Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

be very very quiet..... I'm talking death penaltyFollow

#152 Jan 22 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
372 posts
The armour durability has been done and I guess worked well in LOTRO, however it got a little frustrating when one had to keep returning from the wilderness to repair the said equipment. While this offers the much wanted 'real' stuff, if you're one a roll and fall to some crazy misshap which might have been completely avoidable, it does become a chore. Which, is what FFXI 'grinding back exp' came to be. But, once the weakness wore off it was business as usual and a few good chains saw you get back what you lost, imagine having to stall the party while you find someone to fix your stuff?

But I'm not completely against it, but perhaps at a lower cost and paired with a sort of status. For example, every death would knock the durability down 0.50% because if the durability is in here, chances are everything you do will affect your armour. Hits you take affect armour/shields and successful parries (on weapon, obv). I just want to see this intergrated at the kind of stage were, you can party/grind for hours and fix your stuff when you CHOOSE too, rather than be forced to by circumstances. To have that eventual state whereby one must ensure ones equipment is in til top condition ready for the next time, rather than frequent interruptions.

As for the status? Well, something along the lines of performance limiting rather than out-right incapacity. You've been beaten into unconsciousness and are not to eager for a repeat performance. A knock to your confidence. Maybe, while it's active, you don't hit as hard, or as regular. You don't block as often and the damage you take could occasionally knock you off ballance. I would like to see this, rather than healed, actually worked off and after so many fights (successful ones) you get your mojo back. As you gain in level (how ever those end up looking and managed) you require more fights to work off this status, or perhaps have differing levels of the status. Just after death -2 to every stat, five battles after death - 1 to every status.

The reason I would prefer this to simply paying a random NPC to cure you of it, is simply because it gives it relevance. It would also be some-what feared and wished to be avoided, but if you ever got it, its not the end of the world, nor would it require you to go anywhere for any length of time.

A number of MMOs have status effects after death but they last for a set period of time before they wear. I'd like to see a more interactive way of healing that effect myself. Watching my character get back into the saddle as it were.
#153 Jan 22 2010 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
20,804 posts
akelah wrote:
As for the status? Well, something along the lines of performance limiting rather than out-right incapacity. You've been beaten into unconsciousness and are not to eager for a repeat performance. A knock to your confidence. Maybe, while it's active, you don't hit as hard, or as regular. You don't block as often and the damage you take could occasionally knock you off ballance. I would like to see this, rather than healed, actually worked off and after so many fights (successful ones) you get your mojo back. As you gain in level (how ever those end up looking and managed) you require more fights to work off this status, or perhaps have differing levels of the status. Just after death -2 to every stat, five battles after death - 1 to every status.

The reason I would prefer this to simply paying a random NPC to cure you of it, is simply because it gives it relevance. It would also be some-what feared and wished to be avoided, but if you ever got it, its not the end of the world, nor would it require you to go anywhere for any length of time.

This is fundamentally the same as any type of rez sickness though, being potentially worse in certain situations (though easier than others). Instead of waiting five minutes for the sickness to wear off though you may have to run around for five minutes looking for an easy kill so that you can get back to normal killing.

I can't think of an MMORPG that has implemented rez sickness well. I think it exists because developers see that that is the way games have always been so they feel there should be a penalty even if they can't think of a reason for it to exist.

Demon Souls did something interesting with their death penalty and form of rez sickness. I can't say it was a good system, but I can at least say it served a purpose, unlike the "wait 5 minutes before you can play again" delay in most MMORPGs. I'd like to see developers experiment more.
#154 Jan 22 2010 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
It's Just a Flesh Wound
******
22,699 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Deadgye wrote:

If you're going to argue, stay consistent. Don't waver all over the place saying ffxi failed because it lost 25% of it's users in 1 year, and then post a chart backing up your claim where 2/4 of the MMOs with a higher active subscription number have done the same exact thing. (Lineage lost 30%~ from 04 to 05. And Lineage II lost 25%~ from 05 to 06.) Runescape didn't, but once again free to play MMO. And WoW didn't, but you said you're not talking about WoW.


There you go bringing up WoW again, even after I SPECIFICALLY chose a chart that excluded it. Told ya so.

You're absolutely ridiculous. Specifically mentioning that we're not talking about WoW is considered bringing up WoW again, after you specifically chose a chart that included it? You really should stop posting, because it's obvious to every single person here that not only do you have no clue what you're talking about, but you think everybody who disagrees with you is instantly wrong and an idiot for doing so. You've made so many conflicting statements to your own argument, that it's clear you don't even have an argument. But please, go on with your pathetic attempt at a debate.

I find it hilarious that you try to hard to say that you're not talking about WoW, specifically to a person who attempted to clarify with you that you're not talking about it. You come to your own conclusion(what a surprise) that I've already accused you of it. Paranoid much? This is the main reason people assume you are talking about WoW; because you deny it and attack people for assuming it before it even happens and if it's assumed that you're talking about WoW it fits perfectly with every single argument you make.

Quote:
What do most people say about Lineage and Lineage 2? Oh...that they're crap. So FFXI experiences the same decline as Lineage and Lineage 2. Interesting. Correlation...???

Besides the fact that correlation does not imply causation:

Ultima Online:   [225,000|2004]    [165,000|2005]   [40%] 
EverQuest:       [550,000|2004.5]  [375,000|2005.5] [32%] 
Asheron's Call:  [80,000 |2003]    [60,000 |2004]   [25%] 
DAoCamelot:      [250,000|2004]    [180,000|2005]   [28%] 
Tiba:            [Steadily rising to 125,000 over 6 years] 
FFXI:            [650,000|2005]    [500,000|2006]   [23%] 
Sims Online:     [100,000|2003.5]  [45,000 |2004.5] [55%] 
EVE Online:      [Steadily rising to 225,000 over 5 years] 
ToonTown Online: [Stopped after 2007?] 
Second Life:     [Dead from 03 to 06.5, then to 90,000 in 08] 
Star Wars G:     [260,000|2005]    [200,000|2006]   [23%] 
City of Heros:   [180,000|2004.5]  [155,000|2005.5] [14%] 
Dofus:           [Steadily rising to 450,000 over 3.5 years] 
EQ2:             [325,000|2005]    [175,000|2006]   [46%] 
D&D Online:      [            ]    [            ]   [44%] 
Vanguard:        [            ]    [            ]   [68%] 
LotR Online:     [            ]    [            ]   [25%] 
Tabula Rasa:     [            ]    [            ]   [40%] 
Lineage:         [2700000|2004]    [2000000|2005]   [26%] 
Linage II:       [2000000|2005]    [1400000|2006]   [30%] 
WoW:             [Steadily rising to 10000000 over 3 years]


By your own admission, every single MMO on the market except for Tiba, EVE Online, Second Life, Dofus, and WoW fail. You have no clue what the **** you are talking about. You're done here, please get the **** out.
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#155 Jan 22 2010 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
***
2,169 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
If you want to see the chart I'm referring to, change Chart2 in the url I linked to Chart1. Careful though...your e-peen might shrink a lil.


Chart1 shows WoW.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
There you go bringing up WoW again, even after I SPECIFICALLY chose a chart that excluded it. Told ya so.


oops.

AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
What do most people say about Lineage and Lineage 2? Oh...that they're crap. So FFXI experiences the same decline as Lineage and Lineage 2. Interesting. Correlation...???


logic fail
____________________________
FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
LS: UnitedBBQ

www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
#156 Jan 23 2010 at 1:49 AM Rating: Default
Deadgye wrote:

You're absolutely ridiculous. Specifically mentioning that we're not talking about WoW is considered bringing up WoW again, after you specifically chose a chart that included it?


The first chart I linked did NOT include WoW. You commented on it, so I gave the url change you'd need to see the chart that was more comprehensive.

You've been hitting the bong a little too hard in your short life, I think.

Must be tough going through life with a 3rd grade education.

Go ahead and edit that one, too, Usagi. If Deadgye is representative of the intelligence you support on these forums, he's all yours.
#157 Jan 23 2010 at 2:11 AM Rating: Decent
It's Just a Flesh Wound
******
22,699 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Deadgye wrote:

You're absolutely ridiculous. Specifically mentioning that we're not talking about WoW is considered bringing up WoW again, after you specifically chose a chart that included it?


The first chart I linked did NOT include WoW. You commented on it, so I gave the url change you'd need to see the chart that was more comprehensive.

You've been hitting the bong a little too hard in your short life, I think.

Must be tough going through life with a 3rd grade education.

Go ahead and edit that one, too, Usagi. If Deadgye is representative of the intelligence you support on these forums, he's all yours.


Let's go through this again, for your sake, since you apparently don't have the processing power to understand what's going on.

*
Quote:
And then, continuing with the trend, YOU will bring up some other MMO like I'm comparing.


*At this point I've made no mention of WoW at all, nor another MMO. I called you out on it. And questioned your "lost 75% of their customers in 1 year" comment.

*
Quote:
It's inevitable. You've gone that way with every other argument we've had.

lulzworthy safeface. You then followed up by linking a chart to demonstrate why you think FFXI is a failed MMO. It only shows a 25% customer loss, and you correct your statement. You continue on to give more 'facts' about why ffxi fails and says that it claims only <3% of the 20+M people that play MMOs.

*I point out that by that logic, the chart you've just linked shows that either A. Every MMO out there is fail. or B. You're retarded.

*You bring up chart 1, which mentions WoW.

*I point out that 2/4 of the games on this new chart, also have the same customer loss that ffxi did, and that 1/4 of the games you've attempted to say you're not talking about (WoW.)

*You say I'm bringing up WoW again, saying you specifically chose a chart that excluded it, after you just told me to look at a chart which included it.

*I pointed this out, along with the fact that pretty much every MMO has experienced the same drop as ffxi, if not more.

So there's two things that could have happened. A. You thought that by not providing a direct link to one of the charts you specifically told me to look at, it means you didn't bring up one of the 4 new MMOs mentioned on it and everyone is just supposed to know to ignore it. or B. You're retarded. I'm going to go ahead and say that since two unrelated "either A. or B." occurrences have the choice "You're retarded." that it's the correct one.


Here's some advice. Shut the **** up before you put your foot in your mouth, again.
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#158 Jan 23 2010 at 2:44 AM Rating: Default
Deadgye wrote:


Let's go through this again, for your sake, since you apparently don't have the processing power to understand what's going on.


Sure, only this time, sober up before you try, okay? Your tears sustain me. Your stupid commentary is just icing on the cake.
#159 Jan 23 2010 at 6:37 AM Rating: Decent
It's Just a Flesh Wound
******
22,699 posts
Quote:
Sure, only this time, sober up before you try, okay? Your tears sustain me. Your stupid commentary is just icing on the cake.


Proof, if nothing else, that you have no legitimate retort- because I'm right.
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#160 Jan 23 2010 at 10:21 AM Rating: Default
Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
Sure, only this time, sober up before you try, okay? Your tears sustain me. Your stupid commentary is just icing on the cake.


Proof, if nothing else, that you have no legitimate retort- because I'm right.


No, just proof that half the crap you wrote in your previous post was unintelligible. Hence my request that you try again.

Or...better yet...how about you stop trying to be something you're not...namely an apt debater...and get back to the topic at hand. You've invested so much energy trying to make me wrong it wouldn't surprise me that you've forgotten what it is.
#161 Jan 23 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
It's Just a Flesh Wound
******
22,699 posts
So you can't even follow a simple recap of events? Pretty sad, but not surprising considering the lack of intellect displayed by your previous contradicting posts.

