Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Solo play vs Grp ~ bigger pictureFollow

#1 Dec 25 2009 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
*
237 posts
So i've been thinking about this for a bit. Since my last days in vana deil i've ventured in a handful of other MMO's. Non have really grasped me the way FFXI did. Besides all the short comings of forced grp play hours of LFG and delevels FFXI remains my favorite MMO.

I think this is due to the story line, it took a while to complete due to the above hurdles. But it made teh game great.

The question i pose is this: How solo friendly should FFXIV be? Solo the whole game? or Solo just character advancement and have grping to defeat raid encounters and story missions.


I wouldn't mind seeing FFXIV leaving the character advancement solo friendly so that people who "don't have time to grp" still experience an aspect of the game, but to fully realize the bigger picture have grp play be the norm.

liked the community FFXI fostered by people depending on others to advance,but liek the idea that FOV brought forward and let people kill solo for exp gain.
____________________________
FFXIV has it's first official RMT'r: Zyuu
#2 Dec 25 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
54 posts
Quote:
The question i pose is this: How solo friendly should FFXIV be? Solo the whole game? or Solo just character advancement and have grping to defeat raid encounters and story missions.


Honestly, I don't want soloability to be a large part of character development. In my opinion, it dumbs down the game. Anyone can go out and just kill stuff, but it takes intelligence and knowledge of the game to work with others in a group environment to kill things that would be too difficult solo. It's also much more fun grinding with other people. In fact, part of the reason that I stopped playing FFXI was because BLM's were no longer ideal for party situations. I lived and breathed BLM, and having to solo to advance in the game just made it too boring for me. I guess I just don't see how solo play fits into the concept of FFXIV. It's not a game that has the playable character come across as a superhero who can save the world by killing everything in sight. It's a game of comradeship and strategy...haha I don't really know how to explain it. =P

Now, I understand that FFXI had its flaws with the party system. It had its ideal jobs, outrageous LFP times, and isolation from the casual gamer. However, these are all problems that I hope SE has addressed.

Let's face it, the problem with jobs in FFXI was a balance issue. I think SE has already taken steps to allow all jobs equal opportunity to be able to group. While not all the information has been released on the jobs that will be in FFXIV, it looks like SE is going to have a smaller number of jobs, with greater versatility for each one. Having less jobs with more uses in a broader range of situations will help to alleviate the balance issues that were present in FFXI. Remember, FFXI had 3-4 healer classes, and like 12 DD's. Balancing that many classes with the same roles while keeping them each unique was a daunting task, and one that wasn't able to be accomplished. There is no denying that some jobs had more usefulness to parties. FFXIV Armoury system looks as if it will allow jobs to change their usefulness depending on the situation, and that is definitely a step in the right direction.

As far as the party system itself goes, I think SE realized their mistakes, and started fixing them even with FFXI. Fields of Valor, Level Sync, and Besieged/Campaign were all implemented to cater to the casual gamer. It allowed players to gain experience points at their own pace, offering limited soloability while still being able to make progress. With Level Sync, LFP times were cut drastically. I actually believe that what FFXI has now is a perfect blend of solo and group play. If they add features like these into FFXIV from the beginning, there won't be many complaints. You will be able to make reasonable progress while soloing, and faster progress while partying. I think that's how it should be.
____________________________
Xaral-Ifrit Server
#3 Dec 25 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
656 posts
Even thought I agree to the post above, where less "classes" will let SE easier to balance the system, but I guess there will be more "classes" coming.
Discipline of Hands and Land are not the combat classes (at least in my opinion, they wont be combating), so leaving only 5 other combat classes revealed.
and there is no healer and support classes yet... and when you see a "Gilgamesh" pirate type screenshot, you know something of an assassin/thf job is coming!!!

i expect to see at least like 8 to 10 combat classes, and perhaps a couple more to come when they have new expansions.. but please SE.. not too many.
____________________________
モスタル


#4 Dec 25 2009 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
***
2,080 posts

I play MMOs to play with other people, not play solo. The greatest thing about FF11 is that you are forced to work with others to be successful.

This method of game play not only builds characters, it builds character.

I tell people who whinge about finding groups to do stuff to suck it up and make their own group. I never had a problem getting stuff done in FF11. If I wanted to do something I put together a group and did it. I never shied away from shouting for pick-up people if people from my various linkshells weren't available. People get too caught up in their comfort zones and aren't able to adapt to work with new people nor adapt their strategies to work with the lowest common denominator for a pick-up group.

Okay, ranting aside, I really hope FF14 puts a lot of emphasis on group activities. My favourite group activities were sized 6 to 18 people. I did love the occasional massive 64 man Dynamis but even I will admit they get wearing after a while. If I can solo from 1 to cap that'll be soul-deadening boring to me.

Another side rant: I think that the push for solo play comes from the North American obsession for independence and self-reliance. Our society rewards it. Japanese culture rewards teamwork and group effort, hence the importance of this in FF11. I think that we could learn a bit from the Japanese. Of course, I've also worked in Asia and the whole groupthink thing can become just as mind-numbing so this can be a two way street.

I played WoW from 1 to 57, mostly solo with the occasional group instance. I was bored out of my mind.
____________________________
Meara -> Meare
Ramuh -> Bahamut
#5 Dec 25 2009 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
*
129 posts
I think most people got it right when they said that you'd be able to grind on your own a decent amount of the time, but guild leves/NMs/raids/whatever will require a group.

On top of that, I think they'll find a way to make small parties more efficient at grinding than solo.
#6 Dec 25 2009 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
38 posts
Quote:
Honestly, I don't want soloability to be a large part of character development. In my opinion, it dumbs down the game. Anyone can go out and just kill stuff, but it takes intelligence and knowledge of the game to work with others in a group environment to kill things that would be too difficult solo.


Agreed, but not necessarily true. Near the end of my XI career, I became an avid solo player. Fields of Valor enhancements, such as Regen and Refresh, didn't make it ridiculously easy to solo, but 1HP/tic meant I never had to rest and never had to stall sequential battles if I knew what I was doing. Only through experience and knowledge of my jobs' strengths versus my prey's weaknesses was I able to do this successfully.
#7 Dec 26 2009 at 12:39 AM Rating: Good
*
237 posts
Don't get me wrong, I loved exp parties in FFXI. Personally i don't view "forced grouping" to be a problem, Im after all playing a MMO. Whats the point if you're not grouping. I believe FOV was kinda a "beta" test for whats to come in FFXIV. this way SE can kinda fine tune those systems within a larger player base. FOV was what i meant by solo friendly content. Give a player a chance to still advance albeit at a slower pace than those playing as a team.


I solo'd my way through AOC, WAR and AION. I would shout for grps to grind & quest but to no avail i spent the majority of my time alone. In an MMO it should be opposite the majority should be spent with other players adventuring. In my original post i said it was the story line that drew me into FFXI, but it was the combination of experiencing the game world, and doing that with friends and strangers alike.

