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What are your fears or worries regrading FFXIV?Follow

#1 Jan 01 2010 at 6:11 AM Rating: Good
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Hiya,

So I was wondering what worries or fears come to mind when you think of FFXIV? I have a few, however the one thing I fear most is the fact that FFXIV might try to carter to the mainstream gamer or maybe I should say the "causal" gamer. While I understand that FFXI fan base may not be as large as say WoW's however the fact that FFXI was a little hard to get into at first in my eyes only furthered the great dynamics that FFXI housed.

I do hope that FFXIV proves to be a little more user friendly, however I do hope that it does not compromise the depth one gained from the unique game and player functionality that was deemed by mainly as "boring" or "time extensive." The grind in FFXI allowed me to put more pride into my one 75, hehe fighting for that last .1 skill up to get 100 in Woodworking was stressful but enjoyable. Each day I wanted to throw my keyboard at the wall due to the stress of having to make more arrows or bolts for my RNG. The infamous yag neckless grind was a pain but each and every slow and mundane task truly did add a certain depth to my tiny Tarutaru Ranger which in turn developed into pride for my Tarutaru Ranger.

I'm sorry for the wall of text and pointless rant please forgive me but I just wanted to get that out the way. Sorry about my spelling and grammar English is not my native tongue.
#2 Jan 01 2010 at 6:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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My main fear at the moment is that the combat system will get tired quickly, I just hope it plays better than how it sounds (so far). I don't like the idea of having to manually select every single action I want to do - and I don't like the idea of standing there doing nothing if I haven't selected an action - or if I'm still deciding on what to do - or if I'm saving up for a big attack. Just the concept of standing there in battle pose doing absolutely nothing, while getting beaten up by the monster irks me.

Well I'm sure the SE crew will be able to make it fun, but at the moment my fear is that it won't work. We'll see though.
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#3 Jan 01 2010 at 6:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
(...)hehe fighting for that last .1 skill up to get 100 in Woodworking was stressful but enjoyable. Each day I wanted to throw my keyboard at the wall due to the stress of having to make more arrows or bolts for my RNG. The infamous yag neckless grind was a pain(...)


An interesting psychological phenomenon called "cognitive dissonance reduction", btw. "It sucks, I hate it, but I am doing this **** => It must be the best thing I ever had, so I better be mightily proud of it."

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

P.S.: I hope I didn't sound too offensive. Perhaps you really, really liked it. But just out of personal preference, I would be happy to see SE implement a system that rewards my ability, and not just my endless, endless, endless grind-resistance.

P.S.II: Did I just fall into a trap?

#4 Jan 01 2010 at 7:07 AM Rating: Default
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That the game will be ****!! But it looks way to good to be that. Come on SE has great game design, So i'm in balls deep in this game. Even if they went wrong it will be the best mmo to date, then give it a year or 3 weeks to fix the stuff or some of it. I have a lot of trust in SE. FFXI was a test for what they want in FFXIV. They want it to make it work. Its been 5 years into development. So they know what their doing. and i believe that they tested ffxi with some stuff ( FOV ) to see how it would work. FoV and Campain Ops are like guild lieves i believe. But tats just me.

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#5 Jan 01 2010 at 7:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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I hope that FFXIV will be fun for both casual AND the hardcore players for a very long time.

I fear a game that lacks a social aspect. I fear empty social linkshells because almost everybody is doing endgame stuff. Not because they like the particular event, not because they like the people in that event linkshell, but only because doing something with 36 people for two years is the only way to get a certain, say ... hat. And if you don't have that hat you will eventually be left out.

So I hope for a game that rewards skills and creativity more than the availability of time and willingness to prefer "professional players" who don't give a **** about anyone but themselves (although they exactly know how many ls points and relevant jobs you have) over friends.
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#6 Jan 01 2010 at 7:18 AM Rating: Good
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What are your fears or worries regrading FFXIV?


Casual player WoW clone.
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#7 Jan 01 2010 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
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"P.S.: I hope I didn't sound too offensive. Perhaps you really, really liked it. But just out of personal preference, I would be happy to see SE implement a system that rewards my ability, and not just my endless, endless, endless grind-resistance."

Sorry I fail at quoting. Ye, I know my feelings follow a contradictory ideology, and you are right these are my own personal feelings. While I would also love to be rewarding not my own ability not my "grind-resistance" sadly in my eyes it is not worth it due to that style of game play will bring forth a new player base that will in turn mold into another WoW player base. I feel the grind is needed to keep FFXIV a game of peace and minimal immaturity on the level of "Allakhazam' tears can sure cancer, but he never cries."

While grinding is not fun, it also allows us to have the great community that I'm sure most of us have yet to find in any other online RPG.

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 8:57am by Fattyfoo
#8 Jan 01 2010 at 7:50 AM Rating: Default
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I'm worried about bots. I'm currently playing Aion and there is bots all over the place. It's not like FFXI where you will occasionally see some discreet botting in Linkshells/by RMT groups, but on Aion it's just RIDICULOUS. Like 20 bots all swarming together in a single around/around a town, and just overall bots in every area you go killing, looting killing, get killed, go back to where they were. I know there's bots for FFXI but it is not that bad and you can't bot to level up. This is because of mandatory group play and teamwork, which a bot doesn't have (yet?).

I'm also scared that it's too good and I'll get addicted/it sucks and I have no other MMORPG except Aion/FFXI and nothing to look forward to until Blade & Soul, and who knows if that will be good.

