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Theory on how the enmity and tanking system will work.Follow

#1 Jan 03 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Most people know how the enmity system is calculated for FFXI. While it was advanced for its time, I like to see a different system used for FFXIV. I'll try to keep it simple for those that don't understand how enmity in FFXI worked.

One of the biggest problems in FFXI is how easy it is to overcome the hate cap via damage. This applies to everything including zergs. A PLD could Invincible and spam every ability they have and they won't hold hate. Luckily the crutch of FFXI is Chainspell Stun. My suggestion to overcome this problem to reduce the enmity acquired by damage by half or less. Abilities such as Souleater, Warcry, Boost, etc should always generate more hate than the actual damage. That's how you'll keep the DD's in check. More on this below.

The only tank announced for FFXIV so far is Gladiator. If you're familiar with this class, you'll know Gladiator is basically a PLD/WAR hybrid. The defense of a PLD and offense of a WAR. Gladiator is known to have a Provoke ability from FFV. I'm not sure, but I don't think Gladiator will have MP to cure themselves. In every FF game so far, the closest thing to magic was en-spell like abilities in games like FFT Advance.

The tank aspect looks to be a lot more involved. It appears you can manually block with your shield. This line of reasoning leads me to believe that Gladiator will tank by spamming offensive and defensive abilities while blocking and doing damage with weapons. Abilities like Provoke will pull hate away from any target regardless of built up hate. However, I believe Provoke will be lessened if you augment it by equipping on another class.

Any thoughts how enmity will work in FFXIV? You believe it will be the same system or similar to FFXI?

EDIT:

Gladiator abilities from previous games. If you cross checked classes in FFXI, you'll realize how much SE pulls from the FF universe cannon.

FFXII Revenant Wings
Attack Basic - Deal melee damage to one foe.
Pummel Deal damage to one foe with three successive hits.
Warcry Inflict Disable on all foes in range.
Frenetic Rage Lower user's Stamina to increase Strength.
Iron Will Lower user's Strength to increase Stamina.
Cold Blood Consume HP to deal damage to one foe.
Raid Passive - Increases Strength of group's attacks at the cost of Defense.

FFV
Lure: A provoke ability
Finisher: Attack a mob's weak point for massive damage
Long range: Attack mobs further back for full damage
Bladeblitz: Attack all enemies

FFT Advance
Rush Sweep Blade Damages and knocks back target.
Wild Swing Ogun Blade Damages surrounding units.
Beatdown Shadow Blade Double damage, half Accuracy.
Blitz Sun Blade Half damage, double Accuracy.
Fire Sword Flametongue Fire damage.
Bolt Sword Air Blade Lightning damage.
Ice Sword Ice Brand Ice damage.
Ultima Sword Materia Blade Triple Damage Attack.
Strikeback Wygar Prevents a standard "Fight" attack (from within range of the unit's own weapon) and counters.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2010 5:47pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#2 Jan 03 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Kudos for bringing up a PLD discussion, first and foremost. I, too, hope that the way hate will work in FFXIV will differentiate from FFXI when it comes to tanking. I honestly feel most of the "Gladiator" abilities will work the same as Paladin in FFXI, with more attention and care put in to how the hate will be held. Although having an easier way to hold hate would be awesome, I wouldn't want them to make it too easy, due to the fact that learning how to hold/transfer/get rid of hate was one of my greatest things to learn in any MMO. Being able to manually use your shield is going to be a big plus for starters, yet I've always felt "Provoke" was a little gimped. But that just made me love "Flash" more, lol. With that being said I just feel that Provoke should be a bit stronger Enmity wise, and that's it.

Oh, and please let Enmity show up as an actual stat this time SE! I'm pretty sure I speak for most Paladins when I say knowing how much Enmity we have in general would be a huge help to us in knowing our effectiveness on the field. Great Thread.
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#3 Jan 03 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Attacking a monster from it's weak spot (face) should generate more enmity not because your attack is going to do more damage but because you make the monster angrier than a player attacking from the monsters tough spot (rear). I think that this will be the only change in the enmity system, enmity gained from damage output, healing magic and abilities should remain the same as it should be.
#4 Jan 03 2010 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks for input so far. I wouldn't want tanking to become too easy either, however based on what we know, there will be changes. I'm hoping that holding hate off your teammates with be easier yet the challenging aspect of tanking will be facing off against the mobs themselves. Knowing when to block or use XXX skill to take less damage. I believe the enmity system in FFXI needs a makeover because of how unbalanced hate control is for a lot of things. For example, the only time a melee can unload early on is when they /TA the tank.

By changing the enmity system to reduce enmity acquired via damage done by DD's, it's easier for the DD's to watch their hate. Abilities such as Souleater can be controlled by the DD and you'll be able to back off. So if X DD player is stealing hate, it's probably their own fault. The real test of a tank should be the mobs you're fighting, not fighting off your LS mates.

Edit: I agree, front attacks should generate more hate. On the subject of kiting, I feel that the mob missing you while kiting(running away) would only serve to make them angrier. So a Rouge class could be useful for kiting.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2010 4:36pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#5 Jan 03 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
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I hope the enmity system is somewhat changed, but I don't want it to be any easier to maintain hate. A more complex system would be great with many different factors contributing to the enmity gained, but not easier in any way. The challenging aspect of tanking makes the game funner than just 1 person holding hate while everybody else just unloading on the HNM. With directions being more important, they will probably introduce a more complex enmity system.