I want FFXIV to allow for the occasional solo grind, but to be grp friendlier in the end.
____________________________
FFXIV has it's first official RMT'r: Zyuu
#8 Dec 26 2009 at 12:53 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
**
556 posts
I don't care if I have to solo or join a group as long as I am not just fighting mobs after mobs after mobs to level. Only if fighting those mobs are apart of a Guildleve or a Mission/Raid. I would rather level up doing various different things then the repeitive grind of finding a camp and spending hours killing crabs!
____________________________
Jayy Submor-Hyperion-Slash Flex
#9 Dec 26 2009 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,169 posts
group should gain more XP, more rewards. People can solo if they can't get a group, but at a gimped rate that most people will be up for a group if a group is forming.

Don't make it like WoW where solo is faster than grouping, b/c then the people who wan't to group can rarely get it going b/c soloing is more efficient.

Whatever they do, they must make the rate of xp and rewards for grouping at least double that of soloing to ensure that both methods of XP are experienced.
____________________________
FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
LS: UnitedBBQ

www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
#10 Dec 26 2009 at 4:10 PM Rating: Good
***
2,890 posts
I approach this with bit of a different perspective. In simple terms my feeling go like this:
"I want to do whatever I want at my discretion."

For me the biggest part of this is isn't so much about allowing solo to be a viable option. The greater philosophy here is making more things a viable method of progression. That means that you have to balance all aspects of the game so that there are advantages and disadvantages for all forms of progression. But no one form of progression completely overrides all others.

This means that Solo cannot be too viable simply because if you did make it that way there would be no reason for grouping. Its much deeper than just making one aspect of the game viable. I will be very happy if all systems are balanced allowing me a greater variety of rewarding experiences that all play an important role in my characters development.

I believe that this is the direction FFXIV seems to be going anyway. I honestly feel as though I can progress in this game by going out and fishing or crafting swords if I really wanted to. If that means the concept of grinding XP is no longer present then ill gladly welcome this different style of play.

Edited, Dec 26th 2009 5:17pm by thorazinekizzez
#11 Dec 26 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
*
172 posts
Quote:
Honestly, I don't want soloability to be a large part of character development. In my opinion, it dumbs down the game. Anyone can go out and just kill stuff, but it takes intelligence and knowledge of the game to work with others in a group environment to kill things that would be too difficult solo.


Sorry, but I've seen a lot of people that couldn't play their job in a party or solo if their "real life" depended on it. Paladins that wouldn't use flash or white mages that used cure 4 over cure 5. They would get a party just because of their job. Let them fools play Beastmaster solo like I did back in the first years of the game and see how easy soloing was. What would happen to a job if it got a bad rap like BST did at the start saying it hurt the parties xp. That job would be screwed until SE fixed it.

Blue mage or Ninja after 37 is pretty easy to solo nowadays. But, Ninja was pretty hard back in the day without all the good gear and added attributes from getting a job to 75. Blue mage probably wouldn't of been that easy if it was one of the first expansion jobs. There was a lot of updates and they lowered the amount needed to get to next level after 50.

I think soloing is a good thing. There is only so much farming you can do or crafting you can take. I think parties should get a bonus to xp but not so much that soloing would be pointless. If I go up against an EM with average gear on it should be a toss up on who is gonna win. If I invest the time and gil into gettin great gear then there is no reason at all a DC should ever beat me.

Another good thing about solo play is the subjob system if XIV even has it. I liked red mage as a DD. Even though people who wanted me as a healer/support kept saying I'd never get a party. I managed to play it so well that I even got invited back when I wasn't looking for a party.

I don't believe everything should be solo able. I mean whats the point in it being a MMORPG if you can solo it all. Then just play a normal rpg and solo the game. Quests and missions should be more of a group thing. Though I think If it's something a group can do pretty easy at 1 level then say 3-5 levels from that it can be trio'd and maybe 7-8 levels from the group it can be soloed. As for missions, BC's, or NM's they should be extremely hard. They are for better items and shouldn't be easy to acquire.
____________________________
Carpe Diem
#12 Dec 26 2009 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,890 posts
XvirusTvirus wrote:
Sorry, but I've seen a lot of people that couldn't play their job in a party or solo if their "real life" depended on it. Paladins that wouldn't use flash or white mages that used cure 4 over cure 5.


Wait a second.
How much did the whm job change since I last played FFXI? When did bombing cure 5s become a standard strategy to warrant criticism to the likes of not using flash? If that is the case it makes me sad because one of the things I liked about being higher level and healing in FFXI was that I used a wider variety of spells....

:(
#13 Dec 26 2009 at 8:27 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
240 posts
I liked partying with a group, that was one of the best things in FFXI if the group worked well. What sucks about is that the optimal groups that people seek tend to exclude several jobs.

Look what merpios on birds have done? Unless you're a SAM, DRG, WAR, COR, RDM, WHM, or BRD getting into one can prove to be difficult or arguing with leader of said party because they're hive minded to understand a RNG has piercing attacks too as long as they ride that hate line. Or the bad RNGs that ruin it for them. People are obsessed with optimal conditions, many players wouldn't settle for less if they lose a measly 1k exp per hour.

Don't get me started on what happened to BLMs, MNKs, NINs, PLDs, and RNGs. Not going to bother talking about BLUs, PUPs, and DNCers. One of the few new jobs that seemed to get a pretty sweet deal out of all the changes was SCH because of its awesome versatility despite lack of Haste and Refresh.

Why can't FFXIV have both solo and party dynamics? Solo should be consistent increments of exp while parties can get you to that endgame much faster. Solo in FFXI is a mixed bag, because FOV only allows one session per gameday (hour) which isn't enough when your job isn't the flavor of the month and have little playtime. Campaign is too random and unreliable and Besieged happens when it wants to.

Personally, I hope FFXIV has both solo and party options without too much penalties for solo.


____________________________
Raide < Railock / Hume(M) / "Asura" ***Missing Pandemonium***
80 Dragoon / 80 Black Mage / 80 Blue Mage
#14 Dec 26 2009 at 11:28 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
it dumbs down the game. Anyone can go out and just kill stuff, but it takes intelligence and knowledge of the game to work with others in a group environment to kill things that would be too difficult solo.


XI is proof that this is not necessarily the case. Grouping can certainly add depth to a game, but grouping can also be a relatively brainless process. Conversely, there are plenty of single player strategy and action games that require far more intelligence. Point being, there is no inherent relationship between grouping and challenge/intelligence required.

Hopefully XIV will offer the best of both.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#15 Dec 28 2009 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
405 posts
Solo leveling should be an option. Forced grouping like 2003-06 FFXI is stupid and dated. Adding XP bonuses to grouping would be a way to encourage it but not force it. I'll pull the real-life card here and say that most FFXI players aren't 16 anymore with unlimited free time for video games.

As an MMO, there needs to obviously be some grouping though. Taking examples from FFXI: BCNM, KSNM, ISNM, Assault, Salvage, Einherjar are all content "done right" IMO. Taking it even further, most events should be based on Assault-like points where every win gets you points and its semi-instanced (i.e. no bots competing for claim). Attending 500+ dynamis runs (obviously an exaggeration, but did you get everything you wanted or did you not see it drop/have to pass/wait in line?) and still not maxing out on armor is just idiotic. Let us earn and buy our items. Its still the delicious time-sink that SE demands but eliminates days/weeks of essentially wasted effort from 1% drop rates.