Also, I'm very fearful about the PS3 version. I think it's pretty awesome that this game is coming to consoles but after trying to do endgame with my 360 and PS3 I'm just not confident in how well MMORPGs translate on consoles... I hope everything is very optimized and a lot of work gets put into both versions, and I hope they can give enough room in the game world to expand indefinitely

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 8:58am by Poubelle
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#9 Jan 01 2010 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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The animations could be better (alpha demo had good animations when it came to running and so on, but the fighting seemed a bit clunky animation wise). I'm not really that worried though, those kind of issues will disappear during the beta stage at latest.
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#10 Jan 01 2010 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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Casual player WoW clone.


This and a too easy game to bother with.
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#11 Jan 01 2010 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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My fears of FFXIV-
1) Battle system. Looks a little strange so far, but can't say if its good or bad until I get to try it.
2) Class change "on the fly". Could cause a broken system where people can solo or duo stuff meant to be harder content for groups. Again can't say for sure until game is released and see how it works, and what the content will be like.
3) Customer Service. Hopefully [GM] will be able to help with more than just copy/pasting generic replies and advertising game campaigns.

No fears-
1) Exploration. The world looks incredible.
2) Story lines. SE does awesome in creating detailed and entertaining stories.




RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
What are your fears or worries regrading FFXIV?


Casual player WoW clone.


I'm so tired of seeing this. What exactly is a "WoW Clone"? I only see TV commercial blitz for one WoW, haven't seen any other TV Commercials. When I search for WoW Clone, all I see is people talking in forums, no website for games called WoW Clone can be found.

If you weren't speaking technically as "Clone". I assume you mean a game that is highly popular accross the world for a player based of people from 6 year olds to 60 year olds with IQ's from 70-150, and gamer styles of rarely play to hardcore 24/7? A game with millions of subscribers that and is making money hand over fist. A game with so much income that it can afford to keep making expansions as long as the devs keep having ideas? A game so dominating in a market that it is a household word?

If so, I still haven't seen that game either. I've seen games are similar to WoW. Similar as in, they can be played in small blocks of time. They have quests that award exp, money and/or items. Games that use a "hotbar" on your screen for your actions. Games that can leveled to top and they do endgame content. FFXI would be similar to WoW in this aspect, you can play in small blocks of time. You can do quests for items, money, exp. You get to max level and do endgame content.

Seems to me that all games are different. Although similarities in game features and mechanics do occur.



Sorry for the rant, I'm sick, just woke up, dog peed on carpet, and inlaws are visiting.



Edited, Jan 1st 2010 9:58am by RobbyFaces
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#12 Jan 01 2010 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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What exactly is a "WoW Clone"?


A game that copies older MMO's without even attempting at delivering something new or innovative.

Do lots of simple quests gotten from NPC's for exp. Level your class X to level X and improve your skills using a skill tree. At the cap, raid in instances with no real difference among them. Content focusing on getting to the level cap as fast as possible, while ignoring low- and midgame.

Action style combat (point and click). Very easy gameplay so that anyone can get to the cap. Grouping is mostly ignored until level cap.

Trying to do both PvP and PvE at the same time with varying success (=most of the time an epic fail in both aspects). Making the game just for the sake of gaining as much money as possible, instead of making a good, original title (which in turn would make the game profit just as much if not a lot more).

Keeping elements from WoW and it's predecessors that should not be there anymore. "No race can level every class. Only one class per character."

That is a WoW clone.

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 6:23pm by Hyanmen

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 6:24pm by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#13 Jan 01 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Edit: ^ what he said ^

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 4:27pm by RedGalka
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#14 Jan 01 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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My biggest fear is that SE will continue on the path of selling in-game items to the point where a few hours and one hundred bucks would equal months of work.
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#15 Jan 01 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
What exactly is a "WoW Clone"?


A game that copies older MMO's without even attempting at delivering something new or innovative.


Can you imagine the discussion at a Dev brain storming session? Dev 1, "How about we add a quest for players to do this?" Dev 2, "Can't, it's been done in DDO." Dev4, "How about this?" Dev 1, "Nope, Eve has that." Chief Dev, "Well what do players prefer to do in other games?" ALL devs, "level fast as possible to get to huge epic battles at end game." Chief Dev, "Well then lets give them what they want, no point in making a game nobody wants to play."

Man it's got to be hard to find something that has not been done before. Considering there's 100's of mmos released over the years, each adding their own little twist to something to make it their own.

Even quests, how many different style quests can there be? Kill x number mobs. Gather x number items. Talk to NPC a and b.

It's hard to be innovative years after the trails have been blazed.

Hyanmen wrote:
Do lots of simple quests gotten from NPC's for exp. Level your class X to level X and improve your skills using a skill tree. At the cap, raid in instances with no real difference among them. Content focusing on getting to the level cap as fast as possible, while ignoring low- and midgame.


A game only has 2 options to level characters. Quest exp, or grind mobs for exp. Very few games use straight up mob grinding because it's not as popular with the majority of players in NA, EU. Grind is more accepted in the East. Even with "no character level" you still have skill grinds.

And fast to top will always be the majority of gamer style. People don't say "I'm only going to level to 30 then run the lvl 30 dungeon from then on." As long as there is a top level, that is what people are going to shoot for. That is why there is minimum content for those levels in most every game. FFXI for example, why is the content for the 30-40 range, other than exp parties? WoW has dungeons that provided a challenge to a group running it at the suggested level. And there is dungoens for every level range from 15-80. But most people skip this in the rush to top level. Lotro has "Book Quests" (the main story line chain) that starts from level 10ish on to level 65. These quests grant exp and as you level through them, more open up.

