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#1 Dec 24 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I started to think about it and realized since there are no "Jobs" so to speak, how will they implement a 2hr type ability? Maybe they will be unlocked abilities or even Quested for. Once you unlock it, you can set it to be your 2hr. Maybe even race specific 2hr? What is everyone's speculation. Looking for some interesting ideas.
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#2 Dec 24 2009 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
Well, i'm thinking everyone gets a sort of starter set of abilities. Since their are no real classes w/o using armor/weapons, they will probably be the same abilities for everyone.
#3 Dec 24 2009 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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There are still in essence classes and jobs. And let's throw it out there, there will still in essence be levels. Just because they're calling it something else doesn't change the fact that it's still there.
#4 Dec 24 2009 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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I didn't really like how 2hours were in FFXI, personally I hope they do not return.
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#5 Dec 24 2009 at 4:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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There is the possibility there won't be anything like a 2hour at all.

But for the sake of having something to type while waiting for the oven; Having an ability with a 2hour cooldown is one of those things that may be politically contentious with the new casual outlook. I can see something more like a '15 minute' or '30minute'. For something available so frequently, these would probably not be the almighty game-changers they were in XI.

And that's just fine with me.

I would argue XI's 2 hours were just a bit too good. In the early days, the designers didn't create encounters around the expectation of their use. Sometimes this meant using a 2hour made the encounters a bit too easy. When designers did start to create encounters around the expectation of their use, failure at an encounter incurred a 2 hour downtime.

Some kind of mini "Oh Shi-" button would be a nice middleground.




Edited, Dec 24th 2009 5:40pm by Zemzelette
#6 Dec 24 2009 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Why do they have to return? They were stupid.

I'm ok with some spells/abilities with longer cooldown times (like every 10-30 minutes you can cast/use) but having this overpowered ability every 2 hours was just dumb, and of course all HNM strategies are based on two hours.

Edited, Dec 24th 2009 5:55pm by Poubelle
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#7 Dec 24 2009 at 7:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm going to chime in with the others - but with a slightly snarky:

This isn't FFXI. Why would we have them at all?

In regards to "oh shi-" buttons, most MMOs have those type of abilities. Super good moves are on 10-20+ minute cooldowns. Useful, but not uber are on 3-5 minute cooldowns. (My experience is from WoW personally, hearsay from friends playing other games). I'd rather see these type of abilities that have actual situational efficacy than 2hrs that are not balanced. (ie. Meikyo Shisui (sp? it's been a while) vs lolPerfect Dodge).
#8 Dec 24 2009 at 11:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I didn't think they were stupid.

I loved how with my Monk, I could use 100 Fists 2 hour to beat down an NM or something VT or T, something real hard and actually beat it down

I could only use it every 2 hours but I don't think it was stupid


Anyway, I think its still up in the air as we don't have all the info on all the jobs yet, or professions.

2 Hour is still a possibility.

And I thought myself 2 hours were good, I mean, are you retarded? They were REALLY good in FFXI Online.

If your party was in trouble, if the whole team released the 2 hours at once ((if your team knew what the word Teamwork meant)), EVERYONE would fire it up in emergency, and sometimes it would really help and make the dangerous situation epic.

I think they are great and definitely should be in there for FFXIV.

I mean, maybe they are just a bit too good, BUT YOU CAN ONLY USE THEM EVERY 2 HOURS! For a short time too! big deal!

Just my 2 cents..

Cant wait for XIV.
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#9 Dec 25 2009 at 3:24 AM Rating: Good
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Honestly I hope there are no really long cool downs on abilities. 15-20 min seems like a good max which is what a majority of mmos use for the overpowered moves. 2 hours is just too long in my opinion.
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#10 Dec 25 2009 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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2 hours were retarded in ffxi... how the **** you got better JA's that last 5-10 mins and a ****** two hour (that is suppose to save your life) last 20 seconds... if anything ii would just use my 2hr at the start of every party
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#11 Dec 25 2009 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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I'd rather SE avoid 2 hours all together if they're going to balance encounters around them. One legit attempt every 2 hours? Nooooooooo.

Just stick to the new trend of 10-15 minute cooldowns on your better abilities. Nothing too overpowered about a shorter duration Hundred Fists. Shoot, you could make HF last 6 or 8 seconds, tag a 3-5 minute cooldown on it, and call it a day.
#12 Dec 25 2009 at 4:25 PM Rating: Default
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I'd rather SE avoid 2 hours all together if they're going to balance encounters around them. One legit attempt every 2 hours? Nooooooooo.

Just stick to the new trend of 10-15 minute cooldowns on your better abilities. Nothing too overpowered about a shorter duration Hundred Fists. Shoot, you could make HF last 6 or 8 seconds, tag a 3-5 minute cooldown on it, and call it a day.


Players balance the encounters around them not SE, nothin in the game requires your 2hour in order to defeat it, (dynamis lord being the closest). Players decide to win easy by everyone 2 houring, its not a requirement by SE on anything.

