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Notice about breaking NDAFollow

#52 Dec 19 2009 at 3:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
At the very least, there's no need in trying to silence people for voicing their opinion on the decision. By all means disagree with them, but it's gone a bit beyond that.


FYI, it's not the admins that are sub-defaulting and "silencing" people for their opinions.
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#53 Dec 19 2009 at 3:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Well I think the point being made was that it's this site's problem, too, because other sites will invariably show no regard for the NDA, and they will as a result be getting the traffic that would otherwise be directed here. I don't know how far your policy goes (e.g., can people link to other places that break the NDA? Can they repeat things that others who broke the NDA have said, even if they aren't bound by the NDA themselves?), but it's potentially burdensome to the users who would like to discuss the game at a place that thrives on being a hub for discussing the game.

I know that if I'm not in the beta, I'll still want to know what it's like, even if that info comes from sources who are breaking their NDA. If that were the case, I'd rather be able to get that information here.

Note that I am in no way saying that I think you shouldn't support the NDA, just saying that from an objective perspective, it's a legitimate argument probably worthy of consideration. It's not for me to decide what is in the best interest of the website, because I'm not privy to enough information to make that judgment. Plus, I don't really care what you do.


IMO, that's thinking on too small a scale. Say the leak happens on YouTube. So YT gets hits, so what? They'll yank that thing at SE's request (if they cared) so fast it probably won't get much exposure. Say it's screenshots on ImageShack, are people going to keep going to ImageShack for FFXIV info once beta is over? Seriously doubt it. I suppose someone could start a popular beta leakage blog, but I would think eventually it'd get shut down.

With a secure relationship with SE, we have the potential for many more hits than flareups of inappropriate beta leakage would provide.
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#54 Dec 19 2009 at 9:31 AM Rating: Default
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FYI, it's not the admins that are sub-defaulting and "silencing" people for their opinions.


Obviously I'm aware of that. The admins were not the target of my criticism, although they didn't exactly help matters either.

In response to the rest, I don't really want to talk about it; however, people are used to that sort of thing by now, and copies of the data are made by multiple people as soon as they go up. Hundreds or thousands of people are going to exchange beta information through private channels, and when that many have access to it, "rumors" will inevitably go public in multiple places. Whatever SE's legal recourse will be, it won't be enough.

Again, you guys do whatever, and if you think the site will get more traffic than less, I'm not going to argue. But I do think it's naive to think that it will curtail anything other than the number of people who accidentally stumble over leaked information.

I guess I'm just not sure whether to believe that you really believe what you're saying, is what I'm saying.
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#55 Dec 20 2009 at 12:12 AM Rating: Excellent
By honoring the terms of the NDA, we'll have a better relationship with SE -- far better -- than sites that choose not to honor it.

So yes, in the long run, we will be granted more privileged info and, yes, more traffic.
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#56 Dec 20 2009 at 3:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I dont see what the big deal is. SE will undoubtedly have their own beta forums where beta players can talk to each other and give feedback and report bugs. If you get in talk about the beta there.

**edit** then again this is SE and they do things differently.FFXI was one of the few mmos that didn't have its own official forum.

Edited, Dec 20th 2009 4:11am by mezlabor
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#57 Dec 20 2009 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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It did eventually.
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#58 Dec 20 2009 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
The information will find it's way to the public regardless of this. :P

Unless SE lucked out and signed on a whole bunch of tight-mouths.
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#59 Dec 20 2009 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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The information will find it's way to the public regardless of this. :P

Unless SE lucked out and signed on a whole bunch of tight-mouths.
Wow, nice job reading the first post in the thread, then commenting. Think one of the 55 other replies might have said something similar and incited a big discussion about it?
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and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#60 Dec 20 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
I've got no love lost for SE. I signed up for the beta not out of any altruistic intention of helping them work out bugs, but because it's their second FF MMO and before I drop my hard earned cash for a retail box I want to get a feel for the game. If the game sucks, it wouldn't be out of respect for SE that I'd keep my mouth shut about it. It would be because of an agreement that I made. I agreed when I signed up for the beta not to leak any information about...well...anything to do with the game. No blogs, no screenshots, no answering questions in forums posted by people who didn't get into the beta.

That also means that as a beta tester, in exchange for a sneak peak at the game so that I can decide whether or not SE got it right this time and it's worth spending money on, feedback on game systems and bug reporting are part of the package. Again, not because I have any overwhelming interest in being a good little tester, but because I made an agreement when I applied for a spot in the beta. SE has offered me something and they have asked for something in return. I have no business taking what they're offering if I'm not prepared to honor their request.

There's a disturbing trend in North American society (that is by no means new) that has people thinking it's okay to tell someone what they want to hear and play lipservice to agreements made and then back out of their end of the agreement at will because meh, who cares right? Yaya, dad said I could borrow the car if I promised to top up the gas tank before I brought it home but I'm done with the car now and gas is expensive so why bother? I got what I wanted out of the deal so pfffft on the rest of the agreement.

