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What are your fears or worries regrading FFXIV?Follow

#102 Jan 08 2010 at 4:32 AM Rating: Good
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By the NA release, SMN was released with just Carby if memory serves. Still my point about SE's failure to understand the SMN class 7 years later holds more water than your theory.


What makes you think that SE doesn't understand the class now? Even if they can't fix the current Summoner, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to perfect it if they had the chance to create a new one from the ground-up.

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3. That there wont be separate servers for North America, Asia etc. Dont want to make broad generalities, but it seemed to me that in Asia they are abit more hardcore about their MMO's. They inevitably morph the games into elitist controlled, min-maxing tedium, and their western counterparts follow their lead. Too much of "this job/ combo only, etc"


And christ, that couldn't be the more opposite. When the NA's got into the game, that kind of thing started. The Japanese are to this day very neutral about everyone else's equipment or achievements, you don't even see them checking each other out in regards to gears they have. They are the casuals, we are the elitist min-maxers that can't play the game for fun. I'd probably pick the Asian server if I had to choose just because those guys, while being quite **** about how you behave in the game, do not care if your main/subjob combination and equipment is perfect or not. If it does the job it's good enough.

Edited, Jan 8th 2010 1:44pm by Hyanmen
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#103 Jan 08 2010 at 5:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:

What makes you think that SE doesn't understand the class now? Even if they can't fix the current Summoner, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to perfect it if they had the chance to create a new one from the ground-up.


Because with all the job updates to SMN, the job still sucks. Those Astral burns are the only good party experience for a SMN. The Favors' are disappointing and below par of what a BRD or COR brings to the table. SMN's are only good for niche endgame stuff because the avatars don't generate hate and they have powerful magical abilities. Otherwise, SMN's are a gimped WHM's with a huge mp pool. That really ****** me off so much you just don't know.

Look at the improvement to DRG over the years. The job went from L.O.L.DRG to the most improved job of FFXI. It's not all because of colibri(piercing) and 2-handed updates either. SE should of over-powered SMN and backed it off a bit if they really gave a **** about the class.

I'm sorry, but the only logical excuse I'd be willing to accept is this. SE's staff has been working on FFXIV(Rapture) for years and all the 2nd string Dev's were the idiots releasing patches for XI. So under that theory, it's possible the veteran Dev's worked out all the kinks for FFXIV instead. I know for a fact that I could fix SMN in FFXI with a single patch. It be broken by some people's standards, but it would turn around the player base's perception of the SMN class. Later on after SMN was accepted again as a respectable asset in most situations(like RDM, BRD, BLM, WHM, etc), I'd tone it back a peg to balance out the class.

Edited, Jan 8th 2010 5:51am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#104 Jan 08 2010 at 6:05 AM Rating: Good
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SE doesn't nerf jobs. That is the explanation.

The summoner's can't even come to a conclusion about how to fix the job themselves, and you think SE could? A job broken from the start, is impossible to get right. A fresh start is the only way to completely fix the job. Remove the broken mechanics, and make use of the same mechanics that make other jobs viable.

You also never answered my question. There is no reason why SE couldn't create a better Summoner from the ground-up, when they don't have to deal with the mistakes they did so many years ago.

You are blinded by the hatred.


Edited, Jan 8th 2010 3:14pm by Hyanmen
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#105 Jan 08 2010 at 6:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Despite fear of being flamed to **** and back I'm going to seriously ask whats wrong with Smn? No it's not rhetorical I haven't played FFXI since its NA release back then EVERYONE wanted a SMN with all the summons. If there was a SMN around who had anything other then Carbuncle people would crowd around to watch. So what the **** happened?
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#106 Jan 08 2010 at 7:21 AM Rating: Decent
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The job didn't get the advantage the other jobs did when the overall playstyle shifted towards a faster approach with the way haste and exp parties work at the high levels. Other jobs became faster, but SMN couldn't really take advantage of it like the other jobs do, so it got left behind.

SE couldn't see the change years ago when the job was implemented, so they didn't really create any way for them to add such a method for SMN if it was necessary. So now they're in a dead-end. Either the job stays gimp, becomes too powerful, or SE has to recreate the whole job (which wouldn't make sense this far into the game, not that it would have made sense at the start either).
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#107 Jan 08 2010 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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I've never really seen anyone complain about SMN in game, just on forums. All my SMN friends got way more action and acceptance than my THF did in all sorts of situations.

But personally I was hoping that the SMN in FFXI would play like the Magician in EQOA, which I played before FFXI came out. In EQOA the Magician got pets for each element as a spell, as you leveled higher the pets would go from elementals to more monstrous/humanoid. Each element also acted as a class. Earth was a tank, Water was a healer, Fire was a melee, and Air was a caster. Once you summoned a pet it just took one big MP sum and the pet would stay with you till its dismissed or killed. The game's BLM equivalent was called Wizard which had powerful spells. Magician also had its own spells which were about 50-60% as powerful as the Wizard's. While a Magician or its pet were quite gimped as single entities, working with your pet made you very able to stand your ground with the other classes. The closest thing to the pet mechanic of EQOA in FFXI was the NPC adventure companions they later introduced, which I really enjoyed playing with but could still use some work (issuing commands, targeting, etc.)

Magicians had pet healing spells they could cast on their pets, making you your own little duo team. Water pet's healing could allow you to nuke like crazy without having to worry much about hate, you heal each other while beating down a mob. While I wasn't a fan of Earth, it helped protect other members from taking hate and made for some good soloing (though in my opinion, all the healing from the Water pet made it much more applicable to solo). Fire allowed you to do some good melee DoT and remain free to cast nukes. Air allowed you to maximize casting damage. While the Air pet's spells weren't very powerful, it spammed them, making a DoT that rivals the Fire pet's.

