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be very very quiet..... I'm talking death penaltyFollow

#52 Jan 16 2010 at 4:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think a happy medium needs to be found on the death penalty. The "stacking debuff" sounds like a good idea to me - light enough that a single mistake (perhaps an NM spawning next to you when you're not prepared to fight) won't take you out of the game for an hour, but getting in over your head and repeatedly trying to fight monsters far too strong for you will give you a strict punishment. Maybe a 5-minute weakness the first death, long enough to keep it from being a "fight tactic" but short enough to sit out, stacking by 5's each time?

I understand the idea that making the penalty too light will make the battle system unrealistic - "it's okay, I can just die!" doesn't have a very adventurous feel to it. However, I'll take someone's analogy earlier.

Quote:
If I asked you to make a simple basketball layup, $5 if it goes in, lose $5 if you miss, it might seem easy.

If I asked you to make a layup, $5 if it goes in, but lose $100 if you miss as the penalty, that layup just got a whole lot harder.


If you asked me to make that second layup, I would say "no" and walk away. That's the inherent problem with a strict penalty: people will say "no" and walk away, and no game developer on earth would want that. If you make dying in a video game too unpleasant, people are just going to not fight - and at that point, you might as well play The Sims, not Final Fantasy.

Part of the fun of games is occasionally taking a risk and seeing if maybe you're strong enough to take on a tougher monster than you thought, or maybe pull a chain instead of a single mob. If you risk losing all your money/experience/skills/etc from a single mistake, you'll never be able to take that risk. There's no fun in always playing it safe!

Edited, Jan 16th 2010 5:57am by kateko
#53 Jan 16 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Default
Falasi wrote:
In the world of +15k/h standards and cheap Reraise options (scroll, earring, hairpin, pocket WHM-SCH etc), exp lose wasn't a big deal.

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Because of a chigoe.


now you know not to fight on that place and pick another safe area to do so ?
as for time spent... 3min? guess also you weren't around when SE added silent ninja tools (10k/99 last I checked).aka you learned something hurry~


I think you're being a little bit unrealistic. Your masochistic tendencies are not my concern. It was proximity aggro trying to get around a corner. I wasn't fighting anything, trying to fight anything, or randomly exploring. I was trying to get from point A to point B. And it was more like 30 minutes of travel time lost up to that point.

Point being, the lost travel time and consumable cost would have been enough of a kick in the teeth, and it could safely be argued that even that would have been unduly excessive. Throw in the xp loss and it's over-the-top.

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Dumb design.

Man that would be true IF SE didnt add so many ways for ppl to pass through zones even with true sight/sound mobs and if they couldnt , zone lines were so close. that adding to mobs path taking. nothing stops me (and many others) from exploring any area with minimum cost.

IF that was a dumb design , kindly explain your idea of none-dumb design.


I'm not interested in things SE added to FFXI after it was basically a dead game. It's amazing what a developer will do to squeeze another couple of years of life out of a game, not because those changes are in line with their design but because they feel they have no other option. I want SE to make smart choices about FFXIV design because they've grown as MMO developers, not because they release a trash game and suddenly have Wada breathing down their necks about why it turns out to be such a fiscal disappoitnment.

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Death effecting armer will only result into LS(s) enslaving someone to fix everything for everyone. (as you shouldn't expect ppl to level crafting job even if they could... they didn't carry meds -or complained about cost- to pass through zones on FFXI as it cost too much hohohoho)


You're wrong. You obviously have little to no experience dealing with the practical implementation of equipment durability. Get some experience outside FFXI and inform yourself, then assert your opinions.
#54 Jan 16 2010 at 11:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I think you're being a little bit unrealistic. Your masochistic tendencies are not my concern. It was proximity aggro trying to get around a corner. I wasn't fighting anything, trying to fight anything, or randomly exploring. I was trying to get from point A to point B. And it was more like 30 minutes of travel time lost up to that point.


How unrealistic ? considering all areas related to ToAU missions are accessible by runic portal and few mins walking time. what would you suggest ? in order to get from A to B no mobs should exist or maybe they never aggro so you dont turn on your brain and pick a safe place to fight and maybe die so you can try again?

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I'm not interested in things SE added to FFXI after it was basically a dead game. It's amazing what a developer will do to squeeze another couple of years of life out of a game, not because those changes are in line with their design but because they feel they have no other option. I want SE to make smart choices about FFXIV design because they've grown as MMO developers, not because they release a trash game and suddenly have Wada breathing down their necks about why it turns out to be such a fiscal disappoitnment.


So if they didn’t do anything then they are wrong and if they do then they are wrong anyway since its a trash dead game!

I'm not sure honestly as you may have hated FFXI but others have loved it . to each his own.

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You're wrong. You obviously have little to no experience dealing with the practical implementation of equipment durability. Get some experience outside FFXI and inform yourself, then assert your opinions.


Oh I did (EVE, WAR, WOW, Aion) but FFXI worked best for me. you just need to realize that ppl who loves FFXI also tried other games. but as for equipment durability goes:

- If only you can fix your armer -> you have to level a crafting job.
- If NPC can fix your armer for a fee -> why do you add a crafting class then?
- If someone else can fix your armer for a fee/item -> end game shells will simply have someone to do it.

nothing wrong with 3rd one, will see how things works out.

I'm not sure why ppl still bash FFXI's way of dealing with things and just want to copy-paste whatever WOW have using FFXIV's skins. sure FFXI has its mistakes but few things have been done to fix this. maybe you should play FFXI now and test how things worked out , should release some of your hatred for the game.

Thats it for me~
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#55 Jan 17 2010 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
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You're wrong. You obviously have little to no experience dealing with the practical implementation of equipment durability. Get some experience outside FFXI and inform yourself, then assert your opinions.
If durability is implemented I'd like to see more powerful items have much higher durability. Some things I worked for in FFXI... well, let's just say I put a lot of time into it and at the time I got them, I wasn't bringing in a lot of gil. I might have had an O Kote, Jujitsu Gi, and Sniper Rings, but I had like.. 100k if I was lucky, at that time. Seeing these items that sold for millions slowly degrade just by me using them, would have made it entirely pointless for me to even try to get these items.

In WoW, this was never really a problem for me. One, Gold rained from the skies and I could buy my way out of anything, and two, there wasn't a large demand at pre80 levels to have anything outstanding. You run through levels so fast, that whatever falls in instances is more than enough to get you by.