Hyanmen wrote:
Action style combat (point and click). Very easy gameplay so that anyone can get to the cap. Grouping is mostly ignored until level cap.


That's not WoW, that's every game on the market. There are many group quests while leveling in WoW, most people skip them and do other quests. It has less to do with the game, and more to do with people perferring to level solo. Look at FFXI now soloing is easier, nobody wants to group until after level 20. A lot more people are also soloing all the way to 75 now with the addtion of campaign, FoV, signet adjustments, exp/mob adjustments.

Hyanmen wrote:
Trying to do both PvP and PvE at the same time with varying success (=most of the time an epic fail in both aspects).


Indeed. Trying to balance one character for both pve and pvp results in failure for the most part.

Hyanmen wrote:
Making the game just for the sake of gaining as much money as possible, instead of making a good, original title (which in turn would make the game profit just as much if not a lot more).


Not true, original does not always equal profit. Original out of the box titles tend to become niche markets. Niche markets don't make as much profit as a global title.

And games are made by companies for one reason, money. They dont make a game to please 100 people, they try to make it please 100,000's. Talos from darkfall tries to portray that he designed darkfall out of his own vision of what a game should be. Be damned any profit to a company, he just wanted his vision to become reality for people to enjoy. Well you can see where this will end up in a year or so.

Hyanmen wrote:
Keeping elements from WoW and it's predecessors that should not be there anymore. "No race can level every class. Only one class per character."


Whats wrong with 1 class per character? As long as you don't have to go through Cop on every character, no big deal. You still level each class from 1, regardless if its a new character or same character. A plus to this is inventory, no holding gear for 10 different classes.



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#16 Jan 01 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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No one here is saying the system doesn't work for WoW, but some people just don't want to see it in FFXIV. You really can't claim that WoW doesn't have a distinct feel to it, because of the aforementioned qualities. There are plenty of different ways of going about making an MMO and I'm quite sure SE isn't going to take the WoW clone approach for FFXIV.

Understand that people aren't always literal. Sometimes we use "figures of speech" and "hyperboles" to get points across.
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#17 Jan 01 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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For some reason people don't seem to grasp what I'm saying. Let me makes this easier for them.

I am not a WoW fanboy. I have played it, I did like. It is no better or worse than other games I've played. Maybe this is because I'm open minded and enjoy each game for what it has to offer. I don't take sides in your wow vs ffxi war.

I am trying to point out that MMO's follow a couple of styles and it has nothing to do with WoW. These systems were used before and after WoW. WoW is as big as it is, because of marketing and advertising. If FFXI had did the same amount of advertising as WoW, everyone would be saying "What another game with grouping and mob grinding? it's just a FFXI clone"

TheShadowWalker wrote:
No one here is saying the system doesn't work for WoW, but some people just don't want to see it in FFXIV. You really can't claim that WoW doesn't have a distinct feel to it, because of the aforementioned qualities. There are plenty of different ways of going about making an MMO and I'm quite sure SE isn't going to take the WoW clone approach for FFXIV.

Understand that people aren't always literal. Sometimes we use "figures of speech" and "hyperboles" to get points across.


I know people aren't always literal. I'm just tired of people spewing "wow clone" to describe every game out there. To be more correct (in a figure of speach sort of way) it should "mmo clones".

Every game has it's own twists to make it different from others, no mater how small, the twist is there. So the only thing even close to a "clone" is the mechanics of an MMO. It's either grind to level up to do endgame, or it's quests to level up to do endgame. It's not a wow clone just because it uses quest exp to get to end game.
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#18 Jan 01 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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As time goes on, my growing fear is that FFXIV will essentially be a repackaging of FFXI.

The similarities are obvious, and to be expected, since both games have the same design team. It seems to me that SE is basically trying to make an unofficial sequel to FFXI, what with the same PC races and strikingly similar environments (so far I've seen La Theine, Kuftal Tunnel, Tahrongi Canyon, part of Attohwa Chasm, maybe a bit of Lufaise Meadows).

I don't want to replay FFXI. I quit for a reason. I'm looking for a refreshing game experience. I want FFXIV to be uncharted territory.

I guess it depends a lot on how they address the problems with FFXI, such as "the grind", the diminishing viability of the crafting system as the game ages, the difficulty of organizing groups for play, travel, etc.

I mean, it looks beautiful, and I'm still excited. I just want something new.
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#19 Jan 01 2010 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
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For some reason people don't seem to grasp what I'm saying.


But what I said was "CASUAL WoW clone"

The whole problem with how WoW is set up is that it's an easy solo game until endgame. Communities over there suck. There are lots of ways to make a MMORPG in such a way that you can actually game together instead of the solo crap 99% of the time.
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#20 Jan 01 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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My fears are about customization and customer service.

I don't have much to say about customer service.
It doesn't have to be stellar. You don't have to have GMs that give an NPC kitty to somebody with the name of their deceased pet. That's Blizzard brand above and beyond. But dear sweet merciful god, there had better be customer service reps that are higher up on the corporate food chain than friggin' bots.


I know they keep harping on how much of a customization focus there will be.
But it's starting to feel like lip service. While I'm open to the idea that there is more to see, what has been revealed so far with much fanfare is nothing really to write home about. Character customization? Pretty standard. Race selection? Less than average. Armor Customization? Dyes have been done and excelled past. I have a certain degree of hope for how customizable classes will be given this quote Hyanmen dug up:

Quote:
in FFXI, characters with swords, such as paladins and red magicians, could also use magic. In FFXIV, it is not class that will define this, but it is possible to use both swords and magic depending on the character’s growth.


