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How would you make use of customizable classes?Follow

#1 Jan 02 2010 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
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How would you make use of customizable classes?

Let's assume for a moment the translation of recent interviews are spot-on, and each class will be largely a singular thing. That is to say; There is no such thing as a Paladin class, but you can mix some abilities from the Gladiator and (just guessing) Thaumaturge and achieve something similar. Let's assume there are no limits on what you can mix and match, but mechanically speaking the "jack of all trades master of none" rule applies in some fashion.

What do you think you'd end up doing?
Would you like sticking pretty closely to one singular thing? Would you do your best to recreate series-favorite hybrid jobs like Red mage, Dark knight and Paladin? Or would you want to play around with some obscure combination like an archer that heals or a Lancer with party buffs?
#2 Jan 02 2010 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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I would focus entirely on enfeebling. So i guess i would focus on one single thing.
I guess imagine a RDM without healing or Attack magic but just enfeebling and enhance magic...
I think that would be pretty interesting.
#3 Jan 02 2010 at 8:35 PM Rating: Good
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i'm not sure what I would end up doing for my character yet.
but I'm pretty sure i will end up trying to make my character more soloable and "farmable"

but then even though there could be more combinations of things u can customize to make your character the way you like, and there are limited combinations and ppl will end up making their characters in a certain way to get the best out of their "main" class.

it's just like the main/sub system in FFXI.
there are so many combinations you can go with, but ppl will end up finding out which sub job is more suitable for a certain main job.
for example, WHM.. you will probably end up using SMN or BLM for SUB when you party, while you can sub something like DRG or THF, and most ppl will just opt for something that will make their main job more efficient or something that will benefit their party.
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#4 Jan 02 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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My current plan is to play a Roegadyn Marauder using the biggest axe I can find.

However, if I can find a way to play a Blue Mage FFXI style in this game I'm dropping my current plan to second fiddle.
#5 Jan 02 2010 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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Given the apperant lack of a total skill cap I'll probably stick close at first but end up messing around later.
#6 Jan 02 2010 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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I would do sexual things to the game just for having finally given me the ability to do so.

As for what I would do, I can't say, and that's part of the fun of it for me. Part of it will depend on how well they balance the game (hopefully using a very balanced AP system). If it's very well-balanced and there are many many customization combinations that are similarly effective, then I'm going to do the obvious thing and make a character I like-- probably someone that uses katana, shuriken and magic of some sort.

Depending on how min/maxish it gets and how many gimpy combinations there are, I may strive a little more to make an effective character, though honestly for me the fun in being leet is not in the work of making my character leet, but the strategy and planning that goes into figuring out HOW to be leet. To the extent that player skill is overridden by the importance of your character setup (abilities, equipment, etc.), that's the sort of thing you generally take care of while you're not even playing the game.

If the balance is really bad and there are 100 gimpy combinations to every effective one, I'll probably just come here and whine a lot about all the wasted potential in the game, and then I'll quit.
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#7 Jan 02 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I'll use melee damage dealers that can use restorative and defensive magic but that would depend on the situation, i'll probably just go pure melee damage most of the time if there's good healers and such present.

I don't think this is limited to just being able to transfer magic over from different classes so i'll be mixing abilities and skills often. Having defensive abilities from a Gladiator tied into Pugilist would be a pretty cool damage dealer that can tank their own hate, combinations like this is what i'll aim for but it will depend on the situation. I would like to try out every combination possible with each and every class.

#8 Jan 02 2010 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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It's really gonna come down to what class combinations are feasible when the game is out for me, but if I had my druthers...

...I'd play a paladin-ish defensive healer that uses a lance. I always prefer the spear to the sword in fantasy games (and I REALLY wish one would let me use spear + shield!). DRG/WHM always intrigued me in FFXI; if I can make something comparable work in FFXIV, that's probably what I'll roll with.

Never know though...I played RNG and WAR a lot in FFXI. Might work them in there somehow as well. Really I'm open to almost anything, hehe. I'm excited for the possibilities!
#9 Jan 02 2010 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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As much as unique customizable jobs sound interesting and would be fun to try out, I think the player base will boil every job down to cookie-cutter must-haves for skills, gear, everything. That's what happened in XI over time, it'll probably happen in XIV in time too.
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#10 Jan 02 2010 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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If possible I'd do a D&D 3-ish Assassin type class. Basically a THF with enfeebling/enhancing/illusion magic.