Of course in EQOA getting hit or walking did not interrupt spell casting, making it a bit more flexible.

While they've said that initially there will be no pet classes in FFXIV, I hope they do eventually come up with something.
#108 Jan 08 2010 at 8:03 AM Rating: Decent
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While they've said that initially there will be no pet classes in FFXIV, I hope they do eventually come up with something.


I don't think there'll be more than one pet class. More than that goes against the whole point of the Armoury system, so I don't think we'll see more than that.
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#109 Jan 08 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think there'll be more than one pet class. More than that goes against the whole point of the Armoury system, so I don't think we'll see more than that.


That's what I was thinking, though they may make it a customizable pet that you can use along with certain existing classes.
#110 Jan 08 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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That's what I was thinking, though they may make it a customizable pet that you can use along with certain existing classes.


Yes, they will probably implement it outside of the whole classes thing, while still being a part of the Armoury system.
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#111 Jan 08 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:
SE doesn't nerf jobs. That is the explanation.

The summoner's can't even come to a conclusion about how to fix the job themselves, and you think SE could? A job broken from the start, is impossible to get right. A fresh start is the only way to completely fix the job. Remove the broken mechanics, and make use of the same mechanics that make other jobs viable.

You also never answered my question. There is no reason why SE couldn't create a better Summoner from the ground-up, when they don't have to deal with the mistakes they did so many years ago.

You are blinded by the hatred.



I don't agree at all. SE nerfs jobs all the time, where have you been Hyanmen? SMN's on a forum might not agree on the approach to fix SMN, but I doubt most believe their suggestions wouldn't improve the situation. You don't need a fresh start to fix the job. SE fixed PLD if you remember. They saw what the problems were so they added Auto refresh, shield mastery, Reprisal, changes to Senitnel, Rampart, and Shield bash. The point is SMN is even easier to fix this late in the game. It's pigeon-holed in a certain role. You either make a better DD mode or a better healer mode.

I'll give you an example of an improved healer role. You've seen a PUP with WHM frame right? Well SMN would work the same way. Take out Garuda to hastega, this time double/triple the effect. Next bring out Carby and deploy him next to the party. Carby heals party himself by the SMN priming /JA to that measure. Seriously, one of the new avatars should take this role instead. I'm thinking of Unicorn or better yet Phoenix. The healing mode avatar would replace a WHM, RDM, or SCH no problem. By replace, I mean fill in so if a SMN wanted to heal as good as a those jobs, they wouldn't be passed up. In some situations, a SMN healer might even be better. For example, mobs that spam nasty AoE enfeebles. You'd have both the SMN and avatar to help remove those effects. Unicorn and Phoenix would remove those effects via AoE buffs too. The MP of the Avatars is taken from their life force, so all you do is have to resummon if they run out of mp. This system would be balanced because SMN's can't rest with avatar out plus when Avatar runs out of MP, you could transfer your MP to them if resummoning was too time consuming at the time.

I have a DD Avatar method planned too, but I'm hoping you see the point of the healing avatar.

You're right, there is no reason SE couldn't create a new SMN class from the ground up in FFXIV. My point remains this though. If they had a clue, they would fix the SMN class in FFXI. Either make it a better DD at ALL(endgame isn't ALL) levels or the healer model. That's why your question is irrelevant though. SMN isn't that far gone that they can't salvage it. Even RDM saw a melee option in the form of Composure and En-spell II's. Nobody saw that coming because RDM is too powerful in some people's eyes. That proved to me anything is possible now.
#112 Jan 08 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Default
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I don't agree at all. SE nerfs jobs all the time, where have you been Hyanmen? SMN's on a forum might not agree on the approach to fix SMN, but I doubt most believe their suggestions wouldn't improve the situation. You don't need a fresh start to fix the job. SE fixed PLD if you remember. They saw what the problems were so they added Auto refresh, shield mastery, Reprisal, changes to Senitnel, Rampart, and Shield bash. The point is SMN is even easier to fix this late in the game. It's pigeon-holed in a certain role. You either make a better DD mode or a better healer mode.


Although you seemingly haven't noticed, the only nerfs that have happened since 2005 have been in regards to a buff getting toned down because the developers failed at programming the spaghetti code properly. Still, the end result was that the job(s) received a significant boost, regardless of the toning down. Aside from that, there have only been buffs as of late.

Paladin is quite irrelevant to the discussion. That job uses the same mechanics as any other job in the game, and it's problems didn't have anything to do with the ones that plague Summoner these days; the slowness. It's much easier and actually possible to fix, because the job mechanics aren't completely different from the mechanics of the game itself, like in the case of Summoner.

The point is that either you make the job a better DD which would make it unbalanced or you made it a better healer which would make it unbalanced. A class that can do everything, while being best or equal to some job in one area, is not balanced. Your solutions do not take into consideration everything that should be taken into consideration when attempting to buff or nerf a job, which is why it's not feasible. SE, unlike you, has to take everything into consideration; they can't just ignore everyone else like you do.

The solution you're proposing is exactly what I'm talking about. Be as good healer as WHM, RDM and SCH (or even better) while being able to buff, enfeeble and DD if needed. The system wouldn't be balanced if SMN would be equal or better while being capable of doing things that the other jobs can't. That would be broken.

They have a clue, but they can't do what they'd want to because the way Summoner works is the problem itself. By making the job the way it is now, they created a dead-end for themselves, and the only way to solve it would be to recreate the job.

