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FFXIV crafting idea to counter RMTFollow

#1 Dec 24 2009 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I think everyone who played FFXI for any period of time knows how much RMT disrupted the crafting process. My idea is to take advantage of the durables system in place when selling off food, armor, weapons, tools, etc. We know that FFXIV will allow the crafter to sign/customize their wares. What if it was more feasible to go though a real life person than to buy junk on the AH.

For example, Joe crafts a blue tinted Hauby +1 especially designed to take more of a beating than your standard run-of-mill armor. Instead of a "luck" factor for HQ gear, you as the crafter would control that by your skill/resources used in making it. So in essence, you could create Hauby+1 all day 100% of the time until your tools broke or you run out of the material required to make it. The HQ would require higher grade items to craft the higher quality piece of gear.

This is where the RMT solution works. Let's face it, most of the sales on the AH are controlled by RMT. It could be shihei tools or food, but it's very clear it's impossible to control them. So I propose that whichever system SE uses to sell goods without personal contact be limited to standard NQ stuff.

For the crafters that work their tail off to sell their new potions, armor, weapons, buyers will seek them out this time. Those that are suspected as being a RMT won't generate very many sales. Who would want a RMT person's name on their gear, seriously? This solution works for everyone except the RMT. Crafters can spend their time/resources making goods that you couldn't find just anywhere. By removing the "luck" factor of a HQ, the economy would be much more balanced.

#2 Dec 24 2009 at 4:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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It fixes RMT at a certain stage, but RMT would just move to farming the materials required to make the HQ's and wouldn't even worry about making the HQ itself.
#3 Dec 24 2009 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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Only way crafting can be successful in the long run is if NM drops never outclass them. Until then, they're just temporary items that get resold, or in the case of that being an impossibility, may just get outright skipped until some get their upgrade drop if prices are unreasonable.

Honestly, I'd prefer if mobs rarely, if ever, dropped a finished product, but instead ingredients to get fashioned into one. From there, it's just a matter of making sure it can't be monopolized and fairly accessible so we aren't looking at like Star Earrings 2.0.
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#4 Dec 24 2009 at 5:40 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
Only way crafting can be successful in the long run is if NM drops never outclass them. Until then, they're just temporary items that get resold, or in the case of that being an impossibility, may just get outright skipped until some get their upgrade drop if prices are unreasonable.


Can you explain this in further detail. I'm thinking of the durable system in which I doubt we'll see goods being resold as much. What if we recycled goods instead of dumping everything. For example, an Archer could collect their spent arrows off the ground and a crafter could recycle the core components resulting in cheaper costs for the buyer. The same could be done with the brass from a gun. Imagine if the brass were refurbished and crafted into new bullets. This way the buyer would have a reason to look for a crafter instead of just spending more money on brand new materials. The crafter would sign up at their guild and offer their rates for repairing/refurbishing items. The buyer could check a list in the guild and see who offer this service including the rate. All we'd need is a simple icon to let the buyer know who is online(open for business) at a glance.

This system could cover all armor, shields, weapons, rings, tools, and even alchemy refills.

I like to see most of the materials sold by the Guilds and only to crafters who are proficient in that craft. We don't a repeat of those people that have mules there to buy out the guild. The higher your guild rating, the more materials you could purchase. If Joe blow walks into the Alchemy guild, they would only be able to purchase basic stuff for improving their skill. If I'm not mistaken, Guildeves has taken the crafting phase of MMM to the next level.

Back to the list of crafters maintained in the guild, the more you craft/sell, the higher your rating which places you higher on the list selling that particular item. If I like selling tanking armor, my rating would be higher for it. If I'm the guy who's known for crafting Hauby style armor, the list will reflect that.

Finally, I like to see a bio on the crafters. You could check what they do for fun and how they established their skills. Another purpose of this bio would be to sniff out the RMT. Because unlike legit players who party, do missions, other stuff for fun, RMT's only care about earning gil to sell.

Thoughts/suggestions??
#5 Dec 24 2009 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

This is where the RMT solution works. Let's face it, most of the sales on the AH are controlled by RMT. It could be shihei tools or food, but it's very clear it's impossible to control them. So I propose that whichever system SE uses to sell goods without personal contact be limited to standard NQ stuff.


I don't see how they would solve the problem. People will just shout in FF14-Jeuno/Whitegate about how they have +1 items or they'll park their bazaar in FF14-Rolanberry Fields for people to look through. No matter how much people hate RMTs, the RMTs can provide the item cheaper than the regular crafters because they produce everything in bulk.


Quote:
For the crafters that work their tail off to sell their new potions, armor, weapons, buyers will seek them out this time. Those that are suspected as being a RMT won't generate very many sales. Who would want a RMT person's name on their gear, seriously?


Again, simple economics here. If you can get cheaper items/consumables from an RMT, people will just go to them. I understand some people have some sort of an internal honor system where they won't buy from an RMT, but those people are far and few in between. How do you distinguish an RMT crafter from a regular power crafter anyway? In FFXI you go to the auction house to buy some shihei or whatever and see that they're all sold by the same player -- then you see where the player is located and they're off doing LS stuff in sky or sea or whatever.

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This solution works for everyone except the RMT. Crafters can spend their time/resources making goods that you couldn't find just anywhere. By removing the "luck" factor of a HQ, the economy would be much more balanced.

I'm not a big fan of random HQ items either. Um.. that is all.

Quote:

Honestly, I'd prefer if mobs rarely, if ever, dropped a finished product, but instead ingredients to get fashioned into one. From there, it's just a matter of making sure it can't be monopolized and fairly accessible so we aren't looking at like Star Earrings 2.0.


Eh, don't most NMs in FFXI drop crafting materials anyway (other than end-game mobs) like claws and cloths? In the end it doesn't really matter if it's the item or the material that is dropped. Wherever the bottleneck for obtaining the pieces is, that's where the RMT will be.

I guess a way to fix that would be to make it so that there are no NMs at all and all mobs of a certain species have a certain chance to drop materials for an item. Or another way would be to make it so that NMs have random spawns ANYWHERE in the world. This'll take the camping factor out of item hunting and turn it blind luck.

@ShadowEdgeFFXI
To have a thriving economy you need monetary 'flow.' If players could buy one arrow and reuse it then there's no point in crafting since a small number of crafters can create one arrow for every archer class and after that point there is no more business for them. If players can recraft spent items into usable items then they will just level their own crafting skill and not involve any other players. If there are no real consumables/money sinks and monsters drop gil, then there will be inflation as the gil builds up. WoW took a brilliant step towards reducing inflation by making everything in that game a money sink -- transport, reagents, auction house fees, repair fees, training, etc.

Quote:

Finally, I like to see a bio on the crafters. You could check what they do for fun and how they established their skills. Another purpose of this bio would be to sniff out the RMT. Because unlike legit players who party, do missions, other stuff for fun, RMT's only care about earning gil to sell.


I'm the kind of person who likes to sit around and craft all day. To me 'success' is not measured by how many +5 Holy Avengers I posses or what my level is, but by the number of gil that I have in my account. That is my idea of fun. How do you propose telling apart chinese players vs. chinese RMT or american players vs. american RMT? The chinese aren't the only ones who sell gil, you know..

