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be very very quiet..... I'm talking death penaltyFollow

#1 Jan 14 2010 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
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I know there have been a million threads and thoughts on this. But just for some lively discussion and forum movement while we eagerly await new info on this much anticipated game. I'd like to talk death penalties.

I'm in the camp that death should be avoided and feared at all costs. Therefore I would like to see some kind of tangible loss upon death.

I know EXP loss is frowned upon, and with an "EXP-less" system in place i think that would be a hard road to navigate.

HP/MP timed percentage penalties (rez sickness) are minimal but successive deaths would keep a player down and out for too long if timers weren't curable. On the flip side i believe that even a hefty financial cost to cure the player is too easy to overcome.

Equipment wear and tear. I think this is where we'll find FFXIVs death penalty.

Stick with me a minute. You fall in combat must have been an intense fight. you lose 10% of your armors durability. So to keep in ship shape you'll have to repair your gear.

Not only does this include the community since SE stated that crafter will be able to repair armor. These classes will be essential to the gameplay. I'm sure we'll have NPC blacksmiths that will charge for their services so we'll never to worry about finding a player to interact with. Finding a friend or linkshell mate thats skilled in armor repair will be invaluable!


-EDIT - (for after thoughts and format change)

Lets put a hard core spin on this, some examples of penalty effects:

1) Does the amount of durability translate into how well you'll preform as a character? So 10% reduction on your armor = 10% more damage taken

2) Maybe upon death a random piece of gear is damaged so it doesn't outright cripple your character for receiving just one death, but over the course of many deaths you'll start to under preform

3) Does your armor become less durable with normal use which could lead to dire times for repairs?

4) the less durability your gear has, the longer it takes to skill up.

I'd be ok with ideas 2 and 4, they seem fall into "i don't want death to happen but if it does at least i can keep playing" catagory

-end edit-



So I ask everyone what would your acceptable penalties be?

Edited, Jan 14th 2010 5:22am by SevenLittleChipmunks
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#2 Jan 14 2010 at 7:15 AM Rating: Decent
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For a minute I thought this thread was going to be a debate over lethal injection.
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#3 Jan 14 2010 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
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The Death Penalty well... gear reduction is possible but 10%? to all or one piece? depending on how important gear is made for defence (and if defence works properly) it could be well acceptable or too weak/strong.

But even if EXP penalty is gone i still think old XI players have been made more cautious by it and would probly die less because of it.
#4 Jan 14 2010 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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Linnaa wrote:
The Death Penalty well... gear reduction is possible but 10%? to all or one piece? depending on how important gear is made for defence (and if defence works properly) it could be well acceptable or too weak/strong.

But even if EXP penalty is gone i still think old XI players have been made more cautious by it and would probly die less because of it.


Numbers are just made up. I suppose i should have just said X%

This thread isn't just to comment on my ideas, but to present yours as well. I'm not looking for EXP lose debates but alternate acceptable forms to dissuade the player from death.
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#5 Jan 14 2010 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
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One quick thought.

It has been said that many of your character's abilities come from the armor that is worn. If a particular piece of armor is badly damaged, maybe the ability associated with that piece will become weaker. If damaged enough, there could be a chance your character looses the ability to use the associated ability all together until the armor is repaired.

There could be the possibility of spawn points, where when you die, you'll respawn at them. I doubt XIV will include this though just because everyone would complain I think haha...
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#6 Jan 14 2010 at 7:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Well i hate the idea of actual item loss but thats one thing they could do, or gil loss maybe, depending on how inventory works so those are pending options......

XP loss but no abilitie to de-lvl might be acceptable so instead of re-reaching the same level from repetive death you just have to start the current level over not much better but still better then getting weaker.
#7 Jan 14 2010 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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FFXI was fine IMO even if frustrating.... I prefer to lose exp than gil, exp is easier to win back than gil... and I assume it will be the same in 14. When I mean gil is the cost to repair my armor/weapon and what more frustrating than having to run back in town because after 3 deaths my armor absolutely need to be repaired to continue playing.



Edited, Jan 14th 2010 10:46am by MrBarjavel
#8 Jan 14 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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EXP loss was fine, if it stays... whatever.

The only thing that bothered me about it was leveling down(my god how it can ruin a party or a whole night) and the time it takes to get the exp back because of the incredibly slow leveling system. Gear degredation would be good too then you can probably camp your smith character in some area and wait for tells from local parties asking for gear repairs.

10% is steep, 5% would be better... but really if it didn't take me 100+ IT mobs to level up, i would never complain. The leveling system was just brutally slow to the point that i would pick a job, make precise macro's and just not pay attention during battles.
#9 Jan 14 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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If its a weak death penalty its gonna inspire me to goof off a lot.

Armor degradation? Simply die naked
#10 Jan 14 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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What would you learn from losing 10% of your XP and possibly leveling down that you couldn't learn from having to simply ghost walk back to your corpse?

Furthermore, to whom should the responsibility of teaching the player how to play and what not to do go? The developer, or the player?

Lastly, would you rather be smacked in the back of the head every time you make a mistake, or simply be tut-tutted, and let the shame of failure be the lesson?

Also, I refuse to be bloody obvious to the analogy I am making. Figure it out, or don't.
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#11 Jan 14 2010 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I too hope its something that makes the players take notice of dieing. If not then I will just goof around and wouldn't care if I died or not, which in return would take a lot of the excitement right out of the game. I'm not in favor of just a gil lost because it would be exactly the same as having no penalty if you were rich. Also gear degrading doesn't strike me as a penalty at all, people will just bring a crafter with them so if they died they could repair stuff on the spot. With the crafting classes actually being real classes in this game, I see it very logical that linkshells will just bring 1 character to every event that can repair everybody's gear if need be. This in return wouldn't be much of a penalty at all.