I think 2 hours were ok. It wasn't the greatest thing in the world and it wasn't the worst. Every 2 hour was useful in at least one situation that may come up within the game. With a ability like rdm 2hour and mnk 2hour and pld 2hour and many others, it can't be a 10-15 minute cooldown, that would be way too overpowering. There should not be a max "cooldown time" the time should depend on the greatness of the ability, and how it could affect the game. Max cooldown times just restrict the abilities they will enter in the game. You think they will let you instant-cast for 1 minute, every 10-15 minutes? Of course not, they will just not put those kind of good abilities in the game.

I would be perfectly fine with or without 2 hours, it really isn't a huge deal. I personally think that the 2 hour abilities will be race oriented now, because its being called classes not jobs. Along with the fact that they said races will make a difference but not on the starting stats like on ffxi (for example taru had less hp etc etc). They said they wanted people to pick the race they wanted to play as, regardless of what class they wanted to play on. Giving the races a special 2 hour ability would make the races different without actually messing with what class they can perform well on, because 2 hours are never needed anyway just an added bonus.
#13 Dec 25 2009 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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How were 2 hours stupid? It makes a lot of sense to have something like that. You've battled hard for a while and all of a sudden enemies are starting to overtake you, so you give it that one last push and beat the **** out of everything. Do you really have to be able to 100 fists every 20 minutes? No... you don't even need to do it every 2 hours, but it's nice to have it if you need it and they absolutely need to have some sort of limit on how often you can utilize it.
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#14 Dec 25 2009 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not implying keeping Hundred Fists/Invincibility/etc the same, while reducing the cooldown. You'd reduce the duration/effect as well.

I don't know, I'm the type of player who saved my 2 hour for a situation where it was needed, and 95% of the time, I'd just end up not using it. Maybe on the last pull before the party disbanded, but that's it. I'd just like to see those powerful abilities be used more often, even if its a different form.
#15 Dec 25 2009 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not implying keeping Hundred Fists/Invincibility/etc the same, while reducing the cooldown. You'd reduce the duration/effect as well.


Are you saying that instead of 30secs of Hundred Fists, you'd rather have 15secs of Fifty Fists every hour? That doesn't make a lot of sense, imo.

Edited, Dec 25th 2009 7:15pm by mcboxx
#16 Dec 25 2009 at 7:58 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm not implying keeping Hundred Fists/Invincibility/etc the same, while reducing the cooldown. You'd reduce the duration/effect as well.

I don't know, I'm the type of player who saved my 2 hour for a situation where it was needed, and 95% of the time, I'd just end up not using it. Maybe on the last pull before the party disbanded, but that's it. I'd just like to see those powerful abilities be used more often, even if its a different form.
No, I understand. I'm just coming from the perspective that they weren't put in the game to be used regularly, or every 2 hours, or every 5 hours. The powerful abilities that are meant to be used often are weapon skills and abilities. By making the "2 hour" weaker, with less cool down you've just created yet another "all right" ability, which.. already exists.

I mean, if they took 2 hours out of the game, you just have normal abilities. Nothing super strong. Which is fine... but if they have them then you have the normal abilities plus something super strong which, personally, is much nicer.

I just don't understand why an ability shouldn't be in the game just because you can't use it in every fight.


To reiterate what I see happening from my perspective I'll say this:

Let's say you've got a Monk. Your 2 hour is 100 fists. But say you don't like the idea of a 2 hour, so SE decides to make it have a shorter cooldown and be less powerful. They take away 100 fists and give you Raging Fists. Which, you already had. Essentially, the watered down 2 hours have already been implemented into the game (from an FFXI perspective), they're weapon skills. If they gave you a weapon skill instead of the 2 hour, then you'd just have two very similar weapon skills and you'll never use the one. So why not just keep the more powerful version of the weapon skill for when you need it?
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I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#17 Dec 25 2009 at 11:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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There really isn't anything wrong with the idea of 2 hours from the player's perspective. It's problematic from a design standpoint. The gap between "normal" abilities and super-powerful attacks is their defining allure, but that's what makes them so difficult to craft an encounter around.

Let me use a hypothetical:

The player is capable of 2 attacks. There's nothing fancy going on here, they only differ in the amount of damage they do and their cooldown. Your tasked with creating a Boss enemy for this game.

Player's Attack 1 does 20 damage, it takes 1 minute to cooldown.
Player's Attack 2 does 1000 damage, it takes 1 hour to cooldown.
How much HP do you give the Boss?

Take the same scenario, and switch it up a bit.
Player's Attack 1 does 20 damage, it takes 1 minute to cooldown.
Player's Attack 2 does 80 damage, it takes 5 minutes to cooldown.
How much HP do you give the Boss?


The second question you might be able to take a stab at. 200 HP puts you at about a 6 minute boss battle. If you never touched Attack 2, the encounter could take as long as 10 minutes. Pretty long, but manageable. If you lost the fight, you could wait the 5 minutes to make the encounter easier, or you could just jump right back on the horse. If you open with your strongest attack as folks are apt to do, your strongest attack is available to deliver the satisfying final blow. It's long enough to be engaging, but it's over before you'd get bored with it, with the player's ability to choose preserved in every step. I can tie a bow on it, it's so nice and neat.


