with no player run economy all items will have to be sold to an NPC which means that is where money creation comes from, and the money is destroyed when they purchase gear/consumables, because there is no play run economy to sell the items you've purchased after you have purchased them.

This is all well and good in an RPG, in an RPG if you want item X, you go out and get item X, there is no competition for it, you can also make money from defeating monsters, but you also don't have the consumable side of things too.

Lets go and have a look at our venerable favourite, Sushi. Tentacle sushi sounds nice, very hentai in origin. It requires:

Ginger
Tarutaru Rice
Rice Vinegar
Distilled Water
Cone Calamary

All but the fish are available from an NPC so for the cook to make the fish, they need a fisherman to catch the fish, the fisherman needs bait (from cookery probably) etc.. so you get a symbiotic relationship there, all to sell hentai sushi for people to eat and help kill mobs, they pay for the food so the crafter can make more so he buys more fish which feeds the fisherman who buys the sushi to level, and thats just a small part of it.
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-- Stephen Fry
#34 Dec 15 2009 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
With no player run economy, there are no need for crafters, nor consumables because everything must be purchasable from an NPC and not from other players.


That is simply not true. Crafting can still be a viable way to obtain money and gear. Many single-player games have enjoyable crafting systems that do not depend on player economies.

As for why there would be no need for consumables, that makes absolutely no sense.

I really don't need you to explain to me how player economies work. I'm abundantly familiar with them. So far you haven't explained why they are necessary, only certain aspects of how they work. Conversely, I've already explained why they AREN'T necessary, and you haven't provided a satisfactory rebuttal to that, either.

Quote:

All but the fish are available from an NPC so for the cook to make the fish, they need a fisherman to catch the fish, the fisherman needs bait (from cookery probably) etc.. so you get a symbiotic relationship there, all to sell hentai sushi for people to eat and help kill mobs, they pay for the food so the crafter can make more so he buys more fish which feeds the fisherman who buys the sushi to level, and thats just a small part of it.


All of those elements can remain intact without a player economy. The only difference is that players aren't trading among themselves, but with the game.
You can still catch fish. You can also buy the fish. It makes little difference to you whether you buy the fish from a player on the AH or from an NPC.
You sell your sushi to the NPC, and people buy their sushi from the NPC.

It's basically the same system, except rather than trading through an auction house or bazaars, people trade through NPCs. Prices can be fixed at the NPC, based on supply and demand, or be generous as ****-- and anywhere inbetween. The game can set stable prices or artificial market prices (in fact, FFXI already does this somewhat in the guild shops, though not very well). This also makes the economy MUCH easier to balance, because you don't have to worry about how much currency exists in the world. It doesn't matter. You can buy your Lederhosen+1 without consideration for inflation or deflation.

The only thing a player economy offers is authenticity, which is not necessarily a good thing, and in this case not nearly enough to offset the detriment of RMT.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#35 Dec 15 2009 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Edit: back on topic, what are your anti-RMT ideas/theories?


offhand:

1) No world-wide channels. This BEGS RMT to make obnoxious spambots.

2) 24hr GMs. Not an army of them mind you, but ones that when they receive 5 different reports from players about a RMT shout spamming in whatever populated zone they're spamming, they can pop in to ban them.

3) NPC items that don't vastly scale in worth as you level. Now, I realize that's counter intuitive in a realistic sense; which is to say your Onion Sword shouldn't be as valuable to an NPC as a Diamond Sword; but the flip side is this. In the case of Aion when you start out you can sell a basic armor drop for let's say 1k Kinah (their currency) by level 35 the same throw away armor and weapons are NPC'ing for 150k each. It creates terrible inflation. Now, you could create equally expensive consumables at the NPC to try and deflate the economy, but at that point, why not just keep the inflation rate lower to begin with?