Honestly, I think the best way to counter RMT would be to have SE-sanctioned RMT. You could do things like buy in-game money from another player by paying for their account for a month. I think EVE Online (and Wurm Online, for sure) has a system like this. The reasoning behind this is that people who buy gil will still buy gil regardless of the ToS or not. However, if they buy gil, they buy gil not from the RMT (who have no use for nontransferable in-game play time), but from their fellow players who will benefit by getting a month for free.

I'm sure there are a ton of players out there who have enough gil in the system where they would give up a month or two worth of in-game money to offset a small number of RMT players who hoard money for sale.

Best of all for SE is that they can charge a fee for buying time for other people so it's win for the buyers, win for the sellers, and win for SE.
#6 Dec 24 2009 at 11:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eh, don't most NMs in FFXI drop crafting materials anyway (other than end-game mobs) like claws and cloths? In the end it doesn't really matter if it's the item or the material that is dropped. Wherever the bottleneck for obtaining the pieces is, that's where the RMT will be.


Off the top of my head, I wanna say "finished product" drops far outweigh raw materials when it comes to NM drops. Sure, some are solely implemented for the sake of material production (like Amemet), but for every skin, another NM out there is dropping a Valkyrie Mask, Bounding Boots, Empress Hairpin, and so on. Sometimes NMs will have garbage drops like a Spider Web from that ******* spider in Altepa that you can just get elsewhere far more easily.

Otherwise, the bottleneck that'd inevitably be attacked is where the clause of fairness in accessibility comes into play. If something's gonna need a Behemoth Hide to synth up, there better not be one Behemoth spawning once every 21-24 hours. Moreover, if it's for something questionably gamebreaking, it shouldn't be easy to put on farm status. Balance through rarity should never be the focus of an item's acquisition, but instead the level of difficulty behind getting it without it solely falling into the hands of the random number generator.

How they go about this is up to them and the item itself. Could be a Leve you can participate in once a day. Could be a simple repeatable quest that spawns some NM after you kill 50 of its family type in a zone. Could be a force spawn off something crafted. Doesn't really matter as long as it's not content only a small fraction of the playerbase could hope to experience. I know I've mentioned this is another thread before, but I also don't want XIV's economy to get so heavily gil-centric that we turn around see things like Relics and Mythics where only people stealing LS banks or RMTing get one completed in a reasonable amount of time. Obviously, I'm also concerned about botting and the problems XI's claim system has wrought upon the game.

In a general sense, I'd kinda like to see HQs not exist, either. At least not as we know them. Instead, just have gear you can upgrade in phases not unlike the Haubergeon to Hauberk to Adaman Hauberk. Paths to advancement here could also vary, like maybe needing one to trigger a quest to get the next, simply handing it over to a more skilled crafter to upgrade, or some kind of abjuration/enchantment. Of course, people will still want the best, but such things should hopefully exercise a bit more fairness to the guy who can't farm 24/7 and hopefully cut down on market flooding as there'd be little reason to sell under material cost if there's greater goal in the original step of the upgrade chain. It'll still happen, I'm sure, just less likely.

We still know too little about their plans for the equipment system, though. Things like consumable ammo probably shouldn't exist since it often made playing a particular job unappealing or open the door for complaining about being stronger than other classes because paid more to play. In this case, you could just have your bow/crossbow/gun and then a generic secondary ammo slot where it just provides its base benefits infinitely. Ninja tools are probably trickier, but I wouldn't object to them just costing MP to use abilities/arts all Naruto chakra style.

Of course, I fully expect someone to translate all of this into, "Oh my god, you want an Easy Mode game where everything is just handed to you!" On the contrary, I'm interested in a game where everyone around isn't looking to take something away whenever they get the chance. Less penalties, reasonable rewards, and work worth doing without needless steps and limitations like JP midnights.
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#7 Dec 25 2009 at 12:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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SImply solution here guys. Make the BEST crafting stuff BoP, and BEST gear BoP. Yeah I know, a lot like WoW, but hey RMT-be-gone.
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#8 Dec 25 2009 at 3:30 AM Rating: Default
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InsideTheAsylum wrote:

@ShadowEdgeFFXI
To have a thriving economy you need monetary 'flow.' If players could buy one arrow and reuse it then there's no point in crafting since a small number of crafters can create one arrow for every archer class and after that point there is no more business for them. If players can recraft spent items into usable items then they will just level their own crafting skill and not involve any other players. If there are no real consumables/money sinks and monsters drop gil, then there will be inflation as the gil builds up. WoW took a brilliant step towards reducing inflation by making everything in that game a money sink -- transport, reagents, auction house fees, repair fees, training, etc.


That's what I was talking about or so I thought. A crafter needs material to make the item anyways. By allowing users to recycle their arrows, this would make the arrows easier/faster/cheaper for the crafter to make as well. Another thing I was thinking about. Archers are charged twice. Weapons break down(durable system) and need to be repaired plus you still have to pay for ammo. Compare that to say a Pugilist that only has to repair his claws. The gil sinks in FFXI never helped anything. The chocos and Limbus fee especially.

Quote:

I'm the kind of person who likes to sit around and craft all day. To me 'success' is not measured by how many +5 Holy Avengers I posses or what my level is, but by the number of gil that I have in my account. That is my idea of fun. How do you propose telling apart chinese players vs. chinese RMT or american players vs. american RMT? The chinese aren't the only ones who sell gil, you know..


That was the purpose of the bio. You might like to craft all day every once in awhile but you'll never be the same league as the RMT. You log off the game and the RMT just change shifts. I know because I often would go afk with filters and timestamp on just to check my theory. You know how you can check a player's title in FFXI, right. RMT's tend to have titles like for the gobbie bag quests. A legit Chinese player isn't going to do nothing but farm and craft all day and night, day after day, week after week. That will be reflected in their bio so you can tell who the RMT are and who isn't.

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Honestly, I think the best way to counter RMT would be to have SE-sanctioned RMT. You could do things like buy in-game money from another player by paying for their account for a month. I think EVE Online (and Wurm Online, for sure) has a system like this. The reasoning behind this is that people who buy gil will still buy gil regardless of the ToS or not. However, if they buy gil, they buy gil not from the RMT (who have no use for nontransferable in-game play time), but from their fellow players who will benefit by getting a month for free.


You realize that by SE "printing" selling gil, our money becomes less. The RMT inflation back a few years ago around Xmas happened because of so much currency artificially brought into the economy. I think the best thing SE can do is to make Guildeves a solid way to earn gil to support yourself.

Quote:

I don't see how they would solve the problem. People will just shout in FF14-Jeuno/Whitegate about how they have +1 items or they'll park their bazaar in FF14-Rolanberry Fields for people to look through. No matter how much people hate RMTs, the RMTs can provide the item cheaper than the regular crafters because they produce everything in bulk.


Well the craft system is jacked up in FFXI. The luck of the HQ and the flooding of low ticket items by RMT. If the price of the material is set and the random HQ is tossed out of the equation, prices should be more balanced. Besides, I know I wouldn't buy a new piece of armor from a RMT. The people that accepted a teleport by RMT usually became shunned by the community. Not only that, but SE is allowing us to customize the gear. That means we'll be able to change the color, look, design. It's not the same static gear piece like it is in FFXI.

Thanks for responding to the thread. I'm hoping with more discussion, we can come up with a better system.
#9 Dec 25 2009 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good
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shaani wrote:
SImply solution here guys. Make the BEST crafting stuff BoP, and BEST gear BoP. Yeah I know, a lot like WoW, but hey RMT-be-gone.