RDM uses the same mechanics as the game itself and is within the reach of being able to be "fixed". Summoner is a whole another entity and can not take enough advantage of mechanics like Haste the way other jobs do. Even if SMN's stacked Haste as much as possible, they'd still be a slow job because the mechanics are like that. This is pretty big reason as to why SMN isn't favored by many endgame activities- it just can't keep up the pace. It has the MP recovery rate that rivals even RDM's, lots of buffs that are almost mandatory in parties nowadays (Hastega), but when you have to act fast... it goes downhill from there. And being fast is pretty important in this stage of the game's lifespan.


Edited, Jan 9th 2010 1:04am by Hyanmen
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#113 Jan 08 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Default
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As far as the OP is concerned, I'm afraid of the simplicity of character creation. What they have on the official website kind of scares me. I'm afraid it will be jsut like the FFXI character creation. Yes, there were 8 different hairstyles, but the color was limited, skin color was limited, facial features were limited all by which 'premade character' you chose. The official website doesn't impress me wit the facial features either, there's 1 Galka with 5 facial features. I think they should have released pictures of what the process will actually be like, not just some outcomes.

I also fear a game that is so easy that mediocrity is rewarded just as well as perfection. Just look at WoW, the game is so simple everyone and their 98year old grandmother can do Icecrown Citadel with one hand. This is just a personal preference but I love ridiculously hard games like Ninja Gaiden. Obviously if the game is that hard they will lose player base, but reward me for doing hard quests and keep the casual players happy with some easier content.

One thing I'm not affraid of though is Community. FFXI was my first MMORPG and to this day it stands apart from all the others in terms of my experience with the community.
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#114 Jan 08 2010 at 4:39 PM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:

The point is that either you make the job a better DD which would make it unbalanced or you made it a better healer which would make it unbalanced. A class that can do everything, while being best or equal to some job in one area, is not balanced. Your solutions do not take into consideration everything that should be taken into consideration when attempting to buff or nerf a job, which is why it's not feasible. SE, unlike you, has to take everything into consideration; they can't just ignore everyone else like you do.

The solution you're proposing is exactly what I'm talking about. Be as good healer as WHM, RDM and SCH (or even better) while being able to buff, enfeeble and DD if needed. The system wouldn't be balanced if SMN would be equal or better while being capable of doing things that the other jobs can't. That would be broken.


I've taken everything into consideration if you examine what I proposed. The 2 separate Avatars(1 healer and 1 DD) would work like stances. You could easily replace a WHM if healing was required. If a DD was needed for the group, that would be your role. A lot of jobs have this flexibility. SCH in particular can nuke almost as good as BLM and can heal like a WHM if required. The point is SCH focuses on a single function primary at a time. The only 3 support classes we need is RDM, COR, and BRD. IMO, the Favors were the wrong path for SMN.

SMN can be a powerful healer and DD as long as balanced is observed. The problem is SMN sucks at DD except for endgame stuff and has zero healing abilities that are fast enough to heal a party. So they don't quite fit in anywhere. If you had a SMN with an Avatar in healing mode, you could be an effective healer in a group, not back-up healing slot. If the group calls for more damage dealers and you have SMN, you could whip it out at ALL LEVELS and kick ****. Balance would be observed and SMN's would have a much better chance at being invited to parties/events they usually are last picked. SCH does this no problem. BLU can heal pretty good plus has 2 forms of DD modes. RDM is a very solid DoT fighter and offers a toolbag of tricks.
#115 Jan 08 2010 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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You are proposing to heal as well as a WHM (or even better) while being as good DD as other jobs (BLM, Melee?).

SCH is nowhere near as effective as a healer than WHM is. It might rival RDM but WHM is still in it's own league.

SCH and BLM have it's downsides. They're huge hate magnets, which isn't a good thing. Compared to what SMN's would be with your proposed system, which would be hate free on top of everything, that doesn't sound balanced in the least.

Either we take away the benefits Summoner has over other jobs, or make the job weaker than the rest while being able to do many things at once (which wouldn't fix the job, because jack of all trades aren't popular in that game).
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#116 Jan 08 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:
You are proposing to heal as well as a WHM (or even better) while being as good DD as other jobs (BLM, Melee?).

SCH is nowhere near as effective as a healer than WHM is. It might rival RDM but WHM is still in it's own league.

SCH and BLM have it's downsides. They're huge hate magnets, which isn't a good thing. Compared to what SMN's would be with your proposed system, which would be hate free on top of everything, that doesn't sound balanced in the least.

Either we take away the benefits Summoner has over other jobs, or make the job weaker than the rest while being able to do many things at once (which wouldn't fix the job, because jack of all trades aren't popular in that game).


I've taken all that into consideration. I never implied that these 2 new Avatars wouldn't be balanced to reflect that. For example, if Phoenix is cure bombing too much, she takes hate. If the DD avatar say Ixion does too much damage, he pulls hate and takes damage. If you recall, SE said the 2 new promised avatars are supposed to be unique to the previous avatars. Please don't assume I haven't taken into consideration all factors. If you have a question about balance, ask me and I'll explain it. If Phoenix in healing mode was equal to your average WHM in terms of enmity and the same were true of BLM/SCH for DD mode, would that be acceptable?
#117 Jan 08 2010 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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If your pet cures too much, she takes hate? ...


So, what then? Your pet might die, /resummon go. That's not really a solution of any kind. That's actually a benefit to the Summoner. The pet takes hate, that is lots of damage absorbed. Less hits for the tank... and once the pet dies, the mob goes back to the tank. You're making it even more unbalanced, proposing that.
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#118 Jan 08 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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SE nerfed rng, so at least 1 job got majorly nerfed by SE
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#119 Jan 08 2010 at 6:12 PM Rating: Default
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I'm talking about the era after CoP, where anyone can clearly see that SE started to take a different approach on tweaking jobs. Nerfs result in a very negative feedback from the playerbase, be it better for the game balance or not.. so they rather only buff jobs, but be very careful about the additions so that they don't have to go back and nerf them later.