3a) High inflation rates devalue the currency making it cheaper to purchase. We all saw what happened when the RMT unleashed the reportedly 5$ per million gil christmas sale years back (via duped gil, iirc). The low RL price proved too much of a temptation to people and the economy was hyper-inflated. But if that same million gil costs 35$ in RL dollars, people are much less tempted.
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#36 Dec 15 2009 at 6:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Crafters would love that, they make the items which then get sold and can't be resold, so there is a constant market for crafters (which RMT would flood), non-crafters on the other hand would have to farm, farm and farm some more to earn the gil to buy the item which once they buy, has no value at all left. BoP would stifle an economy, yes there should be EX items, but if I kill X mob and get Y drop, I'd want to be able to sell that Y drop to buy Z stuff that *I* need, otherwise we get into the situation where I have to kill set mobs for set gear, or farm farm and farm some more (or, heres the killer... buy gil!) to get the stuff I need.


I guess that begs the (admittedly scary) question:
Is farming as a viable source of income something we should be preserving?

Zoning out is a form of entertainment often used by dungeon crawlers, beat 'em ups, and puzzle games. People enjoy it, there's a certain therapy in mindless repetition. And because MMOs try their best to satisfy as many player-types as possible, Farming serves a wonderful purpose in appealing to that Zoner kind of play.

Unfortunately, Farming embodies all that players have come to dislike about MMOs. It's rewards are more time-based than they are skill-based. It's an activity that easily becomes unpleasant Grind when it's enforced by game mechanics and not done on your own terms. It's a forum that puts RMT and legitimate players on unequal footing (because RMT use cheating devices to turn the situation in their favor)

I think there's validity to farming as we know it. But I don't think there's so much validity that it's best to actively encourage a game's economy to keep/make it so potent. I'd sooner like to see the adoption of weapon/armor BoP and have Farming reinvented in such a way that skill is rewarded. The zone-out activity could be moved to something else that can still potentially reward players but has less impact on the economy as a whole and isn't vulnerable to cheating devices (like say, gambling). Also, more options for non-crafters to make money couldn't hurt either.



Edited, Dec 15th 2009 8:44pm by Zemzelette
#37 Dec 15 2009 at 11:14 PM Rating: Good
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I haven't seen anyone mention this so I guess I will.

People are posting that if RMTs are required to level up a craft or go through a system of quests to get to a point where they can make a good amount money it might dissuade them. It might stop some but only the stupid ones. As some other posters have said RMTs have bots and 24/7 so they can level up many accounts at once with no time restraints.



Quote:
Basically if RMTs want the good stuff, they will have to PLAY THROUGH THE GAME the way SE intended. Think about it, how many RMTs did you see that were rank 10? Almost none because they would level grind and go straight for the loot. With the leve system they can grind themselves 'til the Chinese year of the Hot Fudge Sunday and it won't do them any good unless they wade their way through the story just like the rest of us. Either that or they take up crafting which, if it remains as tedious and time consuming as it was in FFXI, should at least slow them down.

Quote:
Sadly, if a player can do X, nothing prevents an RMT farmer from doing X 24/7.


I'm afraid, however, that it is much more simple than that. RMTs still wouldn't need to spend the time to level/quest through the game. They could simply buy accounts. Plenty of people sell their accounts when they leave a game so that they won't be tempted to return, or whatever other reason. Easy pickings for RMT. It will take some time before people start selling accounts, but RMT is rarely it's strongets at a game's release.


Quote:
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
An MMO needs a vibrant economy, it needs supply chains for people to make money, it needs items for people to spend money on, it needs money coming into the game and money leaving the game. If there is too much money coming in, the price of items rises as people pay more, if there is not enough money coming in, the price of items drops as people cannot pay more, that keeps the system dynamic.
An MMO doesn't need a player economy any more than it needs PvP. Actually it needs it far less. There are no real barriers to developing a good player to game market (save for maybe smart designers), and it also gets rid of the inflation and deflation issues that tend to upset people.

These days its even fully possible to create a dynamic player to game market that mimics actual supply and demand trends. I feel you are badly overstating the case for a player driven market.



I can understand how a non-player driven economy could work, but a lot of people play the game just for that barter system. Think about it. How many people are addicted to shopping? How many people buy/sell just for something to do? It's not just about earning and spending money to everyone. To some people it's an activity just as much as hunting NMs or raiding. I can easily say that I enjoy trading, even if it's not why I play MMOs.