If SE does somewhat maintain an FFXI standpoint on gear, where what you have between 10 and end level matters and good gear last you more than 3 to 5 levels, I definitely want to see durability being tweaked on rare, powerful items (significantly so).
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#56 Jan 17 2010 at 4:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pretty much summing up the counter-point anyone will try and make, after someone describes a particularly bad experience that turned them off FFXI and the Death Penalty: "Learn2play"

Like everyone who ever complained about being penalized for death was a mouth breather, no talent-having, 75/37 WAR/WHM buttersheep who would have been absolved of the death penalty if they only knew how to play, and came more crazy prepared than Batman to every possible encounter ever conceived by the greatest minds and supercomputer predictions of the 21st century.

Yeah. No.

Edit: Incoming sub-default post. Go ahead, hit the little Red Down Arrow of Denial.

Edited, Jan 17th 2010 5:38am by Warne
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#57 Jan 17 2010 at 5:05 AM Rating: Default
Falasi wrote:
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I think you're being a little bit unrealistic. Your masochistic tendencies are not my concern. It was proximity aggro trying to get around a corner. I wasn't fighting anything, trying to fight anything, or randomly exploring. I was trying to get from point A to point B. And it was more like 30 minutes of travel time lost up to that point.


How unrealistic ? considering all areas related to ToAU missions are accessible by runic portal and few mins walking time. what would you suggest ? in order to get from A to B no mobs should exist or maybe they never aggro so you dont turn on your brain and pick a safe place to fight and maybe die so you can try again?


No, I'm talking about brain dead developers that thought it was cute to include teeny little mobs that are functionally invisible until you're practically standing on you that can obliterate you in a matter of seconds.

If you're the kind of player who needs a game developer to repeatedly hammer you with pointless obstacles, by all means stick with FFXI. You can get on your uberdork high horse about skill, preparedness, willingness to suffer for nothing, and anything else you can throw around but at the end of the day, SE has already said they're not catering FFXIV to your type, so it's all moot.

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I'm not interested in things SE added to FFXI after it was basically a dead game. It's amazing what a developer will do to squeeze another couple of years of life out of a game, not because those changes are in line with their design but because they feel they have no other option. I want SE to make smart choices about FFXIV design because they've grown as MMO developers, not because they release a trash game and suddenly have Wada breathing down their necks about why it turns out to be such a fiscal disappoitnment.


So if they didn’t do anything then they are wrong and if they do then they are wrong anyway since its a trash dead game!


You're too thick to carry on this discussion.

Also, it's spelled armOr, not armer. Hooked on phonics failed for you.
#58 Jan 17 2010 at 5:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Also, it's spelled armOr, not armer. Hooked on phonics failed for you.


I admit that I fail at spellings and I apologize if your brain was hurt while reading my post.

Quote:
If you're the kind of player who needs a game developer to repeatedly hammer you with pointless obstacles, by all means stick with FFXI. You can get on your uberdork high horse about skill, preparedness, willingness to suffer for nothing, and anything else you can throw around but at the end of the day, SE has already said they're not catering FFXIV to your type, so it's all moot.


SE also said Mythic weapons were made for casual players...
I really find it silly that a single chigoe turned FFXI into a trash game for you...anyway..

Since you know more then me on MMOs, can you explain better mobs design ? placement ? aggro type ? (this is not an insult , since you always complain that we only know FFXI and no other games ,kindly explain and share the knowledge).

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#59 Jan 18 2010 at 10:45 AM Rating: Default
Falasi wrote:
I admit that I fail at spellings and I apologize if your brain was hurt while reading my post.

Quote:
If you're the kind of player who needs a game developer to repeatedly hammer you with pointless obstacles, by all means stick with FFXI. You can get on your uberdork high horse about skill, preparedness, willingness to suffer for nothing, and anything else you can throw around but at the end of the day, SE has already said they're not catering FFXIV to your type, so it's all moot.


SE also said Mythic weapons were made for casual players...
I really find it silly that a single chigoe turned FFXI into a trash game for you...anyway..


That experience was simply the bug that broke the camel's back, as it were.

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Since you know more then me on MMOs, can you explain better mobs design ? placement ? aggro type ? (this is not an insult , since you always complain that we only know FFXI and no other games ,kindly explain and share the knowledge).


It's pretty simple. If a developer wants to include mobs that are virtually/functionally impossible to see until you're within their aggro radius, tuning them so that getting aggro is almost an assured death is stupid. It says, "We've run out of ways to 'challenge' our players in ways that make sense, so what else can we do?" Especially in light of the consequences for death. Too many consequences for too little reward makes for bad game design. Always has, always will.
#60 Jan 18 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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It's pretty simple. If a developer wants to include mobs that are virtually/functionally impossible to see until you're within their aggro radius, tuning them so that getting aggro is almost an assured death is stupid. It says, "We've run out of ways to 'challenge' our players in ways that make sense, so what else can we do?" Especially in light of the consequences for death. Too many consequences for too little reward makes for bad game design. Always has, always will.


Sure thing but I doubt SE just added them to **** off players. maybe we see things from different angles , SE adding multiple types of mobs behaviors and difficulties helps the game so I don't see that a bad thing. between the things that can kill you (soulflayers) and the things you can pass through like they never exist (Colibris). mobs that aggro sight-sound , true sight/sound that you need to sneak pass through or team up against. beside each mob has its own weakness to balance things out ... "Critical hits kill chigoes" balance (imo) with "impossible to see" (am I the only one who can spot them jumbling around?).

I also dont see any relation between hardcore/casual and challenge. a game with min to no challenge is boring for some. just my take on things.

Again all I truly want SE is to balance things out so they can target hardcore and casual players as well(sure they said its for casual players but hardcore players . wishful thinking I guess.
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#61 Jan 18 2010 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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I also dont see any relation between hardcore/casual and challenge.


It exists, and it's important to consider. If an event is supposed to be targeted toward casual gamers, then it shouldn't require top-notch gear and an excessive use of consumables, for example. Forcing both is basically a multiplicative representation of a good deal of time invested into the game. In the short term, hardcores will satisfy that time requirement much more quickly, but for a casual, it may take years before they could even consider attempting it... and failure could be a major setback on the consumable front, or whatever SE may deem an acceptable death penalty.

Deep down, the hardcores need to shed the sense of ego that usually comes with the play style. They demand distinction. They demand people know they're better, one way or another. Some sadly think that once they log off, it all means something. However, it's a toxic mentality that often leads to others taking a dislike to the same game when standards collide and satisfactions aren't met. Really, the only thing that leaves the game are potential friendships, but I'll be damned if I've met too many hardcores who forget I exist the moment I'm no longer useful to them.