But even then this is ground well tread by the granddaddy MMO Ultima Online over a decade ago. None of this is new, and what slice has been revealed so far is status quo at best. If customization is the leading line in PR campaigns, I expect to be knocked off my socks.



Re: Wow clone
You know, XI has nothing on the epic grindfests and crippling timesinks of it's predecessors.
I daresay, it was one of the first casual games to hit the market.
Only one EXP bar? You don't lose your gear and money from dying? Teleports?
Easy mode! Everquest clone!

Let's keep it all in perspective.
There's more going on with the advent of casual gaming than letting the nitwits in.
Gamers are getting older, we can't devote the same blocks of time to an MMO like we used to. We aren't lesser for this, we have the same intellect, hand-eye coordination, and fortitude that we had as spry teenagers. We just have less time to apply it. For every pants-on-the-head ****** a more accessible game invites, it also invites an experienced oldbie.

Besides, demographics have to do with the type of gameplay as well. PvP games, for instance, attract alot of...let's say, over-zealously competitive spirits? You won't see it too much on a game that religiously brands itself PvE.



Edited, Jan 1st 2010 12:32pm by Zemzelette
#21 Jan 01 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Square Enix catering to the casual gamer. I have nothing against casual gamers but there's a lot of things that World of Warcraft has done that obviously keeps the Casual gamers there and the Hardcore gamers here. Aion also has a lot of the hardcore gamers. If Square Enix allows you to hit max level without any interaction with other players for anything than I will probably get tired of the game and just quit. Just look at how anti-social World of Warcraft is unless you do battlefields and other events. There's also just no community in that game like there is in Final Fantasy XI. I'm not bashing WoW really. Just saying that it has its strength in the casual side of gaming and perhaps a majority of people are casual gamers but that doesn't mean Square Enix should water down the Final Fantasy experience.

Square has always cared more about its gamers over tweaking the game to get more money. They have never cared about the money all these years. If they change their tune now I guess I will have to personally take it up the *** like everyone else or just move on in life and just enjoy playing FPS after a boring day at work.

Player interaction and community are number one. Without those you might as well just make Final Fantasy XI or Final Fantasy XIV an offline game. I play to make friends and meet people. And also to get involved in the storyline as well as lost in the music. Top 3 important things: Player Interaction, Storyline, Music. But since the regular Final Fantasy music composer is back; I'm actually unsure of what third option I chose when signing up for the beta now. I'm sure it was important.
#22 Jan 01 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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That the game will be a WoW clone.
That SE will allow RMT micro transactions.
That the gameplay to a large part will be soloing. Partying was what made FF11 a good game.
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#23 Jan 01 2010 at 11:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Can you imagine the discussion at a Dev brain storming session? Dev 1, "How about we add a quest for players to do this?" Dev 2, "Can't, it's been done in DDO." Dev4, "How about this?" Dev 1, "Nope, Eve has that." Chief Dev, "Well what do players prefer to do in other games?" ALL devs, "level fast as possible to get to huge epic battles at end game." Chief Dev, "Well then lets give them what they want, no point in making a game nobody wants to play."

Man it's got to be hard to find something that has not been done before. Considering there's 100's of mmos released over the years, each adding their own little twist to something to make it their own.

Even quests, how many different style quests can there be? Kill x number mobs. Gather x number items. Talk to NPC a and b.

It's hard to be innovative years after the trails have been blazed.


Psh, simply excuses. There is a ton of innovation to be found if you just looked a bit further than what World of Warcraft has done. I'm not talking about revolutionizing the whole genre, I'm talking about changes that make the game Original.

Why can you only level one class on one character? Why a race X can not level every class available? Those kind of things are so basic and easy to figure out that it makes me disgusted, but no "WoW clone" even tries to break away from the trend.

Simply by changing the combat system would prove to be effective way to cut away from the WoW-style gameplay, but developers won't even try anything new. That system is not the only nor the best one that could be used. It is simply an excuse to say that it would be and that "there will never be anything better than what WoW offers".

FFXIV will have a significantly different combat system from other MMO's- just a proof that there can be an original feature that isn't the one copied from WoW.

The genre is still young. Saying that there is nothing new to be created is simply an ignorant statement.

I'd rather say that it's hard to be innovative when innovation equals Risk, and the companies don't want to take those risks. Implementing features that are proven to be good is safer than implementing actually something new. I'd also say that this is why there are so many WoW clones around. It's risky to not be one.

Quote:
A game only has 2 options to level characters. Quest exp, or grind mobs for exp. Very few games use straight up mob grinding because it's not as popular with the majority of players in NA, EU. Grind is more accepted in the East. Even with "no character level" you still have skill grinds.


At least having no character levels would be a "new" feature, which would be refreshing. I'm not saying to remove grind, I'm saying to make it different so it doesn't feel like grind. Quests can be made more complex, or like XIV does it, you could be able to mix quests and thus make them harder, or have puzzles in them to make them feel a bit more thoughtful than simply kill 5 mobs for bat wings.