But the first? Well. Now your kind of stuck, aren't you?

You could make the Boss have 1100 HP, enough so that even with using your strongest attack you still get a nice 5-minute battle out of it, but that makes the encounter an incredibly lengthy 55 minutes if you just use attack 1 (if you can manage to survive that long). If you lost the fight, you can either spend the next hour plinking away with Attack 1 or twiddling your thumbs.

You could make the boss have 100 HP, enough so that you have the choice to defeat the Boss with your weakest attack and avoid this whole downtime business. But then the boss can potentially be instantly defeated. Not really worthy of the title 'Boss', ne?

The actual metrics behind something like an MMO is infinitely more complex than my simplified offering here, and there's a bit of mercy in the complexity of things. However, the idea of a super-powerful attack is fundamentally flawed, and that aspect rears it's ugly head more often than circumstance obscures it. As much as I find the idea interesting, it really is better in theory than it is in practice.



Edited, Dec 26th 2009 1:24am by Zemzelette
#18 Dec 26 2009 at 12:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, here's my unnecessary two cents:

What was the 2hour ability in FFXI originally designed to be used for? There are exceptions, but almost to a job, the 2hours are geared towards an emergency "oh crap save us" button. The massive potential of the 2hours has been too much of an incentive to the player population to abuse the system. SE added a two hour cooldown presumably to curb the use of 2hour abilities for normal events, but the players turned out to be to drunk on the power to care about the two hour timer. As other people have pointed out, this forced SE into a corner and made them design major event battles around 2hour usage.

My solution, which, admittedly has no relevance since I'm not exactly in SE's confidence, would be to add a major penalty to the ability, rather than a bothersome timer. Let the players hit up their "oh crap" ability any time they want, but make it too expensive (metaphorically) to use in any situation except an emergency.

One possibility would to have a form of weakness, where you exhaust yourself after using your 2hour, and cannot attack or cast/use spells/abilities for 5-10 minutes. People could use their "oh crap" abilities to get out of a jam and save themselves from death, but using it in a planned out fashion would be impractical. Also, balance it so the benefit of the "oh crap" ability is less than the benefit you would get from actually meleeing/casting for the duration of the sickness. You would be doing much greater damage/dodge/invincible/whatever for a short period of time, probably enough to save yourself from death, but unless it's an emergency, you're better off just doing business as usual.

Edited, Dec 26th 2009 1:35am by Hulan
#19 Dec 26 2009 at 2:12 AM Rating: Good
2 hour abilities were interesting in concept, impractical in execution.

The idea adopted by most players was to save their 2h for an emergency. That meant they hardly got used, or they'd get used for the final chain of an xp party if the group was going to be disbanding.

It didn't help that there were classes whose 2h could be wholly worthless. RNG EES miss. Ya. That was awesome. For a long time, DRG option to summon their wyvern was based on their 2h. Summon your wyvern only to have it die to a couple of bomb tosses in a row 5 minutes later? Go back and sit on the steps in Jeuno, ya gimp bastid. (Yes, that was eventually changed in one of SE's famous implementations of, "Ya, we nerfed you into obscurity a couple of years ago and now that you've had a good, long time to sit and think about what we've you've done, we'll give a little something back so that maybe it will take less than 20 hours for you to find a group.")

I would imagine that with slightly better gear and more refined strategies, the use of 2hrs in a lot of the fights I was familiar with might have changed, but fights like Suzaku that shells wouldn't attempt without an RDM/DRK were pretty good examples of a broken mechanic being leveraged to clear broken content.

I don't personally care to see 2hrs revisited in FFXIV. It seems to me like another one of those things that is just as well left in the past. You don't need an OP move and ideally content wouldn't be tuned around it being a necessity.
#20 Dec 26 2009 at 2:46 AM Rating: Good
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Players balance the encounters around them not SE, nothin in the game requires your 2hour in order to defeat it, (dynamis lord being the closest). Players decide to win easy by everyone 2 houring, its not a requirement by SE on anything.


That's the thing, SE has taken the "balance around no 2 hours" route, and when you use the 2 hours, it makes the fight easier than it should be. If you design a fight around using 2 hours, you'd have 1 legit attempt every 2 hours. I don't think SE wants all their content being knocked down a couple difficulty levels, nor do I think they want them to be attempted every 2 hours.

They'll need to find a balance, IMO.

Quote:
Are you saying that instead of 30secs of Hundred Fists, you'd rather have 15secs of Fifty Fists every hour? That doesn't make a lot of sense, imo.


Yeah, that's what I'm saying. How doesn't it make sense? You simply get a similar, although weaker, version of the ability every hour, instead of the old version, if we use this hypothetical.