Alla is (and as long as I've been here, has always been) more than just discussion forums. It's a place for news and information about the games we play and it serves the community as a whole to preserve good relationships with the game developers. You think information is hard to come by now? Imagine what this site will be like if Sundi et al summarily decline interview requests from ZAM staffers because they allowed these forums to be a rampant source for leaked beta info.

Think long term. The game will be released when the game is released and it will happen with or without leaked beta info. The question is, do you want to sacrifice the community's relationship post-release for the sake of satisfying idle curiousity during the beta?

You're an idiot if you seriously think that would be a good idea.
#61 Dec 20 2009 at 7:56 PM Rating: Good
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There's nothing in the OP that should come as any surprise to anyone with a certain level of maturity but here we are. I guess this is what happens when children (and those who act like them) are made to deal with adult concepts like contracts and non-disclosure agreements. Still stuck in that "system bad" mentality; trying to fight a big bad monster that's really not so bad. Fun to watch though.

Here's hoping S-E has some way to match screen names to beta invitations; more room for those of us with the ability to handle just a tiny bit of responsibility.

Edited, Dec 20th 2009 9:01pm by Redyoshi
#62 Dec 20 2009 at 11:50 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
By honoring the terms of the NDA, we'll have a better relationship with SE -- far better -- than sites that choose not to honor it.

So yes, in the long run, we will be granted more privileged info and, yes, more traffic.


I'm sorta curious how you can make such a baseless assumption. SE has never been forthcoming with us in FFXI, what makes you so certain public relations will suddenly change/improve for FFXIV? In theory, your logic makes sense, but arguing theory isn't very logical especially when SE continues to ignore community sites for the most part. Don't let those pumpkin carving plugs on the server message go to your head Admins. If SE is serious about transparency and improving public relations, we'll all see it. Until then Thayos, you're just wishful thinking.

We've seen 3 leaked pics from the EU site and a German game play video SE refuses to post on the official site. It sure looks like business as usual to me so far. I'm wishful for change, but I won't let it blind my judgment.

Lastly, I think to see some real opinions from our Admins. I'm growing tired of these "political correct" responses. It almost feels like Pikko and co. are GM's in disguise on the SE payroll.

That doesn't mean I support denouncing the NDA regardless of SE's failures. I truly believe info will leak, hopefully from a JP tester so we can all point the finger at them. Nobody in this thread is suggesting they will compromise the NDA, yet some people like to draw their own conclusions. The bottom line is you'll get banned for doing it here. Last I checked, you were innocent until proven guilty.



Edited, Dec 20th 2009 11:56pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#63 Dec 21 2009 at 1:03 AM Rating: Good
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Thayos wrote:
By honoring the terms of the NDA, we'll have a better relationship with SE -- far better -- than sites that choose not to honor it.

So yes, in the long run, we will be granted more privileged info and, yes, more traffic.


I'm sorta curious how you can make such a baseless assumption. SE has never been forthcoming with us in FFXI, what makes you so certain public relations will suddenly change/improve for FFXIV? In theory, your logic makes sense, but arguing theory isn't very logical especially when SE continues to ignore community sites for the most part. Don't let those pumpkin carving plugs on the server message go to your head Admins. If SE is serious about transparency and improving public relations, we'll all see it. Until then Thayos, you're just wishful thinking.


You're assumption about baseless assumptions is baseless. It's a long standing tradition in any form of public media that if you bite the hand that feeds, it stops feeding. Political journalists will tell you this. You may be dissatisfied with the pace and scope of information SE releases about FFXIV or FFXI or anything else and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you, but that doesn't change the reality.

An NDA is an NDA and you can't claim to be involved in a collaborative process with someone if you refuse to collaborate. ZAM permitting leaked beta info to be a common thing (which is what it would be if it wasn't dealt with decisively) would be the antithesis of collaboration.

Integrity includes doing the right thing even if you're not happy with what the other guy is doing. You may be content to find ways and means to undermine your won integrity whilst hiding behind rational justifications, but not everyone is so shaky in the character department.

There's not really much to argue on the issue...if you're ****** at SE over something, direct your angst towards them. The admins here have done nothing to peak your ire.
#64 Dec 21 2009 at 1:57 AM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:

Integrity includes doing the right thing even if you're not happy with what the other guy is doing. You may be content to find ways and means to undermine your won integrity whilst hiding behind rational justifications, but not everyone is so shaky in the character department.

There's not really much to argue on the issue...if you're ****** at SE over something, direct your angst towards them. The admins here have done nothing to peak your ire.


