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#1 Dec 31 2009 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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Early on in XI, many of us learned how difficult it was to amass the gil needed to afford even the most mediocre of gears. In some cases, entire jobs were abandoned at various levels due to the sudden realization of the amount of funding that would be required to simply continue on effectively. This, no doubt, was a major factor in the footprint of RMT activity within the game. If one cannot afford to play the job they love, simply because they do not have the time and/nor wish to spend more time farming than actually enjoying time at their position, something should be addressed.

The funniest drop I ever saw in my career was: You find a Manji Shuriken on the Yagudo Herald. I always thought it redundant to even slot items like these on the AH as singles - seriously, who in their right mind is going to bother? I actually tried farming this item because I did not want to spend an unlikely minimum of 20k/stack, but after dropping 10 Yagudo w/ TH2, I realized it was much more (um..) sensible to find a Smithy and pay him to HQ for me. It cost me at least 50k gil per level to be the best I could at my job from 48-55. I find it astounding that I could take RDM to 75 with a fraction of that cost, generously.

I would like to see a bit more balance in availability of necessities in regard to all classes. Of course there are NPC's - but in regard to this item and many others like it, they are not consistently stocked, and when they are the price is grossly inflated. I've always sort of wondered if there was a way to govern NPC item availability at a flat rate/quantity while somewhat inflating the price. Perhaps a modest quantity which is refreshed every 24hrs. and is regulated through an individual server database?
#2 Dec 31 2009 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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I understand how you feel. There were a few jobs I leveled(I'm looking at you RNG and NIN) that felt ridiculously expensive to level. I'm really hoping they make things about even, regardless of the job you pick up.

The only job I see having an issue right from the start, is the Archer job they have set up. If it's anything like Ranger from FFXI, they could be having problems. Hopefully SE doesn't make ammo too hard/expensive to acquire.
#3 Dec 31 2009 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope there are some item based jobs, but for the most part I think that SE will be making those items more easily available. Possibly having HQs be the hard to get pieces, or something of the sort.
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#4 Dec 31 2009 at 11:14 PM Rating: Default
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It was indeed extremely difficult to farm gil in ffxi but there was really good ways to obtain large quantities of it without a whole lot of effort. Most players bought gil to level crafts to 100 and others just simply bought it.

I really think that it will be easier to make gil in ffxiv because that would kill off the RMT. If it's easy for players to obtain gil then the players won't have any need to buy gil.
#5 Dec 31 2009 at 11:24 PM Rating: Good
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That's really not the way it works. If gil is 10x easier to make everything sold by players is going to cost 10x as much. In a player driven economy the only way to stop RMT is by preventing them from playing the game. And if the economy isn't player driven then everything is going to be either very easy to get, or it has to be quested. Which becomes a problem in the long run.

*Rated down for having a decent grasp of how economies work? **eyeroll** Luckily my give a **** is all gone.

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 1:00am by TheShadowWalker
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#6Frebaut, Posted: Dec 31 2009 at 11:26 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) for the mages. They will be getting a great deal on this game. By the way SE is describing this game they will get spells for free. Not to shabby. I just wonder how fast their skill will go up and/or if each skill will have its own. Healing magic, Light magic, enfeebling magic and so on. It also seems that each class will have a throwing weapon as well. That's pretty sweet. Oh ya so are the spells going to be abilities or you unlock them then need to buy the scroll? I bet they still need to buy the scroll.
#7 Dec 31 2009 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
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i found it easier and cheaper to farm the items required to make the stuff i needed rather than farm the gill... my time spent playing FFXI was spent usually spending 1-2 weeks farming all the materials needed so i could craft my own arrows/bolts and bullets (plus some ninja tools for profit making) so i could spend 1, maybe 2 nights leveling my ranger and get MAYBE an entire level in that time... lol
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#8 Jan 01 2010 at 12:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I really think that Guildeves system could replicate FoV/Treasure caskets to the next level thus helping to retain gear accessibility. I'm concerned for the Archer class because of the double cost of expendable ammo and durables. That's very unbalanced compared to say a Pugilist that only has to worry about their claws. I suppose SE could adjust bow repairs to the lowest level, but I still don't think it would be balanced. I'm hoping Archers get an extra incentive during their Guildeves to acquire gil/arrows to help defray costs.

