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FFXIV crafting idea to counter RMTFollow

#52 Dec 28 2009 at 7:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Frankly, I don't want people knowing my activity history. Case and point, up and coming alchemist knows I have alchemy leveled, so let's see what Seriha's been making for profit for the past week. Bam, dead market. FFXIAH facilitated this if you were willing to look into it, and it's pretty much while I started selling everything from mules.


FFXIAH changed nothing. Players have always used mules. Smart players have always checked out the market which is already done by checking AH listings and cost of materials. All FFXIAH did was to consolidate some of the figures without all the work. I used to write down all the potential synths myself and watch the market.

The reason why Alchemy is so hard to make gil is this. It's the 2nd cheapest craft to level to 100(behind cooking, don't count fishing). Most of the skill up synths are sold for profits.. IE echo drops, silent oils, poison pots etc. SE continues to ***** over our craft by nerfing recipes like Remedies. Potions in general suck and aren't cost effective. Most potions require far too long to "USE" which nullifies the point of using it.

If Alchemy was done right from the beginning, most melees could of soloed long before /dnc. SE has never fixed Alchemy. It's not the fault of FFXIAH or anyone else. FFXIV is looking to put more emphasis on the crafters so maybe things would turn out different. I'll tell you one thing. You can blame someone who looked you up on FFXIAH all you want. The RMT are the reason why it's so hard to make gil in the first place.
#53 Dec 28 2009 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:


You're assuming that players will only be able to repair their gear through other players. The most recent information released from SE (see: blacksmiths @ Aetherite) says otherwise.


You mean this? Though I said that “Aetherite” existed as a meeting point, it is also a place where blacksmith and adventures can meet up. It would be a burden to go back to the city to fix, but maybe there is somebody who can fix it at “Aetherite”. I’d like to offer users places to encounter.

I'm suggesting that as far as we the crafters are concerned, this system would work for us. I assume there will NPC's that repair the gear too. But seriously who cares, NPC's aren't RMT's. My suggestions are designed to be effective when the human player is concerned. If you had a point, I don't understand.


I honestly wouldn't really expect you to understand. The difficulty with evaluating game mechanics when all you've got to go on is FFXI is that you tend to be way, way behind the 8-ball when it comes to stuff that matters and stuff that works.

If you've got an NPC option for a particular function of the game and an option for players to perform that function as well, the cost of said function is soft capped by the NPC price. If you've got convenient access to an NPC that will (using this example) repair your gear, you're not going to pay Bob Adventurer 5 times that amount to do it for you. Gear repairs are a necessary service in any game with durability damage. You can't leave it in the hands of a free economy (aka player driven) or you end up with people unable to play because their gear is broken and they can't afford to pay inflated player-dictated prices to have it fixed. That in of itself creates a price regulation on the cost of gear repairs, and fully eliminates the need to track who is repairing what.

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And again, you're concocting all manner of needless complications strictly for the sake of addressing RMT. Simplicity is good. Simple systems are less prone to bugs, require fewer resources to implement and maintain, and are generally the best option in all things.


My suggestions would do far more than put the squeeze on the RMT. It would affect people that like to manipulate prices or be asshats in game as well. While a more simpler system would provide less bugs, look at all the manpower resources SE has been forced to take because of people that have gone around them. RMT is a billion dollar industry, it's not done in some guy's garage. I don't see anything wrong with my suggestions. It's better to be pro-active than reactive.


You know the best...as in, hands down, no exceptions best...way SE can reduce the potential for market asshattery in FFXIV (be it from RMT or others)?

To not make everything such a @#%^ing grind that people feel the need to milk as much as they can out of as many as they can just to get by and have decent stuff.

And that, my friend, is both simple and effective. Makes people happy, too. Simple + effective + happy players = large subscriber base that actually...you know...sticks around. And when they stick around, it's not, "I hate this game but walking away now would invalidate the misery involved in my character's progress but I'll still visit community vorums and trash talk both the game and SE" like you see here on the FFXI boards.

It's actually a case of...people having fun. And SE will accomplish this goal by knowing their market, observing, listening, and responding to issues as they arise. If they can manage that as other MMO developers have done, everyone wins. If they stubbornly insist that there was more right with FFXI than there was wrong, no amount of automated RMT countermeasures are going to save FFXIV from the Pit of Mediocrity and Failure that it will launch itself into on release day.

Edited, Dec 28th 2009 7:55pm by AureliusSir
#54 Dec 28 2009 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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I stand by the statement that RMT will always find ways around counter measures introduced by developers. If you attempt to automate a system or adjust game play to counter RMT all you are doing is delaying them a couple days and putting the squeeze on legit players that found ways to farm for money. This has been shown over the years by SE in their anti-rmt methods. Players have to adjust because SE changes game play to stop rmt.

By nerfing NPC prices, limiting item gathering, placing new guardian mobs in certain locations, auto banning for certain actions similar to known rmt, all SE is doing is effecting players. RMT can always roll out new armies of bots. Players are forced to wait time periods to resume gathering. Players are forced to change camps to avoid anit-rmt mobs. Players are forced to stop gardening certain items or stop npcing certain items.

