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Notice about breaking NDAFollow

#1 Dec 17 2009 at 12:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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I know that today has been an exciting day and I don't want to be a killjoy, but the official ZAM policy for all beta games under NDA is to nuke and ban all playerbase attempts at breaking the agreement. We will not be a medium for people to break NDAs and that is what our stance will be for XIV as well.

I'm only mentioning this because I've heard from a couple of people today that they don't take the NDA seriously and that they want to be a source of information for friends/players that don't get in. Please take the agreement seriously.

Edited, Dec 27th 2009 1:12am by Pikko
#2 Dec 17 2009 at 12:34 AM Rating: Good
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I agree , It's a privilege to be one of the chosen few and breaking the NDA agreement would make getting info on future games like it's been this past month ...NOTHING AT ALL! or future betas will not be available to NA and EU players. Regardless when you clicked agree to the NDA you gave your word , so stand by it.
#3 Dec 17 2009 at 1:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, if you sign an agreement, you ought to stick with it. Your friends will learn about all the goodies in FF14 soon enough.
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#4 Dec 17 2009 at 1:52 AM Rating: Good
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People telling their close friends is going to be inevitable, but it should definitely shouldn't be discussed anyplace very public (like the internet)
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#5 Dec 17 2009 at 3:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Caia wrote:
Yeah, if you sign an agreement, you ought to stick with it. Your friends will learn about all the goodies in FF14 soon enough.


Like anyone follows the ToS in FFXI. Un-official Windower, plug-ins, misc hacks such as AP radar, and bots and scripts. I agree that you should follow the agreement you sign although it's foolish to believe the info will be contained for long. It doesn't look like BG or other sites will be enforcing this policy so what's the point. Quite frankly, Allakhazam's censorship won't change anything. This is the internet people, you can find anything if you look hard enough. Don't believe me, well most of us have seen this pic floating around haven't we. http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=20914

I personally feel if SE was more informative in general, we wouldn't have to share info via un-official channels in the first place. Allah's ban on leaked Beta info won't change anything. All it will do is make ZAM a resource for official and "dated" info. I encourage you Pikko to let SE know they must be more forth coming if they don't wish for people to look elsewhere for details.

Edited, Dec 17th 2009 3:27am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#6 Dec 17 2009 at 3:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think any of us believe ZAM's moratorium on insider beta info is supposed to prevent any and all leaks of information. As a site with a working relationship with Square Enix, we simply can't condone those actions or let the results be posted on our forums. I'd be really surprised if other big sites like Eorzeapedia and Core don't institue similar policies. Even BG has heard from SE's lawyers in the past, so it's entirely possible they may follow suit.

I'm right there with people who think SE needs to unclog the pipes of communication a bit. But in this case, it's more about them not wanting to compromise the development process than just keeping secrets from an eager fan base. There are minor issues, like things they don't wish to reveal since they aren't complete or subject to large changes. There are more major ones too, like serious bugs and issues that the devs would want to patch up quickly and not broadcast to the world.

Just my take on things. The admins here want to get you any scrap of information we can, and maintaining a relationship of trust with SE is the best way to do that.

Edited, Dec 17th 2009 9:57am by Elmer
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#7 Dec 17 2009 at 5:28 AM Rating: Good
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Like anyone follows the ToS in FFXI. Un-official Windower, plug-ins, misc hacks such as AP radar, and bots and scripts. <snip>


Ugh. I'm not going to rehash THAT old debate. :)

SE wants to keep private material private. I'm a libertarian and a huge advocate of intellectual rights. Moreover, if I get information in confidence, I will NOT be telling anyone. I'd hope that others would take it equally as seriously, but I know not everyone will. Such is life.
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#8 Dec 17 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Excellent
ParanoidPuma wrote:
People telling their close friends is going to be inevitable, but it should definitely shouldn't be discussed anyplace very public (like the internet)

I disagree with this. I recall an expression my mother used to use: "loose lips sink ships." If you tell a friend, it's not exactly a secret anymore.

Perhaps Pikko or Elmer can answer this question for me: I know the NDA says that you're not allowed to discuss even so much as the fact that you were accepted to be a beta tester. Are you allowed to at least say whether or not you applied for it?
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#9 Dec 17 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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It doesn't affect anything to say you applied, but whether you were accepted becomes something you can't disclose.

ShadowedgeFFXI, really, what would you have us do? Let people post screenshots and bug reports here instead of official channels just for the sake of letting people know when we know it's against their policy and only hurts our relationship with SE? I don't see how something that is very standard and basically universally understood and accepted in the gaming industry would make us an obsolete site. That's simply you being mad that you can't tell everyone something you were sworn to secrecy about, and blaming the people who don't want to let you write what you're not supposed to on their walls. I agree that SE's communication stinks and it has to change, but this isn't the phase of the game to take up that torch.
#10 Dec 17 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
People telling their close friends is going to be inevitable

Quote:
I disagree with this. I recall an expression my mother used to use: "loose lips sink ships." If you tell a friend, it's not exactly a secret anymore.



I also believe that it clearly violates the NDA. However, in the world we live in, it will happen and there's not much SE can do about word of mouth. If chosen for the beta, I will follow the NDA because I support the idea of online final fantasy titles and I wouldn't want to hinder a company that I support.
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Some cool pics of the Gigatoad and GM characters in there

Some old videos I made (Don't make fun of them, I was young at the time):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxdzD3gNtI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3jUcsKt0E0

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#11 Dec 17 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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I don't care enough to inform the entire internet about it, but I'm definitely telling my friends who play FFXI if I get beta access. That is unavoidable honestly.
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#12IRequiiem, Posted: Dec 17 2009 at 1:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) only terrible games need an NDA ;)
#13 Dec 17 2009 at 1:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I sign an agreement to keep something confidential, I'm on my honor to do so. This seems to be a foreign concept, keeping your word about something you agreed to?