Nobody is hiding behind rational justifications in this thread so your point is moot. Your slanderous allegations to discredit someone's own integrity is very immature. It's not as if someone posted a leaked screen shot from the Beta test and were banned for it while the rest of us are defending them. The Admins satisfied me by disclosing that all NDA's are regarded in the same way. It simply wasn't a matter of ZAM playing favorites which is fine with me.

My response to Thayos was in response of his biased belief that SE would reward ZAM with exclusives. That's wishful thinking, nothing more. I've even defended SE far longer than most people. The bottom line is I don't want to hear Thayos's propaganda. What's wrong with asking for some objectivity? If the Admins. want to be a corporate puppet, I'm going to call them out on it.

I don't appreciate the blatant attack on my integrity implied or otherwise. In the future, if you cannot comprehend my post, ask for a simplified transcript. I don't cheat, lie, or steal. I was merely playing devil's advocate in my own way, that's all.


Edited, Dec 21st 2009 2:30am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#65 Dec 21 2009 at 4:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Shadowedge is crazy!!!

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my work here is done.
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#66 Dec 21 2009 at 4:22 AM Rating: Good
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I thought that most of the intial responses to this topic were pretty accurate, including Pikko's.

1. Don't break the NDA if you can possibly restrain your fingers from clicking the mouse.

2. Don't post it on any official forums if you cannot restrain yourself.

3. Remind yourself that despite the fact most current NDAs are mild comparatively, there are still legal clauses in there which can send down evil lawyer devils.

4. Enjoy being one of the 5% selected (or whatever actual miniscule percentage) to participate in a highly anticipated MMO.

5. Don't forget that in most cases, early feedback from non-beta testers only serves to hurt the process, and consequently delay game day #1.

Good luck to all who get in (and I'm jealous if I don't)!
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#67 Dec 21 2009 at 1:02 PM Rating: Excellent
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Your slanderous allegations to discredit someone's own integrity is very immature. It's not as if someone posted a leaked screen shot from the Beta test and were banned for it while the rest of us are defending them.


Not unlike your slanderous allegations that the admins here are both incompetent and ignorant about what is required of them with regards to NDAs for games in beta in conjunction with your accusations that their clarification around expectations for posters here stemmed from "baseless assumptions."

You could have simply taken their word for it or, better yet, had a clue of your own and not needed clarification, much less clarification on the heels of your cynical outburst.

Based on what you've said, it's okay for you to insinuate and accuse the admins in a way that, if your accusations were correct, would reflect poorly upon them, but having the same thing done to you is cause for a QQ meltdown. At least we have an understanding of the rules of engagement, as it were.

Hypocrite.
#68 Dec 21 2009 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Nobody is hiding behind rational justifications in this thread so your point is moot. Your slanderous allegations to discredit someone's own integrity is very immature. It's not as if someone posted a leaked screen shot from the Beta test and were banned for it while the rest of us are defending them. The Admins satisfied me by disclosing that all NDA's are regarded in the same way. It simply wasn't a matter of ZAM playing favorites which is fine with me.

My response to Thayos was in response of his biased belief that SE would reward ZAM with exclusives. That's wishful thinking, nothing more. I've even defended SE far longer than most people. The bottom line is I don't want to hear Thayos's propaganda. What's wrong with asking for some objectivity? If the Admins. want to be a corporate puppet, I'm going to call them out on it.

I don't appreciate the blatant attack on my integrity implied or otherwise. In the future, if you cannot comprehend my post, ask for a simplified transcript. I don't cheat, lie, or steal. I was merely playing devil's advocate in my own way, that's all.
*slowly waves hand*
This isn't the thread you're looking for...
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I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#69 Dec 21 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
We've seen 3 leaked pics from the EU site and a German game play video SE refuses to post on the official site. It sure looks like business as usual to me so far. I'm wishful for change, but I won't let it blind my judgment.


Ok so, I'm assuming you meant to say that SE "refuses" to post it on the official NA site? Or did you think that the leaked shots were a non-official XIV site? I attribute this to the same thing as the lost codex pages: whoever runs the official NA site is just not that good at it, not that they "refuse" to post it.

So the only reason you respect our decision to uphold NDA is because we do it for all games, not because it upholds our media relations? I find that rather silly because the whole reason that's our policy is BECAUSE we want to uphold our media relationships, not just with Square Enix. This "pumpkin headed admin" finds it insulting that you think all we are is an SE propaganda distributor and it ****** me off that people like you are lumped in with the entire community that I work diligently for.
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#70 Dec 21 2009 at 3:59 PM Rating: Default
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Pikko wrote:

Ok so, I'm assuming you meant to say that SE "refuses" to post it on the official NA site? Or did you think that the leaked shots were a non-official XIV site? I attribute this to the same thing as the lost codex pages: whoever runs the official NA site is just not that good at it, not that they "refuse" to post it.