Big group events can be extremely satisfying. I remember my first Ouryu and then Bahamut 2 from around 2006 and let me tell you - that was epic stuff. Coordinating 18 people for an hour-long fight was amazing. Others that come to mind are many of the mission battles, Limbus Omega and Ultima, Dynamis Lord, highest tier Assaults versus the Aht Urghan bosses, Aht Urghan stronghold bosses. Mind you - most of this stuff is routine and easily zerged to the the ground now but when people had one 75 job and few merits it was game-changing and epic to win. Those are the memories that I love about MMOs.

Edited, Dec 28th 2009 3:57pm by Loris
#16 Jan 01 2010 at 5:22 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,146 posts
I think SE will find a good balance so that everyone get what they want. But the fact is that if you play on different hours you often are forced to solo as you come online when many of your friends arent online.

And while a lot love grouping as it is more fun to just fight and chat along, sometimes soloing is relaxing to and your not always in the mood to talk and party tbh.

The other problem with grouping is you always have either tank/healer problems or to much dd where you often choose the best of the dd leaving some of the dd jobs forced soloing.
#17 Jan 01 2010 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
303 posts
It's funny, i think all the people saying the level grind was the best part of ffxi should meet the millions of posters over the last 7 yrs about how the game is broken and they can't level.
____________________________
Quote:
Busaman the Mighty wrote:
Man I barely remember life before wow. It was hard living in caves for shelter and fending off wild beasts with only a sharpened stick. Men women and children all dying from simple infections Food was scarce, sometimes all we had to eat would be a fallen member of the tribe.

Those were dark days indeed. Thank Raptor Jesus for delivering us from our sins with his only son, the World Of Warcraft


UNBAN ROG
#18 Jan 02 2010 at 10:09 PM Rating: Good
It's interesting to see what is happening with groups in other MMOs as different game mechanics and systems are implemented and reviewed by the gamer masses.

Grouping to play an RPG-style video game is a fantastic concept. Billions of dollars funneled through the industry as a whole every year is testament to that. Go ahead and flame me all you want for bringing it up, but if you want to see an incredible example of what happens to group dynamics when you remove the tedium from forming a group, take a look at what is going on in the 5-man category of play in WoW right now. The new cross-realm grouping system implemented with the most recent major content patch has revolutionized the process.

All the whining about vertical progression rendering old content obsolete no longer has a foundation. As it turns out, it was the tedious process of finding a group and traveling a potentially substantial distance to your destination with the ever present risk of failure on account of sub-par players that robbed players of their enthusiasm for group content, and WoW is by no means the exception to that rule. People will group happily, readily, and often if the process by which they can do so is streamlined, efficient, and rewarding.

Take the grind out of it for a second. Grinding means different things to different people but the bottom line is that even when you're grinding, you're still playing the game. You're still doing something, and at the end of the day you're finding that whatever that something is is not entertaining, it's on you to find something else to do be it something else in the game or a different game altogether. It's when you're logged in and forced to do nothing due to circumstances largely beyond your control that it starts to get ugly.

The one universal component of MMOs that pretty much anyone will tell you makes the game frequently more a chore rather than an entertainment medium is that time spent doing absolutely nothing because you can't think of something you want to do that doesn't involve a group, and either you don't feel like the headache of assembling a group or worse, you've been trying to assemble a group for an unrealistic length of time with no success.

Solo content is necessary in MMOs. Sure, 10 years ago MMO developers would toss around the, "pfffft...why would you play an MMO if you want to solo?" justification. Unfortunately, much like the earth being flat, the earth being the center of the universe, and demons being the source of all illness in the world, that theory has been shot to **** under empirical scrutiny. We're not talking about what should be. We're talking about what is, and what is is a gaming market that is willing to pay <x> dollars/month for access to a service and any developer who wants to continue earning that money on a monthly basis had best make **** sure they've got enough content to suit as many people as possible regardlessof their mood/objectives that day.

Precedent is a ruthless taskmaster. I can't claim that my way of doing something is better when someone else has come along and demonstrated clearly and without question that I'm wrong. My way might have been the best way before people got a taste of something better, and once they've gotten that taste there's no going back. SE needs to take note of that, and based on the information we've seen directly from them, they have. To what extent is yet to be seen.

I expect mission content and the lion's share of end-game content to be aimed towards groups of various different sizes. I also expect an abundance of solo content...far, far more than what we saw in FFXI. If someone isn't enthusiastic about solo content, they can stick to groups. If they don't feel like grouping for whatever reason, the idea is that they'd have abundant options that would still allow them to enjoy themselves in the game.
#19 Jan 02 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
9 posts
FFXIV should allow full character "level" progression (in whatever form it takes in FFXIV) playing solo. Storywise I'd say most of the story should be accessible through solo content and the truly epic stuff should be left to raids.

You can look back through your nostalgia goggles and try to convince yourself that waiting 6 hours to find a party of non-mongoloids to level with was a good thing but it was truly awful. The point of any game is to have a good time. The FFXI leveling system was stressful and annoying. There is no excuse for an MMO in this generation to not have solo play. If FFXIV were to release without solo play it would crash and burn as bad as Age of Conan.

This pretty much sums up FFXI:
"It's funny, i think all the people saying the level grind was the best part of ffxi should meet the millions of posters over the last 7 yrs about how the game is broken and they can't level."
#20 Jan 03 2010 at 12:21 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
602 posts
cureslime wrote:
FFXIV should allow full character "level" progression (in whatever form it takes in FFXIV) playing solo. Storywise I'd say most of the story should be accessible through solo content and the truly epic stuff should be left to raids.

You can look back through your nostalgia goggles and try to convince yourself that waiting 6 hours to find a party of non-mongoloids to level with was a good thing but it was truly awful. The point of any game is to have a good time. The FFXI leveling system was stressful and annoying. There is no excuse for an MMO in this generation to not have solo play. If FFXIV were to release without solo play it would crash and burn as bad as Age of Conan.

This pretty much sums up FFXI:
"It's funny, i think all the people saying the level grind was the best part of ffxi should meet the millions of posters over the last 7 yrs about how the game is broken and they can't level."


Thank @#%^ing god all those whiners all went to Aion and World of Warcraft. Millions of babies. I am hoping that was sarcasm cause if not you're @#%^ing retarded. Hopefully you are one of the whiners and have quit Final Fantasy XI. If you were being sarcastic with your post, good job definitely worked.

Also to be honest like some have pointed out. All group events whether they be missions, storyline expansion progression, ENMs, ISNMs, Dynamis, etc. They should all reward at least some experience and gil upon winning or just participating. At least then you would be awarded for your time and people would do way more events. Leveling up just by helping people would be quite a good way to focus on community/group play over solo play. I applaud whoever just first brought that idea up in this thread. Nice observation. Granted certain things do award experience I've listed but there's many other events that could reward experience and gil to help players out. I'm all for events. Specially holiday events. Have fun meeting others who need your help to turn items in etc. And you make some gil on the side helping them out by them helping you out in return.

