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How would you like the AH to be?Follow

#1 Jan 10 2010 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry if there's already a topic on this. I did a quick scan through the first page and didn't see a thread about it.

I disliked the AH system in FFXI. It wasn't really an AH at all. It was just "post your item for a set price" and hope someone buys it.

I liked the AH system in D&D Online. It's what an auction should be like.

You post and item on the AH, and set the "starting price" and a "buy now" price.



For example:

I post an Insect Wing on the AH. I set the starting price to 100,000 gil and the buy now price to 300,000 gil. I also have the option to select how long the item remains on the AH before it is taken down (eg. 1 day, 2 days, or 3 days...the AH fee depends on how long you want it to be posted).

Once the item is posted, other people can see your item on the AH. They see both the starting price and the buy now price. Since the starting price is 100,000 gil, you have to place a bid higher than that. Each time you click bid, the current bid price goes up by 10%.

eg. The item is posted starting at 100,000 gil.

Player 1 clicks on bid, and 100,000 gil is taken out of his purse and put "on hold" for the item.

Player 2 wants this item. He clicks bid, and 110,000 gil (each bid must go up 10% minimum from the last bid) is taken out from his purse and put "on hold." Player 1's 100,000 gil that was taken out from his purse is immediately mailed back into his delivery box.

The current bid is now 110,000 gil by Player 2. Other people also see that the current bid is 110k.

Player 3 wants this item. He doesn't mind bidding 200,000 gil on it, so he does. 200k is taken out of his purse and put on hold. Player 2's 110k is immediately mailed back to him.

The current bid is now 200k by Player 3.

Player 4 wants this item bad. He doesn't mind paying 300k for it, so he clicks "buy now." He gets the item immediately for 300k. Player 3's 200k is mailed back to him.



This is how an AH system should work.

Another optional thing that can be done is give the seller the option to post his name next to the item, so a potential buyer knows who the seller is and can send him a tell. eg. Seller posted an item for 100k starting price and 300k buy now price. A buyer is interesting in buying it immediately, but doesn't want to spend more than 250k. He can /tell the seller and offer 250k to buy it directly from the seller.

Thoughts?












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#2 Jan 10 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Is the Economic situation of FFXIV going to be mainly player based with Auction Houses or non-player based with NPC ran stores?

We can't go into details about this just yet. We're very sorry about that. This question is better suited to be asked in a couple of months time. However, it's going to be not the same as with auctionhouses, but something very interesting.

This "something very interesting" has me very interested. I doubt that Square Enix will use an auction house system or idea similar to any mmorpg out there. I'm mystified as to what SE will do.

Edited, Jan 10th 2010 6:34pm by KeeperOfTheStaff
#3 Jan 10 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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I wouldn't like a real auction type of system. A lot of people including myself would like to get stuff when we want it, and not have to wait days to see if anyone out bids us. I also don't want to be penalized by having to buy the "buy now" price all the time, just because I don't have the time to wait an auction out. With an auction system its either you get penalized because you want the item now (so you have to buy the item over priced on a "buy now" option), or you have to wait days to get stuff. That doesn't sound like a good system to me at all in an MMO.

I liked FFXI AH system much better, and I was actually relieved when I found out that the AH was not a real auction house type of system. It wasn't a perfect system and it could be improved on a ton, but it beats waiting for bids to work out, or having to over buy everything because of a "buy now" button. At least in FFXI if you matched what he put it up for you got the item and went along with your day.

People want the item at the time that they want the item (if its possible to be brought). When people want a new sword or whatever they would like to buy it and use it immediately, without having to totally over pay for it just because they don't have the time or the patience to wait out a bid.

I could just see it now, your buddy ask you why you haven't got your new spell yet, and you have to answer like this "The bid is still going on, and I don't have the gil to over pay that much for it by hitting the buy now button."
#4 Jan 10 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Default
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I felt that FFXI's AH setup was very, very conducive to a player driven, capitalistic economy and I'd love to see it again in FFXIV. Unfortunately, RMT pretty much ruined it, so it obviously won't be happening, especially since SE has already indicated as much.

Should be interesting!
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#5 Jan 10 2010 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I liked FFXI's system for an AH. TBH what you describe seems kind of tedious, and pointless to me.
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#6 Jan 10 2010 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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I wouldn't like a real auction type of system. A lot of people including myself would like to get stuff when we want it, and not have to wait days to see if anyone out bids us. I also don't want to be penalized by having to buy the "buy now" price all the time, just because I don't have the time to wait an auction out. With an auction system its either you get penalized because you want the item now (so you have to buy the item over priced on a "buy now" option), or you have to wait days to get stuff. That doesn't sound like a good system to me at all in an MMO.

Agreed on that... it's an even bigger problem if the system ties up your bid money while you're waiting for the results, keeping you from bidding on many things at once.

But where a genuine auction system like this would have been nice in FFXI was with new items. Unless it was something with stats that fell neatly in between two other items, the first person to sell an item had no idea what to charge for it and buyers had no idea what to bid. The first few sale prices ended up being way out of whack with what the market would eventually settle on. A bid system would get a lot of different people involved and give a more realistic sense of market value for those items.