The 3 jobs in XI now that are costly to level are NIN, RNG, and COR. All 3 of those jobs are more expensive than their counterparts. BRD/COR, RNG/other DD, NIN/PLD. People will argue that some items cost a lot of gil upfront, but consumables are what make you broke over time.

On the topic of NPC sales, SE really needs to cap the number of stuff a single person can purchase. It's entirely too easy to go to a guild and buy out all of the item and then ***** everyone else over. Actually, it's worse that that because people take the item and sell it back on the AH. My suggestion would be to sell to only main character and all mules should be unable to purchase. The sale goes by your IP plus you must be an Archer for example to buy arrows. If you're on blacksmith at a certain skill level, the NPC can sell you unique items. That will fix a lot of the problems we have in XI.
#9Frebaut, Posted: Jan 01 2010 at 2:25 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I agree almost with what you said except, being a archer to buy arrows. In ffxi, i believe it would not work because if i come across something for my other jobs i do not want to be that job to buy it. In ffxiv that wouldn't work because you can switch jobs on the fly and buy items = to your job. The best way is to make arrows cheap, super cheap or you get a percentage back after the battle if your successful. Or like you said you get arrows from guild leaves if you use him during battles. But we'll see what SE will do, I predict it will be the same as FFXI or very similar.
#10 Jan 01 2010 at 2:53 AM Rating: Default
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Maybe arrows shot at an opponent could be picked back up after the fight? That would help, at least a little with ranged classes.
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#11 Jan 01 2010 at 5:40 AM Rating: Decent
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TheShadowWalker wrote:
That's really not the way it works. If gil is 10x easier to make everything sold by players is going to cost 10x as much. In a player driven economy the only way to stop RMT is by preventing them from playing the game. And if the economy isn't player driven then everything is going to be either very easy to get, or it has to be quested. Which becomes a problem in the long run.

*Rated down for having a decent grasp of how economies work? **eyeroll** Luckily my give a **** is all gone.


Exactly.

Let's just hope that SE will make sure the prices of essential spells and decent gear (although "decent" is a relative term most of the time) things will not skyrocket/available for anyone who wants to put a reasonable amount of effort in obtaining it, let's hope that they will come up with a sophisticated method to eliminate real money traders...

...but most of all: let's hope that people will finally stop buying game money.

You know who you are, and don't you ever think that I believed your "I became rich by playing the AH" explanation for even a nanosecond (my apologies to the few exceptions who indeed got tremendously lucky once or twice, you guys are ok).

Can't wait for FFXIV. I am anxious to see what the game is like, but also how the economy will develop and why.

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 6:47am by Maaia
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#12 Jan 01 2010 at 6:55 AM Rating: Default
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And if the economy isn't player driven then everything is going to be either very easy to get, or it has to be quested. Which becomes a problem in the long run.


But less of a problem than RMT by far. I'm not naive enough to think that anything but a player driven economy is on the table, but I don't think it's essential at all. Actually I think in the bigger picture, it's more detrimental.

btw, it doesn't have to be either easy to get or quested-- it can also be purchased or crafted. Plenty of single player RPGs use systems like these that restrict easy access to high grade weapons, and there's virtually no difference between a player economy and an NPC economy. At the very least, there doesn't have to be.

Arrows and ninja tools should have been much easier to obtain though.
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#13 Jan 01 2010 at 7:05 AM Rating: Default
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Maybe arrows shot at an opponent could be picked back up after the fight? That would help, at least a little with ranged classes.