The customization of the classes will help a lot also. This time even if you take hate for a few seconds, your not automatically dead like in FFXI. Melee should be able to take a few shots and possibly heal themselves without requiring a gimp subjob in order to do this. With the emphasis being on "classes" instead of direct "jobs", I imagine most people being able to survive hits from a HNM if they happen to take hate.
#6 Jan 03 2010 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think that if apply this to HNM tanking, you're going to have more than one tank there anyway. While I agree that DD's like Lancer should be able to hold their own during most encounters, it's not balanced for them to do so in a HNM setting. Lancers should be a DD class and Gladiators should tank. The whole reason you have a tank is because they take less damage than a DD> If any DD could hold their own, why would you need/want a tank? FFXI meripo anyone? If you need more DD's and less tanks, you simply swap classes. Another thing broken in FFXI is that of damage taken no matter your defense. Because of that programming error, PLD's tend to sub /nin because VIT/DEF has diminishing returns on HNM caliber mobs.

The reason why Gladiator should tank better than some DD that might grab hate is because that is their design. They have a shield to block so instead of losing 900HP, they block thus reflecting the blow and take 50 damage instead. It's silly to have a DD that can hold their own and do more damage than a tank. How is that balanced?
#7 Jan 03 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Good
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All damage should share the same enmity tables, to keep things in line. Gladiators should be able to either:

a) Have a increased threat "stance".
or
b) Have attacks that have increased threat values.

For a), a threat modifier of 250% of damage done should be the base level of identifying enmity. Tanks gear for mitigation/avoidance, not through damage (sans obvious other examples). This would make it so a tank can hold threat while gearing himself correctly, instead of having to equip dps stats to increase his or her threat. This would also make it so if you out gear your tank as a dps by more than 250%, or almost three tiers of gear, then you should be ripping threat off your tank with ease.

For b), attacks with modified threat tables could replace a threat "stance" and the gladiator would instead have certain abilities that would produce various forms of Variable and Constant Enmity values.
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#8 Jan 03 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
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I only took my NIN to 38 in FFXI so I did not have lots of knowledge on tanking and I dont really know much of how the JA and JT will help PLD on tanking.

but since in FFXIV the battle system will change, I believe Enmity will be different as well.
perhaps each job will also have parrying skills like gladiators shielding. and perhaps Parrying an attack could lessen their enmity after a huge hit and then gladiators can come in and shiled the attack for the party member.

just my thought, dont know if it will work or not
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#9 Jan 03 2010 at 6:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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I REALLY hope they have the sense to give mobs a variety of AIs. There's already some sign of this with certain monster types, but I actually think that even among the same kind of monster, individual monsters should randomly have unique "personalities" such that they may not only aggro and link differently, but may also have a different enmity system.

e.g., most rabbits are friendly and nonlinking, but rarely one may be aggressive and/or linking. Mom rabbits link with their baby rabbits or whatever.

And most rabbits attack primarly whoever hit them first (big enmity bonus to that person), but a few of them attack those that cast magic, etc. Basically, monsters are generally alike in regards to their type, but they also have subtle differences, with the occasional wildcard trait thrown in.

I'm not a huge fan of FFXII, but I think they evidenced some potential for this kind of advanced bestiary with the mob AIs they developed and the gambit system. Hopefully they'll be able to apply these unique AIs in FFXIV.
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#10 Jan 03 2010 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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How about looking at this from a different perspective.

What if the AI picked the best target based on what it views as the most ideal target rather than the one that simply is at the top of a hate table. What if the system was more of a guessing game of risk vs reward in determining who will end up being the next target and every class was capable of tanking its in own way but if you get caught off guard you take allot more damage.

Smarter AI would make PVE feel a bit more PVP like in nature. I am not sure if I would like or hate this but at least it would feel really different.
#11 Jan 03 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Good
The enmity system in FFXI was too cryptic and too restrictive. I could go on and on comparing this MMO or that MMO with FFXI, but I'll just say that FFXI's enmity system functioned adequately (not well...adequately) in a game where combat was typically restricted to one group of players fighting one monster at a time unless something went wrong. With FFXIV's combat system to feature groups of players fighting groups of monsters on a more regular basis, the FFXI enmity system doesn't fit.
#12 Jan 03 2010 at 8:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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As was said, since SE is making groups of monsters be a possibility in FFXIV, I'd say it's a safe bet that hate control will be developed a bit differently than in FFXI. I imagine there will be abilities which will essentially be AoE hate-grabs. That was one of the flaws in FFXI, there were not many (if any) viable AoE hate-grab mechanisms for the tanking classes. Although, to be fair, FFXI was mainly designed to be a group of players fighting a single monster (at least in terms of EXP).
#13 Jan 03 2010 at 9:27 PM Rating: Good
EntropyMaker wrote:
As was said, since SE is making groups of monsters be a possibility in FFXIV, I'd say it's a safe bet that hate control will be developed a bit differently than in FFXI. I imagine there will be abilities which will essentially be AoE hate-grabs. That was one of the flaws in FFXI, there were not many (if any) viable AoE hate-grab mechanisms for the tanking classes. Although, to be fair, FFXI was mainly designed to be a group of players fighting a single monster (at least in terms of EXP).


Ya, and despite the absence of any meaningful AoE threat tools for tanks, I'm sure everyone who spent any amount of time playing FFXI has a story involving a new BLM, Valkurm Dunes, and Aeroga.

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#14 Jan 03 2010 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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EntropyMaker wrote:
As was said, since SE is making groups of monsters be a possibility in FFXIV, I'd say it's a safe bet that hate control will be developed a bit differently than in FFXI. I imagine there will be abilities which will essentially be AoE hate-grabs. That was one of the flaws in FFXI, there were not many (if any) viable AoE hate-grab mechanisms for the tanking classes. Although, to be fair, FFXI was mainly designed to be a group of players fighting a single monster (at least in terms of EXP).


I concur that an AoE Provoke is necessary for FFXIV. I'm thinking along the lines of a taunt that simply ****** off the mob. On the subject of FFXI, there were a few tricks to help you gain hate on several mobs at once. However, this technique isn't feasible for all situations. One such method is the BLM Sleepga tactic followed by curing a BLM to be on the hate list. Every action you take including curing yourself would generate more and more hate helping you to build up hate on all targets.