On its own, people just turn it into a shoutfest to sell before the loot auto-distributes. I know other games have made it so if you aren't actually participating in the kill, you'll never be able to loot, but there are times in my XI time where I've killed things like coffer mobs with my inventory deliberately clogged and just gave away to people who were looking for one if they dropped. I'd rather not see that go the way of the dodo, hence why I emphasize more on fair access over claims or super good luck.
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#10 Dec 25 2009 at 9:25 PM Rating: Decent
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You realize that by SE "printing" selling gil, our money becomes less. The RMT inflation back a few years ago around Xmas happened because of so much currency artificially brought into the economy. I think the best thing SE can do is to make Guildeves a solid way to earn gil to support yourself.


No no no!! SE isn't going to print any gil.

This is how this will work -- a player whips out their credit card and pays $20 for a 'Time Token' that appears in their inbox.

They take the token to the auction house and list it.

A player buys the token for x million gil and then goes and redeems the token at an NPC for a month's worth of play time.

Gil seller gets a month of play time.
Gil buyer get X amount of gil.
SE gets $5 more than they would've gotten if they'd just sold one month's worth of play time for $5.

Where do RMT figure into this equation? They don't. I imagine that there will be a plethora of players who wouldn't mind farming a little bit of gil to exchange for playtime, but not on the level where a certain group of players dominates a zone/spawn 24/7 for months on end.

This is pretty much exactly what SE is doing now by selling you some crappy pewter pendant or dongle and then giving you an in-game item, storage space, or some other benefit, but it doesn't hurt the economy.

Maybe this is what Crysta(sp) business is about.

Quote:
The people that accepted a teleport by RMT usually became shunned by the community.

I've never heard of this happening D:




Edited, Dec 25th 2009 10:33pm by InsideTheAsylum
#11 Dec 25 2009 at 11:12 PM Rating: Decent
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InsideTheAsylum wrote:

No no no!! SE isn't going to print any gil.

This is how this will work -- a player whips out their credit card and pays $20 for a 'Time Token' that appears in their inbox.

They take the token to the auction house and list it.

A player buys the token for x million gil and then goes and redeems the token at an NPC for a month's worth of play time.

Gil seller gets a month of play time.
Gil buyer get X amount of gil.
SE gets $5 more than they would've gotten if they'd just sold one month's worth of play time for $5.

Where do RMT figure into this equation? They don't. I imagine that there will be a plethora of players who wouldn't mind farming a little bit of gil to exchange for playtime, but not on the level where a certain group of players dominates a zone/spawn 24/7 for months on end.


There's just one flaw in your plan, who in there right mind would purchase a time token for 1mil gil when $15 dollars is cheaper? You could work 2 hours or less at your local MCD's and pay for your subscription. I don't see a way for SE to sell gil unless it's printed or resold from a banned account. Why would a legit player spend hours farming for more play time if they could spend less time(2hrs tops) to pay for the subscription in the first place?

The token idea is a good one though. It would be cool if you could help out a friend pay their balance if their funds are low without compromising their account data.

Edited, Dec 25th 2009 11:18pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#12 Dec 25 2009 at 11:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Well ok, there'll still be some non-sanctioned RMT, but since this is a legal route, I think many of the people who would otherwise buy illegally would suddenly start to buy legally.
#13 Dec 26 2009 at 1:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't doubt that one bit. The point I'm trying to get across is any RMT program endorsed by SE will only serve to cause inflation. Look at the inflation years ago from the RMT Xmas holiday clearance. Say you had 2mil in your bank and some gil buyer bought 10mil. It's proven those that fall into huge sums of money typically tend to spend it without worrying about cost. So the cost of all items went up as a result. Meanwhile that guy who didn't buy gil watched as the prices skyrocketed on everything so in essence his gil bank was less. 2mil life savings took you a lot farther pre-inflation.

So I really can't see a RMT plan by SE unless they're selling in-game items with no market value. I wouldn't be opposed if SE sold gil that was acquired from a RMT banned account though. That's the only balanced way I think of to make sure inflation doesn't creep into the market. Gil sinks are the lazy way out. Look how long it took for SE to remove the Jueno tax. I guess they finally figured out how stupid the tax was because everyone would just bazaar outside town for no tax.
#14 Dec 26 2009 at 2:19 AM Rating: Decent
Don't break the game for the sake of dealing with RMT. Deal with RMT by developing, implementing, and refining over time reliable means of identifying and sanctioning RMT accounts. Leave the game mechanics themselves alone as much as possible. The more restrictions placed on the legitimate players for the sake of addressing RMT, the more likely SE will see their subscription base dwindle over time.

Volunteering to get thumped with the inconvenience bat solely for the sake of combating RMT is a line of thinking that doesn't take into account that this is a new game designed from the ground up with addressing RMT in mind. The more SE can do towards that end that is transparent, behind the scenes, and doesn't involve banning legit players based on lazy behavior profiling algorithms, the more likely SE will be to minimize the impact RMT has on the game.
#15 Dec 26 2009 at 3:29 AM Rating: Default
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You can a) get rid of the RMT effectively, resulting in minor collateral damage, or b) deal with RMT ineffectively, resulting in no legit players getting banned in the process. Calling it "lazy" is never the right answer however. There is no completely perfect and failsafe solution (except in our utopistic thoughts of course).

I honestly wouldn't mind if say, 10 legit players got banned for every 100k players because of this system. Sucks for those indeed, but you would have nothing to worry about in the long run, since the chance that would happen to you would be negligible at best, and the game itself would be much more balanced in the process since SE wouldn't have to touch the game mechanics.
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#16 Dec 26 2009 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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I'm generally optimistic about XIV. But occasionally a former XI player will make a casual comments here and there that speaks to the years of terrible customer service they've been receiving without seeming to realize it. Whenever I seem to have settled into a cozy complacency with XIV, somebody will casually toss out a comment like this, and it's like a cold bucket of water over my head every time.

Sure, accidents happen.
The folks behind SE are only human, afterall. But if somebody rings up customer service with a perfectly legitimate grievance like "you've wrongfully banned my account after a half decade of fiscal loyalty", the proper response here is: "I apologize for the trouble, let me fix that right away".

No ifs, and or buts.
We aren't eggs, this isn't an omelet.

Edited, Dec 26th 2009 2:08pm by Zemzelette
#17 Dec 26 2009 at 1:06 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Sure, accidents happen.
The folks behind SE are only human, afterall. But if somebody rings up customer service with a perfectly legitimate grievance like "you've wrongfully banned my account after a half decade of fiscal loyalty", the proper response here is: "I apologize for the trouble, let me fix that right away".


It sucks indeed, but the chance for you to get banned is negligible, so even if it continued in XIV it wouldn't touch even 1% of the playerbase.

Then there's the fact that a normal player calls for a GM maybe once a year if that. Even if the service is bad, is one bad experience enough to offset the year of playing an otherwise good game?

Perspective, people.
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#18 Dec 26 2009 at 2:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Innocents getting caught up in the RMT war shouldn't be accepted, but I'm also of the mindset of if you don't want to get accused for being one, don't behave like them. No automated program will likely ever be as discerning as a human, and with what's likely a few people assigned to monitor thousands, possibly millions of users in XIV, then one should also expect some automation to reappear.