Really fond of this concept! However, I think it would be a convenient by-product of maintaining good accuracy in allowing only arrows that connected to be reclaimed. Something like this: You fire 10 bolts at a Goblin and 6 connect - upon the its death, You find 6 bolts on the Goblin Furrier.

Quote:
for the mages. They will be getting a great deal on this game. By the way SE is describing this game they will get spells for free.


I wonder if this means spells will automatically become available once the required level is attained. Goodbye scroll farming and Ichi quest! :D

Quote:
It was indeed extremely difficult to farm gil in ffxi but there was really good ways to obtain large quantities of it without a whole lot of effort. Most players bought gil to level crafts to 100 and others just simply bought it.


The best reliable farming I ever did solo was in King Ranperre's Tomb. With TH3, a good server market and little to no competition, I could easily pull down at least 100k/hr. there with only 2 mules. Coupling this regimen with a 100+3 Leathercraft friend made my profits even greater in Nomad's Mantle HQs. However, before the graces of Treasure Hunter became available to me, it was farming hides and miscellaneous drops like everyone else.
#14 Jan 01 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Default
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The only way to get rid of RMT is if SE sets up their own shop and undercuts the RMT sites. This probably will never happen so RMT's are just something we will have to continue to deal with
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#15 Jan 01 2010 at 11:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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KeeperOfTheStaff wrote:
It was indeed extremely difficult to farm gil in ffxi but there was really good ways to obtain large quantities of it without a whole lot of effort. Most players bought gil to level crafts to 100 and others just simply bought it.


OMG really did everyone do that? **** I spent lots of aquired gil that was farmed etc. I remember getting my Lu's after spending two weeks straight in the Sactuary of Z'Itah farming beast blood etc - great days....lol great grind.

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 5:46pm by EdyNOTB

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 5:47pm by EdyNOTB

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 5:48pm by EdyNOTB
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#16 Jan 01 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the issue with farming is that in FFXI there were few known hot spots that were overcrowded... most the time it's people lacking the research and finding that niche.

Personally, I wish all mobs dropped money like in the older titles. That way it doesn't matter what you farm you're always making money.
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#17 Jan 01 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I think that in FFXI's original design, Square tried to use cost as a form of job balancing. The high cost of leveling RNG or NIN was supposed to counterbalance their overpowered aspects in the same way that a PLD's high defense was balanced by its weak offense. During RNG's heyday, a lot of players used that argument as justification.

But it became apparent pretty quickly that this idea was fundamentally flawed. The high cost might have made individual players reconsider their choice of job when comparing the merits of each, but it didn't make a difference to parties seeking members. If RNG was the best DD and NIN was the best tank, that's what they wanted, end of story. Other DDs and tanks paid the price.

Square learned its lesson, I think, which is why we had the RNG nerf and some slight tweaks to NIN's abilities and expenses.

The catch is that if high cost isn't a justification for a more powerful job, then it's also not fair for one approximately equal job to cost astronomically more than another. So the tl;dr version is: I basically agree with the OP. Job costs need to be at least roughly equal, just as job abilities do.

Quote:
That's really not the way it works. If gil is 10x easier to make everything sold by players is going to cost 10x as much. In a player driven economy the only way to stop RMT is by preventing them from playing the game. And if the economy isn't player driven then everything is going to be either very easy to get, or it has to be quested. Which becomes a problem in the long run.

This is basically true, but while you can't get rid of RMT in a player-driven economy, you can do things to reduce their appeal. RMT is much less prevalent in a game like WoW simply because money isn't as important. If players see other alternatives to spending huge amounts of currency, they won't turn as much to RMT.

Not that I particularly endorse that approach. I for one like the hands-off, free market style of FFXI's economy, RMT or not.
#18 Jan 01 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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With pretty much everyone agreeing on ammo for RNG being a monetary issue, how do you think they should go about it, this time around?