Only way to stop rmt is to stop the demand for rmt.They need to start tracing and monitoring IP from suspected and known rmt. Trace in game transactions and use sting operations to find suppliers. Then ban (either permanently or warning, temp, perma) the buyers. But not only ban the buyers, but publicize the names of those banned, so friends and acquaintances can see how close to home it hits and that "ALL" buyers will be banned. If people know for a fact they will without a doubt get banned for buying from rmt, people will not shop the rmt. No demand, no need for supply. RMT will be forced to move on to greener pastures if they want to buy groceries for they families.



Edited, Dec 28th 2009 11:14pm by RobbyFaces
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#55 Dec 29 2009 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:

I honestly wouldn't really expect you to understand. The difficulty with evaluating game mechanics when all you've got to go on is FFXI is that you tend to be way, way behind the 8-ball when it comes to stuff that matters and stuff that works.

If you've got an NPC option for a particular function of the game and an option for players to perform that function as well, the cost of said function is soft capped by the NPC price. If you've got convenient access to an NPC that will (using this example) repair your gear, you're not going to pay Bob Adventurer 5 times that amount to do it for you. Gear repairs are a necessary service in any game with durability damage. You can't leave it in the hands of a free economy (aka player driven) or you end up with people unable to play because their gear is broken and they can't afford to pay inflated player-dictated prices to have it fixed. That in of itself creates a price regulation on the cost of gear repairs, and fully eliminates the need to track who is repairing what.


I'm fully aware of this. The soft cap controlled by SE NPC's isn't a standard. Say if you were in a dungeon somewhere and your gear needed to be fixed. You could pay double the normal NPC price. Or say you were in town and crafters including the RMT camp beside the NPC. My FFXI experience tells me the PC crafter would be cheaper thus why it's important to have the repair person's name on the fixed gear.

If 20 people are in Jeuno selling a Hauby right now for 200k. One of those 20 sellers list their hauby at 175k. This seller is a known RMT. Don't you think it would help to know what players are supporting the RMT? I realize some people won't care either way, but it will help to cut back on RMT selling.

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You know the best...as in, hands down, no exceptions best...way SE can reduce the potential for market asshattery in FFXIV (be it from RMT or others)?

To not make everything such a @#%^ing grind that people feel the need to milk as much as they can out of as many as they can just to get by and have decent stuff.

And that, my friend, is both simple and effective. Makes people happy, too. Simple + effective + happy players = large subscriber base that actually...you know...sticks around. And when they stick around, it's not, "I hate this game but walking away now would invalidate the misery involved in my character's progress but I'll still visit community vorums and trash talk both the game and SE" like you see here on the FFXI boards.



I'm all for a simple system, but why is signing your name on a piece of armor such a problem for you? You can sign stuff in FFXI, only they charge you for it using guild crystals. I agree on another thing you said. Don't make this game such a grind. Which is why I suggested, don't have b.s. HQ rates like in FFXI. If you have the skill and materials, you get the HQ 100%. Most of ideas are simply to expose the RMT to the player base.

Edited, Dec 29th 2009 1:34am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#56 Dec 29 2009 at 2:11 AM Rating: Good
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I'm fully aware of this. The soft cap controlled by SE NPC's isn't a standard. Say if you were in a dungeon somewhere and your gear needed to be fixed. You could pay double the normal NPC price. Or say you were in town and crafters including the RMT camp beside the NPC. My FFXI experience tells me the PC crafter would be cheaper thus why it's important to have the repair person's name on the fixed gear.


You're trying too hard to justify a bad idea. You can't control RMT. They will be there. They will find a way to earn currency and then they will find ways to advertise their product. And you know what? If they establish any sort of presence at all, most people are going to care just enough to ***** about it, but any kind of large scale boycotting associated with giving players an easy way to track RMT is a pipe dream. It didn't happen in FFXI, it doesn't happen in other games, it's not going to happen in FFXIV.

Your lack of experience with a durability system in an MMO is very apparent. Repairs on gear in any MMO I've played where durability was a feature of the game were only expensive if you had very good gear at endgame levels and were involved in content that involved frequent deaths. For anything else, the repair cost is trivial on an ongoing basis.

Obviously, SE could decide to change that. They could decide to make it a substantial cost right out of the gate. That would be a pretty dumb call, but let's not forget who we're talking about.

But let's assume they've got the right idea about the whole thing...I'm not going to stop and negotiate a price on a trivial repair bill when I'm two quick clicks away from getting it done by an NPC just because a misguided blacksmith decides to camp out next to the vendor. If repairing gear is an inexpensive way to skill up a profession, I can imagine I would lend hand and support them but I'm not going to waste time trying to get a deal on an already trivial cost.

Unless SE bludgeons players with durability loss, if someone is needing to repair part way through a run it's because they're a bit of a bonehead. You don't join a group for isolated (ie. instanced) content without repairing your gear beforehand. It's just a smart way to play a game where durability is part of the mechanics. People who show up to group content without looking after their gear beforehand tend to get a certain amount of grief for holding up the group. Regardless, if you're in an instanced area of the game with someone who can repair your gear, either you're running with RMT or RMT is a non-issue.