I think that someone on the EU site made an oops and probably was fired shortly after. It was removed for a reason. I think your observation of the official sites is flawed too. It's obvious the reason why those pics and video aren't posted is because SE doesn't want it shown. For example, the video looks like alpha footage. We don't know for sure Pikko, but considering SE's track record, it's a reasonable assumption.

pikko wrote:

So the only reason you respect our decision to uphold NDA is because we do it for all games, not because it upholds our media relations? I find that rather silly because the whole reason that's our policy is BECAUSE we want to uphold our media relationships, not just with Square Enix. This "pumpkin headed admin" finds it insulting that you think all we are is an SE propaganda distributor and it ****** me off that people like you are lumped in with the entire community that I work diligently for.


I just said I felt better knowing that this rule was in effect for all NDA's AND it wasn't a case of being a corporate puppet.




Edited, Dec 21st 2009 4:32pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#71 Dec 21 2009 at 4:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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And yet you still call us corporate puppets. Propaganda distributors. GMs in disguise.

Quote:
It's obvious the reason why those pics and video aren't posted is because SE doesn't want it shown.


IMO, that should be "doesn't want it shown YET". If it went up on the EU site, they obviously had to do some kind of web work on it, which meant it was intended to be released, just not on only one site and probably not yet. I doubt that person got fired over it.
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#72 Dec 21 2009 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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I don't see what all the fuss is about. Betas always have NDAS attached to them this is nothing new or sneaky that SE cooked up to hide their game from us. Media outlets like this one Tenton, Mmorpg.com, Massively usually don't Officially support the leaking of beta footage or info on their forums. Some sites are stricter about it then others but none of them will officially endorse it.

Edited, Dec 21st 2009 7:36pm by mezlabor
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#73 Dec 21 2009 at 5:53 PM Rating: Default
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You're not very objective, that's the problem. If you want to change my mind and the opinion of others, learn to be objective. I'm going to give you a chance to do just that.

Pikko, do you believe SE will play a larger role with our community sites by the launch of FFXIV? Do you think ZAM will have exclusives? IE... Classes, contests, interviews, anything. If so, will their Japanese fan base still have preferential treatment or will FFXIV be 100% international? Should "JP Midnight" be abolished in FFXI and never implemented into FFXIV? Should PS2 support be dropped for FFXI? Are you disappointed with the lalafel so far?

Quote:
IMO, that should be "doesn't want it shown YET". If it went up on the EU site, they obviously had to do some kind of web work on it, which meant it was intended to be released, just not on only one site and probably not yet. I doubt that person got fired over it.


It's important to point out though how easy 3 "leaked" pics swarmed the community sites. Now just imagine if that was a Beta leak. I'm almost positive the EU site operator was fired for being incompetent. It doesn't matter if the info was intended to be released later. If a simple screen shot from a Beta test can "ruin" the game, I'd say SE takes this infraction very seriously.
#74 Dec 21 2009 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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Vorkosigan wrote:
If I sign an agreement to keep something confidential, I'm on my honor to do so. This seems to be a foreign concept, keeping your word about something you agreed to?

I'm sort of paraphrasing my favorite author (Lois McMaster Bujold who wrote the Vorkosigan series, can't find the actual quote) but "reputation is what other people know of you, honor is what you know about yourself."
I try to look in the mirror most days.


AureliusSir wrote:
There's a disturbing trend in North American society (that is by no means new) that has people thinking it's okay to tell someone what they want to hear and play lipservice to agreements made and then back out of their end of the agreement at will because meh, who cares right? Yaya, dad said I could borrow the car if I promised to top up the gas tank before I brought it home but I'm done with the car now and gas is expensive so why bother? I got what I wanted out of the deal so pfffft on the rest of the agreement.


For the record, I respect Zam's policy and their reasoning for it. But this kind of talk bugs me.

Promises are for people. Contracts are for corporations. There's a world of difference between them.

You don't give your word to a corporation, you sign a contract. A contract simply means that you agree to certain obligations and restrictions in exchange for a particular compensation or service. When one party violates the contract, they haven't dishonored themselves, they have simply forfeited their claim to what the other party was offering. Depending on the terms of the contract, they may also face additional penalties.

Honor and ethics don't enter into it. To say otherwise is as ridiculous as saying that it's dishonorable to quit your white collar job, or to cancel your cell phone contract. "But you gave us your word you would pay us for three years!"

You break the contract, you accept the consequences. In this case, as far as I could grasp from the agreement, that means being kicked out of the beta. But don't try to tell me it's some kind of stain on your honor.
#75 Dec 21 2009 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Shadow, Pikko and Aur, you guys are all arguing moot points.

People will behave how they will behave. Hopefully folks will be persuaded by the suggestion not to break NDA (imo).

In short, who cares bruvs! Have a beer and hum the fancy tune on the ffxiv site until the **** comes out :)
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#76 Dec 21 2009 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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You break the contract, you accept the consequences. In this case, as far as I could grasp from the agreement, that means being kicked out of the beta. But don't try to tell me it's some kind of stain on your honor.


