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Summons in XIVFollow

#1 Dec 21 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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copied from a thread i made at eorzeapedia. i'd like to know what my fellows here at Zam have to say about it.

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Hello friends, I know that SE has stated that there will be no summoner class in the game at launch (at least i think i rememmber reading that a few months back). However i think we can all agree that Summons will eventually make it into the game somehow.

I was thinking that, given the way Classes are handled in XIV, it might be hard to introduce a summoning mechanic (what weapon would summoner be tied to?) albeit very possible.

I was thinkin that maybe they will introduce a system along the lines of FFXII where every character can have a summon, They would have to be relatively limited in ability or cooldown, but i think it would be fun. Since you can change classes, much like XI, once you get you're summon, you can use it on all you're classes, its power/abiltiies scaling down to you're level when you change classes.

Maybe summons could be the desperation attacks of the game? similar to 2hours. Although i would like to see them play a bigger role than that.

See, the major problem with summoners in XI was that, the job was pretty inconsistent with summoners from the rest of the series. Summons were supposed to be some of the best damagers in the game, but in XI, they were pretty much used as support only. With good reason of coarse, Having Summons do damage on the scale of previous FFs would be rediculously overpowered. Everybody having a Summon would balance this problem in a way.

Maybe you could go on a big long quest in the mid-high levels to get your summon, sort of like the AF quests in XI.

Going really overboard with the idea, maybe you could use summons as mounts? that would be neato. Ive always wanted to ride ifrit.....

I think it would add a really interesting dynamic to the game, everyone having access to a summmon.

feedback?
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#2 Dec 21 2009 at 10:37 PM Rating: Good
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While it would be an interesting way to use summons, I don't know how well balanced everyone having a summon, regardless of class, would be.

For the sake of the discussion, I'll assume that every summon is unique in stats/abilities.

Eventually, if not right off the bat, somebody would find the summon that is best for each role(tank/damage/support), and it would be pretty cookie cutter after that. You'd see all these people running around with just Ifrit out, since he's the best for damage. Of course, people will want to be different. They might use Ramuh for his amazing physique, but a lot of people want to be the best they can. I don't know, the idea sounds cool, and I guess you could balance it so every summon is useful, but you'd basically be turning every class into a pet class.

I'd rather the summons be involved in the story, either via quests/plot advancement, or maybe even bosses, if they don't ever add a Summoner-like class.
#3 Dec 21 2009 at 11:04 PM Rating: Decent
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you make a good point..... perhaps they could make summons a solo-only option. Sort of like NPC fellows from XI, but implemented better/much more useful. Maybe they could introduce a system like FFX where you could progress you're summon seperate from your own character. Would give players something to do when they're not really in the mood to party/do guild leves, head out and level up you're summon, pokemon style. I don't see a reason that these ideas would have to hinder the use of summons in the main story.

Again, i'm just brainstorming ideas here, i'm sure i'll wake up tommorow and consider some of what i just posted as rediculous and stupid, but as we have no real info on summons in XIV, its fun to imagine all the possibilities.

****, maybe instead of a traditional PVP system, they could introduce a summon-arena type thing where you just have summon battles, sort of like that pankraton (sp?)thing in XI, but implemented better, and less gimmicky.

Feel free to come up with you're own ideas for how summons can be used, i'd love to here them, even if you dont nessicarily like the idea, or would prefer the same approach as XI, i would still love to here whatever anyone comes up with. Being starved of info like we all are, The best thing we can do is just think up random ideas i figure.
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#4 Dec 21 2009 at 11:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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I agree, in the traditional sense.

Which is to say, a being that only appears temporarily to deliver it's effect via incredibly epic special effects. In that sense, it's very much like a 2-hour in function, and very much in the spirit of classic final fantasy Summons, without being difficult to balance in an MMO setting.

Unlike XI's 2-hour, this allows you to choose what type of desperation ability you want, adding to the emphasis on customization XIV seems to be going for. I think the 'desperation' nature of it would help preserve it as a choice practically speaking. Something that's out constantly becomes a part of normal play, and becomes less something chosen through personal preference and more through peer pressure.