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#120 Jan 08 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:
If your pet cures too much, she takes hate? ...


So, what then? Your pet might die, /resummon go. That's not really a solution of any kind. That's actually a benefit to the Summoner. The pet takes hate, that is lots of damage absorbed. Less hits for the tank... and once the pet dies, the mob goes back to the tank. You're making it even more unbalanced, proposing that.


With all due respect, do you have any tank experience in FFXI? When dealing with a tank, healer, and DD's, it's typically the DD's that pull hate most often. The only time when mages might pull hate is during a hate reset move that erases all enmity. Or those times when your party is over hunting and no hate is established. PUP with WHM Auto already can do much of what I'm proposing. Besides I have other conditions that balance this update perfectly. The Phoenix avatar would cost a lot of mp upfront to summon and resummon if the avatar dies. The reason this avatar costs so much upfront is because they store MP and use it(a portion) for their own MP pool. It would work on a sliding scale based on your total MAX MP. That way, Taru's wouldn't have any tactical advantage over a Galka. Sure Taru's have more overall MP, but that's always the case. That would be part of the checks and balance system so it couldn't be exploited.

Edited, Jan 8th 2010 6:39pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#121 Jan 08 2010 at 6:31 PM Rating: Default
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Yeah I know, DD's pull hate most often. And you're proposing of being one, and not just an average DD, but on par with other DD's such as BLM. And while healers don't get hate as much, they still do get their asses kicked for a fair share. Unless you're a SMN using this new addition of course.

Anyway, if the avatar dies, you spend mp but do not suffer from weakness, and your avatar would be at full mp again? Get a few Ethers too, for the ultimate game breaking experience.
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#122 Jan 08 2010 at 6:44 PM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:
Yeah I know, DD's pull hate most often. And you're proposing of being one, and not just an average DD, but on par with other DD's such as BLM. And while healers don't get hate as much, they still do get their asses kicked for a fair share. Unless you're a SMN using this new addition of course.

Anyway, if the avatar dies, you spend mp but do not suffer from weakness, and your avatar would be at full mp again? Get a few Ethers too, for the ultimate game breaking experience.


For starters, you realize a PUP BLM Auto can spam nukes until empty, Depop, and call again with full MP. Some PUP's argue that their Auto is better than a BLM's Dot because of this. I haven't done enough testing so I won't comment on which party is correct.

As for my DD avatar Ixion, he's subject to the same MP penalty for stealing hate and dying. Instead of 20mp or w/e to summon, you might pay 200-500mp to resummon. As for Ethers, what sense does that make? All mages can use Ethers now and most of them require a lot of time to pop. A Pro-Ether medicates you too. However, SMN's should have a zerg ability too which could put Ixion in a state of flux dealing out a ton more damage for a very short period. It would only serve to benefit a zerg fight though. Otherwise, it's useless. Astral flow for magic zerg, Ixion for repeated melee spammage with lightning based attacks.
#123 Jan 08 2010 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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@Kachi


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Why would you have to "compensate" someone for a pleasant experience?

*Edit: I assume you can infer from my other responses what I would say to this, but in case you can't, I'll answer cutely that, "Some whores enjoy their work."

I am unable to predict your responses; we seem to adhere to two different schools of logic. The prostitute example is neither funny nor very realistic, but, if applicable, it would once again demonstrate the power of dissonance reduction. Just like the statement:
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I have no interest in "digital ****-dueling."



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One can experience intrinsic enjoyment of the anticipation and excitement of a reward without enjoying the action that will yield the reward.


Definition: An intrinsically motivating action is one that you'll keep doing even if you take away the external reward component. Once you need an external (extrinsic; hint: there is a "ex" in both words, it might actually carry some meaning!) reward to stay motivated, it's no more an intrinsic thing. Funny enough, you defined the OP's example as extrinsically motivated yourself earlier, when you write:
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Sometimes people "enjoy" doing things they don't really enjoy doing because they perceive the rewards to be worthwhile (note that, like in this case, future pride and enjoyment is an extrinsic motivator)

These are well-defined scientific terms; you can't mix up their respective meanings just because it pleases you to do so. Well, technically you can. The point is just: things like this will lower your credibility in the eyes of readers who actually have a deep (and not just broad) understanding of what we are talking about. And I more and more get the impression that Kachi is not one of those.


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As for the definition of cognitive dissonance, in Ed Psych it refers explicitly to the narrower application I described.

No. The definition of CD as "the notion of perceptions being shown to be inconsistent with reality" is simply wrong, and I (needlessly) double-checked that this also applies to Educational Psychology. It's like a horse riding on the rider. It looks funny, but it will get you nowhere. There is not a single source on the whole internet that supports your opinion. And that's meaning something, as the internet is pretty fat on BS.


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You would be far from the first person who did not accept that I was right about something, and my resolve to allow people on the internet be wrong grows e'er stronger by the day.

I believe the first part of that sentence, hands down; and I guess the second pretty much sums up the lesson I just learned. For those who are really interested (and competent) in the matter at hand, the facts and sources quoted should be pretty self-evident anyway.


Remember, Kachi, I didn't start this discussion. But your initial claim:
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That article actually seems to more aptly discuss the notion of overjustification to me. Customarily in my field cognitive dissonance refers more exclusively to the notion of perceptions being shown to be inconsistent with reality. They're related concepts, but I tend to agree with the controversy section that reward salience had more to do with the results in the studies cited than cognitive dissonance.

was, from head to toe, just such a pile of uninformed smart-assing, that I couldn't resist. And up to now, you've done nothing to alleviate that impression.


"A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again."

Alexander Pope (whoever that guy was...)