Quote:
Let's say you've got a Monk. Your 2 hour is 100 fists. But say you don't like the idea of a 2 hour, so SE decides to make it have a shorter cooldown and be less powerful. They take away 100 fists and give you Raging Fists. Which, you already had. Essentially, the watered down 2 hours have already been implemented into the game (from an FFXI perspective), they're weapon skills. If they gave you a weapon skill instead of the 2 hour, then you'd just have two very similar weapon skills and you'll never use the one. So why not just keep the more powerful version of the weapon skill for when you need it?


I think that's a very poor example. It would be more like 100 Fists on 2 hour cooldown, vs XX Fist on a XX cooldown. Same basic idea, just different duration/cooldown.

I enjoy the 2 hour abilities, but I'm having a hard time deciding if they're an "OH SHI-" button, or a "Let's make this fight super easy" button in an exp party(obviously might not be the same in a raid environment). If I popped Invincibility on my PLD, I didn't have to worry about anything. I wasn't getting hurt, I wasn't losing hate. I just had to hope the DD killed the mob before it wore off, and by then, chances are the healer was fine.
#21 Dec 26 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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2 hours were not designed as an emergency move, or designed to make stuff easier. It was designed to make each job more unique. Players decide to only use them in emergencies or to make stuff easier, that doesn't mean they were designed that way. You really think drg call wyvern was designed for an emergency, or to make things easier? No I doubt it, they were just abilities put in to make each job even more different.

If players use them or not is on them, I don't think abilities should not be added just because players doesn't use them every fight. Everything in the game doesn't has to be used or done just because the timer is up.

With abilities like this, SE does have to design bosses so they are not easily defeated by just the 2 hour approach. I think SE has learned a lot from FFXI though, and they will be smarter this time around. Also, 2 hours alone didn't change anything, it was 2hours, combined with the fact that people has gotten so much stronger from gear and merits, combined with the fact that cor can reset 2 hours. 2-3 years ago, everyone could 2 hour and you would still get owned by everything, even stuff thats a cake walk now like fafnir. Also abilities like souleater and weapons like the kraken club has added to the boss difficulty problem. I doubt SE would make the same mistakes as far as the game goes.
#22 Dec 26 2009 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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2 hours were not designed as an emergency move, or designed to make stuff easier. It was designed to make each job more unique. Players decide to only use them in emergencies or to make stuff easier, that doesn't mean they were designed that way. You really think drg call wyvern was designed for an emergency, or to make things easier? No I doubt it, they were just abilities put in to make each job even more different.

If players use them or not is on them, I don't think abilities should not be added just because players doesn't use them every fight. Everything in the game doesn't has to be used or done just because the timer is up.

With abilities like this, SE does have to design bosses so they are not easily defeated by just the 2 hour approach. I think SE has learned a lot from FFXI though, and they will be smarter this time around. Also, 2 hours alone didn't change anything, it was 2hours, combined with the fact that people has gotten so much stronger from gear and merits, combined with the fact that cor can reset 2 hours. 2-3 years ago, everyone could 2 hour and you would still get owned by everything, even stuff thats a cake walk now like fafnir. Also abilities like souleater and weapons like the kraken club has added to the boss difficulty problem. I doubt SE would make the same mistakes as far as the game goes.


I agree that I don't think SE is going to make the same mistakes as last time, but I'll have to disagree about 2 hours being emergency abilities, at least in particular cases. Invincibility and Benediction being the two in mind. Any of the DD 2 hours can be argued.
#23 Dec 26 2009 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I doubt there will be 2 Hour abilities. They're moving away from the mass time thing I think. I think longest CD's we'll see is 15 min, 30 min tops.
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#24 Dec 26 2009 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay, I understand the problem a bit more now. I never got to endgame, so I can't have any insights on that end. Most of my time was spent XPing and doing missions/quests, where I felt 2 hours fit really well. Your party is hurting and you whip out the 2 hour to save the day, but just barely. And this was 2 years ago, so it's possible I didn't have the same "cookie cutter" requirements that now exist.

Plus my 2 hour, for the most part, was 100 fists, so I definitely can't complain about it's functionality.
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I will wake up at six a.m. again.
and I will find my way to the front door
like a soldier crawling through the smoking carnage.
smoldering bodies at my feet,
I'd love to stick around, but I've got someone to meet.
and I will put my best foot forward.
and I'll thank god I made it out of there
on the day when my new friends come.
#25 Dec 26 2009 at 6:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. How doesn't it make sense? You simply get a similar, although weaker, version of the ability every hour, instead of the old version, if we use this hypothetical.


It doesn't make sense to me because 30secs is not a lot of time to start with, much less 15. Think about it this way: You typically use your 2hr. in instances of emergency or absolute necessity; being aggro'd by an IT mob, or an HNM fight, etc. Even Hundred Fists, one of the better 2hrs, would barely carry you through the battle safely, if even so. Most Linkshells wouldn't do more than 1-3 fights per day, and two hours is more than enough cool-down for those events.

That being said, I do agree with the concept of your proposal - I just don't see how it would be practical to give you what you already had, just in shorter intervals.
#26 Dec 26 2009 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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That being said, I do agree with the concept of your proposal - I just don't see how it would be practical to give you what you already had, just in shorter intervals.