It's good that you want to stop talking about how your argument is a crock of ****, but pathetic that you still hold onto the thought that you're right and everybody else is wrong. All you've done is spout "I hate ffxi and it's a fact that it's a failure" while posting "facts to support your claim" that do anything but that. If you could manage to post something on topic, without the astonishingly massive amount of incorrect prejudice, your posts probably wouldn't be attacked. I agreed with your main points brought up in your first post, in fact I stated the same thing without even reading your post. But good god the amount of ******** you throw in with it is horrible, it's like watching somebody correctly outline the reasons for our economic problems, and then exclaiming that if we would have just gotten rid of all the asians we never would have had this problem. (Analogy correlation for you: Making good on topic points, throwing in incorrect ******** that shows the person is a [racist] idiot.)
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#162 Jan 23 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
703 posts
Assuming the definition of "penalty" to be the following:

5. consequence or disadvantage attached to any action, condition, etc.

...then there are multiple possibilities of what would make a good disadvantage to the player. Time, money and interest, however, are the three factors mainly affected, with interest being more of a secondary reaction to the death and the first two factors.

  • When one dies, one loses time in some way. It can be a few seconds, as in the time it takes to raise the character to keep fighting. It can be a few minutes, as in the time for weakness to wear off. It can be a few hours, depending on the time necessary to regain skill points and/or experience points. It can be a few days, depending on how severe the developers wish death penalties to be (every death needs 1 day of full recovery time to return stats to normal). It can also be permanent... Do not rule that out so quickly as an impossibility of MMO's.
  • When one dies, one loses money in some way. It can be a small amount, such as a food that is easy to create and costs very little per consumption. It can be a moderate amount, in the form of weapons and armor that need repair to be effective, or food with materials that are harder to obtain. It can be a lot of money, as is the case if the durability of armor goes beyond repair or the foods utilized are rare monster drops. It can be all of your money, assuming the monsters are capable of looting bodies... Again, not something to rule out entirely.
  • Finally, when one dies, one loses interest in some way. As mentioned, this is more of a side effect rather than a primary focus... but it should still be discussed. With death having little meaning other than a little lost time and no money, interest can start to wane quite fast. Challenge is a necessary element of any game by its very definition. If the penalties make recovery extremely difficult, interest drops immediately but may also recover under the face of determination and/or paths around it. Death can be a concept to avoid or to embrace as simply another part of the game.


Where, then, should SE draw the line? At what point should they say "enough is enough"? I have my own feelings on the subject. Death should be avoided for the most part, but embraced when it happens. Buffs should need to be reapplied, but I believe that food should remain present (if for no other reason than to remove the reality of emptying one's bowels upon death--we are being knocked out instead of killed, after all!). Upon recovery, whether by raise or by home point (or whatever system they decide to implement), the body should be weakened. Weakness should run under a gradual recovery system, rather than a 5-minute sit out period. Statistics should drop by 1/2 and slowly climb back up, ranging from Hit Points and Magic Points to Strength, Sword Skill, and Magic Casting ability. Armor and weapons should lose durability upon use, rather than death, and should be based on the material it is composed of as well as the attacks received/given (to prevent things like leather or cloth burning from flame spells, simply take number of attacks or total damage prevented into account).

These are my thoughts on the matter.
____________________________
Deila (Tarutaru F)
Server: Seraph
WHM75/BLM52/SMN34/THF24/NIN20/BRD19/WAR10/RDM7
Clothcraft: 81.6 +2; Bonecraft: 3; Fishing: 6; Leathercraft: 3
Maat: Defeated 1st try! Wootaru!

Time Mage - Help us make it a reality!
#163AureliusSir the Irrelevant, Posted: Jan 23 2010 at 1:00 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You argue at a gradeschool level. You basically repeated yourself 3 times in that post without ever saying anything worthwhile. That's how you work...you pad your posts with repetition in stead of valuable information. And then you nitpick everything else like your criticism of them somehow alleviates you of the necessity to present an intelligent argument of your own.
#164 Jan 23 2010 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
***
2,169 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Here's a bit of speculation to go along with the facts: if SE opts to launch without xp loss on death, only the extremely masochistic and or confused are going to comment, "Geez, this is a great game except what really bugs me is that when I die, I don't lose direct character progression."


What bugs me is that I'm not afraid to die, and that changes the game for some people believe it or not.
____________________________
FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
LS: UnitedBBQ

www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
#165 Jan 23 2010 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,072 posts
odinpingpong wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Here's a bit of speculation to go along with the facts: if SE opts to launch without xp loss on death, only the extremely masochistic and or confused are going to comment, "Geez, this is a great game except what really bugs me is that when I die, I don't lose direct character progression."


What bugs me is that I'm not afraid to die, and that changes the game for some people believe it or not.


Then punish yourself when you do. Could be in-game with methods I mentioned in an earlier post, or slapping your palm on a hot stove for all I care. Or are you not that diligent and are instead posturing just because it's totally unbelievable that a lot of people don't want unreasonable penalties? We're not asking for invincibility, so the whole easy mode schtick is out.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#166 Jan 23 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
**
456 posts
Quote:
The FACTS, Deadgye, are that SE lost 25% of its customers in the span of one year and a quick trip over to the ZAM FFXI General forums is all it takes to see that even the people who have stuck around are largely angry, dissatisfied, and extremely jaded and cynical towards SE over virtually anything and everything.


To see if a game is a failure (or anything for that matter) you compare it to other games (past and current) that is in the same genre. You bring up a chart that shows FFXI doing the exact same thing (declining 25%) as every other MMO besides WoW. FFXI actually has done better then all of those other MMos, by staying constant for 3-4 years after the immediate decline. So based on your logic of failure, either WoW is the only successful MMO, or your retarded and your idea of failure is completely misguided. Failure in its definition does have different meanings to different people but it usually means something around completely falling flat on its face. Instead of admitting that you were wrong and it was actually far more successful than you have ever given it credit, you decide to stay stubborn and disregard your own facts (that proves our point more then yours), and stay a FFXI hater-boy. Whether you liked FFXI or not isn't the issue, numbers don't lie and thats on top of SE not selling games to the biggest region that plays MMO's (where half of WoW subscriptions are).

#167 Jan 23 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Default
HocusP wrote:
Quote:
The FACTS, Deadgye, are that SE lost 25% of its customers in the span of one year and a quick trip over to the ZAM FFXI General forums is all it takes to see that even the people who have stuck around are largely angry, dissatisfied, and extremely jaded and cynical towards SE over virtually anything and everything.


To see if a game is a failure (or anything for that matter) you compare it to other games (past and current) that is in the same genre. You bring up a chart that shows FFXI doing the exact same thing (declining 25%) as every other MMO besides WoW. FFXI actually has done better then all of those other MMos, by staying constant for 3-4 years after the immediate decline. So based on your logic of failure, either WoW is the only successful MMO, or your retarded and your idea of failure is completely misguided. Failure in its definition does have different meanings to different people but it usually means something around completely falling flat on its face. Instead of admitting that you were wrong and it was actually far more successful than you have ever given it credit, you decide to stay stubborn and disregard your own facts (that proves our point more then yours), and stay a FFXI hater-boy. Whether you liked FFXI or not isn't the issue, numbers don't lie and thats on top of SE not selling games to the biggest region that plays MMO's (where half of WoW subscriptions are).



No, what brutalized FFXI was that it was a game shipped with dated concepts about MMO designed derived from prior MMOs (ie. all things worthwhile must involve a monumental grind) in conjunction with SEs customer service and communication practices. They had a product...an MMO for PS2 in Japan...that they then decided to take global. Unfortunately, they weren't as adequately versed in what the North American market would accept as would have been ideal. They still made money, but I'm not arguing from a success/failure as a business point of view. I'm arguing from a consumer standpoint. You'd have to offer a non-functional product and bloat your overhead to lose money on an MMO these days, hence making money isn't an indication of a good game.

SE didn't know any better. Now they have no excuse not to. If they want to aim this towards the Japanese/hardcore global market, they've got no business repeating themselves in press releases about how they want to aim it to a more casual market. They can't afford it. There are no shortage of people who will give them a second chance with a new MMO but if they blow it this time, there are probably almost just as many people who will never touch another SE MMO ever again.

From an objective consumer point of view, SE deserves a second chance. They designed FFXI around the concepts that were present in other games at the time. From a business perspective, they've got a powerful opportunity to make good on the full benefits of an MMO. It's up to them to be smart about it. It's up to them to listen when the overwhelming majority of MMO gamers say they don't want to be punished five fold for every death. It's up to them to demonstrate they've learned that regardless of the dmeands on MMO developers to keep their players interested from month to month in order to keep subscriptions active, they have to make the process FUN. Playability has to be the focus, not time sink traps that, 2-3 years down the road, have players looking back and saying, "Ya, that wasn't really all that great but I've come this far now and it would be a shame to abandon everything to find something else."

Stop defending FFXI and I'll stop ripping it apart. It's really that simple. Accept your minority place when you defend it. Accept your minority place when you talk about the virtues of hardcore games. Accept the reality that unless SE wants hundreds of thousands of people labeling them as liars and devious money grubbing idiots, FFXIV IS going to be a more casual game. By all means toss your opinions into any discussion that crops up, but have some humility about it and be realistic about where your opinions are coming from: a minority segment of the gaming population that no developer is interested in catering to right now.

XP loss on death is stupid. More people would agree than disagree. Nobody does themselves any credit stroking their e-peen and talking about how they LOVE to be punished for every mistake. They LOVE to be punished for the mistakes of their group members. They LOVE to be punished for ISP hiccups, power outages, and DDOS attacks. There are so many ways to die in an MMO that have nothing to do with skill or a lack thereof that piling on the penalties is bad design.

People will learn to play the game out of a desire to be successful. That's all they need. The don't need an arm's length list of penalties as motivation to do better. We're beyond the Dark Ages now.
#168 Jan 23 2010 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
*
182 posts
Final Fantasy XI was my first online game, so I was used to the penalty from dying. I personally prefer EXP loss to durability loss in general in a game like FFXI, because, like someone mentioned earlier, if you die in an EXP party, you can just earn it back by continuing on. Since FFXI is a party based game, and it can take a long time to form a party, get to a camp site and buff up, if your durability got too low then you would have had to run all the way back to a city and back again, which with popular camping spots could have taken 30 minutes or more if you didn't have warp or a Chocobo handy, in which you could have just earnt the same EXP back by continuing to fight in that amount of time.

I was playing Champions Online recently and I found out that they have no death penalty at all! It actually shocked me a lot, and whenever I died in a mission instance, all that happened was you pop back at the beginning and run at the mobs again and again, slowly taking their HP down each time. It felt like there wasn't a NEED for strategy anymore. So I don't think it would be a good idea to have no penalty at all in a game like Final Fantasy XIV where, if it's anything like FFXI, the developers would want you to think about the situation and find the best way to conquer it rather than running head-first into it over and over again.
#169 Jan 23 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
899 posts
One thing that bugs me about ppl who call FFXI is a fail game is that it took them few years of playing to actually notice that , I'd call FFXI a successful game that even the ones who later rejected it played it for so many years...

Beside , what game doesn't lose customers ? ppl grow up and life changes for some and if FFXI didn't lose customers why would SE make a new game ... they could easily add new expansion. BF:BC was a good game yet hardly anyone online now , does that game fail ?

