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be very very quiet..... I'm talking death penaltyFollow

#202 Jan 25 2010 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
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Meh Its all depend on how much "Casual Friendly" FFXIV it will be , WOW's level(Soloing) or FoV/level-Sync(Group is better , soloing is doable) kinda concept, the existing/level of penalty should match gaming style and to some extend the need for consumable.

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Needless to say, if there are 3 hour HNM camps in FFXIV, the game will fail. Same with incredibly long grinds, same with requiring party content in leveling.


One thing: you don’t have to as another options exist ,equip wise and how to get said equips, even another form of these mobs can be fought somewhere else (KS99/Limbus/Nyzul). Not saying It was right to be implemented this way, just saying alternatives exist. You could have used AV as an example but most players don’t need AV drops to function so at least its not really a big deal for me not to have AV drops.

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#203 Jan 25 2010 at 11:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Function, no, but expectations were high. It's part of the reason why I took a jab at the XI community in an earlier post. Just looking at a job like MNK, if you didn't have Fumas, O.Kotes, Brown Belt, Peacock Charm, and Jiu Jitsu Gi by 40, you'd have a lot of people calling you gimp even if instead it was something like Fed. Kyahan, Battle Gloves, Tilt Belt, Spike Necklace, and perhaps a Merc. Cpt. Doublet. Are there statistical differences in this equipment? Of course. Are they drastic? I'd kinda say yeah. There were no alternatives in this case, and in cases of some stuff like Utsu: Ni, you either have it or you don't.

Little things like this snowball into expectations of worth meaning you could do stuff like TP Burn Kirin down in 30 seconds, or take an hour or two to kite it around. There's no mistaking one style is certainly more preferable in this case. Additionally, skill only carries one so far when numbers enter the picture. Higher numbers can compensate for some skill deficit, but we've probably all seen a failboat dude in +1 everything, too, while some of the nicest, most talented people don't have a drop only because the random number generator hates them.

All of this is somewhat tangential, but it does hold a loose relationship to penalties or costs for actions.
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#204 Jan 25 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
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There's a qualitative difference between wanting limitations to facilitate the gameplay (e.g., wanting a challenging opponent) and wanting to be punished for failure. The latter is masochism. With that, this lesson should be over and any debate settled. You are welcome to keep disagreeing if you don't mind being wrong.

Furthermore, the connotation that masochism carries is mildly negative at best. If you're a *********, fine, no big deal. I'm not asking you to check yourself into a clinic or feel ashamed about it-- just accept that if you really are a *********, and I cannot emphasize enough the conditional IF, that you are not like most people, and a game that tailors itself to that niche will inevitably do poorly on the market.

That is my point. Not that you are mentally ill, or a "bad person" because you're presumably a *********.
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#205 Jan 26 2010 at 12:34 AM Rating: Decent
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There's a qualitative difference between wanting limitations to facilitate the gameplay (e.g., wanting a challenging opponent) and wanting to be punished for failure. The latter is masochism. With that, this lesson should be over and any debate settled. You are welcome to keep disagreeing if you don't mind being wrong.


I don’t know honestly but There is also a qualitative difference between wanting to be punish and wanting to have some lines drawn between the ones who know and the ones who don’t , the ones who put effort and the ones with monkey's brains. You are free to explain it however you want, assuming that its masochism for the sake of proving your point. as you said its not illness and I agree but myself and the ppl trying to justify death penalty are far from what you try to describe us as. Otherwise seeking death will be our new fantasy lol.

Quote:
All of this is somewhat tangential, but it does hold a loose relationship to penalties or costs for actions.


Lets just hope Equips selections vary and a 2nd-5th best exist within players reach , as long as there is some form of grouping , standard equips will be in place (Happens even on WOW's raid guilds. at least from what my bro's talk). No one complain about your equips while soloing but once you join a group whatever you do effects them. I'm not sure about you but I've meet way too many nice ppl hardly complaining about my equips (THF was my 1st job and I used full AF until 65, dex rings and hardly macro swap). few ppl gave me advices but after asking if I'd welcome such an advices. Only 2 players on my entire FFXI life been added to my Blacklist , 1st for poping out of no where commenting on perdu scythe , 2nd was spam calling me elitist for not answering his tells asking about Eastern Shadow TOD when I was camping it.

Idk , Maybe Bismarck was the perfect server.
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#206 Jan 26 2010 at 12:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Falasi wrote:
Meh Its all depend on how much "Casual Friendly" FFXIV it will be , WOW's level(Soloing) or FoV/level-Sync(Group is better , soloing is doable) kinda concept, the existing/level of penalty should match gaming style and to some extend the need for consumable.

Quote:
Needless to say, if there are 3 hour HNM camps in FFXIV, the game will fail. Same with incredibly long grinds, same with requiring party content in leveling.


One thing: you don’t have to as another options exist ,equip wise and how to get said equips, even another form of these mobs can be fought somewhere else (KS99/Limbus/Nyzul). Not saying It was right to be implemented this way, just saying alternatives exist. You could have used AV as an example but most players don’t need AV drops to function so at least its not really a big deal for me not to have AV drops.

Uh, sorry; all of that doesn't deny me my points. In fact, it makes them more relevant. I'm guessing the changes to more casual content and less retarded 3 hour HNM camps was well-recieved?

Yeah, thought so.

Kachi wrote:
There's a qualitative difference between wanting limitations to facilitate the gameplay (e.g., wanting a challenging opponent) and wanting to be punished for failure. The latter is masochism. With that, this lesson should be over and any debate settled. You are welcome to keep disagreeing if you don't mind being wrong.

Yay logic! Smiley: schooled
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#207 Jan 26 2010 at 1:02 AM Rating: Decent
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I don’t know honestly but There is also a qualitative difference between wanting to be punish and wanting to have some lines drawn


Yes, that's exactly what I just said.

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between the ones who know and the ones who don’t , the ones who put effort and the ones with monkey's brains.


I would probably like to offer a rebuttal to this, but I have no idea what you're saying.

Quote:
You are free to explain it however you want, assuming that its masochism for the sake of proving your point. as you said its not illness and I agree but myself and the ppl trying to justify death penalty are far from what you try to describe us as. Otherwise seeking death will be our new fantasy lol.


Actually I feel pretty confined to explaining it in a way that is accurate rather than "however I want." I did not say that masochism wasn't an illness-- that depends entirely on the degree of masochism, and I am in no position to judge (but if I were, it would be on a case by case basis). However, I am not trying to describe you in any way-- in fact I am leaving it entirely up to you to describe yourself. All I am saying is that IF you exhibit these tendencies THEN you are on some level a *********.

Finally "seeking death" would not necessarily be the fantasy of a *********. Not all masochists seek the same types of punishment or the most extreme (e.g., the people here seem to have a problem with the notion of replacing xp loss with slamming their balls in the door). Masochism is a broad term that includes any punishment the person wants to have present. "Normal" people do not choose to have punishments on the table as a consequence for things they will invariably and probably by accident do-- things they didn't want to do in the first place (fail). Really this only gets debatable at the point when a person feels that punishments need to be present to prevent them from doing something they shouldn't, at which point that person likely has more serious problems than masochism.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#208 Jan 26 2010 at 1:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not sure about you but I've meet way too many nice ppl hardly complaining about my equips (THF was my 1st job and I used full AF until 65, dex rings and hardly macro swap).