After playing XI as long as I had, I have a simple design philosophy now: Be inclusive, not exclusive. That means hacking away, as best one can, all of the ******** that leads to cookie-cutters and elitism. If an event is deliberately designed to be stressful, then people are going to be less tolerable of mistakes or compromises. This isn't to say these types of encounters shouldn't exist, but they should never be the primary focus of developers and should probably be absent for the first year or so of the game's life as people familiarize themselves with the mechanics and start formulating the usual strategies that'll take or falter in the long run.
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#62 Jan 18 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I think there should be some type of penalty, but not so bad as people won't try new things to see if a different strategy would work against a tough enemy or enemies. Either way mean or not so bad penalty I'll play the game anyway lol, but hope a not so bad penalty is final verdict.
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#63 Jan 18 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
Falasi wrote:
Quote:
It's pretty simple. If a developer wants to include mobs that are virtually/functionally impossible to see until you're within their aggro radius, tuning them so that getting aggro is almost an assured death is stupid. It says, "We've run out of ways to 'challenge' our players in ways that make sense, so what else can we do?" Especially in light of the consequences for death. Too many consequences for too little reward makes for bad game design. Always has, always will.


Sure thing but I doubt SE just added them to **** off players. maybe we see things from different angles , SE adding multiple types of mobs behaviors and difficulties helps the game so I don't see that a bad thing. between the things that can kill you (soulflayers) and the things you can pass through like they never exist (Colibris). mobs that aggro sight-sound , true sight/sound that you need to sneak pass through or team up against. beside each mob has its own weakness to balance things out ... "Critical hits kill chigoes" balance (imo) with "impossible to see" (am I the only one who can spot them jumbling around?).


Adding multiple types of mob behaviors helps the game, yes. Varied levels of difficulty helps the game. "Here's something new that drops nothing, gives no xp, and will readily kill you with frightful efficiency" is poor design. Risk vs. reward.

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I also dont see any relation between hardcore/casual and challenge. a game with min to no challenge is boring for some. just my take on things.


Show me where someone asked for a game with little to no challenge.

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Again all I truly want SE is to balance things out so they can target hardcore and casual players as well(sure they said its for casual players but hardcore players . wishful thinking I guess.


Then start the process from the ground up and when you see death penalties as something that will be applied to both casual and hardcore players alike, tuning them to hardcore levels is stupid, no?
#64 Jan 18 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
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I also dont see any relation between hardcore/casual and challenge.


It exists, and it's important to consider. If an event is supposed to be targeted toward casual gamers, then it shouldn't require top-notch gear and an excessive use of consumables, for example. Forcing both is basically a multiplicative representation of a good deal of time invested into the game. In the short term, hardcores will satisfy that time requirement much more quickly, but for a casual, it may take years before they could even consider attempting it... and failure could be a major setback on the consumable front, or whatever SE may deem an acceptable death penalty.

Deep down, the hardcores need to shed the sense of ego that usually comes with the play style. They demand distinction. They demand people know they're better, one way or another. Some sadly think that once they log off, it all means something. However, it's a toxic mentality that often leads to others taking a dislike to the same game when standards collide and satisfactions aren't met. Really, the only thing that leaves the game are potential friendships, but I'll be damned if I've met too many hardcores who forget I exist the moment I'm no longer useful to them.

After playing XI as long as I had, I have a simple design philosophy now: Be inclusive, not exclusive. That means hacking away, as best one can, all of the bullsh*t that leads to cookie-cutters and elitism. If an event is deliberately designed to be stressful, then people are going to be less tolerable of mistakes or compromises. This isn't to say these types of encounters shouldn't exist, but they should never be the primary focus of developers and should probably be absent for the first year or so of the game's life as people familiarize themselves with the mechanics and start formulating the usual strategies that'll take or falter in the long run.


It's also important for developers to remember that hardcore gamers also have a tendency to form their own hardcore challenges out of what is normally casual content. Low manning HNMs is a fair example, given that in the early days of FFXI, you'd bring a small army with you against the same monsters that in later years wouldn't even warrant a full alliance. Soloing some of the upper level KSNMs is another example, and there are incentives beyond just the pure challenge of it. You get bragging rights, and a greater share of the rewards (pay a cut of your profits to a group of BLMs, or solo the KSNM and keep everything for yourself).

You should have a Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue, something that'll keep the people who eat/sleep/breathe/bleed the game interested. But you shouldn't have a lot of things like that, and there needs to be endgame content accessible to people want to work jobs during the day, and play at night, not work jobs during the day, and come home and work your endgame job at night. If there is a deficit in hardcore content, then the hardcore players will come up with their own challenges as long as the rest of the game is solid. If the game is too hardcore, then your casual players will more than likely quit instead of stepping up their game and getting more hardcore about it.
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#65 Jan 18 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Player imposed difficulty is another angle, yes, and often one overlooked when people start parading around claiming things too easy. Suggest said group take on whatever HNM in Onion gear and they look at you like you're nuts. However, I can also understand wanting to put what you've acquired to use, which is also part of why I hate Salvage as an XI event since it strips you naked and doesn't exactly cater to taking more than 6 people if you want to unlock everyone decently.

Conversely, I do believe SE needs to do a better job of keeping some things so you can't low-man or solo them. They got lazy about this in XI by just making them Bind/Sleep/Grav immune or giving them Regens that overcome DoTs. Nonetheless, the ability to solo, I believe, hurt RDMs in the long run, as people used it as a foundation for shooting down updates to the job and when SE did finally throw them a bone, it changed nothing. Anyway, how SE goes about keeping things challenging will have to depend on the event. Mobs could have varying AIs and/or respond to certain activities differently. Hopefully we won't see players trying to zerg everything like they do in XI, and maybe we could see a less conventional fight where the purpose is to survive and let the environment kill the mob for you.
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#66 Jan 18 2010 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Deep down, the hardcores need to shed the sense of ego that usually comes with the play style. They demand distinction. They demand people know they're better, one way or another. Some sadly think that once they log off, it all means something. However, it's a toxic mentality that often leads to others taking a dislike to the same game when standards collide and satisfactions aren't met. Really, the only thing that leaves the game are potential friendships, but I'll be damned if I've met too many hardcore who forget I exist the moment I'm no longer useful to them.