I've always said community is the best thing about Final Fantasy XI. And I would probably get bored and quit Final Fantasy XIV if it turns out to be too solo-friendly. Like the hardcore players who stick with Everquest, I might just stick with Final Fantasy XI til the day it dies. But fear not I have high hopes for Final Fantasy XIV. I hope the events are fun and challenging.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2010 1:32am by Excenmille

Edited, Jan 3rd 2010 1:32am by Excenmille
#21 Jan 03 2010 at 12:56 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
The Devs have already answered this question. They wanted to create solo content so people with limited time could accomplish stuff instead of waiting on a party. The Devs also confirmed that the solo experience will be complete if you go that route. If you prefer groups, FFXIV will have that too. Basically FFXIV is shaping up as a hybrid of FFXI and WoW.

In answering your question, I think you should be able to solo your character all the way. The endgame stuff is where you need to gather friends. Again, like WoW.

Let's take FFXI right now and compare it. Level sync and FoV have already made the game much easier to level. You find a comfortable camp, insert cookie cutter jobs, and grab a sync. It's far too easy to level nowadays in FFXI. Don't even get me started with the astral burns. I seriously don't see a point to group at all in FFXIV to skill up your character. Because there is no XP system for starters. SE has essentially fixed the biggest hurdle for most jobs in XI, XP per hour. Now you grab the unpopular job and go party and nobody will care. You try that in FFXI and your XP per hour is likely to suffer. Oh noees... this job is only doing 12% on the parse, kick him. Now it doesn't matter because there isn't a XP per hour quota.

I honestly think grouping will be like doing Lv50 capped Assaults and stuff. Except this time, it will be under Guildeves which will mimic FoV and all the other systems in FFXI. Grouping should be limited in FFXIV. The greatest appeal should be endgame stuff like raids and storyline missions.
#22 Jan 03 2010 at 1:17 AM Rating: Good
Excenmille wrote:
Thank @#%^ing god all those whiners all went to Aion and World of Warcraft. Millions of babies. I am hoping that was sarcasm cause if not you're @#%^ing retarded. Hopefully you are one of the whiners and have quit Final Fantasy XI. If you were being sarcastic with your post, good job definitely worked.


The funny thing about the "community" you speak of is that in most communities, you have no control over who moves in next door. You can't spew bile like you did in the part I quoted and then go on to say you value community.

Leveling in FFXI was bad. It was mind-numbingly repetitive and exceptionally dull. If you haven't played any other MMOs, you're in no position to argue to the contrary.

So stick with FFXI if that's what you want to do, but highly viable solo play in MMOs is here to stay, and FFXIV will likely be no exception.
#23 Jan 03 2010 at 1:26 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
3,317 posts
When I game I game with purpose. I don't like to log onto a game and be forced to do something else. That means there's something I want to do and I'm not interested in detours and roadblocks.

There were many many times where I would log onto FFXI wanting to do one thing and finding it nearly impossible. I wanna do a mission, no one is interested. I want to get xp, no healer/tank/refresh is looking, on and on and on. That's no fun.

I don't want to be in a situation where my only option is to sit in whitegate while I wait for others. I've seen people suggest reading a book or watching TV in these situations and that's just ridiculous to me. If I wanted to read a book I'd be reading one. When I log into a game I expect to be playing that game.

Having a strong viable solo option insures that no one is forced to sit around and do nothing when they log onto the game. That doesn't mean solo everything, but it also doesn't mean a few token solo "options" which are only options in the sense that it's technically possible (just not anything resembling effective).

Personally I think people put too much emphasis on the so called skill required for group play. Does it not take skill to take on a challenge alone, without the aid on 5-17 other people to help you? A stupid or lazy player isn't going to become better because he has a group to pick up the slack.

There needs to be balance, and I hope Square-Enix has taken the experience from FFXI as well as other successful games on the market to bring this balance to FFXIV. I think a game that achieves that balance from the start, rather than trying to find it years down the road, will not only be much better at it, but more palatable to it's players as well.

(I'm also not a fan of the work-like atmosphere HNM type systems bring. Am I the only one who finds the concept of being required to fill out what amounts to a job application to experience a rather large part of the game just the least bit insane?)

Edited, Jan 3rd 2010 2:40am by Redyoshi

Edited, Jan 3rd 2010 5:43pm by Redyoshi
#24 Jan 03 2010 at 3:38 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
899 posts
Honestly if SE added lvl sync at the early stages of FFXI it would have been way easier to make parties and group. Not saying it was hard but it take sometime and honestly hardly anyone want to lead (as its easier to complain about not getting a full group then to actually build one in form of static/LS or simply arrange what do), Sure there are times when you just want to lvl but you couldnt , when that happen you could have done anything else , even solo exp.

Quote:
Leveling in FFXI was bad. It was mind-numbingly repetitive and exceptionally dull. If you haven't played any other MMOs, you're in no position to argue to the contrary.


I for one enjoyed lvling on FFXI ( WAR when it was SJ-onry , RNG after the nerf , DRG when it was I'm a moron , THF pre-assassin, drk "omg cant lvl drk!" bs ) I hate making parties but after few practices you learn who to invite and when to do so.

I also played WOW and Aion (missing with the later currently), stop fooling yourself that any MMO's leveling is anything but repetitive (yay quests exp , hi2u scrolls exp) exp is exp no matter what you do its ganna be the same.

Quote:
Let's take FFXI right now and compare it. Level sync and FoV have already made the game much easier to level. You find a comfortable camp, insert cookie cutter jobs, and grab a sync. It's far too easy to level nowadays in FFXI. Don't even get me started with the astral burns. I seriously don't see a point to group at all in FFXIV to skill up your character. Because there is no XP system for starters. SE has essentially fixed the biggest hurdle for most jobs in XI, XP per hour. Now you grab the unpopular job and go party and nobody will care. You try that in FFXI and your XP per hour is likely to suffer. Oh noees... this job is only doing 12% on the parse, kick him. Now it doesn't matter because there isn't a XP per hour quota.


While I'm not sure how they'll do it , mobs should give you "something" after wall , I think you assume skilling up will happen by just attacking/using spells and gain 0.1-0.5 skill (much like FFXI skillup) , but the way I see it much like FFX where you need ??? exp to get 100HP/whatever stat/ability and slowly build up your char. unless they stated spacific char development plan and I missed ... kindly direct me to it.

Sure some want to solo and some want to group , main point is not to destroy one by making 1 way far better then the other. maybe make them depend on each other. ex: grouping give you some bonuses for soloing and the other way around.
____________________________
Falasi of Bismarck.
THF75/WAR75/BLU75/RNG75/DRK75/MNK75/SAM66
ZM:done. PM:done. AM:done.
Assault: Captain
#25 Jan 03 2010 at 4:23 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
Falasi wrote:

While I'm not sure how they'll do it , mobs should give you "something" after wall , I think you assume skilling up will happen by just attacking/using spells and gain 0.1-0.5 skill (much like FFXI skillup) , but the way I see it much like FFX where you need ??? exp to get 100HP/whatever stat/ability and slowly build up your char. unless they stated spacific char development plan and I missed ... kindly direct me to it.

Sure some want to solo and some want to group , main point is not to destroy one by making 1 way far better then the other. maybe make them depend on each other. ex: grouping give you some bonuses for soloing and the other way around.