There's a couple ways they could do it:

1. Have ammo be incredibly inexpensive, while having higher quality ammo be craftable. The cheap ammo would be perfectly capable of doing the job, while the craftable ammo would easily be better.

2. Make ammo have a durability. WoW developers talked about doing this(not sure if they're still going to, because I know they ran into complications with it), but you'd basically make ammo a thing you buy once, and it has a durability like your other equipment. Obviously you'd have to make it so it's durability count is higher, but you could simply repair it when you repaired the rest of your equipment.
#19 Jan 01 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
That's really not the way it works. If gil is 10x easier to make everything sold by players is going to cost 10x as much. In a player driven economy the only way to stop RMT is by preventing them from playing the game. And if the economy isn't player driven then everything is going to be either very easy to get, or it has to be quested. Which becomes a problem in the long run.

*Rated down for having a decent grasp of how economies work? **eyeroll** Luckily my give a **** is all gone.


Exactly, even if gil is easier to obtain, it just means the price of everything rises. Its not about how much gil you have, its about the value of the gil that you have. You can have 400k and not be able to buy anything, or you can have 400k and be rich, the amount of gil you have didn't change, but the value is different at that point in time. Also when players control the economy if gil becomes easy to obtain, than the prices rise to counteract that.

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I understand how you feel. There were a few jobs I leveled(I'm looking at you RNG and NIN) that felt ridiculously expensive to level. I'm really hoping they make things about even, regardless of the job you pick up.


This will probably not happen simply because using spells are different from directly relying on gear and weapons. A spell is a spell, they are not going to make cure do 0 just because they don't have awesome gear on, but for melee, their damage is directly related to their armor and gear. They are not going to make a bard song do nothing just because he/she doesn't have awesome gear on. Thats just how it goes, mages have less of a dependency on gear than melee.

Solutions:

I see a few things that FFXIV has setup that could and probably will potentially solve this problem. The first thing being the Guildleve system. We already know that Guildleves will be the most important system in the game that deals with character development. Guildleves could greatly reduce the cost needed for classes to advance. Guildleves could also provide you with rewards great enough to support the cost of advancement.

The second thing being, the armor degrading system. This system could potentially balance out the cost of the classes to advance. We know that weapon degrading will also be a huge part of character advancement and simply the game period. This is something that all classes will have to deal with, and will probably balance the cost out, so that every job has a somewhat equal expensive to advance.

These two things combined with the knowledge SE has gained from FFXI leads me to think that the class expense to advance will not be an issue in FFXIV.




#20 Jan 01 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Default
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Jubs wrote:
1. Have ammo be incredibly inexpensive, while having higher quality ammo be craftable. The cheap ammo would be perfectly capable of doing the job, while the craftable ammo would easily be better.


That would be one solution yes - it corresponds with my "decent gear" idea - but...then there will always be the problem of partymembers not accepting mediocre gear or ammo that might do the job but do not speed things up.

For instance, there was a time when many AF pieces were seen as more than adequate. SE even designed them for that specific job at that specifoc level. Later on using these same pieces at corresponding levels were seen as a sign of laziness and incompetence.

Seems good enough for solo play though.
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#21 Jan 01 2010 at 5:16 PM Rating: Default
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As soon as SE decided to have armor and weapons degrade they drew a huge line in the sand as far as job costs. I played Everquest for a bit and assuming the system is similar, tanks will have to dedicate most of their money and time to keeping up with armor repairs. That fact alone made me give a mage job heavy consideration. I started FFXI as a ranger and I remember having to say many times that I can't xp now cause I need to make gil to buy supplies. I have no interest in doing that again.
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#22 Jan 01 2010 at 11:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
That would be one solution yes - it corresponds with my "decent gear" idea - but...then there will always be the problem of partymembers not accepting mediocre gear or ammo that might do the job but do not speed things up.