Instead, I like to see Provoke be an AoE taunt that doesn't suffer enmity decay to the extent of FFXI's Provoke. I'd like to see a static -50% enmity reduction if you attack a mob from behind and 25% from the side. That would enforce good positioning and teamwork.

On the topic of AI, I'd very much like to see mobs respond differently. If you attack a weaker mob, they should call or run for help. This mechanic was never used in FFXI. Some NM's like Shen had helpers, but that's not the same thing.
#15 Jan 04 2010 at 12:12 AM Rating: Decent
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i dont like aoe -vokes. too easy.

in ffxi when there were 2+ IT links you could use <stnpc> abilities to grab hate all on you. with ninjitsu, voke, and other abiilities on diff timers, an AOE voke wasn't needed to tank multiple mobs.
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#16 Jan 04 2010 at 1:10 AM Rating: Good
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They can make mobs that are essentially just immune to voke (I think there were mobs that ignored Lure in FFXII, for example), which relates somewhat to what I was saying. Provoke can be less effective, ineffective, or detrimental depending on the mob type or individual mob. There are a lot of possibilities, so an AOE Provoke wouldn't necessarily yield a highly predictable response.
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#17 Jan 04 2010 at 2:06 AM Rating: Excellent
odinpingpong wrote:
i dont like aoe -vokes. too easy.


Not really. Think bigger. The scaling of threat generated on AoE abilities is up to the devs to decide...they can tune it to be as potent or as moderate as they like. At the end of the day, AoE threat options create an enormous potential for diversity in encounter design...far more so than single target threat options alone.

in ffxi when there were 2+ IT links you could use <stnpc> abilities to grab hate all on you. with ninjitsu, voke, and other abiilities on diff timers, an AOE voke wasn't needed to tank multiple mobs.[/quote]

I think you're in for a disappointment. Remember...the threat mechanics you're referring to were never intended to be truly viable for having one tank contain multiple mobs. And by multiple mobs, referencing the gameplay footage we've seen, we're not talking 2-3...we're talking about potentially 10+. You aren't going to be able to work a rotation through that many mobs, and if you could actually work a single target rotation through that many mobs and hold threat through damage and/or healing, it would mean your threat on a single target would be imbalanced in the extreme.

I don't really think it's a good idea to base too many opinions on what you want/don't want in FFXIV based on FFXI. Everything up to this point suggests that they will be very different games.
#18 Jan 04 2010 at 3:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I think you're in for a disappointment. Remember...the threat mechanics you're referring to were never intended to be truly viable for having one tank contain multiple mobs. And by multiple mobs, referencing the gameplay footage we've seen, we're not talking 2-3...we're talking about potentially 10+. You aren't going to be able to work a rotation through that many mobs, and if you could actually work a single target rotation through that many mobs and hold threat through damage and/or healing, it would mean your threat on a single target would be imbalanced in the extreme.


IF SE added any form of Sleepga then ppl will use that and fight 1 mob at a time (unless recast > duration ofc). we still dont know much more then alpha footage and even that was practiced by ppl for few mins , should know more when Beta finally start.

Quote:
I don't really think it's a good idea to base too many opinions on what you want/don't want in FFXIV based on FFXI. Everything up to this point suggests that they will be very different games.


I really dont see anything wrong with basing what we dont know yet on something we practiced and liked , sure FFXI wasn't perfect but also no MMO is , sure you dont want it as FFXI-2 but some including myself dont want it as WOW-2.
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#19 Jan 04 2010 at 3:58 AM Rating: Good
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Falasi wrote:

IF SE added any form of Sleepga then ppl will use that and fight 1 mob at a time (unless recast > duration ofc). we still dont know much more then alpha footage and even that was practiced by ppl for few mins , should know more when Beta finally start.


While I won't pretend to know what exactly SE has up their collective sleeves, I don't feel FFXI mechanics will work. For example, you can see a screen shot of a force field repelling mobs. I'm almost 100% certain that Sleepga won't be very useful in FFXIV. SE wants us to work together to contain hordes of mobs. There isn't much of a threat even in Dynamis and Einherjar if you can just Sleepga everything. I think SE will introduce several ways to handle groups of mobs. Some mobs might be able to be slept, but I don't think it will be the standard method for controlling groups. Let's say Sleep spells only last 30seconds in FFXIV. That's definitely not very reliable if you have 20 mobs at your door. Especially if mobs build up resistance to sleep spells very quickly.

#20 Jan 04 2010 at 5:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I actually liked the way enmity worked in FFXI. But as the above poster said, it's not going to work that well if fighting multiple mobs in a common occurence
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#21 Jan 04 2010 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
Falasi wrote:
Quote:
I think you're in for a disappointment. Remember...the threat mechanics you're referring to were never intended to be truly viable for having one tank contain multiple mobs. And by multiple mobs, referencing the gameplay footage we've seen, we're not talking 2-3...we're talking about potentially 10+. You aren't going to be able to work a rotation through that many mobs, and if you could actually work a single target rotation through that many mobs and hold threat through damage and/or healing, it would mean your threat on a single target would be imbalanced in the extreme.


IF SE added any form of Sleepga then ppl will use that and fight 1 mob at a time (unless recast > duration ofc). we still dont know much more then alpha footage and even that was practiced by ppl for few mins , should know more when Beta finally start.


See, now that, to me, is the antithesis of fun.

There is absolutely no point in developing, testing, and tuning content involving multiple mobs if the standard player practice for dealing with them is to just throw down an AoE CC and pick them off one by one. That's an FFXI mentality based on the common assumption that the tank isn't going to be able to survive and/or hold threat on multiple targets. Believe me, having played both types of games (single target + all else CCd vs. multiple targets with or without additional targets CCd), having multiple mobs active and actually representing a persistent threat is far, far more entertaining.