It's practical because then it's an ability/buff/whatever that provides a short term boost to attack/healing/etc. that can be planned for and strategically utilized in battle every X minutes instead of having it only every two hours. Despite the flamestorm this might bring about, I think this is something that WoW did well - there are many different abilities for different classes on relatively low timers (2-5 minutes, depending on your talents for said abilities) that would do more dmg for a dps, increase healing/spellpower and/or manage mana spending for casters, and then damage mitigation abilities for tanks. You could pick and choose when you'd use these in battle so that if a tank (for example) knows a big damage boss move is coming up, they could pop cooldowns to best do their job. And from what little SE has told us of the combat system, they want battles and longer encounters to be more strategic. A lower cooldown/smaller effect ability sounds far more like what they're aiming for than a 2hr.

The 2h hour ability wasn't designed with this tactical play in mind, imo. Not to mention, the abilities weren't balanced AT ALL between the classes. Thf (my first 75 and my love until the bitter end, even after 5 other 75 jobs) had an "oh shi-" 2hr. There was NO benefit for the party, alliance, or help towards finishing a fight in most cases. Thf was a threat controlling job initially but also a DD. A crappy 2hr like that prevented thf from being good for anything but sata skillchains endgame (oh, and TH whoring. But that's a given ;) ), whereas other jobs - like mnk, sam, war, blm, rng (if it hit), drk to some extent - all had dd type abilities that increased their dps. It pigeonholes the jobs that will put out more damage and excludes those who can't.

Even if we are to use the argument that SE didn't design the encounters around 2hrs, it's a little foolish that they didn't take them into account. If you have huge moves like that, you need to figure out where they're going to get used for harder content. And if players are using them in a way you hadn't expected, you need to adapt - either change the abilities or change encounters. If they are going to include 2hrs or similar long cooldown abilities, I really hope they consider having two for each class - one defensive and one offensive so that all classes have a chance to equally contribute to their respective roles in gameplay.

That being said, people keep saying "if the take 2hrs out of the game". Reminder: this isn't FFXI. From what I've read overall, the community doesn't want this to be FFXI. Let's let SE show us what they have before we fall back on FFXI mechanics.
#27 Dec 26 2009 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Despite the flamestorm this might bring about, I think this is something that WoW did well - there are many different abilities for different classes on relatively low timers (2-5 minutes, depending on your talents for said abilities) that would do more dmg for a dps, increase healing/spellpower and/or manage mana spending for casters, and then damage mitigation abilities for tanks.


I've never played WoW, so I can't really relate. However, there are plenty of those 'low-timer' abilities already in place for most jobs in XI -- Focus, Hasso, Warcry, Berserk, Jump and Souleater to name a few. Mages have things like Divine Seal, Elemental Seal, Convert, etc. The reason these things aren't more powerful and/or more common is probably due to the threat of imbalancing.
#28 Dec 26 2009 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow gives each character like 10 different skills at least to use that are on varying cooldowns, most 3-10 sec long, some do damage, some transfer hate, etc. FFXI gives things like hasso or steal. The only attacks you get in FFXI are weapon skills(mostly, I know there are jumps and such) which means the majority of the time you're autoing.

One can see they've moved away from the mass autoing and what not from the trailers.
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#29 Dec 26 2009 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I've never played WoW, so I can't really relate. However, there are plenty of those 'low-timer' abilities already in place for most jobs in XI -- Focus, Hasso, Warcry, Berserk, Jump and Souleater to name a few. Mages have things like Divine Seal, Elemental Seal, Convert, etc. The reason these things aren't more powerful and/or more common is probably due to the threat of imbalancing.


I totally agree with that. Especially for abilities like zerk and warcry that increase attack power for war or /war jobs. It's a huge boost.

I realized after I'd posted that I meant to mention low timer abilities in FFXI. My memory of the job abilities is slowly leaving me, so I'd forgotten about specific ones. Regardless, more what I meant about low timer abilities is not that FFXI didn't have them so much as I'd rather see a number of different kinds of low timer abilities in the game for different scenarios etc. than something like a 2hr move. That way there's a greater choice and strategy when you go into a battle instead of the "blow everything you've got zerg" situation that I remember in many of the endgame fights (ie. Dynamis Lord, Bahamut v2, etc.). Not that WoW (and tons of MMOs out there) doesn't have more than it's fair share of those moments, and I know there will totally be times when it happens in any game... but SE has gone on record stating they want to add more of those types of choices to game play. So I'd like to see MORE of those abilities for us :)
#30 Dec 28 2009 at 10:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I like the idea of having 2 hr give you weakness once the effect wears off. It would definitely make it more difficult to plan a major fight around it, especially if it had multiple steps.
#31 Dec 29 2009 at 12:17 AM Rating: Decent
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My main problem with the 2 hour was that you started with it, no other job ability until like level 10 and no weapon skill. So the first experiences in the game are auto attacking and one ability on a 2 hour cooldown.
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#32 Dec 29 2009 at 1:03 AM Rating: Good
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Zemzelette wrote:
There really isn't anything wrong with the idea of 2 hours from the player's perspective. It's problematic from a design standpoint. The gap between "normal" abilities and super-powerful attacks is their defining allure, but that's what makes them so difficult to craft an encounter around.

