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I don't want macros in XIVFollow

#1 Dec 30 2009 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I know its hard to design a system that works well on PCs as well as consoles. On PC's you have a mouse and can hit "hot" buttons or something like that, but on a console you are limited. I'm very curious to see how SE approaches this.

But I really don't want to see /command line macros anymore. There are many reasons I hate them, but one that really irks me is the ability to change your entire set of armor, like 7 times, in half a second. I wear 5 pieces of specific armor to start my spell, then change them to hit the mob, then change them all again to weapon skill the mob, then back again for regular melee, and all of that in a blink of an eye.

I understand that is the way that XI is played,and is the way I've been doing it as it maximizes your efficiency, but it always rubbed me wrong. I'd actually prefer a more realistic approach of using whatever you happen to be wearing at the moment. If you want to wear something else, well you'll have to wait til the fight is over to switch, or at least take some serious time to swap it all out in a full menu.

Does anyone else feel the same way? I can't step over a two foot ledge to get to a new area, but I can change 7 sets of full armor in 2 seconds....
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#2 Dec 30 2009 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why not have macros, but not the ability to change armor.
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#3 Dec 30 2009 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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It sounds less like you're less irked about macros and more irked about equipment changes during battles. Mind you a macro does not necessarily mean there will be an equipment change. Equipment changing is something I always found distasteful myself. I mained BST so I had 3 different sets of equipment. One for charming, one for combat and one for resting. It is very frustrating that you need to have so many items and can switch between them freely as you please. But macros are not the culprit its the fact that the game allows you to do such things during combat. As I can see it macros are perfectly acceptable but being able to switch equipment is not.
#4 Dec 30 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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switching gears in a blink of an eye during battle always bother me.

it should only be allowed when we are not engaged in a battle.


macros are fine.
they are very useful, i always wonder how ppl use a controller to party, but a single keyboard works fine for me
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#5 Dec 30 2009 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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I hope gear swapping is limited to the Ballista swap. If you change gear, you're heavily penalized if you would do it in battle. We don't need to blink like a Xmas tree to have fun. Besides, I don't want an excuse for people to want cheats like Spellcast.
#6 Dec 30 2009 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with the armor changing is a pain and I think blinking when you do it looks lame. I like macros, its just nice to hit that macro for one spell, it's just so much faster then searching through all the spells.

I wonder when you change your weapon in FFXIV if your Armor will change as well. It would make sence, PLD armor linked to your shield and sword. I wonder if your weapon will have a sub menue for equipment. I'm not sure how you would change to the right armor without it. Then again it could be like FFXI when it just remembers what armor you were wearing. Unless each Class has a sub menue for weapons and armor.
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#7 Dec 30 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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SE stated that you cannot change weapons during battle. That way you cannot come out tanking, switch to staff heal, switch back to sword and shield and tank again. But I wonder if you dissengage during battle, can you switch classes then? Guess we'll have to wait and see till thr BETA.
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#8 Dec 30 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I do recall reading that the amount of times you can change equipment during battle will be limited.
Or something like that. I dont remember where that link is to that interview though.
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#9 Dec 30 2009 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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Mostaru wrote:
switching gears in a blink of an eye during battle always bother me.

it should only be allowed when we are not engaged in a battle.


macros are fine.
they are very useful, i always wonder how ppl use a controller to party, but a single keyboard works fine for me


I played on PC and I used a USB controller, I only ever touched the keyboard when I was talking to people or something that required text input. It was much more comfortable than using the keyboard :)

anyway, macros are nice to have, but I agre on the gear swapping. I think this time round gear swaps will be more restricted, since your class depends on what your using.
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#10 Dec 30 2009 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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Well, when I say "macro" I guess I'm referring to the old system of having to program everything in as /command lines. There are still ways to execute commands, but I shouldn't have to type them all out, worry about spacing, spelling, punctuation, etc...

There just needs to be an updated way to cast spells, perform actions, etc...without having to type them all out, and I'm curious how SE will do that. How do you imagine they'll manage that, and will the PS3 and PC versions have to be identical?