Since that won't be possible, I'll just roll a monk and beat the crap out of things.
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#11 Jan 02 2010 at 9:57 PM Rating: Good
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I've always been a bit enchanted by the concept of a spellsword. Or rather, a melee character that, rather than being strong on their own physical merits, gains melee power through the arcane in some way. However, I also like to put my own spin on things, so I think I'll try out a Lancer (for polearm weapon type) with self buffing spells from wherever I can get them. It's similar in concept to the way RDM melees in FFXI, hopefully I can eke out something a little more effective though.
#12 Jan 02 2010 at 10:00 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah some idiot will come up with optomised cooky cutter settups and alot of the people will follow like sheep, just like in UO, but I never bothered to follow those uber settups becuase it takes all the fun out of playing "YOUR" character. It is your character after all, why not be what you want instead of what some other person tells you is best?
#13 Jan 02 2010 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
As much as unique customizable jobs sound interesting and would be fun to try out, I think the player base will boil every job down to cookie-cutter must-haves for skills, gear, everything. That's what happened in XI over time, it'll probably happen in XIV in time too.


People will always try to find the cookie-cutters, but don't act like there was really much customization in XI. XI didn't allow for much customization at all, and even job/subjob combinations had no concept of balance. Some are clearly better than others.

Ultimately whether or not cookie-cutters take off depends on how effective those cookie-cutters are.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#14 Jan 02 2010 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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I'd like to make a class that's a tank, with heavy buffing, as well. I could fill two roles at once!

::day dreams::
#15 Jan 02 2010 at 10:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I would like to hybrid. I always thought "what if" XI had 2 subjobs active. You might see PLD75/War37/18NIN. Making it a nice tank with shadows and such, just imagine that.
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#16 Jan 02 2010 at 10:38 PM Rating: Decent
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All those ideas sound great. Bit I also think when SE capps out the classes their will be like a merit system for each class. I really liked the merit system they had, it just made your job so much better. I would like to creat a job that will be soloable. I think it wil be great for 2-4 members in the party, for guild's leves. But by the time the game comes out, that all may change.
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#17 Jan 02 2010 at 10:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally I find myself drawn to Archer in this game, but in FFXI I was a RDM so I feel I need to satisfy the mage in me..so I guess until they release information on which magic classes will be in the game I can't really say. I'm so excited to see 1. what the magic classes will look like, and 2. simply, what magic classes we will be able to choose from! Until then I just don't know!
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#18 Jan 02 2010 at 11:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I will both make things go boom (nuker) and make things go be healthy (healer) like at the same time!

/ma "Reraise III"
/ta Fafhogochelonrtraemoth
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Edited, Jan 3rd 2010 5:08am by ChelseaSMN
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#19 Jan 02 2010 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Not to take away from FFXIV, because I really am only waiting for that game, but have you guys tried Champions online? The same type of system is used there, allowing you to freely choose you Hero's case super powers from wide variety of "classes". It allows you to start in one area, but very quickly get to the highest tiers of power sets, but not so high in more than maybe two powers sets. As I have played it so far, and not even hitting the lvl40 cap yet, it really seems that something like this could be incorperated into the weapons experience gets you points into spells and or abilities in one class specialization type of system for FFXIV. Just a thought.
#20 Jan 03 2010 at 4:41 AM Rating: Decent
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I'll recreate the RDM class using the an hybrid setup. If Duelist, Illusionist, Enhancer, or Elementalist classes are in FFXIV, they could all serve as a template for RDM. I think SE will have limits. I remember SE stating Flee will be less effective if you augment it to another class. So I don't expect to be able to make a nuker out of a Gladiator class. It's too early to tell for sure.
#21 Jan 03 2010 at 5:38 AM Rating: Decent
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THF + RNG + COR + RDM

I'd make a pirate!
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#22 Jan 03 2010 at 6:13 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Not to take away from FFXIV, because I really am only waiting for that game, but have you guys tried Champions online? The same type of system is used there, allowing you to freely choose you Hero's case super powers from wide variety of "classes". It allows you to start in one area, but very quickly get to the highest tiers of power sets, but not so high in more than maybe two powers sets. As I have played it so far, and not even hitting the lvl40 cap yet, it really seems that something like this could be incorperated into the weapons experience gets you points into spells and or abilities in one class specialization type of system for FFXIV. Just a thought.