There will always be those kind of players , hardcore-ness has nothing to do with it. FFXI had less equip options thus the standards were high for Casual players. I think if they had multiple options in which its A>B>C where A is HNM drop that require more time , B is 30 min event drop and C is crafted option (just using this order as an example, think Hauby +1/NQ/-1) player base will demand B but seek A, rejection of C depend on how hard to get B.

Cookie cutter setup will always be there, its common on all MMOs even WoW, ppl will always seek best setup to get best result, imo developers should add more option with multiple difficulties , something as standard and something to look forward to.

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It exists, and it's important to consider. If an event is supposed to be targeted toward casual gamers, then it shouldn't require top-notch gear and an excessive use of consumables, for example. Forcing both is basically a multiplicative representation of a good deal of time invested into the game. In the short term, hardcores will satisfy that time requirement much more quickly, but for a casual, it may take years before they could even consider attempting it... and failure could be a major setback on the consumable front, or whatever SE may deem an acceptable death penalty.


Only event I can think of is Einherjar since it can be hard even with "bring more ppl!" strategy. Our LS had both casual and hardcore players and believe it or not its the hardcore that suggested doing sky back to back for 3 weeks so we can get our casual players haidates , N gloves. the only thing that we couldn't provide was Crimson legs (1/24). what Im trying to say: Hardcore and Casual players can co-exist together , they dont need to be separated.
(I also know that you cant expect perfect example, maybe something to make ppl helps each other?).

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Adding multiple types of mob behaviors helps the game, yes. Varied levels of difficulty helps the game. "Here's something new that drops nothing, gives no xp, and will readily kill you with frightful efficiency" is poor design. Risk vs. reward.


They do however give exp unless you critical hit them (few lvl 60? exp parties were killing them for good exp/h , critical chance should be low since its your dex/mob's agi or something within those lines). Hopefully they can up the reward part to match the risk. My point is that Risk should exist.

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Show me where someone asked for a game with little to no challenge.


Different kinds of challenge my friend rather then the basic. that's what I'm asking for.

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Then start the process from the ground up and when you see death penalties as something that will be applied to both casual and hardcore players alike, tuning them to hardcore levels is stupid, no?


The thing is: hardly anyone complain about gaining exp(they do about gils), sure some jobs have hard time getting parties but there will always be other options and campaign is one of them. even then some jobs were less demanded for endgame activities in which you loss exp. **** even casual players didnt invite those jobs unless no other option exist at time.

Exp penalty (to me at least) is not really a big deal since If I die multiple times I should stop and rethink my strategy rather then keep trying a failed one, you dont smash into the door .. you may do it few times then think "maybe I should turn the handle"..
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#67 Jan 18 2010 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Falasi wrote:
Exp penalty (to me at least) is not really a big deal since If I die multiple times I should stop and rethink my strategy rather then keep trying a failed one, you dont smash into the door .. you may do it few times then think "maybe I should turn the handle"..


You can't always avoid death depending on what you are doing though. People haven't called it "Dienamis" and there wouldn't be dyna linkshells with names like "Delevel" if massive amounts of exp weren't lost. I could make a case for exp penalties upon death and a case against given different aspects of the current game. Depending on what you are doing, there should sometimes be a penalty and sometimes shouldn't, and that mostly depends on the other aspects of what it is you are doing. Something like dynamis or einherjar already have enough limits set to them that exp loss upon death need not be taken into account as part of the difficulty of the activity. Something like a regular exp party, or certain quests either without time limits or very large time limits, go ahead and throw it in as it adds to the risk, and the act of dying and waiting out weakness or traveling back from your homepoint don't cost as much to those things as they do on very time limited events.
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#68 Jan 18 2010 at 9:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Only event I can think of is Einherjar since it can be hard even with "bring more ppl!" strategy. Our LS had both casual and hardcore players and believe it or not its the hardcore that suggested doing sky back to back for 3 weeks so we can get our casual players haidates , N gloves. the only thing that we couldn't provide was Crimson legs (1/24). what Im trying to say: Hardcore and Casual players can co-exist together , they dont need to be separated.
(I also know that you cant expect perfect example, maybe something to make ppl helps each other?).


I'm a bit torn on this. As someone that's been cast aside before, I can see dangling the shinies in front of the casuals as a means to keep them along as warm bodies to plug holes when numbers are running low for more established groups. Moreover, XI's endgame community was somewhat isolationist between most linkshells. In turn, while they may tolerate the casuals within their own ranks, those of rival groups are still often scorned and/or avoided. People functioning independently of their linkshells are possible, yes, but lets not kid ourselves into believing it's never been a source of drama. This doesn't even touch cliques within the shells themselves.

I know I'm cynical, though. I don't expect the best from people, so I prefer to avoid situations where their worst gets presented. I can't bring myself to expect random acts of kindness when a game's systems promote selfishness. Death penalties are but a block in that foundation, and they certainly don't teach me anything when some failure isn't the result of my own actions. Instead, it either breeds the "Never do PUGs!" mentality or leads to people getting kicked from shells if they make a habit of messing up. Even worse if nobody takes the time to explain to them what they did wrong.

Naturally, an event being inclusive may lead to some compromise in difficulty. I can accept that as long the event itself isn't boring. I don't know if others can, though. With as little as we know of XIV, though, it's hard to estimate how things will pan out. All we do know is XI and what SE's shown to us through it. Good and bad.
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#69 Jan 18 2010 at 9:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Deep down, the hardcores need to shed the sense of ego that usually comes with the play style. They demand distinction. They demand people know they're better, one way or another. Some sadly think that once they log off, it all means something. However, it's a toxic mentality that often leads to others taking a dislike to the same game when standards collide and satisfactions aren't met.

After playing XI as long as I had, I have a simple design philosophy now: Be inclusive, not exclusive. That means hacking away, as best one can, all of the bullsh*t that leads to cookie-cutters and elitism.


Nobody likes being ganked.
(odd intro, bear with me a sec)

We almost universally recognize ganking as kind of a prickish thing to do. The PvPers that invest their time wholly into cutting their teeth on the meek are far and few between (most are in it for the challenge). So if everybody dislikes being ganked, and only a handful enjoy ganking, why do developers keep allowing this?

It's not for the designer to judge how people are entertained. Taking delight in oppressing the weak is just as valid in their eyes as the person who wants to collect the strongest armor. They merely recognize a player is enjoying him/herself, and provide an outlet for it. Even if that means instilling them with the power to be irrepressible jerks.