But I'm glad most people seem to agree with me about the stupid armor swapping, I thought I would be the only one that felt that way. To me it seems much more interesting to pick one piece of armor, and have to deal with both its benefits and detriments than be able to carry around a whole wardrobe.
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#11 Dec 30 2009 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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Final Fantasy games are known for their situational items. However, XI went way too far. Everything was a macro swap and I hated that. For example, look at W Legs. That's a perfectly good armor to swap should you need elemental resistance or speed. The problem with XI is the number of swaps you need to do to be efficient. We had posters in the 3rd party thread saying they would quit the game if Windower was removed from the game. IMO, it's because of all the situational gear that you need specialized macros in the first place. What I want to see in XIV is limited macro use.
#12 Dec 30 2009 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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Macros rock my socks, now we don't like them anymore? Darn..
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#13 Dec 30 2009 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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There has to be a better system. Hitting my cure macros repeatedly trying to get one cure off on the blinking ninja tank was incredibly frustrating as a healer.
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#14 Dec 30 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well,
Most MMOs will let you drag and drop from whatever menu your abilities are listed directly to your hotbar.
So setting up a macro to do one specific thing is actually darned easy. No spellcheck or precise punctuation required. While I can understand why XI's interface wasn't updated for this feature, I can't imagine XIV would be without it.

I've always hated Gear swaps too.
It was a timesinky slog to collect a set for every ability, it made micromanaging inventory space a pain in the ****, it earned White Mage a spot in my top 5 most frustrating healers I've ever played, and it made my inner fashionista cringe.

Beyond that, something about the constant swapping made armor feel like a cold impersonal set of tools. Armor is a status symbol, it defines your character both aesthetically and in terms of accomplishments with a single glance. There's something I find distasteful about having that characterization and badge-of-honor tradition undermined.





Edited, Dec 30th 2009 3:39pm by Zemzelette
#15 Dec 30 2009 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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Skeptic wrote:
Macros rock my socks, now we don't like them anymore? Darn..


I agree, Macro system was amazing in FF11. I actually really enjoyed it. Its far more simply and straight forward then in any other game. I am sure they will introduce a hotbar and such that will remove a need for alot of the macros but I think it be mistake to remove it completely.

As a rdm main I understand people woes on gear swapping but thats a single macro. There many macro that are invaluable that cant be achieved though hotbars. First thing that comes to mind is all the party communication macro for Renkai set up and such.

@Zem: Even with games like WoW with intricate hotbar interface, the vast majority till use macros for more fast and efficient commands even though they could get the same thing out of a hotbar.

Edited, Dec 30th 2009 3:13pm by Mitsuuko

Edited, Dec 30th 2009 3:15pm by Mitsuuko
#16 Dec 30 2009 at 2:17 PM Rating: Default
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**** is annoying, imagine us whms and this frustration trying to cure a tank and the ****** keeps blinking.... when he dies, he wonders why.
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#17 Dec 30 2009 at 2:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well sure,
I think most players advance to Macros eventually. But it doesn't hurt to have that nice little feature when your just starting out. All it does is write the spell out for you.
#18 Dec 30 2009 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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I absolutely loved the macro system in FFXI. But at the same time I loathed gear swaps for the reasons many have brought up in this thread. FFXI macros were easily the simplest and easiest macro system I have ever utilized, especially with how it transitioned onto a gamepad. Once I had a system of macros in place to utilize all my normal tasks and some situational, I never had to touch the keyboard unless I need to chat or make a new macro. It allowed me to play the game like I really was playing a console game (because technically it is lol) but still have the MMORPG experience.

One thing is for sure though, we will have macros returning, its just going be a hotbar style this time and how its entered through the gamepad will probably be similar. Just a simple shoulder button tap and you select the hotbar you want, and than move over to the button you want and press etc. The only thing that seems to have changed is its more aesthetically pleasing looking and better designed for those who want to use keyboard and mouse.

What they need though is a macro creator for people just starting out. Like say you want a certain spell ability and than give slots if you want a wait time /recast etc. and than have the game compile one for you. And than allow you to open up the made macro and allow people to study how the game compiled it so people can learn easily on their own. It took me a month to fully understand the FFXI macro system but I would have learned it quicker if I didn't have to seek out other players to help me make one.
#19 Dec 30 2009 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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Mostaru wrote:
macros are fine.
they are very useful, i always wonder how ppl use a controller to party, but a single keyboard works fine for me


I've played using both a controller and keyboard, i'd have to say that the controller was alot faster with targeting and executing macros.