As for a penalty, I can't really think of a good one, but I do know that there is a need for one. I also know that SE will come up with something, because thats how they operate. Maybe taking a percentage of your skill points (weapon skill level), which in return acts like exp, because I predict that certain armor will have certain skill level requirements in order to wear. Armor degrade will probably be an added penalty as well, but I just see armor degrade as too easy to get around, and too weak of a standalone penalty. Especially when players can repair gear, it wouldn't even be much of a penalty at all.
#12 Jan 14 2010 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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I didn't mind EXP loss as much as I disliked deleveling.

Armor duration or EXP, I don't mind either way.


Inb4 Kachi :V

Edited, Jan 14th 2010 9:06am by Kirbster
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#13 Jan 14 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If its a weak death penalty its gonna inspire me to goof off a lot.

Armor degradation? Simply die naked


It is a game, so I don't think thats really a bad thing.
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#14 Jan 14 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Default
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I have played several games that did not have a standard "level" system. Instead players received skill points to allocate towards abilities and skills. If FFXIV is anything like this, death penalties will probably take the form of rank loss to random skills (Eeeeeekkkkkk!!!!) or stats. These could be temporary or permanent based upon how sadistic SE wants to be. :)
#15 Jan 14 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Westyle wrote:
If its a weak death penalty its gonna inspire me to goof off a lot.

Armor degradation? Simply die naked


That is a viable option. Players would change to a lv 1 character in FFXI and die to home point if they were far out.

But in the heat of battle maybe you don't have time to change out to naked, or maybe SE won't let you change mid-fight (they haven't decided if changing weapon mid-fight will be allowed maybe same goes for armor)
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#16 Jan 14 2010 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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EXP (skill?) loss is fine. In XI it was an inconvienence while leveling your job, but it served it's purpose. Everyone works together, or people will die and your work will be wasted. At 75 I cap my buffer and can die dozens of times with r1 even before I'll delevel, and what does it take to get it back? 2 hours in merits, I can live with that.
The larger penalty was unavoidable 5 minute weakness which equates to uselessness, or certain redeath in many situations. in endgame if a critical player dies at an unfortunate moment, it can easily cascade to a wipe/lost fight. My only motivation not to die in XI is that my MP is cut in half, and I have to take upwards of 45 seconds to get reraise/refresh/stoneskin/blink/cures on me before I'm going again, and then my recast timers are hilariously long.

The real death penalty in XI is weakness. I hate it, but it does serve a purpose.

As for what it will look like in XIV, armor degradation seems likely. It doesn't seem logical that one would lose their skill with a weapon by dying (not that that has ever stopped game designers before) and they have put a big emphasis on item degradation and repair in interviews so far. My big curiousity is if and in what form weakness will return. Any other penalties don't have a drastic effect on the CURRENT flow of play upon standing back up, but weakness does.
#17 Jan 14 2010 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Make it easier to get back to where you were when you died; Increase reraise options and availability. Get rid of level-down. Keep everything else the same.
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#18 Jan 14 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Default
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If its gil loss it could be a percentage of how much you're worth. In practice, if you were worth in the vicinity of 10,000 gil and say when you died you lose 10% of gil you own, you would lose 1000 gil -- whereas if you were worth a million gil you would lose a 100,000 gil. This would make the rich people a lot more careful as well. Of course, 10% may be too much a penalty, but i'm just giving an example.
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#19 Jan 14 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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People would just put all their gil on their mules. :P

Edited, Jan 14th 2010 2:02pm by Threx
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#20 Jan 14 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Minor durability loss is understandable, but direct gil loss? lol
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#21 Jan 14 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Death penalties beyond weakened state and/or needing raise have always seemed overly penal. Making people become cautious ninnies in a game isn't terribly fun IMO. I'm not sure where anyone sees an advantage to this pointless time sink.

Think about how many times SE's overly penal death structure has ****** you off and think about how many times you were thankful for them. Especially given SE's propensity to put you in situations where death is inevitable.

Most of the time I don't want to die because either a) I don't want to HP and lose progress or b) I don't want to be in a weakened state for 5 min in a time sensitive battle or during a fast-paced xp party. The xp penalty is insult to injury. In fact if you every job reraise and eliminated the weakened state, leaving only xp penalties, I'd guarantee everyone wold be far more reckless. You'd zerg every fight and just keep popping up fully healed and reraised and carry on. Go get your xp back later.

So I hope SE just keeps raise and weakness but eliminates the rest of the disadvantages to dying
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#22 Jan 14 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Death penalties beyond weakened state and/or needing raise have always seemed overly penal. Making people become cautious ninnies in a game isn't terribly fun IMO.


I wonder about that...

Quite honestly, if you were not innovative in FFXI b/c you were afraid of death, it's more than likely you are not the type of player that would be the first to discover new strategies in a game even if there was no death penalty.

You might call me masochistic because I prefer a harder game with harder penalties, but the term is all too often incorrectly applied.

I really don't like dying, and I really don't enjoy merit PTs to cap my XP again.

The thing is I rarely die in FFXI, in almost any situation. I go prepared and am versatile enough to avoid death most of the time. Towards the end of my FFXI career, in a given week, I might die once, sometimes not at all.

To me, the game is truly awarding skill and penalizing lack of skill, b/c I was able to gather more items and advance my character while less skilled players were dying and had to go back to meripo PTs.

What you (and many others) are asking for is an easy game, being as most players are very casual. Several people have phrased your stance eloquently but the bottom line is that it evens the playing field between skilled and lesser-skilled players.

Ironically, the very same people who want lower death penalties will also advocate for a game where they want skill to be more important than repetition, and complained that FFXI was more about repetition than skill. To me it couldn't be further from the truth. If you were skilled in FFXI, you could take 3 people and kill Gods, solo NMs for money, and get your items quickly, while an army of 40 LS members would need to repeat that content again and again to get the same items. FFXI certainly rewarded skill, and was only a timesink if you relied too much on the skills of others to carry you.