So an auction house that combines both systems might be kind of neat.
#7 Jan 10 2010 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
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Depending on how the game develops...Will there be a higher level city (jueno, whitegate) where people migrate to after a couple weeks of playing? Or will starter cities stay a central hub of sorts for players to keep rooted.

If city life follows the same path cities did in XI, then the only major thing I would like to see is a centralized AH system.

If the game design makes it so players of all "levels" stay in these main starter cities, then I can see localized AH being more viable. Will be interesting to see how it works out and how location will play a roll in where materials accumulate.

More Ah slots is another less important thing I would like to see. Seven is just not enough. 20 seems like a nice round number without going overboard.

Also even though every other game out does it, lets see the people listing the items. If I see 15/20 items are listed by jighyet I would like to buy the ones listed by the legit player.

Bids and buyout works pretty well. Bid only auctions suck if you're in a hurry, but if you're browsing for deals, you can snipe bids. The buy it now convenience doesn't run a muck to bad in other games, the buy it now prices tends to be the market price +/-.

In the end it's all going to depend on how the gear distribution works; how the crafting works; how dependent on the ah players will be; where the players will be basing their homepoints from. After seeing how game play is in the game, will make it easier to decide what we would like to see implemented.
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#8 Jan 10 2010 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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There needs to be an iPhone app that lets you manage your bids from anywhere!
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#9 Jan 10 2010 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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I'd like to see player stores that are all linked and searchable via some very accessible interface. Kind of like how Phantasy Star Universe did it.

Auction houses become lag havens and tend to divert attention away from what you were planning on doing. How many times have you HPed to WG, then purchased a Silver to Warp back to your Home Nation only to go back to where you were supposed to meet up via a OP? All the while holding up others that are waiting for you. It should not be that time consuming nor difficult just to buy or sell NIN Tools. Having separate Auction houses was equally counter-productive and overly complicated.

Make it simple, make it accessible and do not make the AH an area where players congregate because of poor design.
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#10 Jan 10 2010 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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I didn't mind the FFXI style AH at all, to be honest. It was nice to know whether or not you got the item without having to, according to your model, worry about your money being tied up in the system. Also, a system like that inevitably leads to minimal successful bids by people who can't camp the auction house for long periods of time. It wouldn't be conducive to the whole "adventuring" thing if people are too afraid to leave a city, lest they be outbid.


If there was an auctioning system, I'd like it to be more personalized by the bazaar system. Let it be for finding those "great deals" and not for the majority of in game trades.
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#11 Jan 10 2010 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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WoW's AH system is similar to the one the OP mentioned. People's concerns about their money getting tied up in the system are valid, but my experience with the AH in WoW is that people usually just used the "buy now" option. It didn't adversely affect the economy - essentially, it became like FFXI's system. If you're a crafter and want to get a good deal on certain mats, sometimes it's worthwhile to wait out the auction. Overall, though, immediate buying/selling was generally how it went.

The thing I didn't like about FFXI's system is how it showed you the cost history of items and didn't show you what the item was currently going for. I'd rather have the option to look at both history and current cost, but if I had to pick one, I'd go for having the current cost up. I'm sure I wasted hours over my years playing FFXI waiting to see if my latest bid on an item had gone through. Especially on consumables that tended to fluctuate rapidly in periods of high/low supply. Same thing with big ticket items.
#12 Jan 10 2010 at 7:45 PM Rating: Default
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But where a genuine auction system like this would have been nice in FFXI was with new items. Unless it was something with stats that fell neatly in between two other items, the first person to sell an item had no idea what to charge for it and buyers had no idea what to bid. The first few sale prices ended up being way out of whack with what the market would eventually settle on. A bid system would get a lot of different people involved and give a more realistic sense of market value for those items.


That's exactly what I meant when I said, the FFXI system was not perfect and could be improved. It would be nice if they let you saw what the lowest price was on all items. I mean if 30 are up, you should have the option of viewing the price history and the lowest price that is currently up. At least this way you could compare the price history with the current lowest price. Also if there is only 1 up like on rare items, you can see what that item is up for since it would be the lowest price by default.

You use the AH over a million times sometimes in one day, so bidding would definitely get tedious and just pointless. Also people run on a schedule, they don't have time to wait for bids to finish and keep checking bids. Buy now just punishes the people that don't have the time or patience to work with a tedious system. Also people would actually like to get stuff when they want it, and not wait 3 days for a spell because the bid is still going on.
#13 Jan 10 2010 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
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TheShadowWalker wrote:
I felt that FFXI's AH setup was very, very conducive to a player driven, capitalistic economy and I'd love to see it again in FFXIV. Unfortunately, RMT pretty much ruined it, so it obviously won't be happening, especially since SE has already indicated as much.

Should be interesting!


I wasn't just RMT that abused this, I've seen other players do it, including myself. Not that I am proud or anything but Smithing was pretty expensive and sometimes the items needed an "adjustment" in the AH.
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#14 Jan 10 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Decent
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The ffxi system was decent. The only thing that annoyed me was that it didn't show the price an item was input at by the seller. I mean, it wasn't an auction at all, it was a guessing game. Any frugal person just bid low and if it was rejected they bid up and up and up in tiny increments until they got the exact price a person set an item at anyway, so there wasn't any point in not showing the price other than to waste people's time.

The op basically described e-bay, which is an actual auction and I think that would be cool as well.