NM hunting was one of my favorite things to do in XI. I'd hunt for items that I wanted to use as well as items I wanted to sell to make money to buy items I want to use. Making all NM drops BoP would ruin that for players like me. The best NM drops could be BoP and it wouldn't much bother me.

Valkurm Emperor and Mee Deggi for example. Okote should definitely be BoP. The drop rate was rediculous, but what made it really bad was all the competition. Even if it's BoP there would still be competition becuase the item is awesome and a lot of people want it, however it wouldn't be the same group of Gilfarmers everytime(an image of a Galka in MNK AF comes to mind).

The ones I'd camp to make money were much lower teir. I liked the Crypt Ghost, the Doppelgangers, and the crawler by Windurst the most. Their drops sold between 10-45k. Not a lot. Not enough to interest RMT. There was always some competition so it wasn't boring and with the Doppelgangers and the crawler I could farm silk while waiting.

My point is that differant things are important differant players whether it be shopping, hunting, farming, raiding, crafting, gathering, or whatever niche you find.


Quote:
Quote:
Edit: back on topic, what are your anti-RMT ideas/theories?



The problem with RMT isn't that they sell game currency, or even that players buy game currency. The problem is what they do in game to get the currency they're selling. They are interupting real players from getting the real game experience. Over camping a NM, farming mats, crafting, or whatever. It disrupts the economy and causes players grief.

Players are going to buy game currency. That's just the way it is. So our RMT solution has to involve people still being able to buy game currency. Face it, SE, or any other game company, isn't going to lose all the profit from EZ mode gamers just to get rid of RMT. **** they might not even want RMT gone(RMT pay $15 a month for how many accounts?) If we want RMT gone then where are those people going to buy their game currency?

I've had an idea for some time. It's not very popular though if recent threads are any indication. My anti-RMT idea is this.

Game companies eliminate the middle man(RMT) and sell game currency themselves. If the developer is selling game currency I don't see how RMT companies could compete. The developer can sell more and at lower prices. If the dev sells cheaper than the RMT why would people still buy from RMT? I'm sure some still would. People are weird. "SE makes enough on my monthly $15 they don't need any more". I can see that happening some. Enough to keep RMT around though? I don't know.

They create game money with the touch of a few buttons. It's easy, takes very little time, they're making their player base happy, and making up for the loss of RMT subscription profits. There's almost no reason for Developer to not implement such a system. If it works...


In theory - Developer sells game currency -> Majority of Gilbuyers buy from Developer -> RMT can't compete -> RMT stop interfering with in-game activities.


Maybe that's what this new Crysta currency system is about. I doubt it, but maybe.


I don't buy game currency nor do I support it, but the fact remains that some players will buy currency and there's nothing anyone can do about it. I fully support the developers selling game currency if it gets RMT out of my game. I'm guessing I'll be rated down for my suggestion. Take it as you will.


Edited, Dec 16th 2009 12:19am by Nalamwen
#38 Dec 15 2009 at 11:53 PM Rating: Good
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Nalamwen wrote:
Game companies eliminate the middle man(RMT) and sell game currency themselves. If the developer is selling game currency I don't see how RMT companies could compete. The developer can sell more and at lower prices. If the dev sells cheaper than the RMT why would people still buy from RMT? I'm sure some still would. People are weird. "SE makes enough on my monthly $15 they don't need any more". I can see that happening some. Enough to keep RMT around though? I don't know.


nah man... that aint gonna work
lets say RMT selling 1million for 10bucks, SE sells 1million for 5bucks, this will ruin the economy.
it might end up the price for a single pebble will cost 10k, then ppl wouldnt be able to keep up w/ the economy and quit
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#39 Dec 16 2009 at 12:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I considered that too. 1mil at $10 from RMT -> SE $9 -> RMT $8 -> SE $7 etc. etc.

But, if we could somehow keep the in-game economy the same for long enough SE would eventually beat the RMT. The question is, at what point do the RMT stop making enough real money to keep going? When would they quite?