I do not think there is a right and wrong viewpoint, but I certainly have a different viewpoint than you. What you see as a pointless time sink because of lost XP, I see as simply a challenge to avoid that time sink by being a better player than the next person.

Isn't that just a different way of looking at the same situation?

Edited, Jan 14th 2010 4:20pm by odinpingpong
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#23 Jan 14 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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Keep the old system in place, it worked and it was fine.
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#24 Jan 14 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I wonder about that...

Quite honestly, if you were not innovative in FFXI b/c you were afraid of death, it's more than likely you are not the type of player that would be the first to discover new strategies in a game even if there was no death penalty.

You might call me masochistic because I prefer a harder game with harder penalties, but the term is all too often incorrectly applied.

I really don't like dying, and I really don't enjoy merit PTs to cap my XP again.

The thing is I rarely die in FFXI, in almost any situation. I go prepared and am versatile enough to avoid death most of the time. Towards the end of my FFXI career, in a given week, I might die once, sometimes not at all.

To me, the game is truly awarding skill and penalizing lack of skill, b/c I was able to gather more items and advance my character while less skilled players were dying and had to go back to meripo PTs.

What you (and many others) are asking for is an easy game, being as most players are very casual. Several people have phrased your stance eloquently but the bottom line is that it evens the playing field between skilled and lesser-skilled players.

Ironically, the very same people who want lower death penalties will also advocate for a game where they want skill to be more important than repetition, and complained that FFXI was more about repetition than skill. To me it couldn't be further from the truth. If you were skilled in FFXI, you could take 3 people and kill Gods, solo NMs for money, and get your items quickly, while an army of 40 LS members would need to repeat that content again and again to get the same items. FFXI certainly rewarded skill, and was only a timesink if you relied too much on the skills of others to carry you.

I do not think there is a right and wrong viewpoint, but I certainly have a different viewpoint than you. What you see as a pointless time sink because of lost XP, I see as simply a challenge to avoid that time sink by being a better player than the next person.

Isn't that just a different way of looking at the same situation?


I totally agree, I was a blm (novio earring etc, also had war,sch,smn,brd), and I still rarely died. I also was in a small tight knit ls that killed about everything in the game (minus AV and Odin) many times, and everybody was decked out. There was an advantage of having skill to kill stuff with small numbers, rather then have to repeat the same stuff 100 times because you have 50 members needing items. Also zipped through new content as soon as it was added and explored very easily.

The death penalty didn't stop you from exploring at all, it was basically an excuse. You had to explore in a smarter way, rather then just run around like a chicken with its head cut off. You had to be prepared and actually think about stuff, which to me isn't a bad thing at all. Its a reason why sneak and prism oils and reraise is in the game, use them. Its a reason why abilities like flee, stun, sleep, warp, bind, are in the game, use them and zone. I mean there was various ways you could explore successfully on many jobs it just took a little skill and planning just incase something bad happens.
#25 Jan 14 2010 at 4:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've always wanted death to be a mini-zone.

Whenever you die you end up on the Final Fantasy version of the river Styx. If you can afford to pay Charon you may return to your body with some minor penalty (I would like to see you revive in a random location a 30 second walk away from your corpse). If you cannot pay Charon you are returned to the nearest temple that could be as far away as several zones. Perhaps then the temple sticks you with a Guildeve (or whatever it is called) that fluffs out the story (i.e. collect something for the temple, defeat a foe of the temple, whatever).

Charon's tax could increase based on the number of times you've died in an hour as well and could be an excellent money sink. You will probably still have revives of some sort so party members with such abilities would still be able to revive you without penalty on the spot.





Edited, Jan 14th 2010 3:35pm by baelnic
#26 Jan 14 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Warne wrote:
What would you learn from losing 10% of your XP and possibly leveling down that you couldn't learn from having to simply ghost walk back to your corpse?

Furthermore, to whom should the responsibility of teaching the player how to play and what not to do go? The developer, or the player?

Lastly, would you rather be smacked in the back of the head every time you make a mistake, or simply be tut-tutted, and let the shame of failure be the lesson?

Also, I refuse to be bloody obvious to the analogy I am making. Figure it out, or don't.


This quote made me laugh. I can attest to the fact that simply "tut-tutting" someone or waggling your finger does not encourage learning. I have relatives whose parents raised them that way, and they simply laugh it off while continuing to make the same mistakes.

That's what you get in an MMO with no death penalty. A game where people laugh off failure and continue to throw themselves at the enemy with little regard for safety, challenge, or strategy. FFXI's penalty was already relatively weak compared to the games that came before it. I don't see any need to change the level of risk involved.
#27 Jan 14 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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I am afraid I have to side with the more hardcore approach too. However, that does not mean that I can't see how some of the penalties were as annoying as they were challenging. I took this more often than not as a challenge to overcome, than an annoying frustration I could do nothing about.

I say keep some of that challenging death penalty without some of the more annoying aspects such as deleveling. How about a minimal armor/weapon durability penalty per death coupled with a stackable weakness factor. For example: 1 death = 5 min weakness with a minimal percentage loss on your stats (not level or exp), but this could compound to say a maximum of 1 hour of weakness with a 50% loss on your stats. I think this could provide an appropriate amount of penalty that starts slow but steps up very quickly. This way, if it is just a simple mistake or something beyond your control, then there would be a certain level of forgiveness. However, if you are taking risks that you can't handle or taking actions foolishly or just have poor skills (particularly on a fast and repeating basis, like 10 deaths in a row), then yes the punishment will be a bit severe. On the other hand, if you can't learn a lesson or develop better skills or strategy after 10 deaths, then I would not have much sympathy for you.