(Don't misunderstand this as the moneygrubbing of a cold-hearted corporation, it's just a harmless nod to the twisted little magnifying-glass-over-an-anthill part of human nature.)

Admittedly, no one player type should be catered to so completely as the min/maxing sect was in XI. MMOs are what they are because they try their best to appeal to all the player-types somewhat equally. Player-types in an MMO exist in a kind of ecosystem, at once complimentary and conflicting. Like an ecosystem, it's delicate, too much of one type can hurt the others in a way that's unhealthy for the whole.

SE's failing in XI wasn't in allowing min/maxers, but not controlling their influence and population.



Edited, Jan 19th 2010 12:33am by Zemzelette
#70 Jan 18 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eh, games come with rules, usually to make the game more enjoyable. Ganking reminds me of a player getting away with a foul in basketball or something. You can whine to the ref all you want, but its rare anything comes of it because they didn't see it or chose not to.

MMOs seem to come with an awkward lack of rules. Some might even call 'em a social experiment in controlled entropy. A bit of a contradiction, maybe, but it really is chaos within loosely bound rules like stats, where we can go, what we can fight, and so on.

As I noted earlier, I can't trust people to be decent. Designing the game to encourage others to be kinder would be a definite plus in my book. This won't happen if we're still looking at excessive time sinks, needless rarity, and harsh penalties for failures. That just makes people picky, or on the extreme end, elitist.
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#71 Jan 18 2010 at 10:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I believe acting as moral agents is outside the scope of game design.

But ultimately we agree on the result, because I seem to want most of the things you want for reasons of accessibility.


Edited, Jan 19th 2010 12:30am by Zemzelette
#72 Jan 18 2010 at 11:07 PM Rating: Default
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I'm glad none of you are developers. A no-penalty game is really not my idea of rewarding or challenging.
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#73 Jan 19 2010 at 3:51 AM Rating: Default
odinpingpong wrote:
I'm glad none of you are developers. A no-penalty game is really not my idea of rewarding or challenging.


Show me where anyone mentioned no penalty.
#74 Jan 19 2010 at 6:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Show me where anyone mentioned no penalty.


Show me the penalties you do want.
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#75 Jan 19 2010 at 7:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Really, the worst part of XI's penalties directly related to death were EXP loss and deleveling. As is, simply failing means you haven't done whatever you set out to do. This means lost time, naturally, cash spent on food/tools/meds, and perhaps the inability to try again if timers or claim with competition present is involved. Even if you can start all over, you still lost that precious time (Remember, not everyone's a no-life student out there).

The EXP loss doesn't force you to learn from your mistakes, especially when you see some people prattle about how they'll have it made up in 2 minutes of meriting and even take to zombie tactics. Losing claim or the event is the truly sobering penalty, while cash loss can be salt on the wound.

Adding durability loss to the mix just penalizes those who tank or go out of their way to protect squishies. I have never, in the various MMOs I've played, where there is some kind of direct money expense tied to death, have seen people offer to pay the tab for a mistake they may have caused that resulted in a party member's demise. Usually it's about being as sneaky as you can to walk away with as much loot as possible, or demand everyone have the right to roll on something (even if they can't use it and someone can) just for the chance at extra cash.

Excessive penalties translate to drama. Excessive penalties lead to people never helping strangers. Excessive penalties are just an artificial difficulty, usually a masked form of added time sink. If you want difficulty, the trick is to put it where how you act when you're alive, not in the time spent after resurrection. You fail, no chance at loot.



If that's not enough for some people, then that's where personally imposed difficulty can come into play. Never accept a raise. Drop half your crash every death. Really hardcore? Chuck all your gear every time and start over. Even better, delete your character and go totally fresh.
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#76 Jan 19 2010 at 9:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I liked it when the penalty for dying in games was that you died.

In what other final fantasy is there a penalty other than 'the shame of death itself'?
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#77 Jan 19 2010 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I liked it when the penalty for dying in games was that you died.

In what other final fantasy is there a penalty other than 'the shame of death itself'?


This is an MMO not a single player rpg, there is a huge difference. Even then the penalty is you have to go back to your last save point. That penalty could possibly be far worst in an single player rpg, think about if you forgot to save and you died and now have to go all the way back. In an MMO it saves as you go along, so you should just be able to get up and continue like nothing happened? I say no. In a single player rpg you dont have other people waiting to fight the same mobs you are fighting, in an MMO you have competition. Whether its on an HNM or just many parties sharing a exp camp, death allows others to give it a try. Comparing a single player rpg, to an MMO is not bright anyway, it shares no relevance at all, especially on a topic like this. An MMO has tons of factors that come into play that single player mmos simply can never have because its "SINGLE PLAYER."
#78 Jan 19 2010 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I do want to prevent "dying/raising multiple times" tactics in order to achieve some kind of goal in some way though.
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#79AureliusSir the Irrelevant, Posted: Jan 19 2010 at 10:43 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Read my posts please.
#80 Jan 19 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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I consider "not allowed to move or make actions" penalty enough personally. As do I consider "being teleported back X miles".

I don't need more than that. Let me die and wait for a raise or home point. That will annoy me enough to avoid it.

Heck, if we take XI as benchmark you could even give players the option to pay 10% exp for no weakness. I'm sure all the people who think losing exp is a good thing would love that, while us who want to keep our exp would gladly avoid it.
#81 Jan 19 2010 at 10:50 AM Rating: Default
HocusP wrote:
Quote:
I liked it when the penalty for dying in games was that you died.

In what other final fantasy is there a penalty other than 'the shame of death itself'?


This is an MMO not a single player rpg, there is a huge difference. Even then the penalty is you have to go back to your last save point. That penalty could possibly be far worst in an single player rpg, think about if you forgot to save and you died and now have to go all the way back. In an MMO it saves as you go along, so you should just be able to get up and continue like nothing happened? I say no. In a single player rpg you dont have other people waiting to fight the same mobs you are fighting, in an MMO you have competition. Whether its on an HNM or just many parties sharing a exp camp, death allows others to give it a try. Comparing a single player rpg, to an MMO is not bright anyway, it shares no relevance at all, especially on a topic like this. An MMO has tons of factors that come into play that single player mmos simply can never have because its "SINGLE PLAYER."


lewl

You're equating FFXI to a good MMO. There's a huge difference. And if you carried the failed concepts of FFXI to a new MMO, you're going to wind up with a...failed new MMO.

