You don't even have a level that you argue at. Every single post you make repeats the same old bullsh*t that contradicts itself.
Are you talking about your posts or mine?
The FACTS, Deadgye, are that SE lost 25% of its customers in the span of one year and a quick trip over to the ZAM FFXI General forums is all it takes to see that even the people who have stuck around are largely angry, dissatisfied, and extremely jaded and cynical towards SE over virtually anything and everything.
You god **** @#%^ing ******. The FACTS are that virtually every single god **** MMO has lost 20%+ of it's customers in a single year. Your point is moot. It has zero meaning. Zilch. It's like saying "The US has a death rate of [3% of it's pop per year], it's a @#%^ing failure!" While every single country has a [3-5% death rate]. Do you not understand something this simple? You cannot @#%^ing claim the loss in customers as an effect of failure when every single other game has done the same thing, because that means every single other game is also a failure. How can you not understand this simple @#%^ing logic? It's like you're a god **** 4 year old.
I suppose the next time I insult you, you'll cry about me calling names and yadda yadda yadda.
Cry, cry, Deadgye.
Interesting how you chose to ignore the part of my statement that mentions the general attitude on the FFXI boards. See, that was two components that make up the statement. When you ignore one to pick apart the other, you're not arguing very well. TWO components, Deadgye.
And no, not every
single MMO has lost that many subscribers in one year. The bottom line is that there was a point in FFXI's history where roughly one in four people decided that they didn't like the game enough to justify paying for it anymore. In ANY business (see also: ANY business), losing 1/4 of your customers in a year should be justification for pause to consider just wtf happened. And if you either choose not to ponder what happened or choose to ignore the lessons to be learned, you don't belong in business.
The genre has evolved, Deadgye. There have been enough MMOs that have come and gone for people to get an idea of what works for them and what doesn't. You refuse to acknowledge any kind of specifics. You hold up the failures of other MMOs as if to suggest that failure is normal and as such, FFXI is an adequate model around which to base FFXIV. But can you tell me why games like Warhammer, AoC, and Aion have disappointed? Have you any clue at all? Or does exploring the reality of that situation frighten you? Like maybe you'd have to acknowledge that there are a great many reasons a game can fail to live up to expectations...expectations that are generated largely based on precedent.
Do you understand the word "precedent"?
No, it wasn't. Besides, the amount of grinding in ffxi is easily comparable with any MMO out on the market, if not less than it; including WoW.
It wasn't just the grind...it was the way you had to go about the grinding and no, FFXI's grind is not comparable to most other MMOs. Most other MMOs don't require up to (or more than) 20 hours to farm triggers for bosses each time you want to fight them. They don't require that you assemble your group and stand in one place for up to three hours at a stretch waiting for a boss to spawn that you are then required to compete with the rest of the server in order to claim. They don't require you to form a group or settle for the scraps from the FoV table.
The devs themselves have acknowledged that FFXI required too much time to get most things done which is something they wanted to address with FFXI. Are you now more knowledgeable than SE's devs? See, you can argue with me all you want but when you try to argue against points the devs themselves have brought up as issues they plan to fix with their new offering, you sort of undermine yourself.
They had a product...an MMO for PS2 in Japan...that they then decided to take global
No, they didn't.
Yes, they did. It's clearly documented that FFXI was first released for PS2 in Japan with the NA PC release coming about a year later. If it had been a flop in Japan, it never would have gone global.
You're arguing your opinion. And you do not stand for all people. A person like you would never pick up and play Demon's Souls. But there are plenty of people who have, and have fun playing the game.
I don't claim to argue for all people. Just the majority. I think you and I both know that market precedent favors my point of view far more than yours. FAR more. But if you just cuss and bluster and pretend like you're presenting a rational point of view that should be enough, amirite?
You incorrect quote parts of ffxi,
You incorrect use language English.
you have no clue what you're talking about, and you obviously didn't even know how to play the game. Case in point: You quit because you died to a chigoe, because you were running around without sneak and invisible up in an area where you didn't know where the mobs were. Nevermind that chigoes are incredibly easy to kill. Pick stuff about ffxi that's actually bad. NM spawns that can take 3+ hours and are random. Low *** drop rates on mobs that already don't spawn often. Raising a chocobo taking like 4 months. Leveling down when you die. All valid complaints about ffxi's bad parts.