One thing I'd like to add: exp lose was so small for pre53 (1k if HP, check wiki if you have any doubt) that you can recover easily in 4-10 mobs (in a party), later on the game was made easier so you can recover in a single merit party.

Quote:
Then punish yourself when you do. Could be in-game with methods I mentioned in an earlier post, or slapping your palm on a hot stove for all I care. Or are you not that diligent and are instead posturing just because it's totally unbelievable that a lot of people don't want unreasonable penalties? We're not asking for invincibility, so the whole easy mode schtick is out.


With all due respect , the whole penalty of anything is to show who know from the ppl who don't know , the is not elitist as much as preventing the game to be suited to half-monkey-brain standard. My old shell believed that zombie tactics was better then actually setting up alliance for any event. it sucked not due to losing exp ( LS parties ) but coz we looked like retards, later on when done the same event with a well organized LS with 0 deaths you notice the difference. (KS99 wyrm, Throw more BLMs and spam nukes VS Fire resist set, control TP given and get it down slowly)
____________________________
Falasi of Bismarck.
THF75/WAR75/BLU75/RNG75/DRK75/MNK75/SAM66
ZM:done. PM:done. AM:done.
Assault: Captain
#170 Jan 23 2010 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,169 posts
Seriha wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Here's a bit of speculation to go along with the facts: if SE opts to launch without xp loss on death, only the extremely masochistic and or confused are going to comment, "Geez, this is a great game except what really bugs me is that when I die, I don't lose direct character progression."


What bugs me is that I'm not afraid to die, and that changes the game for some people believe it or not.


Then punish yourself when you do. Could be in-game with methods I mentioned in an earlier post, or slapping your palm on a hot stove for all I care. Or are you not that diligent and are instead posturing just because it's totally unbelievable that a lot of people don't want unreasonable penalties? We're not asking for invincibility, so the whole easy mode schtick is out.


What I am describing is a slightly higher game-imposed penalty that has been around in most MMOs to make death a little more feared while adding a little more rush to near-death encounters.

What you are describing is a self-imposed penalty, also known as masochism, also known as the word that is butchered and misused by everyone who's used it in this thread, also known as the word that people use when they have no idea what they are talking about.
____________________________
FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
LS: UnitedBBQ

www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
#171 Jan 23 2010 at 4:30 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,072 posts
It's masochism whether SE slaps your wrist (and demanding it happen) or you do it yourself. It's utter hypocrisy to suggest otherwise. However, the ultimate difference is one side is suggesting a choice (No penalty and/or self-imposed) while the other is forcing their hand (You don't fear, you don't learn, or whatever tripe is used as justification).

Time sinks do not equate to difficulty.

Death penalties are a time sink.

You're looking in the wrong place for your challenge, or you're in denial about having masochistic tendencies. Take your pick, but sh*t can be hard without a death penalty. It's just up to SE to challenge our skill rather than our free time.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2010 5:39pm by Seriha
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#172 Jan 23 2010 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,169 posts
Seriha wrote:
It's masochism whether SE slaps your wrist (and demanding it happen) or you do it yourself. It's utter hypocrisy to suggest otherwise. However, the ultimate difference is one side is suggesting a choice (No penalty and/or self-imposed) while the other is forcing their hand (You don't fear, you don't learn, or whatever tripe is used as justification).

Time sinks do not equate to difficulty.

Death penalties are a time sink.

You're looking in the wrong place for your challenge, or you're in denial about having masochistic tendencies. Take your pick, but sh*t can be hard without a death penalty. It's just up to SE to challenge our skill rather than our free time.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2010 5:39pm by Seriha


Masochism is taking pleasure in being abused. I'm not taking pleasure in dying. I'm taking pleasure in escaping death b/c dying sucks more when the penalties are higher. I prefer more risk. That is not masochism in any way, shape, or form.
____________________________
FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
LS: UnitedBBQ

www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
#173 Jan 23 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Default
odinpingpong wrote:
Seriha wrote:
It's masochism whether SE slaps your wrist (and demanding it happen) or you do it yourself. It's utter hypocrisy to suggest otherwise. However, the ultimate difference is one side is suggesting a choice (No penalty and/or self-imposed) while the other is forcing their hand (You don't fear, you don't learn, or whatever tripe is used as justification).

Time sinks do not equate to difficulty.

Death penalties are a time sink.

You're looking in the wrong place for your challenge, or you're in denial about having masochistic tendencies. Take your pick, but sh*t can be hard without a death penalty. It's just up to SE to challenge our skill rather than our free time.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2010 5:39pm by Seriha


Masochism is taking pleasure in being abused. I'm not taking pleasure in dying. I'm taking pleasure in escaping death b/c dying sucks more when the penalties are higher. I prefer more risk. That is not masochism in any way, shape, or form.


You can't always escape it, and that's the point. And it's more like sado-masochistic, because the penalties apply across the board, not just to you. Skill is not the concern. It's not the issue. I was known as a solid, versatile player in groups and I still died. I fell out of favor with one LS because they were in a slump and I opted to sit out on a Sky night because they were wiping altogether too much. Out of the 22 people they brought to sky that night, 7 of them deleveled before the night was over (and Kirin despawned). They were proud of it. They wore it like a badge of honor. So let's not present any illusions that death penalties discourage sloppy play.

You're only looking at it from YOUR point of view. Big picture. Think on the community scale. The benefits you claim that come from an xp loss on death scenario exist only in your mind based on your narrow view of how you approach the game with your friends/LS. You're obviously not thinking about the casual player who plays for 30 minutes and when it's all said and done, they finish with a deficit because they got jumped by respawns towards the end of their session. You're not thinking about players with moderate skill levels/time restrictions who are put off from attempting more challenging content because they don't have the time to recover from the learning process afterwards. Penalties to character progression from death are the anti-thesis of casual friendly.

Period.

And if you want to argue that point, do so from a community perspective...it's not all about you.
#174 Jan 23 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
703 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
And if you want to argue that point, do so from a community perspective...it's not all about you.


And when the community gets together and decides that they want an easy-mode game? The majority is not always right... nor should it always get what it wants.

They just have influence on their side.
#175 Jan 23 2010 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,523 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:

And if you want to argue that point, do so from a community perspective...it's not all about you.


Sup.

I'm back poking the troll. I love that you wrote this here. It made my day. Oh the irony.
____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#176 Jan 23 2010 at 8:20 PM Rating: Excellent
**
736 posts
Quote:
And when the community gets together and decides that they want an easy-mode game? The majority is not always right... nor should it always get what it wants.



Back in the day, when the genre was still fledgling and sans pretty pictures, a few particularly 'hardcore' entries to the ranks had the concept of the permanent death of your character. This was, predictably, called Permadeath. Permadeath appealed to only the nichest of the niche, but it's supporters defended it fiercely. "Death is more exciting!""But we don't want to lose our progress!""Do you want the game to be easy?""Don't you want to be free to experiment?"

Ahh. The more things change...

What kills me about this argument is that both sides are Right. Death penalties exist on a sliding scale, wherever it's put elicits a series of pros and cons you can only have an opinion about on a personal level. What constitutes "harsh" or "easy" or "too much" or "not enough" or "exciting" or "restrictive" is all entirely subjective, there's no one answer guaranteed to satisfy everyone.

Knowing they couldn't possibly make everyone happy, all can Squeenix can do is base their decision off the genre's opinion of death penalties currently. Maybe a little harder, maybe a little easier, but you'll never see something like Permadeath.

Does that mean the genre's changing? Of course.
But, look around, the entire industry is. The games your foregamers played are brutal in comparison to the titles released now. Just look at the transformations within a single series. Have you ever played Final Fantasy 1?

I'm not saying this is a good thing, or a bad thing...it just is.

Edited, Jan 23rd 2010 9:54pm by Zemzelette
#177 Jan 23 2010 at 8:27 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,072 posts
Deila wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
And if you want to argue that point, do so from a community perspective...it's not all about you.


And when the community gets together and decides that they want an easy-mode game? The majority is not always right... nor should it always get what it wants.

They just have influence on their side.


If this is what wins one 500k subscribers instead of 11 million, then most would call it a poor business decision. Even if such a game lasts 2 years at an 11 million mark because it's too easy and people get bored because they've blown through everything, it'd take the 500k one, the more difficult, 44 years to match their profit. Pardon me while I go chuckle at the impossibility of an MMO lasting that long and consistently.

Realistically, we shouldn't expect XIV to start that high. I'd honestly consider a million users a reasonable goal given franchise popularity. Whether the number rises or falls shortly after launch depends on SE's target audience, and they've claimed it the casuals. Being a niche group doesn't make one any more intelligent or right in this matter. It's just different taste. Casual opinion dictates harsh penalties are in bad taste. You've still got yourself, though, if you REALLY want it (and potential community scorn as you penalize yourself to play by your own rules). Avoidance of that reality suggests to me that they don't want it, either. Can't let the casuals have an advantage, after all. So, we're back to trying to mask it as an adrenaline rush or some elite group that "gets it" because "That's how things should be!" since someone else did a long time ago.

Yeah, times never change. AFK throwing out appliances as I've been enlightened to the one true path. I'll appreciate my dinners more after gathering wood to start fires instead of pushing a button on a microwave.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#178 Jan 23 2010 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
*****
12,622 posts
I don't understand the point behind penalties in games like FFXI or otherwise. All it does is make leveling your character *in one facet or job* much harder and frustrating than it needs to be. MMOs are ultimately about a feeling of accomplishment of your goals and building your character. Elite Gear and epic quests are the real test of a character, not how many bum flipping rabbits and orcs you can kill ad nauseum.

For the life of me, I will never understand why someone feels the need to grind Red Mage or Paladin or ANY other job in XI forever and a decade when you can simply run to your moghouse and change jobs on the fly. The same thing goes for FFXIV especially, since simply changing your weapon or gear will essentially mean a class change.

It seems ludicrous that when a game has as much content and time sinks (like travel time) that these MMOs do, that people latch on to the archaic theory that fear of penalty will result in better players. It simply doesn't. None of these penalties kept people from showing up in Qufim with their level 10 gear. None of these penalties made everyone more capable of buying the leet BCNM spells for their mage jobs..

IN FACT, the XP loss system and deleveling penalties actually detracted some people from having up-to-level gear for fear of being naked if they deleveled. Since you only have a finite amount of room to carry stuff in and drops = money, it was a major reason why people would not carry around a set of lower level armor in case of death. I can't even count the number of times we'd have a nerfed BLM in our party who lost a pair of +int rings due to delevel or even a couple of times where a pally would lose a breastplate or legpiece when the RRWOOOOOWWR *thud* music chimed it's hateful little tune.

People who champion XP penalties and deleveling are pure 100% idiots. Not only do you ruin the enjoyment of an already time sink heavy genre of gaming but you insist that peeing on everybody elses cheerios is the only way to make the game better when you have been proven flat out wrong by WoW. Not that I'm saying every game should copy WoW.. In fact, that's clearly why I support FFXIV and its levelless system. Some of you turn a complete blind eye to some of the game breaking mechanics of the previous penalty, and for what? You want an "I'm harder core than everybody else" badge?

Edited, Jan 23rd 2010 10:15pm by Lefein

Edited, Jan 23rd 2010 10:16pm by Lefein
____________________________
Blah
#179 Jan 23 2010 at 10:10 PM Rating: Default
**
456 posts
[
Quote:
They still made money, but I'm not arguing from a success/failure as a business point of view. I'm arguing from a consumer standpoint.