Either way, don't do the same thing over and over and over, don't price fix, don't be one of those bastards that does nothing at an NM camp only to insta-claim it on pop when someone else has spent hours killing PH. Pick your poison on ways they've inconvenienced the players, but in a lot of ways, the game be designed so past problems aren't problems here at all.
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#19 Dec 26 2009 at 6:26 PM Rating: Decent
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It's much harder to profile RMT than people think. I have a friend who was leveling Ninja and he wanted to farm up enough money to buy every item, scroll, toolbag, etcetc that he needed so that he could go from 50-75 without stopping to farm for more. So what did he do? He camped Stropper Chyme 10-15 hours a day, every day, for a whole month for the stupid Archer's Rings. He went something 10/1000. The difference between him and an RMT character is almost negligible -- in fact, he was insulted for being an RMT many many times. Any sort of behavior analysis algorithm would sweep him up for being an RMT... but he wasn't!
#20 Dec 26 2009 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
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InsideTheAsylum wrote:
It's much harder to profile RMT than people think. I have a friend who was leveling Ninja and he wanted to farm up enough money to buy every item, scroll, toolbag, etcetc that he needed so that he could go from 50-75 without stopping to farm for more. So what did he do? He camped Stropper Chyme 10-15 hours a day, every day, for a whole month for the stupid Archer's Rings. He went something 10/1000. The difference between him and an RMT character is almost negligible -- in fact, he was insulted for being an RMT many many times. Any sort of behavior analysis algorithm would sweep him up for being an RMT... but he wasn't!


Again, the difference between your friend and RMT is that the RMT never leave. If for some reason they do, chances are a NM like Serket is up. While your friend might exhibited RMT behavior for a short time, SE tracks people for a long time to make sure that the individual is in fact a RMT player. If your friend camped a RMT mob such as Stropper Chyme for 6 months straight 24/7, it probably turn a few heads at the STF. Normal farming is not RMT behavior.

RMT are very easy to single out by most players. They never leave the zone, they are always /anon or very low rank if not /anon. If there are a few of them, they always d/c at the same time. The gear they're wearing is very gimp. No search comment, no bazaar comment. No LS pearl. RMT titles are typically quest related to earning gil such as more space in inventory or items worth a lot of gil. If you manage to get them to talk, it's broken English usually mixed with Chinese slurs.

Edited, Dec 26th 2009 9:16pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#21 Dec 26 2009 at 8:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
He camped Stropper Chyme 10-15 hours a day, every day, for a whole month for the stupid Archer's Rings. He went something 10/1000. The difference between him and an RMT character is almost negligible -- in fact, he was insulted for being an RMT many many times. Any sort of behavior analysis algorithm would sweep him up for being an RMT... but he wasn't!


If he spent 375/720 hours of a month doing nothing but camping stroper chyme.. a ban would have been a good thing. It's also about a 40% difference from being an RMT, which is easily noticeable from playtime alone. Not to mention all he would have to do is have an intelligible conversation in linkshell while camping(which he would have to do or else he would have gone crazy.) Your friends behavior is nothing like an RMTs, and it's easily differentiable.
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#22 Dec 26 2009 at 9:36 PM Rating: Good
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As other have said, there's more to the act. If the person never left Ordelles, then someone was coming to fetch the rings to sell. Was this money then going back to the camper or somewhere else and later to people the trader had no contact with beforehand? RMT rarely work alone, so what we see and how many are really there would probably surprise us.
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#23 Dec 26 2009 at 9:46 PM Rating: Decent
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D'oh. Accidentally hit reset form.

Abridged version of what I said:

RMT will just change their behavior. Multiple characters per account that rotate throughout the day or multiple accounts. Characters with names that mean something and linkpearls equipped.

You have to fundamentally change the game/system for the RMTs to go away, but I don't think it's possible. If people can 'cheat' (although tbh, I don't really consider it cheating :/), they will.

#24 Dec 26 2009 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
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Which has kind of been my point, too. Design the system so cheating is either unlikely or not worth it. At worst, the only RMT market that comes of it is account sales. Their impact is usually far more minimal than the economic assrape that can take place through various monopolization tactics.
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#25 Dec 26 2009 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
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A few notes:

The eve system is that they give a solid cap on their player extentions, about 500 mil (Expensive, but after gaining skills to do high rank missions, not a big deal).

last I played even, the price had settled right around half that price, at 250 mil. That means that $15 would translate into 250 mil eve cash. When one of the games largest clans was betrayed and had all of it's money (think it was like 100 billion or something) given to it's top rival, it had an actual monetary loss equivalent (turned into something like the group lost $6000 USD's worth in eve cash).

because EVE had a standard for how much cash game time was worth, and it was a very fluent commodity that had thousands of trades a day, it worked out well. It also allowed people to play for free that had been playing a long time, and newer players would sell the older players these Game time extensions in return for the 250 mil, which is a lot for a new player.

I don't like this system because it heavily benefits the older players IMO.


The other system that was mentioned about having 100% HQ crafts with HQ crafting items, and having crafting items be the most powerful armors in the game:

This is the system that Aion uses. This system is not very much fun. This system HEAVILY favors RMT's, because rare items are harder to get generally, and this means that RMT's will have the most of them, and will be able to set the market standard, either forcing people to undercut them or having a monopoly on the item.

In the end, this system drive up the price for expensive armors, and drives down the price for standard armors. The HQ items will be very expensive, and the LQ items will be sold to shops or sold in stacks for a small sum.

I honestly think that FFXI has a somewhat decent system going atm.

Having random HQ's with no "official" word on what affects the chances for HQ makes it unreliable, and as such, you don't see very many RMT's sitting around and crafting difficult armors, as you don't see them flooding the markets with them.

The ONLY thing FFXI has issues with would be rare drops that give outrageous benefits. Archerer's Ring, Leaping Boots, Emperor Hairpin, and the like have a statistically predictable drop rate, and could be counted on to drop. They fixed this issue somewhat by making them Rare / Ex, but having them still have a 1% drop rate really ****** me off.


So, as far as I'm concerned, keep the crafting system. Change the rare armor system from drops to be mostly exclusive. The thing I loved most about FFXI was the pride I got from going to a party, even if it was in the dunes, with my Auriga Xiphos, Lantern Shield, Phlegathons Trousers, Van Pendant, That accuracy earring, Battle Gloves, Travelers Mantel, Martial Slacks, etc.

I loved having Rare armor, and I loved it even more if it was exclusive. It signified that I put the time and effort into gaining my armor through hard work and perseverance.

Honestly, I hated seeing people with full +1 armor, and not a single piece of special rare armors.





In the end, I would prefer to see FFXI's crafting and drop system remain in tact, but with some minor changes to how it handles item drops, especially with quest items, and how those quest items reflect your ability to gain high level quests. No more bat wings, or zinc ores.


All quest items for any type of fame should be unsellable to the NPC's, and not sellable on the Auction Hall thing. Make them still available to bazaars.

I think also if you make sure that any special armor that is dropped off a mob with a less than 50% drop rate is also Exclusive, and possibly tagged as rare.


****EDIT****

Instead of just buyings putting up bids and sellers putting up different items for sale, You can put up Buy Orders and sell offers in mass.

So, I have 10,000 Arrows that I want to sell. I put them on the market for a price of 10 gil a piece. If there is a buy order for that price, it sells immediately, other wise, it'll sit there until someone puts up the money at that price.