Frankly, it once again speaks to the unsophisticated bias of a great many FFXI players who can only think in terms of FFXI. If I end up playing FFXIV at retail release, I'm going to be hard pressed to keep my mouth shut when dealing with FFXI converts trying to figure out how to play an MMO that doesn't...you know...suck.

Quote:
Quote:
I don't really think it's a good idea to base too many opinions on what you want/don't want in FFXIV based on FFXI. Everything up to this point suggests that they will be very different games.


I really dont see anything wrong with basing what we dont know yet on something we practiced and liked , sure FFXI wasn't perfect but also no MMO is , sure you dont want it as FFXI-2 but some including myself dont want it as WOW-2.


There's nothing wrong with it, but you have to remember that FFXI is old, it was extremely limited, and it borrowed altogether too many concepts from another MMO that was already winding down (EQ). If you try to apply FFXI combat mechanics to an entirely different dynamic, you're going to wind up with a broken game. Not everything needs to be dumbed down into, "How do we isolate this so we're only fighting one thing at a time?"

Again, think bigger. Think outside the FFXI box. At this point everything we do is speculation, but when it's speculation wrapped around FFXI-2, eyes roll. You can be more imaginative than that. And if you can't, most people are at least hoping SE can.
#22 Jan 04 2010 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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since the ability to switch jobs in the field was added is there really a need for a MAIN tank in FFXIV anymore? I would think that now EVERY one would be a shield more or less until more hate is generated by someone else, thus letting every ones (defensive) skills to rise in a slower manner.

I'm not sure XI was originally designed for PLD's or NIN's to be full time party shields when the game was introduced, but more evolved that way once people found it easier to gain exp and manipulate enmity.

it very well might be that the old party setup of tank, DD, healers is obsolete.

Edited, Jan 4th 2010 12:40pm by Darkpsychosis
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#23 Jan 04 2010 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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Actually Aurelius, while I agree completely that looking at this game from the perspective of FFXI is a terrible idea, FFXI did do the many vs. many concept right a few times. So there is technically a precedent. To my knowledge though, the only examples of this done well were in CoP, Mammets and Moblins.

Darkpsychosis, you cannot change class during battle. We don't know what the limit is yet: timer, in-battle variable, or what. However we do know that you have to change class out of battle.

Edited, Jan 4th 2010 12:46pm by Hulan
#24 Jan 04 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
Darkpsychosis wrote:
since the ability to switch jobs in the field was added is there really a need for a MAIN tank in FFXIV anymore? I would think that now EVERY one would be a shield more or less until more hate is generated by someone else, thus letting every ones (defensive) skills to rise in a slower manner.

I'm not sure XI was originally designed for PLD's or NIN's to be full time party shields when the game was introduced, but more evolved that way once people found it easier to gain exp and manipulate enmity.

it very well might be that the old party setup of tank, DD, healers is obsolete.


The devs have said that they like the traditional tank/DD/healer setup and frankly, so do I. I think what they might be aiming for, however, are less rigid requirements. Believe me, FFXI was intended from the ground up to function with that tank/healer/DD setup. Warriors and PLD were intended as the tank jobs with NIN ending up a strong option due to the players' clever interpretation of game mechanics. Generally speaking, if your job comes built in with a lower level ability that serves the sole purpose of generating significant threat, it's intended as a tank job.

That's not to say that they can't tune content so that the role of the tank can be performed by a "less than ideal" setup, but for more advanced content you need a character with substantially above average mitigation or you simply can't tune mobs to be so threatening as to make it seem like a challenge. It could be that SE is going to give every archetype a major defensive option (ie. the magic barrier we saw in the gameplay footage) that means you could literally form a party of all casters and have one channel a defensive barrier, one heal, and the rest focus on killing things. No matter how you slice it, there has to be some form of control. Whether that control comes from mitigating damage taken by anyone standing within a certain radius (ie. magic barrier) or a beefy character with high survivability soaking the majority of the hits, there would be nothing entertaining about mass chaos and free-for-all combat. One of the things that bothered me when I first started playing WoW was that I was on a new realm with mostly new players and they saw group content as just another extension of free-for-all solo content. (ie. "The healer is here to heal all of us while we each run off and find something to kill.") It's a pretty stupid way to approach a game and I can't see SE seeking to specifically create that sort of dynamic.

The tank/healer/DD structure is what affords the control that allows for the execution of reliable strategy, but SE has a lot of room to play with it and present it in ways we maybe haven't thought about.
#25 Jan 04 2010 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Frankly I don't understand why everyone is hating FFXI. The hate system was very complex and worked will for the game. It made DD's think more about where they tow their hate line instead of just spam ability after ability without concern. ****, even WoW has the same system with the exception that you have to deal with multiple mobs instead of one.

I almost positive FFXIV will have a similar system in that a DD can't just go Ape S**T and not get the mobs attention. That takes all the fun out of it. Also we need to remember that the normal XP mobs were tough compared to other MMO and for a reason, FFXI was designed to have a party of 6 work together to take down a single target.

FFXIV is going back to Final Fantasy's root in that a group of player will take out a group of monster, http://www.time4rpgs.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Final_Fantasy_I_Battle.png , and the mob control will follow suit be it AoE 'vokes, sleepga, barriers, and so on.
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#26 Jan 04 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
dyvidd wrote:
Frankly I don't understand why everyone is hating FFXI. The hate system was very complex and worked will for the game. It made DD's think more about where they tow their hate line instead of just spam ability after ability without concern. ****, even WoW has the same system with the exception that you have to deal with multiple mobs instead of one.