Ah, but it is. Like I said, honor is what I know about myself. If I agree to the terms and conditions of the beta, and I willfully break the promise that I make, it is my honor. Just like cheating on tests, wives, or stealing from the job..it's a promise broken.

This is what I got for reading fictional stories since I was a kid, with knights, dragons, and heroes out to save the day. A sense of personal standards and rules which seem to be really outdated in this day and age.
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#77 Dec 21 2009 at 6:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
You're not very objective, that's the problem. If you want to change my mind and the opinion of others, learn to be objective. I'm going to give you a chance to do just that.

Pikko, do you believe SE will play a larger role with our community sites by the launch of FFXIV? Do you think ZAM will have exclusives? IE... Classes, contests, interviews, anything. If so, will their Japanese fan base still have preferential treatment or will FFXIV be 100% international? Should "JP Midnight" be abolished in FFXI and never implemented into FFXIV? Should PS2 support be dropped for FFXI? Are you disappointed with the lalafel so far?

Quote:
IMO, that should be "doesn't want it shown YET". If it went up on the EU site, they obviously had to do some kind of web work on it, which meant it was intended to be released, just not on only one site and probably not yet. I doubt that person got fired over it.


It's important to point out though how easy 3 "leaked" pics swarmed the community sites. Now just imagine if that was a Beta leak. I'm almost positive the EU site operator was fired for being incompetent. It doesn't matter if the info was intended to be released later. If a simple screen shot from a Beta test can "ruin" the game, I'd say SE takes this infraction very seriously.


Yes, I do feel they will play a larger role, but I don't think they'll ever play a large enough role to satisfy you. I do think we will have contests and interviews. Haven't we provided them to you in the past? Or was our pumpkin carving contest (with an exclusive in-game item, provided to a community site for the first time ever) and egg decorating contest too immaterial for you to count them? Were our Fan Fest and Premier Site Summit reports and interviews not "exclusive" enough for you? As for the rest of your questions, what the heck do those have to do with objectivity?

You're acting like this was an illegally posted shot from a third party source when really, it was posted on one of the three official FFXIV sites, making it a mistake, not a breach of an agreement. I'd even go so far as to say this could be their first attempt at viral marketing.

Edited, Dec 21st 2009 2:42pm by Pikko
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#78 Dec 21 2009 at 8:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Ah, but it is. Like I said, honor is what I know about myself. If I agree to the terms and conditions of the beta, and I willfully break the promise that I make, it is my honor. Just like cheating on tests, wives, or stealing from the job..it's a promise broken.

What about the other examples, then? Would you beat yourself up over breaking your cellphone contract?
#79 Dec 21 2009 at 9:25 PM Rating: Decent
Borkachev wrote:
For the record, I respect Zam's policy and their reasoning for it. But this kind of talk bugs me.

Promises are for people. Contracts are for corporations. There's a world of difference between them.

You don't give your word to a corporation, you sign a contract. A contract simply means that you agree to certain obligations and restrictions in exchange for a particular compensation or service. When one party violates the contract, they haven't dishonored themselves, they have simply forfeited their claim to what the other party was offering. Depending on the terms of the contract, they may also face additional penalties.

Honor and ethics don't enter into it. To say otherwise is as ridiculous as saying that it's dishonorable to quit your white collar job, or to cancel your cell phone contract. "But you gave us your word you would pay us for three years!"

You break the contract, you accept the consequences. In this case, as far as I could grasp from the agreement, that means being kicked out of the beta. But don't try to tell me it's some kind of stain on your honor.


Thank you for illustrating my point.
#80 Dec 21 2009 at 9:27 PM Rating: Default
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
You're not very objective, that's the problem.


Don't make Pikko angry.

You wouldn't like her when she's angry.
#81 Dec 21 2009 at 9:54 PM Rating: Decent
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So... has anyone gotten into the beta from the recent sign ups?

Also: what happened to allakhazam? What is this zam insanity.
#82 Dec 21 2009 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Would you beat yourself up over breaking your cellphone contract?


Not when I have to pay a hefty penalty to do it. :P There's a price to pay there, see that?

Keeping your promises, doing the right thing, not breaking your word when you agreed to do so is the point.
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#83 Dec 22 2009 at 12:26 AM Rating: Good
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Man this is a mixed bag of nuts. I can see validity in both sides of the argument here. I have been posting here or lurking for years. Redyne was in my LS. Pikko you may remember her you and her pretty much laid the groundwork for gardening info on Alla. Which in turn spawned much more information following suit.

The sole success of FFXI and this site is due completely to its fanbase. I have absolutely no intention of breaking NDA if chosen. But it is wishful thinking that SE will somehow drive traffic here over a site that regards the NDA as trash.

Some of us have contributed tons of information to this site over the years, this brings people to this site. Information is what we seek even in the form of arguments. And the one with the goods gets the numbers.