I'd argue the fact you were even invited suggested the party was already in the mindset to compromise. Mediocre gear probably didn't help your standing in the long run, either. Nah, the people who would insist upon the first set of gear I'd listed would, in this day and age, be focusing on 3x 2H DDs, RDM, 2x BRD or BRD and COR type of parties where even one of the 2H DDs could be gimp and you'd be the best geared THF on the planet and still get overlooked because you're a THF.

Penalties lead to standards for avoiding them, avoidance then seeking optimization, while this optimization then creeps into optimizing the entirety of success. It's a circuitous chain with the goal to avoid failure, where at times the players create additional penalties even if the original intent was seeking reward. The fewer reasons we have to be douchebags to each other, the better. All the hyperbolic "But, but, but!" against "easy mode" penalties can usually be designed around to prevent exploitation. Like the whole tractor/reraise/lava **** to avoid an obstacle. Obvious solution would be to either make it so you can't get close enough to tractor, or prevent people from even entering the lava. Since SE's already said they have no plans of adding jumping, I don't quite think we have to worry about environmental hazards beyond mob presence.
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#209 Jan 26 2010 at 1:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Since SE's already said they have no plans of adding jumping, I don't quite think we have to worry about environmental hazards beyond mob presence.

Aw man, I hadn't heard that. Now I'm like 10% less excited about the game. Smiley: frown
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#210 Jan 26 2010 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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Pretty sure nobody wanted 3hr (you mean 21-24 probably) HNM spawns, so therefore I'm not sure who you are addressing with that statement.

The other thing is, there are a lot of people willing to leave WoW for a brand new MMO, something different. WoW was the right game at the right time, and for FFXIV to "beat" WoW, it will need to be the right game at the right time with the right mechanics, but probably not the same mechanics.

Imagine if you are a player desperately trying to leave WoW for a new game, and you discover that the new game is just like a less polished version of WoW. That's what happened with Aion and Warhammer.

FFXIV it needs to be different and innovative to beat WoW. Cloning WoW features and putting in a few FFXI might work, but I highly doubt it. Listening to the community will help, but I believe more important than listening to the community would be studying player behavior closely in a more scientific way to determine what makes players addicted.

Edited, Jan 26th 2010 4:21am by odinpingpong
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#211 Jan 26 2010 at 4:06 AM Rating: Good
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odinpingpong wrote:
FFXIV it needs to be different and innovative to beat WoW.

Sure, but at the same time you have to accept that some things are just good ideas.

The Warhammer MMORPG is a lot like WoW (in comparison to the differences between WoW and FFXI). However it add some new an innovative features that significantly improved game play. Public Quests in WAR were a brilliant idea that allowed for the coming together community effect FFXI had without the forced partying. Queuing up for instanced pvp anywhere at any time while questing was also a great idea.

WAR added innovative features that improved the game, but they didn't throw away all the good ideas Blizzard pioneered. You shouldn't be different simply for the sake of being different.

The term "WoW clone is thrown around a lot," but it's at the point where there are so many games borrowing basic ideas from WoW that it's less of a deluge of clones and ripoffs and just simply more of a genre shift. "FPS" is now considered a genre of its own, but many early FPS games were called "Doom Clones," because Doom was a popularized icon for a new style of play.
#212AureliusSir the Irrelevant, Posted: Jan 26 2010 at 5:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Let me see if I can word this in such a way as you begin to understand.
#213 Jan 26 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:
FFXIV it needs to be different and innovative to beat WoW.

Sure, but at the same time you have to accept that some things are just good ideas.

The Warhammer MMORPG is a lot like WoW (in comparison to the differences between WoW and FFXI). However it add some new an innovative features that significantly improved game play. Public Quests in WAR were a brilliant idea that allowed for the coming together community effect FFXI had without the forced partying. Queuing up for instanced pvp anywhere at any time while questing was also a great idea.

WAR added innovative features that improved the game, but they didn't throw away all the good ideas Blizzard pioneered. You shouldn't be different simply for the sake of being different.

The term "WoW clone is thrown around a lot," but it's at the point where there are so many games borrowing basic ideas from WoW that it's less of a deluge of clones and ripoffs and just simply more of a genre shift. "FPS" is now considered a genre of its own, but many early FPS games were called "Doom Clones," because Doom was a popularized icon for a new style of play.


Well I think you proved my point. Warhammer did it "right", but they couldn't reach 1mil subscriptions and continues to dwindle.

My point is that behavioral analysis is needed, and that players, for the most part, don't know what they want.

It's like trying to design a user interface, and asking the user what they want in terms of functionality. You won't get a good product that way. You must study behavior.
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#214 Jan 26 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:
Pretty sure nobody wanted 3hr (you mean 21-24 probably) HNM spawns, so therefore I'm not sure who you are addressing with that statement.

The other thing is, there are a lot of people willing to leave WoW for a brand new MMO, something different. WoW was the right game at the right time, and for FFXIV to "beat" WoW, it will need to be the right game at the right time with the right mechanics, but probably not the same mechanics.

Imagine if you are a player desperately trying to leave WoW for a new game, and you discover that the new game is just like a less polished version of WoW. That's what happened with Aion and Warhammer.


Let me see if I can word this in such a way as you begin to understand.

You can't make sweeping comparisons to other games that have been influenced by WoW and expect those statements to have any basis in a specific discussion. We're not talking about macro level concepts. We're talking about specific areas of game mechanics where a developer can't afford to not take note of the way the genre has evolved. One of those areas is frustrating your customers with excessive demands (and punishments) and offering only trivial rewards along the way.

When you make such sweeping statements, it makes it seem like you're afraid to address the issue. You still haven't commented on the big picture impact of xp loss for death on the community as a whole. It makes it seem like your position is based more around personal e-peen than anything else. You don't care if your preferences have a directly negative impact on the people you share the game with.

So be a sport and comment on the impact needless penalties would have on the community as a whole. You've stated your preferences, now buck up and expand your point of view. Show us what the oh-so-mighty FFXI "community centric" philosophy has to say about inclusiveness and large scale appeal.

Personally, I don't think you can. I don't think you can argue your preferences alongside an inclusive sense of community without contradicting yourself. Go on ahead and prove me wrong.


You are right, I can't. I guess that's my point, nobody really can. I joined this thread to give my opinion, and you tried to make it into an argument about what's best for game subscriptions. I didn't join in on those topics to argue one way or another, only pointing out that at best, all we have are opinions here, and we shouldn't pass it on as anything more.

My only point was that we as players really don't know which mechanic is best for the games sales or longevity. It could be any number of factors. As you mentioned about durability loss and using gil to repair armor, it was really no different than me saying there should be some other type of penalty.