WOW, After this statement I'm not responding to anything you say on here again. You are not arguing from a success/failure as a business point of view, are you serious? You brought up CHARTS with subscription numbers and FAILED horribly, now instead of admitting that, you try to back out of everything you brought up as a "fact". Wow, lol just Wow. As far as customer standpoint, you are basically going off of forums that are obviously bias. If your happy with a game you have no reason to be on a forum in the first place. I can find bad remarks about every game on forums, and forums is the minority of the people that actually play the game.

Quote:
XP loss on death is stupid


Once again an opinion and I basically stopped reading after this. Its ok to say I think XP loss is stupid (but knowing you), you actually think because you say that it is stupid, means its a fact that XP loss is stupid.

Quote:
More people would agree than disagree


Based on....(what facts?), Let me guess, A forum? Even if that bogus statement was true, that doesn't mean more people is right. More people than not would want a million dollars instantly too, but that would just cause more harm to the economy, by lowering the value on money. I'm sure more kids would want a flying donkey in the game as well, that don't mean you add a flying donkey. Since when did "more people" make whatever they wanted right? I'm not saying everything I want is right either, but just because (you think) more people want something, what makes that right.



Edited, Jan 23rd 2010 11:12pm by HocusP

Edited, Jan 23rd 2010 11:12pm by HocusP
#180 Jan 23 2010 at 11:05 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
899 posts
Quote:
IN FACT, the XP loss system and deleveling penalties actually detracted some people from having up-to-level gear for fear of being naked if they deleveled. Since you only have a finite amount of room to carry stuff in and drops = money, it was a major reason why people would not carry around a set of lower level armor in case of death. I can't even count the number of times we'd have a nerfed BLM in our party who lost a pair of +int rings due to delevel or even a couple of times where a pally would lose a breastplate or legpiece when the RRWOOOOOWWR *thud* music chimed it's hateful little tune.


You sound like whenever you die; you lose all your exp and directly delvl (not just the 10% needed). Personally I carried my gears until I reached half-point mark into level then sold my old equips , sure I'd have to farm in between (Sometimes) but hey! extra gils is extra gils. Beside, drop from EXP parties' targets usually flood the market thus having small to none profit (few exceptions) even then assuming you have 3 sets (48 spots) oil/powder/3 types of food (+5) you still have at least 7 rooms. (BLMs are exception also but that’s related to gear choices and multiple staffs rather then exp lose).

Few ppl suggested exp lose with no delvling which is fine in my book.

One question though , how does any PvE focused game deal with death penalty ?
____________________________
Falasi of Bismarck.
THF75/WAR75/BLU75/RNG75/DRK75/MNK75/SAM66
ZM:done. PM:done. AM:done.
Assault: Captain
#181 Jan 24 2010 at 12:26 AM Rating: Decent
It's Just a Flesh Wound
******
22,699 posts
Quote:
You argue at a gradeschool level. You basically repeated yourself 3 times in that post without ever saying anything worthwhile. That's how you work...you pad your posts with repetition in stead of valuable information. And then you nitpick everything else like your criticism of them somehow alleviates you of the necessity to present an intelligent argument of your own.


You don't even have a level that you argue at. Every single post you make repeats the same old ******** that contradicts itself.

Quote:
The FACTS, Deadgye, are that SE lost 25% of its customers in the span of one year and a quick trip over to the ZAM FFXI General forums is all it takes to see that even the people who have stuck around are largely angry, dissatisfied, and extremely jaded and cynical towards SE over virtually anything and everything.


You god **** ******* ******. The FACTS are that virtually every single god **** MMO has lost 20%+ of it's customers in a single year. Your point is moot. It has zero meaning. Zilch. It's like saying "The US has a death rate of [3% of it's pop per year], it's a ******* failure!" While every single country has a [3-5% death rate]. Do you not understand something this simple? You cannot ******* claim the loss in customers as an effect of failure when every single other game has done the same thing, because that means every single other game is also a failure. How can you not understand this simple ******* logic? It's like you're a god **** 4 year old.

Quote:
No, what brutalized FFXI was that it was a game shipped with dated concepts about MMO designed derived from prior MMOs (ie. all things worthwhile must involve a monumental grind)

No, it wasn't. Besides, the amount of grinding in ffxi is easily comparable with any MMO out on the market, if not less than it; including WoW.

Quote:
They had a product...an MMO for PS2 in Japan...that they then decided to take global

No, they didn't.

Quote:
I'm arguing from a consumer standpoint.

You're arguing your opinion. And you do not stand for all people. A person like you would never pick up and play Demon's Souls. But there are plenty of people who have, and have fun playing the game.

Quote:
Stop defending FFXI and I'll stop ripping it apart. It's really that simple. Accept your minority place when you defend it. Accept your minority place when you talk about the virtues of hardcore games.

Listen, if you would actually use ffxi bad points to badmouth it, none of us would have a problem. The fact of the matter is that you don't. You incorrect quote parts of ffxi, you have no clue what you're talking about, and you obviously didn't even know how to play the game. Case in point: You quit because you died to a chigoe, because you were running around without sneak and invisible up in an area where you didn't know where the mobs were. Nevermind that chigoes are incredibly easy to kill. Pick stuff about ffxi that's actually bad. NM spawns that can take 3+ hours and are random . Low *** drop rates on mobs that already don't spawn often. Raising a chocobo taking like 4 months. Leveling down when you die. All valid complaints about ffxi's bad parts.

Quote:
If this is what wins one 500k subscribers instead of 11 million, then most would call it a poor business decision. Even if such a game lasts 2 years at an 11 million mark because it's too easy and people get bored because they've blown through everything, it'd take the 500k one, the more difficult, 44 years to match their profit. Pardon me while I go chuckle at the impossibility of an MMO lasting that long and consistently.


You're just assuming this though, and there's nothing to back it up. I could just as easily say that if ffxi not giving exp for doing quests is the reason it only has 500k subscribers instead of 11M then most would call it... etc. It's entirely more likely that the player difference is mostly due to the fact that more people have access to WoW than ffxi; as ffxi hasn't been released in certain high-pop areas that WoW has. But still to come to either conclusion, both yours or mine, without actual facts (not lolAureliusSir i calls them facts) is silly.

On topic: Using ffxi as an example- when you died there was a possibility you could lose some things:
1. Time. You lost this if you were traveling without a counterpart who can raise or without reraise, or with reraise and managed to die in some godforsaken spot where mobs don't stop looking at you. Most of the time this was negligible because you could get back to where you were easily in 10 minutes, if for some reason you couldn't just reraise. If you died in a BCNM or something and fail because of it, you lost the time spent doing the fight. Overall, unless you died in some horrible place like near Jormy then this penalty was laughable.

2. Consumables. If you died and failed to die in a non-horrible spot, or didn't put reraise up, you lost the sneak/invis you used to get to this spot. If you died in a fight you sometimes lost items used in the fight. Overall a pretty laughable penalty unless you were very poor.

3. Experience. When you died and homepointed, you lost about 10% of the exp required to get to the next level. About 1-4 mobs worth pre-50. 50-60 about 5-8 mobs worth, and 60-75 about 12 mobs worth. Post 50, there was little reason to not get raised; and therefore lower it to 3-5 mobs worth. And 60-75 there was little reason to not get raise 2'd, which lowered it to 3 mobs worth. It was a pitful amount that could be easily gained back in 5-10 minutes. However, you could level down- and that could be really annoying sometimes. Overall, this was the worst penalty; but it wasn't noticeable at all unless you were homepointing. I myself have never leveled down on my main job, especially at 75. Even with copious amounts of sac pulls and mistakes, the exp I got from simply doing events kept me far away from deleveling. When I did party, it was never on exp mode.

If this was to be transferred over to ffxiv, I would have no problem; but I would rather there be some changes. Mainly: make it easier to have reraise on at all times, and to get rid of deleveling.
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#182 Jan 24 2010 at 1:08 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
703 posts
Zemzelette wrote:
Back in the day, when the genre was still fledgling and sans pretty pictures, a few particularly 'hardcore' entries to the ranks had the concept of the permanent death of your character. This was, predictably, called Permadeath. Permadeath appealed to only the nichest of the niche, but it's supporters defended it fiercely. "Death is more exciting!""But we don't want to lose our progress!""Do you want the game to be easy?""Don't you want to be free to experiment?"

Ahh. The more things change...

What kills me about this argument is that both sides are Right. Death penalties exist on a sliding scale, wherever it's put elicits a series of pros and cons you can only have an opinion about on a personal level. What constitutes "harsh" or "easy" or "too much" or "not enough" or "exciting" or "restrictive" is all entirely subjective, there's no one answer guaranteed to satisfy everyone.

Knowing they couldn't possibly make everyone happy, all can Squeenix can do is base their decision off the genre's opinion of death penalties currently. Maybe a little harder, maybe a little easier, but you'll never see something like Permadeath.

Does that mean the genre's changing? Of course.
But, look around, the entire industry is. The games your foregamers played are brutal in comparison to the titles released now. Just look at the transformations within a single series. Have you ever played Final Fantasy 1?

I'm not saying this is a good thing, or a bad thing...it just is.


First off, in regards to Final Fantasy 1? Played it. Beat it. A couple times. I hated having to exit the dungeon because I ran out of healing potions... and after getting SO far, too! Seriously, beat Tiamat and had to exit. Even though Chaos was coming RIGHT up, I had no potions left. Spells were a very limited commodity in that game (and I speak, of course, of the NES version of the game, not the remade "Oh, I have MP now!" DS or PS versions).

Second, you are quite correct--Both sides of this argument have every right to state what they want and how they want this new MMO to be formed. However, SE has to slide that scale (as you mentioned) so that the balance is well thought-out. If one can have zombie rushes without anything more than a few dents in their armor and a few minutes of traveling back to their boss, where's the incentive to keep playing the game? E-Peen items? And if the slide goes too far, where's the incentive to keep playing? The game gives you an inch and then takes a mile... Talk about traveling backwards!

To say that death, in itself, is a big enough penalty is very vague and hardly presenting of a challenge. Death should have SOME meaning. Take, for example, a river of lava. You have enough health to cross to the other side before you take enough damage, but you die after reaching the shore. Congratulations... You just crossed a river of lava. With a raiser on the other side (or with reraise on), you've just bypassed a challenging obstacle without a care. You waste a few precious moments recasting some buffs and continue onward. To me, that breeds the following thought...

"Alright, send the white mage over. After he raises, we'll all wade across. The black mage can tractor anyone else who doesn't make it all the way."

Third, in regards to Permadeath, I think you're right on that account. Permadeath is a "niche within a niche", only for those truly hardcore enough to dedicate hours upon hours of work only to have it backfire due to a simple mistake... A mistake they'll most likely NEVER make again. Hence, it presents an incredible amount of challenge for those who truly desire it and also breeds very tactical and cautious players (with some attitude at times to boot).

Finally, change is good... but is this really change? Or is this simply toning down?
#183 Jan 24 2010 at 1:50 AM Rating: Default
HocusP wrote:
You are not arguing from a success/failure as a business point of view, are you serious? You brought up CHARTS with subscription numbers and FAILED horribly, now instead of admitting that, you try to back out of everything you brought up as a "fact". Wow, lol just Wow. As far as customer standpoint, you are basically going off of forums that are obviously bias. If your happy with a game you have no reason to be on a forum in the first place. I can find bad remarks about every game on forums, and forums is the minority of the people that actually play the game.