It's not the same system. For starters, there is no enmity decay. At worst, there are encounters that feature enmity resets during transitions. The lack of enmity decay in of itself is what allows for tanking multiple mobs in that you can apply AoE threat abilities that will hold groups of mobs through healing threat while focusing single target threat attacks on primary kill targets. The idea is that in a group consisting of people in roughly equal gear playing at roughly the same skill level, if the start of the fight is properly executed, threat is a non-issue. What most people have found is that trying to ride the threat line is not an entertaining mechanic. Trying to push your particular class to its limits is. The ability to ride the threat line is a measure of skill and it is an extremely useful skill to have because things don't always go as planned. That's how I would like to see the enmity system in FFXIV function; if everything is going according to plan, threat levels are a marginal concern. As it was in FFXI, how you manage a situation gone wrong is where the skill factor tends to shine. When things are going well, skill is measured by how much of your character's coded potential you are actually using.
#27 Jan 04 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Falasi wrote:
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I think you're in for a disappointment. Remember...the threat mechanics you're referring to were never intended to be truly viable for having one tank contain multiple mobs. And by multiple mobs, referencing the gameplay footage we've seen, we're not talking 2-3...we're talking about potentially 10+. You aren't going to be able to work a rotation through that many mobs, and if you could actually work a single target rotation through that many mobs and hold threat through damage and/or healing, it would mean your threat on a single target would be imbalanced in the extreme.


IF SE added any form of Sleepga then ppl will use that and fight 1 mob at a time (unless recast > duration ofc). we still dont know much more then alpha footage and even that was practiced by ppl for few mins , should know more when Beta finally start.


See, now that, to me, is the antithesis of fun.

There is absolutely no point in developing, testing, and tuning content involving multiple mobs if the standard player practice for dealing with them is to just throw down an AoE CC and pick them off one by one. That's an FFXI mentality based on the common assumption that the tank isn't going to be able to survive and/or hold threat on multiple targets. Believe me, having played both types of games (single target + all else CCd vs. multiple targets with or without additional targets CCd), having multiple mobs active and actually representing a persistent threat is far, far more entertaining.

Frankly, it once again speaks to the unsophisticated bias of a great many FFXI players who can only think in terms of FFXI. If I end up playing FFXIV at retail release, I'm going to be hard pressed to keep my mouth shut when dealing with FFXI converts trying to figure out how to play an MMO that doesn't...you know...suck.

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I don't really think it's a good idea to base too many opinions on what you want/don't want in FFXIV based on FFXI. Everything up to this point suggests that they will be very different games.


I really dont see anything wrong with basing what we dont know yet on something we practiced and liked , sure FFXI wasn't perfect but also no MMO is , sure you dont want it as FFXI-2 but some including myself dont want it as WOW-2.


There's nothing wrong with it, but you have to remember that FFXI is old, it was extremely limited, and it borrowed altogether too many concepts from another MMO that was already winding down (EQ). If you try to apply FFXI combat mechanics to an entirely different dynamic, you're going to wind up with a broken game. Not everything needs to be dumbed down into, "How do we isolate this so we're only fighting one thing at a time?"

Again, think bigger. Think outside the FFXI box. At this point everything we do is speculation, but when it's speculation wrapped around FFXI-2, eyes roll. You can be more imaginative than that. And if you can't, most people are at least hoping SE can.


Either way, I don't see where the fun is in having 10+ mobs all hit 1 person who uses AOE voke, and a couple guys cure-bombing the tank. Nothing innovative there. Quite boring actually. I'd prefer skilled coordination of CCs. A lot more single target CCs, and multi-mob management where you have to switch targets in order to win.

The skillcap for the game will be way too low, and I'm afraid I'll get bored too soon if it was anything like WoW raid PVE where 1 guy runs in and gathers a ton of mobs spamming AOE abilities.
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#28 Jan 04 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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I have a new thought about this...

From what SE hinted in previous interviews:

1. PvE with enemies in group
2. better system to keep interest for casual players


I think the AI for different monsters type will not be the same first of all, and also the party set up will change.
If they intend to make casual players (SE mentioned they want to let casual player who only have 30-60mins play time a day to enjoy) to enjoy the game, I would think SE will probably add more survivalability for the other classes other than the tank, which.. will make the enmity system to work differently comparing to FFXI.

and since there will be Players vs group of enemies, I always think we might see something like a Party of gobs in the areas, something like a party vs party situation.
and from looking at the magic barrier in the cutscene, i think it makes my point even stronger. if a party of players fighting multiple targets will happen like in the cutscene, each of the classes will need better survivalability and also stretagies on fighting the group of mobs will be very different.
I doubt we will have one tank tanking hits of all of the mobs while all the other members will die in 3hits if the tank lose hate.

P.S. pardon me if my opinion is not clear, as I'm still on vacation mode and on first day of work in the New Year and still constantly thinking of FFXIV... (checking zam forum and officialy site every 1 hour lol)
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#29 Jan 04 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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odinpingpong wrote:

Either way, I don't see where the fun is in having 10+ mobs all hit 1 person who uses AOE voke, and a couple guys cure-bombing the tank. Nothing innovative there. Quite boring actually. I'd prefer skilled coordination of CCs. A lot more single target CCs, and multi-mob management where you have to switch targets in order to win.

The skillcap for the game will be way too low, and I'm afraid I'll get bored too soon if it was anything like WoW raid PVE where 1 guy runs in and gathers a ton of mobs spamming AOE abilities.


I don't find it fun the way FFXI's Dynamis system works either. Puller grabs a ton of mobs followed by blankets of sleepga II. Most LS's then kill one mob at a time with little or no regard for hate control on each mob. Zerg >> kill >> zerg >> kill= boring after awhile. Most people will agree it's pointless to take more than 36 people in a a zone because it's a waste of resources the way we fight there.