Quote:
And fast to top will always be the majority of gamer style. People don't say "I'm only going to level to 30 then run the lvl 30 dungeon from then on." As long as there is a top level, that is what people are going to shoot for. That is why there is minimum content for those levels in most every game. FFXI for example, why is the content for the 30-40 range, other than exp parties? WoW has dungeons that provided a challenge to a group running it at the suggested level. And there is dungoens for every level range from 15-80. But most people skip this in the rush to top level. Lotro has "Book Quests" (the main story line chain) that starts from level 10ish on to level 65. These quests grant exp and as you level through them, more open up.


It's only the playstyle of the majority when the game (WoW and the copies) encourage it. In FFXI, most players did not simply get to the cap as soon as possible- only the most hardcore did. It's a question of design, and WoW and the copies use design that encourages that kind of behaviour.

Why do players skip the content? Because they run through it too fast. If it takes you hour to level, there's no need to do anything but exp. Why make extra content for level 30-40? Because players would have something else to do aside from exping, and the leveling could be made slower because of that. That way the game doesn't simply become about getting to cap (because there's nothing to do 1-79), but you can advance at your own pace and still have many things to do at any given level range. There's no reason why EVERY MMO has to do it the way WoW does it, the "other way" is just as good, if not better in the end. Thus the games being "WoW clones".

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That's not WoW, that's every game on the market. There are many group quests while leveling in WoW, most people skip them and do other quests. It has less to do with the game, and more to do with people perferring to level solo. Look at FFXI now soloing is easier, nobody wants to group until after level 20. A lot more people are also soloing all the way to 75 now with the addtion of campaign, FoV, signet adjustments, exp/mob adjustments.


Yeah, there are a lot of WoW clones around sadly (every game though?). The games Encourage soloing, while discouraging grouping- it is not a case of "I prefer X over Y". It's a choice of design once again. Soloing is easy and fast- why go through the lfping and chance of having a bad group if soloing gets things done just as fast?

Same case for XI: Soloing is so easy to 20 that nobody wants to go through Valkurm. Not to say that grouping is actually slower than soloing at least to 20. No wonder they solo.

And still, while people do campaign and FoV, are you saying that they're not lfp during that time and would not prefer grouping instead? It's not that they prefer solo (most of the time), but they don't have a choice (until an invite comes up). Very few people actually solo completely to 75. It's more based on job (good luck getting to 75 with BLM) and not preferences again. It's kinda like the opposite case of WoW. Soloing is not worth it/slow, so people want to group. Or grouping is not worth it, people want to solo.

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Not true, original does not always equal profit. Original out of the box titles tend to become niche markets. Niche markets don't make as much profit as a global title.


Well, what did I just say about risk. Your other point makes no sense though. Original does not equal niche. What makes you say that?

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And games are made by companies for one reason, money. They dont make a game to please 100 people, they try to make it please 100,000's. Talos from darkfall tries to portray that he designed darkfall out of his own vision of what a game should be. Be damned any profit to a company, he just wanted his vision to become reality for people to enjoy. Well you can see where this will end up in a year or so.


Companies yes, but not the developers behind them. They don't have to be greedy group of people that just do games "for making as much cash as possible". That kind of mindset is disgusting. That way they'll do as little as possible (WoW clone) for as much gain as possible. It's what everyone seems to do these days (Hello EA!), but does that mean it's okay? No.

However, if the devs are bad then the game is bad. Talos is just another example of a failed developer. A good dev has a vision that the players will agree with- a good dev is a dev that makes games that players want to play, after all. And that does not mean a game that the players say they want to play- since they lack imagination, they don't know what they want to play before the developer presents the game to them.

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Whats wrong with 1 class per character? As long as you don't have to go through Cop on every character, no big deal. You still level each class from 1, regardless if its a new character or same character. A plus to this is inventory, no holding gear for 10 different classes.


Are you seriously asking this? What's wrong is that I can't play every class I want with just one character. Not everyone wants to reroll another character to play another class. Some of us want to experience everything on just one character that they are attached to.

You could still reroll a new character even if this kind of system was in place. There's no downsides to having it. Still, WoW didn't do it so New Game X won't do it. Copy copy copy.



Also, Zemzelette:

Quote:
Race selection? Less than average.


Are you so sure about that? Compared to other upcoming MMO's (and existing ones), that seems to be quite an average amount, if not more than that.


Edited, Jan 1st 2010 8:59pm by Hyanmen
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#24 Jan 01 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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They don't have to be greedy group of people that just do games "for making as much cash as possible". That kind of mindset is disgusting. That way they'll do as little as possible (WoW clone) for as much gain as possible. It's what everyone seems to do these days (Hello EA!), but does that mean it's okay? No.


Quote:
Square has always cared more about its gamers over tweaking the game to get more money. They have never cared about the money all these years. If they change their tune now I guess I will have to personally take it up the *** like everyone else or just move on in life and just enjoy playing FPS after a boring day at work.



I'll never understand why people say that. Just because games are about amusement people seem to think the business behind isn't just as cut-throat as any other. If we were talking about an accounting firm, would you be caught dead saying such hippy dippy nonsense?

Course they're out to make a profit. That's why you see FPS done to death, because people keep buying it, that's what developers can get the funding for. Want something new? Vote with your wallets. Stop buying trite, repetitive games. Buy the Okamis, the Psychonauts, the Icos, the Heavy Rains. The shallowness of game design is on our own heads.





re: races
While there might be any number of races from a word only perspective, visuals is a different story. Your outlook have have been true a while ago, against the ilk of LoTRO, Everquest II, and Age of Conan. In this next wave of MMOs contains the most varied character creation options I have thus far seen. Some do this through character customization sliders so in-depth you can make any of the traditional races than then some (Aion). Others allow you to simply create your own race through variety of parts and pieces (Startrek Online and Champions Online). Although, some that I would consider to be tough competitors to XIV are still keeping a lid on things, even their fan-speculated races are not the tired trope (SW:TOR).