Lovestospoon wrote:
sh*t is annoying, imagine us whms and this frustration trying to cure a tank and the @#%^er keeps blinking.... when he dies, he wonders why.


There is ways to get around others blinking like blinkmenot or simply making macros dedicated to those blinkers(pld-nin).

All in all i really hope there isn't any gear swaps during battle because it does indeed place heavy burdens on players. If i'm not mistaken, i think squareenix didn't intend for heavy gear swaps in the first place but they didn't place any restrictions on it because it worked out fine and it would've upset the community if they did.
#20 Dec 30 2009 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe you can't change armor mid fight and there is a cool down of a couple seconds on every piece of gear for swapping outside of fighting unless you're in your Mog House (or w/e it will be).
#21 Dec 30 2009 at 4:13 PM Rating: Default
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As for the equipment swapping meh. You know it's funny that I always come back to this and it's really sad but RMT were able to level to 75 in like a matter of 2 weeks or less. Manaburn and non-manaburn. They had level 1 equipment. Equipment doesn't add as much as say capped sword skill, capped enfeebling magic; etc. Equipment adds a decent bonus but it's not the end all. You can solo to 20 in level 1 equipment without any problems whatsoever. Because your combat skill, magic skill scales with your level vs the mob's level. Too much math but I would honestly love to know the minimum accuracy the game gives you with capped skill at each level versus even match, tough, very tough, incredibly tough. Anyone know of where this information might be? I mean, in dunes there's some people that have a level 1 sword and it actually doesn't do too bad against monsters because your sword skill is capped versus mob. Attack and accuracy bonus. Equipment will be beneficial but it will never make or break anything in the game. As bad as RMT are they have proven that in the end equipment never mattered. Maybe if you low man stuff like nowadays.

Haha just throw more RMT at it! It will die eventually! I hated what the RMT did with all that gil selling it but you have to admit; they were pioneers of a lot of stuff that has transpired since they began plaguing us. Perhaps that should be a thread started in main FFXI forum; would be interesting.


Okay as for the macro system. I cannot see this game surviving without macros. I for one LOATH, I ******* hate them so much the games that require you to have 3 hotbars and 60 millions buttons on the screen. That is why FFXI is so appealing and granted from the gameplay screenshots it seems they have added the hot bar feature. I will however do everything in my power to turn that bar off through options or hacking. I love the FFXI control scheme too much. To each their own though but I don't play a MMO to mash 50 millions buttons for 50 million situations. FFXI's macro system is nice. Windower enhances the macros even more with complex programming for certain situations.
#22 Dec 30 2009 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I think what SE needs to do to help with the macro situation is make less gear that is completely situational. I like the idea of macros, I feel that they make it easier to do a lot of common tasks. The gear swapping got way out of hand in FFXI (to the point where if you weren't using spellcast you were almost shunned be a good chunk of the community).

I am curious to see how SE handles gear and macros in 14. I also hope to see them embrace user created plugins... While they are able to develop a great game, it is the end user that can fully understand what is useful and what isn't. It would be nice to see them cooperate with the playerbase to build decent plugins for the game.
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#23 Dec 30 2009 at 4:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Macros were an awesome idea. What I think should be implemented is each weapon has a set of gear equip able to it. So as you change your weapons to a different "job" your gear changes with it (of course maybe a penalty for switching because SE doesn't want people changing mid battle). Then make it so you can only equip gear to weapons in town.

Quote:
I think what SE needs to do to help with the macro situation is make less gear that is completely situational.


Mostly this though.
#24 Dec 30 2009 at 6:16 PM Rating: Default
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I thought changing armor sets that fast was awesome, and very helpful...
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#25 Dec 30 2009 at 6:21 PM Rating: Default
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I'm making a Macro for this Thread, first one to guess it Wins.
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#26 Dec 30 2009 at 7:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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All MMOs have some kind of macro system. It is a staple of the genre, and a necessity. Some are good (like FFXI, which is easy to use, easy to learn), others are bad (can't stand EQ2's macro system). It's probably safe to say that XIV will have a macro system, and it will most likely be good, if XI is anything to go by. From what we saw at Gamescon, there will be a hotbar, but it looks to be extremely limited, maybe only 10 skills.