If you're happy with a game, you have no reason to be on a forum in the first place?

Really?

You wouldn't use a forum to learn more about the game? Like how to make better use of your character based on your playstyle and group role? Or learning about different strategies for different encounters? Venting about dumb players? Discussing the game in general?

Because based on what you just said, the only reason to visit a forum is to ***** about the game. I know that happens a lot on the FFXI boards, but that's FFXI. Interesting point of view. Dumb, but interesting.

Quote:
Quote:
They still made money, but I'm not arguing from a success/failure as a business point of view. I'm arguing from a consumer standpoint.


WOW, After this statement I'm not responding to anything you say on here again.


Nothing would make me happier. bainao.
#184 Jan 24 2010 at 2:31 AM Rating: Good
**
736 posts
Quote:

Finally, change is good... but is this really change? Or is this simply toning down?


Essentially, Yes.
With a "but".

In your typical old school RPG you pinched each potion preciously you managed your money miserly. Nowadays, your practically swimming in savings with a consumable cache you don't have to think twice about. The metrics, the numbers behind a game, are getting easier all the time.

That sounds like awful news, doesn't it?
Easier all the time? Even if your comfortable with things how they stand now, whose to say things won't be what you consider "easy mode" tomorrow?

Although games in a strictly numbers sense are getting easier, games are relying on numbers to dictate what a challenge is less. This is a good, good thing. Basic Subtraction, Addition, and Timing has it's limits, the human brain can perform so many other functions. How's your dancing? Howabout your rhythm? Your typing speed? Your singing? Drawing? Social skills? Your Japanese?

Experimentation in the realm of online gaming and various input devices is akin to the blind grasping of an infant. It's a bit awkward now, not mature enough to challenge past your most basic social and motor skills, but it has so much room to grow.


Edited, Jan 24th 2010 3:53am by Zemzelette
#185 Jan 24 2010 at 2:40 AM Rating: Default
Deadgye wrote:
You don't even have a level that you argue at. Every single post you make repeats the same old bullsh*t that contradicts itself.


Are you talking about your posts or mine?

Quote:
Quote:
The FACTS, Deadgye, are that SE lost 25% of its customers in the span of one year and a quick trip over to the ZAM FFXI General forums is all it takes to see that even the people who have stuck around are largely angry, dissatisfied, and extremely jaded and cynical towards SE over virtually anything and everything.


You god **** @#%^ing ******. The FACTS are that virtually every single god **** MMO has lost 20%+ of it's customers in a single year. Your point is moot. It has zero meaning. Zilch. It's like saying "The US has a death rate of [3% of it's pop per year], it's a @#%^ing failure!" While every single country has a [3-5% death rate]. Do you not understand something this simple? You cannot @#%^ing claim the loss in customers as an effect of failure when every single other game has done the same thing, because that means every single other game is also a failure. How can you not understand this simple @#%^ing logic? It's like you're a god **** 4 year old.


I suppose the next time I insult you, you'll cry about me calling names and yadda yadda yadda.

Cry, cry, Deadgye.

Cry moar.

Interesting how you chose to ignore the part of my statement that mentions the general attitude on the FFXI boards. See, that was two components that make up the statement. When you ignore one to pick apart the other, you're not arguing very well. TWO components, Deadgye.

TWO.

And no, not every single MMO has lost that many subscribers in one year. The bottom line is that there was a point in FFXI's history where roughly one in four people decided that they didn't like the game enough to justify paying for it anymore. In ANY business (see also: ANY business), losing 1/4 of your customers in a year should be justification for pause to consider just wtf happened. And if you either choose not to ponder what happened or choose to ignore the lessons to be learned, you don't belong in business.

The genre has evolved, Deadgye. There have been enough MMOs that have come and gone for people to get an idea of what works for them and what doesn't. You refuse to acknowledge any kind of specifics. You hold up the failures of other MMOs as if to suggest that failure is normal and as such, FFXI is an adequate model around which to base FFXIV. But can you tell me why games like Warhammer, AoC, and Aion have disappointed? Have you any clue at all? Or does exploring the reality of that situation frighten you? Like maybe you'd have to acknowledge that there are a great many reasons a game can fail to live up to expectations...expectations that are generated largely based on precedent.

Do you understand the word "precedent"?

Quote:
No, it wasn't. Besides, the amount of grinding in ffxi is easily comparable with any MMO out on the market, if not less than it; including WoW.


It wasn't just the grind...it was the way you had to go about the grinding and no, FFXI's grind is not comparable to most other MMOs. Most other MMOs don't require up to (or more than) 20 hours to farm triggers for bosses each time you want to fight them. They don't require that you assemble your group and stand in one place for up to three hours at a stretch waiting for a boss to spawn that you are then required to compete with the rest of the server in order to claim. They don't require you to form a group or settle for the scraps from the FoV table.

The devs themselves have acknowledged that FFXI required too much time to get most things done which is something they wanted to address with FFXI. Are you now more knowledgeable than SE's devs? See, you can argue with me all you want but when you try to argue against points the devs themselves have brought up as issues they plan to fix with their new offering, you sort of undermine yourself.

Quote:
Quote:
They had a product...an MMO for PS2 in Japan...that they then decided to take global

No, they didn't.


Yes, they did. It's clearly documented that FFXI was first released for PS2 in Japan with the NA PC release coming about a year later. If it had been a flop in Japan, it never would have gone global.

Quote:
You're arguing your opinion. And you do not stand for all people. A person like you would never pick up and play Demon's Souls. But there are plenty of people who have, and have fun playing the game.


I don't claim to argue for all people. Just the majority. I think you and I both know that market precedent favors my point of view far more than yours. FAR more. But if you just cuss and bluster and pretend like you're presenting a rational point of view that should be enough, amirite?

Quote:
You incorrect quote parts of ffxi,


You incorrect use language English.

Quote:
you have no clue what you're talking about, and you obviously didn't even know how to play the game. Case in point: You quit because you died to a chigoe, because you were running around without sneak and invisible up in an area where you didn't know where the mobs were. Nevermind that chigoes are incredibly easy to kill. Pick stuff about ffxi that's actually bad. NM spawns that can take 3+ hours and are random. Low *** drop rates on mobs that already don't spawn often. Raising a chocobo taking like 4 months. Leveling down when you die. All valid complaints about ffxi's bad parts.


I didn't quit because I died to a chigoe. As I said in my post, it was the final frustration in a long string of frustrations. I know that 90% of your arguments rely on trying to ignore facts and twist what was said to suit the points you want to make, but it's pretty dumb to try it when anyone can go back through the thread and see that you're wrong.

WRONG, Deadgye.

WRONG.

How does it feel?

Quote:
You're just assuming this though, and there's nothing to back it up. I could just as easily say that if ffxi not giving exp for doing quests is the reason it only has 500k subscribers instead of 11M then most would call it... etc. It's entirely more likely that the player difference is mostly due to the fact that more people have access to WoW than ffxi; as ffxi hasn't been released in certain high-pop areas that WoW has. But still to come to either conclusion, both yours or mine, without actual facts (not lolAureliusSir i calls them facts) is silly.


Numbers or stfu. Trying to downplay the success of WoW is really not smart. Really. Not smart.

Quote:
On topic: Using ffxi as an example- when you died there was a possibility you could lose some things:
1. Time. You lost this if you were traveling without a counterpart who can raise or without reraise, or with reraise and managed to die in some godforsaken spot where mobs don't stop looking at you. Most of the time this was negligible because you could get back to where you were easily in 10 minutes, if for some reason you couldn't just reraise. If you died in a BCNM or something and fail because of it, you lost the time spent doing the fight. Overall, unless you died in some horrible place like near Jormy then this penalty was laughable.


Let's not forget the time to farm up another 20-60 Seals to try again in the case of your BCNM example. Not exactly a trivial process.

Quote:
2. Consumables. If you died and failed to die in a non-horrible spot, or didn't put reraise up, you lost the sneak/invis you used to get to this spot. If you died in a fight you sometimes lost items used in the fight. Overall a pretty laughable penalty unless you were very poor.


Consumable costs are consumable costs. The idea is that they should be voluntary from a mechanics standpoint, not mandatory. Stealth items were functionally mandatory in most higher level scenarios. Relying on a caster in your party to look after it was not a practical option in zones with sight or magic aggro mobs, and even in those situations where having a caster cast or drop invis to re-stealth a party member was not a significant risk, it was tedious. Hence it became functionally mandatory to use consumables in a player controlled market. Swap consumables for say...durability...where the cost is fixed based on NPC prices relative to quality of gear and SE can tune much of the persistent costs as they see fit.

Quote:
3. Experience. When you died and homepointed, you lost about 10% of the exp required to get to the next level. About 1-4 mobs worth pre-50. 50-60 about 5-8 mobs worth, and 60-75 about 12 mobs worth. Post 50, there was little reason to not get raised; and therefore lower it to 3-5 mobs worth. And 60-75 there was little reason to not get raise 2'd, which lowered it to 3 mobs worth. It was a pitful amount that could be easily gained back in 5-10 minutes. However, you could level down- and that could be really annoying sometimes. Overall, this was the worst penalty; but it wasn't noticeable at all unless you were homepointing. I myself have never leveled down on my main job, especially at 75. Even with copious amounts of sac pulls and mistakes, the exp I got from simply doing events kept me far away from deleveling. When I did party, it was never on exp mode.


You're talking ideal situations. You're conveniently ignoring the frustration experienced by people who could go literally dozens of hours without a group invite to an xp/merit party because the job they enjoyed playing was so poorly tuned that nobody wanted them around. When you're lucky to see 3-4 hours of xp earning in the span of a week, xp loss for death stings. A lot. Again, you're thinking on too narrow a scale. If you broaden your thinking to include the entire community and consider the impact that these penalties have on all the varied players, you start to see where a "trivial" penalty to you is not so trivial to them. And when the best solution you have to offer for those people requires them to play the game in a way that is not enjoyable or impractical for them, you've endorsed failed game mechanics.

FFXIV is supposed to be more about "do what you want." That means, "don't try to progress a Gladiator because nobody wants them because of how they're tuned" is not an acceptable scenario. It means, "<x> is the flavor of the month, therefore if you want to enjoy your time in the game you need to focus your efforts on <x>" is not an acceptable scenario.


Edited, Jan 24th 2010 12:51am by AureliusSir
#186 Jan 24 2010 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
1,523 posts
In relation to Death:

In general I don't think deathpenalties should be there to pain the player. However I think certain penalties should be in place to prevent Death from being miss used as a way to progress through the game. Death in itself is a penalty, not a way to skip problems, make fights easy.



Raise sickness:

I think it's a bad way to solve a problem. I think it's there to prevent Death from becoming a minor penalty in big group battles. If it was not there one could die, be raised and continue fighting multiple times in battle. Some might even like this playing style, but for me I would rather have it be avoided.

Raise sickness for soloing is annoying however. Just waiting / wasting time sucks when nothing important is happening. It does not provide extra value to the game.

If it was up to me I would change the way raise sickness works: Instead of having a weakness debuff after raising, provide a debuff that makes you unable to raise again within 5-10 minutes. This way it wouldn't affect soloing, while preventing Death from becoming a minor penalty in big battles.



