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My plan to use FFXIV to help learn JapaneseFollow

#1 Dec 21 2009 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I played FFXI for about 2 years and really liked playing with people from different regions of the world. With FFXIV approaching I figured I would take the opportunity to enrich myself through gameplay by learning Japanese. My general plan is to take January to learn the hiragana with a few books I've ordered off of amazon. Then I plan to spend the next 6 months learning through the Rosetta Stone program(expensive but I've heard good things). To supplement this I also have downloaded the KeyholeTV program(lets you watch live japanese tv) and perhaps watch anime without subs or dubs. I figure the earliest FFXIV is released will be September so I hope to have at least the very basics down by then. At that point I can add FFXIV to the learning process by trying to communicate with the Japanese players as much as possible. I'm hoping that by the end of 2010 I'll be able to at least communicate through the game. I figure I can spend several hours a day between reading books, Rosetta Stone exercises, watching KeyholeTV, and playing FFXIV. Does anybody else plan anything like this? Anybody have experience in using FFXI to help learn Japanese? Any suggestions from those who know the language? Any suggestions are welcome.
#2 Dec 21 2009 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
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I used FFXI to learn the basic japanese required to communicate what I needed to.

ikimasu kitsuen Oo.('o')y-~~ (Going to have a cigarette).

See the drawing is important hahaha!

Good plan, good luck!
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#3 Dec 21 2009 at 6:23 PM Rating: Default
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Good luck, but things like pronunciation and obscure rules/when to do certain things might be hard if you're trying to learn the language totally on your own. I've been taking Japanese since I was 15 with my tutor Takako and it definitely did make it easier to play with the JP players on FFXI. But the amount of help that talking with JP players online can give you is limited IMO because just like the way English people talk over games, IM, etc. it can be different from actual conversation
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#4 Dec 21 2009 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Best of luck in your endeavor. I had a similar experience with XI, having some japanese players even go as far as helping me with my broken speech. at the very least they appreciated the fact that I was trying to communicate with them, when so many Na players just said ********** those japanese elitist *****".
#5 Dec 21 2009 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
がんばって!

Not the best way to learn, good luck.
#6 Dec 21 2009 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Hiragana and katakana take fewer than two days to learn; I have some charts that could help you out if you want them. Just send a PM if you need the charts; I'd also recommend using the Genki textbooks to learn. I'm hoping for Japanese keyboard support with the PS3 version of XIV.

Edited, Dec 21st 2009 10:31pm by KierraXIV
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#7 Dec 21 2009 at 9:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd certainly recommend some form of tutoring or classes if your serious about this. Japanese is a complex language where even the way you say a word can mean two completely different things. Katakana and Hiragana are quite easy, kanji is a whole different kind of animal. The meaning and/or sound can change based on the context and whatever if any kanji follows the first one. I don't mean to discourage you in any way, but I think if you tried to learn simply from books and software your setting yourself up for a lot of frustration.

If you want help from actual japanese people in regards to learning their language, I think that finding a website/forum/penpal with that purpose in mind would be far more beneficial, both in time spent and in what is learned.

I'm still learning japanese myself (taking college classes and supplementing with various things at home) and I'm not sure if I can be of much help but feel free to pm me questions if you have any.
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#8 Dec 21 2009 at 10:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd also recommend using the Genki textbooks to learn.
2nd'd

Really though, think about how people talk in english online vs real life vs what they're taught in school.


It's not any better in Japanese.
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#9 Dec 21 2009 at 10:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank you all for the advice. I hadn't considered that textspeak would be used by Japanese players as well. I will look into finding someone to converse with and the Genki textbooks(I assume I need the textbook and the accompanied workbook correct?). Does anyone have experience with the Rosetta Stone software? I've read a lot of reviews but I don't want to drop the couple hundred dollars if it won't help much. Also, any suggestions on finding a tutor outside of a class type arrangement? I don't really have the time during the day and had planned on studying during the night to learn so I don't think I can do it in a class format. Thanks again for the suggestions.
#10 Dec 21 2009 at 10:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I've been intensively learning for the past 4.5 months (that's not the first time I tried, but now I'm serious about it), but that's unrelated to FFXIV. Before that time I had previously gone through Genki 1, so that'd be a good introduction, but it's only going to teach you very basic, textbook japanese, so move on as soon as you can.