It doesn't/wouldn't surprise me if western MMO companies have surpassed eastern companies when it comes to gameplay, but frankly I don't play them for two major reasons: the aesthetics and the concepts never appeal to me. Either the game is good looking but of a genre that doesn't interest me, or I find the game ugly even though it sounds otherwise pretty good. Usually the latter, as western MMOs definitely trade on graphics for gameplay imo.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#23 Jan 03 2010 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
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I kind of get the feeling we've seen a dumbed down version of XIV's class system through XI's BLU through point requirements on spells. This isn't a bad thing, but anyone with a decent familiarity with the job knows that many spells or ability combos wind up being useless compared to others, and as others have noted, usually leads up to cookie-cutters and all that maximum efficiency blah that's poisoned XI and made it a rather inhospitable game to those lacking time or connections.

Back to XIV, though, and speculating on how all of this would tie with weapons, I can see certain ones teaching certain abilities and/or the weapons themselves offering a greater pool of points you can then apply to diversify your skill sets. It's something that I can see being awesome if done right, but it can also be easily broken in bad ways.

Overall, the trick is probably finding ways to cater to various play styles while rewarding equally. Fundamentally, one should be able to create some superstrong melee that can one-shot lesser mobs while take little to no damage and still making some progress. Conversely, you could have some super-defensive player with the ability to cure that whittles away at a mob that'd eat the other guy alive. In the time it takes dude 2 to kill said mob, dude 1 should've theoretically matched the reward ratio. It does get trickier from here as we introduce more averaged characters or even group play, but realistically, SE needs to try their damnedest to avoid ToAU 2.0 where if you're not an in-job, you're getting 1/4 the "progress" per hour in some scrub group.

As for what I'd do in such a system, the obvious goal would be balancing self-sufficiency with meaningful progress. Over time, I'd probably decently invest in "everything" one could hope to achieve on an above average level, but I have no doubts people more dedicated, lucky, or lacking in lives would pull ahead of my physical efforts, maybe not so much the tactical. I suppose part of me is hoping actual thought goes into some activities, too, as a lot of MMOs just fall into the trap of bigger numbers equating to better results, sometimes implementing soft caps or diminishing returns to try and stave of the powergaming. Unfortunately, player intelligence isn't something you can pull off a skill sheet, so players have to settle for the next best thing and go off your actual statistics.
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#24 Jan 03 2010 at 7:08 AM Rating: Good
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well i was a ranger in FFXI back when i played and it really is the thing i loved most.. i'm the type who picks something and then goes all out in it, caring very little about anything that isnt important to the main thing.. so i was a Ranger with woodworking, alchemy and smithing and as i cared most about damage rather than survivability, sub war or sam.

anywhoo.. for FFXIV.. probably going Archer main again.. i love being a ranged DD (I'm a warlock in WoW too for example).. i'm almost definitely being a mithra again. one of the things i loved most about being a ranger was all the status bolts, but if they don't include them this time i'll probably want to steal some debuffing abilities, i loved being able to bring more than just damage to a party but always being offensive. though maybe the odd party buff could be useful.

you'll hate me for saying it but i'm a lover of the 'cookie cutter' specs.. though i prefer to call them the optimum specs. one thing i wont do though is let others decide on what's best for me. theorycrafting is fun (yep i'm crazy) so i'm happy to spend hours after/before playing figuring out all the best stats/class/gear combinations and then posting my results (or at least the stuff im happy to share) for others to enjoy and often i'll try to stay up with/(ahead where possible) of the usual theorycrafting names...heck could be fun to try and become one of those if i have the time to do so.. ^^ on the topic of which, i've been nostalging alot recently on FFXI and i came across some of my old theorycrafting.. was fun looking at the data and tables i made to test the effects of mnd and int on sleep bolts for example.. lol
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#25 Jan 03 2010 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I kind of get the feeling we've seen a dumbed down version of XIV's class system through XI's BLU through point requirements on spells. This isn't a bad thing, but anyone with a decent familiarity with the job knows that many spells or ability combos wind up being useless compared to others, and as others have noted, usually leads up to cookie-cutters and all that maximum efficiency blah that's poisoned XI and made it a rather inhospitable game to those lacking time or connections.