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If 20 people are in Jeuno selling a Hauby right now for 200k. One of those 20 sellers list their hauby at 175k. This seller is a known RMT. Don't you think it would help to know what players are supporting the RMT? I realize some people won't care either way, but it will help to cut back on RMT selling.


Not significantly. Most people don't even look at the seller's name in games where said name is listed on auction. They just buy what they want/need for the lowest price available and carry on. More importantly, the percentage of the population who cares enough to learn who the known RMT are, much less give a **** whether or not they're buying from them is much smaller than you think.

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I'm all for a simple system, but why is signing your name on a piece of armor such a problem for you? You can sign stuff in FFXI, only they charge you for it using guild crystals. I agree on another thing you said. Don't make this game such a grind. Which is why I suggested, don't have b.s. HQ rates like in FFXI. If you have the skill and materials, you get the HQ 100%. Most of ideas are simply to expose the RMT to the player base.


Because you're putting it forward as an idea specifically to manage RMT. Again, you're thinking too hard about something that you have no influence over. SE isn't going to implement your ideas, and they're not good ideas to begin with.
#57 Dec 29 2009 at 2:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I see what you're saying and I agree to an extent. However, the durable system in FFXIV is not known yet to anyone. As I understand, the durable system in other MMO's and rpg's in general have always sucked. You make it seem like repairs will be so common and cheap, crafters won't bother to perform the service. The way you're implying things, it appears to be no different than renting a chocobo. The truth is we don't know how long repaired armor lasts. Maybe the NPC repairs are less efficient and break sooner. I don't have a lot of experience with MMO's so I'll take your word on a few things.

I still want all armor/weapons that are crafted to be signed. I don't care what purpose it serves, it's what I want. I think for now, I'll hold off judgment on the game mechanics of crafting until I play for myself. Thanks again for your input.
#58 Dec 29 2009 at 8:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Any sort of durability loss in an MMO is by definition going to suck. After all you just bought a piece of armor and now you have to pay extra money on a periodic basis to upkeep it. However, such a system is useful to the overall economy so I think MMOs should have them.

Anyway, I think that people here are putting too much value in identifying who made an item. First off, from my experience playing FFXI, not even half of the people knew what RMT was and of those who did know, only very few actually got worked up enough to care. I know that people in the community have compiled lists of suspected RMT but I don't know of anyone who has actually gone out of their way to avoid dealing with an RMT when it was detrimental to their pocketbook.

For aesthetic reasons people may not want to buy items made by jjkkmff, but if the RMT who get to a high enough level to craft put a moment of thought into naming their characters, then only a very small percentage of a minority will go out of its way to avoid buying that gear. I guess one way to combat RMT would be to have region specific servers so that if we do have rmt then at least they're red white and blue rmt. Heh.
#59 Dec 29 2009 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd like to see anyone who would normally be banned for RMT activities
turned into a HNM character in one of the besieged/campaign events,

where everyone can see that persons name and have a chance to take a wack at him/her. and at the end of the besiege/campaign, have a gil. and loot drop of that characters inventory for everyone that did damage to the RMT character, until the persons ill gotten gil, armor, food, crafting items ect. is depleted at which point the character is defeated/deleted.

SE could add a catchy title for defeating them, players would get rewarded while SE is able to deter RMT and still keep the gil in the economy evenly distributed.

from what I saw in 2006 - 2009 in FFXI and other MMOs changing the game design and monster spawn/drops really took away from how the game was originally meant to be played (which for the most part) was what made FFXI so attractive to most.

a majority of the things that the RMT task force did really disenchanted the player base and destroyed the game, as you can see for your self just by logging in and seeing the dismal log on numbers due to legit players being swept up in the crossfire of relentless banning s, having their accounts hacked because SE was making an impact on RMT or just simply being negatively effected to the point where just by logging in left a bad taste in their mouths.
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#60 Dec 29 2009 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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I have to admit I skipped over most of the conversation sense it was mostly the same.

But to OP discussion. I think its completely wrong direction to go. It is because the tradeskill held 95% of the economy that the RMT had such stranglehold on us, coupled with the outright broken NM system.

What we dont want is some overwhelming tradeskill mechanic that rmt will eventually find a way to controll. Many stated this in the past and I will again. We need very large non-tradable drop mechanic that spans the entire game. This will involve introducing instanced material from the start and not just at end game.
#61 Dec 29 2009 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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What we really need is an easier way to earn gil and that will resolve a huge part of the RMT problem. In FFXI, it's such a pain to acquire gil, it's no wonder why RMT flourished. Gil has to be something that is easy enough to come by, but it's not the focus of the game. Change the design of XI to a more adventure based game that focuses on quests,missions, and exploring.

I've tried to give ideas based on what approach SE might take to counter RMT. So far, all of their efforts have only hurt us. The changing of NM drops to rare/ex. Ulli and Despot nerf. Removing items from certain NM's.. IE AQ and that SSG one. Every single time SE has tried their RMT countermeasure, it's back fired. I think it's time for someone else to try something unproven.
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