Now, if I want to buy 10,000 arrows, I go to the market and put an order up for 10,000 at 7 gil a piece. My order stays up until someone buys it.

This system is in several games, but the one I like it in best is Puzzle Pirates. You can see on the list how much each order is buying / selling for. On top of that, you can see their affiliation to a Flag (group of captain's Crews) or individual crews.

This method would work well, Especially if you wanted to only deal with certain people or certain groups. I would really love it if your linkshell equivalent would be part of your label as a person in such a list.

It would also be nice to have this system to separate out people who want to buy a consistent supply of a basic item as opposed to a person trying to buy what they need immediately. This also helps set up people who are supplying, long term, large quantities of a good.

It can even help develop relationships between people as buyers and sellers, if you supply and they buy. Like an arrow crafter and a professional Archer.

Edited, Dec 26th 2009 11:28pm by MetalSmith
#26 Dec 26 2009 at 10:19 PM Rating: Good
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There were only 2 aspects of RMT that I can remember that hurt the game and one that actually helped the economy.

1: Camping rare spawn monsters. ( Easily fixed )
Don't have rare spawn monsters with long re-spawn timers ( Fixed )

However if this terrible mechanic must exist then here is how to do it right.
Lets take Argus from FFXI as an example and follow some easy steps to fix the monster so that it would fix the problem.

Argus would need to be changed into a forced spawn creature.

The trigger item has a 1/1000 or maybe even a 1/10000 chance to drop from any and all thousand eye monsters in the entire game.

If said item does drop you also have the option to sell this item on the auction house. If you posses or have sold this item at least once before then your chance to receive this item drops to zero for your credit card.

2: Buying Gil Selling Gil ( Not sure if this would work )
SE simply needs to sell an item for real money that allows you to get the next month for free. You can trade this item in game for its current going rate. This can also allow for items that allow you to bundle 3 to 6 months for free. How much Gil do you think someone would pay to have an entire year free? Its an interesting way for someone else to pay for your account effectively driving the price of Gil down and making it harder for RMT to set whatever price they want.

3: Heavy crafting and driving down prices
This aspect I actually found to be a good thing because it tended to drive down prices of basic goods like meatkabobs and shihi. The added competition made things easier on the majority of players. Allot of the other problems in this respect were related to the crafting system itself.

If this game were to go more along the lines of Ultima Online then weapons and armor would most likely degrade making most things, not only cheaper in general, but a consumable in nature allowing for an actual economy with true crafting professions to flourish.

I am just blathering at this point... heh..
#27 Dec 26 2009 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
3: Heavy crafting and driving down prices
This aspect I actually found to be a good thing because it tended to drive down prices of basic goods like meatkabobs and shihi. The added competition made things easier on the majority of players. Allot of the other problems in this respect were related to the crafting system itself.

If this game were to go more along the lines of Ultima Online then weapons and armor would most likely degrade making most things, not only cheaper in general, but a consumable in nature allowing for an actual economy with true crafting professions to flourish.

I am just blathering at this point... heh..


I was never into FFXI enough to get into hard core areas. TBH, I never have joined a really serious linkshell with any point to it.

That being said, I was constantly leveling up my low level jobs to around level 37-40, and then messing around with quests, etc. This is mainly because partying is such a pain these days, and I've lost interest in getting something to 75, and in soloing with the new FoV system.

really though, I like the idea of all armor's degrading over time. Copper, Brass, Leather, Lizard and Iron armor sets all have pretty steady prices. Firstly, they are low level and don't require much to get the items needed to craft them. Most can be farmed safely at level 25~. Second, these armors are common cheaper armors that can be bought quick and then NPCed or tossed out once you are finished. Third, You start getting to the expensive stuff that is worth getting a decent price on at 30, like Seer's Gear, Or centurions mail.

On that note, I would like to see them degrade from a lack of use unless properly stored, which would cost money.

In other words, if you have an old set of brass armor, it would degrade from lack of use. It would lose 1 level of quality every week it isn't used and / or refurbished. So, a +1 brass boot would turn into a regular brass boot after 1 week, then a -1 brass boot after 2 weeks. Then it would crumble or become a rusted brass boot after 3 weeks (unusable). After 4 weeks, it becomes so degraded that it has to be tossed, as it has no use.

Now, Have crafters be able to restore it's use only up to the regular status. So, if you have +1 gear, use it and keep it repaired to +1, once it loses it's high grade, it's gone forever.

Also implement some sort of damage degradation. As an item takes or deals damage, it loses it's quality. Quality depends upon DPS or on the number of hits it takes or time in combat or something. :D
#28 Dec 26 2009 at 10:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Part of the inflation, I think, came because of some other factors:
* Rusty caps could be NPC'd
* Items obtained through gardening and other HELM skills could be NPC'd

In those situations, a small amount of players really were abusing the system by creating gil out of thin air without matching gil-sinks that took money out of the system (transportation, consumables, etc). As much as I dislike RMTs myself, you have to admit that at the worst all that most of them did was monopolize a few mobs -- something that leads to price gouging on a few items, but doesn't lead to inflation across the entire spectrum.

Think about it -- how can you get the system to give you money in FFXI?
* Regular monsters drop a pittance. Giants in Delkfutts? Maybe 150G. Boss that drop more are far and few in between.
* Chests. About 1500G or so. Spawn once every 1-3 hours. Require a lot of farming to get the key to open it, or thieves tools that cost as much.
* Quests -- usually are very difficult and not repeatable, or require item farming. On the other hand, you could run through the avatar quests and get 10k gil a pop which is what I hear many players did back when 10k gil was a decent sum of money.
* World drops -- most are worthless as far as the NPC sale price is concerned, or are valuable enough that you won't be NPCing them.
* Gardening -- stick some items you got as world drops into a pot, and then literally grow money. (of course most of the time you wouldn't be NPCing them -- but sometimes!).

Money sinks in FFXI:
* Chocobos. Some weird supply & demand system in place for them. Most of the time are unavoidable :/
* Airship/ship fees -- but can be offset on the same trip via the Discerning Eye quest.
* Auction house listing fees / Area Bazaar fees - could be avoided by /s about items that you are selling.
* Scrolls - Most of them don't occur frequently enough as world drops leading to many people having to buy them from the NPCs.
* Some low-level equipment from the NPCs since the higher level NPC equipment is very expensive and has usually been supplanted by quest rewards or craftables much earlier.
* Consumables - but who really buys a Potion from an NPC for 1000G anyway?

Basically scrolls are the only unavoidable money sinks in this game. Realistically, chocobos and auction fees are also unavoidable, but there's really no other sinks in this game.

So if you compare the sinks vs. the sources you see that there are far many sources than there are sinks. I think the game could have a more stable economy by addressing this.

I have to say WoW did it better, but they really did -- they made the money sources available to all players unlike FFXI where to get to point where you can make lots of money from the environment you need to find the rare path that can be exploited or be a higher enough level that you can do the quests, HELM/farm mobs for NPC-able items. Basically in WoW you get money or valuable NPC-able for money items very easily, but that money also goes as easily as it comes.

FFXIV should go this route so that the economy is more resilient to large amount of money being dumped into the economy by RMTs -- all of it that is dumped is quickly recycled out of the system to various NPC and meanwhile players who didn't buy the money via outside routes can weather out the inflation by farming for NPC-purchasable consumables on their own.

tl;dr: Make mobs drop gold; make consumables be cheap; make items deteriorate in quality overtime, but be repairable.