Well hopefully we'll have a lot more to work with than a list the size of BLU's spells, and if we can further customize the abilities themselves to include power, costs, and effect shapes, we'll be looking at some great possibilities.

The great thing about an AP system (like with BLU) is that if the developers even keep half an eye on balance issues, they're super easy to fix. Certain sets of abilities too powerful? Make them cost more AP to equip. Too weak? Make them cost less. You often don't even have to alter the function of the ability.

Though I would actually prefer if it weren't too easy to change your ability sets. e.g., BLU at least has to get to a Moogle, but if we can change anywhere in XIV, I'm not a huge fan of that. I like there to be at least a little longterm ramification to what abilities you equip/raise.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#26 Jan 03 2010 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think we'll be able to change our abilities that easily. We might be able to equip our skills in town for all the classes we have and then go out to the field where you can only change classes, not the equipped skills.
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#27 Jan 03 2010 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
Since most people used the term fishing for pulling enemies in FFXI, I'd like to be able to actually use a fishing pole to do so. It would keep me from wasting ammo, although I'd have to contend with the possibility that I would lose my bait in the process.
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#28 Jan 03 2010 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
I don't think we'll be able to change our abilities that easily. We might be able to equip our skills in town for all the classes we have and then go out to the field where you can only change classes, not the equipped skills.


[conjecture]
I'm afraid I do not recall where I saw it, but there was an interview in which SE mentioned they are thinking about the macrobooks in FFXI and how they were used. Obviously this could mean any number of things, but it's possible that while we can switch armour anytime, armour acts much like the macrobooks in FFXI. Each set of armour and weapons has a preassigned set of abilities (set in town or in your "moghouse") that automatically switch all of your abilities to that set. In that way, we can quickly switch what type of character we are, but not what abilities we have already picked out for that type.
[/conjecture]
#29 Jan 03 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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I said:
Quote:
As much as unique customizable jobs sound interesting and would be fun to try out, I think the player base will boil every job down to cookie-cutter must-haves for skills, gear, everything. That's what happened in XI over time, it'll probably happen in XIV in time too.


You said:
Quote:
People will always try to find the cookie-cutters, but don't act like there was really much customization in XI. XI didn't allow for much customization at all, and even job/subjob combinations had no concept of balance.


I wasn't acting like there was much customization in XI. I just meant there's a natural inclination on most player's part to find what works best and then expect everyone to follow suit. It's not a bad thing, but it leaves little room for people who like to experiment.
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#30 Jan 03 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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I'm going to try to recreate Thief and perhaps Dancer. To be specific, just being able to attack fast with daggers, and if I can make my attacks drain HP it'll be that much sweeter.
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#31 Jan 03 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
A beast master type class is what I'll be trying to build.

To be able to solo, and be useful in a group (adding one "extra" fighter to the group).

But I want to fight with the pet, and not worry about pulling aggro.

If able, the idea is to combine FFXI's BST and WoW's BM Hunter together.
Pet holds aggro and tanks, I dish out the DPS and have ways to lose hate if I pull to much.
Tracking to pull, traps/stuns to CC.
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#32 Jan 03 2010 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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Give me Bard (ala FFXI) like abilities and I will be that. Secondary abilities would be combat.

If @ launch we don't have a bard type job I'll most likely be focusing on a character for all out combat.
#33 Jan 03 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
I kind of get the feeling we've seen a dumbed down version of XIV's class system through XI's BLU through point requirements on spells. This isn't a bad thing, but anyone with a decent familiarity with the job knows that many spells or ability combos wind up being useless compared to others, and as others have noted, usually leads up to cookie-cutters and all that maximum efficiency blah that's poisoned XI and made it a rather inhospitable game to those lacking time or connections.


Well hopefully we'll have a lot more to work with than a list the size of BLU's spells, and if we can further customize the abilities themselves to include power, costs, and effect shapes, we'll be looking at some great possibilities.