There are so many things a developer can do with a death mechanic in FFXIV:

- Skill points loss on weapon
- A mini puzzle game given by god of death, of which you must complete to rez or pay gil to bypass.
- Answering trivia questions to recover without rez sickness.
- Durability loss and armor repair through gil
- corpse running
- rez sickness for X minutes
- Nothing happens you just rez and keep fighting from last point
- Incrementally restoring stats over the period of 3 minutes until maxxed

I have a preference, it's a personal one, but I'm not trying to pass it as the end-all be-all solution. I don't think it's possible to determine what that would be, tbh.
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#215 Jan 26 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Part of the WoW ennui is similar to XI's. They're both old games. On top of that, people have invested heavily into both, so jumping to something new where it's perhaps a few month's worth of content versus years and years that have been built up over patches and expansions leads to a level of unrealistic expectations that prematurely dubs a lot of new games failures despite being in their infancy with further progress in the works.

There's also a personal knowledge factor. Some would probably call me a giant encyclopedia of FFXI knowledge, and while I'd say I have a good grasp of Aion now, there's still a lot I don't know in terms of various quests, dungeons, the Asmodian side of the game, or even abilities of other classes at higher levels. Some people just plain hate not knowing everything, or perhaps having said everything conquered and sitting on top looking down on those who don't. There might be a brutal realization that they're not as individually godly that they'd initially have us believe, but were instead part of a group that they don't have in a new environment that brought them success in their old game. So, it's easier to run back to your old roost and call the new game crap.

This isn't to say there aren't merits to some complaints, though. When I look back to early XI and reasons why people bailed, I don't think I saw people say that there was nothing to do very often. Granted, I wouldn't call XI's mid-game content particularly robust, it's usually the fate of most MMOs for people to rush to endgame so they can economically exploit those lower, acquire prestige, or more rarely, simply see what kind of challenge awaits. Nonetheless, XI's grind and penalties for failure sent a message, and people responded with quitting, telling their friends, and writing bad reviews. Since the early days, we've seen EXP adjustments to TNLs, deaths costing less EXP overall, and even stuff more subtle like WHMs getting easier access to R2/R3 with lowered recasts. Enter SCH with R2, too, despite RDMs asking for it at level 75 for years. Pair this with the TP burns of today, and sure, XI might not seem as bad as it used to be.

But I remember. I'm not the only one who remembers, either.
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#216 Jan 26 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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My point is that behavioral analysis is needed, and that players, for the most part, don't know what they want.


So could we then conclude that players want a game more like WOW? Behavioral analysis would suggest that that's what players are playing.

Quote:
My only point was that we as players really don't know which mechanic is best for the games sales or longevity.


But this is only true of SOME players. Do you think that being a developer grants you any inside knowledge into which mechanics work best? It doesn't, really. If it did, every MMO that hit the shelf would enjoy some measure of success.

If your point was that "some people will be wrong," then of course you're right.

Edited, Jan 26th 2010 10:46am by Kachi
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#217 Jan 26 2010 at 12:46 PM Rating: Default
odinpingpong wrote:
Allegory wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:
FFXIV it needs to be different and innovative to beat WoW.

Sure, but at the same time you have to accept that some things are just good ideas.

The Warhammer MMORPG is a lot like WoW (in comparison to the differences between WoW and FFXI). However it add some new an innovative features that significantly improved game play. Public Quests in WAR were a brilliant idea that allowed for the coming together community effect FFXI had without the forced partying. Queuing up for instanced pvp anywhere at any time while questing was also a great idea.

WAR added innovative features that improved the game, but they didn't throw away all the good ideas Blizzard pioneered. You shouldn't be different simply for the sake of being different.

The term "WoW clone is thrown around a lot," but it's at the point where there are so many games borrowing basic ideas from WoW that it's less of a deluge of clones and ripoffs and just simply more of a genre shift. "FPS" is now considered a genre of its own, but many early FPS games were called "Doom Clones," because Doom was a popularized icon for a new style of play.


Well I think you proved my point. Warhammer did it "right", but they couldn't reach 1mil subscriptions and continues to dwindle.


Who said Warhammer did it right? They didn't. They were plagued with technical issues from day one, RMT dominated the game from practically day one, and it took the devs altogether too long to get it all sorted out. Couple that with the fact that there's nothing about the game that stands out over the competition and you end up with a product that many tried but few stuck around for. When the first free trial was made available, the download servers were screwed up. I signed up for the trial and in the full duration of said trial I wasn't even able to download the client. It wasn't until they changed it to an unlimited duration free trial that I managed to get the client and when I finally arrived in the game, it wasn't worth the hassle. Had they started with a polished product from day one and done a better job of addressing RMT in the initial development phase (with prompt follow-up when the game went live) they'd probably be doing much better than they are now.

That's what happens when you allow yourself to get stuck in the baseless line of thinking that people who express opinions in favor of certain specific game mechanics are simply arguing for a clone of the game where those mechanics were first scene (or gained the greatest popularity). You've delluded yourself into thinking that favoring certain mechanics found in WoW means a person wants a "WoW clone" and therefore you further delude yourself into thinking that those same people will see a game like Warhammer as a game that was done "right".

At some point, you're going to have to let go of your misconceptions. Constantly reminding the stubbornly braindead that nobody wants a WoW clone gets tiresome.

Quote:
My point is that behavioral analysis is needed, and that players, for the most part, don't know what they want.


Your point is that you can't argue from a wide angle so you throw ridiculous barriers and baseless accusations into the mix and hope that divests you of the need to present a proper argument. Behavioral analysis? Where the **** did that come from? Did Kachi's more clinical assessment of your masochistic tendencies shrink your e-peen and now you have to try to make up for it with something? Players know what they want. They want a game that entertains them without frustrating the **** out of them. Because we're talking about a group of people that numbers in the hundreds of thousands if not millions, you're not going to find a constant pattern of behavior and preferences. That's why alienating a large segment of your potential market to cater to an exclusive niche is bad design. A smart developer caters to the majority first (see also: casual) and then escalates challenge (and reward) up to and including the more dedicated (hardcore). Starting at the hardcore level and expecting the bulk of your market to go along with it is lunacy.

Quote:
It's like trying to design a user interface, and asking the user what they want in terms of functionality. You won't get a good product that way. You must study behavior.


Just...just leave it alone. You're out of your league, Donny. The market is too large for a behavioral study to offer any benefit. Look at the variety of addons available for games that support them and you'll see numerous addons that serve the same functional purpose but present themselves in different ways and my point will be clear to you.
#218 Jan 26 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Default
odinpingpong wrote:
You are right, I can't. I guess that's my point, nobody really can.


I disagree. It doesn't take much to see how well received xp loss on death was as a concept. (Again, large scale, not individual preference.) It hasn't been implemented in too many (if any) mainstream MMOs since FFXI and nobody complains. The only people who bemoan the less harsh approach to death in more recent MMOs are the ones who feel like they've had an e-peen extender taken away. I can't imagine anyone dying in an MMO and then cursing at their monitor because they weren't adequately penalized for it. I really can't.