I think this could work well not only for "level" progression but also for endgame activities. If you have a timed instance battle that lasts an hour, the more deaths you receive the less viable you become and the more likely you or your group will loose the battle. This would effectively reward skill and strategy, and force players that are not up to the task to rethink strategy and improve their skills. A couple of deaths durring such an encounter won't make or break the battle, but if every group member reaches max weakness penalty before the battle ends..... Is it not fair that they loose?

Anyways, this is all just my thoughts on the matter. Whether you agree or not, it shouldn't be an issue because SE hasn't asked me to design the death penalty system. So it will be what it will be. Good thread though.
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#28 Jan 14 2010 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Calispel wrote:

This quote made me laugh. I can attest to the fact that simply "tut-tutting" someone or waggling your finger does not encourage learning. I have relatives whose parents raised them that way, and they simply laugh it off while continuing to make the same mistakes.

That's what you get in an MMO with no death penalty. A game where people laugh off failure and continue to throw themselves at the enemy with little regard for safety, challenge, or strategy. FFXI's penalty was already relatively weak compared to the games that came before it. I don't see any need to change the level of risk involved.


So, all you supposedly "hardcore" people would never achieve any skill or success if you didn't have an XP penalty? You would never learn anything on your own without being punished first?
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#29 Jan 14 2010 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm a pretty strong supporter of a stiff penalty for death. Dying should be something you try your damnedest to avoid, not a par-for-the-course hiccup that you easily accept and quickly move on from.

What I'd like to see is something like this:

When you die, you are presented with two choices: Homepoint or auto-rez. If you choose to HP, you are returned to wherever your HP is with no penalty (this is also the default choice after 10 minutes or so). If you choose to auto-rez, you're given a simple mini-game of sorts that, depending on your performance in it, determines how long it takes before you can auto-rez. Maybe a minute for a total failure to 10 seconds for a perfect success. Have the game be executed client-side to avoid any issues with lag.

When you revive you are in a weakened state for a set length of time. 5 or 10 minutes would work. While weakened, you suffer a handful of penalties: Reduced movement speed, reduced combat effectiveness (accuracy, damage, avoidance, HP/MP), etc. These penalties start out fairly severe, but degrade rather quickly (maybe 50% for the first minute, 25% for the second, and tapering down to 5-10% for the remaining time). The basic idea is to prevent you from jumping right back up and trying again, but not create a big, uninterrupted block of wasted time where you go AFK for a **** break and some coffee. Provided you (and your group, if applicable) are careful, you should be able to continue playing while in the tail-end of a weakened state.

Spells that resurrect your character could either skip certain phases of the weakened state, speed them up, or avoid them altogether (probably dependent on the strength of the spell; R1 would do a **** of a lot less than RIII). Obviously, no mini-game if you're being brought back up through the force of someone else's will.

Also, I'd like to see these penalties be more than just mechanical in nature. Reduce the color saturation while weakened; add some vignetting or a border effect (LotRO has an excellent example of this; so does the Realistic Health mod for Oblivion). Also, I'd like to see your character animations change if you're weakened. You should move like you're injured, not just in slow motion. Attack animations would appear more ragged; you'd hobble when you move, etc. Sure, this stuff is just fluff, but it'd add a lot of depth to the experience, and make dying feel more like an in-character thing than just another mechanical penalty.

===

What I don't want to see is an arbitrary, unrelated-to-dying penalty. XP or monetary loss, additional gear damage on top of whatever wear-and-tear you experienced on the way to death, etc. don't enhance a game; they distract from it. The penalty for death, whatever it is, should add to the immersion and the cohesiveness of the world. Also, I don't want to see a system like LotRO's cowering. In that game, if you have heavy Dread (which happens for multiple reasons; bosses, certain zones, dying, etc. all add Dread), your character will cower and you will lose all control (even movement) for a few seconds. Think Paralyze from FFXI, but more frequent and longer-lasting when it happens. While I'm sure it looked neat on paper, in practice it's merely frustrating, and leads to a lot of, "What the ****? My character defeated a balrog and some pantywaist orc is making me wet my pants? Bull****.". Again, that kind of stuff pulls you right out of the game.

Edited, Jan 14th 2010 7:24pm by CapnCrass
#30 Jan 14 2010 at 6:31 PM Rating: Decent
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SolidMack wrote:

If its gil loss it could be a percentage of how much you're worth. In practice, if you were worth in the vicinity of 10,000 gil and say when you died you lose 10% of gil you own, you would lose 1000 gil -- whereas if you were worth a million gil you would lose a 100,000 gil. This would make the rich people a lot more careful as well. Of course, 10% may be too much a penalty, but i'm just giving an example.


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Mage: no I dont want it, I wouldnt be able to afford to repair it if it breaks...
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#31 Jan 14 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Harsh death penalties only discourage people from actually helping with difficult task and will not make people play better or stop dying. There should always be a medium that is fair to Hardcore and casual fans alike since you can't please everyone btw we all are paying for the game even thou we may play for different reasons. I would propose a death system that apply penalties according to the task at hand.

Example
1) Basic aggro death would send you to a starter hub no death penalty.
2) NM fight upon death would send you to a started hub and you would incur armor/weapon damage.
3) Boss or HNM fight give weakness to prevent boss zergs.

This could be done in many different forms and would appeal to many different gamers.

Edited, Jan 14th 2010 7:56pm by Juudah
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#32 Jan 14 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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What you (and many others) are asking for is an easy game, being as most players are very casual. Several people have phrased your stance eloquently but the bottom line is that it evens the playing field between skilled and lesser-skilled players.


Assuming that people who want a death penalty less on the harsh side also want the game to be easy isn't necessarily true. You CAN make a game difficult, while having a weaker penalty.

For everyone talking about skill, in any game I've played, whether it be console, pc, mmo, etc, death penalties have never influenced my skill. If I die fighting a mob, figure out the best way to beat him my next attempt, and I beat him, what I learned wouldn't have changed whether the penalty was weak or not.