The great thing about an AP system (like with BLU) is that if the developers even keep half an eye on balance issues, they're super easy to fix. Certain sets of abilities too powerful? Make them cost more AP to equip. Too weak? Make them cost less. You often don't even have to alter the function of the ability.

Though I would actually prefer if it weren't too easy to change your ability sets. e.g., BLU at least has to get to a Moogle, but if we can change anywhere in XIV, I'm not a huge fan of that. I like there to be at least a little longterm ramification to what abilities you equip/raise.


Nothing wrong with being able to change your skill sets anywhere, I think. Trick is to obviously make it so you can't do it so quickly and easily that you're basically multiple classes in one encounter.

Since SE's already mentioned the inability to swap weapons during combat, it's probably safe to assume there's an "in combat" variable that could also prevent ability switches. To get out of this, I guess you could either kill the mob(s) or be able to run like 50 yalms away, effectively out of range to either do anything to it or it do anything to you. They could also take an additional page from BLU's book and keep you from using any ability for a minute after adjusting your skills. Could also add a 5 minute cooldown on job swapping in general, but this one's a bit more prohibitive and would be annoying if you misclick on stuff.

Ultimately, a system like this does favor someone with the most time to level abilities and acquire them. However, I view the acquisition of all as sort of like SE just letting us merit everything in XI: There's physically no way you can apply everything at once and be superman. Some combos are inevitably going to be more effective, yes, but the heavy-handed "You can't do that!" style of limiting character progression gets old after a while.

Besides, there's nothing saying that certain weapons won't up the efficiency of certain abilities, too. Maybe we'll see Dual Wield again, but a possible delay reduction will be better for lighter weapons, or possibly introduce a slight damage penalty to heavier stuff like axes. This would still leave the source of the dual wield ability the best at it and recreate a job system of sorts, but there's also the possibility there may be alternate skillsets from other classes that could offset possible negatives and let you create, say, a Dark Knight whose nuking would rival a RDM's as opposed to what we're familiar with of them in XI (aka "Why bother?!").

I just hope support classes don't get stuck in cycles. After playing Chanter a bit in Aion, just being able to click 3 AoE buffs and forget about having to recast them has been nice. Radius on them is also more than enough to give everyone in the group working on one mob the buffs.
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#34 Jan 03 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Despite my worries that it won't be able to survive human nature, I am pretty excited at the thought of some customization.
#35 Jan 03 2010 at 4:40 PM Rating: Good
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I changed my mind, I'm going to combine a Cook and Black Mage to make...a Bacon Mage.
#36 Jan 03 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
[conjecture]
I'm afraid I do not recall where I saw it, but there was an interview in which SE mentioned they are thinking about the macrobooks in FFXI and how they were used. Obviously this could mean any number of things, but it's possible that while we can switch armour anytime, armour acts much like the macrobooks in FFXI. Each set of armour and weapons has a preassigned set of abilities (set in town or in your "moghouse") that automatically switch all of your abilities to that set. In that way, we can quickly switch what type of character we are, but not what abilities we have already picked out for that type.
[/conjecture]


This was the same thought that I had, and I think it's both likely and, while maybe not ideal, a fairly solid way to go about it.

Quote:
I wasn't acting like there was much customization in XI. I just meant there's a natural inclination on most player's part to find what works best and then expect everyone to follow suit. It's not a bad thing, but it leaves little room for people who like to experiment.


Ah, sorry then. My point was that in a game like XI, even though there's some decent elbow space for theoretical customization, it's not like there was really even any effort to balance out the subjobs. At no point did SE ever think, "Oh, 85% of the subjobs are by far less useful to class X than the others, maybe we should offer more incentive to sub them." And when the balances aren't so similar that people have to argue heatedly about them in the message boards for what amounts to differences that can only be detected by parser, yes, that tends to fuel the min/maxers who can rather easily say that "X is the best," rather than "A-Z are all very close."

