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Thoughts on SummoningFollow

#1 Jan 08 2010 at 8:50 PM Rating: Decent
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We can all bet that there will be some type of summoning job even if the name will be different than the traditional "summoner" in FFXIV. What do you all think SE should do? Keep the same summons that have been used throughout the FF's, use completely new ones, or a combo of new and old?


I personally like the idea of all new, but have a few familar summons, so then all can be satisfied.
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#2 Jan 08 2010 at 8:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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From what i remember, there is no pet jobs as of now, so there no summon class/job.
#3 Jan 08 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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We may see one later. Summoner wasn't a launch job in FFXI either. We need to save some stuff for expansions!
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#4 Jan 08 2010 at 9:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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I do want to see pet jobs later on. I'm sure there might be something as a summoner, beastmaster, puppetmaster, or hopfully something brand new.
#5 Jan 08 2010 at 10:38 PM Rating: Good
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I think summons should be like older final fantasy title with every class gets a summon. Beasty comes out, does a little trick, then goes back to the void.
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#6 Jan 08 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh, I'm sure there will be a summoner job, just later on. And I would like to see both new and old. I feel "At home" with like Bahamut, Shiva, Ramuh and the like. And it's fun to see some additions sometimes.
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#7 Jan 08 2010 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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summoning will probably be the new 2hr ability, by equipping different weapons (different class) you can have a different summon
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#8 Jan 08 2010 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
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Pet classes are notoriously hard to balance correctly. I suspect we won't see one until the first expansion hits. That will give them plenty of time to balance the primary classes and work on new classes.
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#9 Jan 09 2010 at 12:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I have a hard time seeing summoner as a playable job since they were pretty adamant on no pet jobs. BUT. I would love to see each class get its unique avatar. I would liken them to Totemas in FFTA, once you gain enough...something...you can use this move. In FFTA it was judge points gained by defeating monsters. Obviously, judges are unique to Ivalice, but I think there should be some sort of bonus for going long stretches without dying. Win a fight? Gain a point. Die, lose your points. That would solve the problem of dying punishments.

Warriors could get Ifrit, or Titan.
Healers could get Pheonix or Unicorn, possible Carbuncle.
Black mages could get Shiva or Ramuh.
Obviously there are no specific 'jobs' in FFXIV but your summon could be based on your role in battle.
Maybe even give us the option of selecting from a list when in our mog houses or something.

There could be trouble with endgame, building up your points before a big boss fight. But we all remember farming to get limit breaks and overdrives up before hard bosses in other FF games. Just a thought though.
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#10 Jan 09 2010 at 5:20 AM Rating: Good
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I have to say I really hate the idea of job-specific summons, not that I think it's likely since they continually say that they won't have jobs as we know them. I wouldn't want to feel like the job and summon I chose were a package deal such that I probably couldn't have the job and summon that I wanted. If I could choose the summon, that would be a completely different matter.

Preferably something like FF8, where you bond with a summon.
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#11 Jan 09 2010 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know. The summon would be like a 2Hour or something. Those definitely got packaged together with the job in FFXI. Changing summons while in the mog house equivilant would be really nice I think.
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#12 Jan 09 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
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If they did put summoner in Id like the class to be flexible. Have the ability to fulfill the all primary roles well but only one at a time based on what summon was out. So for instance Id like to see maybe 12 summons across 4 broad roles.

Tank
Healer
DD
Support/CC

Each role would have a low medium and high level variant. The abilities on the summoner them self would all be support abilities for their summons. To keep the class from getting to ridiculous only one summon would be allowed out at a time obviously. So if you have your tank summon out you can tank but not heal, or dd, etc. Casting the summon spells should have a long enough casting time and long enough cooldown to make it impossible to switch summons on the fly in combat forcing you to stick with the summon you have out when you go into combat.
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#13 Jan 09 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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There will be no summoner job, avatars are looked at as gods in FFXIV. It definitely won't be there on release and I highly doubt that with this system and their views on avatars, that it will ever be added. Summons are looked at as gods, summoned to conquer the world by the Banzuko people. We probally will be able to fight them in BCs as part of missions etc, but never as a summoner class.

1. They are hard to balance

2. They said that the banzuko tribes summoned godlike creatures to dominate the world, (these sound and 99.5% probably are avatars), and since that is true it wouldn't make sense to have a smn class. This would mean that average adventures would have the power to summon gods. If any adventure can summon gods then why is the Banzuko people even special in the story? It wouldn't make much sense at all.

3. The system in which you grow, doesn't sound like summons would even work in.

I'm not saying that i'm 100% sure that there will be no pet jobs, but I'm 99% sure that there will not be a job that summon avatars. I wouldn't be surprised if SE went away with all pet jobs either (bst etc) though. The system with weapons being so important, and the storyline doesn't call for it. Avatars are a bigger purpose in this game, rather than just summonable beasts.