I didn't quit because I died to a chigoe. As I said in my post, it was the final frustration in a long string of frustrations. I know that 90% of your arguments rely on trying to ignore facts and twist what was said to suit the points you want to make, but it's pretty dumb to try it when anyone can go back through the thread and see that you're wrong.
How does it feel?
You're just assuming this though, and there's nothing to back it up. I could just as easily say that if ffxi not giving exp for doing quests is the reason it only has 500k subscribers instead of 11M then most would call it... etc. It's entirely more likely that the player difference is mostly due to the fact that more people have access to WoW than ffxi; as ffxi hasn't been released in certain high-pop areas that WoW has. But still to come to either conclusion, both yours or mine, without actual facts (not lolAureliusSir i calls them facts) is silly.
Numbers or stfu. Trying to downplay the success of WoW is really not smart. Really. Not smart.
On topic: Using ffxi as an example- when you died there was a possibility you could lose some things:
1. Time. You lost this if you were traveling without a counterpart who can raise or without reraise, or with reraise and managed to die in some godforsaken spot where mobs don't stop looking at you. Most of the time this was negligible because you could get back to where you were easily in 10 minutes, if for some reason you couldn't just reraise. If you died in a BCNM or something and fail because of it, you lost the time spent doing the fight. Overall, unless you died in some horrible place like near Jormy then this penalty was laughable.
Let's not forget the time to farm up another 20-60 Seals to try again in the case of your BCNM example. Not exactly a trivial process.
2. Consumables. If you died and failed to die in a non-horrible spot, or didn't put reraise up, you lost the sneak/invis you used to get to this spot. If you died in a fight you sometimes lost items used in the fight. Overall a pretty laughable penalty unless you were very poor.
Consumable costs are consumable costs. The idea is that they should be voluntary from a mechanics standpoint, not mandatory. Stealth items were functionally mandatory in most higher level scenarios. Relying on a caster in your party to look after it was not a practical option in zones with sight or magic aggro mobs, and even in those situations where having a caster cast or drop invis to re-stealth a party member was not a significant risk, it was tedious. Hence it became functionally mandatory to use consumables in a player controlled market. Swap consumables for say...durability...where the cost is fixed based on NPC prices relative to quality of gear and SE can tune much of the persistent costs as they see fit.
3. Experience. When you died and homepointed, you lost about 10% of the exp required to get to the next level. About 1-4 mobs worth pre-50. 50-60 about 5-8 mobs worth, and 60-75 about 12 mobs worth. Post 50, there was little reason to not get raised; and therefore lower it to 3-5 mobs worth. And 60-75 there was little reason to not get raise 2'd, which lowered it to 3 mobs worth. It was a pitful amount that could be easily gained back in 5-10 minutes. However, you could level down- and that could be really annoying sometimes. Overall, this was the worst penalty; but it wasn't noticeable at all unless you were homepointing. I myself have never leveled down on my main job, especially at 75. Even with copious amounts of sac pulls and mistakes, the exp I got from simply doing events kept me far away from deleveling. When I did party, it was never on exp mode.
You're talking ideal situations. You're conveniently ignoring the frustration experienced by people who could go literally dozens of hours without a group invite to an xp/merit party because the job they enjoyed playing was so poorly tuned that nobody wanted them around. When you're lucky to see 3-4 hours of xp earning in the span of a week, xp loss for death stings. A lot. Again, you're thinking on too narrow a scale. If you broaden your thinking to include the entire community and consider the impact that these penalties have on all the varied players, you start to see where a "trivial" penalty to you is not so trivial to them. And when the best solution you have to offer for those people requires them to play the game in a way that is not enjoyable or impractical for them, you've endorsed failed game mechanics.
FFXIV is supposed to be more about "do what you want." That means, "don't try to progress a Gladiator because nobody wants them because of how they're tuned" is not an acceptable scenario. It means, "<x> is the flavor of the month, therefore if you want to enjoy your time in the game you need to focus your efforts on <x>" is not an acceptable scenario. Edited, Jan 24th 2010 12:51am by AureliusSir