The NDA to me is as good as any promise I make. I keep it unless it will cause harm to another. If SE releases blatant lies like Aion's NA Dev team did I will willingly call them on it. I will of course make all efforts to contact SE to correct poorly comunicated information or mistakes. But to tell hundreds of thousands the PvP is optional then to discover there is no way to level most of the climb without being subjected to open PvP is fraud.

I served in the military I honored my commitment and followed orders. But we also were required to disobey unlawful or immoral orders. I can distinguish between a good contract which in good faith will be honored and one that I will not. Any contract written or otherwise should be treated this way by any reasonable adult.

Pikko I respect your stance, and the policy you are sticking by. I believe being respectful of business relationships is not only ethical but good practice. And wished more saw this way as well.

Yeah some rogue sights may pick up temporary numbers but when SE gives exclusive information to those that honored the NDA, the temp spike will die as fast as our internet attention (measured in milliseconds).
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#84 Dec 22 2009 at 2:48 AM Rating: Default
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Gmanga wrote:

Yeah some rogue sights may pick up temporary numbers but when SE gives exclusive information to those that honored the NDA, the temp spike will die as fast as our internet attention (measured in milliseconds).


There is no proof to back up such a claim. That's like suggesting if I do something nice for this person, they will repay the favor someday. It doesn't always work out that way. Nobody in this entire thread is planning to break the NDA, yet some people continue to post to that conclusion.

The bottom line is some community sites will be more relaxed towards the NDA. For example in ZAM, you get busted for even talking about it. Some sites might only enforce no pics or game play footage. Regardless, when the smoke clears, nothing will change. Those community sites that defended the NDA to the letter shouldn't expect any specialized treatment or exclusives from SE. It's not impossible, but the odds are so low you couldn't find any broker in all of Vegas to take that bet. Business will go on as usual once the Beta phase is compete. It's illogical to think a company will change their PR policy because you respected their NDA clause. Because after all, we were instructed to follow it in the first place.

Again I'm not suggesting to disregard the NDA, only that it's not a catalysis for inspiring change within SE itself. The only thing SE seems to understand is their own ego and money.


Edited, Dec 22nd 2009 2:56am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#86 Dec 22 2009 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
There is no proof to back up such a claim. That's like suggesting if I do something nice for this person, they will repay the favor someday. It doesn't always work out that way. Nobody in this entire thread is planning to break the NDA, yet some people continue to post to that conclusion.


SE doing favors to alla, doesn't mean they give you a reacharound. Lower your expectations a little.
I really think you just need to pay more attention:

Pikko wrote:
Yes, I do feel they will play a larger role, but I don't think they'll ever play a large enough role to satisfy you. I do think we will have contests and interviews. Haven't we provided them to you in the past? Or was our pumpkin carving contest (with an exclusive in-game item, provided to a community site for the first time ever) and egg decorating contest too immaterial for you to count them? Were our Fan Fest and Premier Site Summit reports and interviews not "exclusive" enough for you?


Edited, Dec 22nd 2009 10:33am by TheShadowWalker
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#87 Dec 22 2009 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Over the course of the last (nearly) 7 years I've been consistently visiting not only this site, but other Zam sites, I've either seen or even participated in handouts & freebies due to Zam's good relations with developers. From beta access for AddOn developing in WoW, to general beta access for new games...it baffles me how anyone would argue this point, regardless of the developer in question.

If you want the perks to exist, play by the rules. It's a very very simple concept. No one is saying SE is going to do anyone ANY favors in the coming months regarding FFXIV, nor is there any guarantee that SE or any other developer would for any upcoming titles. However...you won't ever find out if you break not only the rules of this site, but step on the developers toes while you're doing it.

Smiley: disappointed

Yet another Admin post that has gone quite a bit farther than it should have. Pikko's reiterating a site policy...it's as simple as that.
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#88 Dec 22 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
An NDA is a standard legally binding document. By accepting this, you are therefore exposing yourself to legal challenges by lawyers of the companies you've accepted it with. It seems a few kids here seem to not like the fact that when they signed up for the beta, they accepted the Non-Disclosure Agreement. Non-Disclosure means you do not tell anyone about whether you were accepted in to the programme, your experiences, or anything else that the terms mentioned. Breaking the NDA will expose you to all manner of legalities and SE are within their right to do whatever is in their power to silence you or minimize any information getting out. This includes terminating your acceptance in to the beta programme.

It's a site policy. It doesn't just apply to ZAM's FFXI/FFXIV portals, it applies to ALL beta programmes of all games ZAM is involved with. Thayos' interview with Nobuo Uematsu would never have happened for starters, let alone any additional information that ZAM has been able to announce exclusively.

The guys on ZAM work extremely hard to get you any scrap of information they get from Square and they deserve better than this. Contest the NDA, and you pretty much don't deserve the privilege to be able to be a part of the beta.