So far FFXIV looks to change all that. Barrier force fields really got my attention. IMO, it's much more fun to have waves of mobs beating on your door than to be silenced with Sleepga for 2min a pop. Because you'd be fighting several mobs at once, it only makes sense to have AoE taunts. Single target taunts worked well in FFXI, but FFXIV isn't the same game or premise for that matter.

As for the skill cap, this is still a JP MMORPG. I'm fairly confident FFXIV will rank higher than WoW in overall challenge. The lack of auto-attack alone in FFXIV is a very drastic change to FFXI. IMO, I feel you'll be able to manually block with your shield or parry your sword. A definition of a good tank could be able to time your defensive measures to take minimal damage, not the enmity part. We don't know for sure, yet, but I think we're close to the mark.
#30 Jan 04 2010 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:

Either way, I don't see where the fun is in having 10+ mobs all hit 1 person who uses AOE voke, and a couple guys cure-bombing the tank. Nothing innovative there. Quite boring actually. I'd prefer skilled coordination of CCs. A lot more single target CCs, and multi-mob management where you have to switch targets in order to win.

The skillcap for the game will be way too low, and I'm afraid I'll get bored too soon if it was anything like WoW raid PVE where 1 guy runs in and gathers a ton of mobs spamming AOE abilities.


I don't find it fun the way FFXI's Dynamis system works either. Puller grabs a ton of mobs followed by blankets of sleepga II. Most LS's then kill one mob at a time with little or no regard for hate control on each mob. Zerg >> kill >> zerg >> kill= boring after awhile. Most people will agree it's pointless to take more than 36 people in a a zone because it's a waste of resources the way we fight there.

So far FFXIV looks to change all that. Barrier force fields really got my attention. IMO, it's much more fun to have waves of mobs beating on your door than to be silenced with Sleepga for 2min a pop. Because you'd be fighting several mobs at once, it only makes sense to have AoE taunts. Single target taunts worked well in FFXI, but FFXIV isn't the same game or premise for that matter.

As for the skill cap, this is still a JP MMORPG. I'm fairly confident FFXIV will rank higher than WoW in overall challenge. The lack of auto-attack alone in FFXIV is a very drastic change to FFXI. IMO, I feel you'll be able to manually block with your shield or parry your sword. A definition of a good tank could be able to time your defensive measures to take minimal damage, not the enmity part. We don't know for sure, yet, but I think we're close to the mark.


Not really talking about Dynamis. More like how BCNM fights are. It would be cool if EXPing were just a constant string of BCNM / ENM style fights. Dynamis is just the worst example b/c it could be up to 64 person 3hr zerg... one of the worst things that happened to FFXI.

Edited, Jan 4th 2010 4:39pm by odinpingpong
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#31 Jan 04 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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odinpingpong wrote:


Not really talking about Dynamis. More like how BCNM fights are. It would be cool if EXPing were just a constant string of BCNM / ENM style fights. Dynamis is just the worst example b/c it could be up to 64 person 3hr zerg... one of the worst things that happened to FFXI.


I used Dynamis as an example because it's the closest analogy to the FFXIV system. The time of the event is not the point. It's the number of mobs you could fight at once which applies to FFXIV. You're talking about AoE vokes being too powerful for BCNM/ENM stuff? I just don't see how that could ever be the case. A tank is supposed to hold hate and it's very difficult in FFXI to hold hate during most events. Limbus, Dynamis, Einherjar, Assault, etc are just a few examples where a tank doesn't hold hate very well. It's because everything a zerg fest and DD's pull it off in every event I just mentioned. So I'm not a fan of the current hate control scheme at all.
#32 Jan 04 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
odinpingpong wrote:
Either way, I don't see where the fun is in having 10+ mobs all hit 1 person who uses AOE voke, and a couple guys cure-bombing the tank. Nothing innovative there. Quite boring actually. I'd prefer skilled coordination of CCs. A lot more single target CCs, and multi-mob management where you have to switch targets in order to win.


Again, think bigger. Your thinking is too narrow. Just because you give tanks AoE threat options doesn't mean every fight is going to be an AoE burn. It creates the potential for a scenario where you're fighting large numbers of weaker mobs where you can just round them all up and burn them all down. Fancy that...an FF MMO where damage spells that end in -ga actually have a useful purpose besides ******* off your party with unnecessary links or farming TW mobs 20 levels below you.

And just because you have those options doesn't mean they're going to be the ideal solution to every encounter. The tank still has to survive the beating, so if you take a cluster of hard hitting mobs and try to apply the AoE burn concept to them, your tank dies fast followed shortly by the rest of the group. In that situation you have to think in terms of appropriate and effective CC.

In my situation, the developers have options to include BOTH kinds of encounters for the sake of variety. In your situation, it's the same crap repeated ad infinitum. Nobody wants another broken, dull game.

Quote:
The skillcap for the game will be way too low, and I'm afraid I'll get bored too soon if it was anything like WoW raid PVE where 1 guy runs in and gathers a ton of mobs spamming AOE abilities.


You haven't raid much (if at all) in WoW then, I take it, because there are situations that work like that and there are plenty where mob behavior and tuning make things a bit more diverse. There's more to an MMO than managing wonky threat mechanics and thumping mobs one at a time. Diversity means having the tools to handle a variety of situations and then the devs taking advantage of what they've given the players and creating content that makes use of all of them. The fewer tools players are given, the fewer the options for diverse content.

Edited, Jan 4th 2010 2:23pm by AureliusSir
#33 Jan 04 2010 at 4:38 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:
Either way, I don't see where the fun is in having 10+ mobs all hit 1 person who uses AOE voke, and a couple guys cure-bombing the tank. Nothing innovative there. Quite boring actually. I'd prefer skilled coordination of CCs. A lot more single target CCs, and multi-mob management where you have to switch targets in order to win.