I don't think a party will have any major advantage over a solo/duo group in FFXIV in terms of skill ups. Here are a few reasons why I feel that way.

In FFXI, you needed cookie cutter members for optimal XP per hour. You couldn't have more than 6 members without hurting your XP per hour. Prior to level sync, even a few level difference screwed over the party.

Now let's go over your typical Boyada tree skill up party. A bunch of misc jobs including mages who melee while performing their role to a lesser extent. You might have up to 12 people and nobody cares about XP. You receive the same skill ups as you would if the group only had 6. Your job doesn't matter because the purpose is skill ups, not XP.

Frankly, I see no point to give a "skill up" party in FFXIV any advantage except their advantage of having more people. It should be riskier to solo/duo. It's the missions, raids, misc content that you should use groups. However, I think you'll see more low-man groups "skilling up" because it's fun to party together. I just don't believe a party setting will benefit the players any on a skill up level. Again, the only reason you see normal parties in FFXI as a priority is because of the XP per hour quota. Without such a system in place, players will choose to solo/duo/trio more while "leveling" their characters.

My logic for this system is very straight forward. SE has tried for years to balance the jobs with very limited success. Would you be more inclined to invite a BST, PUP, or SMN if their presence didn't affect your XP? Say you have 6 people already, you wouldn't mind taking a BST friend if your XP wasn't reduced. The same goes for limited mage support. You typically only have a RDM, SCH, or WHM and that's it. In FFXIV, you can bring 2 healers if you feel like it. Let's say your guild is doing an event later. You need healers for it so you head out to party. Because there is no negative effect for having 2 WHM's, both are able to skill up without hurting the group as a whole. Again in FFXI, you'd be better off kicking one of the WHM's and grabbing a BRD/COR.

In conclusion, there will be tons of stuff to do in a party setting. I don't believe SE will offer any perks to a party because that would only lead to elitism and cookie cutters again. The only perk you should need is safety of numbers. SE has stressed many times how difficult FFXI was to get a party and how they're addressing FFXIV to be more casual. That doesn't mean you can't party, it just means you won't have an advantage which allows you to fly though the character skill up tree. There isn't 100% proof yet, but if you read between the lines, you'll see SE is hinting at my explanation.
#26 Jan 03 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
253 posts
I apologize in advance if this question has already been answered in a different thread, but how does Guildleves fit in the Solo & Group picture? Won't the Guildleve system encourage players to team up in order to complete challenging tasks?
____________________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
We are the BLU. Lower your shields and power down your weapons. You will be assimilated. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile
#27 Jan 03 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
**
343 posts
netglen wrote:
I apologize in advance if this question has already been answered in a different thread, but how does Guildleves fit in the Solo & Group picture? Won't the Guildleve system encourage players to team up in order to complete challenging tasks?


It was stated that guildleves will be friendly to all styles of play. A person can solo guildleves or group with friends.

FFXIV wrote:
Of course, there are no regulations stating that tasks must be completed alone. Adventurers are free to call upon their companions to join them, as only one leve is required to take advantage of the benefits and privledges provided to its breaer. By coordinating the leves of multiple party members, adventures can plan grand campaigns built around several different quests.

Whether you have an hour or a whole day, are alone or with friends, seeking battle or bounty, guildleves give you the ability to forge your own adventures.
____________________________
LoTRO- 62 hunter
WoW- 80 hunter
FFXI Jobs:
75 blu/75 war/75 blm
61 rng/54 whm/44 rdm
43 thf/21-37 rest
Nations: Windhurst rank 10, Sandy rank 10, Bastok lol
#28 Jan 03 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
602 posts
Well, I did intend to be slightly offensive towards the person in question with my response and yeah, I do actually value group play over everythin else. Everything that I do in the game I usually try to involve friends or strangers. Because playing a MMO alone is not what was intended. I do get the point that some people want solo things to do while inbetween group activities. I have nothing against that; I actually would push Square Enix to put in tons of solo activities just like there are in FFXI. I just don't want the game turning into an anti-social, can do everything yourself type of game.

Not trying to say solo play is wrong. And yeah I'm just a pro-group guy and I do solo here and there when I am looking for party, completing a quest; doing crafting/Auction House stuff. But when it comes to levelling, missions, storyline progression; I prefer to be among a group of friends. But yeah think I just said all the wrong things. No excuse for that post above but regardless.

Final Fantasy XIV will only be a succesfful MMO if like everyone has pointed out that it's a balance between the two. I am sorry but I don't think you should be able to solo endgame material. Or any endgame events. That should always be group involvement but I suppose World of Warcraft covers that. I just don't get why people don't want to do a lot of stuff with other friends or strangers in general.

I admit that I too also plan my days on the game and I don't like detours and have even refused people help in the past for certain activities but recently I've been doing what I can to help people. Some people might take advantage of you but those few who don't and return the favor are friends you have made forever. And you're also the sturdy pillar upon which they lean on when they log on everyday because they know someone with experience is always there if they need help. So yeah I am community bred. Final Fantasy XI has done that to me. Is it really that bad? I don't hold soloers in contempt. I just don't think they should be allowed to do stuff that would otherwise require a group of skilled people.

Regardless, apologies for above post. I should've replied with this one. I think I was mad because Battlefield kept killing my connection and I'm on 40mbps connection that has had no problems since I've gotten in 6 months ago. I'm pretty serious about my Kill to death ratio >.>; Carry on because this is a good discussion from both sides of the fence. Good reading material. **** Tampa Bay is getting lucky against Falcons, back to the game. Well, both games :)
#29 Jan 03 2010 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
**
343 posts
Redyoshi wrote:
Personally I think people put too much emphasis on the so called skill required for group play. Does it not take skill to take on a challenge alone, without the aid on 5-17 other people to help you? A stupid or lazy player isn't going to become better because he has a group to pick up the slack.


I agree with your entire post, especially this part.

In FFXI grouping did not mean a player would be a better player. The exact opposite if anything. How many pug groups have you guys had where there was always someone that was leeching. The mob moves and there was always 1 dd standing there for 2 minutes facing wrong way while rest of the party kills the mob. In group play for dd allowed many to auto attack and afk.

Soloing was almost always harder and required more skill. You get a link soloing and you were in trouble. In a group if you screwed up a pull, usually had someone sleep the link or pull it off to the side and hold it until the group was ready. Grouping allowed for more mistakes.

Good players are good player and bad players are bad players regardless of group or solo.


I like exp parties. I met a lot of great people in parties. The only solo I found to be better than partying was when I solo/duo blm on pet mobs. But these days I don't have the time to sit still for a 4-6 hour block of time, and can't party all the time. So some form of solo is nice to pass the time I do have. Although Solo on some jobs just plain sucks. Spend so much more money in ammo on rng solo for alot less exp then you would in a decent party.

And for the mmo = group play, like it or leave people. MMO does not mean you have to group 100% of the time. It's nice to do stuff solo and still be able to talk with friends. mmo = being in a populated world with other real people. How you interact with those people is up to you. You can talk with them or you can group with them or do neither. If someone is an obnoxious jerk in your party, are you forced to stay in that group, because you are in an mmo? No you can leave and do something else to avoid the jerk.