Ideally you could get the best of both worlds and you would with an e-bay like system with the buy now option. Having a buy now option wouldn't necessarily mean things would be overpriced. The ffxi auction was basically a buy-now only option. The stuff that moves fast would constantly be undercut until you hit a price nobody could afford to go lower than. The big-ticket rare stuff could be better served in a true auction environment, though.
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#15 Jan 10 2010 at 8:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Ideally you could get the best of both worlds and you would with an e-bay like system with the buy now option. Having a buy now option wouldn't necessarily mean things would be overpriced. The ffxi auction was basically a buy-now only option. The stuff that moves fast would constantly be undercut until you hit a price nobody could afford to go lower than. The big-ticket rare stuff could be better served in a true auction environment, though.


The purpose of a "buy now" button in the first place is to put the item at a price that is over priced and that the seller would automatically agree too. The reason that the seller automatically agrees to this price is because its higher than a bid would probably go, which in result means overpriced. It would be no purpose in bidding if the "buy now" price was at a reasonable price. Why bid when if other people join in on the bid it probably will go at least the same or even higher than the "buy now" price. It wouldn't make sense to even bid on anything if the "buy now" price wasn't overpriced. In result an auction system just punishes the people that want the item instantly, or doesn't have the time or patience to wait on a bid to finish. This forces people to either wait days in order to get every little thing, or be forced to buy an item that is overpriced. People buy and sell items a million times a day, it would get tedious after one day of playing in this kind of system especially if I was a crafter.

Edited, Jan 10th 2010 10:02pm by HocusP

Edited, Jan 10th 2010 10:04pm by HocusP
#16 Jan 10 2010 at 9:03 PM Rating: Good
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Buy now price is good and all but most people will boost that price pretty high hence forcing your hand at bidding and playing the waiting game and checking and etc. etc. I would much prefer the FFXI way of AH as opposed to OP.
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#17 Jan 10 2010 at 9:10 PM Rating: Good
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First of all I would like to thank Threx for describing the WOW auction system and not assume everyone in the world plays WOW. Secondly, I think that the FFXI system would be perfect if they displayed what the seller wants for a certain item. I definitely don't want any system that would make me wait hours or even days to get an item.
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#18 Jan 10 2010 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
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eBay in FFXIV, No thanks.

Whatever this "very interesting" system is, it also has me very interested. I'm just wondering if they'll let us keep something of a bazaar as well. People were pretty good about including what they were selling in /seacom, especially in Rolanberry, but not all the time. Or maybe it was just my server.
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#19 Jan 10 2010 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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WoW has a good AH system in place. Something similar but improving it would be fine by me.
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#20 Jan 10 2010 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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I've been spending the last ten minutes trying to wrap my head around the idea of not having an auction house in XIV, according to what the devs said about it being something else, "something very interesting." It's difficult, because almost any MMO out there uses some form of the same cookie-cutter auction house, where you can set prices, bid prices/buyouts, multiple bids, etc, and it's hard to shake what you're used to. Some implementations are more advanced than others, but they're all pretty much running off of the same philosophy. What else would you do if you didn't use an auction house to drive a player-run economy? Player shops?

Most of us are probably familiar with, and past shoppers of Rolanberrymart. In other games that have personal shops/bazaars, you've probably waded through the multitudes of people with bubbles over their heads advertising CHEEP STUFF HERE. IMO, that's neither interesting or conducive to finding what I'd like to buy. So, if not personal shops that you set up in the middle of the entrance area, and if you're not going to use an auction house, what then?

What if you took a little bit of both, and combined it with other ideas to form something like this:

XxSephirothxX steps up to a large archway off the square in a main city, the entrance to the Market District. As he approaches, a menu pops up on his screen listing different categories, like Food, Apothecary, Armor, Weapons, etc. He chooses one, and is presented with a list of shops that carry the items he's looking for. He chooses one, and is taken inside an instanced shop or neighborhood of similar shops that fellow players have rented, decorated, and customized to their liking, with an NPC shopkeeper (comes with the rent) behind the counters.

This is just one way that I thought of, and I'm sure there are others. This way though, allows players to own their own shops, which is something I've seen brought up from time to time on various game forums as something the crafting communities would enjoy. It removes the eyesore of having to wade through the countless personal shops in cities. It retains the player-driven economy, and personalizes it. The menu and instanced area idea comes from LOTRO and the player housing neighborhoods, so there's ways to implement that already out there.

I'm really curious to see what Squenix will do now. There are a lot of possibilities out there for something completely out of the norm, and I'm really hoping they will go for it.
#21 Jan 10 2010 at 11:09 PM Rating: Good
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I have an idea. First though, I want to say I loved how FFXI's AH interfeace was... everything was nice and organized and easily accessible. I especially enjoyed how you can organize things the way you want to.

Now it seems like many people want to put more emphasis on bazaars, especially because it seems like crafting is going to be a much bigger deal than in FFXI. I agree with this. What if SE made it so that whatever you put into your personal bazaar for sale was automatically listed at the auction houses all across the server?

So when you went and looked at an item for sale at the AH every one of that certain item in people's bazaar would also be listed, and you could buy it for the prices it's listed for in their bazaar. you'd receive the item immediately (like in ffxi) and the person selling it would receive their money and the same notification as in FFXI "FFfanlolz just made a purchase from your bazaar". This way every AH in the game will display the same info AND you can put things up for sale as soon as you get the drop or synth.