See how that works?
#82 Jan 19 2010 at 10:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:

lewl

You're equating FFXI to a good MMO. There's a huge difference. And if you carried the failed concepts of FFXI to a new MMO, you're going to wind up with a...failed new MMO.

See how that works?


Since when do you have to have half of the worlds population playing for it to be considered a good MMO? Considering XI is one of the oldest on the market, Id say its doing bloody well.
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#83 Jan 19 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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RedGalka wrote:
I do want to prevent "dying/raising multiple times" tactics in order to achieve some kind of goal in some way though.


Which is easy enough to do without actually penalizing a person. XI's Weakness was one such deterrent, and additional deaths could compile some kind of anti-zombie behavior like being too weak to draw your weapon/cast spells, move, or even auto-HP you if you died 3 times in a row while weakened. Mobs could even be given added behavior that makes 'em want to target weakened players. This could up the usefulness of abilities like Cover, or even allow the introduction of new stuff like the implied area force field spell we saw in some of the early trailers/screenshots.
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#84 Jan 19 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Default
Kordain wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:

lewl

You're equating FFXI to a good MMO. There's a huge difference. And if you carried the failed concepts of FFXI to a new MMO, you're going to wind up with a...failed new MMO.

See how that works?


Since when do you have to have half of the worlds population playing for it to be considered a good MMO? Considering XI is one of the oldest on the market, Id say its doing bloody well.


I'm not talking about gross population compared to the world or even other MMOs. We're talking about previous subscriber base compared to current and how it got that way. I'm talking about a game that lost 3/4 of its subscriber base in the span of a year and never got it back. FFXI's population peaked at around 2 million subscribers back in the day as I recall, and then dropped to 400-500k and has been hovering there ever since. Compared to anything/everything else on the market, FFXI isn't offering anything to attract more people to the game than it loses, and if SE hadn't re-tweaked and re-tuned so much of it to at least try to attract and/or retain a more casual player, there would have already been mass server merges. Three out of four people agreed: FFXI was not a good MMO in the overall sense. And they tend to agree about why, as well, from SE's bungled management practices to excessively hardcore requirements. The magnitude and scope of death penalties in FFXI would be included in that.
#85 Jan 19 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Default
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
Show me where anyone mentioned no penalty.


Show me the penalties you do want.


Read my posts please.


I did. It was all complaining about the old.
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#86 Jan 19 2010 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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The travel time was enough punishment for me most of the time.

Unless you had a way to get back to said city then there was no easy way to get back to town. You set your HP close to the battle, if you die go to the home point, accept a full exp loss and move on... quickly(with no res sickness). However with no items to get back to town a lot of people didn't set their HP thus creating a problem.

Even if people set your HP... what if you couldn't. The supply runs were used to complement the porting since of course it was a money market for bots/people with no time to exploit. i was on my server for awhile and stayed with my Bastok... well Bastok was never in first ever if i recall. There was areas that had not been controlled by Bastok in... years, literally. How do you do a supply run to those outposts?

***The simple fact is some form of punishment is okay. I think everyone can agree it is acceptable and we can tolerate it. However there were multiple punishments that made a new and some old player feel like complete garbage.

First travel, gil was insane hard in the early levels to find. why pay for a port... just run. Choco's cost money on demand, save money take longer travel time. Outpost not done? Well run. all of these killing parties in the process if you can't get a party. You dodge your way across sometimes dangerous territory getting back to your party and hope you don't die... use any pots for invis/sneak you may have... costing more money. All not to mention the fact of the time it takes, some places are not NOT easy to get to, why would i want to spend all my time traveling...

Second Res sickness. If you got res'd you got this wonderful sickness that makes you next to worthless for the time period and with all the AOE/Aggro around you huddle in a corner, hope not to die until it goes away. If you are a vital part of the party everyone waits... and waits... and waits.

Third. Buff loss, costs money... sometimes a lot cause you lost food etc. Rebuy and Rebuff. With virtually no solo play post 10 mats were not as common, prices went up.

Forth. Exp loss. Early levels sure it was easy to get back but let's be honest when you start the game and don't have a LS or buddies you pub. Pub's fail sometimes due to many many reasons.. fact of life. However you were punished with exp loss and all the above.

One or two of these in some form would be fine, heck add durability loss would be cool if it existed too. For most of the player base they quit... why put up with this stuff? Go play something that makes you feel like wanting to play, i don't blame them in the slightest. For the entry player, wow this is brutal, really makes you feel wanted. If you don't have the right gear, subjobs or anything it can seriously hinder everyone elses chances to get exp.. i don't blame them for being picky but really...

Lastly... yeah it was not casual at all. The casual player only needed 1 wipe to realize... wow i wasted my whole night playing. I barely got any money, a few items, exp not as high as before and you lost... 30+minutes of time depending on how everything went down.


Note** I am writing this from the perspective of a guy that had restarted 3 times in the FFXI lifetime. Usually quitting due to real life stuff like University or moving cities etc. I love the game... the story, the music, the world everything is great, but it's flaws just seem to overtake what i love about it.
#87 Jan 19 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Penalties are not necessary. This cuts to the most basic of psych, where you'll find that the only thing penalties are really necessary for, and only in select situations, are training animals and people to not do bad things. So penalties are great in some situations for preventing people from breaking the rules. Their place is a thousand times more questionable within the recreational activity of the gameplay.

I'm assuming the reason some people seem to think penalties are so important is because they recognize them as belonging to a category of elements that ARE critical, though penalties are far from the only option in this category: feedback. Feedback is important, and penalties typically go hand in hand with feedback. But feedback does not need to be punitive, beyond the extent to which receiving negative feedback is innately unpleasant.

When you lose in a PvP match in anything-- a fighting game, an MMO, Rock Band, you don't need to have your file penalized. Getting a worse score, or dying-- the feedback that you didn't win, is all you need.

I'll concede that I don't know to what extent penalties can add to a game's enjoyment, but I'll wager (lil pun coming up) that it depends on the kind of gambler the person is.

Quote:
You should have a Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue, something that'll keep the people who eat/sleep/breathe/bleed the game interested.


I agreed with everything you said but this-- I don't think games should cater to and encourage the no-lifers. These are elements that may -appeal- to certain players, but are -healthy- to no one.

Quote:
This is an MMO not a single player rpg, there is a huge difference.