Not one, but two different MMOs have looked at the situation and devised tounge-in-cheek advertising campigns about it. No Humans! No elves! No Dwarves! We saw that banner for Eternal Earth flashing across our very own Alla not less than a month ago. Now Dofus has jumped on board, with a full page spread in last month's Gamepro. Sick of Playing Humans? Sick of playing Elves?

Yes, frankly.




/edit: my bad. 2010 isn't approaching. It's here. >_<;

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 2:04pm by Zemzelette
#25 Jan 01 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
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I'll never understand why people say that. Just because games are about amusement people seem to think the business behind isn't just as cut-throat as any other. If we were talking about an accounting firm, would you be caught dead saying such hippy dippy nonsense?

Course they're out to make a profit. That's why you see FPS done to death, because people keep buying it, that's what developers can get the funding for. Want something new? Vote with your wallets. Stop buying trite, repetitive games. Buy the Okamis, the Psychonauts, the Icos, the Heavy Rains. The shallowness of game design is on our own heads.


I'd have thought that people get involved in gaming industry because they like playing games and would like to make good games themselves too. Not just because they want to get as rich as possible. They want to make living, sure, but I think it's like being an artist more than anything. Just like making music, movies, tv series, books, and paintings, some artists make games. It's not the best way to make money, but that's not what those guys are after anyway.

Of course the companies want profit first and foremost, but that doesn't mean the people that actually make those games have to be the same way.

Accounting firm is not something that wants to be original or artistic, if I had to take a guess.
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#26 Jan 01 2010 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's not that simple.

The designers can have heart of pure gold and imaginations withour peer, but unless your willing to pull a Braid and sink your own capital into a game, your at the whim of the investor. This is not always the company, somebody in the industry, or someone who even plays games. Investors are the ones who are stubbornly clinging to the tired and repeated. They're the ones who hear the votes of your wallet. Support unique games, and you'll get more unique games. Support another bland FPS, and you'll get another bland FPS.



Edited, Jan 1st 2010 2:00pm by Zemzelette
#27 Jan 01 2010 at 1:20 PM Rating: Default
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It isn't like that. Unique games are risky to make. Bland FPS's aren't. If an unique game was successful, we wouldn't see another unique game- we would see a copy of that unique game that tries to profit from the success of the original.

Either way, the problem is the money. Investors or developers, someone is being greedy and that is hurting the market more than anything.

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#28 Jan 01 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Either way, the problem is the money. Investors or developers, someone is being greedy and that is hurting the market more than anything.

This, we can agree on.
#29 Jan 01 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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My fear is that this game will be like FFXI where everything has to be the original UI.

I like custom UI's I like how you can have a job specific graphical interface. and in FFXI the closest thing to a change was changing .dats and useing windower. I want to see addons to enhance gameplay (not break it).
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#30 Jan 01 2010 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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SE did a lot of boneheaded and/or inexcusable things with FFXI. It did little to build my faith in the company as a developer and manager of an online game.

My biggest fear for FFXIV is that it will be just like FFXI, or they'll address issues only to invent new ones. They did a lot of things really, really right with FFXI, but the things they did wrong they really did wrong.

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 6:31pm by Keitre
#31 Jan 01 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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RobbyFaces wrote:
Man it's got to be hard to find something that has not been done before. Considering there's 100's of mmos released over the years, each adding their own little twist to something to make it their own.

Even quests, how many different style quests can there be? Kill x number mobs. Gather x number items. Talk to NPC a and b.

It's hard to be innovative years after the trails have been blazed.


Yet FFXI's questing system was brilliant and unique.

I didn't get very far in WoW (Way too easy, got bored to quickly, not a fan of the "cartoony" graphics), but from the month I did play it seemed that every quest followed the same formula: Talk to NPC, Gather items/Kill enemies, recieve reward. There was very little storytelling involved. The NPC's just gave a brief reason for the quest, but that was pretty much it. I don't know if this changed later on in the game, since I never got there.

With FFXI however, every quest had a detailed story to tell. I actually did quests in FFXI because I liked them, not because of the reward involved. A prime example is the Star Onion Brigade quests in Windurst. Every quest involved a story, and it didn't just involve the classic "Gather item, recieve reward" formula either. You actually had to gather items for a purpose, to get to the next part of the storyline. Every item gathered had a purpose for example gathering the items for the fake moustache, which was used in the next part of the story.

I think SE did a wonderful job with the quest system in FFXI, and I see no reason why they can't do the same with FFXIV.

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 7:59pm by Tubrudi
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#32 Jan 01 2010 at 10:30 PM Rating: Default
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level downs, xp loss, endless grinding, sitting around 3 hours waiting for a group to be able to...play the game.
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#33 Jan 01 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Bots

Aion makes me scared. There's bots EVERYWHERE. I know people used third-party claim bots, etc. on FFXI but on Aion it's just BLATANT. They're all running around levelling up 24/7 and a lot don't even get banned...