Let me use a hypothetical:

The player is capable of 2 attacks. There's nothing fancy going on here, they only differ in the amount of damage they do and their cooldown. Your tasked with creating a Boss enemy for this game.

Player's Attack 1 does 20 damage, it takes 1 minute to cooldown.
Player's Attack 2 does 1000 damage, it takes 1 hour to cooldown.
How much HP do you give the Boss?

Take the same scenario, and switch it up a bit.
Player's Attack 1 does 20 damage, it takes 1 minute to cooldown.
Player's Attack 2 does 80 damage, it takes 5 minutes to cooldown.
How much HP do you give the Boss?


The second question you might be able to take a stab at. 200 HP puts you at about a 6 minute boss battle. If you never touched Attack 2, the encounter could take as long as 10 minutes. Pretty long, but manageable. If you lost the fight, you could wait the 5 minutes to make the encounter easier, or you could just jump right back on the horse. If you open with your strongest attack as folks are apt to do, your strongest attack is available to deliver the satisfying final blow. It's long enough to be engaging, but it's over before you'd get bored with it, with the player's ability to choose preserved in every step. I can tie a bow on it, it's so nice and neat.


But the first? Well. Now your kind of stuck, aren't you?

You could make the Boss have 1100 HP, enough so that even with using your strongest attack you still get a nice 5-minute battle out of it, but that makes the encounter an incredibly lengthy 55 minutes if you just use attack 1 (if you can manage to survive that long). If you lost the fight, you can either spend the next hour plinking away with Attack 1 or twiddling your thumbs.

You could make the boss have 100 HP, enough so that you have the choice to defeat the Boss with your weakest attack and avoid this whole downtime business. But then the boss can potentially be instantly defeated. Not really worthy of the title 'Boss', ne?

The actual metrics behind something like an MMO is infinitely more complex than my simplified offering here, and there's a bit of mercy in the complexity of things. However, the idea of a super-powerful attack is fundamentally flawed, and that aspect rears it's ugly head more often than circumstance obscures it. As much as I find the idea interesting, it really is better in theory than it is in practice.



Edited, Dec 26th 2009 1:24am by Zemzelette


**** of a nice post. Very spot on.
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#33 Dec 29 2009 at 1:56 AM Rating: Good
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Seems like I'm in the minority here, but I liked the 2 hours. I felt like they made the classes feel more unique.

I actually really hate the system that you see in WOW, where you have all those skill toolbars, and abilities refresh like every 10 seconds. Using a skill that adds 2% dmg to your attack over and over in rapid succesion is extremely tiresome to me. Better to space things out a bit, so the player can actually think about something other than spamming CTRL 1,2,3,4.... constantly, IMHO.

Edited, Dec 29th 2009 3:06am by Eske

Edited, Dec 29th 2009 3:08am by Eske
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#34 Jan 03 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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since XIV will be based on skill/weapons perhaps they'll make unique/rare weapons hold very special "2hr-like" abilities. They could make them for the end of some epic quest-line similar weapon-skills in FFXI?
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#35 Jan 03 2010 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
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It was an interesting concept but I think it was a waste of code. Honestly it was an ability that everyone hoarded for an emergency so it was barely ever used.
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#36 Jan 03 2010 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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netglen wrote:
It was an interesting concept but I think it was a waste of code. Honestly it was an ability that everyone hoarded for an emergency so it was barely ever used.


See, I kind of liked that rarity. It made the 2 hours feel...special, y'know? When people were breaking out their 2 hours, something interesting was probably going on.
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#37 Jan 03 2010 at 11:31 PM Rating: Good
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30-60min CD is more than adaquate for "emergency use".. anything longer just inflates the feel of how important the ability is...
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#38 Jan 03 2010 at 11:35 PM Rating: Good
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I'd be just fine with a 1 Hour Ability.
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#39 Jan 04 2010 at 2:39 AM Rating: Decent
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We're talking about 2hrs in a XI concept, so keep in mind that all job's 2hr's aren't applicable here.

It seems pretty clear from the discussion that there are 2 distinct uses of these types of skills. the "o Shi-" moment (Second Wind) and the superWTF ability who's use is planned in major encounters.

in FFXI, they lumped both of these skill types into the "2hr", with varying degrees of usefulness.

In my opinion, there should be abilities that each class can use in both of these situations. There should be options when the party is in serious trouble from biting off more than it can chew, and I think there should also be abilities that players can save for tactical use against the dungeon boss, or salvage chariot or whathaveyou.

A thought I had for the O shi- ability, was have a latent trigger on it. This falls in line with the use of a lot of abilities already. Invincible, perfect dodge can only be used at critical health. Manafont and benediction can only be used when out of mana, the time they are regularly used already. This still has the flaw that if, say, the tank is still holding hate, but is going to die eventually from too many adds, the DDs can't EES, or HF to help save the day unless they've already taken damage, but from my experience, when these types of situations arise, everyone is usually pretty beat up, and especially now that they've said there will be more focus on many VS many, it will be more likely people have taken a lot of damage before the O SHI button gets hit.