Privilege, because being a closed beta tester is exactly that. A privilege, not a right. Come on guys, lets put it to rest now. As far as I'm concerned, termination of your ZAM account is nothing compared to what SE can do to you in order to silence you. I for one plan on fully co-operating with the agreement I accepted.
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#89 Dec 22 2009 at 2:24 PM Rating: Default
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CardareAnbraxas the Wise wrote:
It seems a few kids here seem to not like the fact that when they signed up for the beta, they accepted the Non-Disclosure Agreement.


Care to clarify who the "kids" you're talking about are? I know it can't be me because I haven't signed up for Beta.

Quote:

It's a site policy. It doesn't just apply to ZAM's FFXI/FFXIV portals, it applies to ALL beta programmes of all games ZAM is involved with.


I know the policy now and knowing is half the battle.

Quote:

The guys on ZAM work extremely hard to get you any scrap of information they get from Square and they deserve better than this. Contest the NDA, and you pretty much don't deserve the privilege to be able to be a part of the beta.


I agree, you shouldn't be contesting the NDA if you plan on testing FFXIV. You should honor your word, I always do.

Quote:

Privilege, because being a closed beta tester is exactly that. A privilege, not a right. Come on guys, lets put it to rest now. As far as I'm concerned, termination of your ZAM account is nothing compared to what SE can do to you in order to silence you. I for one plan on fully co-operating with the agreement I accepted.


Amen, now let's drop this.
#90 Dec 22 2009 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
If we want more communication with SE, then we must hold up our end of the relationship, as well.
I thought it was against the rules to spread lies on behalf of SE.
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#91 Dec 23 2009 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
By honoring the terms of the NDA, we'll have a better relationship with SE -- far better -- than sites that choose not to honor it.

So yes, in the long run, we will be granted more privileged info and, yes, more traffic.


My understanding is that SE has not asked you to help enforce it, and may not expect you to at all, but correct me if I'm wrong. I guess I just don't understand exactly what would make you think that you'll be granted more privileged info with this decision, but again for the umpteenth time, that's why I don't really care what you decide. Because I don't have the information to judge this decision, nevermind that it doesn't even affect me.

My only issue is with the subdefaulting and ******** out of people who are doing nothing but raising perfectly legitimate questions about this decision. It's asinine, but I guess that's "community" for ya.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#92 Dec 23 2009 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
My only issue is with the subdefaulting and ******** out of people who are doing nothing but raising perfectly legitimate questions about this decision. It's asinine, but I guess that's "community" for ya.
Yes, because this is the first thread in the history of the internet where people have said things that others didn't agree with and were scorned for it. Plus, you make it sound like these guys are ******* saints. I believe I've read several comments referring to admins "humping SE's leg" and being "pumpkin headed." I've seen you post plenty of times vehemently disagreeing with someone who had a legitimate thought.
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I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#93 Dec 23 2009 at 9:12 PM Rating: Default
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Just a thought:

The point of a beta is to test systems and get feedback. There are multiple things that SE is testing. First, with a closed beta, they will be testing the actual game mechanics, make sure they work. Second, they are testing whether the systems are useable / self explanatory / easy to use, whatever. They want a system that feels right and feels fun. Third, they will probably ask for feed back on what is missing. What can we add to this to put the frosting on the cake so to speak.

In other words, they don't want this information shared because this information is NOT finalized. How will guildleves work? I would imagine that it has been etched out in theory, (and, incidentally, posted on the official site), but the exact details have not been finalized. If a beta tester releases this information, it will cause confusion when the game finally comes out, as the system may have changed. It may also make people generate opinions about game mechanics that will not exist or be altered

That is what a beta test is.

I believe they are also doing an open beta test at the end of the closed beta test. Once they finished polishing the details of their systems, they will then use this open beta to test how many players they can stick on a single server. In other words, a stress test.

Does that clear up some things?

It's like taking a bite off of a hot wing, only to realized it has been marinated, but not cooked in the over yet. While a piece of raw hot wing is gross and disgusting, cooked hot wings are delicious and hot.

In other words:

They don't have answers to give. That's all there is to it.


















tldr version: it's a beta test. not finished. no answers. :D
#94 Dec 23 2009 at 9:14 PM Rating: Good
MetalSmith wrote:
In other words, they don't want this information shared because this information is NOT finalized. How will guildleves work? I would imagine that it has been etched out in theory, (and, incidentally, posted on the official site), but the exact details have not been finalized. If a beta tester releases this information, it will cause confusion when the game finally comes out, as the system may have changed. It may also make people generate opinions about game mechanics that will not exist or be altered


FFXI Brady guide was a leaked beta blog.

True story.