Item slots could be a problem unless you're given 35 'Bazaar slots' or whatever so that you're regular inventory isn't taken up.

Thoughts?

Edited, Jan 11th 2010 12:19am by mithrandrk
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#22 Jan 11 2010 at 2:16 AM Rating: Decent
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I hope it's exactly the same as FFXI. Loved the AH. WoW AH was bad.

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#23 Jan 11 2010 at 2:44 AM Rating: Good
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People against the "Buy Now" option because it'd be overpriced make it sound like they couldn't possibly ever do the same for things they'd sell. It'd even out in the end, this time actually rewarding people with patience as opposed to how XI was pretty much always first come, first serve for the AH, NMs, getting into a group, or whatever. There was really no negotiating with an unknown seller on the AH, either.

Additionally, the more common an item is, the less likely you'll be seeing drastic hikes for Buy Now options as competition could easily undercut even by pennies to be the better deal. If the aim is to move something fast, then the seller will list low.

One thing I do believe that needs to be kept in check is the resale market, though. In XI, you can see it's rather notorious when it comes to Dynamis currency. Sure, there's some risk involved from the resaler about a market tanking, but if they're rich enough to monopolize and eventually limit resources, people have little choice but to play their game if it's something needed. They then get exponentially richer and the cycle repeats.
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#24 Jan 11 2010 at 3:27 AM Rating: Good
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If they do something similar to the FFXI AH, please add one critical feature. When something is brought, allow the closest item under the bid amount be purchased first. It'll remove the need for constant undercutting to sell first and allow those who don't watch the market every 20 seconds to sell items regularly if people are willing to pay that price.

Current System
ItemX - Stock: 3
Prices: (100, 175, 200)

PlayerY Bids 75...
No Sale (100, 175, 200)
PlayerY Bids 99...
No Sale (100, 175, 200)
PlayerY Bids 197...
100 Sells for 197 (175, 200)
PlayerZ Bids 260...
175 Sells for 260 (200)
PlayerA Bids 100...
No Sale (200)

Proposed System
ItemX - Stock: 3
Prices:(100, 175, 200)

PlayerY Bids 75...
No Sale (100, 175, 200)
PlayerY Bids 99...
No Sale (100, 175, 200)
PlayerY Bids 197...
175 Sells for 197 (100, 200)
PlayerZ Bids 260...
200 Sells for 260 (100)
PlayerA Bids 100...
100 Sells for 100 (NULL)
#25 Jan 11 2010 at 3:37 AM Rating: Default
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I rather not have an auction system at all in FFXIV. IMO, it's too easy to be manipulated by RMT. Instead just have shops to sell your wares for your customers. The shop could be like your mog house in FFXI except the zoning of course. If there is an AH system, it should be a real auction, not some anonymous seller that could be over or under cutting the market. Besides, I rather not purchase from a RMT or some jerk on my /blist if I can help it.
#26 Jan 11 2010 at 3:55 AM Rating: Decent
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The problem with OP's idea is that it will make ppl camp AH more , more efforts into actually getting any item, and if bidding end time was known then its just a matter of bidding war at the last 30 min or so.

Say you have 6 ppl trying for Insect Wing.
P1 bid.
P2 outbid P1.
P1 outbid P2.
P3 outbid P1.
P4 joined the fun.
P5 bid for the sake of bidding.
P1 still need that item , outbid.
P6 outbid them all.
P1 end up "buy now"

This is in a small scale but in a large one it will be a mess , everyone will just camp AH or wait until last min to outbid everyone else.

(we had this bidding system on our LS for limbus, wasting 30min was normal. we had it over the website and ended up with ppl outbidding others right before bidding time get closed).

For myself , FFXI AH's system was cool and I hope to see it return in FFXIV.
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#27 Jan 11 2010 at 4:36 AM Rating: Good
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This is in a small scale but in a large one it will be a mess , everyone will just camp AH or wait until last min to outbid everyone else.


thats why you do it like WoW does it. they purposefully leave the times ambiguous in WoW to help combat this kind of thing. when you see a list of auctioned items, the times left on the bid are shown in three phases; very long, long, or short. very long is anywhere from 12-48 hours. long is anywhere from 1-12 hours, and short is anything under an hour. you dont know exactly when those things will end unless you somehow happened to see them when theyre initially posted (and thus can deduce the duration) or if the person whos selling it comes out and tells you.

all in all, i think WoW's auction system encompassed what i think of an "auction" more than anything else. the FF11 system always seemed a bit backwards, but that might have just been a cultural thing; maybe they do auctions differently in japan. however, for what its worth, id like to see the WoW style of AH implemented.
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#28 Jan 11 2010 at 4:49 AM Rating: Decent
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FFXI's AH system was superior to every AH system I've used, including WoWs. I'd like to have the same thing, just have all of them linked together instead of seperated into 4 different AH systems.

Also, I'd like for there to be a spot in the game where you are able to browse through peoples "bazaar's", if we still have them, even if the people aren't there. (Would still have to /tell the person and find them to conduct the trade, but at least you wouldn't have to find them just to figure out what they have.)