Personally the first thing I did after that was learn the Jouyou Kanji (the 2000~ roughly most common characters) like I would an alphabet, which took me 50 days using Anki (flashcard program, google it) and no real special technique, just regular memorisation. Though some people seem to think this is unrealistic... I guess it depends on your memory.

For grammar, read through up to and including special expressions or so http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar. After that I've been studying grammar according to the JLPT syllabus.

Then for grammar I use these lists of sentences, importing them into Anki
http://smart.fm/series/3318
http://smart.fm/series/3321 which'll have taken me around 4 months by the time I finish. They have audio which is handy. After these one'd be reasonably equipped to learn from native sources, probably. Until then, use whatever you want for listening practice... I guess Rosetta Stone can give you some of this stuff but I don't know what it could provide that would make it worth so much when you can find similar stuff for free.

Finding a friend to chat with online or talk to IRL in the language helps too. (I'm so grateful to my penfriend for providing me free accomodation for when I visit ;D)

My reasons are that I need to get to a high level to do graduate study in Japan, so I'm being expeditious about the process... but I'm assuming you're wanting to be too.


Let's just hope JP input is possible in the US version of FFXIV is possible. >.<

Edited, Dec 21st 2009 11:50pm by Dizmo

Edited, Dec 21st 2009 11:51pm by Dizmo
#11 Dec 22 2009 at 12:02 AM Rating: Default
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If your smart, you would burn the rossetastone series like most ppl..... its to expensive
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#12 Dec 22 2009 at 5:18 AM Rating: Decent
I have the japanese rosetta Stone. It is a real good source for learning new vocabulary words.
#14 Dec 22 2009 at 6:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Tenfooterten wrote:
I have the japanese rosetta Stone. It is a real good source for learning new vocabulary words.


I have it to, and have yet to start it.. lol. Maybe I'll finally force myself now that I'm on winter break.
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#15 Dec 22 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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Rosetta stone is okay, and so are textbooks and the like, but if you want to learn as fast as possible you should definitely go into immersion. That meaning watch Japanese TV, listen to Japanese music, and just try to spend as much time using and viewing Japanese in your life everyday with as little English as possible. With a little vocabulary you will start picking out words, then sentences, then phrases, and so on. It'll take at least a year to hold a decent conversation if you try hard enough.

Also here is a cool website to help your reading/writing skills:
http://kanji.koohii.com/
(Side note: It is entirely possible to understand the meaning of kanji without knowing the Japanese word associated with the symbol)

And here's a Japanese TV viewing program.
http://xorsyst.com/japan/watch-japanese-tv-online/

Abit long of a post, but perhaps there are some others who could use the info. Enjoy and good luck!

Edit: Also saw that someones linked to http://smart.fm/. That's a cool flashcard site in itself!

Edited, Dec 22nd 2009 8:39am by waveren
#16 Dec 22 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Default
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Learning a new language is always good, good luck on that.

keep in mind there are different things you will need to concern in learning a new language
(In Order)

1. speak
2. read
3. write
4. type

you can learn how to speak the language, at least the basic from a friend who speaks the language, but reading it could take some more time, I will skipping the writing part. but on typing.. u might have a problem.

what i do is click on the japanese virtual keyboard to my macros on the everyday-use terms
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#17 Dec 22 2009 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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i study the language and well... you'll quickly come to realise that you need alot more than just hiragana and katakana unless most the players stick to that than kanji. tis been to long since i last played FFXI so i don't remember how much kanji people would usually use... but presuming they're the average japanese kid.. probably quite a bit.

The genki books are pretty good for learning.. but i prefer Minna no nihongo, regardless i'll definitely be using FFXIV to help practice and keep up my language skills ^^
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#18 Dec 22 2009 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Hi!

If you are really serious about this, I think going to college would be the best option.