(lewl)
#95 Dec 23 2009 at 9:39 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
FFXI Brady guide was a leaked beta blog.
It was certainly a leaked something.
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#96 Dec 23 2009 at 10:23 PM Rating: Decent
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TheShadowWalker wrote:
Yes, because this is the first thread in the history of the internet where people have said things that others didn't agree with and were scorned for it. Plus, you make it sound like these guys are @#%^ing saints. I believe I've read several comments referring to admins "humping SE's leg" and being "pumpkin headed." I've seen you post plenty of times vehemently disagreeing with someone who had a legitimate thought.


If you could comprehend what you've read, maybe you would understand. The pumpkin related part was directed at me and it's totally out of context. This is what I said, learn to read.

Quote:
Don't let those pumpkin carving plugs on the server message go to your head Admins. If SE is serious about transparency and improving public relations, we'll all see it.


Shadowwalker is looking to instigate and cause drama for no reason. I was referring to the pumpkin server message plug for Allahkazam community relations, not calling the Admins "Pumpkin headed". The real bad seed of this thread is TramaFox. You couldn't even ask a simply question without being treated as if you're a bad person. I won't speak for anyone else, but all I wanted was answers to questions. The majority of the posters including yourself Shadowwalker didn't care to read why we said what we did. You just assumed we're going to compromise the NDA without even asking us. The ironic part for me is I'm not even going to sign up for Beta because my RL schedule is to booked at the moment. Thanks Kachi for actually reading the thread, not skimming it.

Edited, Dec 23rd 2009 10:58pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#97 Dec 24 2009 at 12:54 AM Rating: Decent
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If you could comprehend what you've read, maybe you would understand. The pumpkin related part was directed at me and it's totally out of context. This is what I said, learn to read.
Oh, sorry. That was me thinking of you, when I said that.

Quote:
Shadowwalker is looking to instigate and cause drama for no reason.
I'm instigating drama?

I was about to go dissect every one of your posts in this thread, explaining the tone and implications of your statements, but I decided I really just don't give a ****, especially considering just about everyone of your posts is edited and I don't have a photographic memory so I can't somehow summon up what I originally read. You think alla will have less traffic? Fine, keep on thinking that. It's not like you've been running the website longer than them, you really don't know what you're talking about. Have a good day.

By the way, saying **** like:
Quote:
Your slanderous allegations to discredit someone's own integrity is very immature.

on the internet, is a quick way to make yourself seem like a whining toddler and to ensure I stop reading whatever comes after that. Have a good day tomorrow, too.
____________________________
I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#98 Dec 24 2009 at 3:22 AM Rating: Decent
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As an individual, whether to break the NDA or not is purely a matter of ethics; those that don't have any will find any means to justify breaking a contract they agreed to in order to get whatever they want.

As a business, allowing people to break the NDA and get away with it hurts them a lot more than simply losing face with an individual developer, it is viewed as bad business practice by other developers and effects future business deals with those other developers. I'm curious as to how many betas ZAM has been involved with based purely on the fact that they are a reputable site.

Simply put, breaking the NDA of a video game can not be justified, regardless of what you may think. Getting information six months ahead of time through unofficial channels or getting it a month before release through official channels will have absolutely ZERO effect on the game. Anyone who thinks otherwise, feel free to write up an intelligent, logical, citation based argument, I would love to see it.

Personally, I am glad ZAM will be banning accounts. I also feel those violating the NDA should have their info reported to SE so they can lose their beta account as well, but I'm sure that violates some type of privacy agreement.
#99 Dec 24 2009 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
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There's alot of people out there that sighned up for the ffxiv beta with the sole intention to pick out everything they deem sucky and to spread there negative opinions about the game. I wouldn't want to see all of that on a major ffxiv fansite like Zam.

I'm not sure if this would be considered
Quote:
breaking the NDA
but i would really like it if Zam allowed the tiny information of when the beta for ffxiv actually starts.
#100 Dec 24 2009 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, because this is the first thread in the history of the internet where people have said things that others didn't agree with and were scorned for it. Plus, you make it sound like these guys are @#%^ing saints. I believe I've read several comments referring to admins "humping SE's leg" and being "pumpkin headed." I've seen you post plenty of times vehemently disagreeing with someone who had a legitimate thought.


If you see me do that, by all means, call me out on it. But don't try to use occasional shortcomings on my part as a defense for your own, because I actually acknowledge my mistakes wherein I lack a legitimate defense. Also, I'm perfectly capable of vehemently disagreeing with a -subject- without slinging vitriol at the -person- and trying to make them feel bad for ever even thinking of disagreeing with me.

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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#101 Dec 25 2009 at 3:15 AM Rating: Decent
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The only time BG heard from SE was when someone posted like GM training guide book or something.

In the FFXI beta SE did not care at all if you posted pics and info about the game. In fact they wanted you to get more publicity out of it people to play it. I really doubt they will care much when FFXIV beta is out or even have a NDA since they didn't really have one for FFXI.
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