Edited, Jan 11th 2010 5:59am by Deadgye
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#29 Jan 11 2010 at 6:53 AM Rating: Good
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KeeperOfTheStaff wrote:
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Is the Economic situation of FFXIV going to be mainly player based with Auction Houses or non-player based with NPC ran stores?

We can't go into details about this just yet. We're very sorry about that. This question is better suited to be asked in a couple of months time. However, it's going to be not the same as with auctionhouses, but something very interesting.

This "something very interesting" has me very interested. I doubt that Square Enix will use an auction house system or idea similar to any mmorpg out there. I'm mystified as to what SE will do.
Just re-quoting this. Awfully phrased sentence but I assume they meant (However, it is not going to be the same as with auction houses).

I'm leaning towards the player-market style - and I have a feeling SE have put a lot of thought into it. Just a hunch anyway. The concept is certainly very interesting.
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#30 Jan 11 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, se said they're wont be an AH but something else. I think they should keep FFXI bazzar system beyond that should either let npcs also bazzar for you or let you set up your own shop in some type of market area.

The problem with the AH system is it allows to easy for price fixing.
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#31 Jan 11 2010 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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I guess different people have different opinions on the AH being an actual auction system, hehe.

Another thing that I would love to see IN ADDITION TO AN AH is some sort of "advertisement board."

People would view items the exact same way as they did in XI, but the difference is that the items wouldn't actually be posted.

Let's say I have some Fire Ores I want to sell. I already have 7 other things posted on the AH, and I have to head out for work. I can post an advertisement on the ad board.

Player 1 wants to know if anyone has Fire ores for sale. He looks for the Fire Ore section in the advertisement board, and finds out 2 people have them for sale. The advertisements can look like this:


=========
FIRE ORE
=========


Seller: Threx
Price: 140,000 Gil

Seller's note: I need to unload a CRAPLOAD of Fire Ores. I am online from 8pm-11pm during the weekdays and 3pm-10pm during weekends. If you buy more than 10 from me, I'll drop the price to 130k each.


Seller: Odinpingpong
Price: 150,000 Gil

Seller's note: I have up to 5 Fire Ores for sale. I may be willing to drop the price further if you buy them all. I'm online 24/7 so send me a /tell any time.


Player 1 can first check the AH to see if there are Fire Ores there he can buy immediately instead of having to waste time meeting up with the people who posted the ads. If there are none in the AH, or if they are way overpriced, he can then decide to contact Threx or Odinpingpong to do a private deal. Threx has a better deal, but isn't always online. Odinpingpong is a bit more expensive, but he's online right now. Player 1 can decide if he wants to contact Odinpingpong or wait a couple more hours for Threx to log on. Or if he's a rich ******* he can just buy the overpriced ones immediately from the AH and save himself some time.


This "advertisement" board is pretty much a centralized advertisement board for the items you already have in your bazaar anyway. Ads would last a certain amount of time before being automatically deleted (or the poster can delete his own ad any time he wants).

The difference is people don't have to search the entire world and click on people's names one at a time to see their personal comments and what they're selling in their bazaars.

I found it VERY annoying having to search the populated areas one at a time and click on people's names one at a time and HOPEFULLY I would fine someone selling the item I'm looking for.

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#32 Jan 11 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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We should have seller ratings too.

A++++ would buy again!
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#33 Jan 11 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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It seems like everyone got ****** about people undercutting the AH in FFXI because you couldn't see the prices. Trust me, if you could see the prices, it'd be a lot worse. Maybe I'm crazy, but when I played WoW, I'd see things I farmed go from 20G a stack to 1G to 10G to 30G, constantly fluctuating because some people would have these items and not need the Gold, so they'd just completely ignore the selling price of others and sell it for dirt cheap. In FFXI if you did this, most of the time it just got bought at a higher price than the 1Gold or whatever. If it didn't and sold for the dirt cheap price, because of the item history, other sellers could see that it was just a fluke and the price of the item wouldn't be changing constantly.

I know items changed price over time in FFXI, but my experience there was nothing like in WoW. I mean, I could check the AH in WoW, go to an instance with XX number of whatever I wanted to sell for 1G each and they'd be worth 20Silver by the time I got back. Mind you, in WoW this did not matter because getting Gold was... incredibly easy. That's a story for another day though. I don't want this to turn into FFXI vs WoW.
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#34 Jan 11 2010 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I rather not have an auction system at all in FFXIV. IMO, it's too easy to be manipulated by RMT.


Other games auction houses are not run by RMT. XI had/has RMT Ah problems because of the way game play was. Normal players couldn't have armies of characters farming 24/7; normal players couldn't use these truckloads of mats to craft 24/7; normal players didn't want to waste time crafting 1,000s of times for razor thin profits.

RMT in XI were unique, RMT in other games don't hold a candle to the techniques used in XI.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Instead just have shops to sell your wares for your customers. The shop could be like your mog house in FFXI except the zoning of course.


This is a nice idea. I liked browsing shops in in Rolanberry Fields. But it's not a practical solution to handling player to player trade 100%. AH systems best feature is the ability to categorize items to make your search quick. People won't want to spend hours browsing shop looking for that item they need.

I think this should be used for sure, but as an addition to some kind of AH system.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
If there is an AH system, it should be a real auction, not some anonymous seller that could be over or under cutting the market. Besides, I rather not purchase from a RMT or some jerk on my /blist if I can help it.