I'm sort of paraphrasing my favorite author (Lois McMaster Bujold who wrote the Vorkosigan series, can't find the actual quote) but "reputation is what other people know of you, honor is what you know about yourself."
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#14 Dec 17 2009 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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ParanoidPuma wrote:
I also believe that it clearly violates the NDA. However, in the world we live in, it will happen and there's not much SE can do about word of mouth. If chosen for the beta, I will follow the NDA because I support the idea of online final fantasy titles and I wouldn't want to hinder a company that I support.


The irony is that they owe an awful lot of the success of FFXI in both NA and EU to word of mouth.

I personally stand by my word but I feel a more open development process would yield a better product at the end of the day. SE is far too draconian and out of touch to be majorly successful in the MMO market anymore. They lured people in to FFXI with a brand name and a good reputation, most of the players they have in this game will be wise to their business practices when it comes to round 2.
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#15 Dec 17 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I highly doubt that many will follow the NDA in the strictest sense this time around. Back in the day, those things were taken very seriously and out of respect for both developers and players.

Now, when there are so many loopholes and workarounds to NDAs, they are relatively harmless. The worst thing that a company CAN immediately do to you is ban you from beta testing. They cannot ban you from purchasing their product, nor bring a lawsuit against you that's going to hold up in court unless you actually caused financial harm. Read the Terms and Conditions fully.

Heck, I was just in the SoM beta for LOTRO not too long ago. I was so ****** off at the direction that game was taking, I sacrificed my own beta and posted a huge feedback on the main forum. They didn't even ban me, and all the beta player posts are monitored at Turbine.

Even though I didn't care (I cancelled everything after posting), it just goes to show you that NDA doesn't mean what it used to.

Regardless of the fact that NDAs are fairly harmless, you should still try to honor your agreement with SE and be a dutiful beta tester...so we can get the game that much sooner!
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#16 Dec 17 2009 at 3:24 PM Rating: Excellent
Everything Elmer said, especially this:

Quote:
The admins here want to get you any scrap of information we can, and maintaining a relationship of trust with SE is the best way to do that.


If we want more communication with SE, then we must hold up our end of the relationship, as well.
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#17 Dec 17 2009 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Pikko wrote:

ShadowedgeFFXI, really, what would you have us do? Let people post screenshots and bug reports here instead of official channels just for the sake of letting people know when we know it's against their policy and only hurts our relationship with SE? I don't see how something that is very standard and basically universally understood and accepted in the gaming industry would make us an obsolete site. That's simply you being mad that you can't tell everyone something you were sworn to secrecy about, and blaming the people who don't want to let you write what you're not supposed to on their walls. I agree that SE's communication stinks and it has to change, but this isn't the phase of the game to take up that torch.


Well I doubt anybody cares about bug reports. We're curious how exactly Guildeves works, how the game plays without auto-attack and stuff like that. I've never said I was mad, all I said was the info will get out regardless of what steps SE takes to safeguard them. I'll give you another example to prove my point. You remember all those posts from /dat miners prior to an update. Well this Beta will be the same thing. Tummy's dat mining posts are viewed by thousands of people who simply can't wait for SE to come forward with the contents. Do we have an new Avatar or not? NO ; ;

So apply that logic to the Beta test and tell me that people like Tummy won't be finding a way to get the info out though un-official channels. I highly doubt SE wanted us to see all of that ebon gear that Tummy posted either, but I don't recall you guys caring much about that. I can easily see some beta hackers going into the code of FFXIV and posting screen shots from stuff like endgame(Walk of echoes, anyone) and HNM mobs during this test should the dats be in the game.

Look the bottom line is people will open their mouth regardless of any safeguards we take. Any official site like Allakhazam won't get the same traffic if our news is dated. That's why I was suggesting for you guys to contact SE directly and let them know it's in their best interest to comply. I'm suggesting that if you enforce a strict policy, at least get SE to provide us with scoops. You cut people off, they go underground. The more info that SE can show us, the more secure their Beta info will be as a result of open communication. We don't about the bugs or other things that pop up during Beta. That being said, I sincerely believe the Evolith/ Snergy system is another Beta test for FFXIV, only SE is testing the potential and balance within FFXI instead.
#18 Dec 17 2009 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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The kind of information you're talking about is stuff that Square Enix can release on their own. There's no need for players to violate NDA just to inform everyone about Guildleve as people will find out through official channels eventually anyway. While you may think this makes the info "dated", I'd call it more accurate. I'd rather have SE's official, FINAL details than some beta tester's opinions on a system that will likely change before going into the final version.

Like I said, I don't know how SE is going to conduct their beta phase, but NDAs usually get lifted after a certain point and after that you're free to talk all you like. Until then though, all I'm saying is that your ZAM account will be banned if you intentionally violate the NDA.
#19 Dec 17 2009 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Pikko wrote:

Like I said, I don't know how SE is going to conduct their beta phase, but NDAs usually get lifted after a certain point and after that you're free to talk all you like.


I hope you're right Pikko. I don't have the faith you seem to have dealing with SE.
#20 Dec 17 2009 at 8:13 PM Rating: Default
Don't worry Shadowedge, there will be a bunch of non-Alla places which will be full of information regarding the beta if we don't get in so it just means that people will go elsewhere for the information.

What irks me is that Alla never gets any early information or anything that could be considered a world exclusive from SE and yet they still hump their leg like a desperate puppy.