I do think there needs to be a penalty, but slightly weaker than what FFXI used(looking at you, deleveling).
#33 Jan 14 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
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Jubs wrote:
Quote:
What you (and many others) are asking for is an easy game, being as most players are very casual. Several people have phrased your stance eloquently but the bottom line is that it evens the playing field between skilled and lesser-skilled players.


Assuming that people who want a death penalty less on the harsh side also want the game to be easy isn't necessarily true. You CAN make a game difficult, while having a weaker penalty.

For everyone talking about skill, in any game I've played, whether it be console, pc, mmo, etc, death penalties have never influenced my skill. If I die fighting a mob, figure out the best way to beat him my next attempt, and I beat him, what I learned wouldn't have changed whether the penalty was weak or not.

I do think there needs to be a penalty, but slightly weaker than what FFXI used(looking at you, deleveling).


If I asked you to make a simple basketball layup, $5 if it goes in, lose $5 if you miss, it might seem easy.

If I asked you to make a layup, $5 if it goes in, but lose $100 if you miss as the penalty, that layup just got a whole lot harder.

I did not change the encounter, but I have increased the difficulty by adding pressure. That added pressure serves as a huge distraction, and an obstacle that must be overcome mentally to avoid panic and choking, thus creating a heightened rush of adrenaline. You must now overcome not only the task at hand, but yourself as well.

PS - I specifically stated that I do not think people who want a lesser death penalty want an easy game, but simply pointed out the irony of wanting a more difficult game and having a lesser death penalty.

Edited, Jan 14th 2010 10:02pm by odinpingpong
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#34 Jan 14 2010 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
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There are plenty of rational reasons to want a stiff penalty, but this education angle is just silly.
It's the developer's job to teach you how to play the game, not attempt to exorcise the careless stupidity of the general public.

Also; Won't we be spared de-leveling on the basis there aren't any levels?
I suppose we might lose accumulated skill points, but I don't think we'll be seeing that. Progression isn't linear, as the classes are malleable enough to make caster-melee hybrids, so how do you go "backwards" exactly? Squeenix did go to all this effort to make a durability system. I think it makes more sense to piggy-back a creative penalty through that try to fit this EXPLoss square-peg in the Levelless round-hole.




Edited, Jan 14th 2010 11:35pm by Zemzelette
#35 Jan 14 2010 at 10:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure what goes through anyone else's heads when they die, but it isn't, "Oh no, I just lost XP and/or durability." for me. It's, "Wow, I failed bad. What went wrong, and what do I need to do better?"

You try not to die and avoid dying because dying is bad. It's dying. It's not a happy thing. You died. That means something went wrong, or your failed to do something right.

You don't need the Grim XP Reaper to come by and smack you upside the head, because you obviously didn't know the meaning of Dead, and that dying is bad. These things are logical to logical human beings, and should be avoided in real life and digital incarnations because dying is bad.

At some point, the mind connects that dying is to be avoided, without the aid of a penalty. I dunno, that's just me. I avoid dying because I don't like to die. You might enjoy dying. ****, sometimes I like dying in fun ways, so I can maybe understand the masochistic tendencies in small rations, but at the end of the day, dying is still not the object of a game in which you have a health bar that should stay to the right, instead of to the left and empty.
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#36 Jan 14 2010 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
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I hated dying because it took me forever to find an XP party
#37 Jan 14 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Warne wrote:
You try not to die and avoid dying because dying is bad. It's dying. It's not a happy thing. You died. That means something went wrong, or your failed to do something right.


Here's the thing, though (at least for me): LotRO had a laughably weak death penalty. Mild gear degradation and 10 minutes of slightly (10% tops) reduced combat effectiveness. Until it was changed so the room locked behind your group when you entered, a viable (albeit not very efficient) strategy for one particular boss was to have everyone run in and fight until they died, rez back at the entrance, and run back in over and over until the boss eventually went down. There was a video floating around of a full raid of people punching a 50k HP boss to death for 1 HP a pop (all their weapons and armor were broken). Took like a half an hour. Sure, it was funny as **** (kinda like a Three Stooges act; the video was in mega-fast-forward), but I do not want to see a system that encourages those kind of cheeseball antics in FFXIV.

No, I can't remember which boss. No, I don't have a link to the video. You're welcome to not believe me if you so choose.
#38 Jan 15 2010 at 3:34 AM Rating: Decent
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If I asked you to make a simple basketball layup, $5 if it goes in, lose $5 if you miss, it might seem easy.

If I asked you to make a layup, $5 if it goes in, but lose $100 if you miss as the penalty, that layup just got a whole lot harder.

I did not change the encounter, but I have increased the difficulty by adding pressure. That added pressure serves as a huge distraction, and an obstacle that must be overcome mentally to avoid panic and choking, thus creating a heightened rush of adrenaline. You must now overcome not only the task at hand, but yourself as well.

PS - I specifically stated that I do not think people who want a lesser death penalty want an easy game, but simply pointed out the irony of wanting a more difficult game and having a lesser death penalty.


The "added pressure" of a harsher penalty may not even exist for some people. I, for one, didn't let the penalty in FFXI effect how I went about an encounter. I was always prepared for a worst case scenario(death), and always did what I could to avoid dying. I didn't let it add pressure, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who acts that way.

A game company shouldn't have to use a death penalty to make content harder. If Boss A has a special attack that deals XXX damage, but turns out to be on the easy side, they could add a Defense Down and Damage Over Time debuffs on the special attack. See? I just made the encounter harder without changing the death penalty.

The pressure and adrenaline from an encounter needs to come from the fact that this giant dragon you're about to attack with pointy sticks is perfectly capable of smashing my face in, regardless of whether or not I have to wait 10 extra minutes or lose XP.

(Rating you up for good discussion!)