As for equipment swaps, I don't think we're going to have to worry about that in XIV. It already sounds like the devs know that itemization was a problem in XI, and they've taken steps to limit or outright do away with swapping during battle. With the battle/class system that we've seen thus far, gear swapping doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Sure, it'd be cool to switch in the middle of battle to a mage after taking heavy damage, but from what I understand of the system so far, it would probably be detrimental to growth in that class, and would ruin balance across the board.

We'll all just have to wait and see what they have up their sleeves. I'm personally not too worried about it though.
#27 Dec 30 2009 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
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I only really had one problem with FFXI's macro system.

I could literally set up a macro to use 3 Job Abilities, followed up with a Weapon Skill. At times, it felt like I wasn't playing my character. =/

The armor swapping did get out of hand, but unfortunately, it was almost a necessity if you wanted to be the best you could.
#28 Dec 30 2009 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Skeptic wrote:
I'm making a Macro for this Thread, first one to guess it Wins.


/em does the Lalafel dance!
/wait 1
/panic motion

?
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#29 Dec 30 2009 at 11:36 PM Rating: Decent
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As a pedantic red mage who wants to get every single debuff possible on every mob and haste/refresh on every teammate, I really hope that they change up the combat to not be so monotonous...
#30 Dec 31 2009 at 12:35 AM Rating: Good
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Excenmille wrote:

As for the equipment swapping meh. You know it's funny that I always come back to this and it's really sad but RMT were able to level to 75 in like a matter of 2 weeks or less. Manaburn and non-manaburn. They had level 1 equipment. Equipment doesn't add as much as say capped sword skill, capped enfeebling magic; etc. Equipment adds a decent bonus but it's not the end all. You can solo to 20 in level 1 equipment without any problems whatsoever. Because your combat skill, magic skill scales with your level vs the mob's level. Too much math but I would honestly love to know the minimum accuracy the game gives you with capped skill at each level versus even match, tough, very tough, incredibly tough. Anyone know of where this information might be? I mean, in dunes there's some people that have a level 1 sword and it actually doesn't do too bad against monsters because your sword skill is capped versus mob. Attack and accuracy bonus. Equipment will be beneficial but it will never make or break anything in the game. As bad as RMT are they have proven that in the end equipment never mattered. Maybe if you low man stuff like nowadays.


At low levels, maybe you don't notice gear. But at 70+, gear absolutely matters. At 75 gear matters more than any of your other stats. Even with an A+ rank (combat) skill, a merit-less character only has 268 Accuracy + DEX bonus. Even if you're generous and say it's a Mithra THF/NIN at 75 (80 base DEX), that means that with a statless dagger that character would have a base of 298 Accuracy (A- skill is 265, iirc, which would be 258 + 40 from DEX). And you can't just say EM, T, VT mob - mobs have differing evasion values. I'm pretty sure the value for Greater Colibri is nailed down pretty hard at 334-339 (lv81 - lv82). Before level correction (which is going to *lower* hit rate), that equates to an abysmal 57% hit rate on the lv81 birds. If you consider level correction (-4 Acc/level difference), you would actually have an averaged 45% hit rate.

Basic combat skill, while useful, is not nearly enough of a contribution to say that it's more important than gear at high levels; particularly at level 75.
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#31 Dec 31 2009 at 12:58 AM Rating: Default
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i liked all the gear swapping, it made your gear important and made having all of it important.

personally they need to make a pvp game like this and quit doing with the no switching gear in battles. i hated ballista just cause of the gear swap restriction in it.

your gear changed for a reason they were good for different things. even if you had to change them b4 battles then your still macro'ing sets. or you enjoy fiddling around with changing your gear every time.

also though the weapon will be fixed to a person in battle in ffxiv i'm hopping that all the other gear is changable during battles. though with the faster pass of the game i don't know if they will be doing this or not. it will probably work like after mob dies or time off mob and out of attack b4 being able to change weapons.

Edited, Dec 31st 2009 2:08am by HADESweeble
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