The same things people are saying about single player RPGs also apply to every other genre of games where you DO play with other people. Those arguments are still valid. Thus far, you have yet to make a good argument for why these differences change the dynamic of the game at some fundamental level. And good luck with that.

Edited, Jan 19th 2010 12:11pm by Kachi
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#88 Jan 19 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
You should have a Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue, something that'll keep the people who eat/sleep/breathe/bleed the game interested.


I agreed with everything you said but this-- I don't think games should cater to and encourage the no-lifers. These are elements that may -appeal- to certain players, but are -healthy- to no one.


Why do people have to equate players who want difficult bosses to no-lifers? I'm married, have a good job, live comfortably, visit friends and family, and I want these type of bosses that the majority of people cannot kill.

The way I (and my LS) enjoy games is beating the hardest bosses, with the least amount of people. I respect the way you (and the people who agree with your viewpoint) enjoy games, but don't ask SE to take away these type of encounters that keep people like me playing. If you don't like it b/c you feel like you need to give up your life in order to beat it, then you can choose not to attempt it, and enjoy the other aspects of the game.

Also I want to point out the glaring fact that you don't need to be a no-lifer to be good at gaming. In fact, good gamers often exercise and play sports involving hand-eye coordination, or do mentally challenging tasks to stay sharp, playing only 1-4 hours a day, and are much better than people who glue themselves to their seats for 10+ hours a day. We've all experienced playing a game too much with continuous failure, then coming in fresh the next day and winning.
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#89 Jan 19 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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playing only 1-4 hours a day, and are much better than people who glue themselves to their seats for 10+ hours a day


Usually these people only "outplay" you from a time perspective. They don't do much better or worse they just have a lot more time to kill. haha and i mean a LOT!

Usually these are the ones that create niche gameplay too. The general population has no easy way to voice opinions or often aren't heard. Half of them quit, half of them say something and a significant portion less get their problems addressed. This is one thing that i hate to compare... but WoW does real well. Problems are noted and usually pretty quickly fixed. What a lot of devs don't realize is one little problem or exploit can ruin the game for a lot of people... it is an MMO.

Edited, Jan 19th 2010 2:13pm by boriss
#90 Jan 19 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm growing older and have played a lot games, gained a lot of experience. It's the reason I'm hoping for an evolution in games not just in the graphics compartment, but also in the difficulty one. But it's as Odinpingpong says: when you start talking about difficulty, people assume that you're not a casual player. And I guess the market for advanced games is a lot smaller too so it's probably not going to happen.

Edit:Guess I'll have to wait till the first gaming generations have reached retirement age, then the demand should be higher.

Edited, Jan 19th 2010 10:18pm by RedGalka
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#91 Jan 19 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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You're equating FFXI to a good MMO. There's a huge difference. And if you carried the failed concepts of FFXI to a new MMO, you're going to wind up with a...failed new MMO


Your using your own opinion and stating it as a fact. FFXI was a **** good MMO (yes thats an opinion just like saying it wasn't is an opinion). Anyway that wasn't the point, since you clearly missed the point. The point was, comparing a single player game to an MMO is not smart at all (borderline retarded). Especially a topic like this because multiplayer games have certain factors that a single player game can never have. Competition is one of these factors, even if there was no direct competition between hnms or endgame content. There still will be competition to have the best gear. Even that slight factor can't be achieved in a single player game because who do you have gear to compare with? No one, your playing by yourself. Single player games are made in a way that caters to a single person. MMO's are made in a way that caters to tons of people playing together, its simply two different concepts.

On a successful scale, FFXI was a lot more successful then a lot of other MMOS. Everytime I bring that up, a lot of people have some drawn out excuse why the other MMOs that claimed to follow a method more aimed towards your viewpoints has failed. Its usually this game only failed because it did this, and this game only failed because it did that. Bottom-line FFXI was a lot more successful then you give it credit for, and is still going on today. It has been going at a steady (yes constant) rate for about 7-8 years now.

Quote:
Why do people have to equate players who want difficult bosses to no-lifers? I'm married, have a good job, live comfortably, visit friends and family, and I want these type of bosses that the majority of people cannot kill.

The way I (and my LS) enjoy games is beating the hardest bosses, with the least amount of people. I respect the way you (and the people who agree with your viewpoint) enjoy games, but don't ask SE to take away these type of encounters that keep people like me playing. If you don't like it b/c you feel like you need to give up your life in order to beat it, then you can choose not to attempt it, and enjoy the other aspects of the game.


I agree with this, somebody usually has a slick comment when people want challenging and long bosses. They usually say that you have to have no life or whatever, but thats far from the truth. I killed a bout everything (not AV) and have a girlfriend, played sports, going to a university, and had a job. It doesn't take you to have no-life to kill long hard bosses. You can easily sit 1 day aside to attempt such and such boss, I mean people do have days off from work. You can easily make time, all it takes is you managing your time well.

You don't have to even attempt these bosses, if you don't want too. I don't understand why you don't want them in the game just because you won't manage your time in order to kill it. There will certainly be tons of bosses that you can kill and tons of rewards you can get. Just because a long boss isn't your cup of tea, don't degrade the people that do want them. Assuming someone has no-life just because they want a few long challenging fights doesn't make sense at all. It just makes you sound very jealous and childish, just because you can't kill it, you don't want anybody else to kill it either. Especially when you don't even know the person your talking about, he probably has more of a life than you, and can just manage his time well.

Edited, Jan 19th 2010 5:53pm by HocusP
#92 Jan 19 2010 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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If there is no death penalty, what is the point of being able to die? Why not just make everybody invincible? Even WoW has death penalties in that you are weakened for a period of time after dying, I don't see why losing abit of EXP in FF11 makes that much of a difference.
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#93 Jan 19 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:


lewl

You're equating FFXI to a good MMO. There's a huge difference. And if you carried the failed concepts of FFXI to a new MMO, you're going to wind up with a...failed new MMO.

See how that works?



I ask again. Why are you even here? You hated FF11 and you will probably hate FF14. Please return to the WoW foum where you belong.

Edited, Jan 19th 2010 11:52pm by insanekangaroo
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#94 Jan 19 2010 at 5:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If there is no death penalty, what is the point of being able to die? Why not just make everybody invincible? Even WoW has death penalties in that you are weakened for a period of time after dying, I don't see why losing abit of EXP in FF11 makes that much of a difference.


wrong.

The only res sickness you get in WoW is when you choose to revive at the Graveyard. Usually this only happens when people want to save a bit of time or some douche is camping your body. Also you get huge damage to your gear which in the late levels can hurt quite a bit... although gold is easy to find so not too much.