I really do hope they implement a death penalty, so long as it's fair for THIS game. I don't think they'll be able to copy/paste from FFXI, simply due to how leveling is going to work. A durability hit, either through death or simply use, will most likely put in, with something else on the side. Weakness, maybe?
#39 Jan 15 2010 at 4:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Jubs wrote:
Quote:
If I asked you to make a simple basketball layup, $5 if it goes in, lose $5 if you miss, it might seem easy.

If I asked you to make a layup, $5 if it goes in, but lose $100 if you miss as the penalty, that layup just got a whole lot harder.

I did not change the encounter, but I have increased the difficulty by adding pressure. That added pressure serves as a huge distraction, and an obstacle that must be overcome mentally to avoid panic and choking, thus creating a heightened rush of adrenaline. You must now overcome not only the task at hand, but yourself as well.

PS - I specifically stated that I do not think people who want a lesser death penalty want an easy game, but simply pointed out the irony of wanting a more difficult game and having a lesser death penalty.


The "added pressure" of a harsher penalty may not even exist for some people. I, for one, didn't let the penalty in FFXI effect how I went about an encounter. I was always prepared for a worst case scenario(death), and always did what I could to avoid dying. I didn't let it add pressure, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who acts that way.

A game company shouldn't have to use a death penalty to make content harder. If Boss A has a special attack that deals XXX damage, but turns out to be on the easy side, they could add a Defense Down and Damage Over Time debuffs on the special attack. See? I just made the encounter harder without changing the death penalty.

The pressure and adrenaline from an encounter needs to come from the fact that this giant dragon you're about to attack with pointy sticks is perfectly capable of smashing my face in, regardless of whether or not I have to wait 10 extra minutes or lose XP.

(Rating you up for good discussion!)

I really do hope they implement a death penalty, so long as it's fair for THIS game. I don't think they'll be able to copy/paste from FFXI, simply due to how leveling is going to work. A durability hit, either through death or simply use, will most likely put in, with something else on the side. Weakness, maybe?


I get the giant dragon being a rush of andrenaline, but I got that rush just doing regular EXP mobs when 2 or more mobs linked. It makes even the most basic encounters a big deal and more rewarding. Trying to fight yourself out of a 4 mob link in Uleguland range level 72 party b/c you don't want the XP loss and travel up the mountain again is exhilarating. If I could just restart at the exact same point without much penalty I'd just fall on my face and wait for a wipe, then proceed to pull 1 by 1.

The other thing about XP loss is that it literally limits your attempts on most fights. If I had no XP loss, I could conceivably attempt the same fight 20 times. With XP loss, I could only afford to die 5 times, thus giving me less chances to find a solution. I find that challenge more rewarding.

I definitely see all your points and it all makes sense. Just introducing other scenarios as well.
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#40 Jan 15 2010 at 4:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Inb4 Kachi :V


Actually, I was thinking I'd just skip it since I already said so much on the subject in the other thread, and I hate having to repeat the same things to a marginally different crowd. But what's this? I think there's a quote front coming in from the west! Bundle up and stock as many page down buttons as you can to weather this storm! Quoteorologists are predicting 12 inches of tl;dr!

That was dumb. I'm sorry.

Quote:
If you design your game either artfully or with a whole ten brain cells, you can make death scary without relying on an xp loss. In fact, the worst thing you can do is make the playerbase too afraid of dying to attempt the content you've created for them. In an adequately challenging game, you should expect to die a lot, which goes very badly with being penalized for dying.

As a personal anecdote, I best and most fondly remember defeating the bosses that killed me 20+ times before I beat them. All of them I could just retry from right where they killed me with only a minute or so inbetween. This minimal half a minute penalty didn't make me want to die less. It made me keep trying to win, like I wanted to, rather than discouraging me with a runaround every time I just wanted to FIGHT THE **** BOSS AGAIN LEMME AT'EM. As I've said many times before, if your idea of a good gameplay element is being heavily penalized for dying, vow to slam your nuts in a door every time you die. It will take scary to a whole new level.

The whole "death should be awful" theories is one of many "suspension of disbelief and therefor realism are good" theories that has not stood up to the empiricism of throwing humans with all their psychologies at various games. People like the idea in theory, but they don't enjoy it in practice. Watching your character die, and then having to start over, sucks, with or without xp loss. XP loss is salt in the wound.

Of course in an online environment where you can revive players midbattle, there have to be some limitations, but in general these are very doable without heavy penalties.


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There are exceptions to every rule, and I am speaking in terms of mass appeal, i.e., "normal" psychology. Compulsive disorders for example-- and masochism in particular is a phenomenon that throws a wrench in otherwise good psychological practices, but it's also a pretty awful business model to aim for the niche ********* demographic, at least I would think.


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I'm not sure to what extent death penalties can add merit. I do think that there are happy mediums, and that FFXI exceeds those mediums. I also think that in a truly challenging game, it's enough to lose a few or even many, many times without having any penalty other than the immediate frustration and wasted time from your loss. If you lose a five minute battle twenty times between halfway through and near the end of the battle with a minute inbetween attempts, then you've just spent over an hour attempting a battle that's supposed to take five minutes.

Now, the conventional thinking here tends to be that you won't get that blood-pumping heart-racing feeling if you're dying that often, but YOU WILL. Maybe more, maybe less, but every time you get close to victory (rather than close to death), you'll get that feeling of anticipation. Whether it's fear of dying, or fear of not winning this time, you'll get that feeling. I make no promise that it would be exactly the same, as I can imagine that a gambler is going to experience that feeling much more when he places a big bet, but he'll also feel a lot worse when he loses.

So I don't pretend to know what merit death penalties will add in addition to the inherent penalties of death. I mean, we're talking about "retrying" as if it's the absolute bottom, when it's not. A death penalty could be that you get less of a reward, or that the game gives you a silver star instead of gold. However, I do accept that there are moderate death penalties that at least don't substantially hinder the enjoyment of a game.