As a former Summoner myself, I would miss the class being used in the pet capacity. But I recognize that was part of what made it so hard to Balance. I almost dread Summoner being revived in XIV as some pale imitation of the classic concept we know and love. I would much prefer an intriguing mechanic like this.



Edited, Dec 22nd 2009 1:00am by Zemzelette
#5 Dec 21 2009 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Again, i'm just brainstorming ideas here, i'm sure i'll wake up tommorow and consider some of what i just posted as rediculous and stupid, but as we have no real info on summons in XIV, its fun to imagine all the possibilities.


There's nothing ridiculous or stupid about it. It's fun speculating what may or may not be in the game, and how it's implemented/used. If people didn't speculate, I doubt this forum would find much use. :p

Quote:
I agree, in the traditional sense.

Which is to say, a being that only appears temporarily to deliver it's effect via incredibly epic special effects. In that sense, it's very much like a 2-hour in function, and very much in the spirit of classic final fantasy Summons, without being difficult to balance in an MMO setting.

Unlike XI's 2-hour, this allows you to choose what type of desperation ability you want, adding to the emphasis on customization XIV seems to be going for. I think the 'desperation' nature of it would help preserve it as a choice practically speaking. Something that's out constantly becomes a part of normal play, and becomes less something chosen through personal preference and more through peer pressure.

As a former Summoner myself, I would miss the class being used in the pet capacity. But that was part of what made it so hard to Balance. I almost dread Summoner being revived in XIV as some pale imitation of the classic concept we know and love. I would much prefer an intriguing mechanic like this.


I like the sound of this. Depending on the summon itself, it could come in the form of either damage or a buff of some sort. The hard part is balancing the attack/buff so that it's not too powerful, but still useful in a pinch. Imagine your party is being overwhelmed by a large group of monsters, so you summon Garuda, and cast an AoE spell that makes your entire party unable to be it by physical attacks for...I don't know, 8 seconds. It's a good "OH SHI-" button, while also still having a drawback of a cast time/resource cost/vulnerable to magic damage.

Just an example, but something like that would be really freakin' cool.
#6 Dec 22 2009 at 12:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I believe summons will appear as something that adds a few abilities to the player but only 1 can be "equipped" at a time. So even if you change jobs you are stuck with the same summon as before. The reason is each summon can augment your character in a specific way (Ifrit has Str bonus and damage based attack like a 2hr) but also grants the user with support abilities as well (blaze spikes or the likes). These can only be used sparingly though and means the summon is not constantly out. As most people will likely have their "main" job, their summon will boost that one job more than their spares but they can change summons in town if they wish to main something else.
#7 Dec 22 2009 at 12:18 AM Rating: Good
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I enjoyed being a summoner in XI because I felt a close bond to my avatars~ if everyone had one then it would feel like equipment.

I want to see a summoner class put in evetually. Remember that when XI came out the summoner class didn't exist. That came later.

Part of the story would be cool also.
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#8 Dec 22 2009 at 12:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I would like to see something similar to Yuna in X. One of the problems with smn in XI was keeping the balance between summoner and pet. Why not minimize the summoner from the get go and let the player take control of the avatar? Gear for summoner can be focused on buffing the "pet". As for a weapon, if not staffs there are orbs, rods, gems, any number of magical items.
#9 Dec 22 2009 at 12:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I would like to see something similar to Yuna in X. One of the problems with smn in XI was keeping the balance between summoner and pet. Why not minimize the summoner from the get go and let the player take control of the avatar? Gear for summoner can be focused on buffing the "pet". As for a weapon, if not staffs there are orbs, rods, gems, any number of magical items.


i like this idea, FFX had the best summoning system out of any FF game in my opinion. Maybe it could end up being sort of like a mix between melee and mage jobs? While you're summon is out, it deals great damage, maybe slightly more than melee jobs, but the downside is that maybe you can't have the summons out at all times? or they have an MP upkeep like in XI.

or maybe balance the summons to the same level as melee jobs and allow them to be out all the time, do to this though, the abilties of the actual summoner would have to be greatly reduced.