Tractor:

I don't like this spell, because it can be used for players to skip obstacles. It's used in general to place the corpse in a more convenient spot for it to raise. If it was up to me we should add a small alteration to the raise spell: have the player raise at the spot the raise spell is cast from, not his current spot. (yes like in WoW)



Corpse running:

This is a feature WoW has, FFXI doesn't have and hope FFXIV won't have either. Being able to release to a graveyard nearby and run back to your corpse in spirit form. In spirit form nothing can happen to you. You can pick a position close by yourcorpse and raise there.

The reason I don't like this feature is because it can be miss used as well to progress through a zone, avoiding obstacles.



Experience / durability loss:

These penalties just pain the player, nothing more. I guess for realism durability loss is interesting. I have no real stance towards these penalties. They are minor in my eyes.

Edited, Jan 24th 2010 10:41pm by RedGalka
____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#187 Jan 24 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
Avatar
***
2,536 posts
I have nothing against exp loss. Already used to it. Gaining it back is usually easy.

As for durability loss, this one depends on how durability plays a role in the game. Temporary durability loss is fine. I don't like permanent durability loss, though.

eg. In some games (such as DDO), let's say an item has a durability of 100/100. Using it will gradually lower its durability. Let's say you've been using it for a bit and the durability is now 60/100. You can repair it back to 100/100. However, in your item can be permanently damaged. That means your max durability is lowered to less than 100. If you've used an item for a long time, instead of having xxx/100 durability, it will now be something like xxx/80 durability.

It really sucks when an extremely valuable weapon has its max durability decreased. Multi-hit weapons will have both temporary and permanent durabilities lowered even faster. A weapon like Ridill will break twice as fast. Kclub would break 4.5x as fast.

As long as there is no permanent durability loss, then that's fine with me.


It may also be interesting (I think someone mentioned this above) to have current durability play a role in the stat boosts the item gives you.

eg. Let's say a piece of armor give you +10 vit and has a durability of 100/100. After getting knocked around for a while, the current durability lowers to 90/100, but it still gives you +10 vit. Get knocked around some more and the durability lowers to 50/100, but you still get +10 vit. However, once your durability goes down even lower, you won't get +10 vit anymore. 40-49 durability will grant you only +9 vit now. 30-39 durability will grant you +8, and so on. Once the item goes down to 0/100 durability, it is temporarily "broken" and you can't equip it until it is repaired to at least 1/100 durability.

Items can be repaired in town or by another player with the appropriate craft. A player with sufficient levels in Blacksmithing can repair a Chainmail. A player with sufficient levels in Clothcrafting can repair a Silk Robe.


Now people can look at this in two different ways:

1. Some people would think that it would be too much of a hassle and a huge annoyance.

2. Some people would think it makes things more interesting during big fights and events.

Another benefit to crafters is that it would make crafting have a bigger role than just "a method of making money." HNMLSs would want high level crafters to be around during big events. Crafters can repair items on the spot for you instead of you having to run back to town.


I personally like the durability idea if it affects your stat boosts and if there is no permanent damage to items.

But to each his own, I guess.

Edited, Jan 24th 2010 9:59am by Threx
____________________________
FF11 Server: Caitsith
Kalyna (retired, 2008)
100 Goldsmith
75 Rng, Brd
Main/Acc
Exp/Hybrid
Str/Attk
Spam/Others
#188 Jan 24 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,072 posts
Quote:
You're just assuming this though, and there's nothing to back it up. I could just as easily say that if ffxi not giving exp for doing quests is the reason it only has 500k subscribers instead of 11M then most would call it... etc. It's entirely more likely that the player difference is mostly due to the fact that more people have access to WoW than ffxi; as ffxi hasn't been released in certain high-pop areas that WoW has. But still to come to either conclusion, both yours or mine, without actual facts (not lolAureliusSir i calls them facts) is silly.


I'm... not assuming. Death Penalties might not have been the only thing that scared people away from FFXI, but it is one of key gripes in reasons I've seen people give over the years. We have FFXI, who's been around for 7 years now, and WoW who's been for 5 or 6. I dunno, I don't keep diligent tabs on it. Profits have come and gone. One game financially decimated the other. I'd love to see XIV dethrone WoW, personally, but it's not gonna happen if we get XI-2 or even a WoW clone.

Regardless, I don't see how people have less access to FFXI than WoW. Sure, SE's advertising blows and you might be lucky to find a copy of the game in a store, but that may very well be speaking of XI's popularity from the distributing end. Companies might've felt using shelf space on it wasn't profitable. Nonetheless, there is the digital download option through Direct2Drive or even Steam. People can get the game if they want it, but anyone seriously going over reviews to determine their next MMO experience probably won't give XI a chance. Some who have given it a chance and walked away probably don't wanna try again, either. People have been negative. Very negative. Us old-timers may laugh at such reviews and refute otherwise, but the newbie doesn't know or didn't know how to get around their problems. I'd personally tell anyone to stay away from XI without a friend or two around to play with. It just isn't a friendly game, and I'm including the community in that description despite the nice people you'll find here and there.

Just to echo an earlier sentiment of mine: Be inclusive, not exclusive. Easier said than done, sure, but we still know way, way, way too little about XIV itself, only the history of its developer and the game before it. I want to play with millions, not thousands. More money made means more can be put back into the game, into the community. Sure, SE could just run away and make another FFVII spin-off with it, but I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt in hoping they learned from community discontent with XI.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#189 Jan 25 2010 at 12:07 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
Masochism is taking pleasure in being abused. I'm not taking pleasure in dying. I'm taking pleasure in escaping death b/c dying sucks more when the penalties are higher. I prefer more risk. That is not masochism in any way, shape, or form.


Granted you are volunteering to subject yourself to an inevitable punishment, and claiming that it will cause you to enjoy the overall experience more, yes, that is masochism. Whether you enjoy the abuse itself or the catharsis from the abuse, the fact is that you're experience abuse-dependent pleasure.
---

You know, today, I was playing a certain game, and I can't remember the last time a video game got my heart pumping so hard. I was actually trying to catch a creature for my little sister-- a scorpion. Real bastards to find and real bastards to catch, too (I wasn't especially confident). So in preparation, I cleared out the entire area until I could find one, which takes roughly a half an hour if you've properly prepared. You've generally only got one shot before they either get away or sting you and knock you out.

So anyway, as soon as I saw that scorpion, my heart thought I was sprinting. This was about the third scorpion that I had seen, and it really sucks to have to look for another one, even though in that 30 minutes of hunting you'll catch loads of other valuable creatures (so it's far from a total waste).

That game was Animal ******* Crossing. A game where you don't really even die at all. If you get stung, you pass out and go back to your house, which is literally a one minute walk from anywhere in the entire game world, and is also the worst penalty the game imposes.

Just a simple demonstration of how anticipation of reward, rather than fear of punishment, can create a sense of excitement. It's the challenge-- the opportunity to win or lose-- not the consequence of win or loss that matters most. And likewise people often have the same emotional response to winning ten thousand dollars versus a million dollars.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#190 Jan 25 2010 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
Just a simple demonstration of how anticipation of reward, rather than fear of punishment, can create a sense of excitement. It's the challenge-- the opportunity to win or lose-- not the consequence of win or loss that matters most. And likewise people often have the same emotional response to winning ten thousand dollars versus a million dollars.


Say that again. Oh wait, I can do it for you:

Kachi wrote:
Just a simple demonstration of how anticipation of reward, rather than fear of punishment, can create a sense of excitement. It's the challenge-- the opportunity to win or lose-- not the consequence of win or loss that matters most. And likewise people often have the same emotional response to winning ten thousand dollars versus a million dollars.


and once more for emphasis:

Kachi wrote:
Just a simple demonstration of how anticipation of reward, rather than fear of punishment, can create a sense of excitement. It's the challenge-- the opportunity to win or lose-- not the consequence of win or loss that matters most. And likewise people often have the same emotional response to winning ten thousand dollars versus a million dollars.


I reckon that about covers it.
#191 Jan 25 2010 at 3:28 AM Rating: Decent
It's Just a Flesh Wound
******
22,699 posts
Quote:
I suppose the next time I insult you, you'll cry about me calling names and yadda yadda yadda.

Cry, cry, Deadgye.

Cry moar.

What are you twelve?

Quote:
Interesting how you chose to ignore the part of my statement that mentions the general attitude on the FFXI boards. See, that was two components that make up the statement. When you ignore one to pick apart the other, you're not arguing very well. TWO components, Deadgye.


First of all, you've ignored more than half the things I've said. It's amazing how many times you put your foot in your mouth. Second, =10 doesn't mean ****. Judging ffxi based on =10 is one of the most retarded things you've probably done.

Quote:
And no, not every single MMO has lost that many subscribers in one year. The bottom line is that there was a point in FFXI's history where roughly one in four people decided that they didn't like the game enough to justify paying for it anymore. In ANY business (see also: ANY business), losing 1/4 of your customers in a year should be justification for pause to consider just wtf happened. And if you either choose not to ponder what happened or choose to ignore the lessons to be learned, you don't belong in business.


"Virtually every". Try not to selectively read, I know it's hard for you. I made a god **** table for you, are you really that dense that you couldn't follow it? Do you even know what happened in the time frame when ffxi lost those customers? I gaurantee you it had nothing to do with the death penalty because the death penalty has never changed. How you managed to connect those two unrelated events together further shows why you shouldn't be posting.

Quote:
The genre has evolved, Deadgye. There have been enough MMOs that have come and gone for people to get an idea of what works for them and what doesn't. You refuse to acknowledge any kind of specifics. You hold up the failures of other MMOs as if to suggest that failure is normal and as such, FFXI is an adequate model around which to base FFXIV. But can you tell me why games like Warhammer, AoC, and Aion have disappointed? Have you any clue at all? Or does exploring the reality of that situation frighten you? Like maybe you'd have to acknowledge that there are a great many reasons a game can fail to live up to expectations...expectations that are generated largely based on precedent.

Do you understand the word "precedent"?


And you refuse to mention any kind of relevant, or even just plain logical, specifics. How am I supposed to acknowledge something that isn't even there? I don't hold up failures of other MMOs to suggest that failure is normal. I maintain my stance that they aren't failures. You are the one who is calling all of them failures, not me. According to these words that you've said, every MMO on those charts aside from Tiba, EVE Online, Second Life, Dofus, and WoW are failures. Are you really that retarded?

Quote:
It wasn't just the grind...it was the way you had to go about the grinding and no, FFXI's grind is not comparable to most other MMOs. Most other MMOs don't require up to (or more than) 20 hours to farm triggers for bosses each time you want to fight them.

And neither does ffxi. Once again you manage to show your amazing ignorance.

Quote:
They don't require that you assemble your group and stand in one place for up to three hours at a stretch waiting for a boss to spawn that you are then required to compete with the rest of the server in order to claim.

And neither does ffxi.

Quote:
They don't require you to form a group or settle for the scraps from the FoV table.

They don't require you to party or solo? Do you just magically gain levels then? Please, continue to be retarded.You can solo pretty easily in ffxi, but you wouldn't know this because you hate the game so much you refuse to acknowledge parts of the game.

Quote:
Yes, they did. It's clearly documented that FFXI was first released for PS2 in Japan with the NA PC release coming about a year later. If it had been a flop in Japan, it never would have gone global.

Do you not understand what the word global means? Releasing a game in Japan and the US is not "global". Nor was it released globally when the EU release came around later.

Quote:
I don't claim to argue for all people. Just the majority. I think you and I both know that market precedent favors my point of view far more than yours. FAR more. But if you just cuss and bluster and pretend like you're presenting a rational point of view that should be enough, amirite?