P.S.: In razor-sharp, undeniable contrast to you, I wholeheartedly admit that I like to digital ****-duel sometimes. I may be an a*hole - but a full-blooded, upright (and perhaps a little hot-headed) guy nonetheless.

Hmm. Funny imagination floating through my head...
A full-blooded, upright a*hole, going to prepare some food... ;)
#124 Jan 09 2010 at 5:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Definition: An intrinsically motivating action is one that you'll keep doing even if you take away the external reward component. Once you need an external (extrinsic; hint: there is a "ex" in both words, it might actually carry some meaning!) reward to stay motivated, it's no more an intrinsic thing. Funny enough, you defined the OP's example as extrinsically motivated yourself earlier, when you write:


Technically, an intrinsically motivated action is autotelic-- something one does for its own sake, out of enjoyment. However, as I've just explained, an extrinsic reward can lead a behavior to be autotelic, depending on whether the extrinsic reward causes a delay of gratification or immediate gratification. The simple presence of an extrinsic reward can create immediate, continuous gratification (and arguably, this applies to most cases of intrinsic motivation, as I'll point out again that the development of competence, a future goal and extrinsic reward, is consistently shown to be an important predictor of intrinsic motivation).

It would seem in this case that your definition is the one that is not spot on. For the record, this is the subject of my dissertation, and I am rather well-read on it.

I have nothing further to say in regards to your accusation that I was smart-assing, that your internet research has not yielded results consistent with my claims, or your propensity for ****-dueling. An earnest discussion of psychological principles is welcome, but I believe that the potential productivity of this discussion has more than run its course. I'm admittedly fickle about when and who I will be a **** to on the internet, and frankly you just don't interest me. If I have been anything but civil to you, it was purely unintentional.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#125 Jan 09 2010 at 5:25 AM Rating: Default
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For starters, you realize a PUP BLM Auto can spam nukes until empty, Depop, and call again with full MP. Some PUP's argue that their Auto is better than a BLM's Dot because of this. I haven't done enough testing so I won't comment on which party is correct.


For starters, you realize you won't just be able to pop out another 'maton once the first one dies, and the 'maton is as weak as a lvl0 worm when it comes to taking hits, unlike avatars with -50% damage taken by default. "Spam nukes" as long as he won't get hate. Same limitations as BLM. Also, its nukes are much weaker and the AI is retarded. It is good, but it is still inferior. You don't want to be inferior.

I am a PUP, so I'm not just talking out of my *** here. And don't even mention the WHM auto.

Not all mages/DD can die and then revive themselves without any kind of weakness penalty, only your Ixion can. And with Ethers, you take away the only penalty of dying if you use them. You won't even lose mp in that case, perfectly balanced (sarcasm). If a WHM could use an Ether to raise a DD, and remove his weakness, then it'd be balanced. Ain't gonna happen soon though.

And with this system in place, you want to make them equal to DRK zerg too? It's getting a bit out of hand now.
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#126 Jan 09 2010 at 6:42 AM Rating: Decent
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I love how this thread totally devovled into a pair of off topic arguments.
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#127 Jan 09 2010 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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You people. So much ******** and the game isn't even out yet. Smiley: tongue
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#128 Jan 09 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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No music in certain zones. Why? Who possibly thought having to use Windower to alt+tab out and open Winamp or VLC because of lack of background noise was a good thing?
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#129 Jan 09 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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My biggest worry is still the lack of a proper level system. I hope they can make their vaguely defined armoury system work, because levels have always been a staple of MMORPGs and JRPGs in general.
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#130 Jan 09 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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They just have trouble explaining the system correctly. Think Ultima Online.
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#131 Jan 11 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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@mezlabor

1 single reason. Yinyang Robe.

That's like, the most important piece of equipment for SMN. Since we get **** for gears from 1 to 60, I would assume that the single must get piece of gear for any SMN would be easy to obtain.

But nooo....

SE had to put that piece of **** Shikigami Weapon in Moon. It spawns invisible, so you can't track it without Wide Scan. Even if you can track it, it runs around with the Flee affect. On top that, you can't claim it unless you aggro it. What they don't tell you is, once you aggro him, you also aggro everyone else in Moon. On top of that, a 21 hour respawn window.

It's like that famous line by Al Pacino in Devil's Advocate. Touch but don't bite, bite but don't taste, taste but don't swallow -_-;

****** SE's never did it right with SMN. Probably one of the main reasons I quit.
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#132 Jan 13 2010 at 1:15 AM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
RedGalka wrote:


I don't really understand why you're assuming this.


Well because SE has hinted there won't be any pet jobs. Beyond that, SE never fixed SMN in FFXI. So it's kinda silly to reintroduce SMN to FFXIV if they couldn't even balance the class in FFXI. I think there's a better chance of seeing the BST or Trainer class.


also he's tryign to get a rise out of Mellowy. We all know Mellowly loves some SMN action.
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#133 Jan 16 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with everyone who is afraid it will be trying to take traits from WoW in an attempt to also take its popularity. For instance, having to do nothing but redundant quests ("Kill 10 bears! Now kill 10 birds! Now kill 10 dinosaurs!"). If quests will be a big part of FFXIV, I'd like to see some interesting, creative quests rather than the expected.

I'm the most concerned about the focus they're making on soloing. I don't want to solo. If I want to play a game alone, then I'll pick up any other Final Fantasy title. I play an online game to meet people and interact with them. The reason that I loved FFXI so much more than WoW is because I made lots of friends and could talk to people - because I had to.