I agree with this 100%. That's why I like other games Ah systems. You can see the people who have listed the items and decide who you want to buy from.


koromaseraph wrote:
Well, se said they're wont be an AH but something else.


SE also said there won't be a character level. But weapons skill level will determine a character's strength. So still going to have a leveling system of sorts.

I would dare say there will be an AH system of sorts, they will just not call it an Auction House.

Mithra = Miqo'te
Elvaan = Elezen
Auction House = Mercantile Center?


HocusP wrote:

The purpose of a "buy now" button in the first place is to put the item at a price that is over priced and that the seller would automatically agree too. The reason that the seller automatically agrees to this price is because its higher than a bid would probably go, which in result means overpriced. It would be no purpose in bidding if the "buy now" price was at a reasonable price. Why bid when if other people join in on the bid it probably will go at least the same or even higher than the "buy now" price. It wouldn't make sense to even bid on anything if the "buy now" price wasn't overpriced. In result an auction system just punishes the people that want the item instantly, or doesn't have the time or patience to wait on a bid to finish. This forces people to either wait days in order to get every little thing, or be forced to buy an item that is overpriced. People buy and sell items a million times a day, it would get tedious after one day of playing in this kind of system especially if I was a crafter.


I'm just guessing, but you haven't used this type system before have you?
The buy it now feature does not mean overpriced. It means "this is what I'll take right now for the item." The prices adjust to a market standard just like any other system.

If someone were to put 1 mythril ore up with a bid of 1000 and buy of 5000. It would end up getting 1 person to bid and it would sit until the auction ends because no one will pay the 5000 when the market price is normally around 1000. (except people that absolutely need 1 ore and cant wait a few hours for another to be posted)

The "buy it" price tends to match the market price of items. The bids are usually pointless except for a couple of scenarios. 1. People bidding on low priced bids to try to gather cheap items of AH (don't ask why people sell common items for bid only, i dont know why. I do know they tend to make less than if they would have "buy now" it for going prices.) 2. A rare item that a seller uses only a bid sale as the rarity can drive prices very high. (if someone put a K-club on a bid only with start price of 1 gil, what do you think it will sell for after 3 days? if it bazaars for 45 mil, it will probably sell for around 45 mil, but may go higher if people haven't seen it around for a while.



Edited, Jan 11th 2010 1:46pm by RobbyFaces
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#35 Jan 11 2010 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheShadowWalker wrote:
It seems like everyone got ****** about people undercutting the AH in FFXI because you couldn't see the prices. Trust me, if you could see the prices, it'd be a lot worse. Maybe I'm crazy, but when I played WoW, I'd see things I farmed go from 20G a stack to 1G to 10G to 30G, constantly fluctuating because some people would have these items and not need the Gold, so they'd just completely ignore the selling price of others and sell it for dirt cheap. In FFXI if you did this, most of the time it just got bought at a higher price than the 1Gold or whatever. If it didn't and sold for the dirt cheap price, because of the item history, other sellers could see that it was just a fluke and the price of the item wouldn't be changing constantly.

I know items changed price over time in FFXI, but my experience there was nothing like in WoW. I mean, I could check the AH in WoW, go to an instance with XX number of whatever I wanted to sell for 1G each and they'd be worth 20Silver by the time I got back. Mind you, in WoW this did not matter because getting Gold was... incredibly easy. That's a story for another day though. I don't want this to turn into FFXI vs WoW.


You hit the nail on the head.

Also, way too many people are giving WoW's AH system credit for stopping RMTs when it had nothing to do with their Auction House at all. WoW curtailed RMT through itemization. The best items were all in raid dungeon instances, not sellable.

If we had WoW's AH system in FFXI, the RMT would still have controlled the market.
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#36 Jan 11 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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I want a computer hooked to the internet in my mog house so I can access the AH from the privacy of my home, no need to run around a city and risk to catch the flu....
#37 Jan 11 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Secondly, I think that the FFXI system would be perfect if they displayed what the seller wants for a certain item


I think displaying the seller's name would be good. I'd rather buy something that a friend posted over complete strangers if reasonably priced.
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#38 Jan 11 2010 at 1:24 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:

I'm just guessing, but you haven't used this type system before have you?
The buy it now feature does not mean overpriced. It means "this is what I'll take right now for the item." The prices adjust to a market standard just like any other system.


The reason why they will take that price right now is because its usually overpriced or the seller absolutely needs the money at that time. For the most part the seller has no interest in selling stuff as quick as possible, the seller is more worried about making as much money as possible. There are times when sellers have tons of stuff to sell and they are just worried about selling it as fast as possible, but for the most part the seller wants the most money. Its about economics and common sense, the reason why you bid in the first place is to raise the price of an item (by many people bidding on it). If the buy now price isn't overpriced then there wouldn't be a point in bidding. When I say overpriced I don't mean way outrageously overpriced, I mean its overpriced enough that the bid would probably not get that high. Why would you as a seller, not make the buy now price high and just wait a day or two for people to bid on it so they can raise the price of it. Only reason you wouldn't overprice the buy now price would be if you needed the money fast or you had to sell the item fast.

What I'm saying is the "buy now" price will always be higher than the starting bid price. This usually results in the buy now price being overpriced, unless its a very very common item. People don't start the starting bid price low because then they would run the risk of people not bidding on it and it going for a low price.