You claim you're arguing for the majority, but where are the people who are backing you up? The majority of the people seem to be against what you're saying, not for it. You were the first one to bring insults into this, not me. So don't try to pass off my frustration at you being a ****** as being someone who can't put together an argument. It's incredibly laughable though. Go ahead, tell me where my posts conflict. I've already shown you where yours do, but you refuse to acknowledge them.

Quote:
You incorrect use language English.

Real mature, a simple typo makes the entire argument moot, right? I guess I'll just have to stop responding because without that "ly" there my posts no longer make sense.

Quote:
I didn't quit because I died to a chigoe. As I said in my post, it was the final frustration in a long string of frustrations. I know that 90% of your arguments rely on trying to ignore facts and twist what was said to suit the points you want to make, but it's pretty dumb to try it when anyone can go back through the thread and see that you're wrong.

So, you didn't quit because you died to a chigoe. You just quit because you died to a chigoe and that was the last straw. Got it. It was still part of the reason you quit, and therefore you quit because you died to a chigoe.

Quote:

WRONG, Deadgye.

WRONG.

How does it feel?

I believe my previous rhetorical question was correct, you are twelve.

Quote:
Numbers or stfu. Trying to downplay the success of WoW is really not smart. Really. Not smart.

Funny you should say this. Seeing as how that actually helps my point. Also funny seeing as how the second sentence has nothing to do with what I've said. Everytime numbers have been brought up, they've only showed that you're wrong.
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#192 Jan 25 2010 at 3:28 AM Rating: Decent
It's Just a Flesh Wound
******
22,699 posts
Quote:
Let's not forget the time to farm up another 20-60 Seals to try again in the case of your BCNM example. Not exactly a trivial process.

That fits under consumables actually, not time. But I'll admit that I did forget to mention it. You shouldn't really be wiping in BCNMs though.

Quote:
Consumable costs are consumable costs. The idea is that they should be voluntary from a mechanics standpoint, not mandatory. Stealth items were functionally mandatory in most higher level scenarios. Relying on a caster in your party to look after it was not a practical option in zones with sight or magic aggro mobs, and even in those situations where having a caster cast or drop invis to re-stealth a party member was not a significant risk, it was tedious. Hence it became functionally mandatory to use consumables in a player controlled market. Swap consumables for say...durability...where the cost is fixed based on NPC prices relative to quality of gear and SE can tune much of the persistent costs as they see fit.


That's not a bad trade-off actually. Sneak and Invis items were cheap as **** though. They weren't really used a ******** though. I went through a stack of tonko-powder maybe 4 times a year, and a stack of silent oil maybe once every two months? I guess I was kind of an exception though; I liked to try and MGS my way through areas. Getting to kirin from the outpost without using sneak at all, or walking out to sky from MG without sneak at all.

Quote:
You're talking ideal situations. You're conveniently ignoring the frustration experienced by people who could go literally dozens of hours without a group invite to an xp/merit party because the job they enjoyed playing was so poorly tuned that nobody wanted them around. When you're lucky to see 3-4 hours of xp earning in the span of a week, xp loss for death stings. A lot. Again, you're thinking on too narrow a scale. If you broaden your thinking to include the entire community and consider the impact that these penalties have on all the varied players, you start to see where a "trivial" penalty to you is not so trivial to them. And when the best solution you have to offer for those people requires them to play the game in a way that is not enjoyable or impractical for them, you've endorsed failed game mechanics.

My main job is a thf, so yeah.. I didn't discount that trust me. Even when your job wasn't considered "favorable" you could still easily solo exp if you really needed to. I partied one to 4 times a year after I hit 75. I never went into exp mode, only merit mode. Because with the amount of sac pulls I did for my linkshell, and all the accidental deaths I had, I got my exp back just by playing/having fun in the game.

Quote:
FFXIV is supposed to be more about "do what you want." That means, "don't try to progress a Gladiator because nobody wants them because of how they're tuned" is not an acceptable scenario. It means, "<x> is the flavor of the month, therefore if you want to enjoy your time in the game you need to focus your efforts on <x>" is not an acceptable scenario.

I agree, but this problem is mostly the players fault. In the early parts of the game people said war sucked and there was no point in taking it past 37. They were oh so wrong. People always asked me if I had a different job than thf because they needed a DD, but I always managed to prove them wrong. I'm not discounting that there were parts where SE screwed up. DRGs wyvren was pretty much useless for the first year or two of the game. PUP is still broken. BLM still need a buff. I'm not discounting these ******* that SE has made and apparently refuses to acknowledge.

Quote:
I'm... not assuming. Death Penalties might not have been the only thing that scared people away from FFXI, but it is one of key gripes in reasons I've seen people give over the years.

But you did assume it. There's no way for you to know if the death penalty is the main reason why FFXI has less customers than WoW. It's possible that it has an effect on people joining/quitting, but to say it might be the difference between .5M and 11M subscribers?

Quote:
Regardless, I don't see how people have less access to FFXI than WoW. Sure, SE's advertising blows and you might be lucky to find a copy of the game in a store, but that may very well be speaking of XI's popularity from the distributing end. Companies might've felt using shelf space on it wasn't profitable. Nonetheless, there is the digital download option through Direct2Drive or even Steam. People can get the game if they want it, but anyone seriously going over reviews to determine their next MMO experience probably won't give XI a chance. Some who have given it a chance and walked away probably don't wanna try again, either. People have been negative. Very negative. Us old-timers may laugh at such reviews and refute otherwise, but the newbie doesn't know or didn't know how to get around their problems. I'd personally tell anyone to stay away from XI without a friend or two around to play with. It just isn't a friendly game, and I'm including the community in that description despite the nice people you'll find here and there.

I was talking about how FFXI hasn't been released in certain parts of the world that WoW has. That might have changed with the steam release though, but I think it's far to late for that.
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#193 Jan 25 2010 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
38 posts
Aurelius, Deadgye, in the immortal words of Rodney King: Can't we all just STFU?? lol, joking.. carry on!
#194 Jan 25 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Default
Deadgye wrote:
What are you twelve?


You're still crying.

Quote:
First of all, you've ignored more than half the things I've said. It's amazing how many times you put your foot in your mouth. Second, =10 doesn't mean sh*t. Judging ffxi based on =10 is one of the most retarded things you've probably done.


Really? One of the last remaining premier sites where even the staffers write scathing editorials of the game and it means nothing. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, dood.

Quote:
"Virtually every". Try not to selectively read, I know it's hard for you. I made a god **** table for you, are you really that dense that you couldn't follow it? Do you even know what happened in the time frame when ffxi lost those customers? I gaurantee you it had nothing to do with the death penalty because the death penalty has never changed. How you managed to connect those two unrelated events together further shows why you shouldn't be posting.


And yet, you accuse me of being dense.

Nobody has said that FFXI suffered exclusively because of the xp loss on death. They have said it was a component of their frustration with the game. Many people have said as such. It certainly didn't add a positive component to the game for many people. The bottom line is this: you can find people who will say that part of the reason they left FFXI was that the penalties for failure were too harsh and the rewards were too insubstantial. Again with your narrow thinking. Why do you refuse to look at things from the bigger picture? Why must you perpetually examine things only at the micro level and ignore how they all fit together?

Why must you continue to deny public opinion? Believe it or not, FFXI is not on trial here. It's just simply an example of the implementation of certain game mechanics that people have found to be unpalatable and as such, would largely prefer not to see duplicated in a new game.

People learn by making mistakes, and when you penalize them unnecessarily for their mistakes you make them less inclined to try to learn. You discourage innovation and creativity. You end up with people settling for cookie-cutter situations in virtually every facet of the game. That's not fun.

Quote:
And you refuse to mention any kind of relevant, or even just plain logical, specifics. How am I supposed to acknowledge something that isn't even there? I don't hold up failures of other MMOs to suggest that failure is normal. I maintain my stance that they aren't failures. You are the one who is calling all of them failures, not me. According to these words that you've said, every MMO on those charts aside from Tiba, EVE Online, Second Life, Dofus, and WoW are failures. Are you really that retarded?


Public opinion defines success and failure in the MMO genre. Is that so hard for you to understand?

Quote:
And neither does ffxi. Once again you manage to show your amazing ignorance.


You forget...I played FFXI for almost 4 years. I've played several other MMOs since. FFXI's grind is not comparable to that of other MMOs. No other MMO I've ever played has featured hours upon hours of fighting the same mobs over and over again for xp. No other MMO I've played has created such an enormous distinction between base character progression in groups vs. solo. If you think FoV is an example of good solo progression, you're a lunatic. Not only is it dull as ****, it's severely limited. For people whose only frame of reference is FFXI pre-FoV, FoV might seem like an amazing, wonderful thing. For those who have experienced the more diverse (and rewarding) solo options in other games, FoV is kind of lame.

Quote:
Quote:
They don't require that you assemble your group and stand in one place for up to three hours at a stretch waiting for a boss to spawn that you are then required to compete with the rest of the server in order to claim.

And neither does ffxi.


Really? What would you call trigger farming for sky or old school HNMs? Again, it doesn't matter what SE has added since then. If you want the full FFXI experience, camping long spawns is part of it. Stop denying the truth.

Quote:
Quote:
They don't require you to form a group or settle for the scraps from the FoV table.

They don't require you to party or solo? Do you just magically gain levels then? Please, continue to be retarded.You can solo pretty easily in ffxi, but you wouldn't know this because you hate the game so much you refuse to acknowledge parts of the game.


Solo in FFXI is crap. Get it through your head. Truly viable solo play means you should be able to run out into the field as any sensible class combination and do well. The instant you start requiring a particular subjob (especially if you have to unlock said subjob) for it to be viable, it's a broken system.

Quote:
Do you not understand what the word global means? Releasing a game in Japan and the US is not "global". Nor was it released globally when the EU release came around later.


SE has announced plans to launch FFXIV globally with their initial offering, yet it won't be in every country in the world on release day. So are you now claiming to be more knowledgeable on the functional use of the word "global" than SE? Careful where you stick your foot.

Quote:
You claim you're arguing for the majority, but where are the people who are backing you up? The majority of the people seem to be against what you're saying, not for it. You were the first one to bring insults into this, not me. So don't try to pass off my frustration at you being a ****** as being someone who can't put together an argument. It's incredibly laughable though. Go ahead, tell me where my posts conflict. I've already shown you where yours do, but you refuse to acknowledge them.


You mean like you and odinpingpong? I'm not the only one in this thread arguing against xp loss for death, deadgye. And the discussion forums for a game still in alpha are not representative of the majority opinion for said alpha game's predecessor.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: you argue poorly. And your frustration is becoming more and more evident as your hypocrisy comes more and more apparent.

Quote:
Real mature, a simple typo makes the entire argument moot, right? I guess I'll just have to stop responding because without that "ly" there my posts no longer make sense.


About as mature as, "you're a god **** @#%^ing ******", amirite?

Quote:
So, you didn't quit because you died to a chigoe. You just quit because you died to a chigoe and that was the last straw. Got it. It was still part of the reason you quit, and therefore you quit because you died to a chigoe.


lol

More twisting. More failed logic. Your posts are a waste of forum resources. Head on back to OOT and the Asylum and stay there. Structured discourse is not your strong point.