One aspect I'm glad about is being able to switch jobs/classes like in FFXI. In WoW, if you wanted to play a new job/class, you had to make a new character, which you could do for free. That's fine for making characters on different servers or whatever if you want to play with multiple friends, but it means that your avatar has no emotional meaning to you. In FFXI, the race you chose, you were stuck with - so you could sort of tell things about people by the races they played, and it kind of gave the game a bit of an RP element even when the people involved weren't RPers. You felt connected to your character, and I really loved that!
#134 Jan 16 2010 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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My main fear, and I know I harp on this often, is that it's littered with cheats like XI. My playtime has gone from everyday to not logging in most days.. And the big reason for my loss of interest is that they do not care to enforce their own rules.. Why should I spend an absurd amount of time improving my character when they let anything go? No matter how I improve or what I obtain, there will be many things I can't do that cheaters can. Why bother? Well, lately I haven't been.

If I've had my mmo indoctrination with XI, and if I'm fed up with hackers, botters, and gil buyers now.. How is that going to change with XIV? I don't think it will, and that'll create a competitive and moral dilemma: play clean but likely not as well as others, or do I forget about legitimacy and go at whatever I want with a carte blanche attitude?

Either way, I lose. In the former exmaple, I'm experiancing that in XI right now, and have been for a long time. In the latter, I'll feel bad about it, and also experiance a loss of interest.. My idea of a good time isn't exploiting and coming up with ways to cheat, but clearly that's the difference between myself and those who do.. That is for them.. Their morality isn't a hold up for them. This isn't intended to be some 'high horse' exposition on what's going on.. It seems rather black and white to me - the group of people I'm referencing have no qualms about cheating; whether it (directly) affects someone else negatively or not doesn't matter to them. To me this is more statement of fact than opinion, based on what I've seen.

I understand that I'm in the minority here, in being both very competitive yet unwilling to cheat to win.. And that if 1% of the playerbase feels the same way as I do, SE just will not give a sh*t. It seems to me most people either don't care about cheaters (not enough to significantly impact their playtime or their attitude towards the game), or get off on getting over on everyone else.

Going back to the line I bolded in the first paragraph, it almost makes me want to a pursue a career with the company, as I feel a simple injection of some common sense could make all the difference in the world (who doesn't, with them..?). It's not difficult.. You bring attention to points of interest, and (while keeping that common sense..) you address them as best you can.

Edited, Jan 16th 2010 8:07pm by Carrilei
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#135 Jan 18 2010 at 11:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ok, I've seen a lot of replies saying "WoW Clone" is the fear and having no community is the reason.

My fear is similar but not exactly this. My fear is that they'll give players a reason to make too many characters. I think one of my favorite things about 11 over any other MMO was the community. The reason 11 had such a strong community is because so many people played a single character for years instead of 1 character each month. The fact that over my 5 years in 11 I came to know many players both in game and in real life is proof of 11's superior community, and I credit that to seeing those same guys every day when I logged in and knowing who they were because the only thing that changed was their armor. In all the other MMO's I've played I never knew anyone, I may have poartied with the same 5 guys every day but I never knew it because they all went through toons like water. I look forward to having my 1 character world again. I fear MMO's that encourage Schizophrenic behavior.
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#136 Jan 19 2010 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Carrilei wrote:
Either way, I lose. In the former exmaple, I'm experiancing that in XI right now, and have been for a long time. In the latter, I'll feel bad about it, and also experiance a loss of interest.. My idea of a good time isn't exploiting and coming up with ways to cheat, but clearly that's the difference between myself and those who do.. That is for them.. Their morality isn't a hold up for them. This isn't intended to be some 'high horse' exposition on what's going on.. It seems rather black and white to me - the group of people I'm referencing have no qualms about cheating; whether it (directly) affects someone else negatively or not doesn't matter to them. To me this is more statement of fact than opinion, based on what I've seen.

I understand that I'm in the minority here, in being both very competitive yet unwilling to cheat to win.. And that if 1% of the playerbase feels the same way as I do, SE just will not give a sh*t. It seems to me most people either don't care about cheaters (not enough to significantly impact their playtime or their attitude towards the game), or get off on getting over on everyone else.


I agree with you for what it's worth. Although I'm curious what your definition of cheating is in FFXI. Is Windower with plug-ins cheating? Or only certain plug-ins? Obviously botting and POS hacking is cheating, but I'm curious as to how you feel about the Windower advantage.

I would love to play on equal terms in FFXIV. But alas like you, I'm concerned that people will resort to cheating just to have an edge over someone else. I think a lot more people agree with you on this topic than you realize, however these people aren't very vocal. I doubt many of them lurk these forums because this is just a game to them. Most of us "hardcore" types treat the game like a lifestyle.
#137 Jan 19 2010 at 3:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Elmyrsun wrote:
Ok, I've seen a lot of replies saying "WoW Clone" is the fear and having no community is the reason.

My fear is similar but not exactly this. My fear is that they'll give players a reason to make too many characters. I think one of my favorite things about 11 over any other MMO was the community. The reason 11 had such a strong community is because so many people played a single character for years instead of 1 character each month. The fact that over my 5 years in 11 I came to know many players both in game and in real life is proof of 11's superior community, and I credit that to seeing those same guys every day when I logged in and knowing who they were because the only thing that changed was their armor. In all the other MMO's I've played I never knew anyone, I may have poartied with the same 5 guys every day but I never knew it because they all went through toons like water. I look forward to having my 1 character world again. I fear MMO's that encourage Schizophrenic behavior.


I understand where you're coming from here to an extent. Albeit I don't think they should completely discourage alts/mules but they should accept that people do want to have more than one. The extra money per slot I thought to be a little silly. Hopefully they work out a system that makes everyone happy.
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#138 Jan 19 2010 at 10:54 AM Rating: Decent
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And christ, that couldn't be the more opposite. When the NA's got into the game, that kind of thing started. The Japanese are to this day very neutral about everyone else's equipment or achievements, you don't even see them checking each other out in regards to gears they have. They are the casuals, we are the elitist min-maxers that can't play the game for fun. I'd probably pick the Asian server if I had to choose just because those guys, while being quite **** about how you behave in the game, do not care if your main/subjob combination and equipment is perfect or not. If it does the job it's good enough.