For instance, there was a time when many AF pieces were seen as more than adequate. SE even designed them for that specific job at that specifoc level. Later on using these same pieces at corresponding levels were seen as a sign of laziness and incompetence.

Seems good enough for solo play though.


I'm of the mind that unless you're doing completely cutting edge content, that requires the best of everything, "decent" gear is more than adequate for what we're doing. People geared this way won't have any problems with me. :D

Anyway, I've yet to come across a player in WoW who has complained about my hunter using vendor ammo vs crafted ammo. They have the system I'm referring to, vendor(cheap) vs crafted. It's simply not an issue, because, basically, all your damage comes from your bow/gun itself, and only a portion comes from the ammo itself. While the crafted ammo IS better, it's not the ammo itself that is the most important thing.

The way it worked in FFXI, however, the ammo played a much larger role, not to mention the special effects that a lot of ammo had on them. It really depends on how big a role SE wants ammo to take, in an Archer's overall damage/utility.

As for AF, I agree that it was designed for that specific level range. I'm not a fan of a piece of gear being the best for that slot for 25+ levels. Although, with all the trouble you had to go through to collect your whole AF set...you'd think they would last a while(where in some cases, it actually did).

Edited, Jan 2nd 2010 1:08am by Jubs
#23 Jan 02 2010 at 12:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm of the mind that unless you're doing completely cutting edge content, that requires the best of everything, "decent" gear is more than adequate for what we're doing. People geared this way won't have any problems with me. :D


i can only speak for the earlier times in FFXI... but back then you really had to make a name of yourself on your server if you wanted to get in any really worthwhile leveling/skillup/etc.. parties.. so always having the optimum gear and playing your class properly was vital

Edited, Jan 2nd 2010 1:37am by Jenovaomega
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#24 Jan 02 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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i can only speak for the earlier times in FFXI... but back then you really had to make a name of yourself on your server if you wanted to get in any really worthwhile leveling/skillup/etc.. parties.. so always having the optimum gear and playing your class properly was vital


I know what you mean, to an extent. It never really bothered me if people showed up in something that wasn't top of the line, but a lot of people would consider you "bad." I'd say something if I'm leveling with a RNG using Lv 1 bolts at lv40, because that's just lazy.

It's almost as if certain gear is a requirement after a point in time. If you were a WAR, DRK, or SAM, and you didn't have a hauby once you hit 59, you went out of your way to get one. It was just that good.

It honestly has more to do with the player base's mentality, then game design, though.
#25 Jan 02 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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1. Have ammo be incredibly inexpensive, while having higher quality ammo be craftable. The cheap ammo would be perfectly capable of doing the job, while the craftable ammo would easily be better.


This would be perfect, early stages of RNG you could buy the ammo and it wasn't as bad, it's when you get to the mid levels you see a strain on the wallet.

Quote:
2. Make ammo have a durability. WoW developers talked about doing this(not sure if they're still going to, because I know they ran into complications with it), but you'd basically make ammo a thing you buy once, and it has a durability like your other equipment. Obviously you'd have to make it so it's durability count is higher, but you could simply repair it when you repaired the rest of your equipment.


That might be hard to implement. Maybe if it were a quiver or pouch with infinite arrows I can see this happening, but if they're consumable and have a durability the costs will skyrocket.
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#26 Jan 02 2010 at 11:39 AM Rating: Default
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X10 easier gil will only = x10 item prices, if item and materials drop rate is still slow. If they made gobs and gigas drop 1,000 gil per kill now in XI inflation would take over because ingots, cloths, etc would still be a rare drop and demand would still be higher than supply. This is what happened in the big rmt x-mas sale years back. So much cheap gil was bought by players and the rarity/difficulty of items remained the same, so bidding wars took over and price when through the roof.