The other use, is the proactive use against something planned. soul voice, chainspell, souleater+blood weapon are all VASTLY more useful when used methodically, and if **** has already hit the fan, none of these will do much good.

Either way, I think all classes should have a big, impressive ability for each situation, probably on a relatively long timer, or interesting trigger mechanic, but 2 hours is a long time, and considering combat seems to be sped up toward the pacing of other MMOs on the market for FFXIV, I imagine the cooldowns will follow suit. More likely we can expect 30 minutes to at most an hour for the longest cooldowns.

If they are divided up in this manner, SE should have a better grasp on balancing abilities, so we don't have things like Call Wyvern, Azure Lore, Overdrive, etc.
#40 Jan 04 2010 at 2:49 AM Rating: Decent
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The problem with having powerful 2hour abilities is it means that all "valuable" monsters have to be balanced with consideration to the 2hour abilities. Then you end up designing a mob that's not -too- easy to beat, even with 2hour abilities. The problem is that you often end up with a mob that is a little too -hard- WITHOUT them. Then people end up in situations where they wait 2 hours so they can use them.

And in that sense, really, the longer the recast, the worse. One hour is reasonable enough-- half an hour is better.

In general, waiting long periods of time is not strategic, and so should not be vital to the winning strategy.

Though maybe there's a point where it's just so long that people won't even bother. A week long recast? I can see people telling their guild to save them for a super important fight, but would people depend on having them available for smaller things? Obviously not as often, I guess, but hmmm... it would probably only be a little less bad.
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#41 Jan 04 2010 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I gotta say I'm in the "I like 2hours" club. Like it was said before, when somebody uses a 2hour you know something interesting is going to happen. It adds a dash of flavour to a fight when you're getting beat down... everybody is down to red hp, enfeebled and boom - Benediction - the entire party is suddenly saved. The thief pulls way too many mobs, he's getting beaten on badly, people try to help but it's a one-sided battle.. chainspell escape! (or if everybody has died... chainspell raise!). Or when I'm playing Paladin and I suddenly lose shadows and get smacked to 10hp... Invicible! It's just such a satisfying feeling to use an omgwtf ability.

I can't think of that many fights where you really wouldn't wanna attempt without 2hour (but you can also re-attempt within 2hours).

Suzaku is defeatable without chainspell stun, it's not that hard (requires co-ordination though, and two rangers for shadowbind). Um, Diabolos prime for sure. Bahamut, uh, some missions - depending on your strategy. I don't really think it was a huge issue, I've played for 5 years and there hasn't been many occasions where I've had to say ********** we can't reattempt this fight for another 2hours". It's more like "this fight will be harder now, but I think we can still do it". There isn't even many 2hours that are essential to use in fights. It's not as if a Paladin can no longer tank hard fights without invicible, or samurai can't WS often without Meikyo, or a RNG can't do huge damage without EES. They're mostly supplments, and the only occasions where you need them also tend to be occasions where you don't need to perform the activity (I'm looking at you, zergs).

I think this is being blown a little out of proportion, I love the 2hour concept - and the game would certainly be very dull without these abilities. 2hours to me most often mean I can wander an area with a single safety net, should my invis drop at a bad time - not something that I would use to make missions super easy.

I think too many people have Astral Flow and zergs in their mind, that is the only time you'd really want everybody to have their 2hour. In other situations they just add a little extra safety net. An extremely fun safety net (holy crap I just soloed a T with Meikyo Shisui! or Wow! I survived on 10hp thanks to Invicible!)
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#42 Jan 04 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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I believe the 2HR abilities were there for tough situations or.. "oh **** we are getting our asses kicked" moment.

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#43 Jan 04 2010 at 11:51 PM Rating: Default
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I really hope that SE avoids 2 hours period. It was a waste of time and really not useful at all. It literally gimped us as players and allowed no skill to be demonstrated.
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#44 Jan 05 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Since 2 hour more or less was just a different take on the "limit" system as always, I think they'll go for something new.

We've had a lot of systems already. Critical attacks at low HP, Limit Breaks, Trances, Overdrives, 2 hours, etc.

They probably would go back to some kind of charge system next I think. Probably something to make people participate more actively in fights.
#45 Jan 09 2010 at 3:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I never liked the concept of 2Hours. They either rarely got used in regular parties, or we required to clear content. What if the power of a special ability was based on the last time you used it, like charging. The longer you wait to use 100 Fists, the longer the duration, or the quicker your attacks were while under its effects. The charge could be tiered. If you wait 5min you get a 5 sec duration, 10min you get a 10sec duration. 1 hour, you gets a 1 min duration. The longer you can hold out without using it, the more powerful it becomes, however if you used it at 9min you are dropped to the 5sec duration.