College (including tutoring classes) will give you solid basics and fundamentals regarding Japanese. You will obviously learn how to write, read, speak.

I'm currently studying medicine but I have a friend who studied Japanese for like... 5 years. After this, he went to Japan to live there during 6 months. Yesterday I asked him "How much would you rate yourself if 10/10 is fully fluent, 5/10 capable of having a short conversation and 0/10 no skills at all"

His answer was (taking in consideration he has been studying this for nearly 6 years now)

6/10

Good luck :) :)
#19 Dec 22 2009 at 7:20 PM Rating: Default
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This is a great website if you want to learn Japanese:
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/about

If you can finish this program, you'll have learned a lot of Japanese
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Some cool pics of the Gigatoad and GM characters in there

Some old videos I made (Don't make fun of them, I was young at the time):
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#20 Dec 22 2009 at 10:49 PM Rating: Decent
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aesura wrote:
Hi!

If you are really serious about this, I think going to college would be the best option.

College (including tutoring classes) will give you solid basics and fundamentals regarding Japanese. You will obviously learn how to write, read, speak.


I really disagree here. In 4 months I taught myself as much Japanese as learnt German in 5 years in school... don't waste your money or be held back by sluggish formal education. :)

If you're really serious, being able to read a newspaper after a year is certainly possible, simply by yourself.
#21 Dec 23 2009 at 3:16 AM Rating: Decent
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KierraXIV wrote:
I'm hoping for Japanese keyboard support with the PS3 version of XIV.


The PS3 is Unicode and supports Japanese input natively just like the PSP; however, it does require that you place your machine into Japanese language mode.

I see no reason for SE to disable the IME within FFXIV when it is a native function of the PS3 OS. I believe the issue for FFXI was that a license for JustSystem's ATOK had to be purchased on behalf of the end-user for each unit of FFXI sold in Japan by Square-Enix. That gave them a way to slightly lower the North American and European counterpart releases, because it was decided that non-Japanese versions did not absolutely require the ATOK engine, so they simply disabled it, leaving all the files in-tact.

Since NA/EU PS3s already support Japanese input, everyone will be able to input Japanese in FFXIV this time around.
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#22 Dec 23 2009 at 6:00 AM Rating: Good
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Tenfooterten wrote:
がんばって!

Not the best way to learn, good luck.


This.

You would be better served using a medium that is intended to guide you through the language and test you on your progression. Reverse engineering a language using a dictionary is counter-productive and would in all honesty not get you very far. The same would apply to learning the kana through books and then hopping into FFXI/FFXIV.

Rosetta Stone is a visual and audio tool that will guide you through phrases and some kana, but it lacks the written and sentence structure element of learning the language. Another thing to consider is that Japanese is not a phonetic language really. If you can learn to say the consonants outloud you essentially can be understood. Unlike other languages (Finnish, Swedish etc), Japanese is easy in terms of phonetically grasping the language. (Aside from some offbeat dialects and slang.)

After spending time in Japan on a Language exchange program I actually did play around with the JP FFXI when I got back. It was indeed fun to use IME and chat with a few JP parties, but I would not say that it was something positive in terms of actually learning Japanese. I spent more time rushing and getting worked up over Kanji speeding across the screen. It was also obvious to Japanese players that I was not Japanese. I once asked a Japanese player I PTed with for a pearl and he gave me one. I spent a lot of time saying おめでとう! (Congradulations!) and おかえり〜 (Welcome back!) in LS chat. Other than that it was hard to fit in and actually communicate with anyone.

I would grab Japanese for Busy People (Awesome books!). Then take a course with actual people in it and maybe if you have any extra money to find a full immersion native Japanese tutor that can really challenge you.