Party play

Playing together in a party should be the most efficient form of advancing in-game, no matter what. Even if solo players have a pretty good alternative. -doesn't necessarily have to be 6 person parties, just not alone-

Races

I'm scared that SE isn't going to add new races. ATM it just looks like FFXI-2 with the same races and I'm POSITIVE that some people who hated FFXI are going to get turned off by this and not bother. Plus, even FFXI fans don't want a FFXI-2 imo

Edited, Jan 1st 2010 11:45pm by Poubelle
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#34 Jan 01 2010 at 11:32 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not worried about anything. Square will do what Square does. I don't expect anything from this game, except for a chance to have fun with friends that are hundreds or thousands of miles away for the time being.
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#35 Jan 01 2010 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Poubelle wrote:
Races

I'm scared that SE isn't going to add new races. ATM it just looks like FFXI-2 with the same races and I'm POSITIVE that some people who hated FFXI are going to get turned off by this and not bother. Plus, even FFXI fans don't want a FFXI-2 imo


I am hoping they leave the races as they are. I see nothing wrong with FFXIV being FFXI-2, and I know a lot of people that feel the same. Each to their own I guess :p
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#36 Jan 01 2010 at 11:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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My only legit fear, is that I won't find the game fun.
#37 Jan 02 2010 at 1:02 AM Rating: Decent
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mix of..

1. i won't have the time to play it (lolz though.. i'll undoubtedly sacrifice other parts of my life for it)

2. that the beta will come out while i'm still in japan on a laptop and end up not being able to play it due to the laptop not having the power too... (hopefully not an issue.. i can play CoD4 on it with good enough FPS... WoW too... so hopefully it should be fine)

3. that they'll have over simplified it all... i loved the whole "different directions, different moons, different times of the day etc.. all affecting how stuff works (or at least theorised that it did.. ive no idea if it all was fully proved in the end...)

4. to kinda quote everyone else.. 'WoW clone'.. i really don't want that.. ive seen to many games out there that are WoW clones and though i do love WoW itself.. it offers to much variety in play styles imo.
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#38 Jan 02 2010 at 6:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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i hope to god they dont have another BS playonline-style program that you have to install in order to access and play the game. the whole **** thing was annoying; after about 42 separate login screens you could finally access the game, whereupon you logged in again and selected a character to finally play.
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#39 Jan 02 2010 at 7:45 AM Rating: Default
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An interesting psychological phenomenon called "cognitive dissonance reduction", btw. "It sucks, I hate it, but I am doing this sh*t => It must be the best thing I ever had, so I better be mightily proud of it."

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance


That article actually seems to more aptly discuss the notion of overjustification to me. Customarily in my field cognitive dissonance refers more exclusively to the notion of perceptions being shown to be inconsistent with reality. They're related concepts, but I tend to agree with the controversy section that reward salience had more to do with the results in the studies cited than cognitive dissonance.

Basically I mean that it's "enjoyable" (even if it's boring) up until it becomes apparent that the only reason you're doing it is for the reward. At that point you no longer do it because it's enjoyable-- you do it if you deem the reward to be sufficiently motivating. In games, a recipe for disaster to be sure.

Anyway, glad you brought that up.
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#40 Jan 02 2010 at 8:39 AM Rating: Default
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That article actually seems to more aptly discuss the notion of overjustification to me.


Well... no?

Quote:
Customarily in my field cognitive dissonance refers more exclusively to the notion of perceptions being shown to be inconsistent with reality.


So what is "your field" then? Marketing, perhaps?

Quote:
Basically I mean that it's "enjoyable" (even if it's boring) up until it becomes apparent that the only reason you're doing it is for the reward. At that point you no longer do it because it's enjoyable-- you do it if you deem the reward to be sufficiently motivating.


That's the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_motivation#Intrinsic_motivation

Back to the Auditorium ^.^/
#41 Jan 02 2010 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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I agree with most of the above posts. It's a different world than it was in 2002. A lot of things that people came to accept in FFXI would crush the game into nothingness today. Here are some of my worries:

1. POL-like login system that takes 2 minutes and 5 screens to pass before you're in game. I'm not sure but Square-Enix might just have login through your SE account which would solve this.

2. Nine hour install times. Yeah that's how long it took me back in 2002. If that happened today forget about it the game is done.

3. Bots. Item selling sites have become more sophisticated so we'll definitely be seeing a lot of bots. The question is what SE will do about it. If you let them get out of control before doing something (Aion) your game is in trouble.

4. Management of gilsellers. No free-roaming NMs that drop necessary items please. More BoA/BoE items please. SE can't let this get out of control.

5. Combat system. I still don't know what to think because we don't have all the details. Spamming 111111112 111111112 to normal attack before your special is no different than a dumbed down 11112 11112 ability spam in WoW. The game will be panned if that's all it is.

6. Taking too long to address widespread complaints about the game. Every single player in the world wanted a windower. I ripped out my windows keys because of the lack of windower. SE basically said "***** you" to the playerbase when we demanded it be added. I don't even know how many years it took before they added it because it still wasn't available legitimately when I quit.

7. Going back on their promise of a worldwide release and releasing the game to Japan first. I fully expect SE to give JP players a head start, consequences be damned. It's just the way they are.

People give WoW a lot of grief but it's hands down the best MMO on the market. It's in a class of its own and FFXIV cannot compete directly. The main problem people have with WoW is that it's too easy. You consistently find people who feel entitled to run heroic dungeons and raids when they only know how to auto-attack and spam one button. Casuals get everything that hardcores get minus vanity mounts/titles basically. That was one of the reasons I quit a few months ago. There is no feeling of achievement when beating content.