Slightly overpriced or not, it still punishes the common buyer that wants the item instantly. As many times as you use the AH, slight overprices start to add up, just because you didn't have the time or the patience to wait days for a bid.

Edited, Jan 11th 2010 3:04pm by HocusP
#39 Jan 11 2010 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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A normal auction/BIN style AH is the best way I think. There will always be market manipulators and monopolizers no matter what you do. Just for the love of god make the AH searchable.
#40 Jan 11 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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If is based in a more capitalistic way I believe they will allow some kind of "shop server" something like a bazzar you can access from a marketplace where you can have your items placed at the price you have. More or less like mules but Moghouse stile. Perhaps not that graphic.

Would be best to have stores by name and go to the store see what they have. The only thing I can think wrong with this system is how people will know where to look for an specific thing which in my opinion can be easily fixed by a search setup.

Ej. If I want some hide I search hide and get the stores. Or i can go to the PC shop that i know it usually sells them and search. . .
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#41 Jan 11 2010 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
Seven slots not. Items returned after 24 hours if unsold.
#42 Jan 11 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Seven slots not. Items returned after 24 hours if unsold.


Well if is your store you won't have to worry about item return. And slot wise would be a good question to ask. We still don't know how many item we can carry at max, if one with hide, or 12 or 99 (Which reminds me of a FF game that attacked by using item like weapons, FF adventure:NA I believe it was) But all that would depend in server space and handle.

A intriguing thought that came to mind is wether we have to be in store to sell or we can leave an assistant "like a moogle" to handle transaction. That is if the market idea I have is to exists. :P
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#43 Jan 11 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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I want to barter with wenches and goats.
#44 Jan 11 2010 at 3:22 PM Rating: Decent
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If someone is buying from the auction house they're going to want the item ASAP. If there was a wait time for other people to make bids, it would slow any player making bids down a lot.
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#45 Jan 11 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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Whatever system they go with in the end, I dearly hope they include a Price History like XI has. The other MMO's I've tried never seem to have this feature and it drives me nuts. The price history keeps prices somewhat stabilized, because you can see what other people have been paying. With the systems the other MMO's use you look at the average price of what's currently available, and if there aren't any up you're at the mercy of whoever is the first to put one back on the AH (with others then using that first price as a basis for their own listing).

Additionally, I would like to see separate Auction Houses again (based on region), instead of a single world-wide linked one.
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#46 Jan 11 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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An idea I've kicked around is to eliminate the AH system entirely for a two pronged approach:

1) Player shops similar to FFXI in which you can list items in your inventory for sale. These items get listed to the server and are searchable similar to WoW's AH, but instead of being given the option to buy the item it simply gives you a list of who is selling them, what the price is, and where the player is located. This would be conducive to face-to-face trading and would stimulate a player driven economy at the expense (to the selling player) of inventory space.

2) Interactive vendors. You can vendor any item to any vendor. This item will disappear and can appear on any vendor aligned to that particular vendor (FFXI examples: specific crafting guild vendors, spell vendors, goblin vendors, armor/clothing vendors, food vendors, etc). So in an FFXI example your mithkabob that you sold to a food vendor in Jeuno could appear at the inn in Windurst. These items, once sold to the NPC vendor will be sold on a supply vs. demand system based modified by a base price of the item (set in stone from game start, for example a scorpion harness could be 500Kgil or a silk thread 5Kgil) and the total amount of gil on the server (as the server's gil total increases these items will inflate in cost). If a stack of fire crystals is based on 1000 gil (player gets 75% of cost at sales time, or 750 gil at base) then as the unsold inventory increases the cost would go down. If there is a severe glut, the vendor might be selling them at 500 gil (and giving players 375 gil for their stacks of crystals). If there is a severe shortage, then they might go up to 2000 gil (giving the player 1500 gil). As the server ages and the amount of gil increases serverwide these prices would steadily increase, though the average purchasing power to each player would remain the same. On a fledgling server with low gil supplies, vendor items would be extremely cheap to accommodate the player's average purchasing power.

Example: if the average player has 100Kgil and wants a stack of fire crystals, the cost would be 1000 gil to buy them. Selling them would give 750 gil, or would increase your gil stash by a bit under 1%. If the average player has 200Kgil the cost would be 2000 gil, they would still make a bit under a 1% gil stash increase by selling their crystals this way.

What does this do to the beginning player coming to an established server? Since prices are inflated their goods would also be sold at a higher markup giving them the purchasing power to keep up. How does this affect a new player on a new server? Since there is scarcity of items and the gil pool of the server is low, costs from the vendors would be achievable from the outset.