Edited, Dec 17th 2009 9:18pm by Miitan
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#21 Dec 17 2009 at 8:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Miitan, while you may not give a crap about SE coming after you individually, you have that luxury. ZAM still has to conduct itself in a responsible, legal, business-like manner and I don't really see why you're being so callous about it.
#22 Dec 17 2009 at 8:45 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I personally feel if SE was more informative in general, we wouldn't have to share info via un-official channels in the first place.

What info via unofficial channels are we talking about? You seem to imply that SE hasn't been forthcoming about every piece of FFXIV info that we already have. If your only source is that FFXIII add-in thing, you've got a lot more work to do to justify your stance. It's grossly obtuse that you think anyone has to share info, as if SE is being the irresponsible party here.

Quote:
You remember all those posts from /dat miners prior to an update. Well this Beta will be the same thing. Tummy's dat mining posts are viewed by thousands of people who simply can't wait for SE to come forward with the contents.

This is not the same thing. Say what you will about .dat mining, SE does not explicitly impose restrictions on that. You can be sure if they did, you would no longer see this information posted here. I don't even need to mention the difference between revealing finished, customer-wide distributed content versus the ramifications of revealing unfinished, potentially broken and selectively-distributed content. What we have here is an explicit NDA, and for the sake of maintaining what bond of trust exists between ZAM and SE, Pikko is doing only what she must.

Quote:
Any official site like Allakhazam won't get the same traffic if our news is dated.

We have been extended a privilege by SE to participate in a closed beta, and all that is asked in return is that participants do not disseminate information regarding the beta during the process. Breaking that trust for the sake of impatient fans is not news, it's pandering.

Quote:
You cut people off, they go underground. The more info that SE can show us, the more secure their Beta info will be as a result of open communication.

This almost sounds like a threat. SE has not cut anyone off, but do feel free to bury yourself far underground anyway. Communication with SE is not fantastic, but they are not obliged to give us more information than they do, and I think what info we do have from an unfinished product which has already been stated will be fashioned quite dramatically based on beta feedback is already a friendly show of good faith. What right do you have to decide what arbitrary amount of information SE needs to "officially" show us before you decide their NDA deserves to be honored? You can't cry that we don't have open communication while treating them like their NDA should to be broken.

Quote:
We don't (care) about the bugs or other things that pop up during Beta.

Do you even know what a beta is? It is an incomplete, bug-ridden test version of a game released for the primary purpose of locating, documenting, and repairing bugs. You're implying that something more substantial is supposed to come out of a beta, yet I'm sure after you're done soaking up all the leaked beta info you'll jump right on the "look at this broken mess, I'm not buying FFXIV" bandwagon which the NDA is for all intents and purposes meant to deter. As stated before, it has been said that much of FFXIV's gameplay will be tailored specifically to feedback from the beta test, so whatever information "inevitably" leaks out from the beta will hardly be indicative of the final product anyway.

Quote:
I hope you're right Pikko. I don't have the faith you seem to have dealing with SE.

That's probably because Pikko has actually dealt with SE and realized they're not a group of heartless customer-hating penny pinchers who go out of their way every waking moment of their lives to dissatisfy people like you, especially by committing such heinous acts as giving access to a beta test like they said they would and promising to tailor significant portions of the game to our feedback while audaciously asking us to keep things under wraps for the time being.

Your logical fallacies are disgusting and I feel utterly dirty for having to share a forum with ignorance of this magnitude. People who make posts like yours absolutely bring down the community and don't deserve the right to participate in the discussions that make us what we are. In this thread you've set out to undermine this site and the relationship it has with the one entity it respects most despite its shortcomings. For all that people like you endlessly complain about the black-hearted evil that is SE, you do nothing to contribute to the cause of improving established communications with them and really seem to be calling for the destruction of what connection we already have. Shame on you.

Edited, Dec 17th 2009 9:58pm by TraumaFox
#23 Dec 17 2009 at 8:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Pikko wrote:

Like I said, I don't know how SE is going to conduct their beta phase, but NDAs usually get lifted after a certain point and after that you're free to talk all you like.


I hope you're right Pikko. I don't have the faith you seem to have dealing with SE.
I'm sure having some kind of a relationship beyond being a paying customer helps with having more faith in SE than you or I. It also probably helps having even less faith than you or I, depending of course. I would hope SE does a better job at relations with the media than they do with us.


Would simply expressing that the beta version is the bestest beta of a game ever count toward a nono? I would imagine so because policy is policy but it would be hilarious to see someone terminated from the beta or from anywhere for being supportive without revealing a thing about said game, because it's kind of going overboard even if policy is policy. I can easily see beta testers doing just this on these very forums assuming since they are not revealing any information that it is at least fair game to say they like it. I suppose expressing your like or dislike counts towards admitting you are a tester which apparently even that is a nono according to policy. I suppose I bring this up for the sake of saving a few testers from finding themselves banned in the near future over nothing really. It's a videogame beta, not area 51. Still, agreements are agreements and so many people fail at them because they rather tl;dr them than not.
#24 Dec 17 2009 at 9:25 PM Rating: Default
Pikko wrote:
Miitan, while you may not give a crap about SE coming after you individually, you have that luxury. ZAM still has to conduct itself in a responsible, legal, business-like manner and I don't really see why you're being so callous about it.


I simply posted the truth, if that came across as callous then so be it.

I would like to know why you are, however, accusing me of being someone who will break the NDA. Stating that information will be available does not suddenly make you the perpetrator last time I checked.
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#25 Dec 17 2009 at 10:53 PM Rating: Decent
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TraumaFox wrote:

What info via unofficial channels are we talking about? You seem to imply that SE hasn't been forthcoming about every piece of FFXIV info that we already have. If your only source is that FFXIII add-in thing, you've got a lot more work to do to justify your stance. It's grossly obtuse that you think anyone has to share info, as if SE is being the irresponsible party here.