Quote:
I joined this thread to give my opinion, and you tried to make it into an argument about what's best for game subscriptions. I didn't join in on those topics to argue one way or another, only pointing out that at best, all we have are opinions here, and we shouldn't pass it on as anything more.


I don't really take issue with someone saying that they were happy with the way FFXI set up its penalty system. I really don't. What I take issue with is comments like this:

odinpingpong wrote:
What you (and many others) are asking for is an easy game


I'm more interested in seeing challenge during the events that unfold while your character is alive. Whatever happens when you die does not add to the challenge...you're already dead. Penalties add to the risk, but risk is not synonymous with challenge. I wiped over 150 times with the WoW guild I was in at the time on a particular hardmode encounter before we finally won. If that were FFXI, R3 or no that would have been hours worth of grinding xp just to recover the losses, and that was just one encounter. And that guild ranked in the top 10% of guilds worldwide in content where a lot of servers don't have any guilds at all registering successful kills. So to have someone turn around and suggest that my aversion to excessive penalties for dying means I want an easy game is pretty silly.

#219 Jan 26 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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They were plagued with technical issues from day one, RMT dominated the game from practically day one, and it took the devs altogether too long to get it all sorted out.


I don't want to get into your cross-hairs here but there was no RMT issue (or to the extent you impy) in WAR. I have not seen a game which deals with that problem as well as WAR does. From release they had an entire option to name, shame and report those RMTs. After a few months - they were rarely seen spamming the chat in tell or otherwise.

Aion on the other hand.

I think the only problem WAR has, is the fact that there end-game, is literally the same as their start-game. it's the same scenarios from T1 through to T4. PvP, Public Quests, Dungeons and the stagnant PvE.
#220 Jan 26 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
My point is that behavioral analysis is needed, and that players, for the most part, don't know what they want.


So could we then conclude that players want a game more like WOW? Behavioral analysis would suggest that that's what players are playing.

Quote:
My only point was that we as players really don't know which mechanic is best for the games sales or longevity.


But this is only true of SOME players. Do you think that being a developer grants you any inside knowledge into which mechanics work best? It doesn't, really. If it did, every MMO that hit the shelf would enjoy some measure of success.

If your point was that "some people will be wrong," then of course you're right.

Edited, Jan 26th 2010 10:46am by Kachi


My point was that people don't know what they want until you show them what they want. They really don't. It's a pretty common saying in any type of design, especially game design, and it's true. They can do a lot better than copying over a WoW mechanic in the case of death penalty.

Developers shouldn't be pigeonholed into solving game mechanic issues a specific way because the playerbase requested a specific functionality. It's like the annoying client who sees a competitor features and asks for a specific feature, without allowing room for innovation.

So yes, I do believe game developers (producers rather) know a lot more about how to design a good game than we do.

Edited, Jan 26th 2010 2:47pm by odinpingpong
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#221 Jan 26 2010 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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[quote=AureliusSir the Irrelevant][/quote]

I don't think anyone except you is asking for a WoW clone. I formed this opinion based on your responses to several different threads, considering you seem to lack imagination outside of WoW mechanics.

I don't think arguing with Kachi about the semantics of masochism as a term was really adding anything, are you requesting that we continue to argue about the definition and application of masochism?

edit
And yes, you are right, I shouldn't call it easy mode. That's just my own opinion, and reflecting on that, it was a mistake.

Edited, Jan 26th 2010 3:01pm by odinpingpong
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#222 Jan 26 2010 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think Aur is asking for a WoW clone. He's just speaking from something he knows (perhaps better than a number of us) relative to what we also know of XI. Practical logic concerning the subject matter doesn't really matter what game we're speaking from, though. We're talking people and their habits, motivations. So, while it may be possible to pleasantly surprise a user with something they didn't know they wanted, blanketly ignoring requests for things they do want risks us emulating the XI experience with stonewall devs or "too little, too late" approaches of desperation to save a sinking ship.
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#223 Jan 26 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
I don't think Aur is asking for a WoW clone. He's just speaking from something he knows (perhaps better than a number of us) relative to what we also know of XI. Practical logic concerning the subject matter doesn't really matter what game we're speaking from, though. We're talking people and their habits, motivations. So, while it may be possible to pleasantly surprise a user with something they didn't know they wanted, blanketly ignoring requests for things they do want risks us emulating the XI experience with stonewall devs or "too little, too late" approaches of desperation to save a sinking ship.


He's trying to prove that his preferred mechanic (which happens to be identical to WoW) is better than other mechanics, not in one, but multiple threads. This is an indirect way of asking for a WoW clone without having to mention WoW at all.

I am also not suggesting that devs ignore community requests, at all. It's important to hear what users are saying, but we should not be passing our opinion of what the best mechanic is as fact. I am saying that we present the developers with our issues, and it is their role to determine the solution, not us. It's what they get paid to do, and if you get a game developer who makes good choices, then you get games that "pleasantly surprise".

Edited, Jan 26th 2010 3:39pm by odinpingpong
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#224 Jan 26 2010 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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You're stepping into another semantics argument if insisting on the WoW clone defense. Let's face it, the MMO genre, as is, isn't a particularly revolutionary one. Quest mechanics are usually pretty simple in being Kill X, Fetch Y, or Go to Z with possible combinations of the three, dating all the way back to dial-in BBS games or even MUDs. There will be stats. There will be character growth. The details will vary, sure, and combat systems (arguably the root of all MMOs) can vary between slow and fast pacing. People too quickly jump to the "clone" argument thinking someone talking similarly of it believes that WoW, or whatever is being cloned, invented everything like concepts of difficulty or light death penalties. It didn't.

There's an old saying. "Artists are thieves." Games are an expression of art, of entertainment. Developers steal ideas from each other all of the time, usually what they see has worked while omitting what hasn't. They'll slap a new coat of paint on it and even try to pass it off as innovative or whatever advertising hogwash might draw in people who don't know better. Without a jump in technology (I'm thinking like .HACK level of interface and sensory immersion), I can't see the MMO genre making drastic leaps of innovation. You can't reasonably expect greatness at a MMO's release, especially comparing to older ones, but simply a strong foundation that can be built upon.
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#225 Jan 26 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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odinpingpong wrote:
Seriha wrote:
I don't think Aur is asking for a WoW clone. He's just speaking from something he knows (perhaps better than a number of us) relative to what we also know of XI. Practical logic concerning the subject matter doesn't really matter what game we're speaking from, though. We're talking people and their habits, motivations. So, while it may be possible to pleasantly surprise a user with something they didn't know they wanted, blanketly ignoring requests for things they do want risks us emulating the XI experience with stonewall devs or "too little, too late" approaches of desperation to save a sinking ship.


He's trying to prove that his preferred mechanic (which happens to be identical to WoW) is better than other mechanics, not in one, but multiple threads. This is an indirect way of asking for a WoW clone without having to mention WoW at all.

No, it's not. The simple fact is that every other MMO that has been released after WoW hasn't had a death penalty. Having a death penalty would now be considered going against the norm.

I'm sorry that you think having a death penalty makes a game good. Really, I am. But obviously you haven't played any other MMO but FFXI with an open mind, otherwise you'd realize how stupid it is to ask to be penalized for playing a game like it's a game.