Edited, Dec 26th 2009 11:58pm by InsideTheAsylum
#29 Dec 27 2009 at 12:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sure, accidents happen.
The folks behind SE are only human, afterall. But if somebody rings up customer service with a perfectly legitimate grievance like "you've wrongfully banned my account after a half decade of fiscal loyalty", the proper response here is: "I apologize for the trouble, let me fix that right away".


It sucks indeed, but the chance for you to get banned is negligible, so even if it continued in XIV it wouldn't touch even 1% of the playerbase.

Then there's the fact that a normal player calls for a GM maybe once a year if that. Even if the service is bad, is one bad experience enough to offset the year of playing an otherwise good game?

Perspective, people.


You're one to talk about perspective. Play a game for a couple of years only to get lolbant because something you did resembled RMT activity. We'll see how willing you are to have legit players banned for the sake of RMT countermeasures then.
#30 Dec 27 2009 at 12:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Armor, weapons, and tools will be degrading in FFXIV under the durable system. That being said, I think the best way to limit the number of RMT's is to make gil easier to obtain for your average player. I remember reading a lot of professionals that bought gil because they had no time to farm. Guildeves alone should keep your account above water. Because Guildeves appears to also incorporate the MMM system for crafting, I can easily see crafters being able to level without a huge investment.

Again the best way to lower the RMT population is to lower the need of buying gil in the first place. RMT's on my server are a joke now compared to years ago. All RMT seem to do visibly now is spam /tells to sell gil. Probably gil acquired from stolen accounts or crafting accounts.
#31 Dec 27 2009 at 5:37 AM Rating: Good
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Hmm. Yes, that's the carrot. And to add another whip to go with it: relentlessly permaban all players who ever bought gil. Then again, might be hard to prove this.
#32 Dec 27 2009 at 5:59 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
You're one to talk about perspective. Play a game for a couple of years only to get lolbant because something you did resembled RMT activity. We'll see how willing you are to have legit players banned for the sake of RMT countermeasures then.


Sucks for that guy, and that guy has a good reason to be against it, but with 0.01% chance I wouldn't be worried about that myself.

Edited, Dec 27th 2009 3:06pm by Hyanmen
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#33 Dec 27 2009 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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One of the best ways I think to deal with RMT would be to make all trade and mail transactions viewable by the public. That would light a fire under most peoples asses. :)

Can you imagine how much pressure people would put someone under for suddenly gaining a million gil 6 months ago off some dude named kgjkshgna? The entire reputation of your linkshell could become accountable for allowing him to join.

Another note: I think for those of you who are looking at durable armor system like Ultima Online. This kind of system differs so drastically from the old play styles of FFXI that you might not even want to think about the way things worked in FFXI anymore. Its a drastically different mindset and design philosophy.



Edited, Dec 27th 2009 12:49pm by thorazinekizzez

Edited, Dec 27th 2009 12:54pm by thorazinekizzez

Edited, Dec 27th 2009 12:55pm by thorazinekizzez
#34 Dec 27 2009 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Well yeah, but that's why this is FFXIV crafting ideas with a brand shiny new combat/item system, not ideas to fix FFXI :P

Quote:
Armor, weapons, and tools will be degrading in FFXIV under the durable system


What really? When did they say that?

Quote:
Sucks for that guy, and that guy has a good reason to be against it, but with 0.01% chance I wouldn't be worried about that myself.


Yeah except as you've seen from FFXI there's plenty of people who put their entire lives into the game for five years straight and then they get accidentally banned with no response from SE as to why. It's better to let some RMT slide than to accidentally ban some players, in my opinion.
#35 Dec 27 2009 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Saw mention of Aion and "guaranteed HQs" and I'll just point out that's not the case. There are synths that involve ingredients from NM drops, some of HNM caliber, that usually produce something a little above standard fare for that level, but a lot of these also have an additional HQ equivalent that's every bit a crapshoot of the RNG as XI's version. A number of Aion equipment synths also take in a pre-made item not unlike the Haubergeon/Hauberk/Adaman Hauberk comparison I made in an earlier post, but these also often have possible HQ outcomes, leaving the markets prone to flooding from irresponsible crafters looking for the big bucks who foolishly believe that because they maybe farmed a few materials, they're not losing money. Unfortunately, Aion also falls into the trap where dropped equipment from NMs is usually far superior, if not equal to stuff crafters can regularly produce. I know I'm currently stuff on the Expert Alchemy test that requires me to make an HQ from a previous HQ of which the materials for both are considerably rare and expensive at this point. 0/4 on the first step of it.

(In before EndlessJourney telling everyone I do nothing but defend Aion in every post I ever make...)

Ideally, one should be able to replace that luck element with just a bit more work. Again, that comes back to fairness in accessibility where the only reason one might not have something is because they haven't tried for it. Though, simply trying is a bit of murky reference since it could range from a soloable quest to something like CoP where you're @#%^ed if you don't score a static and have a perfect schedule.

Edited, Dec 27th 2009 3:54pm by Seriha
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#36 Dec 27 2009 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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InsideTheAsylum wrote:


What really? When did they say that?



Please tell me you were being sarcastic. The durable system for those that don't know was announced long ago. SE's reported that even crafters would have to fix their tools every once in awhile. A theory of mine entails crafters such as blacksmith, clothcraft, tanners taking over as the support class in FFXIV. So instead of being buffed by a BRD or COR, the crafter keeps your armor and weapons in optimal condition. That part is only a theory though.

Hey Seriha, let's stay away from Alchemy in FFXIV. Something tells ms leather and blacksmith will be in more demand anyway.

Edited, Dec 27th 2009 3:26pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#37 Dec 27 2009 at 3:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Nope, I hadn't seen that. Hah! Do you have the link to the complete source?

Quote:
leaving the markets prone to flooding from irresponsible crafters looking for the big bucks who foolishly believe that because they maybe farmed a few materials, they're not losing money


... ... ?

I still don't understand this argument. A market is a market. Yeah, some people may flood it, but that's capitalism -- it's all up to them price the items at whatever price they want.
#38 Dec 27 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
You're one to talk about perspective. Play a game for a couple of years only to get lolbant because something you did resembled RMT activity. We'll see how willing you are to have legit players banned for the sake of RMT countermeasures then.


Sucks for that guy, and that guy has a good reason to be against it, but with 0.01% chance I wouldn't be worried about that myself.


How thoughtful of you. SE would do well to take a page from the books of anti-RMT tactics employed by other MMO developers. There's no reason to inconvenience the playerbase in any substantial measure explicitly for the purpose of countering RMT. If you think otherwise, you're a fool.
#39 Dec 27 2009 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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InsideTheAsylum wrote:
Nope, I hadn't seen that. Hah! Do you have the link to the complete source?

Quote:
leaving the markets prone to flooding from irresponsible crafters looking for the big bucks who foolishly believe that because they maybe farmed a few materials, they're not losing money


... ... ?

I still don't understand this argument. A market is a market. Yeah, some people may flood it, but that's capitalism -- it's all up to them price the items at whatever price they want.