____________________________
LoTRO- 62 hunter
WoW- 80 hunter
FFXI Jobs:
75 blu/75 war/75 blm
61 rng/54 whm/44 rdm
43 thf/21-37 rest
Nations: Windhurst rank 10, Sandy rank 10, Bastok lol
#30 Jan 03 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
602 posts
Very good points Robby. Yeah in Final Fantasy XI at least now you have Fields of Valor, Campaign, Levelling With Your NPC and a few other caveats. I do agree Square Enix dropped the ball pre-solo friendly stuff. I do agree that there should at least be some ways to advance for someone who only has 2 or 3 hours. Just another reason even though Square waited forever to add it; supports the fact that Final Fantasy XI is somewhat balanced between the two now. And once Final Fantasy XIV is out and they are raking in more money I'm sure the expansions for Final Fantasy XI will pick up as they will be able to hire more people to work on new content.

I will play both games. Especially Final Fantasy XIV even if it's just to make a monthly payment to help support both MMOs. Can't wait for XIV and can't wait to see where the future of XI ends up. Two awesome MMOs. I think my head is going to explode.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2010 8:11pm by Excenmille
#31 Jan 03 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
I've played FFXI and WoW, ffxi for 3.5 years and WoW for almost 2.

When it comes to solo vs group, I want both.

I want to be able to go out and level alone if I choose to or don't have the time to setup/get into a group and party together for awhile.

And to have that option to get in a group and go chain mobs for nice EXP chains would be awesome on nights/days I have the time to do so.

Group killing, imo, should be "better" exp as you can kill stuff "faster" and gain chains, but at the same time Solo shouldn't be all that bad.

As long as their is some kind of balance I think it will work out.
____________________________
Sandinmyeye | |Tsukaremashi*a |
#32 Jan 03 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
**
343 posts
Excenmille wrote:
Not trying to say solo play is wrong. And yeah I'm just a pro-group guy and I do solo here and there when I am looking for party, completing a quest; doing crafting/Auction House stuff. But when it comes to levelling, missions, storyline progression; I prefer to be among a group of friends. But yeah think I just said all the wrong things. No excuse for that post above but regardless.


Sometimes friends schedules don't always coincide. Would be nice to be able to continue progress even if your friends can't make it on to help you. I agree grouping is fun, but logging in to find no one is around to help you with stuff you wanted to do, kinda sucks. It's nice to have other options and not rely on others for your own advancement.

This really becomes a problem when you have been joined at the hip with the same people for so long and then all of a sudden they change jobs or such and now your main crew isn't around all time like your used to.

Excenmille wrote:
Final Fantasy XIV will only be a succesfful MMO if like everyone has pointed out that it's a balance between the two. I am sorry but I don't think you should be able to solo endgame material. Or any endgame events. That should always be group involvement but I suppose World of Warcraft covers that. I just don't get why people don't want to do a lot of stuff with other friends or strangers in general.


I agree endgame should not be solo. But what do they do when people like Avesta come along? You can't nerf an entire game because a few people with exceptional skills can play the game like it's on EZ-mode.

I don't always ask friends to help me with unnecessary crap, because I don't want to burden them. They only get on for limit times and have their own stuff to do. I have AF nm fight I need help with, but I don't "need" that piece yet so I don't waste my friends time. I go help them with breaking a latent or exp buffer before they have to go.

And for strangers in general. Try getting 6-8 strangers together to trek half way around the world to help you do something they have no need for.

Excenmille wrote:
I admit that I too also plan my days on the game and I don't like detours and have even refused people help in the past for certain activities but recently I've been doing what I can to help people. Some people might take advantage of you but those few who don't and return the favor are friends you have made forever. And you're also the sturdy pillar upon which they lean on when they log on everyday because they know someone with experience is always there if they need help. So yeah I am community bred. Final Fantasy XI has done that to me. Is it really that bad? I don't hold soloers in contempt. I just don't think they should be allowed to do stuff that would otherwise require a group of skilled people.


This is easier in a newer game when people are on same quests/missions/levels etc. After the population has matured and is at the endgame stage it is sometimes hard to find the help you need on lower level stuff. Also as people play the game for a while their schedules change and their interest wanes, causing some to spend less time in the game as once did. So your friends may not be as available as they once were.

I will admit soloing is needed more as the game ages, and maybe not so much in the early days of a game's life.
____________________________
LoTRO- 62 hunter
WoW- 80 hunter
FFXI Jobs:
75 blu/75 war/75 blm
61 rng/54 whm/44 rdm
43 thf/21-37 rest
Nations: Windhurst rank 10, Sandy rank 10, Bastok lol
#33 Jan 03 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
RobbyFaces wrote:

This is easier in a newer game when people are on same quests/missions/levels etc. After the population has matured and is at the endgame stage it is sometimes hard to find the help you need on lower level stuff. Also as people play the game for a while their schedules change and their interest wanes, causing some to spend less time in the game as once did. So your friends may not be as available as they once were.

I will admit soloing is needed more as the game ages, and maybe not so much in the early days of a game's life.


FFXI attempted to fix this by removing XP loss for missions and giving a bonus for helping others win. That was a good start, but what we need is a system that bribes other players to help. By other players, I mean strangers. The mini expansion packs offered a neat bonus. Allowing you to pick up items from the box for helping. If SE bribes people by offering a scroll of 1000 skill points, I don't think we'll ever have a problem doing missions in FFXIV. All SE has to do is make sure any reward given is higher than that of Guildeves. So the incentive is there and because you the helper are getting just as much out of the mission as the person who needed it.
#34 Jan 03 2010 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
253 posts
Quote:
It was stated that guildleves will be friendly to all styles of play. A person can solo guildleves or group with friends.


I understood this when I read it, but is there a progression for the entire Guildleve system? Would the Guild/Linkshell need to complete a certain number of posted tasks in order to gain access/unlock even more challenging tasks? Who knows if there is a progression to the Guildleve system, it might progress faster and unlock better cards from completing group quests.
____________________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
We are the BLU. Lower your shields and power down your weapons. You will be assimilated. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile
#35 Jan 04 2010 at 2:24 AM Rating: Good
Excenmille wrote:
Well, I did intend to be slightly offensive towards the person in question with my response and yeah, I do actually value group play over everythin else. Everything that I do in the game I usually try to involve friends or strangers. Because playing a MMO alone is not what was intended. I do get the point that some people want solo things to do while inbetween group activities. I have nothing against that; I actually would push Square Enix to put in tons of solo activities just like there are in FFXI. I just don't want the game turning into an anti-social, can do everything yourself type of game.


I've seen the "tons" of solo activities SE has added to FFXI. They're entirely inadequate if SE wants to market FFXIV as being casual friendly, which is what they've said they're aiming for.

Quote:
Not trying to say solo play is wrong. And yeah I'm just a pro-group guy and I do solo here and there when I am looking for party, completing a quest; doing crafting/Auction House stuff. But when it comes to levelling, missions, storyline progression; I prefer to be among a group of friends. But yeah think I just said all the wrong things. No excuse for that post above but regardless.


Hopping on a chocobo and riding around to talk to NPCs or standing in front of an auction window do not compelling solo play make.