I'm going to kindly offer a grandfather clause protecting all of those who were:
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Inb4 Kachi :V

I'm going to refrain from replying to them, and assume that I just addressed everything I would have said to them with the above (har). Unless, of course, they want me to.
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#41 Jan 15 2010 at 4:36 AM Rating: Decent
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#42 Jan 15 2010 at 5:23 AM Rating: Decent
It would be nice if they introduced a spell that is kind of the opposite of Warp II. Rather than sending someone to their home point, you can warp them to you from their home point. Do this, and make level down go away, and they can have their XP loss penalty.
#43 Jan 15 2010 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
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The reverse warp ("Summon Ally" or "Call Ally" ability) would be nice, but it would have to have limitations on it, though, such as having a long cooldown timer, being able to summon only people in your party, and/or only if they're in the same zone or region.

Having 1 Blm travel all the way to a place like Uleguerand Range and summoning the whole LS to fight Jorm is kinda...meh. It would also encourage zombieing strategies. Player dies, he HPs (to not get death penalty), gets immediately summoned back, attacks HNM, dies again, and repeat.

With certain limitations, it would be a lovely spell/ability that would eliminate many tedious, time-consuming situations. However, SE doesn't want that. They want us to spend as much time as possible for everything. :P
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#44 Jan 15 2010 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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I really can't imagine anyone has been in the middle of a hard to get to, hard to kill fight and then wiped and said "Man, its a good thing we lost all that exp and now have to travel all the way back here and start over". There's a million other ways to make the game challenging and exciting without kicking you in the nuts when you die.

First and foremost this is a game and it should be fun. In FFXI when you die you're out of action for what, 5 min at minimum. That's an eternity when you're in a big fight. I don't care who you are, it's always more fun to be fighting the boss than sitting on the sidelines in a weakened state just watching. This is a game and I want to get back to the killing as fast as I can.

I'm not saying there should be no penalty for death, just not one that discourages exploration, and experimentation and most importantly FUN.
#45 Jan 15 2010 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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You try not to die and avoid dying because dying is bad. It's dying. It's not a happy thing. You died. That means something went wrong, or your failed to do something right.

You don't need the Grim XP Reaper to come by and smack you upside the head, because you obviously didn't know the meaning of Dead, and that dying is bad. These things are logical to logical human beings, and should be avoided in real life and digital incarnations because dying is bad.


Dying is bad when it means you cease to be, and don't come back. If the game had zero penalty for death, there would be nothing bad about dying. If, when you die, pressing any key makes you stand back up with full health, at full capability, and with every possession just as you left it, all that happened is you fell down.

Video games NEED a penalty for death because without one it ISN'T bad because you can just try again.
Dying in a video game, especially in todays games, where most games are about mercilessly slaughtering "bad guys" death doesn't mean much unless it has a direct and immediate effect on gameplay.


Contrast the "death means you fall down for a second and then are magically healed" scenario with a "realistic" scenario.

You are out and about, exping on your character, and a high level demon wanders over and eats you for a snack. "Aw shucks" you think to yourself, and wait to come back to life/go to your homepoint/whathaveyou. But instead, you're presented with the character creation screen.

You died.

You have to start over, because your character is dead, that's what dead means.


suddenly the game got a whole lot harder did it not?


Death penalty does in fact change the subjective difficulty of a game. But, this is only a single factor among many that factors into game design. There could be a game with a "zero penalty" that is still very difficult because the rest of the game designed kept that in mind. There could be a game that is so dumbed down, that a "realistic" penalty game is still easy. Where it's only possible to die if you round up all the strongest monsters in the game and afk for 20 minutes.

both of these cases are very extreme, clearly, But they serve as a reminder of the continuum that exists. The penalty needs to be appropriate for the game being played.

The penalty should be heavy enough to discourage reckless behavior, and plain stupid boss/battle strategy, but shouldn't be so bad that you lose an hour of effort for a mistake that, in a game like FFXI, probably wasn't even your fault.

That is another major point to consider. If FFXIV will rely on teamwork to any degree similar to FFXI, in my experience, while leveling up, most of the time deaths were not my fault at all, yet I still get penalized. Is this fair? Tricky question.
it encourages teamwork, when it works. It promotes an feeling that others rely on you to play well to keep them alive, and in turn stay alive yourself.
If you care about their thoughts/feelings, you won't want them to die, especially because of something you did. It promotes finding people you like playing with, and who are good players.
Conversely, it discourages playing with new/inexperienced players (I'll never party in the dunes again etc), it feels unfair when you are punished for another person's mistake, especially if you don't even know them, and can detract from teamwork when people are unwilling to risk their neck to go with you.



So, there's some more of my thoughts. Doesn't relate to what the death penalty should/should not be in FFXIV exactly, but i think it shows the effect it can have on the game.

edit:
Quote:

I'm not saying there should be no penalty for death, just not one that discourages exploration, and experimentation and most importantly FUN.

good point, but I know on more than one occasion I've been in a difficult fight, everyone is barely clinging to life and time is running out, people are dying. People are raising, frantically getting up and attempting desprately to nock those last few hp off the boss before time runs out, even while weakened, risking an very quick and painful redeath if unsucessful.
This to me is fun, and incorporates a penalty in it. It's possible to make the penalty part of the fun. Or maybe I'm alone in that opinion, I don't know.

Edited, Jan 15th 2010 7:28pm by Xeurb
#46 Jan 15 2010 at 7:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Xeurb wrote:
more than one occasion I've been in a difficult fight, everyone is barely clinging to life and time is running out, people are dying. People are raising, frantically getting up and attempting desprately to nock those last few hp off the boss before time runs out, even while weakened, risking an very quick and painful redeath if unsucessful.
This to me is fun, and incorporates a penalty in it. It's possible to make the penalty part of the fun. Or maybe I'm alone in that opinion, I don't know.