A language is really only half useful if you do not intend to communicate with other people, vocally in my opinion.
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#23 Dec 23 2009 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Seconding the earlier suggestion to use http://kanji.koohii.com/ along with the 'Remembering the Kanji' book by Heiseg. I'm going through it right now and am about to 800 kanji. After I finish with the book, I hope to go on with reviewing sentences that I find in written material, etc. Maybe by the time FFXIV comes out, I'll have enough vocab and grammar to be able to communicate :)

Oh, and this is a godly site for kanji lookup - http://jisho.org/kanji/radicals/

As far as rosetta stone goes, I hear it's good for verbal communication, but it's not very good for writing, especially because of how retarded the japanese writing system is.
#24 Dec 26 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't buy Rosetta even if it was 1/4 the price; it's not worth it in the long run
I taught myself Japanese, and i feel I learned it faster and with waaay less money than if I had gone to college classes. I had years of French and I know way more Japanese than that.

Some things you may find useful:
-James W. Heisig's book: Remembering the Kana: A Guide to Reading and Writing the Japanese Syllabaries in 3 Hours Each. (Not necessary for learning the Kana (Hiragana + Katakana) but I learned it in about 5 hours and it was helpful in learning the method I used in learning the Kanji:
-The 4 boxes of Tuttle Flashcards for Kanji (I got them for a total of $40 + shipping on amazon) They use the same method as the above. It's based off of Heisig's Kanji books, which I bought also, though rarely use. The books were nice for reviewing, where I could see the slight differences in kanji better. It took me about a month to learn the meanings of 1945+ kanji

-Genki Textbooks
Taeko Kamiya's books:
-Japanese Sentence Patterns for Effective Communication
-Handbook Of Japanese Adjectives and Adverbs
-The Handbook of Japanese Verbs
Very simple and easy to learn using those books. Nice use of kanji as well.

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Conversational Japanese. Let me emphasize I wouldn't normally recommend this book. It's extremely important to move away from romanji ASAP. But I found the Grammar/Conjugation section helpful. I had to relearn it to use kana, but I learned it in half the time due to this book. If only it had been in kana from the start ;_; (notice the title though)

Those are nice starter books, there's more when you get into harder stuff. :)

I also enjoy anime, so it was quite fun understanding the Japanese from there, and later speaking it.
I do lack the tutoring for speaking, as I didn't take a class. The best speaker I know had 3 months formal training before moving to Japan for a year. Learned Japanese by books and experience. Though that was kind of out of the question for me. Another person I know spent 4 years teaching/refining himself. No one could tell in ffxi that he wasn't a native speaker. So it's totally possible to self teach japanese! Infact, I'd recommend it (esp for learning the kanji)
Lastly, move away from kana as quickly as possible as well, learning Kanji early on is best though not too commonly done.

I intend on improving my communication by playing FFXIV in Japanese as well. We should go on the same server and practice with each other! :P

#25 Dec 26 2009 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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It's extremely important to move away from romanji ASAP

I don't exactly get why people say this, in order to type out anything in kana or kanji you first need to type it in romanji, unless I've been doing something horribly wrong. Smiley: confused

Quote:
I wouldn't buy Rosetta even if it was 1/4 the price; it's not worth it in the long run

For 0/10 the price though, I think it's worth it. Smiley: wink2

Edited, Dec 26th 2009 3:24pm by Deadgye
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#26 Dec 26 2009 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't exactly get why people say this, in order to type out anything in kana or kanji you first need to type it in romanji, unless I've been doing something horribly wrong.


Hmm, why?

Also, if you can find a list of kanji's and their meanings on the interwebs "Anki" is the best tool you could have to help learning the letters. Google it up if you want to know more. It was incredibly easy to learn kanji with it, if you don't rush.

As for the OP, watching anime without subs doesn't really help. XIV will help in the sense that you can read the JP text from the screen, but I don't think you'll be able to communicate with them anytime soon.

Edited, Dec 26th 2009 11:58pm by Hyanmen

Edited, Dec 26th 2009 11:58pm by Hyanmen
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#27 Dec 26 2009 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmm, why?


Well, take this for example: I want to type "To the center of the sun." The end result is 太陽の真ん中へ, separated into parts it's 太陽, の, 真ん中, へ. In order to write each part I have to type out the romanji and then transform it into the correct kanji. taiyou becomes 太陽, no is の, mannaka is 真ん中, he is へ.