Just for the record, I quit WoW something like 8 months ago now. Just like FFXI, the game got stagnant for me, and there were parts I was intensely unhappy with.

But SE can learn from what Blizzard has done with WoW. If they don't, the game is going to be a flop. And yes, I can state that with certainty.
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#226 Jan 26 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
My point was that people don't know what they want until you show them what they want. They really don't. It's a pretty common saying in any type of design, especially game design, and it's true. They can do a lot better than copying over a WoW mechanic in the case of death penalty.

Developers shouldn't be pigeonholed into solving game mechanic issues a specific way because the playerbase requested a specific functionality. It's like the annoying client who sees a competitor features and asks for a specific feature, without allowing room for innovation.

So yes, I do believe game developers (producers rather) know a lot more about how to design a good game than we do.


I know what your point was. My point was that that's a blanket statement that is not even nearly always true.

Producers do not know a lot more about good game design than a gamer does. Why would you think that they do? What about those individuals grants them some keen insight into the world of games that any other dedicated gamer wouldn't possess? There really isn't one. There are as many bad producers with lacking design philosophies as there are gamers who don't know what they want. Even those who are supposed to be the very best in the world at what they do.

And if you need an example of just how true that is, I have two words for you: Microsoft Vista.
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#227 Jan 26 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
No, it's not. The simple fact is that every other MMO that has been released after WoW hasn't had a death penalty. Having a death penalty would now be considered going against the norm.

I'm sorry that you think having a death penalty makes a game good. Really, I am. But obviously you haven't played any other MMO but FFXI with an open mind, otherwise you'd realize how stupid it is to ask to be penalized for playing a game like it's a game.

Just for the record, I quit WoW something like 8 months ago now. Just like FFXI, the game got stagnant for me, and there were parts I was intensely unhappy with.

But SE can learn from what Blizzard has done with WoW. If they don't, the game is going to be a flop. And yes, I can state that with certainty.


1. Death penalty is the norm. Aion for example, WoW for example. Not having any penalty at all is not a norm for an MMORPG. I've already discussed why I think death penalty is not a bad idea, and I'll leave it as my opinion, nothing more.

2. I agree SE can learn something from blizzard, and I never suggested that it shouldn't. Learning from Blizz and copying mechanics b/c the game was successful overall are two different things. I think SE should learn why Blizzard was successful, and see if it's applicable with the game they are trying to make.
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#228 Jan 26 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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odinpingpong wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
No, it's not. The simple fact is that every other MMO that has been released after WoW hasn't had a death penalty. Having a death penalty would now be considered going against the norm.

I'm sorry that you think having a death penalty makes a game good. Really, I am. But obviously you haven't played any other MMO but FFXI with an open mind, otherwise you'd realize how stupid it is to ask to be penalized for playing a game like it's a game.

Just for the record, I quit WoW something like 8 months ago now. Just like FFXI, the game got stagnant for me, and there were parts I was intensely unhappy with.

But SE can learn from what Blizzard has done with WoW. If they don't, the game is going to be a flop. And yes, I can state that with certainty.


1. Death penalty is the norm. Aion for example, WoW for example. Not having any penalty at all is not a norm for an MMORPG. I've already discussed why I think death penalty is not a bad idea, and I'll leave it as my opinion, nothing more.

2. I agree SE can learn something from blizzard, and I never suggested that it shouldn't. Learning from Blizz and copying mechanics b/c the game was successful overall are two different things. I think SE should learn why Blizzard was successful, and see if it's applicable with the game they are trying to make.

So wait, you're just arguing semantics, now?

Alright, cool. Glad we figured that out. Go ahead and stop posting now.
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#229 Jan 26 2010 at 3:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
You're stepping into another semantics argument if insisting on the WoW clone defense. Let's face it, the MMO genre, as is, isn't a particularly revolutionary one. Quest mechanics are usually pretty simple in being Kill X, Fetch Y, or Go to Z with possible combinations of the three, dating all the way back to dial-in BBS games or even MUDs. There will be stats. There will be character growth. The details will vary, sure, and combat systems (arguably the root of all MMOs) can vary between slow and fast pacing. People too quickly jump to the "clone" argument thinking someone talking similarly of it believes that WoW, or whatever is being cloned, invented everything like concepts of difficulty or light death penalties. It didn't.

There's an old saying. "Artists are thieves." Games are an expression of art, of entertainment. Developers steal ideas from each other all of the time, usually what they see has worked while omitting what hasn't. They'll slap a new coat of paint on it and even try to pass it off as innovative or whatever advertising hogwash might draw in people who don't know better. Without a jump in technology (I'm thinking like .HACK level of interface and sensory immersion), I can't see the MMO genre making drastic leaps of innovation. You can't reasonably expect greatness at a MMO's release, especially comparing to older ones, but simply a strong foundation that can be built upon.


Agreed. In fact, what made WoW so successful was their ability to steal the right ideas (WASD+Mouse movement, instanced raid content, solo playability, etc).

MMORPGs cannot be so innovative that they escape having a death mechanic altogether. However where they can differ and be innovative is in how the death mechanic is implemented.

MMORPGs cannot be so innovative that they can substitute something for the story or lore. But they can be innovative in the story's plot, the characters, etc.

When I say innovation, this is what I meant.
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#230 Jan 26 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:

So wait, you're just arguing semantics, now?

Alright, cool. Glad we figured that out. Go ahead and stop posting now.


The core of your argument was that death penalties were no longer the norm, so get with the program. I said that death penalties are in fact the norm. If I'm not mistaken, that's a direct contradiction, not a semantics argument.
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#231 Jan 26 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:

I know what your point was. My point was that that's a blanket statement that is not even nearly always true.

Producers do not know a lot more about good game design than a gamer does. Why would you think that they do? What about those individuals grants them some keen insight into the world of games that any other dedicated gamer wouldn't possess? There really isn't one. There are as many bad producers with lacking design philosophies as there are gamers who don't know what they want. Even those who are supposed to be the very best in the world at what they do.

And if you need an example of just how true that is, I have two words for you: Microsoft Vista.


For one, they have detailed logs and statistics of people playing their game, and possibly other games. They also have access to monitoring the behavior of multiple types of gamers.

If you leave gamers to design games, they will design a game that they personally want to play, without respect to the opinions of others.

A gamer is really only qualified in the sense that they know what they want personally, but cannot really speak for other people, as what Aurelious wants does not represent me.

A developer or game producer on the other hand, can take a more holistic approach to game design.
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#232 Jan 26 2010 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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A lot of people are discontent with Aion's death penalty. Not only is there experience loss, but there's a weakness timer that builds with each death unless you pay to get it lifted (and some EXP refunded) at a Soul Healer. As a level 50 Gladiator, and about 19m EXP in the hole from deaths thanks to lazy healers and me trying to save people with my Provoke, it costs me 1.07 million kinah to remove my soul sickness. Apparently this number can exceed 2 million.