Edited, Jan 15th 2010 7:28pm by Xeurb


amen. I thought FFXI's system was pretty good in how badly we got penalized, but I guess others don't see it that way.
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#47 Jan 15 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Good
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I think repairing your equipment is a good penalty. Death hits you where it hurts, the wallet/purse. Losing XP punishes you for spending time with the game.. period. That is not a positive experience at all. Now, one may argue that losing money is much the same, but there are many ways to make money in a well designed MMO. Getting XP, on the other hand, simply means doing more of the same that you've been doing to simply get somewhere.
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#48 Jan 15 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Lefein wrote:
I think repairing your equipment is a good penalty. Death hits you where it hurts, the wallet/purse. Losing XP punishes you for spending time with the game.. period. That is not a positive experience at all. Now, one may argue that losing money is much the same, but there are many ways to make money in a well designed MMO. Getting XP, on the other hand, simply means doing more of the same that you've been doing to simply get somewhere.


It doesn't have to necessarily come out of your wallet in the end. Maybe someone in your LS is a smith and can repair for free, or you take up smithing yourself. So repairs are free in theory.
For armor degradation to matter, some negative side effect needs to come of it. Either impaired performance or impaired skill up rate. This would lead people avoid death.
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#49 Jan 16 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Impaired performance is the only logical penalty I can see happening here, on top of dents in armour from taking all those hits that killed you. Weakness was the realistic way XI went about this, while EXP loss was not so realistic. "Oh, sweet, after X hours, I've gained all this EXP. Now I'm off to Dragon's Aery..." And then once you die a horrible death to Faffy, suddenly your experience that you gained in X hours takes a hit.

It makes no sense to include anything like that in XIV because you can't remove skill levels all because you died. It's counter-intuitive and more annoying than anything. The equivalent of Weakness in this game will serve as a good short-term penalty, as many have agreed upon already. Yeah, okay, sure, after a hard day's work and a few KO's here and there, you'll need to repair your armour. But you shouldn't have to go back out to the field to re-learn skills you thought you had specifically engrained in your ******* forever all because you died.
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#50 Jan 16 2010 at 2:49 AM Rating: Decent
If SE wants to bludgeon their playerbase with needless penalties and a sado-********* approach to gaming, they're more than welcome to. And they'll probably watch their subscriber base shrink by 75% in the span of a year just like it did in FFXI. It's their choice, really, but I'm hoping they've realized by now that they can't cater fundamental aspects of the game to the hardcore. Dying is not exclusive to the hardcore. It's something that's going to happen to everyone at some point or another, hence it's a fundamental part of the game mechanics.

It honestly doesn't speak well of people who say things like, "If <other person> doesn't punish me, I just goof off." Umm...okay? Not everyone is like that. Not everyone needs a boot to the teeth to remind them that they just failed. Harsh death penalties restrict the playerbase. My last day in FFXI featured me trying to solo what was labeled as a readily solo-able mission for the ToAU mission series only to get jumped by a chigoe. It cost me XP loss (no point re-raising with the chigoe right there waiting for me) in addition to the time spent traveling into the bowels of some god-forsaken cave off in the middle of nowhere, 1.5 stacks of silent oil, a handful of shinobi-tabi, and what little enthusiasm I had left for the game.

Because of a chigoe.

There were plenty of times I would have loved to just bomb around in at-level zones exploring and enjoying the environment the devs toiled to create but hey, true sight mobs, costly stealth items, xp loss and abysmal travel options made it not worth the risk. Why invest the time to create massive, detailed zones and then stuff the game full of mechanics that has players too harried to enjoy them? Dumb design. And it cost SE dearly. They could have earned millions upon millions of dollars more if they had catered to a more casual market from the beginning but again, the only real MMO that had to compare their first online offering to was EQ. They've had the opportunity to observe a lot of other MMOs since and get a better idea of what works and what doesn't.

You can cater to the hardcore market by including content that is tuned to be demanding and difficult. The challenge shouldn't be something so prissy as simply not dying. How about...*gasp*...a challenge that involves succeeding in a situation with an extremely low margin for error with a variety of persistent encounter details that need to be responded to in an appropriate and timely fashion.

XP loss wasn't the only penalty for death in FFXI. It was part of the triple-threat scenario that involved wasted time (rez sickness, travel time, and wasted gil (reraise items, food, stealth consumables). Take away the xp loss and you've still got penalties associated with failure. Ideally, the greater the risk, the greater the reward should be. Considering that the reward was frequently altogether mediocre if not non-existant (THANKS FOR THE EARTH CRYSTAL, KIRIN!!).

SE needs to look at overall balance and apply some common sense when answering the question, "If we beat the **** out of these people for failing, what can we offer them for succeeding that will keep them playing instead of canceling their subscriptions?"

Horizontal progression + excessive penalties for failures = bad game design. It's not 1995 anymore. The MMO consumer base has evolved. SE needs to make certain they evolve their design philosophies, too.
#51 Jan 16 2010 at 4:26 AM Rating: Decent
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In the world of +15k/h standards and cheap Reraise options (scroll, earring, hairpin, pocket WHM-SCH etc), exp lose wasn't a big deal.

Quote:

Because of a chigoe.


now you know not to fight on that place and pick another safe area to do so ?
as for time spent... 3min? guess also you weren't around when SE added silent ninja tools (10k/99 last I checked).aka you learned something hurry~

Quote:
Dumb design.

Man that would be true IF SE didnt add so many ways for ppl to pass through zones even with true sight/sound mobs and if they couldnt , zone lines were so close. that adding to mobs path taking. nothing stops me (and many others) from exploring any area with minimum cost.

IF that was a dumb design , kindly explain your idea of none-dumb design.

Death effecting armer will only result into LS(s) enslaving someone to fix everything for everyone. (as you shouldn't expect ppl to level crafting job even if they could... they didn't carry meds -or complained about cost- to pass through zones on FFXI as it cost too much hohohoho)
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