This doesn't really solve the content being designed around 2Hour abilities. It's just a thought, the last thing I want to see is a group waiting 2hours to fully charge their 2Hour abilities before even making an attempt at a boss. But at least that means you're doing something while you spend 10hours in jeuno looking for a group.
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#46 Jan 09 2010 at 4:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Since 2 hour more or less was just a different take on the "limit" system as always, I think they'll go for something new.

We've had a lot of systems already. Critical attacks at low HP, Limit Breaks, Trances, Overdrives, 2 hours, etc.

They probably would go back to some kind of charge system next I think. Probably something to make people participate more actively in fights.


ummm.... no. did you completely forget weapon skills?/skill chains? they were FFXI's version of limit breaks... which was a charge system in the sense that you needed to build up your tp and wait for everyone else to do so too. did you actually ever play the game? or just jump into this topic for the lulz? o.0
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#47 Jan 09 2010 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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You could charge 100% tp easily in one fight. Last time I checked you weren't blowing limit breaks and overdrives every battle. (Unless you fully unlocked the final weapons with Triple Overdrive or something) I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss 2Hours being that type of attack. They were a ability to pop on tough fights or when things got ugly. Just a thought.
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#48 Jan 09 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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depending on the game, the difficulty to achieve a "limitbreak" varied, but never to a degree that could ever be compared to FFXI's 2hour abilities. the skill chains were a far closer version of it and, though if you want to argue we can build up TP to quickly.. then how about any of the 5-10min battle abilities? though tbh, anyone doing a skillchain at 100TP instead of waiting for a bit more generally wasnt making the most of it from what i remember.. in which case it'd take longer to build up.
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#49 Jan 11 2010 at 4:52 AM Rating: Good
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How were 2 hours stupid? It makes a lot of sense to have something like that. You've battled hard for a while and all of a sudden enemies are starting to overtake you, so you give it that one last push and beat the @#%^ out of everything. Do you really have to be able to 100 fists every 20 minutes? No... you don't even need to do it every 2 hours, but it's nice to have it if you need it and they absolutely need to have some sort of limit on how often you can utilize it.


well, the thing about abilities is that theyre designed to be used. cooldowns are a way of making sure an ability isnt used too often (so as to trivialize the game). its basically a check on the power of the ability, and thus you have the oft-followed wisdom of stronger abilities incurring longer cooldowns while weaker abilities incur shorter ones.

the problem with 2hrs that i see is that theyre too **** good. yeah, you can use them as an "oh ****!" button, but with such a long cooldown, how do you know a worse situation isnt just around the corner sometime in the next 119 minutes? no, this current "oh ****!" situation is bad, but its not bad enough for me to warrant using my 2hr on! i need to save that for something REALLY big!

and that, to me, is the problem with two hours. instead of having an ability i wont use for fear that itll be down when i need it, id like to have an ability i could use that would help strategically if i used it correctly. a two-hour cooldown on an ability allows for a LOT of power, so when that ability is ready, its quite strong. but when its not, its useless. instead of such a black-and-white difference, id like something thats good when used right. something that requires knowledge and a modicum of skill to use to its best effect, instead of a button i press to Keep The World From Going Asplode.

the longest cooldown i can see being effective for an ability is thirty minutes. instead of, say, fifteen seconds of 100% crit rate (war mighty strikes 2hr) maybe make it so the next weapon skill is a guaranteed crit on a five minute cooldown. you get about the same effect over the long term, but with the shorter cooldown you actually get to use it more, and you dont feel compelled to "save" it for that ********* of "oh ****!" situations. you can then use this powered-down ability more intelligently, such as ensuring that a higher-con enemy that is accidentally pulled gets hit with a big skillchain.

and so on and so forth.
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#50 Jan 11 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Eske wrote:
Seems like I'm in the minority here, but I liked the 2 hours. I felt like they made the classes feel more unique.


I really liked the idea of the 2 hours, they were party savers. Some people complained certain ones weren't useful... I think certain 2hrs weren't useful except when used selflessly. I do understand a lot of them weren't 100% useful when solo and amazing for a group or vice versa. With some minor tweaking it could be an even more amazing system. One thing the Square does right (usually) is standing out from the crowd with a unique game play element... you know the thing that if some other company would we'd call a gimmick.

I look forward to whatever they have planned, but I hope it's something similar to the 2hr system in XI. Maybe more on a 45 or 30 minute timer, but something powerful yet non-gamebreaking.
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#51 Jan 11 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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I liked the 2hr abilities in FFXI.

Being able to save the party with Invincible, Hundred Fists was great in solo battles as well as helping with troublesome mobs in parties.

And Summoners 2hr was often a good strategy in boss fights.

Some jobs 2hrs were not as useful so a better balance would be nice.

One thought I had was if in FFXIV the equivalent to the 2hr could be a summon. Rather than a SMN job, all players have a summon, like in some other FF games. Maybe depending on their job/weapon or maybe summons you can gain and equip.

Then when the dodo hits the fan, BAM! Call your summon out to help.

Although this would mean losing SMN as a job, which some would not agree with.
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