As for it being human nature, that's only partially true. The people you're describing are not "everyone" and whether or not they become that kind of person in the first place can depend heavily on the climate of the game. Basically they tend to be something like this:

1. A competitive person. They want to be the best, rather than be the best they can.
2. Generally are not satisfied with the response that their min/maxing has yielded in the way of recognition; either they are not as good as they feel they should be, or people aren't as impressed by their accomplishments as they feel they should be.
3. Because their competitive playstyle has not impressed others sufficiently, they seek that recognition as a skilled and knowledgeable player by "helping" people to understand how good of a player they really are.

These are just the main offenders. There are other people who contribute to the problem, like those who blame their own shortcomings on others, those who are afraid of being the worst (so they join in putting down those who deviate), and those who are genuinely just trying to figure out what's best for their own intellectual pursuit. But they can all feed that competitive person who craves recognition described above.

Quote:
Nothing wrong with being able to change your skill sets anywhere, I think. Trick is to obviously make it so you can't do it so quickly and easily that you're basically multiple classes in one encounter.


I don't know. I can see both sides of it, but personally I favor that being limited because the more easily you can change, the more you're expected to change away from what you wanted to be into what's most effective. Not unlike wanting to come to an event as a DRG but being pressured to come as a BRD because that's what's needed. Of course it's great when you can just change because you wanted to.

And then I also think there's something to be said for working hard to develop one or two configurations that you can change slowly as your plans change, but not being allowed to instantly change. e.g., deciding I want to make my BRD more like a DRG, and slowly picking up the abilities and skills needed to do so. A gradual transformation rather than an instant one.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#37 Jan 03 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's an element of suspension of disbelief, too. One thing that kinda irked me about XI was playing, say, BLM pretty much invalidated anything I had acquire from WAR. In real life, just because I pick up a baseball bat doesn't mean I don't know how to swing a hockey stick anymore. I think people look at the "roles" of classes more like finite existences as opposed to the abilities of said classes being more of a tool to help achieve their end goal.

If we were to break down what we know of XI into "skills" you could set for XIV, let's look at a BLM example. Say, straight out, BLMs would get an ability to up nuke damage. Cool. In turn, RDMs would also have a Fast Cast, letting you do what Fast Cast does. SCHs would then have some MP efficiency element, making various spells cheaper. If you wanted to be the best of the best BLM, you'd want that damage boost, the FC, and cheaper spells. You'll be spending time in all of those jobs to acquire them and potentially improve their efficiency. Conversely, the RDM may be more interested in something that ups their swordsmanship in place of the nuke damage, and so on and so forth. If you want to vastly simplify this, then they'd all be stances like Hasso/Seigan, Solace/Mistery, etc..

Only "problem" with this system, and not unlike leveling subjobs, is people might find themselves having to level something they dislike in order to get whatever level of functionality. Though, it could also be argued that this "forced" leveling will also improve the individual's familiarity with the various classes and to later help them judge good combinations for themselves and party members for any particular encounter. Tactically speaking, you'll want everyone doing the best they can in any situation to guarantee a victory. We all know XI was somewhat harsh in terms of failure with XP loss, gil expenses through tools/meds/food, and claim loss/time outs.

If that theoretical DRG with BRD leveled doesn't want to be playing BRD, then ultimately his choice is to tell that group to **** off if they insist. Though, that risks loss of social standing depending on the complexity of relationships involved. As is, I hated main healing on RDM. I didn't do it. I merited on other stuff and my LS had my SCH or WHM at their disposal if they really wanted cures. Life went on, and I'm sure there are RDMs out there that were more than eager to take my place as a pink mage. You'll find plenty who will argue RDM is a better healer than SCH and WHM, but my own experience had taught me otherwise. It's not the RDM that makes that work, it's the rest of your party.
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#38 Jan 04 2010 at 1:25 AM Rating: Good
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Well, I think that problem you're describing is easily circumvented by just not attaching the abilities to "jobs". For example, in FFXIV, I would hope that if I wanted to make my BRD more like a DRG, I wouldn't have to start over as a DRG, or even change to a DRG. I would just acquire the skills that I wanted, however you do so, but to offer some examples:
You learn abilities through questing them.
You learn them through achieving so many xp/AP with the correct equipment equipped.
And then you level them up however you do that, by questing, repetition of use, a point system-- however it's done.