Also, SE could just match RMT prices and most people would opt to buy from SE. Why risk getting banned by buying from RMT when you can get the same thing from SE with no penalty? Not very many people actually get caught but it's still a risk. Why take the risk?

With most people buying from SE would RMTs still make enough to continue? That's the point that we can't know.
#40 Dec 16 2009 at 12:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's nothing wrong with that perspective.
If folks rate you down, it would be wholly knee-jerk.

I think the only issue I find with your posit, is that nothing exists in a vacuum.

Let's take the relationship between LegalRMT and BoP, for instance. Instituting BoP with lRMT is redundant, the effect on RMT is the same, although the effect on the economy is different (BoP controls market saturation, lRMT encourages it). If you institute lRMT without BoP, you've created a game where endgame incentives have been undermined. If you institute BoP without lRMT, you've created a game where people can't liquidate their assets and the demographic interested in NM Hunting has to be otherwise satisfied.

There's consequences to every choice. Finding the right answer here is less about starry-eyes aspirations of best case scenarios, but identifying the consequences we can find comprises for. I'm not sure how to keep players interested in the Loot Carrot, when Loot is purchasable. I have no idea how to combat market saturation and inflation when currency is being fed into the system at a gilbuying rate. But I can think of a dozen different ways to otherwise satisfy Challenge and Competition oriented player-types, at least half a dozen involving combat with mobs specifically.



Edited, Dec 16th 2009 1:22am by Zemzelette
#41 Dec 16 2009 at 12:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I meant BoP only on specific peices of equipment. My examples were the Valkurm Emperor and Mee Deggi.

How does LRMT undermine endgame? I don't understand. People would still do raids. Many people play the game only to do raids.
#42 Dec 16 2009 at 1:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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It was legal RMT without Rare/EX that hurts endgame. Basically, if anything can be sold for gil, and gil can be purchased with money, that means money can purchase anything. Endgame is all about rewarding challenge with Loot, but gilbuying allows you to circumvent any challenge. You would get people buying Endgame gear instead of participating in Endgame to get it.

The major drawback of legal RMT is that it increases inflation. Illegal RMT takes gil in circulation and exchanges from the hands of one player to another. Legal RMT just adds more gil to the system. I don't want to get too in depth into inflation, but it's the worst enemy of an MMO economy. There are repercussions depending on which things you decide to label Rare/EX.

These things are oil and water:
If nothing is Rare/EX, legal RMT covers everything.
If some endgame items are Rare/EX, that means legalRMT covers some endgame and all crafting items.
If all endgame items are Rare/EX, that means legalRMT covers all crafting items.
If all crafted items are Rare/EX, then all endgame items are covered by legalRMT.*
If All crafted and endgame items are Rare/EX that means legalRMT doesn't cover anything.*

In the first case, endgame is undermined, with inflation. The second case is FFXI's case, except with inflation. The third case is WoW, except with inflation. The fourth undermines endgame, with inflation. The fifth case has no reason for legal RMT existing.




*not that you'd ever want to have crafted items be rare/ex, as that means it would be bound to the crafter ^_^;

The soulbinding system is slightly different, there's a rare/ex equivalent called BoP and also something else called BoE. The crafter can create an item, or a raider can save an item to sell it to another player which then has only the option to wear or drop it. BoE stuff probably would work best with legalRMT, as it gets gil to switch hands at least.






/edit: To erase stupidity. What was I thinking? Ugh. Will blame lack of caffeine.



Edited, Dec 16th 2009 3:51am by Zemzelette
#43 Dec 16 2009 at 7:09 AM Rating: Decent
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ah I understand now.

I was thinking more along the lines of option 2. Some endgame items being BoP. The exceptionally good/best peices of gear.

The inflation could be prevented by a higher tax at the Auction House, some crafting mats being only available at NPC vendors, certain areas costing a fee to enter(crosses fingers for Opera House and Chocobo Racing), losing some currency upon death, but of course all of those things affect all players and not just gilbuyers. Which is a bad thing.

The inflation might not be any worse with legal RMT than it is with the bad kind. It probably would though. I'm sure there are a few people that don't buy only becuase it could get them banned.