If they made gil 10x easier to get, and increased drop rates across the board for stuff like materials needed for crafting, then 10x easier gil won't always = 10x the price. It would only equal 10x the price on rare item drops from something like an HNM where the majority of people will not have access to; so those people will be willing pay 10x the price if they want to buy it bad enough. WoW economy is an example of this. Gold is so easy to get, items are so easy to get, and prices are cheap in relation to how much gold you have. You can farm/quest for a few hours and have enough gold to buy epic gear. So many people are sitting on 1000's of gold with nothing to buy except better gear to pimp out their alts.



Easier gil, more people leveling crafts. Increased drops on items and materials will make crafted items cheaper as anyone could farm the items in a short period of time. If more people are farming these items and crafting the supply will meet the demand and bring costs down. If V-claw was even 1% drop chance from normal scorps in addition to drops from bcnm and NM, then a scorp harness would be selling for 10k, do to the removal of rare item for the recipe.

It's the difficulty of obtaining and the rarity of items that make them big ticket items. The value of gil will always raise and lower in relation to the finished product supply. HQ item will modify the equation do to the rarity of chance of HQ on items. But if a steady cheap supply of not-so-rare items were available, then the HQ chance premium will also be reduced as people will have more cheap chances at the HQ.
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#27 Jan 02 2010 at 12:57 PM Rating: Default
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I doubt they wont have any unfordable jobs at the start.
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#28 Jan 02 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Jubs wrote:
The way it worked in FFXI, however, the ammo played a much larger role, not to mention the special effects that a lot of ammo had on them. It really depends on how big a role SE wants ammo to take, in an Archer's overall damage/utility.


It's indeed hard to come up with possible solutions for possible problems in a game whose economy and all its dynamics is still unknown to us.

Jubs wrote:
It honestly has more to do with the player base's mentality, then game design, though.


Exactly. Although I must say that, during the hyperinflation days, people started to pick less on others for using mediocre/simple gear. Eventually common sense did prevail (in fact, showing up in a 25 million gil SH all of a sudden looked kinda shady).

If SE is capable of keeping RMT away (goodbye bots, more rare/ex gear (and why not a limited amount of drops of a specific item per person, like... 1 or 2 Leaping Boots per character?)) then the economy should work out fine.

Working hard and saving money in order to get some awesome gear is also an important element that keeps people ticking.
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#29 Jan 02 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Default
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If SE is capable of keeping RMT away (goodbye bots, more rare/ex gear (and why not a limited amount of drops of a specific item per person, like... 1 or 2 Leaping Boots per character?)) then the economy should work out fine.


I don't know about limiting drops per character, as that seems like a loose definition of rare/ex. Maybe govern the drop rate with an instance such as only being to attain it under specific conditions. Leaping Lizzy could be killed by any job Lv15-20, and Valkurm Emperor not much higher.

I always liked the pop conditions of Golden-Tongued Culberry which was made possible by attaining an Odorous Knife and its HQ. Coveted items such as Uggalepih Pendant could be attained through AH at an asking price, or by farming the Knife's synth items and having them successfully synthesized. You would then need at least 6/6 of 75 to defeat this NM. You might say, "Well, what's to stop RMT from farming the items themselves?" If I remember correctly, the White Steel needed for the Knife was rare at least (same with the lumber), and Temple of Uggalepih could be dangerous to even a small group of 75's.

In a nutshell, don't mess with the drop or the drop rate, simply make it a little more difficult to obtain worthwhile items.
#30 Jan 02 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Default
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harder to obtain worthwhile item just inflates prices/rmt
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#31 Jan 02 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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mcboxx wrote:
I always liked the pop conditions of Golden-Tongued Culberry which was made possible by attaining an Odorous Knife and its HQ. Coveted items such as Uggalepih Pendant could be attained through AH at an asking price, or by farming the Knife's synth items and having them successfully synthesized. You would then need at least 6/6 of 75 to defeat this NM. You might say, "Well, what's to stop RMT from farming the items themselves?" If I remember correctly, the White Steel needed for the Knife was rare at least (same with the lumber), and Temple of Uggalepih could be dangerous to even a small group of 75's.