While Japanese do not care about equipment, they are equally strict on jobs for parties. They'll sit in town for hours just to get the desired jobs.
#139 Jan 19 2010 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
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My rather den worries, concerns for this game. (It’s just my opinions dun shot me for it)

1. Guildleve
Hopefully do not lacks the story feel, FFXI have some form of story for most of it "do once only" quest. Most of them are different and enjoyable.

2. Sense of achievement.
I play WoW,Aion,Eve,FFXI and Warhammer. Only in FFXI and part of Eve online I had a sense of achievement when I complete a quest or get new equipments. Maybe its relief that it’s finally over but still it feel great. The rest of the game it’s like oh new equipment maybe 2hr of leveling I need to change it or end game item which make me think when the next patch coming out so that I can drop this.

3. Region Relations
Carry over the NA~JPN enmity from FFXI, I started FFXI when it was 1st release on PC, dec2003 IIRC. Japanese then was very friendly and helpfully but at the point when I quitted, it’s all down hill.

4. GM services
I know every player have rights but sometime it ignores another player a lot and GM services don’t response fast enough. An example is when I played Warhammer/Aion, the chat channel is always flooded with people debating WoW was better or complaining some other issue. Imagine blacklisting people till the list is full. Hopefully GM's will come in and ask them to get a room or something.

5. RMT
I’m kind of neutral with this as long as they don’t interfere with my game play. FFXI was design without considering RMT involvement thus the mess. Stopping them totally is impossible but preventing them from interrupting others fun there are ways.
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#140 Jan 19 2010 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
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Two major concerns:

1. SE will continue to fail at recognizing their own mistakes and adjusting in an appropriate way. Example: Utsusemi. They made a spell that was used in a way they never saw coming. By the time they recognized their own mistake, it had become part of the core gameplay. So, instead of nerfing it like they should have, they programed the rest of the game around it, making WAR useless as a tank and PLD a weaker tank that required several buffs to bring it back up to its preeminent tanking role.

2. They haven't learned why their economy in FFXI was such a nerve-wracking chore. Mainly, I am concerned that they will create another frustrating, unrewarding, and time-obliterating crafting system. I saw someone refer to the FFXI crafting system as "deep," but the only single word description I would use would be "painful." I'm not asking for the WoW "Set it and forget it" crafting system, but the crafting system in FFXI made it difficult to create anything of value, and punished the player for even trying to level a craft.
The reason that the accessibility of the crafting system is important to the economy is that it will determine what is available for the average player to purchase, by setting how many of something can reasonably be created via control of the availability of mats and the rate at which players can produce the items. In addition, it would sure be swell if SE let the crafters make more than 3 useful items per profession that actually had more stats than just DEF or DMG.
It is this problem, not the lack of gil itself, that lead to the headaches in FFXI.
#141 Jan 20 2010 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I agree with you for what it's worth. Although I'm curious what your definition of cheating is in FFXI. Is Windower with plug-ins cheating? Or only certain plug-ins? Obviously botting and POS hacking is cheating, but I'm curious as to how you feel about the Windower advantage.

I would love to play on equal terms in FFXIV. But alas like you, I'm concerned that people will resort to cheating just to have an edge over someone else. I think a lot more people agree with you on this topic than you realize, however these people aren't very vocal. I doubt many of them lurk these forums because this is just a game to them. Most of us "hardcore" types treat the game like a lifestyle.

I'll just quote myself from somewhere else to save some time:

Carr wrote:
Much of what windower grants is convenience - such as AutoExec loading your job-specific macros when changing jobs.. However, it ranges from pure convenience to flat-out cheating.. Let's keep going - extended macros, surely the idea behind it is convenience yes? And I'd agree, but compared to someone who has to hit 3 macros to perform one action, you're able to do it faster. Fail on SE's part, but now you're starting to perform better (quicker) than someone not using.

What's next? How about Precognition - a shadow counter that would be just for convenience, if not for the fact that windower's Precognition gets you the information on if a shadow was consumed 2-3 seconds before you'd receive that info normally.. Windower could've chosen not to give such a blatant advantage, but they did. Finally we come to fillmode, allowing you to see through walls. Granted this won't help with most of the things you're doing, but in the instances that it does, I don't know if there's a more blatant, obvious form of cheating.

Of course these are just a few examples, but I think this covers the sliding scale that is "just for convenience - - - - - only there to gain an advantage."


Really, it can also be summed up in the .dat discussion that you were a part of. They can either be used for fun or for a competitive advantage - most reasonable people would consider the latter to be cheating.

If I wasn't clear above, for XI I feel the moral/cheating line is crossed when you go from extended macros to something like Precognition. The interesting thing about XIV is that it's assumed it'll be much more user friendly (nothing like needing to hit 3 macros to change gear for one action)... So with a more user-friendly UI, identifying the cheats from the non cheats should be more obvious.


Edited, Jan 20th 2010 5:15pm by Carrilei
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#142 Jan 20 2010 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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Carrilei wrote:

Really, it can be summed up in the .dat discussion that you were a part of. They can either be used for fun or for a competitive advantage - most reasonable people would consider the latter to be cheating.