So the ability is never associated with a job you have to level in the first place, and that also prevents you from having to start all over and "forget" everything you had previously learned. These seems very plausible in light of the reiteration that there won't really be classes/jobs.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#39 Jan 04 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Good
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Can't say you can expect that with them talking about stuff like Pugilist, Lancer, or Gladiator, though. Classes are there, they will be the starting points. It's possible they may outright restrict a certain weapon's use until you have X skill in that weapon type, which would mean trudging up from the beginning, albeit hopefully with the rhetorical Game Genie of your other-job experience speeding up the process. Overall, I'm seeing them go the route FF9 did with ability acquisition. It'd be, without a doubt, the best way to get varied gear circulating if you could only learn certain things from certain pieces of equipment which would probably get bound on use to prevent the whole saturation of XI we're dealing with today. "End game" would then be the player focusing on what statistically ups their preferred skill sets best with maybe the odd, rare piece of uber-ability equipment that'd basically require some level of class mastery just to equip.
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#40 Jan 04 2010 at 2:39 AM Rating: Decent
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One translation noted that terms like Gladiator and Pugilist were for the western localization, and that in the Japanese translation, they equate to less descriptive terms like sword-user and fist-user, and the devs have said numerous times that there won't really be "jobs" as we know them. Based on that, I think it's at least a decent bet that we won't be having jobs in the sense that they exist in XI.

You may very well be right about a FF9-type system, but I think it will function without jobs rather than with them. i.e., "Vivi" or a Black Mage won't be the only one able to equip a class and learn elemental spells. "Zidane" or a Thief can also equip a staff and learn those spells. They'll still be limited in some way from having access to every ability (at least we'd hope), but the limiting factor isn't the job or the weapon they selected (except for in the obvious case of weaponskill-like abilities). Rather it's a BLU-style AP thing.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#41 Jan 04 2010 at 9:25 PM Rating: Default
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I've always played a healer so it'd be nice to be a full out healer and have some offensive tactics...
#42 Jan 05 2010 at 12:00 AM Rating: Default
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If you want to be a DD wouldn't you devote yourself to being a complete DD? Same goes for healing, tanking, or support. you'd devote all those talents into the highest output possible in their designated categories. That's why we created the sub job standards we had in ffxi :).
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#43 Jan 05 2010 at 1:24 AM Rating: Default
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I was RNG in XI, and Hunter in WoW, the ranged kiting classes come naturally to me. However in XIV, I have a very good LS to begin with so I'm going to go as whatever build we need to accomplish our tasks.

I am hoping the beta will reveal what kind of classes will be most crucial. I feel that RDM/NIN was actually the best FFXI class in terms of being able to play a crucial support job in FFXI, while also being able to land key enfeebles, or being able to tank, and also having great soloing power.

If there is such a class in XIV, I will go that route. Since our LS is small, I must pick a flexible class that is essential to most matchups.
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#44 Jan 05 2010 at 1:37 AM Rating: Decent
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odinpingpong wrote:
I was RNG in XI, and Hunter in WoW, the ranged kiting classes come naturally to me. However in XIV, I have a very good LS to begin with so I'm going to go as whatever build we need to accomplish our tasks.

If there is such a class in XIV, I will go that route. Since our LS is small, I must pick a flexible class that is essential to most matchups.


So your FFXI LS is jumping to FFXIV? I'm jealous, I don't think most of my LS mates will switch until FFXIV is out for awhile.

Oh, and a word of caution. RDM was held back by SE Devs because of how some players could exploit our class. I don't think SE will make that same mistake twice. No Utsusemi and no RDM super class.
#45 Jan 05 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Default
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I am replaying FF VII at the moment, and **** a materia based system would be awesome. Would be hard to balance the game but who really care in PvE.

Would make thing a lot easier to form a party.

Player 1 : my healing materia is high I can use it.
Player 2: Ok I'll use my taunting materia.
Player 3: I want to level up my healing materia, I'll be a backup healer.

and then, this mob we are fighting seem week to Ice everyone who has an Ice materia put it and nuke!

But not just the level of your materia affect its power, tank gear would add +1 to defensive related materia... music instrument would help buffing related materia. So a WAR could use a heal materia but it would be a lot weaker than someone using it with WHM gears...


Having powerfull equipments with limited materia slot, so a melee DD can't use a lot of magic but still can do a lot of damage...