I speculating that once FFXIV Beta begins, we'll find new info via word of mouth. Some of this info will be on fan sites until SE shuts them down.

Quote:

We have been extended a privilege by SE to participate in a closed beta, and all that is asked in return is that participants do not disseminate information regarding the beta during the process. Breaking that trust for the sake of impatient fans is not news, it's pandering.


I don't agree. SE is seriously trying to appeal to the mainstream and hardcore MMO fans alike. FFXI had a distinctive JPRPG MMO feel to it. SE's has learned from WoW what it needs to do to cover more of the mainstream market and that is why we're being allowed to beta test with more emphasis(much longer testing) than FFXI Beta. As a matter of fact, the reason FFXIV has English only voice-overs proves my point for me. SE needs our help game to help balance it across all regions, that's the way I see it. You make it seem as if SE is allowing us to beta test out of the goodness of their heart with no ulterior motive.

Quote:

This almost sounds like a threat. SE has not cut anyone off, but do feel free to bury yourself far underground anyway. Communication with SE is not fantastic, but they are not obliged to give us more information than they do, and I think what info we do have from an unfinished product which has already been stated will be fashioned quite dramatically based on beta feedback is already a friendly show of good faith. What right do you have to decide what arbitrary amount of information SE needs to "officially" show us before you decide their NDA deserves to be honored? You can't cry that we don't have open communication while treating them like their NDA should to be broken.


Communication with SE is almost as bad as there Customer service. You might remember the enfeebling nerf awhile back. It took a lot of ******** by everyone including Pikko and co. to get them to even address the flaw. The only reason AV/PW timers were changed is because these HNM's made the mainstream news for the extra long 18hr fight. It was bad press at the highest levels.

I'm personally not planning to break the NDA regardless of the outcome. Like another poster pointed out, someone else will though. A single person posting on youtube alone can splice together enough footage to get the word out. Eventually it will be taken down thanks to SE's lawyers, but the damage will be done.

Quote:

Do you even know what a beta is? It is an incomplete, bug-ridden test version of a game released for the primary purpose of locating, documenting, and repairing bugs. You're implying that something more substantial is supposed to come out of a beta, yet I'm sure after you're done soaking up all the leaked beta info you'll jump right on the "look at this broken mess, I'm not buying FFXIV" bandwagon which the NDA is for all intents and purposes meant to deter. As stated before, it has been said that much of FFXIV's gameplay will be tailored specifically to feedback from the beta test, so whatever information "inevitably" leaks out from the beta will hardly be indicative of the final product anyway.


To be honest, not really. I read what Beta consists of and I know you'll have to test stuff for bugs. That being true, the Beta test will showcase the combat system, Guildeves, quests/missions, and tons of other stuff. You have to test these things to check for bugs. I expect FFXIV to be chock full of glitches during the Beta phase. That doesn't change anything from my perspective. The official website barely shows anything. I'd love to see how the other main cities look. A screen shot from a Beta tester could do that. Who doesn't want to listen to a few songs by Nobuo Uematsu. I'm pumped by the music so far off the FFXIV website. Kinda reminds me of FFVI.

Quote:

Your logical fallacies are disgusting and I feel utterly dirty for having to share a forum with ignorance of this magnitude. People who make posts like yours absolutely bring down the community and don't deserve the right to participate in the discussions that make us what we are. In this thread you've set out to undermine this site and the relationship it has with the one entity it respects most despite its shortcomings. For all that people like you endlessly complain about the black-hearted evil that is SE, you do nothing to contribute to the cause of improving established communications with them and really seem to be calling for the destruction of what connection we already have. Shame on you.


You assume a lot in your post. I've only asked for our Admin team to contact SE and ask them to be more forth coming. We all know SE will keep us in the dark until launch time. That's why there is a problem and everyone including the Admins know it. You make it seem that SE has established good communications with us. Again, I'll reference the "enfeebling" resist patch. Everyone including our Admins thought SE had lost their collective minds.

Let me be perfectly clear, I'm not proposing that we shouldn't attempt to keep the NDA secret. I just don't believe its very realistic, that's all I'm saying. You making me look like the bad guy because I'm speaking up about the impossible task of enforcing the NDA is ridiculous to say the least.

Edited, Dec 17th 2009 11:55pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#26 Dec 17 2009 at 11:27 PM Rating: Decent
I would hereby like to apologise for my behavior in this thread as new information has come to light in regards to the recent ZAM stance on posting information regarding the FFXIV beta.

I have had it confirmed by an admin (who will remain nameless) that it was in fact SE who has requested that any user posted information regarding this beta be removed and the user in question banned.

I believe that if this had been stated at the outset, there would have been much less animosity directed towards ZAM and people would have been much more understanding of the situation.

Edited, Dec 18th 2009 12:37am by Miitan
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#27 Dec 17 2009 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I would hereby like to apologise for my behavior in this thread as new information has come to light in regards to the recent ZAM stance on posting information regarding the FFXIV beta.

I have had it confirmed by an admin (who will remain nameless) that it was in fact SE who has requested that any user posted information regarding this beta be removed and the user in question banned.

I believe that if this had been stated at the outset, there would have been much less animosity directed towards ZAM and people would have been much more understanding of the situation.
Wow, you could have saved all that time you took to type that by just not being an ******* in the first place. Who cares who requested it? Is it your website? No? Then don't try to run it.
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#28 Dec 17 2009 at 11:38 PM Rating: Default
TheShadowWalker wrote:
Quote:
I would hereby like to apologise for my behavior in this thread as new information has come to light in regards to the recent ZAM stance on posting information regarding the FFXIV beta.