Quote:
Final Fantasy XIV will only be a succesfful MMO if like everyone has pointed out that it's a balance between the two. I am sorry but I don't think you should be able to solo endgame material. Or any endgame events. That should always be group involvement but I suppose World of Warcraft covers that. I just don't get why people don't want to do a lot of stuff with other friends or strangers in general.


Endgame is a subjective term. If by endgame you mean "level" capped content, you're wrong. There should be abundant opportunities for players to make use of "level" capped characters that don't involve groups. If by endgame you're referring to things like HNMs and the like, nobody is suggesting that you should be able to tackle those things solo. We're talking about choice throughout every stage of character development. And again, it comes down to the same thing: it's none of your **** business what other people enjoy in the game. If you like to focus on one area of the game, focus on that. What anyone else is doing is not your concern.

Quote:
I admit that I too also plan my days on the game and I don't like detours and have even refused people help in the past for certain activities but recently I've been doing what I can to help people. Some people might take advantage of you but those few who don't and return the favor are friends you have made forever. And you're also the sturdy pillar upon which they lean on when they log on everyday because they know someone with experience is always there if they need help. So yeah I am community bred. Final Fantasy XI has done that to me. Is it really that bad? I don't hold soloers in contempt. I just don't think they should be allowed to do stuff that would otherwise require a group of skilled people.


And again, your bias and MMO inexperience is showing. Nobody is talking about "all things solo". The more preconceptions you carry into FFXIV based on such a limited game as FFXI, the more likely you are to have your FFXIV experience suffer. Open mindedness is good.
#36 Jan 04 2010 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
***
3,177 posts
My philosophy remains that if I wanted to solo all of an MMO, then what's the point of playing an MMO.

However (and this is a big however), I do not want always want a group of 5-6 people if I want to get something menial like EXPing done. A group of 2-3 people should suffice with that. I think XI went way overboard in forcing you to get in large groups to do simple tasks.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn
Grover Eyeveen - Hyperion Server
Viva Eorzea Free Company/Linkshell Leader - Hyperion Server

Aegis Server (2012-2013)
Figaro Server (2010-2012)

Final Fantasy XI:
Retired

Blog
#37 Jan 04 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
***
2,169 posts
more afraid solo will be so efficient that I can't even form a group b/c everyone would rather solo. Having solo be too efficient will just kill the whole MMO aspect of the game.

I'd prefer forced grouping for most xp (but 3-10 person groups isntead of always 6 people) and solo for other stuff such as crafting.

Of course it's none of my business what other people do in the game, but I think in every MMO you must choose a path for XP, either mostly group, or mostly solo. In FFXI, if you like to solo, you always had the choice of playing a different game, like any of the other Final Fantasy titles.

Edited, Jan 4th 2010 3:33pm by odinpingpong
____________________________
FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
LS: UnitedBBQ

www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
#38 Jan 04 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
**
621 posts
If soloing becomes a bigger part of FF14, I surely hope that SE will make it more enjoyable than in WoW and the clones. Those simple XP quests in WoW sucks and running around killing endless lines of boars in the forest is beyond boring. If SE copies this I wont play it.

And those of you who think that WoW is the perfect game and didn't like FF11, why are you even here?
____________________________
Kweh?!

...prophesizing the golden patch since october 2010.
#39 Jan 04 2010 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
54 posts
odinpingpong wrote:
more afraid solo will be so efficient that I can't even form a group b/c everyone would rather solo. Having solo be too efficient will just kill the whole MMO aspect of the game.


This is what I am most afraid of. I love the idea of allowing people to solo most things, but if it isn't balanced correctly, even if I want to group, I won't be able to find enough people to do it. People will want to use the most efficient method of accomplishing something. We've already seen this in FFXI with the ToAU v. RoZ leveling areas. My biggest fear is SE making soloing in FFXIV just as efficient as grouping. This will kill the game for me.

I am all for the solo aspect of the game. I'm certain there will be days where I only have time for soloing. I just don't want grouping to become obsolete and less-than-the-standard for things such as EXPing.

Edited, Jan 4th 2010 4:18pm by Xarall
____________________________
Xaral-Ifrit Server
#40 Jan 04 2010 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
602 posts

Was thinking about this today at work. Right now soloing with Fields of Valor can net you about 4,000-5,000 experience points an hour. That amount of experience was pretty average pre-ToAU for a basic experience party in Bibiki Bay. Maybe even the tree. I know weapons in sky and bone parties did net more exp an hour but still.

You make about double that in today's experience parties, dependent on what you are fighting. But 8,000 to 10,000 experience points an hour seems rather normal pre-Merit parties. If FFXIV can incorporate the same exact model I think it will work out just fine for everyone who wants to solo.

Solo play 5,000 exp an hour. Group play 10,000 exp an hour. Endgame experience in a group would be about double a solo players experience at max level cap which would potentially be 10,000 exp an hour in certain situations. 20,000 is normal for level 75.

Dunno. I think Square Enix did right by Final Fantasy XI I have faith that they'll continue the same system and setup for XIV. We shall soon see. I am actually wondering if I should even go through the beta process even if I get accepted. It would suck to ruin some stuff, storyline; the new feeling you know? Hmm.
#41 Jan 04 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
Xarall wrote:

This is what I am most afraid of. I love the idea of allowing people to solo most things, but if it isn't balanced correctly, even if I want to group, I won't be able to find enough people to do it. People will want to use the most efficient method of accomplishing something. We've already seen this in FFXI with the ToAU v. RoZ leveling areas. My biggest fear is SE making soloing in FFXIV just as efficient as grouping. This will kill the game for me.

I am all for the solo aspect of the game. I'm certain there will be days where I only have time for soloing. I just don't want grouping to become obsolete and less-than-the-standard for things such as EXPing.

Edited, Jan 4th 2010 4:18pm by Xarall


Soloing should be just as efficient for character building. I don't feel a party should have any major advantage beyond the security of more players to watch your back. However, if you really open your eyes in FFXI now, you'll see most people duo/trio spamming FoV. I truly believe SE will be pushing more players to duo/trio under Guildeves instead of partying with 6 people. Grouping will be neither better or worse over solo/duo/trio. However, that's a good thing if you really think about it. If you and some friends want to party for fun, you can bring them along and won't have to be cookie cutter classes to party. Sure you'll need healing, a tank, and some DD, but you won't be penalized by taking more or less.

I prefer my XI example best. If your party has 6 people already and a BST friend wants to join, they are pushed away. Now in FFXIV, there is no such restriction because there isn't XP per hour. FFXIV's system is shaping up more like a skill up party than a XP party. If you recall, skill up parties are usually more fun. Your typical XP party in FFXI isn't very fun for everyone. Your mage and support classes are usually bored or stressed out.
#42 Jan 04 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
54 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
However, if you really open your eyes in FFXI now, you'll see most people duo/trio spamming FoV. I truly believe SE will be pushing more players to duo/trio under Guildeves instead of partying with 6 people.


You bring up good points, this in particular. I think most people would be just fine with duo/trio parties. It still allows cooperative play, but without the wait time of building full parties. Just grab a few friends, and start grinding.