FFXIV can distinguish itself by maintaining a gap between casuals and hardcores at max level. That is, casuals should not be able to faceroll endgame content like they can in WoW. Making the game completely unfun at lower levels to weed out casual players (hey there Dunes parties) is not the way to go.
#42 Jan 02 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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My biggest concern is the playerbase mentality and job stigma from XI will carry over to XIV.

It's safe to assume there's going to be a BLM style class, and if we choose to level it we'll be damned that we're going to be forced to solo until endgame.

If they introduce great katana's I don't want to see the SAM bandwagon all over again. (Yet, I'm almost sure it's going to happen.)

I want to see Great Swords be a main weapon, such wasted potential.

EDIT: I agree about all the hurdles going though POL, though over the years I'm used to it.

Edited, Jan 2nd 2010 10:43am by RaideLeonn
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#43 Jan 02 2010 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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Nine hour install times.


Sweet, sweet memories. I used to live in a Student dorm at that time, and the (central) wireless connection was highly unstable. The only spot with a really good connection was the gym. So I sat there, downloading and updating the whole night long with my notebook, until at 7 o'clock in the morning a bunch of drunken Russian exchange students showed up to do their morning brawl...

But seriously:

1. RMT (no matter whether it's illegal or micro-transactions by the allmighty god of SE).

2. Waiting for stuff without an alternative to do something else you'd like to do.

3. Drop-drama: "Hey, this guy just lotted, but it wasn't his turn! Such an &`%!"

4. Repetition. Having to do the same thing a hundred of times due to stupid droprates or quest requirements.

5. RMT (no matter whether it's illegal or micro-transactions by the allmighty god of SE).
#44 Jan 03 2010 at 12:33 AM Rating: Good
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that the ps3 version is severely lacking
#45 Jan 03 2010 at 1:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh yeah, I forgot. Despite all the threads defending it, I'm extremely worried about how the PS3 will perform. I'll be getting the PC version but I don't want to be an environment like FFXI where PC users have a huge upper hand and a better experience in every way. I want the people who just have a PS3 (and don't necessarily know/want to learn how to build a PC) to be able to play alongside me without ****** framerates, lag and crashes. I'm lookin' at you FFXI-360

Edited, Jan 3rd 2010 2:39am by Poubelle
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#46 Jan 03 2010 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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Well... no?


I beg to differ?

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So what is "your field" then? Marketing, perhaps?


Educational psychology. I've taken more than a couple classes on the subject.

Quote:
That's the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_motivation#Intrinsic_motivation


Well, yes, that's exactly what overjustification deals with. Which was never to say that overjustification was the correct label for what you were talking about in the first place-- just that the wiki seems to not describe cognitive dissonance as much as overjustification.

I only read that first wiki because the explanation that you offered from it was so inconsistent with what I've read in multiple texts. I don't know what your background is with the subject, but don't place too much stake in Professor Wiki. The introduction starts off well enough, but starts to taper into less related concepts, and the studies they review don't support the presented cognitive dissonance theory as compared to overjustification-- a more parsimonious and generally accepted explanation.

Basically where you said:

Quote:
It sucks, I hate it, but I am doing this sh*t => It must be the best thing I ever had, so I better be mightily proud of it.


It might be more accurate to say that:

No one is trying to make me do this, but I'm doing it => so I must be enjoying it even if it seems like it sucks.

If you're familiar with self-determination theory, then it's more of gradual shift from intrinsic motivation through the various stages of extrinsic motivation as the behavior becomes increasingly less autonomous and more dependent on external motivators. People often initiate these behaviors when they are intrinsically motivating, and then as their competence begins to develop and the behavior becomes inherently less intrinsically motivated, they unknowingly become more extrinsically motivated. What once was fun, now sucks, but to the mind, it's something that you're doing because you remember it to be fun. That is, up until you feel that you're not doing it because it's fun, or rewarding, but just to get the carrot on the stick.

Or maybe you're talking about something different.
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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Jan 03 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Default
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There are only 3 things that can ruin a MMO.

1. Random drops.
2. Elitist players optimizing the best combinations.
3. Content designed to be cool but not for functionality.

Too bad FFXI overflowed with all of them.
#48 Jan 03 2010 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
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There are only 3 things that can ruin a MMO.


You're not very experienced about MMO's if you think only those things can ruin it.
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#49 Jan 03 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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I know my fear may be a bit trivial.

I'm a little worried about those icons they have at the bottom. I hope they can be selected with the standard keyboard and/or controller and not make it so we have to play with a USB mouse and/or touchpad as well. I hate using the mouse for gaming.
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#50 Jan 03 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ah, I can help you with that one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu3wrXBaRKA&feature=related
Note the stationary mouse cursor. The player was using the keyboard for movement, camera movement, selection of targets and selection of abilities.



Edited, Jan 3rd 2010 2:07pm by Zemzelette
#51 Jan 03 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
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There are only 3 things that can ruin a MMO.

1. Random drops.
2. Elitist players optimizing the best combinations.
3. Content designed to be cool but not for functionality.


i agree with 1 and 3, but 2 is simply a truth of life. Everything in life that involves any form of competition will end up generating different classes of ability and desire. If people want to be 'the best' let them, it's their choice of how to play... if people just want to run around and kill a few bunnies after a hard day of work, then let them. the ability to generate an elite within the MMO world is something i see as a good thing... i don't want to play a game where the 'average joe' can happily compete against me just cos he has the same gear/same level... heck i dont even want him to beable to get the same gear as me (not easily at least) as i want some value in it.. i want to have to spend time to craft it/quest it/kill a rare mob for it.
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