I don't care what the Aion pros say, that's a **** of a lot of money. For me soloing, that's at least 12 hours of grinding unless I get lucky. My above debt was accumulated in about 3 hours of play in an endgame instance, perhaps a dozen deaths total. Now comes the point where I could've told these people to **** off and they're noobs, but I had something I needed to do there and I'm not exactly playing the most popular class for groups.

This experience would've been a lot less souring if maybe I had to pay 200k. I still haven't paid for a SH, though. People can suffer through my five minutes of being diminished if they don't wanna work on keeping me alive while I do my thing.
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#233 Jan 26 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
For one, they have detailed logs and statistics of people playing their game, and possibly other games. They also have access to monitoring the behavior of multiple types of gamers.

If you leave gamers to design games, they will design a game that they personally want to play, without respect to the opinions of others.

A gamer is really only qualified in the sense that they know what they want personally, but cannot really speak for other people, as what Aurelious wants does not represent me.

A developer or game producer on the other hand, can take a more holistic approach to game design.


The descriptive statistics that SOME online games use are not very sophisticated. They generally report on the kind of demographic data that you would find in the Vanadiel census. WoW may be a very rare exception-- I don't know what kind of information they might collect with the software they install on your PC (aside from illegal apps you may be running).

Most people are not that different when it comes to their basic psychology, so an average person who is an experienced gamer who spends any amount of time thinking about what aspects of games they like will have a pretty good idea of what an average person wants. This is especially true for the important abstracts of game design.
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#234AureliusSir the Irrelevant, Posted: Jan 26 2010 at 7:56 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Should be fairly obvious that he's referring to xp loss, but I reckon when you've dug yourself a hole and refuse to get out of it, you'll cling to whatever you can get. Theo doesn't need me defending him, though...if you want to stir up that hornet's nest, by all means go right ahead.
#235 Jan 26 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:

1. Death penalty is the norm. Aion for example, WoW for example. Not having any penalty at all is not a norm for an MMORPG. I've already discussed why I think death penalty is not a bad idea, and I'll leave it as my opinion, nothing more.


Should be fairly obvious that he's referring to xp loss, but I reckon when you've dug yourself a hole and refuse to get out of it, you'll cling to whatever you can get. Theo doesn't need me defending him, though...if you want to stir up that hornet's nest, by all means go right ahead.

More to the point I had in mind...

Stop it with the "lulz u just want teh WoW clone" bullsh*t already. You do understand the difference between an isolated concept and the big picture, right? I believe I've suggested to you on a number of occasions (in this thread and elsewhere) to think big picture. Broaden your point of view, as it were. Yet you still keep coming back with this narrow, ignorant nonsense.

You do yourself no credit. At all. Quit while you're ahead (or at least not so far behind that you have to start kicking your own ***).


That's nice of you to defend your buddy. Except you have no idea what you are talking about. If he is referring to XP loss, Aion has that too, but he wasn't.

Secondly, you sputtering about mechanics that mimic WoW while denouncing anybody who suggests anything otherwise is not an isolated incident. If you attempt to debate this, it will end in fail
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#236 Jan 26 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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odinpingpong wrote:
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:

1. Death penalty is the norm. Aion for example, WoW for example. Not having any penalty at all is not a norm for an MMORPG. I've already discussed why I think death penalty is not a bad idea, and I'll leave it as my opinion, nothing more.


Should be fairly obvious that he's referring to xp loss, but I reckon when you've dug yourself a hole and refuse to get out of it, you'll cling to whatever you can get. Theo doesn't need me defending him, though...if you want to stir up that hornet's nest, by all means go right ahead.

More to the point I had in mind...

Stop it with the "lulz u just want teh WoW clone" bullsh*t already. You do understand the difference between an isolated concept and the big picture, right? I believe I've suggested to you on a number of occasions (in this thread and elsewhere) to think big picture. Broaden your point of view, as it were. Yet you still keep coming back with this narrow, ignorant nonsense.

You do yourself no credit. At all. Quit while you're ahead (or at least not so far behind that you have to start kicking your own ***).


That's nice of you to defend your buddy. Except you have no idea what you are talking about. If he is referring to XP loss, Aion has that too, but he wasn't.

Secondly, you sputtering about mechanics that mimic WoW while denouncing anybody who suggests anything otherwise is not an isolated incident. If you attempt to debate this, it will end in fail

Actually, I was referring to XP loss.

BTW, Aurelius isn't my buddy. In fact, I'd go ahead and say that he's the complete opposite of my buddy. I think he's a moron, and he thinks that I'm a colossal douche bag on a scale that's rarely seen on this Earth.

It just so happens that on this subject (and on what works in MMOs), we agree.

I've also probably played more MMOs than you have, so I feel qualified to speak about what works the best in an MMO. Most of the people posting about not wanting a death penalty have probably played multiple MMOs as well, while the select few that want a death penalty have probably only played games like FFXI and Aion (which I had no idea that they had an XP loss penalty).

Death penalties that seriously impact play (such as XP loss, not like minor durability loss) are stupid. It doesn't promote trying harder content until you can handle it easily; it stagnates games.

It also doesn't add to the challenge of the game. It just adds inconvenience and a time-sink. Personally, there are a lot of other things I'd rather be doing than farming XP on my main so that I can raid.

Just saying; every single person I played FFXI with has said that they hated the XP loss mechanic. It's stupid and pointless.

A death mechanic is a sure-fire way to drive people away from FFXIV.
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#237 Jan 27 2010 at 12:15 AM Rating: Decent
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You know, it actually reminds me of something a professor was commenting on today. He was talking about the reason why there is a lesser incidence of adult smoking and drunk driving now. It's not really because people are better educated-- people have known the dangers of both of these behaviors for a very long time. In the vast majority of cases, what has terminated these behaviors has been the severity of consequences and the inconvenience they impose. You can't smoke wherever you want anymore-- you have to go out of your way, pay for the highly taxed cigarettes, and often go out in the freezing cold to smoke. And the consequences for drunk driving are incredibly taxing.

This is really such a fundamental thing, that I'm bewildered that anyone doesn't fully grasp it. If you punish people for doing something, they will generally stop doing it (operant conditioning, anyone?). Punishing death may be fine when it's not an inevitability, but when it is, that tells people that they're being punished just for playing the game.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#238AureliusSir the Irrelevant, Posted: Jan 27 2010 at 1:42 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Big picture. Stop being stupid. I'm giving you credit that you're capable of more. Please don't prove me wrong.
#239 Jan 27 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Big picture.


If we are talking about the big picture then I can say that death penalty was SE's way to enforce parting when FFXI started, once the idea of parting stabilized then the penalty was reduced (less TNL exp thus less exp lost , less exp lost on R1, ToAU camps and easy exp gain , besieged FoV and campaign) and solo playing was allowed to a limit.

If solo play was easier from the start then ppl would end up soloing and hardly parting, Since the developers built this game as party base game it was needed to put some restrictions on solo play. (Just my interpretation on the matter base on understanding on Japanese culture where one see himself as part of the team).
Most other games suggest solo play and ignores group play until endgame. different culture , different preference (ex. ppl who like RPGs like Fables as you can be good/evil , and the ppl who like linear RPGs like most final fantasy games).