Of course, I could be doing it wrong; I still don't even know a basic level of japanese because I've been procrastinating getting started lol.
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#28 Dec 26 2009 at 5:13 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
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It's extremely important to move away from romanji ASAP

I don't exactly get why people say this, in order to type out anything in kana or kanji you first need to type it in romanji, unless I've been doing something horribly wrong. Smiley: confused


Well, you need to learn how to write manually and read too. :)
#29 Dec 26 2009 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
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Well, you need to learn how to write manually and read too. :)


Well yeah, but that doesn't change anything about typing!

Also.. I just realized the only reason I can decently pronounce japanese already without even having a basic knowledge is because I sing along with all the openings and endings when I watch anime.. <.<;
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#30 Dec 27 2009 at 12:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Dezmo

Sluggish formal education :)

Please do no try to be smart because you are not :) I can tell :) :) Learning a language only requires memory :) not understanding but memorization :) so please.. if you want to impress with your-fast-learning 5 months (lol) japanese; it's ok to do it online lol

But I know smart people :) Yes I really do know some :) and when I said it took 5 years for my friend to master Japanese as he masters English; Believe him :)

But ohwell sluggish formal education **** ! Perhaps I shouldn't go to college to do my MD, online papers with books are enough.

LOL

I understand your point of view though
Edit: Changed Dizmo for Dezmo :D



Edited, Dec 27th 2009 1:55am by aesura
#31 Dec 27 2009 at 5:09 AM Rating: Decent
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I had the same ideas for FFXI, but in the end the easy road was mostly chosen. While I could have attempted to join a bi-lingual LS, I ended up in an English one. While I could have had two LS, I had one. While I could have talked to Japanese players, I mostly just listened to shouts.
#32 Dec 27 2009 at 5:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Well, take this for example: I want to type "To the center of the sun." The end result is 太陽の真ん中へ, separated into parts it's 太陽, の, 真ん中, へ. In order to write each part I have to type out the romanji and then transform it into the correct kanji. taiyou becomes 太陽, no is の, mannaka is 真ん中, he is へ.

Of course, I could be doing it wrong; I still don't even know a basic level of japanese because I've been procrastinating getting started lol.



What he probably meant was that the end result wasn't "Taiyou no mannaka he" (good song btw) but 太陽の真ん中へ which would be correct. Since learning the words but not the correct kanji isn't really effective, it's better to learn both the meaning and the kanji at the same time if possible. You could know all about the grammar and vocabulary but you wouldn't really be able to communicate with anyone (except vocally) since you wouldn't know any of the million kanji's. And writing only using kana's is possible, but very ineffective, since using kanji's makes reading the text so much faster in the end.
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#33 Dec 27 2009 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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aesura wrote:
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Dezmo

Sluggish formal education :)

Please do no try to be smart because you are not :) I can tell :) :) Learning a language only requires memory :) not understanding but memorization :) so please.. if you want to impress with your-fast-learning 5 months (lol) japanese; it's ok to do it online lol

But I know smart people :) Yes I really do know some :) and when I said it took 5 years for my friend to master Japanese as he masters English; Believe him :)

But ohwell sluggish formal education **** ! Perhaps I shouldn't go to college to do my MD, online papers with books are enough.

LOL

I understand your point of view though
Edit: Changed Dizmo for Dezmo :D



Edited, Dec 27th 2009 1:55am by aesura

Oh no, I've been learning off and on for a lot longer than that, I was just talking about the progress in independent study compared being stuck to a curriculum and studying textbooks instead of real life material.

Edited, Dec 27th 2009 10:50am by Dizmo
#34 Dec 27 2009 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Sluggish formal education :)

Please do no try to be smart because you are not :) I can tell :) :) Learning a language only requires memory :) not understanding but memorization :) so please.. if you want to impress with your-fast-learning 5 months (lol) japanese; it's ok to do it online lol

But I know smart people :) Yes I really do know some :) and when I said it took 5 years for my friend to master Japanese as he masters English; Believe him :)

But ohwell sluggish formal education **** ! Perhaps I shouldn't go to college to do my MD, online papers with books are enough.