Again, think bigger. Your thinking is too narrow. Just because you give tanks AoE threat options doesn't mean every fight is going to be an AoE burn. It creates the potential for a scenario where you're fighting large numbers of weaker mobs where you can just round them all up and burn them all down. Fancy that...an FF MMO where damage spells that end in -ga actually have a useful purpose besides ******* off your party with unnecessary links or farming TW mobs 20 levels below you.

And just because you have those options doesn't mean they're going to be the ideal solution to every encounter. The tank still has to survive the beating, so if you take a cluster of hard hitting mobs and try to apply the AoE burn concept to them, your tank dies fast followed shortly by the rest of the group. In that situation you have to think in terms of appropriate and effective CC.

In my situation, the developers have options to include BOTH kinds of encounters for the sake of variety. In your situation, it's the same crap repeated ad infinitum. Nobody wants another broken, dull game.

Quote:
The skillcap for the game will be way too low, and I'm afraid I'll get bored too soon if it was anything like WoW raid PVE where 1 guy runs in and gathers a ton of mobs spamming AOE abilities.


You haven't raid much (if at all) in WoW then, I take it, because there are situations that work like that and there are plenty where mob behavior and tuning make things a bit more diverse. There's more to an MMO than managing wonky threat mechanics and thumping mobs one at a time. Diversity means having the tools to handle a variety of situations and then the devs taking advantage of what they've given the players and creating content that makes use of all of them. The fewer tools players are given, the fewer the options for diverse content.

Edited, Jan 4th 2010 2:23pm by AureliusSir


Really getting tired of you starting every post with "you've got to think bigger" - and then, as you explain the bigger picture to me, you've basically described World of Warcraft.

You are condescending towards FFXI comparisons, citing that FFXIV is not FFXI, without realizing that we must all use comparisons to what we know to describe what we mean, as you yourself often use WoW.

Quote:
In my situation, the developers have options to include BOTH kinds of encounters for the sake of variety. In your situation, it's the same crap repeated ad infinitum. Nobody wants another broken, dull game.


See, when you make strawman arguments like this, it's really hard to have a decent conversation. Nowhere did I propose that there cannot be alternatives. I've only stated my preference, which is that I do not want WoW's low-difficulty - easy mode instance grouping to be the norm for most of my XP session, of which tanks regularly take on 2-3 mobs and getting cure bombed. You've basically argued against me although I essentially agree with you that there needs to be variety.
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#34 Jan 04 2010 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's not to say that they can't tune content so that the role of the tank can be performed by a "less than ideal" setup, but for more advanced content you need a character with substantially above average mitigation or you simply can't tune mobs to be so threatening as to make it seem like a challenge.


I think there's alot of ways to make something threatening and challenging without relying on higher-than-average damage.

Fancy footwork, via spells that are targeted to portions of the field either statically or in a moving pattern, is plenty challenging and the threat is as high as you want the consequences for failure to be. A game all about multi-target play can generate alot of fear in sheer swarming numbers. The Manipulation of players directly is always a fun one, I mean this less like being charmed (although that's a goodie too), and more like certain abilities are supressed or nullified so you have to work around your handicaps.




As for the topic in general,

If you turn everything into -aga, then essentially it's many vs. one just with alot more clutter on your screen.
If you rely on crowd control, then essentially it's many vs. one in quick succession.
If you make everyone capable of taking on an opponent individually, then the fights progress more like one vs. one encounters in general vicinity of other people.

I've never seen a truly many vs. many MMO.


Part of the problem, I think, is that MMOs are all about Losing and Recovering HP. Adding more targets doesn't impact this in a significant way, even at it's most involved crowd-control stage the change is largely a cosmetic one, so the gameplay remains fundamentally unaffected. MMOs need to have a new dynamic introduced, something which is sensitive to the number of opponents on the field.






Edited, Jan 4th 2010 6:29pm by Zemzelette
#35 Jan 04 2010 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Odin: 1st off WoW is not a one tank grab it all and spam heal the tank situation all the time, quite often there are specific mobs you need to cc,some which must be off tanked and some that you need to kite.

Lotro is another game where the tank often will grab a large group of enemies, but again, sometimes you need cc, sometimes the tank can hold it all, etc. etc. etc.

I'm sure I could list other examples but don't really feel that is necessary. Lighten up a bit, there's no need to degrade another game, be it wow, ffxi, eq or whatever just because you don't happen to like it, crap like that is what changes a discussion into a flame war.

odinpingpong wrote:
I'd prefer skilled coordination of CCs. A lot more single target CCs, and multi-mob management where you have to switch targets in order to win.

hate to say it (especially because I personally don't like WoW) but that is exactly what you get in quite a few wow instances, especially the major fights, as well as alot of the instance content in lotro (well the higher level stuff anyway)
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#36 Jan 04 2010 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
odinpingpong wrote:
Really getting tired of you starting every post with "you've got to think bigger"


Well then, think bigger and I won't have to :P

Quote:
- and then, as you explain the bigger picture to me, you've basically described World of Warcraft.


No, actually. What I'm describing is pretty much any current-gen MMO that has evolved out of the EQ stone age when it comes to encounter design and character development...

Quote:
You are condescending towards FFXI comparisons, citing that FFXIV is not FFXI, without realizing that we must all use comparisons to what we know to describe what we mean, as you yourself often use WoW.


...which is to include FFXI, because any comparisons of FFXI to more recent MMOs clearly outlines just how limited FFXI was. And frankly, if people would stop making statements along the lines of, "Well, if you allow <this>, then everything will be <that>" (ie. if you allow AoE threat then everything will be an AoE burn), I wouldn't be so inclined to site references of other games to point out how narrow that line of thinking really is. Just because you introduce <option B> through the implementation of certain mechanics doesn't default every single scenario in the game to <scenario X>. If all you've got is <option A>, then yes, every single scenario will be a variation on the exact same thing. Control one active mob and disable the rest, as an example. If, on the other hand, you implement <options A, B, and C>, you can design encounters that involve a healthy and diverse mix of <scenario X, Y, Z> and HUZZAH!! Right out of the box you have more potential.