I just wish there was a way to make it work. RMT ruined FFXI for quite a few people, myself included. Guess you can't have your cake and eat it too, huh? NM hunting and no RMT is too much to ask for. Well if I have to make a choice I'd rather see all NM drops BoP if it would get rid of RMT.

It still leaves craftng, gathering, and farming for RMT though. I was trying to think of something that would reduce their presence in all forms of the game.
#44 Dec 16 2009 at 10:33 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
My point is that differant things are important differant players whether it be shopping, hunting, farming, raiding, crafting, gathering, or whatever niche you find.


Your point is not invalid-- there are people who enjoy aspects of the game that necessitate a player economy, but I think overall, this is a small minority of players, who even among themselves probably find RMT more irritating than they find a player economy enjoyable.

I enjoyed playing the economy in XI for a long time; however, I would have enjoyed the game much more as a whole were it not for inflations, deflations, and RMT.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#45 Dec 16 2009 at 3:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Guess you can't have your cake and eat it too, huh?



Maybe you can.

NM Hunting was always a very strange practice.
There's nothing in the gameplay that supports the activity. No NPCs that talk about it, No food improves your ability to do it, no statistic is associated with it, it's something that exists secluded from the rest of the game. I think we can have our cake and eat it too, if we legitimize NM Hunting as a valid form of gameplay.

I think firstly, NM Hunting itself needs to isolated as a practice. NM hunting as it stands is at odds with itself. The people who could use the gear sometimes didn't like the practice of camping a NM to get it, and the people who did like the practice largely had no interest in the gear. What motivates a player attempting to gear for PvE dungeon crawls is nothing near that motivates a player looking for hardcore competition and challenge. These two things are fundamentally different, and nothing great is achieved by lumping them into the same activity.

So lets separate them out.

What if we had a system that was less like grabbing loot, and more like Bounty Hunting?
It would act a hybrid between a quest hub and crafting guild. While all NMs can be camped for a proof-of-kill drop that can be exchanged at an NPC for cold, hard, gil. Some NMs are proclaimed especially notorious that given week, and the Hunter's Guild gives a bonus for returning with it's head on a pike. You could even play around with some kind of leader-boards or ranking system, to really encourage competitive play.

This preserves NM Hunting as it stands, sans the actual item to sell. It also gives some benefits the current system doesn't. Since your not selling an item, you don't have to wait for someone to buy it, and your not victim to market fluctuations. Encouraging players to target some NMs over others, allows you to actively choose how competitive you want your NM hunting to be. The randomization feature means your not always camping the same NM day in and day out.

If we sit down and think about why it's fun, we can build a system from the ground up that capitalizes on the parts we enjoy while avoiding the pitfalls. (Not saying the above does that, but, I think if a company were really willing to pursue this they could come up with all sorts of interesting ideas.)

Edited, Dec 16th 2009 4:27pm by Zemzelette
#46 Dec 16 2009 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Unfortunately, we don't really know what makes something fun. There's no real research on the subject, though that's something I'm likely to be working on in the near future. I just finished a literary review on the subject, actually.

There is some broader data on what intrinsically motivates people, but it's not activity-centered. i.e., it tells us things that people like about playing baseball aside from the game itself, but doesn't tell us what about baseball makes it fun (or in the case of baseball, booooooooriiiiing.)

We can always speculate, of course.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Dec 16 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I think you're onto something with the NM hunting.

It would be way more fun to be chasing an NM across an area instead of just waiting for hours on end for one to pop.

Another thing that would be cool is if the NM cannot be "claimed". Anyone who does damage to it will get compensated by the guild with guild points, assuming the NM dies. It would also be cool if the NM can realize that it is being over-powered and tries to run away. This would force players to chase it down to finish the kill.

At the guild you can be given guild points according to the amount of damage done to the NM, or the amount of healing you provided to people hurt by the NM. Using these guild points you can buy rare items.

By having the NM appear in a wide area and run around a zone while you are trying to defeat it, it makes it a lot more difficult to bot, thus making it harder for RMT. Also because the NM can't be claimed, anyone can apply damage to the NM, so fast claim bots won't be an issue.
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