LOL

I understand your point of view though
Edit: Changed Dizmo for Dezmo :D


Fake smiles suck.
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#35 Dec 27 2009 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Fake smiles suck.


(*´д`*)
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#36 Dec 27 2009 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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aesura wrote:
Quote:
Dezmo

Sluggish formal education :)

Please do no try to be smart because you are not :) I can tell :) :) Learning a language only requires memory :) not understanding but memorization :) so please.. if you want to impress with your-fast-learning 5 months (lol) japanese; it's ok to do it online lol

But I know smart people :) Yes I really do know some :) and when I said it took 5 years for my friend to master Japanese as he masters English; Believe him :)

But ohwell sluggish formal education **** ! Perhaps I shouldn't go to college to do my MD, online papers with books are enough.

LOL

I understand your point of view though
Edit: Changed Dizmo for Dezmo :D


The thing is, language education in a formal setting (ie: school) is actually quite slower than going at it independently. I know people who've majored in Japanese (4 years at a school to get a BS in Japanese) who can barely speak the language because all they do is focus on a unit at a time and don't actually use the language all in their daily life. Unless you go to a specialized language school (ie: the kind that governments use to train diplomats/agents), you can get the same benefit of several years of education at a university in half of a year to a year of concentrated individual studying.

Also: Here's a screwdriver, pop off your colon and 0 key. Thanks!

Edited, Dec 27th 2009 2:20pm by InsideTheAsylum
#37 Dec 27 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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For self studiers, listening to anime is helpful for pronunciation only (at first.) You'll catch more as you go. Of course people won't learn much from it early on.

I've used a lot of different things to test out what way I wanted to learn (some based off of what my friends suggested.) I'm just saying which was most helpful to me. People can use the internet to learn Kanji (free), but I found Heisig's method extremely easy (and faster.)

Quote:
I don't exactly get why people say this, in order to type out anything in kana or kanji you first need to type it in romanji, unless I've been doing something horribly wrong.


I said ASAP, not skip it. Reason I say this is mostly for reading & writing (not typing) purposes.

Edited, Dec 27th 2009 2:51pm by PeachLadyBug
#38 Dec 27 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I think allot of importance must be placed on first fully understanding how the human brain actually works. Our Brains work by storing patterns and our synapses gain stronger connections with each other through reuse of that collection of neurons. Once you learn something it will always be stored in your brain from then on, we actually never really forget anything, however if you are not constantly building the strength of your synapses the connection will become increasingly weaker over time until you have "forgotten" that information.

It is thus scientifically proven that the most efficient way to learn something is to place yourself in an environment where your brain is forced to recognize collect and store patterns at regular intervals thus strengthening the connections in your neural network.

School is not always the best way to learn something as complex as a language imho. I kind of wish that how the human brain works was of the first things I learned in pre-school because it has changed my understanding about how to learn things vastly.

Honestly the best way to learn would be to dive right in and use repetition as your main guiding force. It would be awesome IMO if FFXIV allowed for full voice communication and I was learning all kinds of languages from people around the world.

Edited, Dec 27th 2009 4:16pm by thorazinekizzez
#39 Dec 27 2009 at 6:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I think allot of importance must be placed on first fully understanding how the human brain actually works. Our Brains work by storing patterns and our synapses gain stronger connections with each other through reuse of that collection of neurons. Once you learn something it will always be stored in your brain from then on, we actually never really forget anything, however if you are not constantly building the strength of your synapses the connection will become increasingly weaker over time until you have "forgotten" that information.

It is thus scientifically proven that the most efficient way to learn something is to place yourself in an environment where your brain is forced to recognize collect and store patterns at regular intervals thus strengthening the connections in your neural network.

School is not always the best way to learn something as complex as a language imho. I kind of wish that how the human brain works was of the first things I learned in pre-school because it has changed my understanding about how to learn things vastly.

Honestly the best way to learn would be to dive right in and use repetition as your main guiding force. It would be awesome IMO if FFXIV allowed for full voice communication and I was learning all kinds of languages from people around the world.


Wonderfully said.
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