#14 Jan 09 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
2. They said that the banzuko tribes summoned godlike creatures to dominate the world, (these sound and 99.5% probably are avatars), and since that is true it wouldn't make sense to have a smn class. This would mean that average adventures would have the power to summon gods. If any adventure can summon gods then why is the Banzuko people even special in the story? It wouldn't make much sense at all.


Well we are forgetting the story changes. What if at some point in the missions you uncover the true about the summons and the Banzuko? Although my thoughts are along yours, I do believe avatars will have certain effect with adventurer. Instead fully summoned they will lend strength like the last batch for SMN in FFXI where you can get enhancement from the avatar. Probably you pray to the avatar and get some kind of Enfire, or the carbunicle ruby. Indeed it will be hard to obtain such power and mostlikely have either a long recast or wearable items (this meaning you defeat the avatar in a BCNM and you get ramuth's staff for example and has 1 cast summoning. Then is useless and breaks or turns to a regular staff or a staff with less effect always knowing you can carry one only and fights might be extremely hard.) Or so I believe.
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#15 Jan 09 2010 at 6:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think we are all thinking of SMN as a pet class. Only the past few FF games had the Summon be part of the Party. SMN could still be apart of the game, you summon an avatar, it does its thing, then goes away. They could be crystals you insert into a staff. Once equipped you have access to certain spells and abilities related to that summon. For example Carbuncle inserted: Auto reflect for the user, access to spells related to magic absorb, haste etc. Then when summoned casts something like Reflect on whole party for a set time. Lets take another example. Ifrit could be offensive. When summoned does massive fire damage. Also giving something like flame spikes to the user. Doing fire damage to an enemy that attacks him. There are many possibilities here. Bottom line is it doesn't have to be a pet job
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#16 Jan 09 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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I think we are all thinking of SMN as a pet class. Only the past few FF games had the Summon be part of the Party. SMN could still be apart of the game, you summon an avatar, it does its thing, then goes away. They could be crystals you insert into a staff. Once equipped you have access to certain spells and abilities related to that summon. For example Carbuncle inserted: Auto reflect for the user, access to spells related to magic absorb, haste etc. Then when summoned casts something like Reflect on whole party for a set time. Lets take another example. Ifrit could be offensive. When summoned does massive fire damage. Also giving something like flame spikes to the user. Doing fire damage to an enemy that attacks him. There are many possibilities here. Bottom line is it doesn't have to be a pet job


Hehehe there its explained better than i did. I agree completely. In the past it acted as a magic casted once, consumed MP and left. which saves not only space but its attacks seemed to be stronger than when summoned outside. (I wonder if we will have a phenix with automatic raise )

The only problem I see is how often or how much will it cost to get an ability as such
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#17 Jan 09 2010 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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I think we are all thinking of SMN as a pet class. Only the past few FF games had the Summon be part of the Party. SMN could still be apart of the game, you summon an avatar, it does its thing, then goes away. They could be crystals you insert into a staff. Once equipped you have access to certain spells and abilities related to that summon. For example Carbuncle inserted: Auto reflect for the user, access to spells related to magic absorb, haste etc. Then when summoned casts something like Reflect on whole party for a set time. Lets take another example. Ifrit could be offensive. When summoned does massive fire damage. Also giving something like flame spikes to the user. Doing fire damage to an enemy that attacks him. There are many possibilities here. Bottom line is it doesn't have to be a pet job


I understand that stories change but it wouldn't make sense for it to change in that way. Like I said, I can see us using the power to summon as the only way to defeat that threat, but that wouldn't be summoning avatars at will, it would be in a BC setting. You maybe could get the avatars, (gods) on your side, and fight the enemy in a BC format. In no way would a storyline like this change into a class where everybody can just summon gods at will, it just wouldn't make sense.

As much as I would like a smn class, I'd rather be realistic and go off what we know than to hold onto false hope. The storyline is set in a way to purposely have a duty for avatars that is higher than a class, I don't think they will deviate from that direction. When has the storyline (main storyline) actually determined what classes you could play as. In order for that to happen the main storyline would have to do a whole 180 degree turn just to add in a class, that is hard to balance to begin with.

#18 Jan 09 2010 at 9:19 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think the post referred to make a smn kind of class but that summoners would aid at command by junction of weapon and a crystal for example. The avatar would help in its specific way almost as the Greek Gods instead of fighting for the heroes they gave them some temporary power only once and or shoot a lightning don as zeus did often.

I can see, if the summons are god like creatures, that expensive or hard long casting rare abilities are capable to exist. It will all depend on how the story line is portrait.

As always, is just speculations :P
Check this See the similarity between the staff that the beast-tribe has with the actual monster? The monster is similar to ifrit and not only that... is made of fire. Also, the staff has horns like the supposedly summon and two red stones possible what it could be use to summon the creature for the little help.

Maybe is just used by that tribe only, Maybe is just for a cut scene, or maybe is usable. That is the only thing bugging my head so far


Edited, Jan 9th 2010 10:36pm by ramdragn
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#19 Jan 10 2010 at 4:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think there is a class in the MMO-history that were designed worse than Summoner.