Augment system was another gray area between players (who demanded some form of control over Augmented Equips and developers who introduced the system in order to remove items from the market and help crafters), If they blindly followed what players want then crafters' profit (myself included) will vanish again, while I'm not sure about other crafters, my profit turned x3-4 of what it was pre-Augment system. Alchemy couldnt be saved though.

The big picture... when considered you should check everyone effected , being it a player:
casual/hardcore.
exp/event.
solo/party.
farmer/crafter.



Losing exp due to others mistake is like losing your orb due to someone else is mistake , FFXI suggested group play so ppl learn how to play as a team (In concept at least if you don't agree with implementation) to limit the amount of death that may happen on later stages ppl should adapt being as a team. My last LS didnt die much in dyna while going for full clean , guess I balanced my pull speed ase on how active the group is at each time , MP amount and kill speed, ppl trusted that I'll hardly bring what they couldnt take and I trust that they will kill whatever I'll bring.



Just my personal take on things. just seeing the big picture from different PoV.
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#240 Jan 27 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Since we're talking about a PvE world, I don't see the problem with being knocked unconscious at 0 HP until combat ends, at which point you can choose to recover with 1 HP/MP or teleport home, neither option incurring an extra penalty. To avoid aggro from reviving on the spot, you could probably recover at a zone line or some arbitrary checkpoint on the map. Of course you can still be revived during battle given the usual methods, but the only real punishment death should have is that you are taken out of the current battle, providing an extra burden to your team to revive you. Once you're outside of battle, there's really no reason to have weakness or some other penalty. Say what you will about death penalties being a learning experience, encouraging better gameplay; in my experience, all this leads to is people dropping parties the instant anyone dies, wasting all the time it took for you to get that party together. If someone takes the NDP for granted and just rushes to their death without bothering to strategize or listen to party leaders, they are the type of person who wouldn't belong in a party even with a death penalty.
#241 Jan 27 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
odinpingpong wrote:
That's nice of you to defend your buddy. Except you have no idea what you are talking about. If he is referring to XP loss, Aion has that too, but he wasn't.


Apparently he was. Don't you get tired of being wrong?


Don't you? (Warhammer RMT, 75% decline in FFXI)

Quote:
Quote:
Secondly, you sputtering about mechanics that mimic WoW while denouncing anybody who suggests anything otherwise is not an isolated incident. If you attempt to debate this, it will end in fail


Big picture. Stop being stupid. I'm giving you credit that you're capable of more. Please don't prove me wrong.

Your response is the response of every other mouthy scrub who comes here with dated ideas about mechanics design and nothing to back them up in the context of what SE has said they're aiming for with FFXIV. So go ahead and settle to that level of argument if you need to...Deadgye hasn't been around in a few days so I need a new source of salty moron tears to sustain me.

Edited, Jan 27th 2010 12:59am by AureliusSir


I find your machismo style tantrums amusing.

XP loss on death, no I don't like it, but it did force me to play the game a different way with better preparation and more thought out strategies. The big picture, I enjoyed FFXI more because of it.
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#242AureliusSir the Irrelevant, Posted: Jan 27 2010 at 6:11 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes, your inept tears are nourishing.
#243 Jan 27 2010 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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2,169 posts
AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Do you need your wife to deny you *** for a month before you mow the lawn, too?


Isn't that why all husbands even bother to mow lawns in the first place?
____________________________
FFXIV - Currently Playing on Selbina Server
Name: Itachi Akatsuki (THM)
LS: UnitedBBQ

www.guildwork.com - best guildhosting site period

FFXI - Pingpong - Retired 2007
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?6988
75rng | 75nin | 75blm | working on RDM
RNG Gration solo: http://pingpongwww.livejournal.com/15532.html
#244AureliusSir the Irrelevant, Posted: Jan 27 2010 at 6:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Some spouses/partners rely on witty banter and intelligent discourse to encourage their significant other to consent to "relations." In your case, I can see why mowing the lawn might be your best option.
#245 Jan 28 2010 at 3:25 AM Rating: Good
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372 posts
Quote:
Maybe it was Aion that had the massive RMT issues. One of the newer MMOs did. Either way, Warhammer isn't struggling because the devs don't beat the sh*t out of their players for dying. That's a pretty safe bet.


I think you probably do mean Aion. I think why was because it wa sa well established game in Korea before it hit the western markets, and while they have a clear policy regarding RMT, those guys are quite safe to sit their characters in Sanctum and other areas, advertising the site selling the game currency. I reported at least three of these characters and days later they were still there. I provided pos and name and reason why but nothing happened. Days later they were still sat there with their shop message still displaying how much Kinah was on this site. It was pathetic.

Whats more, a few weeks down the line and they actually make it harder for anyone to blacklist anyone. They also make sure that in certain areas you can not mute local area chat and have to see four-five different web sites being advertised...wait, spammed in the chats.

As for WAR I can honestly tell you (why I stopped playing at least) was that its to easy to reach cap and there's absolutely nothing to do when you get there. All you can do is get better equipment and take part in terrible laggy PvP. If you died? Well, just run back asap and get back into the lines ready to be smoked again by Pit Of Shades or Rain Of Fire, depending on which faction you were on. It got really boring after a while. There was actually a death penalty to WAR - each death took 10% off your health and had to wait x amount of time for it to return. If you died again before this was up, which was very easy to do if you were taking part in a massive PvP raid, you lost a further 10%, forcing you to either die quicker the next time, or pay an NPC to be healed. Time and Money sink ftl.
#246 Jan 28 2010 at 4:44 AM Rating: Decent
Falasi wrote:
Quote:
Big picture.


If we are talking about the big picture then I can say that death penalty was SE's way to enforce parting when FFXI started, once the idea of parting stabilized then the penalty was reduced (less TNL exp thus less exp lost , less exp lost on R1, ToAU camps and easy exp gain , besieged FoV and campaign) and solo playing was allowed to a limit.


XP loss on death had nothing to do with encouraging people to group. At NA release and for almost the entire time I played, it wasn't worth it to solo past about level 12-15 because the way the mobs were tuned beyond that range made killing mobs capable of granting worthwhile xp functionally impossible. BST could do it. DRG/WHM could do it to a lesser extent. Eventually BLU started doing it. It wasn't until after I left the game and /DNC and FoV came out that concept of solo xp became even remotely viable.

Quote:
If solo play was easier from the start then ppl would end up soloing and hardly parting, Since the developers built this game as party base game it was needed to put some restrictions on solo play. (Just my interpretation on the matter base on understanding on Japanese culture where one see himself as part of the team).


Actually, they don't. Group play in WoW throughout all level ranges is at an all time high right now thanks to the new cross realm LFG system. LOTRO featured enough missions and elite areas within zones that there was ample reason to spend time in groups. The main thing was that if you couldn't find a group to run the content you wanted to run or you just didn't feel like grouping, you could still run out and progress your character at a very reasonable pace by yourself.