In a nutshell, don't mess with the drop or the drop rate, simply make it a little more difficult to obtain worthwhile items.


Nice. Basically it all comes down to making it almost impossible (hence not profitable) or pointless for RMT to monopolize NM's and/or areas.

Btw, it would already make a huge difference if SE would be able to get rid of the usual cheats. I wonder how many days extra I would live if they would extend my life with all the hours players have been camping a NM he or she would never have been able to claim anyway due to cheating.

I don't think that a fair game with sound fundamentals - totally up to SE - could yield an economy that will disourage people to play any further.

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#32 Jan 03 2010 at 12:52 AM Rating: Default
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Ok well lemme preface this with:

I'm pretty sure FFXI made me a glutton for punishment. I love it.


I don't mind an expensive job. I kinda like them now.

I leveled RNG as my first 75. Then Sam, Blu, DRG.

Then COR...

Sam and Drg.. not AS expensive at all (Sans Hagun, which I did have at one point.)

But Obviously RNG, and COR is arguably the most expensive job. And if you played Blu right at all it is VERY expensive, given the sheer amount of gear you need to swap.

Melee accuracy set, str set, mnd set, int set, str+dex set, and resting set.


But you'll also notice that players of these jobs fall into 2 categories:

1) Crap players who skimp by
2) Ballin' *** players who go all out.

I was number 2 and you get a reputation for being a GOOD player of those jobs. I like the hurdle it takes to be good at your job because it weeds out the mediocre.

Not taking away from any of the mages but you can do a comparable job as rdm in crap gear or baller gear and people don't really care.


So in summation, I would like there to be some psuado expensive jobs, but I REALLY wish for Archer to get resuable arrows or something. I really don't want the 10k a stack demon arrows or the 20k a stack Steel Bullets to make a comeback.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2010 1:59am by Louiscool
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#33 Jan 03 2010 at 1:14 AM Rating: Decent
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I've been thinking about this subject quite a bit. I think it's very possible SE has learned from FFXI's flaws. I remember reading an old interview in which SE said they never expected RNG's to spam ammo. That's probably why they never predicted how broken the job was prior to the nerf. The same lack of testing on NIN as well. On the subject of COR, I noticed a distinct difference in the style NA and JP COR's play the job. JP's play the job like a BRD/whm/nin for the most part and it's cheap that way. NA's tend to sub /rng or /war and pretend we're a RNG in disguise.

I'm hoping SE realizes how unbalanced it would be to have an Archer pay twice for their job. IMO, all they have to do is bring back Scavenge to pick up the arrows expended and recycle them back in town. The bow string is gonna snap if not properly maintained. Let's hope Archer is balanced.

On a side note, I'm very interested in playing Archer this time around. The released images look an awful lot like the Green Arrow from Smallville. That dude is such a badass.
#34 Jan 03 2010 at 4:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Asymmetrical consumable expenses are an attempt by the developers to increase the presence of an RP element in a game. "You shoot projectiles? Well it makes RP sense then that you would have to buy them, and you would run out." Except adding these kinds of RP elements almost always results in failure. Large market commercial games for mass players can not function well with an RP basis for game play. It can work in settings like D&D because you have a game specifically built for and adjusted to the preferences of a few specific players, but tastes for RP vary widely and so as the scale increase so does the potential for annoyance. These RP implementations are always always made inconsistently and without thought. So a Ranger has to buy the arrows he expends through combat, but a Samurai never has to have his blade sharpened? By adding a single feature that seems like it would make the game more real, the game is made less real by the inconsistency. It's as silly as making an archer class that has to buy arrows, but a gunslinger class who arbitrarily has infinite ammo. The game ends up feeling poorly put together.

Price is also a terrible way to differentiate classes. It creates an insurmountable imbalance.
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