Quote:
Quote:
In my situation, the developers have options to include BOTH kinds of encounters for the sake of variety. In your situation, it's the same crap repeated ad infinitum. Nobody wants another broken, dull game.


See, when you make strawman arguments like this, it's really hard to have a decent conversation. Nowhere did I propose that there cannot be alternatives. I've only stated my preference, which is that I do not want WoW's low-difficulty - easy mode instance grouping to be the norm for most of my XP session, of which tanks regularly take on 2-3 mobs and getting cure bombed. You've basically argued against me although I essentially agree with you that there needs to be variety.


It's not a strawman argument. You label it as such for your own reasons, but it's a valid argument. You're basically arguing with yourself, in essence saying that you like diversity as long as it's not diverse. "Handle any situation with CC and single target dps" is not diverse. It's the same...boring...crap...repeated ad infinitum. It's called "tedious". Every once in a while it's nice to have a break from "tedious" and just blow sh*t up in vast numbers. Then you can go back to "tedious" because it makes sense strategically, not because tedious is the only option given to you by the developers.

Edited, Jan 4th 2010 3:43pm by AureliusSir
#37 Jan 04 2010 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
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saiyandon wrote:
Odin: 1st off WoW is not a one tank grab it all and spam heal the tank situation all the time, quite often there are specific mobs you need to cc,some which must be off tanked and some that you need to kite.

Lotro is another game where the tank often will grab a large group of enemies, but again, sometimes you need cc, sometimes the tank can hold it all, etc. etc. etc.

I'm sure I could list other examples but don't really feel that is necessary. Lighten up a bit, there's no need to degrade another game, be it wow, ffxi, eq or whatever just because you don't happen to like it, crap like that is what changes a discussion into a flame war.

odinpingpong wrote:
I'd prefer skilled coordination of CCs. A lot more single target CCs, and multi-mob management where you have to switch targets in order to win.

hate to say it (especially because I personally don't like WoW) but that is exactly what you get in quite a few wow instances, especially the major fights, as well as alot of the instance content in lotro (well the higher level stuff anyway)


What you are talking about is endgame raiding in WoW, which I quite enjoyed. I'm actually not worried about endgame in FFXIV as much as the rest of the game where you xp. The leveling process through instances was mostly 1 tank being able take on 2-3 mobs with AOE hate gain with no CC necessary. In fact, in most cases, you wanted the mobs to melee you for rage.

Instead of taking on 1 IT mob with the possibility of another IT mob linking and wiping the party, you face 3 Even Match mobs at once, all of which could reasonably be soloed or duoed. The penalty is less b/c the average mob in WoW is weaker and goes down quicker, thus AOE abilities are often used as a hate gain control, while in FFXI, AOE abilities were synced with CC following or other AOE abilities of other members to prevent wipes as all mobs are much stronger.

Hard to explain what I mean, but taking on 3 IT Uleguland Range mobs who happened to link by sight every once is a much more dynamic and breathtaking experience than constantly killing 3 grouped razorbacks.

Edited, Jan 4th 2010 6:49pm by odinpingpong
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#38 Jan 04 2010 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
Zemzelette wrote:
Quote:
That's not to say that they can't tune content so that the role of the tank can be performed by a "less than ideal" setup, but for more advanced content you need a character with substantially above average mitigation or you simply can't tune mobs to be so threatening as to make it seem like a challenge.


I think there's alot of ways to make something threatening and challenging without relying on higher-than-average damage.


I agree, but at some point in the evolution of a game you're going to want to fight something that hits really, really hard because that makes it challenging. In that case, mitigation and threat become key. Make sure the guy most apt to survive the beating is the one taking it, as it were. Not everything has to be like that, but there's certainly a clearly defined niche for the traditional tank role in any MMO.
#39 Jan 05 2010 at 12:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I like FFXI, I don't like WoW... Nuff said

Seriously though what "current gen" MMO isn't using throw backs that EQ first started? WoW was designed by former EQ players that in essence changed the things they hated. Most post-WoW are basically WoW with a new IP placed over it. They have the same looks in terms of UI, the same gameplay, the same features, almost the same everything.

I hope FFXIV is going to be the next MMO revolution because as it stands the current model is getting really stale.

Edited, Jan 4th 2010 11:15pm by dyvidd
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#40 Jan 05 2010 at 12:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Get rid of enmity, it was a non-measurable stat anywho, and just make a tank a tank. Tanks should have the power to rip hate off the most powerful damage dealer out there honestly. Yes, some of this needs to be left up to skill, but honestly let's let a tank-tank in this game; Not the Drk/Nin slashing the dragon while the shadows are absorbed.
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#41 Jan 05 2010 at 1:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Berezo wrote:
Get rid of enmity, it was a non-measurable stat anywho, and just make a tank a tank. Tanks should have the power to rip hate off the most powerful damage dealer out there honestly. Yes, some of this needs to be left up to skill, but honestly let's let a tank-tank in this game; Not the Drk/Nin slashing the dragon while the shadows are absorbed.


Enmity has a measurable value in FFXI. Although you're wrong about the enmity value, I agree with your opinion that a tank should retain hate. That's why I rather see a tank have higher yield taunts and instead focus your tanking efforts on migrating the damage. For example, a PLD/nin has limited tools for damage migration. If shadows are wiped early, migration is randomized that your shield will proc and so forth. Instead I'd rather have more control to migrate damage while worrying less about the mob getting away from me. If we are expected to manage a horde of mobs at a single time, it's only logical that a compromise must address all other aspects of tanking.
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