Either way, its exciting to think about. When i first heard of FFXI, i knew that i wanted to be a summoner, until i actually got the game and learned that they are basically just a back up healer/support class. The possibility that Summons could actually deal large amounts of damage comparable do Black Mages would be great.
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#10 Dec 22 2009 at 1:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
While it would be an interesting way to use summons, I don't know how well balanced everyone having a summon, regardless of class, would be.

For the sake of the discussion, I'll assume that every summon is unique in stats/abilities.

Eventually, if not right off the bat, somebody would find the summon that is best for each role(tank/damage/support), and it would be pretty cookie cutter after that. You'd see all these people running around with just Ifrit out, since he's the best for damage. Of course, people will want to be different. They might use Ramuh for his amazing physique, but a lot of people want to be the best they can. I don't know, the idea sounds cool, and I guess you could balance it so every summon is useful, but you'd basically be turning every class into a pet class.


Anyone here played FFXIII yet? correct me if I'm wrong but I believe in that game each character has their own summons that they can use under specific circumstances. I could see SE continuing this path in XIV by having players "bind" their characters to specific summons and then being able to call them under the right circumstances.

Personally though, I prefer the separate summoner class. This also seems more likely if the "Ifrit screenshot" does indeed show a beastman summoner.
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#11 Dec 22 2009 at 3:26 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Anyone here played FFXIII yet? correct me if I'm wrong but I believe in that game each character has their own summons that they can use under specific circumstances. I could see SE continuing this path in XIV by having players "bind" their characters to specific summons and then being able to call them under the right circumstances.

Personally though, I prefer the separate summoner class. This also seems more likely if the "Ifrit screenshot" does indeed show a beastman summoner.


Under specific circumstances would work fine. I was just referring to if you actually had the capability to keep it summoned a decent portion of the time.
#12 Dec 22 2009 at 8:45 AM Rating: Decent
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too much reading upstairs, so I will skip.

I just want to point out, if everyone has a summon out, it will be a big problem in terms of bandwidth and laggyness
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#13 Dec 22 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Mostaru wrote:
I just want to point out, if everyone has a summon out, it will be a big problem in terms of bandwidth and laggyness
Only if Square keeps the bandwidth cap at the archaic age of the 56k. And even then it'll only be an issue in hub towns.
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#14 Dec 22 2009 at 9:21 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Mostaru wrote:
I just want to point out, if everyone has a summon out, it will be a big problem in terms of bandwidth and laggyness
Only if Square keeps the bandwidth cap at the archaic age of the 56k. And even then it'll only be an issue in hub towns.


but I dont think it will be nice to see everyone has their summons out when they party
imagine there are 10 parties in the crawler's nest and everyone has their Ifrits out..... ehhhhhh NO
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#15 Dec 22 2009 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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why not have the player morph into that summon for a set amount of time and have a cooldown period, instead of having a "pet". Could be like "morphing" magic. I dunno just shooting out some ideas.
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#16 Dec 22 2009 at 12:10 PM Rating: Default
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I dunno if anyone mentioned this yet, but how about different summons for different weapons? Like the element would suit what type of weapon it is, exp, Fire is commonly used for Swords so if you use a Sword, Ifrit would be your summon, and etc. What do you guys think?
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#17 Dec 22 2009 at 12:32 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
Only if Square keeps the bandwidth cap at the archaic age of the 56k. And even then it'll only be an issue in hub towns.


FFXI was released at 56k because broadband wasn't the standard when FFXI was being developed. SE has confirmed FFXIV will use high tech this time around so that implies broadband speeds.
#18 Dec 22 2009 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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I like the idea of a Summon to be like a "2hr" to be used in those "oh crap" moments. Rather than a pet class like in FFXI.

Summoner as a job means the Summons seem a bit underpowered compared to usual FF summons.

Like in FFVII, FFVIII and FFXII, any character can have a summon. And in FFXIV it would be nice if we can whip it out when things get hairy. ;)
#19 Dec 22 2009 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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hmmm if they were a short period transformation like badcuddy sugested, that could work too. Like a 2hour as people are saying but you get control of the beast and your character vanishes :P, once the 30 seconds or so is up it melts away leaving your exuasted character practicly at the mercy of whatever you couldn't kill as the summon.

That would make them far more of a desperation thing for solo and something to be used very carfully in parties.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2009 10:23pm by zurinadrg
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