Edited, Jan 25th 2010 9:09am by AureliusSir
#195 Jan 25 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Default
***
2,169 posts
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Masochism is taking pleasure in being abused. I'm not taking pleasure in dying. I'm taking pleasure in escaping death b/c dying sucks more when the penalties are higher. I prefer more risk. That is not masochism in any way, shape, or form.


Granted you are volunteering to subject yourself to an inevitable punishment, and claiming that it will cause you to enjoy the overall experience more, yes, that is masochism. Whether you enjoy the abuse itself or the catharsis from the abuse, the fact is that you're experience abuse-dependent pleasure.


If you want to call it abuse dependent pleasure, then no, it is not masochism. Unless you enjoy the punishment itself, it's not masochism. The definition does not extend beyond that. Your embellishments is simply from your own interpretation and is not part of the literal definition.

Secondly, if we use your definition of masochism as abuse dependent pleasure, then anything other than immediately raising up with a full bar of MP and HP with no food loss and no travel time loss is masochistic according to your twisted definition. As long as anybody want's any penalty, then it is masochism.

You can't have it both ways - conveniently calling people's perceived proper level of punishment masochistic simply b/c it differs from what you want.
____________________________
FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
LS: UnitedBBQ

www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
#196 Jan 25 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
3. A willingness or tendency to subject oneself to unpleasant or trying experiences.


Funny thing about words is that they often have multiple meanings. Just because it doesn't match the single definition you cherry-picked from an internet query means nothing. I'm not going to argue the semantics of a word that runs adjacent to the focus of my PhD with someone who has to google it. Even if you couldn't find that definition in a web dictionary, the only one's that matter are professional psychology publications in this context, which happen to agree with me. AND the dictionary agrees with me.

So to reiterate, yes, you exhibit masochistic tendencies. It's unlikely to be anything serious, though it could cause you a great deal of undue stress.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#197 Jan 25 2010 at 1:23 PM Rating: Default
***
2,169 posts
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
3. A willingness or tendency to subject oneself to unpleasant or trying experiences.


Funny thing about words is that they often have multiple meanings. Just because it doesn't match the single definition you cherry-picked from an internet query means nothing. I'm not going to argue the semantics of a word that runs adjacent to the focus of my PhD with someone who has to google it. Even if you couldn't find that definition in a web dictionary, the only one's that matter are professional psychology publications in this context, which happen to agree with me. AND the dictionary agrees with me.

So to reiterate, yes, you exhibit masochistic tendencies. It's unlikely to be anything serious, though it could cause you a great deal of undue stress.


First of all, you don't need to bust the PhD card. If you have a PhD in this field, let your arguments stand on the merits of your words.

Second of all, I didn't quote any definition. How would you know which definition I'm referring to? How would you know I got it from an internet search query, if you didn't use an internet search query to check yourself? A bit hypocritical.

Thirdly, I wouldn't be arguing the semantics of a term if I'm not very well familiar with it, and you don't need a PhD in Psych to debate this. Personally, I chose not to go into Psych because I've known a lot of people in the field, and all but a very few of them feel the need to pre-categorize everybody they meet to the point of intolerable annoyance and believe that their field is the end-all and be all of understanding the human mind. It's pretentious really, and that type of attitude shows in your last line, where you attempt to strip power from your opposition through a disrespectful and condescending remark.

Now that we got that out of the way. the quote which you chose to use does not accurately describe what I'm talking about, nor is it the best definition. Nowhere did I say that I am willing to subject myself to unpleasant or trying experiences, thus it is not voluntary. I'm simply talking about my opinion the proper level for a game penalty.

My opinion of the proper level for a game punishment is more severe than a few others, because I prefer more risk in a game mechanic. Risk is much better word to define what I want. The reason why you choose "masochism" over "risk" is because masochism contains negative connotation.

Instead of a neutral word that better describes the situation, you choose the word that best helps your own argument. Instead of saying that you have a difference of opinion and leaving it at that, you feel the need to discredit an opinion by using a definition more closely associated with mental illness.

For being a psych major, you should have realized long ago how silly it is to apply masochism to a video game death mechanic.

Anyways, there are 2 possibilities at this point.

1) You are misusing masochism and incorrectly defining the situation.

2) You are correctly defining the situation using masochism, and therefore you believe everyone who wants any type of death penalty is masochistic. That means the guy who wanted to raise 30 meters away and walk back for 30 seconds is also masochistic, b/c the simple act of wanting a game mechanic that has undesirable consequences is masochistic.

Pick.

Edited, Jan 25th 2010 2:47pm by odinpingpong
____________________________
FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
LS: UnitedBBQ

www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
#198 Jan 25 2010 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
899 posts
Quote:

Granted you are volunteering to subject yourself to an inevitable punishment, and claiming that it will cause you to enjoy the overall experience more, yes, that is masochism. Whether you enjoy the abuse itself or the catharsis from the abuse, the fact is that you're experience abuse-dependent pleasure.


By your logic any request for punishment is just an act of masochism , being it theft , cheating or anything of the sort. If someone failed a course should we just give him a "BAD BOY!!" and let him pass or should he repeat said course? but but he did his homework! he studied! (Consumables) yet he failed!

For once you guys said its ok to have punishment then waa waa asking for punishment is an act of masochism! lol

One note Seriha: sure death penalty didn't stop ppl from zombie tactics few things but it limited it, Think about lows against theft/killing : remove the low and watch how many ppl will practice it.
____________________________
Falasi of Bismarck.
THF75/WAR75/BLU75/RNG75/DRK75/MNK75/SAM66
ZM:done. PM:done. AM:done.
Assault: Captain
#199 Jan 25 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,072 posts
Falasi wrote:
Quote:

Granted you are volunteering to subject yourself to an inevitable punishment, and claiming that it will cause you to enjoy the overall experience more, yes, that is masochism. Whether you enjoy the abuse itself or the catharsis from the abuse, the fact is that you're experience abuse-dependent pleasure.


By your logic any request for punishment is just an act of masochism , being it theft , cheating or anything of the sort. If someone failed a course should we just give him a "BAD BOY!!" and let him pass or should he repeat said course? but but he did his homework! he studied! (Consumables) yet he failed!

For once you guys said its ok to have punishment then waa waa asking for punishment is an act of masochism! lol

One note Seriha: sure death penalty didn't stop ppl from zombie tactics few things but it limited it, Think about lows against theft/killing : remove the low and watch how many ppl will practice it.


Starting with the tail end first. What does a death penalty have to do with kill stealing... or MPK? I'm assuming that's you were going for, anyway. That's more tied to the claim system and entitlement issues (for loot), be it fair play (people wanting instancing over world spawns) or defense of elitism (Stuff should be rare because they wanna be more special than the other guy).


Now, more on the school analogy, it's one thing to penalize your failures individually, but we're talking a collaborative experience where the penalty can be inflicted upon you at no fault of your own. How much would people love being told they failed a test because some guy across the room decided to do something stupid? Not very many. There comes a point where applying Super Serious(tm) standards gets a bit much for a game, too. We're paying to play, not being paid to play.

Moreover, I wanna say there's some element of internet anonymity fueling the acceptance of harsher penalties. In the odd case it is "your fault" that you hurt another player's experience, it's pretty easy to brush off the experience even if they blow up on you and point fingers. Just don't party with them again, blacklist 'em, make a smear post on some forum, or whatever. Unlike reality, I could call a teacher on pulling a **** move and I HAVE in the past (God, I don't miss that sexist, Tab-swilling, ****** of an English teacher), effectively resolving the situations that came of it. Same applies to co-workers, neighbors, classmates, or anything within eyesight. The social chain of command is a checks and balances system of its own in reality that's often absent on the net because an offending party could jump servers, changes names, restart, or whatever. So, Plan B is coded consequence... or some twisted sense of serious gaming justice instead of focusing on properly rewarding success.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#200 Jan 25 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Default
Falasi wrote:
Quote:

Granted you are volunteering to subject yourself to an inevitable punishment, and claiming that it will cause you to enjoy the overall experience more, yes, that is masochism. Whether you enjoy the abuse itself or the catharsis from the abuse, the fact is that you're experience abuse-dependent pleasure.


By your logic any request for punishment is just an act of masochism , being it theft , cheating or anything of the sort. If someone failed a course should we just give him a "BAD BOY!!" and let him pass or should he repeat said course? but but he did his homework! he studied! (Consumables) yet he failed!


Bad analogy.

A better analogy would be one where a student fails the course and is forced to repeat it if they want credit for it (re: no xp loss on death).

Compared to a student failing a course and the school administration going over to their permanent record and adjusting their grades from the previous year down as punishment (re: xp loss on death).

In the first analogy, a goal was set (to achieve a passing grade) and was not met, therefore in order to achieve the goal the student would start over.

In the second analogy, that same goal was set but because they failed to meet it, not only must they take the course over to achieve the goal, they have to make up for the impact the extra penalty has on their overall standing.

Quote:
For once you guys said its ok to have punishment then waa waa asking for punishment is an act of masochism! lol


Yes, asking to be punished is masochism.

Quote:
One note Seriha: sure death penalty didn't stop ppl from zombie tactics few things but it limited it, Think about lows against theft/killing : remove the low and watch how many ppl will practice it.


I'm assuming you mean lAws. And your example doesn't fit. Laws exist to protect the rights and liberties of other people. I'm not infringing upon anyone's rights or liberties if my tank D/C's at the start of a fight or I get swamped by a mob of respawns while I'm out questing by myself.
#201 Jan 25 2010 at 8:24 PM Rating: Decent
Does it from behind...
*****
13,048 posts
I think the world is going to end; I actually agree with Aurelius (inside joke from WoW General, I guess).

FFXI players that try to defend EXP loss or death penalties when they haven't experienced anything but death penalties in games is hilarious. You can't argue with numbers: FFXI (and other MMOs) are failures when compared to WoW. It's as simple as that.

What has WoW done? Given out better content updates, used more consumer feedback, and right along with that, a less demanding game experience.

Blizzard has created a split in their consumers; that of the hardcore, and that of the casual. The casual still get to experience parts of the game, but the hardcore get to experience all of the game.

What makes this work so well? Blizzard has decided that instead of having death penalties and thinking that challenges users (if you think death penalties makes a game harder... LOL), they make content for the hardcore games actually hard. I know, what a concept, right? Leveling content is fun (as much as leveling content can be fun, at least), and the challenging part comes into play once you reach the level cap.

It's literally impossible to argue that this doesn't work. FFXI and other MMOs have lost subscribers, while WoW continues to gain more subscribers. No other MMO has had even close to as many subscribers as WoW has; hard to argue against that.

Taking WoW's model and modifying it and building off of it is good business. Not building off of it would be like LG, Nokia, Samsung, and other mobile phone companies not basing their phones on touch-screen smartphone designs after the iPhone came out. The public wants options that competes with the iPhone; give the public what they want, and you'll make money. Refuse to innovate, refuse to bend to the desire of the public, and your product isn't going to succeed.

FFXIV will have to start with WoW as a base and build off of that, incorporating the things from FFXI that the players loved, and innovating where there are things in WoW that don't work, and where things didn't work in FFXI.

Needless to say, if there are 3 hour HNM camps in FFXIV, the game will fail. Same with incredibly long grinds, same with requiring party content in leveling.

FFXI fanboys can either go back to their failed game if they don't like it, or shut the **** up. FFXI was a failure, and SE is trying to make the WoW-killer.
____________________________
The·oph·a·ny (thē-ŏf'ə-nē)
An appearance of a god to a human; a divine manifestation.
Rogue Hunter
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 19 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (19)