Quote:
I prefer my XI example best. If your party has 6 people already and a BST friend wants to join, they are pushed away. Now in FFXIV, there is no such restriction because there isn't XP per hour. FFXIV's system is shaping up more like a skill up party than a XP party. If you recall, skill up parties are usually more fun. Your typical XP party in FFXI isn't very fun for everyone. Your mage and support classes are usually bored or stressed out.


I like this as well. I'm interested to see how grinding is going to play out. If they implement a flexible system that allows what you have described to take place, I would be very happy. All jobs would be desirable, none left out, and it would help take out the stress of traditional FFXI-type parties.
____________________________
Xaral-Ifrit Server
#43 Jan 04 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,169 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Xarall wrote:

This is what I am most afraid of. I love the idea of allowing people to solo most things, but if it isn't balanced correctly, even if I want to group, I won't be able to find enough people to do it. People will want to use the most efficient method of accomplishing something. We've already seen this in FFXI with the ToAU v. RoZ leveling areas. My biggest fear is SE making soloing in FFXIV just as efficient as grouping. This will kill the game for me.

I am all for the solo aspect of the game. I'm certain there will be days where I only have time for soloing. I just don't want grouping to become obsolete and less-than-the-standard for things such as EXPing.

Edited, Jan 4th 2010 4:18pm by Xarall


Soloing should be just as efficient for character building. I don't feel a party should have any major advantage beyond the security of more players to watch your back. However, if you really open your eyes in FFXI now, you'll see most people duo/trio spamming FoV. I truly believe SE will be pushing more players to duo/trio under Guildeves instead of partying with 6 people. Grouping will be neither better or worse over solo/duo/trio. However, that's a good thing if you really think about it. If you and some friends want to party for fun, you can bring them along and won't have to be cookie cutter classes to party. Sure you'll need healing, a tank, and some DD, but you won't be penalized by taking more or less.

I prefer my XI example best. If your party has 6 people already and a BST friend wants to join, they are pushed away. Now in FFXIV, there is no such restriction because there isn't XP per hour. FFXIV's system is shaping up more like a skill up party than a XP party. If you recall, skill up parties are usually more fun. Your typical XP party in FFXI isn't very fun for everyone. Your mage and support classes are usually bored or stressed out.


I really hope it isn't a skill-up party as you describe. They couldn't have thought of a more boring game.

"hey friends, lets all go out and kill bunnies and skill up our weapons! fun!"

There needs to be some type of penalty for having too many players, otherwise you get 20 people whacking a rabbit for safety reasons all getting same xp.
____________________________
FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
LS: UnitedBBQ

www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
#44 Jan 04 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
odinpingpong wrote:

I really hope it isn't a skill-up party as you describe. They couldn't have thought of a more boring game.

"hey friends, lets all go out and kill bunnies and skill up our weapons! fun!"

There needs to be some type of penalty for having too many players, otherwise you get 20 people whacking a rabbit for safety reasons all getting same xp.


We don't know how the system will play out exactly yet. However, I believe it will be similar to FFXI's skill up party. I don't understand why some people think that's such a bad thing. Your typical XP/merit parties are 10x more boring especially for the support jobs. I feel your opinion of what a skill up party truly is to be very inaccurate. You won't have 20 people whacking away on a rabbit. If anything, it will work like FFXI's FoV system. You know where you do FoV with a friend or 2 to cap your weapon/skills because of those **** level sync parties.

FoV is already here for us to observe. Guildeves is part of the same system with some tweaks. A skill up party with 3~5 people isn't boring at all. If anything, I think you'll see smaller groups in FFXIV on average. You won't need a penalty because of the same balance found in FFXI skill up parties. What happens if you brought 20 people to skill up? The answer is you'll kill faster and receive less skill ups as a result per mob. So it doesn't matter if you have 5 or 20 people. The system would be balanced.
#45 Jan 04 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
349 posts
I only want to be able to solo while waiting on a larger group or if necessary do things in small groups if a full group can't be found. I know there's a lot of people who like to solo in mmos. I'm not one of them. I don't pay 15 dollars a month to play an mmo alone. I could play ff13 for that.
____________________________
That was no hemroid doctor. That was an alien hoobajoob
#46 Jan 04 2010 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,169 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:

I really hope it isn't a skill-up party as you describe. They couldn't have thought of a more boring game.

"hey friends, lets all go out and kill bunnies and skill up our weapons! fun!"

There needs to be some type of penalty for having too many players, otherwise you get 20 people whacking a rabbit for safety reasons all getting same xp.


We don't know how the system will play out exactly yet. However, I believe it will be similar to FFXI's skill up party. I don't understand why some people think that's such a bad thing. Your typical XP/merit parties are 10x more boring especially for the support jobs. I feel your opinion of what a skill up party truly is to be very inaccurate. You won't have 20 people whacking away on a rabbit. If anything, it will work like FFXI's FoV system. You know where you do FoV with a friend or 2 to cap your weapon/skills because of those **** level sync parties.

FoV is already here for us to observe. Guildeves is part of the same system with some tweaks. A skill up party with 3~5 people isn't boring at all. If anything, I think you'll see smaller groups in FFXIV on average. You won't need a penalty because of the same balance found in FFXI skill up parties. What happens if you brought 20 people to skill up? The answer is you'll kill faster and receive less skill ups as a result per mob. So it doesn't matter if you have 5 or 20 people. The system would be balanced.


Sure, but in the system you describe, where is the challenge?
____________________________
FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
LS: UnitedBBQ

www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
#47 Jan 04 2010 at 6:01 PM Rating: Excellent
**
736 posts
Since when has Grind involved challenge?
Of patience, maybe.
#48 Jan 04 2010 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
54 posts
Zemzelette wrote:
Since when has Grind involved challenge?
Of patience, maybe.


I had always thought a grind was a grind because it lacked challenge.
____________________________
Xaral-Ifrit Server
#49 Jan 04 2010 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,169 posts
Zemzelette wrote:
Since when has Grind involved challenge?
Of patience, maybe.


Well in XI, parties could challenge themselves by going to a higher level zone than they are leveled for, and their reward was more XP per hour. Instead of pulling VT VT IT IT VT, parties could choose an area of IT IT+ IT++ IT+ IT, if your gear and players could handle it. The challenge was getting max XP/hour.

Anyways, disregard that.

I'm hoping for something like the following:

Basically, the idea is that there is so much content in FFXIV (since game conception started in 2003 or 2004), that you would rarely have to repeat anything in the story. It would just be one story after anohter, one set of missions after another, which lead to exploration and incredibly tough fights.

For example, imaging going through the Chains of Promathia missions, fighting Ouryu, Bahamut, and Diabolos, but skilling up at the same time, and getting a nice reward upon completion, then going through the RoZ missions and exping off that, afterwards going on that, then ToAU missions.

Outside of the long missions, there would be repeatable ENM style side missions that you can do variations of, maybe once a week to keep content fresh. While climbing Uleguland range, you'd have to clear a path, skilling up your weapons, and at the end, fight 2 centaurs, or a giant buffalo, taking up about 1-2 hours total. Then going on a different ENM in Movapolos to kill bugbear, except the game would have over 100 of these available each week that you could do depending on what cards you use.
____________________________
FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
LS: UnitedBBQ

www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 23 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (23)