It's not capitalism, it's predatory. It's hit and run on the market where very rarely the producer cares about the long term effect. Oftentimes the only reason it's possible is because of RMT influence being present 24/7 to create a surplus of supplies that normally wouldn't be there. You might not give a crap if it means a good deal, but I remember, for example, when China started dumping some cheap steel in the real world economy and various plants around where I live here have had to shut down or lay off a good number of workers and this region is STILL suffering because of it. We can't just flip a switch and pay American workers like slaves (or a bot, if you want a gaming equivalent). Crafting isn't a charity, no matter how many may try to paint it as such.

Overall, I can understand market prices fluctuate. That's the whole supply and demand angle. No sane business goes into a market expecting a loss, though. There is no guarantee that a synth will HQ in FFXI as we know it. I've been there way too many times, and instead of coming out richer for my time, I have created a pile of junk because a market's been flooded with NQs that won't sell while ingredients creep higher because some don't give a crap because they've been blinded by that shiny 10% chance lottery ticket. Additionally, try to raise prices on NQs and you're an ******* to the rest of the server, sometimes even being accused of RMT or price fixing. If making something break even or slight profit is price fixing in the negative context of the word, though, I really wonder if these people actually craft.

So, yeah, personally gathering materials factors into the whole time is money concept. If by some freak of nature you can make more money farming a good to craft up and sell, then you should do it. Most of the time, you're just better off selling the farmed material. Crafters have never really had the power of XI's economy. It may spike a little at patches when new stuff is added, but eventually most synths fall back into the NQ loss and questionable profit on HQ basis. Heaven help you if you happened to be an Alchemist, too. SE just gives other crafts your synths for cheaper, makes events drop all your medicines, and pretty much antiquates what few pieces of equipment you could make. You just can't have dozens of people focusing on a small handful of synths.
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#40 Dec 27 2009 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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So.. what should people do? Collude and have a crafter-run oligopoly with price controls for NQ items? It's obvious that supply has far outstripped demand for most NQ craftable items in FFXI so the only way for crafters to make money is by trying for that rare and elusive HQ. You may call it predatory, but people want to make money now instead of waiting some indeterminate amount of time for the other guy's stuff to sell so that they can sell their item for just a little bit more. Selling things at a higher volume helps this -- would you rather sell 10 items for 5k in a week or sell 1 item for 6k per week?

FFXI's equipment/crafting system sucks, but it's silly to blame people who are constrained by it when they are personally trying to maximize their own gains because that is something that everyone does.
#41 Dec 27 2009 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
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InsideTheAsylum wrote:
Nope, I hadn't seen that. Hah! Do you have the link to the complete source?


I found one interview. Here are a few quotes and the link.

Quote:
Weapons will deteriorate, but will characters age?

We hadn’t thought of that! (He laughs) They won’t age, but you may be able to change their hairstyle.

Now that weapons have durability, will it be represented graphically?

It’s under consideration. We’ll decide after we’ve tried a few different things.

Having to learn how to take care of your weapon is a really interesting idea.

Though I said that “Aetherite” existed as a meeting point, it is also a place where blacksmith and adventures can meet up. It would be a burden to go back to the city to fix, but maybe there is somebody who can fix it at “Aetherite”. I’d like to offer users places to encounter.

Not only weapons but do shields also break?

Both of weapons and shields are consumption articles.

It’d be difficult to exchange items which are broken or exhausted between users. The price of new and consumed ones will be of course different.

Items may not be fixed depending on the skill of blacksmith. But it never happens that item will be broken because of that.


The link can be found at http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/ff14-content/interviews/dengeki-interview-tanaka-and-kawamoto/
#42 Dec 27 2009 at 9:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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InsideTheAsylum wrote:
So.. what should people do? Collude and have a crafter-run oligopoly with price controls for NQ items? It's obvious that supply has far outstripped demand for most NQ craftable items in FFXI so the only way for crafters to make money is by trying for that rare and elusive HQ. You may call it predatory, but people want to make money now instead of waiting some indeterminate amount of time for the other guy's stuff to sell so that they can sell their item for just a little bit more. Selling things at a higher volume helps this -- would you rather sell 10 items for 5k in a week or sell 1 item for 6k per week?

FFXI's equipment/crafting system sucks, but it's silly to blame people who are constrained by it when they are personally trying to maximize their own gains because that is something that everyone does.


XI's economy is a lost cause at this point. I'm more interested in not seeing it repeated in XIV, and basically steps that have gotten XI's to where it is now has been brought up. I think the only thing that actually hasn't been mentioned was the JP's head start over NAs and similar predatory practices a lot of them pulled to prevent competition from either skilling up or making it a pain for people to level and get gear upgrades to eventually apply to being competition later.

If you want to explain my concerns more simply, then I'm looking for cooperation and not competition. Call it an oligopoly if you will, but if cash is EVER the focus in a game, then it usually comes down to those who have the most time and/or lack of morals dictating the lives of the rest of the server. It's the very example of the theory of trickle down economics failing, and I dare say part of the bullsh*t that has the current world economy in such a recession. Goods are nothing if they're not changing hands, and currency is more than just money in a game like this. That's something I think a lot of people have lost track of in XI, too.

Edited, Dec 27th 2009 10:20pm by Seriha
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#43 Dec 27 2009 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for the link! I hadn't seen that one.

Quote:
Though I said that “Aetherite” existed as a meeting point, it is also a place where blacksmith and adventures can meet up. It would be a burden to go back to the city to fix, but maybe there is somebody who can fix it at “Aetherite”. I’d like to offer users places to encounter.


Fuu

I'm reading this as "Isn't it fun and realistic that if your weapon breaks when you're out in the middle of nowhere leveling then you'll have to treck all the way back to town to replace it? You all want realism, right? Well nothing more realistic than finding an anvil to have someone reforge your blade! Off you go to find an Aetherite!"
#44 Dec 28 2009 at 12:09 AM Rating: Good
InsideTheAsylum wrote:
Thanks for the link! I hadn't seen that one.

Quote:
Though I said that “Aetherite” existed as a meeting point, it is also a place where blacksmith and adventures can meet up. It would be a burden to go back to the city to fix, but maybe there is somebody who can fix it at “Aetherite”. I’d like to offer users places to encounter.


Fuu

I'm reading this as "Isn't it fun and realistic that if your weapon breaks when you're out in the middle of nowhere leveling then you'll have to treck all the way back to town to replace it? You all want realism, right? Well nothing more realistic than finding an anvil to have someone reforge your blade! Off you go to find an Aetherite!"


I'm guessing that there will be an aetherite "hub" in every zone specifically so that you don't have to go back to a major town to get your gear repaired. MMOs that feature durability damage have conveniently placed repair NPCs in every zone. Tuned "properly", the only time you should ever experience broken gear such that you've got no choice but to go and repair is if you've been grinding for an extremely long time without swinging by a town and/or you've neglected to repair your gear when you've been near a repair vendor. The same applies to those games who have implemented extra durability loss as a penalty for dying...you have to die an awful lot before your gear breaks.