I see what you mean. A certain boss fight comes to mind though. When we fight Proto Ultima in Limbus, the boss does an extremely nasty predictable move called Dissapation.(SP) For those that haven't fought him, this move is AoE terror and removes all buffs. Now the Windower advantage comes into play because you can predict when he will do this move and stun it. As a PS2 user for so many years, I was never able to tell the exact percentage of the mob's health by looking at the health bar. With your basic Windower, it shows you the exact percentage allowing you to stun at 79%, 59%, 39%, and 19%. It's a cheat that's akin to someone using a radar detector to avoid getting speeding tickets I suppose. The sad part is even with the Windower cheat, the move sometimes goes off because someone was too early/too late although this happens very rarely. I typically wouldn't call the HP % cheating, but in this case, it most certainly does alter the outcome of the fight.

#143 Jan 21 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
When i think about how the game was described i think about the mmorpg Rohan online. With its stat increasing weapons and repeatable quest depending on your level, it seems comparable. Each class had a custom mount to ride and pets that could be bought. And of course it had crafts and guilds to be in. That sounds like ffxvi. To me that seems like a giant shift from the crab infested beaches and pink jungle bird parties we had if we wont be leveling with exp. My biggest concern is what is that it sounds like there shying away from magic casters. So far we know there will be no pet classes either. I just hope the one mage they have encases all the fun i had on ffx1 with my mages. SE could either make fantastic epic tale, or a "just as good" polishing of other titles.
#144 Jan 21 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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My fears or worries are that SE haven't learned their lesson far as The Reward System,Boring Time Sinks, Unnecessary Penalties and RMT'er implements ruining game play. Even though the statements made are appealing I'll wait til launch day and find out for myself.
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#145 Jan 21 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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Not getting into the beta.
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Just for clarification, I bot, sell gil, buy gil, MPK, party naked through the dunes, power level, play as a Ranger, quit when they nerf it and complain, play as a Beastmaster, quit when then nerf it and complain, make posts for and against RMT, monopolize NMs, create elitist groups, run casinos, steal gil, hack accounts, and stare at you awkwardly with my left eye.
#146 Jan 21 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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Another fear I have is the game's release date being pushed back too far.
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#147 Jan 21 2010 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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With all the hype im having, I'm afraid the game will suck and be a huge let down. >.>
#148 Jan 21 2010 at 10:15 PM Rating: Decent
As long as I can macro everything to my keyboard and never have to use my mouse... I'm fine.

lol ^^

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#149 Jan 22 2010 at 8:31 AM Rating: Default
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Jenovaomega wrote:
Quote:
There are only 3 things that can ruin a MMO.

1. Random drops.
2. Elitist players optimizing the best combinations.
3. Content designed to be cool but not for functionality.


i agree with 1 and 3, but 2 is simply a truth of life. Everything in life that involves any form of competition will end up generating different classes of ability and desire. If people want to be 'the best' let them, it's their choice of how to play... if people just want to run around and kill a few bunnies after a hard day of work, then let them. the ability to generate an elite within the MMO world is something i see as a good thing... i don't want to play a game where the 'average joe' can happily compete against me just cos he has the same gear/same level... heck i dont even want him to beable to get the same gear as me (not easily at least) as i want some value in it.. i want to have to spend time to craft it/quest it/kill a rare mob for it.


I disagree. I believe elitism and competition can go too far and ruin a game. Your logic is skewed as well. You say you do not want others to get items as easily as you and yet you say that the player base will adapt to the path of least resistance, naturally.

No one will be a unique snowflake based solely on what raid they have done or gear they wear. Their personality and how they carry themselves or how they treat others in combination with their achievements will define them to others. Balance is key.


#150 Feb 01 2010 at 7:08 PM Rating: Decent
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my fear is of being /disgusted by a lack of depth, detail and that magic that captured me and others when we played ffxi for the first times- i can look back to my lvl 1 mnk in west ron. like its a childhood memory.

a purpose to the game - not a gear rat race finally got X piece whew now what?
pfft now i need Y piece,, another year slaving away in end game .. no thanks

pting with other ppl - encouraged - not mandatory

no loopholes for noobs to attain <watever the equivalent of a 75 in ffxi would be>

RMT's - solution can I have it ?

whatever the cool kid hangout is, make it more like jeuno and less like wg >.>

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#151 Feb 01 2010 at 10:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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That it'll be FFXI the sequel, ignoring what was actually wrong with XI in favor of just taking a game that "worked" and sprucing it up for Next-Gen.

That they'll entirely jump the other way (unlikely) and throw away what was good about XI in favor of trying as hard as possible to capture WoW's market.

(I do think they can espouse what was good about XI AND make the game very accessible and friendly to a lot of players. Just often times developers confuse "more accessible" with "make it really stupid".)

Rather concerned about customization: They're championing how customizable the characters are but showing things that have been par for the course for a few years now. Granted, I think they could make up for it by keeping a predictable number of variables but pumping the crap out of how many choices we have in each category; 30, 40+ hairstyles, over 20 faces, maybe if each armor set actually had a number of different sections to dye (and a lot of colors therein -- not just "Dye the main section of your armor red, blue, yellow, or purple!".) Mix n' match armor pieces to a greater degree? Whatever.

A bit disappointed about the male/female mithra/galka thing. At the very least there's no good reason I can't be a ******* Balthier man cat.

Zemzelette wrote:
Let's keep it all in perspective.
There's more going on with the advent of casual gaming than letting the nitwits in.
Gamers are getting older, we can't devote the same blocks of time to an MMO like we used to. We aren't lesser for this, we have the same intellect, hand-eye coordination, and fortitude that we had as spry teenagers. We just have less time to apply it. For every pants-on-the-head ****** a more accessible game invites, it also invites an experienced oldbie.


B-B-But casual noob losers! Their brain is scientifically a third the size of mine! I am so smart for getting to max level on an MMORPG! And my genitals are huge! Right? Right!?

YOU ARE SHATTERING ALL MY PRECONCEPTIONS OF THE WORLD
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