I have had it confirmed by an admin (who will remain nameless) that it was in fact SE who has requested that any user posted information regarding this beta be removed and the user in question banned.

I believe that if this had been stated at the outset, there would have been much less animosity directed towards ZAM and people would have been much more understanding of the situation.
Wow, you could have saved all that time you took to type that by just not being an @#%^ in the first place. Who cares who requested it? Is it your website? No? Then don't try to run it.


Oh noes, it's the white knights!

They don't need you springing to their rescue either because last time I checked, it isn't your website.
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#29 Dec 18 2009 at 1:51 AM Rating: Decent
Pikko wrote:
It doesn't affect anything to say you applied, but whether you were accepted becomes something you can't disclose.

Thanks for the confirmation, Pikko.

Yes, I did apply. If I do get accepted, the only person who's going to know is my wife, and that's only because we have one computer. She's bound to find FFXIV on there sooner or later. Smiley: nod
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#30 Dec 18 2009 at 2:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Princess Miitan wrote:
Pikko wrote:
Miitan, while you may not give a crap about SE coming after you individually, you have that luxury. ZAM still has to conduct itself in a responsible, legal, business-like manner and I don't really see why you're being so callous about it.


I simply posted the truth, if that came across as callous then so be it.

I would like to know why you are, however, accusing me of being someone who will break the NDA. Stating that information will be available does not suddenly make you the perpetrator last time I checked.


Given your stance on how we're silly to deny people the right to talk about something they legally agree not to talk about, combined with your asking me in IRC if you could create a sock to talk about beta, I'd say it's fair for me to think that you feel like you have the right to break it.
#31 Dec 18 2009 at 2:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm personally not planning to break the NDA regardless of the outcome. Like another poster pointed out, someone else will though. A single person posting on youtube alone can splice together enough footage to get the word out. Eventually it will be taken down thanks to SE's lawyers, but the damage will be done.


That is not the point of this thread though. The point is for me to tell you all that if you use the ZAM website to break NDA, then we will remove that content and ban your account. And yet, you seem to be saying that if ZAM is NOT the method used to break NDA, that this makes us "dated" and obsolete?

Miitan wrote:
I have had it confirmed by an admin (who will remain nameless) that it was in fact SE who has requested that any user posted information regarding this beta be removed and the user in question banned.

I believe that if this had been stated at the outset, there would have been much less animosity directed towards ZAM and people would have been much more understanding of the situation.


Whoever this admin is that told you that either doesn't know what they're talking about or you misunderstood what they really said. I specifically said in the OP that this is our policy for ALL beta phases. I confirmed this with the ZAM President before posting to make sure it was okay for me to make this policy known. I have discussed the severity of our enforcement with someone on the Community Team, but it was an answer to an inquiry on how we plan to handle it, NOT a request on their part and compliance on ours.
#32 Dec 18 2009 at 2:20 AM Rating: Excellent
Edit: And Pikko posts clarifying a few things, thus making my comments and thoughts on the matter obsolete. >.>


Edited, Dec 18th 2009 12:27am by kappachan
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#33 Dec 18 2009 at 2:27 AM Rating: Good
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An NDA should be upheld as it as an actual binding agreement. However when you read the actual agreement document you will realize they will explain in due time things you 'can' talk about pertaining to the beta at their discretion. So although it will be an NDA, probably won't be 'quite' as strict as some of the NDAs in the past. Lets wait and see the full disclosure of the NDA before people automatically get bent out of shape surrounding it. However if it does end up being an extremely strict NDA I support the admins escapade in keeping beta information from leaking on the site.

It seems a lot of you havn't been in a closed beta before since most of you don't seem to understand the harm in releasing the info when not asked to. Closed betas are designed to "test" concepts and design with a lot of players working in tandom. There might be alot of ideas they will explore that won't neccesarily be in the final game design but they none the less want to keep close to their chest in case they want to add it later. Or it might be a system that they scrape later on, but just the thought that they 'might' add it because of testing it will hurt the image of the game before it is even released. (Like the market system could change drastically from early concept to release but if one of their tests draws huge ire from the beta crowd and it gets into the public view, the public might assume that it 'will' be in the final game stupidly or vice versa).



Edited, Dec 18th 2009 5:01am by croythegreat
#34 Dec 18 2009 at 3:45 AM Rating: Good
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I don't see what the problem is. It doesn't matter how much ZAM is "humping Squares leg". They don't want you to post anything regarding what you learn in beta here. Is it stupid? Well, that's a matter of opinion I guess.

If you want to be the guy that posts the information here and get banned, well, it's your own fault.(over 9000 proxies!)

Will there be information leakage? Of course there will.

All that the pot growing Tarutaru said is that you're gonna get bant if you do post it here. Take that as you will.
#35 Dec 18 2009 at 4:35 AM Rating: Excellent
It's a policy we have for all games that are beta tested with NDAs, so it's not a matter of us "humping SE's leg" to stay in their good graces, since it's not like we're just singling them out for this.
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#36 Dec 18 2009 at 6:26 AM Rating: Decent
Pikko wrote:
Miitan wrote:
I have had it confirmed by an admin (who will remain nameless) that it was in fact SE who has requested that any user posted information regarding this beta be removed and the user in question banned.

I believe that if this had been stated at the outset, there would have been much less animosity directed towards ZAM and people would have been much more understanding of the situation.