Generally speaking (unless SE botches it) the only people for whom durability loss represents an inconvenience (ie. having to stop what you're doing to go repair) are the people who neglect to look after their gear properly. Putting a repair NPC in each zone means that even if you've forgotten to repair your gear for like...3 sessions...you're still never far away from a quick fix.
#45 Dec 28 2009 at 12:28 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:


I'm guessing that there will be an aetherite "hub" in every zone specifically so that you don't have to go back to a major town to get your gear repaired. MMOs that feature durability damage have conveniently placed repair NPCs in every zone. Tuned "properly", the only time you should ever experience broken gear such that you've got no choice but to go and repair is if you've been grinding for an extremely long time without swinging by a town and/or you've neglected to repair your gear when you've been near a repair vendor. The same applies to those games who have implemented extra durability loss as a penalty for dying...you have to die an awful lot before your gear breaks.


I sure hope you're right. My friend who played EQ for a long time doesn't like the durable system at all. The bad memories of having to leave a party to repair your equipment while the party waits there and does nothing. I believe he said the spoils were lotted by the PLD because of the armor costs. I'm really hoping SE doesn't mess this up.
#46 Dec 28 2009 at 1:58 AM Rating: Good
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:


I'm guessing that there will be an aetherite "hub" in every zone specifically so that you don't have to go back to a major town to get your gear repaired. MMOs that feature durability damage have conveniently placed repair NPCs in every zone. Tuned "properly", the only time you should ever experience broken gear such that you've got no choice but to go and repair is if you've been grinding for an extremely long time without swinging by a town and/or you've neglected to repair your gear when you've been near a repair vendor. The same applies to those games who have implemented extra durability loss as a penalty for dying...you have to die an awful lot before your gear breaks.


I sure hope you're right. My friend who played EQ for a long time doesn't like the durable system at all. The bad memories of having to leave a party to repair your equipment while the party waits there and does nothing. I believe he said the spoils were lotted by the PLD because of the armor costs. I'm really hoping SE doesn't mess this up.


As with all things FFXIV, there's always the possibility that SE will miss the boat altogether and create a durability system that is both so costly and tedious as to make the game a chore. I've encounter situations in other MMOs where someone winds up holding up a group to go repair 5 minutes into a run because their gear broke, but in those games it wasn't a function of a harsh durability damage scenario...it was a case of a player showing up to a group with gear already near broken. LOTRO and WoW both currently use durability on gear as both a gold sink and a minor penalty for death, but it's a case where standard use tends to have a trivial impact on durability (ie. your sword isn't going to break because you've been fighting non-stop for 30 minutes) and you can literally die 8-9 times before your gear will be at serious risk of breaking.

My understanding of Aetherite is that it will be a travel hub, similar in function to an outpost (FFXI) flight path (WoW) or stable (LOTRO). It makes sense that they would station basic NPCs around those hubs, including repair vendors.
#47 Dec 28 2009 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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As for RMT preventative measures, I like the idea of signing crafted items. If at all possible, if signing is mandatory when making an item, and we know the names of some RMT that continuously put up HQ gear, we could avoid purchasing from them. Of course, that would most likely only prevent the Lblirugbeg names from RMT, and there will always be players who will buy the last remaining +1 item there even if RMT made it.

The durability system does make me rather apprehensive, considering what everyone has posted about the systems in WoW/EQ. I have never played those games, personally, but I'm hopeful about SE not making the same mistakes. Perhaps, while the player is in a party, their weapons/armor will be in a kind of safe-zone from breaking. Of course, breaking pt once the event is over and having your weapons/armor break immediately before getting back to town sucks. Surely there will be repair stations by the Aetherite or a good friend in the LS or pt who is a crafter and agrees to fix weapons after events.

tl;dr - pros and cons to everything; hope SE leans to steer clear of potholes.
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#48 Dec 28 2009 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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Signing crafted items will help stamp out RMT sales, it won't prevent it completely no. Which brings me to my 2nd point. Any gear you purchase will need to be repaired. That's the kind of repeat business that will help keep legit crafters ahead of the RMT. Let's be realistic, very few people will allow their repairs to be done by RMT. I also like to add a 2nd sign name to the armor/weapons. The name of the original crafter and the name of the current repairer. We could market this idea to SE has word of mouth advertising, but what it really would do is secure the market for legit crafters.

We all support the RMT in FFXI so much right now and we don't even realize it. This leads me to my 2nd phase. I'd like to see a new AH system in XIV. Instead of merely dumping gear on the AH, you'll be listing it instead with your asking price. The difference is your name, crafting bio, title, etc would be avilable to the potential buyer. That way you wouldn't have to buy an item from either a RMT or asshat ever again. This system would also notify the buyer if this account is a secondary account(mule). I truly believe if SE invoked all the ideas I'm coming up with, FFXIV wouldn't have any crafting woes.
#49 Dec 28 2009 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Signing crafted items will help stamp out RMT sales, it won't prevent it completely no. Which brings me to my 2nd point. Any gear you purchase will need to be repaired. That's the kind of repeat business that will help keep legit crafters ahead of the RMT. Let's be realistic, very few people will allow their repairs to be done by RMT. I also like to add a 2nd sign name to the armor/weapons. The name of the original crafter and the name of the current repairer. We could market this idea to SE has word of mouth advertising, but what it really would do is secure the market for legit crafters.


You're assuming that players will only be able to repair their gear through other players. The most recent information released from SE (see: blacksmiths @ Aetherite) says otherwise.

And again, you're concocting all manner of needless complications strictly for the sake of addressing RMT. Simplicity is good. Simple systems are less prone to bugs, require fewer resources to implement and maintain, and are generally the best option in all things.

Quote:
We all support the RMT in FFXI so much right now and we don't even realize it. This leads me to my 2nd phase. I'd like to see a new AH system in XIV. Instead of merely dumping gear on the AH, you'll be listing it instead with your asking price. The difference is your name, crafting bio, title, etc would be avilable to the potential buyer. That way you wouldn't have to buy an item from either a RMT or asshat ever again. This system would also notify the buyer if this account is a secondary account(mule). I truly believe if SE invoked all the ideas I'm coming up with, FFXIV wouldn't have any crafting woes.


Again...needless complications.
#50 Dec 28 2009 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Frankly, I don't want people knowing my activity history. Case and point, up and coming alchemist knows I have alchemy leveled, so let's see what Seriha's been making for profit for the past week. Bam, dead market. FFXIAH facilitated this if you were willing to look into it, and it's pretty much while I started selling everything from mules.
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#51 Dec 28 2009 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:


You're assuming that players will only be able to repair their gear through other players. The most recent information released from SE (see: blacksmiths @ Aetherite) says otherwise.


You mean this? Though I said that “Aetherite” existed as a meeting point, it is also a place where blacksmith and adventures can meet up. It would be a burden to go back to the city to fix, but maybe there is somebody who can fix it at “Aetherite”. I’d like to offer users places to encounter.

I'm suggesting that as far as we the crafters are concerned, this system would work for us. I assume there will NPC's that repair the gear too. But seriously who cares, NPC's aren't RMT's. My suggestions are designed to be effective when the human player is concerned. If you had a point, I don't understand.

Quote:

And again, you're concocting all manner of needless complications strictly for the sake of addressing RMT. Simplicity is good. Simple systems are less prone to bugs, require fewer resources to implement and maintain, and are generally the best option in all things.


My suggestions would do far more than put the squeeze on the RMT. It would affect people that like to manipulate prices or be asshats in game as well. While a more simpler system would provide less bugs, look at all the manpower resources SE has been forced to take because of people that have gone around them. RMT is a billion dollar industry, it's not done in some guy's garage. I don't see anything wrong with my suggestions. It's better to be pro-active than reactive.

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