I remember blizz saying back in the day "The only punishment for death is having to walk back, we felt not being able to play was enough of a punishment/inconvenience".

I wish SE had the same mentality.
#95 Jan 19 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
lewl

You're equating FFXI to a good MMO. There's a huge difference. And if you carried the failed concepts of FFXI to a new MMO, you're going to wind up with a...failed new MMO.

See how that works?


I can sum up all of your posts into a few simple words: "Do it like WoW."

Unfortunately, if you carry successful concepts of a good MMO (WoW) into a new MMO (AION/WAR), you can still end up with a failed new MMO (AION/WAR).

At some point, you have to realize that "best" is at best a very subjective term, and you must also realize that for a lot of people, the way WoW did it is not the best way. WoW can't even hold a candle to FFXI in terms of strategy and group play.

There are many WoW players who have quit b/c there is simply nothing to do than sit around with very easily-obtained maxed out gear. Outside of PVP, WoW is simply a game of repetitive BS. A lot of re-rolling and many avatars per player, trying to get maxed gear, and then doing it again on another char. It's a huge sh-tstorm of anonymity and no accountability. It's a giant timesink that holds very little challenge for good players. Every encounter is so scripted that there is really not much variety in tactics.

WoW is a marketing machine unlike any other. I keep hearing the 10mil subscriber # getting thrown around without any regards to the fact that players in China pay just a few bucks a month to play. That number gets other people curious, so as 100 veterans quit WoW and await a new MMO, 1000 noobs rush in to see what all the fuss is about. Every person I know that has played both WoW and FFXI has spent more time playing FFXI. However, I know about 10x the number of people who have tried WoW but never heard of FFXI. To me WoW is the epitome of quantity > quality.

Their act will run dry eventually. That's why we are all here, because we are sick of the same crap boxed up in different expansion packages. They think chaining all terrains on old lands will encourage me to level up again and spend another $150 in subscriptions b/c questing 10 boars, 10 dinosaurs, and 10 tigers is their #1 way to earn money as a company. ***** that.

FFXI didn't get it perfect, but it did pretty well for a first venture by SE, and was far deeper than WoW in terms of PVE. The expansions were much more creative and the storylines were much more compelling. The one thing I don't want to see is another WoW, b/c it will likely go the same way as AION and Warhammer.

F WoW, seriously.
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FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
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75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
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#96 Jan 19 2010 at 5:35 PM Rating: Decent
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2,793 posts
insanekangaroo wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:


lewl

You're equating FFXI to a good MMO. There's a huge difference. And if you carried the failed concepts of FFXI to a new MMO, you're going to wind up with a...failed new MMO.

See how that works?



I ask again. Why are you even here? You hated FF11 and you will probably hate FF14. Please return to the WoW foum where you belong.

Edited, Jan 19th 2010 11:52pm by insanekangaroo


PA will summarize: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/12/14/

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Snooochie wrote, concerning BST forums:
Quote:
This forum used to be all about "How can we overcome this?" Now it seems to be all about "How can someone else fix this for me?"

#97 Jan 19 2010 at 6:13 PM Rating: Default
RedGalka wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
Show me where anyone mentioned no penalty.


Show me the penalties you do want.


Read my posts please.


I did. It was all complaining about the old.


Read closer. You're smarter than that.
#98 Jan 19 2010 at 6:27 PM Rating: Default
HocusP wrote:
Quote:
You're equating FFXI to a good MMO. There's a huge difference. And if you carried the failed concepts of FFXI to a new MMO, you're going to wind up with a...failed new MMO


Your using your own opinion and stating it as a fact.


No, actually. I'm using numbers like subscription tallies...which are fact...to back up my opinion. You have nothing to back up your opinion.

Quote:
FFXI was a **** good MMO


Add emphasis there in case anyone missed it. Next time you're in a populated area, take a look around and tell me how many grass huts you see. A grass hut was a good source of shelter until things advanced and the newer forms of housing provided the same (and more) benefits without the inherent weaknesses. FFXI was a good MMO...a form of entertainment...until other games came along and demonstrated you don't need to be bludgeoned with the penalty bat every time you slip up.

Quote:
Anyway that wasn't the point, since you clearly missed the point. The point was, comparing a single player game to an MMO is not smart at all (borderline retarded).


You're wrong. MMOs and single player games both share one fundamental common thread: THEY SHOULD BOTH BE FUN.

When you're getting ************ all over the place by clueless developers who haven't yet realized that outside of Japan, severe punishments for any minor transgression just don't ******* fly. What part of that are you having a hard time understanding?

Quote:
On a successful scale, FFXI was a lot more successful then a lot of other MMOS. Everytime I bring that up, a lot of people have some drawn out excuse why the other MMOs that claimed to follow a method more aimed towards your viewpoints has failed. Its usually this game only failed because it did this, and this game only failed because it did that. Bottom-line FFXI was a lot more successful then you give it credit for, and is still going on today. It has been going at a steady (yes constant) rate for about 7-8 years now.


Ya, and EQ is still around too. Your point?
#100 Jan 19 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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2,169 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
Show me where anyone mentioned no penalty.


Show me the penalties you do want.


Read my posts please.


I did. It was all complaining about the old.


Read closer. You're smarter than that.


How condescending. You couldn't have bothered to quote and force people to comb through a hundred lines of FFXI haterade to find a needle in a haystack that reeks of WoW-fanboyism.

Anyways, lost travel time & consumables is not a penalty. XP loss is the penalty. You lose time and consumables whether you win or die.

That's why most people don't see it as a penalty, that's the expected minimum.
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FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
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www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
#101 Jan 19 2010 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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2,169 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
lewl

You're equating FFXI to a good MMO. There's a huge difference. And if you carried the failed concepts of FFXI to a new MMO, you're going to wind up with a...failed new MMO.

See how that works?


I can sum up all of your posts into a few simple words: "Do it like WoW."


Hey thar, Mr. Ranged Plugin. Ya, you. The guy who is SO about the challenge, so RABID to get punked at every turn by an MMO developer, yet just as rabidly defended the (illegitimate) third party workaround to the "challenge" said developer put into the game.

Get off your @#%^ing high horse. You're crossing the line from lame to pathetic.


Whoa, some strong personal feelings there. Please elaborate in detail. I'm interested.
____________________________
FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
LS: UnitedBBQ

www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
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