Whoever this admin is that told you that either doesn't know what they're talking about or you misunderstood what they really said. I specifically said in the OP that this is our policy for ALL beta phases. I confirmed this with the ZAM President before posting to make sure it was okay for me to make this policy known. I have discussed the severity of our enforcement with someone on the Community Team, but it was an answer to an inquiry on how we plan to handle it, NOT a request on their part and compliance on ours.


Then my final post on this matter is simply that all I said in the first place is that the information will be available somewhere else regardless of ZAM and that the communication between SE and ZAM is bad at best excepting in circumstances such as these it seems.

Also it seems that making comments in IRC is serious business and will be held against you despite Alla's policy on socks already being clear regardless on what they're being used for. Also please note that these jokey comments were made BEFORE this thread was created just to put things into perspective.

Edited, Dec 18th 2009 8:39am by Miitan
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#37 Dec 18 2009 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
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As an employee in the video games industry I can tell you that NDA's are taken very seriously.

It's a smarter option to just allow SE to keep their secrets than to get all fan-******-crazy and start revealing. Besides, doesn't anticipation make it all the sweeter?

Personally, I think people release too much information about their games during development. Movies too! Christ, I think I've seen all of 'Avatar' just in previews there's no need to go and see it haha.
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#38 Dec 18 2009 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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CupDeNoodles wrote:
All that the pot growing Tarutaru said is that you're gonna get bant if you do post it here.


I knew there was a reason I liked the smell of Pikko's garden so much :D
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#39 Dec 18 2009 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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I do apologize for the lengthy post and would not waste my time just for the sake of berating a single forum member, but I firmly believe that there are many like ShadowedgeFFXI who would blindly take a stance against Pikko, the ZAM network, or SE for poor reasons. I make this post in loving defense of these forums, because this topic is indeed a sensitive one which is already sparking negative emotions for the wrong reasons, and I don't want to see it turn nasty.
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I speculating that once FFXIV Beta begins, we'll find new info via word of mouth. Some of this info will be on fan sites until SE shuts them down.

No one is denying this, but you seem to be completely dodging your original post here. Let me bring it back up for you:
Quote:
I personally feel if SE was more informative in general, we wouldn't have to share info via un-official channels in the first place.

You are clearly saying that it's SE's own fault their NDA will be broken because they've failed to release some arbitrary amount of information which you believe you we are entitled to. We do prod them incessantly to give us more, and all things considered, we've gotten more info about FFXIV than has ever been released about a new Final Fantasy within the same year of its original announcement. This NDA is a legally-binding agreement you accept when becoming a beta tester, yet you're treating it like some moral issue where if only SE had treated you us better we wouldn't have to break this agreement. Please answer me this: If SE was the most benevolent company ever, deserving of only the utmost respect, would these info leaks still be inevitable?
Quote:
You make it seem as if SE is allowing us to beta test out of the goodness of their heart with no ulterior motive.

Hardly, but even if SE was only spitefully giving us a beta test because they had to, that wouldn't change the fact that it's a privilege to be selected for the process, and it doesn't nullify SE's right to impose non-disclosure on its participants. Yes, they do need our help to make FFXIV successful in the same vein as WoW, but you make it seem like SE is shooting itself in the foot for not releasing enough information to satisfy you, and that this NDA therefore deserves to be broken, even if not directly by you, because you feel entitled to that info. As an above poster pointed out quite well, the reason for the NDA is that disclosure of beta details can be just as harmful to FFXIV's success as you seem to think this holding back of game details is.
Quote:
I'd love to see how the other main cities look. A screen shot from a Beta tester could do that.

A screen shot from a beta tester would also violate the NDA. I can't get over the fact that you feel so entitled to game details that you think it's okay for beta testers to do this (even though you wouldn't do it yourself, gotta save face after all), and you're justifying it by pointing out ways in which SE has failed us (including not providing enough game details, those fiends), illogically concluding that it's okay for us to fail them.
Quote:
We all know SE will keep us in the dark until launch time. That's why there is a problem and everyone including the Admins know it. You make it seem that SE has established good communications with us.

This is just astonishing. SE is not and has not been keeping us in the dark about FFXIV, and as stated several times before, they are being more forthcoming about information than ever in the past. What's really off the wall is that you're equating your dissatisfaction with the amount of available FFXIV info to a complete communications breakdown along the lines of the enfeebling nerf issue. Hate to break it to you, but not getting your way is only a "problem" for you. More released info/screenshots/whathaveyou would not constitute a good relationship any more than a lack of said info constitutes a poor one.
Quote:
You making me look like the bad guy because I'm speaking up about the impossible task of enforcing the NDA is ridiculous to say the least.

That you think it's impossible is a testament to SE's poor communications with us. What's above all most disturbing is how you think that Allakhazam will somehow become stale and obsolete if it doesn't pander to info-gluttons like you by breaking bonds with SE and allowing illegally leaked information to flow through the boards, just because you're too impatient to wait for more. I wouldn't dare speak for Pikko or any of the ZAM network, but our ability to communicate with SE at all, despite the relationship being a work-in-progress, is not something that should be thrown away by catering to immature fans who can't wait for all that NDA-violating media to spill out; if anything's going to improve our communications with them, it's our willingness to uphold their NDA. Oh, but if we actually had good communications with them, you wouldn't have anything to complain about, so let's just resign ourselves to allowing the breakdown to fester, because it's not like sticking to SE's policy while other sites are busy spitting in its face is going to win us any points with them, subsequently improving the chances that they will more directly provide us with game info that you so desperately seek. Frankly, people who would abandon this site because of their own selfishness should really stay out, the rest of us will do just fine without them.