Take for example spirits. 18 MP per tick, for 45 seconds, for a random spell, AND those 45 seconds reset if you use the assault command.

Way too expensive, way too random, and way too slow. And what is the benefit? You don't get hate for the action. Yay, no hate for casting bind on a mob that has 10% HP left, can it get better? Yes it can, because you paid 240 MP for it.

You can also look at the newest addition favors. Using a BP resets the favor potency to worst bonus, and it takes 1 min to get it high.

Someone really should ask SE what the big idea is with resets on SMN. I've never seen any other job get things reset. Like on BRD your minuets and marches don't just disappear because you sing ballad or lullaby. PUP doesn't have their mage puppet reset casting timers each time they add a maneuver. Charming a mob as BST doesn't reset their TP. No, SMN is the only job SE decided needed a reset penalty system.
#20 Jan 10 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, rest assured, there are some pretty godawful examples of pet-class design out there.
It seems to be one of the trickier things an MMO can try to tackle.

That being said, XI's SMN is kind of special in it's complete awkwardness. It's like the big boss burst in one day and handed down an executive meddling decree that the employees had no choice but to implement and humor. It's disjointed on a perplexingly fundamental level. To this day, I'm amazed by the tooth-and-nail perseverance of the early playerbase to make something functional (if not exactly satisfying) out of that mess.

I'm actually kind of relieved SE said they hadn't any current plans on implementing summons as part of a pet class.
Maybe they did learn something from XI afterall.


Edited, Jan 10th 2010 8:10pm by Zemzelette
#21 Jan 11 2010 at 5:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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i wouldnt mind seeing summons as the new "2hr" so to speak. done right it could be quite fun.

take for example the above suggestion of each individual character getting a summon for their 2hr. you can only have one summon equipped at a time on a character, and they all share a 2hr cooldown (to prevent rotating of summons to compensate for the cooldown).

example -

you have five summons available to you; shiva, ifrit, ramuh, titan and garuda. you can opt to equip one of those at any time, and when you use your 2hr summon ability, said summon comes out, does a bunch of damage with an extra side effect tacked on, and then goes away for another two hours. maybe shiva can lower enemy armor, ifrit can add a fire damage dot, ramuh can lower enemy magic defense, titan can lower enemy strength and garuda applies an attack and casting speed debuff to the targets (these are just suggestions to get the idea across). other summons could be accessed via questing, or some other in game method (preferably questing, unless its like yojimbo, who you would likely pay out the *** for).

each summon has an elemental property to the attack in addition to the debuff (which would last a decent amount of time, say 3-5 minutes or so). depending on the class you choose to play as, your summon choice will change. if youre a tank, lowering enemy attack speed or strength makes good sense, so youll equip titan or garuda. an offensive caster would love ramuh for the damage or the debuff, or shiva and ifrit for the raw damage and support factor. a support caster would likely choose titan or garuda or ramuh for the debuffs they provide.

we could even go further than this and allow customization of the summons to suit each person's invididual needs. a summon could be augmented in such a way as to improve certain stats based on the summon. a melee dps class could have a ramuh that adds lightning damage to melee attacks, or a black mage could have an ifrit that provided his fire spells with their own dot effect. these effects would be constant, and not too powerful, but they would color the choices a person makes based on their job and what role that job is going to fill.

i think it would add a neat bit of customization to the whole thing while also giving everyone access to one of the biggest parts, coolest parts of the FF series.

i doubt it will happen, but i can still dream.

Edited, Jan 11th 2010 3:14am by Quor
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#22 Jan 11 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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I hope summoner is more like older FFs where it was a single AoE spell. It could work in XIV like the summons in FFVI and some of VIII.

A mage character selects one summon at a time to be equipped. By equipping the summon, lets say Ifrit just for easy recognition, that character gets a bonus to fire spells cast, and if he/she has enough MP can summon Ifrit to do an AoE fire spell for huge damage. Also by having Ifrit equipped his affinity towards Shiva drops a little making the casting time of the Shiva summon take a little longer.

To me, that sounds balanced and flexible. They could even add quests that the player could go on to boost their affinity with a particular summon. Some may involve fighting the summon, others could be finding items or crafting something.
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#23 Jan 11 2010 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh, rest assured, there are some pretty godawful examples of pet-class design out there.


I haven't seen any worse. Though I have to admit my love for the UO pet system was more based on how hilarious it was than how efficient it was.

Long story short, I tamed an alligator, told him to follow me, and he bit my ankle so I died.
#24 Jan 11 2010 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
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as much as i hate pet classes, I would still like to see some sort of summoning job.
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#25 Jan 11 2010 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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The affinity system King mentioned reminded me a lot of FFVIII. If you remember, certain characters had more compatibility with certain summons, which in turn would make the GF attacks stronger when used by said certain characters. Affinity would have to be a set level in XIV, or maybe it could vary in some ways I'm not seeing. Being able to summon effectively could definitely help with soloing. I can't exactly see SMN making a reappearance in XIV, but more like summons will be spread throughout the board more. But all I can do is speculate.
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