Quote:
Most other games suggest solo play and ignores group play until endgame. different culture , different preference (ex. ppl who like RPGs like Fables as you can be good/evil , and the ppl who like linear RPGs like most final fantasy games).


They don't suggest anything. They simply make both options viable and leave it up to their customers to decide.


Edited, Jan 28th 2010 2:44am by AureliusSir
#247 Jan 28 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
XP loss on death had nothing to do with encouraging people to group. At NA release and for almost the entire time I played, it wasn't worth it to solo past about level 12-15 because the way the mobs were tuned beyond that range made killing mobs capable of granting worthwhile xp functionally impossible. BST could do it. DRG/WHM could do it to a lesser extent. Eventually BLU started doing it. It wasn't until after I left the game and /DNC and FoV came out that concept of solo xp became even remotely viable.


And thus making soloing hard and grouping is the only way to get worthwhile exp .. aka encouraging people to group by discouraging them to solo. Your chance of dying while soloing is far greater then while in party , same goes for Exp lose (as you end up getting Raise, while in solo play you'll have to pay for it in the form of CPs.. or whatever it was).

Quote:
Actually, they don't. Group play in WoW throughout all level ranges is at an all time high right now thanks to the new cross realm LFG system. LOTRO featured enough missions and elite areas within zones that there was ample reason to spend time in groups. The main thing was that if you couldn't find a group to run the content you wanted to run or you just didn't feel like grouping, you could still run out and progress your character at a very reasonable pace by yourself.


As for WoW and as you said its a new LFG system, added after the playerbase already built an understanding of the game as Solo-Exp mode , adding the mechanism to help people who want to group is the reverse of what SE did , adding/making soloing easier. Its also known that a player will choose to solo if grouping has no significant advantages (since grouping require time). I cant comment on LOTRO since I didnt do much research on 1st targets players and game changes (if any happened).

Quote:
They don't suggest anything. They simply make both options viable and leave it up to their customers to decide.


Sure thing but remember that FFXI was introduced in Japan 1st then a year and a half later to North America. Studying your primary target (Japanese players base on culture) is what I think happened and in result to that the game was made as an answer to primary target's preference. If I'm ganna design something I'll make it work perfect for the local market , the same mentality used by Blizzard when they designed WOW (size of the local market differ though).

Just explaining my analysis on the big picture(FFXI) and understanding to the whole thing, we may disagree but respect each other opinion (wishful thinking ;p )
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#248 Jan 28 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
Falasi wrote:
Quote:
XP loss on death had nothing to do with encouraging people to group. At NA release and for almost the entire time I played, it wasn't worth it to solo past about level 12-15 because the way the mobs were tuned beyond that range made killing mobs capable of granting worthwhile xp functionally impossible. BST could do it. DRG/WHM could do it to a lesser extent. Eventually BLU started doing it. It wasn't until after I left the game and /DNC and FoV came out that concept of solo xp became even remotely viable.


And thus making soloing hard and grouping is the only way to get worthwhile exp .. aka encouraging people to group by discouraging them to solo. Your chance of dying while soloing is far greater then while in party , same goes for Exp lose (as you end up getting Raise, while in solo play you'll have to pay for it in the form of CPs.. or whatever it was).


"Encouraging" grouping would have been making solo play viable from the beginning with better rewards for group play. When one option is not viable, you aren't encouraging the second option...you're restricting the first option and forcing the second. When you're forcing something, you don't have to include penalties to encourage anything.
#249 Jan 28 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
"Encouraging" grouping would have been making solo play viable from the beginning with better rewards for group play. When one option is not viable, you aren't encouraging the second option...you're restricting the first option and forcing the second. When you're forcing something, you don't have to include penalties to encourage anything.


Enforcement on relation to effectiveness sure , but it wasn't like whenever you try to solo; a GM will send you back into city , thus the option was always there but at a price , being it gils/time/effectiveness or switching to BST (later at NA release)all to assure effective group play.
A penalty was just a check, to make solo hard thus not preferred, random not thoughtful setups hard thus also not preferred, Finally good setup (on relation to what developers design that is) perfect thus preferred.

Think more about it as whenever Software developers want to design something they ask users for requirement (in FFXI case and JPs: group play rather then solo) not technical specifications most of the time. (FFXI: what I wrote about solo/group).
Just clarifying mo PoV not trying to make anyone buy it or something.
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#250 Jan 28 2010 at 7:29 PM Rating: Decent
Falasi wrote:
Quote:
"Encouraging" grouping would have been making solo play viable from the beginning with better rewards for group play. When one option is not viable, you aren't encouraging the second option...you're restricting the first option and forcing the second. When you're forcing something, you don't have to include penalties to encourage anything.


Enforcement on relation to effectiveness sure , but it wasn't like whenever you try to solo; a GM will send you back into city , thus the option was always there but at a price , being it gils/time/effectiveness or switching to BST (later at NA release)all to assure effective group play.
A penalty was just a check, to make solo hard thus not preferred, random not thoughtful setups hard thus also not preferred, Finally good setup (on relation to what developers design that is) perfect thus preferred.

Think more about it as whenever Software developers want to design something they ask users for requirement (in FFXI case and JPs: group play rather then solo) not technical specifications most of the time. (FFXI: what I wrote about solo/group).
Just clarifying mo PoV not trying to make anyone buy it or something.


Okay, since you seem to be stuck, let me try an analogy.

Car A has no engine or transmission. It has four wheels. That is all.

Car B has a good working engine and transmission and four wheels.

If you've got to go 100 miles with either car A or car B, do you need to be encouraged to drive car B over pushing car A, or are you going to do it on your own with or without encouragement?

If option A is not viable, you don't need to encourage people to choose option B. Does that make sense now?
#251 Jan 28 2010 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
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AureliusSir the Irrelevant wrote:
Falasi wrote:
Quote:
"Encouraging" grouping would have been making solo play viable from the beginning with better rewards for group play. When one option is not viable, you aren't encouraging the second option...you're restricting the first option and forcing the second. When you're forcing something, you don't have to include penalties to encourage anything.


Enforcement on relation to effectiveness sure , but it wasn't like whenever you try to solo; a GM will send you back into city , thus the option was always there but at a price , being it gils/time/effectiveness or switching to BST (later at NA release)all to assure effective group play.
A penalty was just a check, to make solo hard thus not preferred, random not thoughtful setups hard thus also not preferred, Finally good setup (on relation to what developers design that is) perfect thus preferred.

Think more about it as whenever Software developers want to design something they ask users for requirement (in FFXI case and JPs: group play rather then solo) not technical specifications most of the time. (FFXI: what I wrote about solo/group).
Just clarifying mo PoV not trying to make anyone buy it or something.


Okay, since you seem to be stuck, let me try an analogy.

Car A has no engine or transmission. It has four wheels. That is all.

Car B has a good working engine and transmission and four wheels.

If you've got to go 100 miles with either car A or car B, do you need to be encouraged to drive car B over pushing car A, or are you going to do it on your own with or without encouragement?

If option A is not viable, you don't need to encourage people to choose option B. Does that make sense now?

I'm pushing car A! Smiley: yippee
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