Edited, Dec 18th 2009 11:41am by TraumaFox
#40 Dec 18 2009 at 11:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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I was telling kappachan that I should post a half done bento on my blog, since my fans are clearly so excited about it that they wouldn't care if I hadn't put the eyes and mouth on the rice ball or added the main dish and garnishes. I can just post the completed bento six months later and it'll be all good. Smiley: nod
#41 Dec 18 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Default
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TraumaFox wrote:
I do apologize for the lengthy post and would not waste my time just for the sake of berating a single forum member, but I firmly believe that there are many like ShadowedgeFFXI who would blindly take a stance against Pikko, the ZAM network, or SE for poor reasons. I make this post in loving defense of these forums, because this topic is indeed a sensitive one which is already sparking negative emotions for the wrong reasons, and I don't want to see it turn nasty.


You sir are deluded, please seek mental help. I'm not against ZAM on this policy thing. You're jumping to conclusions lumping me in a pool with people in a specific criteria. It's not right to accuse someone of wrong doing based on a hunch.

Quote:

You are clearly saying that it's SE's own fault their NDA will be broken because they've failed to release some arbitrary amount of information which you believe you we are entitled to. We do prod them incessantly to give us more, and all things considered, we've gotten more info about FFXIV than has ever been released about a new Final Fantasy within the same year of its original announcement. Please answer me this: If SE was the most benevolent company ever, deserving of only the utmost respect, would these info leaks still be inevitable?


In a sense, it is their own fault. Their failure to communicate has often proved to be SE's undoing. Those poor SMN's waiting for their avatars still can vouch for it. Back to FFXIV, have you seen the German gameplay footage released on the official FFXIV site? Well I just checked, it's still not there. Only 2 trailers, no game play footage. Yet you can check gaming sites or Youtube and find it easy. I rest my case.

To answer your question, I think the probability is lower the more we are informed. So more info, less chance of a leak. The same goes for Hollywood movies and any other medium.

Quote:

A screen shot from a beta tester would also violate the NDA. I can't get over the fact that you feel so entitled to game details that you think it's okay for beta testers to do this (even though you wouldn't do it yourself, gotta save face after all), and you're justifying it by pointing out ways in which SE has failed us (including not providing enough game details, those fiends), illogically concluding that it's okay for us to fail them.


Like those leaked on the set pics from Transformers II and The Dark Knight hurt anything. I'm not suggesting it's right to break the NDA, only that the repercussions of a pic wouldn't do that much harm. You're putting far too much thought in this thread. The same type of a person that will leak the script for a movie on the net is going to leak the FFXIV Beta info. That's all I'm saying here. I'm sure SE is aware of their terrible communication and the savvy hackers that will blow FFXIV open on the net.

Quote:

This is just astonishing. SE is not and has not been keeping us in the dark about FFXIV, and as stated several times before, they are being more forthcoming about information than ever in the past. What's really off the wall is that you're equating your dissatisfaction with the amount of available FFXIV info to a complete communications breakdown along the lines of the enfeebling nerf issue. Hate to break it to you, but not getting your way is only a "problem" for you.


That's your opinion, a number of FFXIV fans don't agree with you myself included. The enfeebling patch issue was a huge communication failure on SE's part. It's relevant because it shows that SE only responds to us if we ***** over a long period of time. A company with good communication would have people talking to us on a monthly basis. Instead SE's reps post like once a year. We'll see what info SE releases once the Beta testing begins. If we're lucky, we might get one new class announced every month. What's next, you going to defend SE's crappy Customer Service?

Look man, you need to relax. My 1st post was worded poorly and you jumped on me over it. Now you're implying I'm some jerk that will spread this info around. I support the decision to prevent NDA info from being posted here. That's all that needs to be said.



Edited, Dec 18th 2009 5:09pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#42 Dec 18 2009 at 5:58 PM Rating: Default
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Seriously, I support ShadowEdgeFFXI and everything he has said. A lot of people in these forums probably agree too, but are too afraid to admit it.

I think all the FFXI fanbase wants is more information about FFXIV, and it may be that the only way to get it, is through leaks from the Beta because SE is so stringent on hiding information.

The kind of information people want is the cool stuff. We want to see awesome graphics, new weapons, new monsters, how skill chains will work etc. It's not like we're interested in finding out some major bug that makes SE look bad. I feel like as long as people leak information in good taste, and to show how awesome the game is going to be, why should SE get annoyed?

Obviously it is breaking the NDA to leak any information and the ZAM forums cannot condone such behavior.

At this point, all I am saying is, if you get in the Beta, use an image editing tool to blur out identifying information and anonymously post images in good taste to imageshack. At the same time realize that you are breaking the NDA, but you are also making a lot of people happy by letting the fanbase get a glimpse of what FFXIV will be like.

Edited, Dec 18th 2009 4:03pm by Cyiode

Edited, Dec 18th 2009 4:05pm by Cyiode
#43 Dec 18 2009 at 6:49 PM Rating: Default
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I don't really have anything to say about the beta, NDA, or Zam's position; however, after reading this thread, I feel that some people (e.g., Traumafox) just need to calm the **** down.

The only people who seem to be unreasonable are the one's offering a scathing shaming to anyone who brings up the futility of enforcing the NDA. None of these people are even saying that they'll break the NDA, and **** it, a lot of you who are acting all high and holy will be among the first to excitedly blab to someone you know and break the NDA. Whether or not you agree with it, it's a perfectly legitimate argument that not enforcing the NDA on this site will yield higher traffic for the site, and/or that it will be better for SE or the customers. It's an argument completely removed from a person's character or their willingness to break the NDA. Now, just because an argument is legitimate doesn't make it right, but that is neither here nor there.