The benefits of this system are huge. First and foremost it gives the server an automated gil sink of 25% of the value of any item sold in this fashion regardless of serverwide inflation keeping rampant inflation in check. Second, it incentivizes the player base to trade amongst themselves (i.e. I don't want to trade at 75% value so I will list it at 90% and hope someone hunts me down for the item risking that the stock on the vendors significantly increases before I can sell mine). Third, it gives players a "buy it now" experience where they can find items that they need at relatively standardized prices across the server (since as the items vendor they will spread among that category of vendors until there is a stock of them everywhere). Fourth, it encourages adventure and interaction with NPCs, since your very rare items can possibly appear on allied vendors in obscure areas (in FFXI these might be like the vendors in Rabao or at outposts, for example). This adds a bit of excitement to examining the wares of various vendors. Fifth, it helps us manage our inventories and removes the need for listing caps for auctions since we can just vendor at will (eating the penalty just like everyone else). Sixth, it kills off the undercut mentality since it would never be in a player's interests to try to sell an item under 75% of its market value because they can simply vendor it for that. Lastly, because of the distributed nature of such a system it would make it extremely difficult for an individual or small group of individuals to monopolize critical items (*ahem* RMT) enhancing the game experience for everyone assuming that the various factions of vendors are sufficiently spread out and each faction has a large enough quantity of them. Feasibly, a RMT group could camp all the vendors serverwide and buy everything up, but the cost from the vendors due to increasing rarity would become so staggering that it would break their banks and in the end nobody could buy the items for the costs that they'd have to demand to recoup their losses making the whole exercise worthless to them. The only way to monopolize such a system would be to monopolize the gathering of a particular item: smart game design can prevent much of this kind of nonsense.

Wouldn't it be lovely if the stuff you crafted and junked to a vendor could possibly be made useful by someone? There wouldn't be cut-and-dry crafting orders to maximize your cash return when crafting, as the cost based on supply and demand would cause "easy crafts" to become cheap very quickly while rarer ones would net greater rewards. As people jostle to find a current niche item to make the supplies of these items would steadily lower until the demand met the supply causing further shifts in the system. Eventually items would find equilibrium set at where the players demand through their wallets it be set.

One further way this system could be of benefit is to prevent mudflation of premium items (i.e scorpion harnesses becoming too common) by decaying items after sales. Any item of sufficient quantity unsold after a certain period of time could be removed from the game permanently. This means if the server has a cap of 1% of the population on scorpion harnesses and there are enough on the vendors for 3% to buy, then it will slowly destroy the excess until it reaches the cap point. This would allow the developers to stealthily add value to certain items or buff/nerf items without necessarily having to change the item itself: it would affect the rarity and cost of the item rather than its direct power. This helps get rid of excess gear on a server without having to resort to "bind on equip" mechanics.

I hope that made sense.
#47 Jan 11 2010 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
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Liked the AH system in FF11. Was easy and you got the item right away if you could afford it.
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#48 Jan 11 2010 at 9:12 PM Rating: Good
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I like the newer ideas floating around that move away from an auction-based system. Of course, there will be pros and cons to anything SE chooses for FFXIV, but I also like the idea of being able to sell to vendors. I hated that all NPCs in XI would only buy for a set price when the AH price was at least 10x that amount...

I do want the buy/sell system in XIV to be more balanced and not completely driven by the players in that we must buy/sell from them because NPCs are too spread out. Again, I did like the bazaars in XI, but the search options for specific items in Rolanberry was really hit or miss. Improved searching for bazaars is all I ask for with the new system.
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#49 Jan 11 2010 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
Quote:

I'm just guessing, but you haven't used this type system before have you?
The buy it now feature does not mean overpriced. It means "this is what I'll take right now for the item." The prices adjust to a market standard just like any other system.


The reason why they will take that price right now is because its usually overpriced or the seller absolutely needs the money at that time. For the most part the seller has no interest in selling stuff as quick as possible, the seller is more worried about making as much money as possible. There are times when sellers have tons of stuff to sell and they are just worried about selling it as fast as possible, but for the most part the seller wants the most money. Its about economics and common sense, the reason why you bid in the first place is to raise the price of an item (by many people bidding on it). If the buy now price isn't overpriced then there wouldn't be a point in bidding. When I say overpriced I don't mean way outrageously overpriced, I mean its overpriced enough that the bid would probably not get that high. Why would you as a seller, not make the buy now price high and just wait a day or two for people to bid on it so they can raise the price of it. Only reason you wouldn't overprice the buy now price would be if you needed the money fast or you had to sell the item fast.

What I'm saying is the "buy now" price will always be higher than the starting bid price. This usually results in the buy now price being overpriced, unless its a very very common item. People don't start the starting bid price low because then they would run the risk of people not bidding on it and it going for a low price.

Slightly overpriced or not, it still punishes the common buyer that wants the item instantly. As many times as you use the AH, slight overprices start to add up, just because you didn't have the time or the patience to wait days for a bid.

Edited, Jan 11th 2010 3:04pm by HocusP


Ok, I see where you are coming from. But you are forgetting about other sellers in competition. The reason why a person wouldn't set a "buy now" price "overpriced" is the fact that others are/will be competeing to sell their items too. This is where the undercutting wars come in and starts new argument. The point is, the "Market" (as in entire game economy) will not allow "buy now" to always be an over price.

The "buy now" will act as the standard price and will be regulated by the market supply and demand. Over pricing will come up on rare type items, but will only be overpriced as long as people refuse to buy it. The seller will incur losses by losing listing fees until their put the item up for auction at an accepted price.

Think of "buy now" as the same price as you would list an item in ffxi current system. Because that is all it ever will be (the price you're willing to sell the item at). The "Bid" is the new function that would be added to the system. The bid only is more for the gamblers that take a chance listing an item and hoping a bidding war drives prices up to an acceptable level; benefiting them with a profit and a smaller AH listing fee.

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