...

#46 Jan 05 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Have you played Crisis Core? The Materia fusion system adds a pretty fun craft-like element, too.

I've advocated a materia-like system for a while now, though something much more fleshed out and intricate than in VII. I'm not holding my breath, but it has a lot of potential to add a lot to the gameplay while getting rid of some reoccurring MMO problems.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#47 Jan 05 2010 at 11:38 AM Rating: Default
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Blue Dragon has a nice system though I doubt it work work with a MMO. Basically you have X amount of ability spots and you mix/match varies abilities you have learned.
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#48 Jan 05 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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I will probably choose Ranger for my main DD and aim for some type of hybrid between PLD for my melee/tank and RDM for my mage type. What I am wondering now is whether or not each class is customizable or if there are some things that will be shared amongst all classes through your character like HP/MP merits. I'm sure they will publicly release some more information for the beta players when it finally kicks off.

Jenovaomega wrote:
one of the things i loved most about being a ranger was all the status bolts, but if they don't include them this time i'll probably want to steal some debuffing abilities, i loved being able to bring more than just damage to a party but always being offensive.

It sounds like you would really enjoy the Corsair class if you ever return to FFXI.
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#49 Jan 05 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Have you played Crisis Core? The Materia fusion system adds a pretty fun craft-like element, too.

I've advocated a materia-like system for a while now, though something much more fleshed out and intricate than in VII. I'm not holding my breath, but it has a lot of potential to add a lot to the gameplay while getting rid of some reoccurring MMO problems.


No, no psp :(
#50 Jan 05 2010 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:
I was RNG in XI, and Hunter in WoW, the ranged kiting classes come naturally to me. However in XIV, I have a very good LS to begin with so I'm going to go as whatever build we need to accomplish our tasks.

If there is such a class in XIV, I will go that route. Since our LS is small, I must pick a flexible class that is essential to most matchups.


So your FFXI LS is jumping to FFXIV? I'm jealous, I don't think most of my LS mates will switch until FFXIV is out for awhile.

Oh, and a word of caution. RDM was held back by SE Devs because of how some players could exploit our class. I don't think SE will make that same mistake twice. No Utsusemi and no RDM super class.


I got very lucky. I made some lifelong friends in FFXI, people who I visited halfway across the globe when I was vacationing, and got invited to weddings. XIV for me, and probably many others, is more than just a game, it's a chance to rejoin them once again.

If SE doesn't create a super class like RDM again, I'm just going to try to pick the next best thing. I loved Ranger, and I played it as best as I could, but no matter what (outside of kiting small NMs or Kirin), I wasn't as useful to our LS as that bard running back and forth spamming songs. That's why I leveled NIN and BLM. The LS was more important than me playing how I wanted, and I was forced to let go of the class I loved playing to do what the LS needed so we didn't have to recruit people we didn't know.

Whatever it is, I'm pretty sure I won't go archer b/c DDs are a dime a dozen. If Archers played an important utility role besides DD, I would be open to go that route.
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www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

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75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
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#51 Jan 05 2010 at 6:53 PM Rating: Default
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odinpingpong wrote:

I got very lucky. I made some lifelong friends in FFXI, people who I visited halfway across the globe when I was vacationing, and got invited to weddings. XIV for me, and probably many others, is more than just a game, it's a chance to rejoin them once again.

If SE doesn't create a super class like RDM again, I'm just going to try to pick the next best thing. I loved Ranger, and I played it as best as I could, but no matter what (outside of kiting small NMs or Kirin), I wasn't as useful to our LS as that bard running back and forth spamming songs. That's why I leveled NIN and BLM. The LS was more important than me playing how I wanted, and I was forced to let go of the class I loved playing to do what the LS needed so we didn't have to recruit people we didn't know.

Whatever it is, I'm pretty sure I won't go archer b/c DDs are a dime a dozen. If Archers played an important utility role besides DD, I would be open to go that route.


I completely understand what you mean. I almost never get to play my DD jobs because I'm usually needed on RDM or COR as support. I like to hope that Archer isn't a "dime a dozen" DD class in FFXIV though. I wouldn't mind playing it this time. I agree though, Archer needs more than an ability like Shadowbind to really become as useful as other classes.
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