Personally? Don't have a very strong opinion on the matter, so sue me. I won't be breaking the NDA because I won't need to. What I think doesn't really matter because other people will break the NDA regardless. If by some miracle it didn't get out and it hinged entirely on me, I still wouldn't, but because I'm lazy, not because I think there's anything particularly virtuous about keeping secrets about a video game.

My only point is that there was and still is no reason for this thread to turn into a witch hunt whatsoever. And thus far none of the people who have been subdefaulted seem to have earned it.
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#44 Dec 18 2009 at 8:12 PM Rating: Good
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See Kachi, the thing is the thread wasn't about asking people whether or not they think the NDA should be enforced. It's merely Pikko saying, break it and be banned. There's absolutely no reason to argue against it, and even if there were, the point would be moot. It's SE's game, it's SE's beta. If zam.com wants to abide by SE's rules I see absolutely no reason why they should be attacked for it (ala "humping SE's leg"). If I went into a forum supporting some troops and said "why fight it, it's pointless," that would be incredibly dumb. The futility of the action has nothing to do with the reasoning behind taking that action. Do the admins here think information will leak? I'm sure. Does that mean they should make no effort to try to stem it, especially when she helps run a site that would be an excellent conduit for such material? That's up to them.
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#45 Dec 18 2009 at 8:34 PM Rating: Default
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I don't see it that way. This site is supported by its users, and as a result it is subject to feedback of all kinds regarding its practices. The administrators don't have to agree with it, or for that matter even allow dissenting opinions, but no one is breaking any rules here, and this is a perfectly appropriate thread for discussing any comments and criticisms of this particular site policy. Further, the site can defend and enforce its stance without going so far as to say, "never, and it will never be taken into consideration." Never say never, and all that. At the very least, there's no need in trying to silence people for voicing their opinion on the decision. By all means disagree with them, but it's gone a bit beyond that.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#46 Dec 18 2009 at 9:31 PM Rating: Excellent
We understand and accept that voicing your opinion on something this significant is important to all of you. However, this is a very strict policy that's been active well before XIV was ever announced, and it's not something that we're going to change any time soon. NDA's are very serious for the gaming companies, and because of that, we take it very seriously as well.

It's not that we don't want you to voice your opinion on the NDA and all, it's just that the overall feel that some people are conveying is that because it is likely going to be leaked anyway, ZAM shouldn't bother being so strict for anyone that leaks anything here. If another site wants to ignore or not take the NDA seriously then that's their problem, but we're not other sites.

Edited, Dec 18th 2009 10:39pm by Vlorsutes
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#47 Dec 18 2009 at 10:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I think the point being made was that it's this site's problem, too, because other sites will invariably show no regard for the NDA, and they will as a result be getting the traffic that would otherwise be directed here. I don't know how far your policy goes (e.g., can people link to other places that break the NDA? Can they repeat things that others who broke the NDA have said, even if they aren't bound by the NDA themselves?), but it's potentially burdensome to the users who would like to discuss the game at a place that thrives on being a hub for discussing the game.

I know that if I'm not in the beta, I'll still want to know what it's like, even if that info comes from sources who are breaking their NDA. If that were the case, I'd rather be able to get that information here.

Note that I am in no way saying that I think you shouldn't support the NDA, just saying that from an objective perspective, it's a legitimate argument probably worthy of consideration. It's not for me to decide what is in the best interest of the website, because I'm not privy to enough information to make that judgment. Plus, I don't really care what you do.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#48 Dec 18 2009 at 11:11 PM Rating: Excellent
Even if they'd get more traffic from disregarding the NDA and posting beta content, they'd be risking legal action being taken against them. So their traffic would be very short lived, since at the very least they'd be issued a C & D to remove the contest.

As for your question about linking, it'd be just as bad as if you posted the content yourself and you'd be punished accordingly.
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#49 Dec 18 2009 at 11:40 PM Rating: Default
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Again, that goes to things that I don't really know/care about. I didn't really intend to play devil's advocate. It's just a bad habit.

I am curious now to know to what extent you're liable for users posting that kind of content on your site, though. I know that there are certain things you're legally required to moderate, but isn't that just illegal content? I can't imagine that you're obligated to ensure that others uphold their own contractual obligations, much less to prohibit linking to or discussion of that content, but I assume that's a courtesy you extend to the industry.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#50 Dec 18 2009 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Vlorsutes, there is still a gray area that Kachi alluded to that needs to be considered. What if a topic is started here that discusses something (with no pictures or videos) that could have only been figured out from people who play the Beta. This is going to be a highly likely occurrence.

For example, what if someone starts a topic titled "Info about Skillchains". Suppose no images and no videos are being posted, just discussion- it may be difficult to determine what it coming as leaked info from the Beta, and what might be information that someone was able to dig up from authorized sources.

Another situation is if person A (who plays the Beta) leaks the information to person B, and then person B posts it here as a "rumor". Does person B deserve to get their account banned even if he/she didn't even participate in the Beta?

Edited, Dec 18th 2009 9:53pm by Cyiode
#51 Dec 19 2009 at 12:15 AM Rating: Excellent
Any information, regardless of being a rumor or something directly stated as being from the beta will be treated the same (as long as it's obvious that it was serious, and not something like "OMG, Barack Obama makes an appearance in the beta!", and anyone that posts it, regardless if they're playing the beta or not, will still be punished the same. Our policy doesn't stipulate that only those playing the beta are the only ones that can't talk about it. It's simply that anyone that releases info about the beta in some manner will be banned. Likewise, even if no images or videos are posted, as long as the discussion pertains to information derived from beta play (something like "Pugilist is a great class to play due to so and so reasons") then they'll still be banned.
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